Shared this vid with a friend who plays horns. He had a couple of interesting comments: Hearing all of the examples is fun. Another way some composers use to get a brighter tutti horn sound (cuivre) is add a low trumpet in the same octave. Also gets you through longer lines - you can't play flat out cuivre for very many measures. Well, some of us can't! BTW, the standard high/low/high/low seating in the horn section comes from the valveless horn days when you had, say, a pair of horns in A and another pair of horns in D.
These are exactly the types of videos I need. The ways the instruments of the orchestra interact with one another is one of the more tricky areas of composition for me. Thank you Mr. Thompson!
Okay, das ist jetzt ein später Kommentar. Dieses Video ist richtig, richtig klasse. Einen Einblick zu bekommen, wie Brasses zu kombinieren sind finde ich super spannend. Vielen Dank dafür !!
Some very useful tips and information there. Just two points to make. For real musicians, don't forget that for low notes on bass trombone and tuba, it takes time for the notes to speak. The musicians take this into account but it can be difficult in fast passages. The other point is that there are various mutes which trombones, like trumpets can use to alter the sound and volume of their instruments. I found from writing music for 5 or 6 trombones and rhythm section that the most useful mutes are cup, bucket, plunger and straight. Cups soften the sound and can be combined with much softer instruments like flutes and clarinets. Buckets also reduce the brassiness and volume and widen the sound. Plungers, used a lot in jazz, are useful as closed plungers can give an extremely soft almost stifled sound - very useful if there is a passage where muted trombones are followed by unmuted ones. It takes time to take mutes off and put them on. To be honest, I never liked straight mutes. I don't know what classical composers have against brass mutes. They should listen to some top-notch big bands to see what they've been missing.
I copied this from another thread, because I think it explains the horn arrangement better than I ever could. The reason is historical: horns 1&2 used to be in a different transposition than 3&4, and composers tended to have a high and a low horn in each transposition. For example, horns 1 and 2 might be in F, and 1 would take higher notes than 2, while horns 3 and 4 might be in G, with 3 taking the higher notes. Modern horns are always in F, but 1&3 taking higher parts than 2&4 has stuck around.
WOW. I am glad I found this. I always feel inadequately prepared to arrange horns. This presentation makes a lot of sense, and makes me want more Spitfire samples to get "just that" sound.
This teaching is beyond the four corners of a classroom. You can read treatises on orchestration but this one is from the University of Hard Knocks! More power to your youtube channel Paul!
Paul, thanks for this Video. I am just restarting doing composing with midi and vst, long after the first time I worked with an Atari and later with Cubase in 1986 and the following decade. Today, there is the whole world of sounds in our hands.
I never thought the day would come when you would so brazenly (and yet, so subtly) acknowledge the 'very excited' joke. On behalf of the entire composers' community, we all feel validated. I feel silly for not having previously known you could combine 3 tenor trombones with 2 bass and 1 contra. I always thought there was some sort of professional standard dictating it was one or the other. Very cool.
Great I was fiddling around with unison horn. No strings. And when you added a cello, WOWSER! Thus, I am seeking a lonely sound. And I ignored the cello. So back to work! Thanks for sharing!
This is pretty remarkable, Paul. Extremely practical, essential advice delivered concisely. I have pretty bad adult ADHD and can struggle with long videos, but you had me totally focused the whole way through. Thanks for this!
Just to add to the high/low horn discussion (by a horn player): Back in the day (before valves) horn players used to specialise in playing either high or low register (using larger and smaller mouthpieces, which makes quite a difference) so horn players typically appeared in pairs. If you wanted more horn sound, you hired another pair, which would be also high/low, so 3 often played above 2. As has been said elsewhere, sometimes the second pair would be crooked in a different key so more notes were available.
My understanding regarding the horn part distribution (1 & 3 being high, 2 & 4 being low) is that historically you could have 2 high-low pairs playing in different keys (no valves yet, so they'd be using crooks for different keys). Seating also can be adjusted by part (line of 4 or 2x2).
Another amazing session!! Thank You for taking the time to do this for us. Every video I learn something new or just hearing a small tip that sparks a great idea. Thank You for being our unofficial instructor...I have a whole page of lessons I look forward to every day. You are a very great person for doing this!! Endless Thanks.....
