Eric all I want for Christmas. Is to be trained by you. I’m willing to drive days just to learn from you. Please feel the Xmas spirit and allow me to learn your teachings. I’d give my left nut. If not you can send me some lupua brass or a bruh barrel for my 6.5 Cree. I beg you sir. Can’t hate a brother ing for trying
Im watching the full version right now. Really enjoyed this. You should do an episode with John Whidden. Id love to hear his opinion of the "truth" about reloading dies. Thank you for your time and the knowledge gifts.
Erik, I generally enjoy your videos but this first installment on primer depths was 20 minutes of almost nothing. All the information in this video could have been conveyed in 5 minutes or less. I hope the full interview is more informative.
To eruditeenigma :its the people like you that Erik took 15 minutes trying to find a way to explain, " great knowledge or learning " yea right you couldn't have a more inappropriate name lighten up you could actually learn something .
@@FSU1HEMI1 I watched the longer interview and there was a lot of meandering before any real information was had regarding the subject at hand. Your response is typical of a fanatic.
I don't think you can load more simpler than me. Lee classic turret press. I shoot, deprime, clean in a homemade wet tumbler. Anneal using flame on a neat little annealing machine. ( there is a local built induction annealer I want to get next year). Lube, bump size 1000th. Expand and wash cases again. Prime using the press, throw and trickle powder. Seat bullet and voila. And no, not been loading for decades, just did my 1st batch of once fire cases today actually. Doing a quick ocw test next. Maybe one more club match than entering Nationals, my goal I to finish in the top 50%. PRS. Have only done 1 club match thus far. But hey, go big or go home
I believe some of the old BR theories on priming may still hold true. The problem will always be with the primers tolerances themselves, and we can not control primer manufacturing. We can now uniform cases and primer pockets very consistently, and could develop tools to uniform and measure pockets to case base or rim top. However, when I (and others) have measured primers there is significant inconsistencies. For example, I have measured CCI BR4 and Federal Match LR primers. Both cup height and height from cup base to top of anvil measurements can vary by several thousands of an inch. In addition, there are variances in the priming compound pellets. This why I feel that seating by feel may currently be the only way to get reasonably consistent crush. It takes practice, and slight variances in primer to cup tightness sometimes makes this tough, but you can often feel first contact. The problem is there is no way to confirm or measure this except with the substitute measurements of velocity and accuracy, which are affected by many more variables. I use Sinclair and 21st century hand tools with great feel. It also appears that the Primal Rights CPS is built very well and should allow great feel, although I haven’t tried it yet. I am no expert, and am not in the same league as either of you, but it does not seem possible to have consistent crush with a set/controlled seating depth due to primer height inconsistencies. Just to be complete, I am aware that K&M does make a hand primer seater with a gauge (kmshooting.com/product/primer-gauge) that measures the depth of each primer pocket and each individual primer height during each primer seating operation to allow “precise control” of depth. However, this seems like it would be a very slow and arduous process, so I have not tried it. These are the rabbit holes that make the sport interesting and cause headaches. What does matter and what doesn’t…the world may never know. However, Eric does a great job testing and discussing options to inform his readers what seems to truly affect results and what just makes us feel better. Thanks to both of you. Best wishes.
Thanks for the sharing brother,I found a clean primer pocket and the feal when seating , my not over thinking trying to do to much ,I get good results by a good powder charge , and all the other working in unison ,I enjoy loading very much and if I get half inch ground at 100 yards Iam in the sweet spot,these are hunting loads not match, enjoyed your comment man ya it made me scratch my head, Lol.
The coolest part of reloading is the rabbit holes...especially when you find one that delivers discernible results. The shit talk for even bothering is fun too lol!
So much information! Easy to get lost! I noticed an improvement when I stopped using the hand primers and began using the press to load primers. Same press and same shell holder, ever time. Important to remember these guys are chasing myth like results, with ridiculously expensive 25 lb rigs, at incredible distances! If you're just a weekend warrior (like me) and chasing 1000 yards, or even a mile, just go shoot! The best thing I ever did is clear my bench from all the unnecessary tools. My results compounded fast when I stopped chasing the internet shooters. I was stuck at 300 yards thinking I needed to trim, turn, unify. Then you get into concentricity gauges, and comparators. Nope! Just wipe the lube off and go hit targets! Find a load at 100 the gun likes, then go right to 1000. Then teach all your buddies. There is no need for any other BS unless you need better than sub 3/4-1 MOA groups at 1000 or a mile. Learning the wind is way more important, seeing your misses is way more important, your spotter is more important. Stop loading and start shooting! Then, circle back and become an F-class LOADER.
I call BS! How does uniforming the primer pocket within .001” matter? What matters is the primer being fully seated (to prevent the primer moving forward when being hit with the firing pin). Primer pocket must be clean of residue so it seats fully. Fully seated primers fire directly into the flash hole (and do not flash under the unseated primer before traveling down the flash hole). Primers deform easily while being seated so make sure your seating method has a STOP to prevent over seating (meaning squashing the primer in the primer pocket), I use a Frankford Arsenal Hand Seating Tool. You can feel went the primer bottoms out in the pocket, then set the stop at that point. I measure my primer seating depth with a dial caliper from case head to seated primer and they range .004”-.005” depth. I’m my mind, cleaning the primer pocket and flash hole is essential. Uniforming the primer pocket is useless.
Uh, that’s exactly what he said? But I use a quality Sinclair uniformer when needed, most recently on a lot of 60 year old Lake City brass, and it resets the pocket to factory and cleans it as well, so I don’t see the problem. I don’t do it on quality new brass.
I would love to see you do a test - 20 cases same lot prepped identically accept primer pockets..half uniformed and see what they group at as well as chrono..this is interesting
Before Lapua made .22-250 brass Winchester was it. In order to seat most primers you had to uniform the pockets. .17 Rem brass and some large pistol revolver brass same thing. Grab a Sinclair uniformed and go to town. Great videos I've learned a lot from you. I don't shoot competition but I'm a serious shooter.
I shoot primarily once-fired Mil/ Fed agency .223/5.56 brass. I used a Lyman primer pocket uniformer religiously and found about all it does is scrape off the fired primer residue. Rarely did it ever remove any brass from the primer pocket base. Now I just decrimp and reprime.
I use a similar tool from K+M precision and especially on once fired mil brass it's always a good idea. You don't want the primer protruding past the case base. Lapua I get it.
Hey Eric... By 91' myself and some customers I wrenched for, were shooting 100,000 rounds a week... more for some, less for others. (From here on I can only speak what I did ). Pistols mainly, shotguns, and rifles. Shooting that many rounds, all I loaded on were Dillon 1000's, 1050's, a 650, and the 900 when it came out... yes I have Wilson hand dies, boxes of j4 jackets, 275# of core material, and all the hand made things like the press for the jackets and bullet turning lathes all made by Red Cornellison and Sam Lair from way back...and custom dies made using the reamers I cut the chambers with... Skipping to the point... I measured the cases in Tool and Die at an airline in Tulsa where I worked, and at McDonnel Douglas where other friends worked. Sooo, in the end everything you have talked about here, was gone through and an anal bit more. The results... depending on mfg. of the cases, rim thickness & pocket depth, and primers on anvil height, feet angularity, softness as to brand ( I shot .38 Super, and used small rifle exclusively) and to shoot them all buying 5000 to a pallet of primers in the last 40 some odd years, .002" crush or preload is what the average took, to load one lot number to the next. After an elephant ass load of rounds, none ever misfired in practice or matches. In all fairness though I had ONE failure to fire with my son years ago because I had been given almost 7500 rounds by a friends widow, and I grabbed a handful out of the shin high ammo can... should have known, lol. I realize it's not the guns or the games you guys shoot, but we are talking primers here right? By the way... I still have over 400 cases of 205 match too... and that pallet... 1/2 full... it's sickening what their ( still don't know anyone who voted for Tweedle - dumb and Tweedle - dumber... being reverent for your YT pod and channel ) president has perpetrated against us all... Oh yeah, the guns we shoot, can hang... and only in extremely rare cases due to mfg. bidenism, have those discernible measurements seemed to matter a great bit. But solely being in the power filled cartridge game... it probably is worth checking. The guns never coughed, were more accurate than 99% of the guys and gals could shoot, and that, proves, everything I did check... contributed, right? Thanks Eric, I always enjoy the content, sorry for the length. Talk to you soon, Sincerely, Seth
I've found I can save myself most of the work by buying quality components. Lapua, Federal, Vihtavuori and Berger. Put them together so they are as consistent round to round as you can be and they'll be better than almost any shooter.
Will a change in primer seating depth take a .3 gun into the .1’s or .0’s? No, more focus should be applied to consistent case prep. Consistent neck tension and bullet release plays much more of a factor. I like Greg and agree with 80% of what he says, at the end of the day he has a $650 priming tool to sell.
The only time I uniform a primer pocket is if I had to remove a crimp and if I'm removing a crimp on brass it's 556 brass that's being shot out of an AR15. Ever since I've watched a few of these videos while doing brass prep I've got on the bandwagon of doing absolutely nothing with primer pockets or flash holes. Hell most of my 6.5 Creedmoor/Grendel and 6mm ARC I barely clean the brass and I don't see any differences between that ammo and my old ammo when I was doing everything under the sun with it. I'm not exactly sure if anything in this video applies to anything I do but it's definitely interesting to me because I've never really thought of any of this before. Really cool info and great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
Hi Erik, very interesting subject. If I understand the real problem is the rim thickness that is unconsistent. So the best solution is to uniform these rims with a lathe or a special tool. So uniforming primer pockets can improve or not, but it won't ruin anything ! He also forgets that because of the pressure brass flows into the primer pocket (especially on the 3-4 first firings), and the primer pocket will preserve the same pocket size with square corners at the bottom.
I have the old rcbs bench primer. I can feel everything and watching this helps me understand what's happening when I seat a primer. So I can try to get them at least feeling the same.
All of this is based on the primer after manufacturing. Trying to reduce variance within the reload, However, sadly, there is still variance within the materials that make up the primer compounds, uniformity of the primer components, reducing the distortion of the primer while seating and the hardware within e.g. anvils, etc.,. I'm not sure I buy all this and while I understand what Greg is saying, I think he's creating a market for a problem that doesn't really matter. Perhaps to pro shooters, trying to finesse a half of percent of performance in their loads. It seems to me, the energy should be focused elsewhere, such as the uniformity of the Meplat and Ogive. My two cents. I don't think people will be turned off, some just won't care. How many professional shooters are measuring the primer pockets after each firing? I'd like to see some hard data that substantiate the difference.