Many thanks Paul, so helpful as low brass can be a very tricky area for new composers like me to get our heads around. Very practical and clear. Thank you.
I love your approach to exploring combinations - I know I should probably find it straight forward to do the same but its a bit like what they say about great philosophy - “it’s obvious once spoken” - the genius is in the speaking. Thanks Paul.
This is actually the hardest thing for me to master. Writing music is no problem. But combining the timbre, characters etc of all the instruments is real science.
Loving that T-Shirt and the restraint in choice of words in the intro; it seemed you were approaching some excitement in the outro, but still managed to get away without mentioning the word. I'd love to know who decided to get you that T-Shirt. Sadly this still hasn't really helped me to write more Tuba parts; I seem to delegate it mostly to Oompa chords with Horns (maybe there is a bit of my German blood showing) and occasionally below some lovely horn chords, but generally for the more full on contemporary sound it seems to be all about getting as many trombones (and related families) moving as much air as possible.
Excellent & usefull video! A reassuring view: The red exclamation mark in the Paul's own BBC SO plugin. It happens even to the best! 😀 And yes, at 30'55'', Bimbo Jet intro played bells up is a must! 😎
Yes previously - but the setup means I’m a bit far from the RE20 - so I’m using the TF51 now. Really great on voice and very close to the sound of the Elam251!
Absolutely love these videos, very informative and detailed, thank you for doing this ! And by the way, this is also a great demonstration how awesome the ,, old '' Symphonic Brass library is !
Paul this is beyond awesome thank you soooooooo much. This puts everything in perspective. Thank you again for you contributions to our understanding of orchestration. Take care Tony
One explanation I've heard for the horn parts 2nd 3rd inversion is that it dates to handwritten parts, with a 1st/2nd page and a 3rd/4th page, and for denser harmonies it is easier to read if the notes are farther apart - your eyes are less distracted by the line not particularly near yours ... but that feels old wives tale-y
These are a great set of videos, thank you. One thing that would really help me is a pdf of the different arrangements so that I can follow as you play. I have tried to create a cheat sheet for myself but I think that I missed some steps.
Thank you for sharing this. I got some fresh perspectives on some different options that I might not have considered or stumbled upon before. I enjoyed the lessons!
For Horns the 1,3 2,4 thing is a historical remnant. 1,2 were in one key 3,4 were in another key. The odds had higher and evens had lower. It just stuck around.
Thanks, very informative! So you often times double the same melody on brass (like violins and horns playing the same)? I always do separate movements in different direction then the string... maybe that’s why my mixes sound cluttered often times I guess! Learning it
Thanks Paul that was an excellent education piece, so well explained and demonstrated. It raised one question, that is how do you mic a French horn when sampling, does the close mic face the player or the bell?
@5:14 Paul, do we ever get the additional mics for the SSO? When they were released I hadn’t got the money to buy them :( Wonderful content, thanks for sharing. I love these combinations very much.
@@r.kapaun01 Thanks for your reply. I have referred to the previously published Mic Positions that have been temporarily withdrawn from the market. They were called Expansion Packs.
![[TH] 2024 PMGC League | Survival Stage วันที่ 1 | PUBG MOBILE Global Championship](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FVFT-PFwU80/mqdefault.jpg)
Here for your shirt!!! :))))
THe shirt was a great - "tone setter" for the video Paul -- really clearly explained orchestration - well done!
Thanks Darin!
Omg! only just noticed the 'very excited' t-shirt. Absolutely genius.
Shared this vid with a friend who plays horns. He had a couple of interesting comments:
Hearing all of the examples is fun. Another way some composers use to get a brighter tutti horn sound (cuivre) is add a low trumpet in the same octave. Also gets you through longer lines - you can't play flat out cuivre for very many measures. Well, some of us can't!
BTW, the standard high/low/high/low seating in the horn section comes from the valveless horn days when you had, say, a pair of horns in A and another pair of horns in D.
Thanks for this info Steve!
Paul’s shirt should be part of the yearly tombola prizes 👏👏😉
Love it!! 😂
Exactly the kind of stuff that enables this hobbyist to leap ahead. Sincere comprehensive and gentle delivery. And the shirt! Tee hee
These are exactly the types of videos I need. The ways the instruments of the orchestra interact with one another is one of the more tricky areas of composition for me. Thank you Mr. Thompson!
Glad it was helpful!
Tuba = woolly mammoth / contrabass trombone = dinosaur...may have sounded silly coming out, Paul, but it’s a metaphor that works for me. Thank you!
Okay, das ist jetzt ein später Kommentar. Dieses Video ist richtig, richtig klasse. Einen Einblick zu bekommen, wie Brasses zu kombinieren sind finde ich super spannend. Vielen Dank dafür !!
Some very useful tips and information there. Just two points to make. For real musicians, don't forget that for low notes on bass trombone and tuba, it takes time for the notes to speak. The musicians take this into account but it can be difficult in fast passages. The other point is that there are various mutes which trombones, like trumpets can use to alter the sound and volume of their instruments. I found from writing music for 5 or 6 trombones and rhythm section that the most useful mutes are cup, bucket, plunger and straight. Cups soften the sound and can be combined with much softer instruments like flutes and clarinets. Buckets also reduce the brassiness and volume and widen the sound. Plungers, used a lot in jazz, are useful as closed plungers can give an extremely soft almost stifled sound - very useful if there is a passage where muted trombones are followed by unmuted ones. It takes time to take mutes off and put them on. To be honest, I never liked straight mutes. I don't know what classical composers have against brass mutes. They should listen to some top-notch big bands to see what they've been missing.
Very Insightful, Paul! A true educator dedicated to helping others!
Thanks Louie!
I copied this from another thread, because I think it explains the horn arrangement better than I ever could. The reason is historical: horns 1&2 used to be in a different transposition than 3&4, and composers tended to have a high and a low horn in each transposition. For example, horns 1 and 2 might be in F, and 1 would take higher notes than 2, while horns 3 and 4 might be in G, with 3 taking the higher notes. Modern horns are always in F, but 1&3 taking higher parts than 2&4 has stuck around.
Also, back in the day, the horns had no valves, so one pair of players might be playing in one key, while the other pair were changing crooks.
WOW. I am glad I found this. I always feel inadequately prepared to arrange horns. This presentation makes a lot of sense, and makes me want more Spitfire samples to get "just that" sound.
This teaching is beyond the four corners of a classroom. You can read treatises on orchestration but this one is from the University of Hard Knocks! More power to your youtube channel Paul!
Paul, thanks for this Video. I am just restarting doing composing with midi and vst, long after the first time I worked with an Atari and later with Cubase in 1986 and the following decade. Today, there is the whole world of sounds in our hands.
I never thought the day would come when you would so brazenly (and yet, so subtly) acknowledge the 'very excited' joke. On behalf of the entire composers' community, we all feel validated.
I feel silly for not having previously known you could combine 3 tenor trombones with 2 bass and 1 contra. I always thought there was some sort of professional standard dictating it was one or the other. Very cool.
Great I was fiddling around with unison horn. No strings. And when you added a cello, WOWSER! Thus, I am seeking a lonely sound. And I ignored the cello. So back to work! Thanks for sharing!
This is pretty remarkable, Paul. Extremely practical, essential advice delivered concisely. I have pretty bad adult ADHD and can struggle with long videos, but you had me totally focused the whole way through. Thanks for this!
Glad to hear that Vic and thanks for your encouragement!
Thank you Paul. I really appreciate your insights.
Really helpful and great to hear the different examples...thank you, Paul!
Just to add to the high/low horn discussion (by a horn player): Back in the day (before valves) horn players used to specialise in playing either high or low register (using larger and smaller mouthpieces, which makes quite a difference) so horn players typically appeared in pairs. If you wanted more horn sound, you hired another pair, which would be also high/low, so 3 often played above 2. As has been said elsewhere, sometimes the second pair would be crooked in a different key so more notes were available.
Thats very interesting thank you for that info!
Love the tshirt. Great video! Thanks Paul.
I lost it when I saw the shirt...
These orchestration tutorials are very helpful. Thank you!
Thank you, Paul- This is the best class on TH-cam!
Superb! That’s given me a lot to think about
Thanks Robert!
My understanding regarding the horn part distribution (1 & 3 being high, 2 & 4 being low) is that historically you could have 2 high-low pairs playing in different keys (no valves yet, so they'd be using crooks for different keys). Seating also can be adjusted by part (line of 4 or 2x2).