He gave no empirical evidence that it makes a hairs breadth difference. It is a solution looking for a problem. He is trying to sell a product he produces. I watched a video last night on this very subject. The host did all the primer measurements, segregating primers, and all the other time wasters and then shot the cartridges and found no difference whatever. The only thing necessary is to avoid not seating the primer to the bottom of the pocket. You can do this with an RCBS bench mounted tool. Until he gives the empirical evidence by actually shooting and showing how much difference it makes, I will remain an infidel.
100 percent correct , all of this only matters if the primers have zero variance from the manufacturer. This is all pointless and gains you nothing . Nothing .
Back before politics became such a problem with our loading supply. About 2000. I had been having problems with seating primers. With those cases I had been using. Rem.,Win... My supply change. I found a quality pocket dreamer eliminated tight pockets. Primers would not except 100% of cases and they would rotate 90% in pockets preventing seating. By reaming pockets one time. Seating pressure became consistent. Then I tried lapua cases. I quit pocket reaming because dreamer did not cut (ream) any more. Our supply chain is continuing to change. Weather it's new tooling or what ever. Thanks for helping us to keep in the know.
Eric, I don’t like that you have given a major secret of consistent V and SD/ES away to the acolytes of reloading. This subject should never be mentioned publicly. You just gave fire to the monkeys. One of my joys in life has been guys who measure to the single grain and weigh each case and bullets and batch purchase and neck tension and brass prep OCD and still can’t achieve consistent V. Remember apples for students? Now look where we are. I still love you brother but damn it.
Sounds like people are over thinking it. Once fired the brass gives you uniformity. Main goal is consistent pressures through fitting the chamber. The backside is engineered for tolerance.
A chucklehead like myself can easily demonstrate variations in group size as a result of different bullet seating depths. (all other factors remaining equal) What's hanging me up is Mr. Dykstra's suggestion that the inconsistencies in primer seating that most of us experience are just as important as bullet seating depth. I'm not calling B.S. and I understand that having our ignition squared away is critical I'm just not digesting the concept of this primer issue having as dramatic effect upon group size as would bullet seating depth. I'd enjoy an even deeper dive on this subject. Thanks for all you do!
Ok, no problem so now I will uniform the rims on my lathe.👍 In another video you said that headspace measurment matters because the case is pushed against the shoulder (by ejector+firing pin)... I would uniform everything : primer pocket, case rim and headspace
What likely really matters in the end is the measurement from the case shoulder datum line to the face of the seated primer. The base face or rim is not what holds the case when it is in the chamber.
I ream primer pockets a couple thou more than the depth of the primer itself so they are sitting just below flush of the case base. I never put much else into consideration here.
I don't load for the kind of precision you guys do. I recently started loading for and old exmilitary 7x57. I bought some Seller and Belloit ammo. When trying to reload this brass the primers would not seat anywhere near flush let alone below flush. I ran across the same issue with some brass for 7.62x54R. S and B brass as well as Winchester brass. I bought a primer pocket uniformer to deepen the pockets so primers will seat.
@@clonoid this s&b ammo did not have crimped primers. I have been reloading forty years and know the difference. I load a lot of 223 and 556. Many of these get crimped primers. They get used in autoloading rifles, these often need crimped primer to reduce jams from primers falling out.
I’m trying to simplify my reloading not add work to it, loading in speed nodes and seatings depth nodes helped me tremendous I’ll leave it at that but good components load that way and I have better loads than I can shoot
If you are seeking to make the reloading experience more enjoyable, then by all means, spend the money if you’ve got it. If you are seeking to make a difference in the precision of what happens at the target, then your time and money are probably better spent elsewhere: training, range time, etc.
The only time I use a tool in the primer pocket is to remove a military crimp. Otherwise I use a primer pocket brush to clean it and as Eric said " leave it alone"
I uniform primer pockets. Then I seat all of the way. Thin I do load development. MR Jerry mechhuleck. Points this out. Question, is your firing pin seating your primer before ignition? All I know is I’ve had great success. Thanks for the video
I don’t buy new brass, all my brass is at least once fired. I’ll clean them (primer pockets) out using the bit on my Lyman case prep station, but I don’t get too detailed. Then again, I’m not a competitive shooter, and going beyond 300 yards is very rare for me.
Interesting conversation but.... If you seat your primers fully, does it really matter? Any data to indicate it reduces ES? I am skeptical that you will see any repeatable data to justify this level of OCD.
Exactly Greg isnt showing any kind of data. Seat your primers bottoming them out and clean the primer pockets. Greg doesnt shoot competively. He shoots minute of prarie dog. All this mumbo jumbo is to sell his $650 seater.
Man... I haven't reloaded for long range in a few years due to a location change for work. When I was home in December I did some ladder testing with a .223 and .308 Rem TAC (not a precision rifle but pretty accurate). I wasn't happy with what I was getting, probably because I was chasing the lands, but I ran out of time. I'm moving back home and plan to pick up where I left off. I use a Sinclair hand priming tool and it's been good. I've also been cleaning pockets (not on my Lapua brass though). I like what I'm seeing on the Primal Rights site for higher round count priming. It looks like I can use my Dillon primer tube filler with it as well as the Lee Lee Autoprime shell holders. I generally load 5 for each powder charge and 5 different charges for sighters and a ladder test at 200. Just the last week of of watching your videos has me rethinking about 1/2 of what I thought I knew. Including primer pocket uniforming...
There’s been millions of rounds reloaded by people that cleaned the primer pocket with a variety of pocket cleaner, pocket knife, screw drivers ect, and never had issues.
I think Erik stumbled on that bastard gremlin that creeps into every reloading room. It's not that important for the variance of bullet weight, or primer pocket differences, etc. Now, I am going to quote Erik here, "Consistency is useless if you're looking at the agg." Well, if we go by this mantra (which is undoubtedly only attributable to Erik) we must also state (as the 15th rule of universal thermodynamics) that the aggregate between primer pockets, bullet weight variance, butterfly farts in China, and temp variance in powder if we are to be completely honest with each other. :) Damn fine video guys. These are the discussions we should all be having. Such a vast amount of experience and knowledge here. I actually cut the pocket back out post firing with a thinger jigger that goes all the way into the pocket and cuts just the bottom of the primer pocket. I have no idea what the tolerance or variance is on this TJ (Thingy Jigger) but it will only work on a fired case and it takes maybe a .0001" of brass out of the pocket. I prime on a Dillon and make sure to really crush the shit out of that little booger just because that particular case pissed me off last week by causing a flyer. Yes, I sort my cases by what pisses me off with a flyer and which ones don't. #lapuarocks
Consistent firing pin travel = Primer cups touching the bottom of the pocket + consistent primer cup dimensions + consistent primer pocket depth + consistent case rim thickness + consistent case headspace dimension So this new tool doesn't seem to improve anything. At which point the firing pin travel is important, is it worth it to uniform the rims thickness or sort the primers ? I will try to modify an headspace gage to measure the case from its shoulder to the primer, sort some cartridges by this measurment and take the velocities to get an answer.
Uniforming primer pockets is not important. Having the same depth in all your primer pockets is not important. Here, buy my $600 priming tool and seat primers in inconsistent pockets. I'm lost. Oh and ruining your brass from uniforming? Other f class shooters are getting 20+ firings while uniforming. So how is it ruining the brass?
@@buick4622 it's normal to get inconsistent primer seating depth if the primer pockets aren't the same. If you have more or less friction between the primer cup and the primer pocket (diameter, shape), it will resist more or less to the seating operation ---> inconsistent seating depth. I' ve made some tests that shown that this inconsistency comes mostly from this difference of friction, from the primer pocket and not from the primers. You can allso check and see that even with the same depth setting on the tool, if you seat the same primer again and again the primer will seat deeper and deeper each time. A solution could consist to sort your brass by primer seating depth.
Greg has created a perceived problem to sell a $650 priming tool. All the time at a load bench doesn’t matter if your skill behind the rifle sucks…I prefer to spend time shooting, reading wind, mirage, etc. It’s like the old baseball saying….. a $100 bat doesn’t fix a$1 swing. I understand the concepts being discussed but think the results are probably neglible.
You are spot on Nathan. I have watched friends of mine getting sucked into this never ending saga of new reloading tools. After spending $100s on new fancy tools there is little to no improvement in their shooting skills. Perhaps spending some time and money on your shooting skills may be the way to go. I have huge respect for Eric and have followed his advice for some time now.
This is all good, but what tool is he referring to that allows you to sort cases by primer pocket depth? Looks like he was going to introduce that. I’ll check out the full video.
Props to Greg for cultivating that badass Boone & Crockett worthy neck beard. I’m trying to decide whether a #4 double coil long spring or a Conibear would be better to trap that bad boy with. Either way it’s going straight to the taxidermist once I catch it.
What is your opinion on Nolser Custom Grade Brass? Do you think Lapua will one day have the 7mm rem mag brass? Excellent interview and information. Thanks.
Ensuring primers are bottomed out, thus having adequate anvil compression and having de-burred flash holes should be good to go for the avg reloader. Myself having encountered situations were a certain brand X of primers and type X brass cases would cause primers to not seat below flush without resorting to abnormal seating forces (noticeably indenting the primers). Thus began my journey with primer uni-formers to render case primer cup depth to within SAAMI specs (0.125 to 0.132) for a large primer; however, I had always assumed as per the SAAMI dwg that the base of the case was the reference point. However, here it mentions that reference datum is the top of the rim not the base of the case head due to manufacturing process! Anyone have ref, video links, etc on that specific portion of the manufacturing process?
You're on the right track of busting this grift. All other brass prep registers off the face of the case head. There is zero need to overcomplicate when SAAMI specs allow 8 to 13 thou tolerance deviation and manufacturers say that's good enough.