I'm a BBCSO Core user and I'll try out these ideas for my March composition. Thanks for the video 👍👍
I am loving the t-shirt, and excellent insights. Thanks.
Thanks Paul. Appreciate the detail.
Thanks Greg!
Great information, Paul - thanks for sharing!
Thanks Ed!
Thanks very much Paul! For me as a budding composer this series is extremely helpful! Looking forward to seeing the next episode. Cheers Paul! 👏😀
Late to the party but your shirt is first class, friend. Love it!
"Best ways to voice" is one of my favourite things on TH-cam. Always interesting, always inciteful and best of all really useful. Thank you so much.
Thanks very much, Paul. Compelling and instructive as always!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Among my favorite type of videos! Awesome! More more more! 🙏🏻
Really Excited too about Paul’s new haircut. 😂
Cut it myself with clippers!!
@@PaulThomsonMusic self-cut? Wow. I don’t dare to go there: at the moment I’m not interested in becoming a single dad. 😂
Another amazing session!! Thank You for taking the time to do this for us. Every video I learn something new or just hearing a small tip that sparks a great idea. Thank You for being our unofficial instructor...I have a whole page of lessons I look forward to every day. You are a very great person for doing this!! Endless Thanks.....
Thanks for the kind words Kristopher!
Thanks Paul for a wonderful exposition. I hope you do more of these for other instruments in the orchestra.
Thanks David! More to come!
Many thanks Paul, so helpful as low brass can be a very tricky area for new composers like me to get our heads around. Very practical and clear. Thank you.
I love your approach to exploring combinations - I know I should probably find it straight forward to do the same but its a bit like what they say about great philosophy - “it’s obvious once spoken” - the genius is in the speaking. Thanks Paul.
Great as usual! Can’t wait to see the video about trumpets!
Thanks! Coming soon!
Brilliant information. Thats gonna help me a lot with my compositions, thanks Paul!
Thanks Johno!
Paul, these videos are awesome. Please keep doing them. Big thank you!
Thank you Paul! Hugs from Brazil!
Back at you!
This was top-notch. Thank you
This is actually the hardest thing for me to master. Writing music is no problem. But combining the timbre, characters etc of all the instruments is real science.
Great video ! Always very excited by your new video ! 😜
Thank you!
Really helpful paul , thank you
This was a great video Paul. Thanks!
Loving that T-Shirt and the restraint in choice of words in the intro; it seemed you were approaching some excitement in the outro, but still managed to get away without mentioning the word.
I'd love to know who decided to get you that T-Shirt.
Sadly this still hasn't really helped me to write more Tuba parts; I seem to delegate it mostly to Oompa chords with Horns (maybe there is a bit of my German blood showing) and occasionally below some lovely horn chords, but generally for the more full on contemporary sound it seems to be all about getting as many trombones (and related families) moving as much air as possible.
I think for the modern sound - 6 bones for every tuba!! That will keep you safely away from oompa!
Very thought provoking.
Excellent & usefull video!
A reassuring view: The red exclamation mark in the Paul's own BBC SO plugin. It happens even to the best! 😀
And yes, at 30'55'', Bimbo Jet intro played bells up is a must! 😎
😂
Brilliant stuff, Paul - thank you! I too would love to see more of these.
Excellent exploration and tutorial - thanks!
You're very welcome!
Paul, Thank you very much for this. It is really interesting and extremely helpful.
Roy
Thanks Roy!
Hell yea my friend using Aston Mics.
I recently was accepted to their Artist Artist Panel.
Excellent work mate
Thanks! I do love the Astons - although under that pop shield is a telefunken - the budget 51
@@PaulThomsonMusic I was just ready to ask what mic you're using there... sounds lovely!
Before that one you used an RE20?
Yes previously - but the setup means I’m a bit far from the RE20 - so I’m using the TF51 now. Really great on voice and very close to the sound of the Elam251!
Thanks for the tips, Paul!
You’re welcome Nic!
I love your shirt! I need it! ❤ Greetings from Argentina
Absolutely love these videos, very informative and detailed, thank you for doing this ! And by the way, this is also a great demonstration how awesome the ,, old '' Symphonic Brass library is !
Hey Paul, I love your t-shirt! People capable of self-irony are the best! 🙂👍
Thanks Henrik!!
Paul this is beyond awesome thank you soooooooo much. This puts everything in perspective. Thank you again for you contributions to our understanding of orchestration. Take care Tony
Great tips and advice. Thank you.