Doesn't the base of the case seat on the bolt of the firearm? Additionally, have you taken into consideration fluid dynamics of propulsion? I'm not a long range shooter but I would think the primer pocket and flash hole would act like a rocket motor. as long as you have reliable ignition and accurate alignment of the flash hole through the center of the powder (fuel) charge then you would have the most uniform and consistent burn of propellant. Also, aren't there variances in primer cup uniformity that may lead to variances in angle of alignment of the primer in the pocket? Again, I'm not an expert but I am curious as to what your input or thoughts might be on this theory I have.
Hello Erik. Thanks for all the interviews and Info you get out to us shooters! Question: how are you getting uniform primer seating if you dont clean your primer pockets when you prep your brass?
Is this why Remington tried the Electronic primer in the 90s so that there is no measurement or force that affects the round in the chamber? Will discussions like this bring that back?
This is a very interesting topic and I would like to know more. I have always been mentored to use my hand seater to feel the threshold of a primer seating down, but it took me quite a while to feel a decent comfort level. It is a variable I've always known exists. Has there been any independent testing on the benefits of this tool? I applaud Greg for his creative invention. I would recommend him having some published independent testing. I apologize if this is already been done and I'm missing it.
I was watching one of your older vedios and you mentioned knowing German Salazar. He got me into LR and helped me with my RPA Quadlock Palma biuld. (Alex Sitman and Alan Warner). I lost track of him when he moved to Arizona and I've tried reaching out to him without success. He had some health concerns when he lived down here in Florida and I wanted to know how he's been doing. You have any info you're willing to share? Thanks
If all the measurements are not the same. And I mean all. Your pissing in the wind. I deal with less than .0002 on machine work. so if you think that a primer is this consistent when is built your up in the night. The firing pin will have to hit it at the same depth from which it is seated first off. Just as you stated. Next the primer has to be 10000% correct when it is built. All dimensions. Including primer hull thickness and tensile strength. Other wise when the firing pin hits the shell it Shall be inconsistence. Where does it end.
Well, if you deal with 0.0002”, then you understand that everything has a tolerance. If you do a test and figure out that you have 0.004” tolerance in primer seating depth where rifle shoots best, it’s not hard to seat it in the center of that “node” and maintain good accuracy even though the tolerance is large. With such large tolerances in components, it’s more important to test and find the center of the node so that the tolerance don’t stack against you. B
17:50 you mention reliable ignition. How do you measure the ignition, and how can you determine consistency of ignition? If there is no reliable way to measure ignition, and to know the factors related to its impact on accuracy, the entire discussion becomes moot. That is, match winners will be right, and match losers will be wrong. But why? I think the machining answer would be to have primer pockets with a ledge in them, which would stop the bottom rim of the primer cup, and include a preset depth to the bottom of the primer pocket, sufficient to provide your desired anvil "crush" number, which you said you want at about 0.002". Then you could eliminate variation due to primer seating friction on the side of the primer cup, since the degree of tension would not change the ultimate seating depth of the primer and anvil. A manufacturer, such as Alpha, would need to produce cases with cut flash holes, then the end user would need to use his personal primer pocket cutter to finish the job, indexing the cutter off the flash hole as "center". Then your primer pocket cutter would function as a primer pocket uniformer, indexing each time off of the flash hole as center. Perhaps the primer pocket cutter could include a flash hole cutter on its nose, and you could chuck the cases up individually, and cut your own flash holes and primer pockets. That would make it easy to get a manufacturer to provide test brass, since they already have a metric ton of cases without flash holes and primer pockets. Yeah, do that and get back to me. I think I want one cutter that cuts flash holes plus primer pockets, and another that just has a centering rod in the primer pocket cutter, so I don't risk wallowing out my flash holes; and guys that want small primers and small flash holes can use a different cutter than guys that want large pockets and large flash holes. If we do this, the only real variable in ignition for a given rifle is the internal construction of the primer. To work on this, you're going to have to talk to the lady in Lewiston that puts your primers together. I suspect that aspect is as good as it can get already, though.
I understand trying to get the best absolute zero in tolerances, but how much does it really matter? Erik has said he will change his barrel if it opens up to a 1/4 MOA, for 99% of shooters, Learning to read the wind would be a better use of their time. But, Really, I'd like to see groups shot with every variable at zero, then change the primer depth .001 and see what the groups size difference is. For the 99.99% we'd never know if it was the primer, wind, use, etc. Basically I'm saying there is perfect, realistic, Professional(Erik), Combat effective, beginner, and DPRK. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining Erik's content is amazing, I just want to see the difference it would really make. I already shoot Lapua Brass and have never taken reloading to this level of concern, because if I miss I'm gonna blame myself anyway.
So everything in handloadi ng adds up to percentages gained towards accuracy right.So what would this add up to in as far as other load prepping.Would seating depths gain enough to warrant this tool? And yet another thing to warrant concern that may or not be that viable.
Measuring primer pocket depth (the slow way) couldn't you measure the rim thickness with calipers then the pocket depth from the base and plot out the difference?🤔
So, is there a tool on the market that will properly measure the primer pocket depth and also measure the depth the primer is seated? If so, where can it be purchased?
So I thought that was the purpose of my priming tool was to put in the pockets till it hit bottom , now we need to crush it .002 or more . Couldn’t you just use a set of graduated shell holder to get that crush ?
I'm sure if primer seating depth was important then benchrest shooters would have been talking about it years ago. One thing he's not considering is the depth of the brass through the flash hole area of the base. Next we'll have a tool to machine the inside base of the case.