Glad it’s useful!
Thank you so much for these Videos Mr paul, tremendously helpful
One explanation I've heard for the horn parts 2nd 3rd inversion is that it dates to handwritten parts, with a 1st/2nd page and a 3rd/4th page, and for denser harmonies it is easier to read if the notes are farther apart - your eyes are less distracted by the line not particularly near yours ... but that feels old wives tale-y
This video is gold!
Awesome video, there's a lot to learn here. Thank you Paul!
Incredibly helpful mate, thank you!
Glad to hear!
For some reason, I felt very excited to see this...
Love the t-shirt! Very jealous about the CTAO (Pro) version of SSB!
Incredible!
These are a great set of videos, thank you. One thing that would really help me is a pdf of the different arrangements so that I can follow as you play. I have tried to create a cheat sheet for myself but I think that I missed some steps.
Thank you for sharing this. I got some fresh perspectives on some different options that I might not have considered or stumbled upon before. I enjoyed the lessons!
Very excited tshirt hahahah YOU'RE A LEGEND MATE
Thank you for the ideas.
I love your shirt!
For Horns the 1,3 2,4 thing is a historical remnant. 1,2 were in one key 3,4 were in another key. The odds had higher and evens had lower.
It just stuck around.
LOVE YOU PAUL 💕
You are my favourite
Thanks!
Wowww thanks a lot for this
You’re welcome Albert!
20:35 Lol, monster bones
Old school!
Love the T-shirt 👍
thanks! had to be done!
I love it, super helpful. Thanks!
Love your work, the videos, London - and the whole Spitfire Team and Products...
Where can I buy the t shirt, Paul ? :-)
I Love the Shirt! Thank you for your great content
Fantastic content, very informative! And that shirt...!!!
It had to be done!!
thank you - excellent !
You’re welcome!
Wow, this is really helpful, thank you 👍
thank you for the helpful tutorial and well done
Paul, what are these wrists cushions you're using? Very nice and informative video! Thanks a lot!
Thanks! They’re from: www.imakproducts.com
@Paul Thomson Thank you for taking the time to answer. It's much appreciated :)
Thanks, very informative! So you often times double the same melody on brass (like violins and horns playing the same)? I always do separate movements in different direction then the string... maybe that’s why my mixes sound cluttered often times I guess! Learning it
I think it was Jerry Goldsmith who said you could never have more than 3 things going on at once or the ear is too confused!
Paul Thomson interesting! Thanks! Will try to layer more and have less notes/movements
Nice video !
This is excellent - thanks Paul! BTW, what is the software you are using?
Thanks! Logic Pro is the DAW
Thanks Paul that was an excellent education piece, so well explained and demonstrated. It raised one question, that is how do you mic a French horn when sampling, does the close mic face the player or the bell?
Engineers argue about this!! Always from the front, but many also put a mic behind as well. But bear in mind - the Tree is the main sound for the mix.
@@PaulThomsonMusic Thanks for the answer and reminding me of the tree.
I love bbcso pro, but I wish the dynamics on the solo horn longs was more like the a4 and less sudden and harsh
That shirt man! xDDDD (and awesome content as always^^)
Wow that shirt! Going all in on the meme! :) love it Paul! Really good video on this topic! subbed and liked :)
Thank you for this demonstration! I have Abbey Road One, should I wait for solo instruments from this collection, or pick up BBCSO?
@5:14 Paul, do we ever get the additional mics for the SSO? When they were released I hadn’t got the money to buy them :(
Wonderful content, thanks for sharing. I love these combinations very much.
I know I’m gonna get in trouble for saying this - lol - but you’ve not got long to wait for them!
@@PaulThomsonMusic Thanks!!! :)) Hope you won‘t get any trouble :D
@@r.kapaun01 Thanks for your reply. I have referred to the previously published Mic Positions that have been temporarily withdrawn from the market. They were called Expansion Packs.
Hey Paul, sorry to ask you again, but when will we be able to get the Outrigger mics in SSB? :)
Not long now!
So that's how they got the Aragorn horns. Bells up. Need that technique in the BBCSO horns now. 😬
Mr. THOMSON: What is your software in which the BBC Spitfire is running? Is it LOGIC PRO which is only for MACS? 😁