WELL, I SOLVED THE RIM THICKNESS PROBLEM. That is why I developed something specifically for the CPS that does not effect the headspace or anything else. I now get primer seating depth within .0005, that is five ten thousandth of an inch no matter what the rim thickness is. I told Greg this and he told me that only maybe one percent of people worry about rim thickness. I find that extremely hard to believe. Why would someone want to prime a bunch of cases , say 100, and then have to sort them by primer seating depth and be left with maybe 50 cases that are within .001 and the other 50 you use for something else? Instead, with my mod for the CPS they will ALL be withing .0001. I call BS. So eventually I am going to release the plans for anyone to do this to their CPS.
Great discussion guys! Hey big question for you. What do we do when a large amount of carbon and whatever else builds up at the bottom of the primer pocket? I have had some that really had a large amount of that crud. Wouldn’t that effect the consistency of how the primer seats into the pocket of the crud was thick enough to partially or fully collide with the bottom of the primer once seated into the pocket? You guys have the know how, thanks a million for sharing so much with us out here floundering around.:))
exactly we have all been sold on uniforming. The cutter will clean that up. I would love to see MV SDs when all else is equal. SDs on all dimensions would also be nice to know. I hope that was not covered in that minute I was up grabbing a notebook.
Yesterday I've read that the flame is longer with a smaller primer hole. (ignition of the whole powder charge in a shorter time). That's why Pindell&Pallisamo took the .220 russian case to build their famous wildcat, the 6mmPPC
Do a test... Get some Alpha or Lapua brass and load everything the same except primer seating depth-- same lot of everything -- brass, primers, bullets, powder. Different seating depths... Accuracy at 100, 200, 300 etc yards.
There are insects flying in the line of fire; how can insect density be measured and controlled so to take another possible variable out of bullet flight? I can't hit the target but I have perfect primer seating depth.
A machinist is trained to make almost anything (given the right machine and tooling), Erik makes barrel tuners. I only call myself a hobby machinist but I have done plenty of machining professionally in a fabrication shop and in some ways I might know more about machining (all unimportant to making barrel tuners) than Erik. Real machinists probably don't toot their own horn enough but I know and I bet Erik knows when we meet a real one. It's very hard to call yourself a machinist without formal training. All of my training was informal. I think Erik has had some formal training but very specific. If you don't humble yourself in the machine shop, someone will do it for you.
I'm calling you out on this. Even Lapua brass has at least .005 variance in primer pocket depth. So now Greg said rim thickness varies up to .005 also and I agree. So if you were to uniform your primer pockets to say .131 deep they would ALL be .131 deep, as opposed to .129.5 to 131.5 as Lapua comes. So now all your primer pockets are .131. How do you get off saying you are introducing more variance. You are STILL and always will be at the mercy of the rim thickness, no matter how you look at it. So Greg, even with your CPS and your Primewhere, which I own both, you are still indexing off the top of the shellholder. So, in reality, if you were to leave it alone and NOT uniform your primer pockets, you would have the variance of the rim thickness PLUS the variance of the primer pocket depth!!! After uniforming the primer pockets you only have the variance in rim thickness!! Better to have only one variance than two. Think about this long and hard. You are mistaking my friend.
It's all talk and no play. I have yet to see an actual test which proves primer seating depths make any substantial difference. On the contrary, I've seen actual tests done where primers were seated at different depths and absolutely nothing changed.
Competitive shooters worry about it because we are trying to get the most Precision out of our rifles. So in reality, anyone looking for precision should look into it regardless of what the rifle is used for.
What Erik is saying around the 14 minute mark is ringing true to me! I’m hearing all this and it’s giving me anxiety! Reloading is starting to feel like work instead of a hobby that gives me an edge over my buddies which brings me a whole bunch of joy!
i have a 6.5 x55 se a true se case i got 6 fired cases i de primed them they were thinner primers and primmer pockets i got a pocket cutter truer to standard ones i try to my hand it was put on drill and 6 were good then i got used 6.5 x 55 used or reloaded cases from older mauser rifle the dealer sold to other person i had to shorten necks the reloads were on top of each other a clump on target different powder types and loads,, i shot the 6 rounds & neck sided them the bolt closed the other older cases did not with out shorten cases re size cases! this rifle i took to a nra test shoot 5 rounds a 100% i put this in a case & back in truck locked up and waited hours no one even matched it i changed firearms it was so close the computer target system had me on same rifle at 100 and 200 yards but 600 yard i used a 22-250 it was all over wind and it was light bullets i had blood clots and other stuff since i was hurt bad to in my back and shoulder!
I understand the idea but it's just digging a hole and putting rabbits in it. I want to see it tested in both benchrest and 1000 yrd to see the results. I'm already saying nothing will be found.
I'm reading Glenn Newick's book "ultimate rifle accuracy" wrtitten in 1989. I'm surprised to see what was the accuracy level and how close it was vs nowadays. It would take years before proving any accuracy improvements with such tools. As you said the proof is the results in competitions (benchrest, f-class) and not numbers given on a website or any TH-cam channel.
We barely scratched the surface. Watch full interview here: th-cam.com/video/IUI_pXWUMD0/w-d-xo.html
Eric all I want for Christmas. Is to be trained by you. I’m willing to drive days just to learn from you. Please feel the Xmas spirit and allow me to learn your teachings. I’d give my left nut. If not you can send me some lupua brass or a bruh barrel for my 6.5 Cree. I beg you sir. Can’t hate a brother ing for trying
Im watching the full version right now. Really enjoyed this. You should do an episode with John Whidden. Id love to hear his opinion of the "truth" about reloading dies.
Thank you for your time and the knowledge gifts.
Erik, I generally enjoy your videos but this first installment on primer depths was 20 minutes of almost nothing. All the information in this video could have been conveyed in 5 minutes or less. I hope the full interview is more informative.
To eruditeenigma :its the people like you that Erik took 15 minutes trying to find a way to explain, " great knowledge or learning " yea right you couldn't have a more inappropriate name lighten up you could actually learn something .
@@FSU1HEMI1 I watched the longer interview and there was a lot of meandering before any real information was had regarding the subject at hand. Your response is typical of a fanatic.
Man I remember when Eric said " Reloading is simple, you make it dificult" wow so much to learn!
Don’t learn it, understand it. Once you do, you’ll realize how simple it is. :)
@@ErikCortina Amen lol thanks :)
I don't think you can load more simpler than me. Lee classic turret press. I shoot, deprime, clean in a homemade wet tumbler. Anneal using flame on a neat little annealing machine.
( there is a local built induction annealer I want to get next year). Lube, bump size 1000th. Expand and wash cases again. Prime using the press, throw and trickle powder. Seat bullet and voila.
And no, not been loading for decades, just did my 1st batch of once fire cases today actually. Doing a quick ocw test next. Maybe one more club match than entering Nationals, my goal I to finish in the top 50%. PRS. Have only done 1 club match thus far. But hey, go big or go home
Woah. That Primal right costs almost R14k here.
Is it going to make my Howa 6.5 Creed shoot 14k better than using the bench to prime.
Make everything same, bawlit hit sames spot. Bawlit smash!
Of course it’s important, the dude is trying to sell you a patented gizmo you can’t get anywhere else!
I believe some of the old BR theories on priming may still hold true. The problem will always be with the primers tolerances themselves, and we can not control primer manufacturing. We can now uniform cases and primer pockets very consistently, and could develop tools to uniform and measure pockets to case base or rim top. However, when I (and others) have measured primers there is significant inconsistencies. For example, I have measured CCI BR4 and Federal Match LR primers. Both cup height and height from cup base to top of anvil measurements can vary by several thousands of an inch. In addition, there are variances in the priming compound pellets. This why I feel that seating by feel may currently be the only way to get reasonably consistent crush. It takes practice, and slight variances in primer to cup tightness sometimes makes this tough, but you can often feel first contact. The problem is there is no way to confirm or measure this except with the substitute measurements of velocity and accuracy, which are affected by many more variables. I use Sinclair and 21st century hand tools with great feel. It also appears that the Primal Rights CPS is built very well and should allow great feel, although I haven’t tried it yet. I am no expert, and am not in the same league as either of you, but it does not seem possible to have consistent crush with a set/controlled seating depth due to primer height inconsistencies. Just to be complete, I am aware that K&M does make a hand primer seater with a gauge (kmshooting.com/product/primer-gauge) that measures the depth of each primer pocket and each individual primer height during each primer seating operation to allow “precise control” of depth. However, this seems like it would be a very slow and arduous process, so I have not tried it. These are the rabbit holes that make the sport interesting and cause headaches. What does matter and what doesn’t…the world may never know. However, Eric does a great job testing and discussing options to inform his readers what seems to truly affect results and what just makes us feel better. Thanks to both of you. Best wishes.
Very good point
What a great comment! Thoughtful and articulate. It deserves more than just 5 Likes.
Thanks for the sharing brother,I found a clean primer pocket and the feal when seating , my not over thinking trying to do to much ,I get good results by a good powder charge , and all the other working in unison ,I enjoy loading very much and if I get half inch ground at 100 yards Iam in the sweet spot,these are hunting loads not match, enjoyed your comment man ya it made me scratch my head, Lol.
The coolest part of reloading is the rabbit holes...especially when you find one that delivers discernible results. The shit talk for even bothering is fun too lol!
So much information! Easy to get lost! I noticed an improvement when I stopped using the hand primers and began using the press to load primers. Same press and same shell holder, ever time.
Important to remember these guys are chasing myth like results, with ridiculously expensive 25 lb rigs, at incredible distances! If you're just a weekend warrior (like me) and chasing 1000 yards, or even a mile, just go shoot!
The best thing I ever did is clear my bench from all the unnecessary tools. My results compounded fast when I stopped chasing the internet shooters. I was stuck at 300 yards thinking I needed to trim, turn, unify. Then you get into concentricity gauges, and comparators. Nope! Just wipe the lube off and go hit targets! Find a load at 100 the gun likes, then go right to 1000. Then teach all your buddies. There is no need for any other BS unless you need better than sub 3/4-1 MOA groups at 1000 or a mile. Learning the wind is way more important, seeing your misses is way more important, your spotter is more important. Stop loading and start shooting! Then, circle back and become an F-class LOADER.
I call BS! How does uniforming the primer pocket within .001” matter? What matters is the primer being fully seated (to prevent the primer moving forward when being hit with the firing pin). Primer pocket must be clean of residue so it seats fully. Fully seated primers fire directly into the flash hole (and do not flash under the unseated primer before traveling down the flash hole). Primers deform easily while being seated so make sure your seating method has a STOP to prevent over seating (meaning squashing the primer in the primer pocket), I use a Frankford Arsenal Hand Seating Tool. You can feel went the primer bottoms out in the pocket, then set the stop at that point. I measure my primer seating depth with a dial caliper from case head to seated primer and they range .004”-.005” depth. I’m my mind, cleaning the primer pocket and flash hole is essential. Uniforming the primer pocket is useless.
yeah
I’m with you here!
A man needs to know his limitations!
Uh, that’s exactly what he said? But I use a quality Sinclair uniformer when needed, most recently on a lot of 60 year old Lake City brass, and it resets the pocket to factory and cleans it as well, so I don’t see the problem. I don’t do it on quality new brass.
@@E.L.RipleyAtNostromo I just bought one of those kits myself from Brownells and now I’m feeling like I just wasted more money..
I can only hope that I can one day shoot well enough to nit pic my primer seating depth.
I'm nerding out on this stuff!
I would love to see you do a test - 20 cases same lot prepped identically accept primer pockets..half uniformed and see what they group at as well as chrono..this is interesting
Before Lapua made .22-250 brass Winchester was it. In order to seat most primers you had to uniform the pockets. .17 Rem brass and some large pistol revolver brass same thing. Grab a Sinclair uniformed and go to town. Great videos I've learned a lot from you. I don't shoot competition but I'm a serious shooter.
The info in this video doesn't scare me away it draws me in closer
Sounds like a solution in search of a problem
I shoot primarily once-fired Mil/ Fed agency .223/5.56 brass. I used a Lyman primer pocket uniformer religiously and found about all it does is scrape off the fired primer residue. Rarely did it ever remove any brass from the primer pocket base. Now I just decrimp and reprime.
I use a similar tool from K+M precision and especially on once fired mil brass it's always a good idea. You don't want the primer protruding past the case base. Lapua I get it.
Hey Eric... By 91' myself and some customers I wrenched for, were shooting 100,000 rounds a week... more for some, less for others. (From here on I can only speak what I did ).
Pistols mainly, shotguns, and rifles. Shooting that many rounds, all I loaded on were Dillon 1000's, 1050's, a 650, and the 900 when it came out... yes I have Wilson hand dies, boxes of j4 jackets, 275# of core material, and all the hand made things like the press for the jackets and bullet turning lathes all made by Red Cornellison and Sam Lair from way back...and custom dies made using the reamers I cut the chambers with...
Skipping to the point... I measured the cases in Tool and Die at an airline in Tulsa where I worked, and at McDonnel Douglas where other friends worked. Sooo, in the end everything you have talked about here, was gone through and an anal bit more. The results... depending on mfg. of the cases, rim thickness & pocket depth, and primers on anvil height, feet angularity, softness as to brand ( I shot .38 Super, and used small rifle exclusively) and to shoot them all buying 5000 to a pallet of primers in the last 40 some odd years, .002" crush or preload is what the average took, to load one lot number to the next. After an elephant ass load of rounds, none ever misfired in practice or matches. In all fairness though I had ONE failure to fire with my son years ago because I had been given almost 7500 rounds by a friends widow, and I grabbed a handful out of the shin high ammo can... should have known, lol.
I realize it's not the guns or the games you guys shoot, but we are talking primers here right? By the way... I still have over 400 cases of 205 match too... and that pallet... 1/2 full... it's sickening what their ( still don't know anyone who voted for Tweedle - dumb and Tweedle - dumber... being reverent for your YT pod and channel ) president has perpetrated against us all...
Oh yeah, the guns we shoot, can hang... and only in extremely rare cases due to mfg. bidenism, have those discernible measurements seemed to matter a great bit. But solely being in the power filled cartridge game... it probably is worth checking.
The guns never coughed, were more accurate than 99% of the guys and gals could shoot, and that, proves, everything I did check... contributed, right?
Thanks Eric, I always enjoy the content, sorry for the length. Talk to you soon,
Sincerely, Seth
I've found I can save myself most of the work by buying quality components. Lapua, Federal, Vihtavuori and Berger. Put them together so they are as consistent round to round as you can be and they'll be better than almost any shooter.
Will a change in primer seating depth take a .3 gun into the .1’s or .0’s? No, more focus should be applied to consistent case prep.
Consistent neck tension and bullet release plays much more of a factor. I like Greg and agree with 80% of what he says, at the end of the day he has a $650 priming tool to sell.
The only time I uniform a primer pocket is if I had to remove a crimp and if I'm removing a crimp on brass it's 556 brass that's being shot out of an AR15. Ever since I've watched a few of these videos while doing brass prep I've got on the bandwagon of doing absolutely nothing with primer pockets or flash holes. Hell most of my 6.5 Creedmoor/Grendel and 6mm ARC I barely clean the brass and I don't see any differences between that ammo and my old ammo when I was doing everything under the sun with it. I'm not exactly sure if anything in this video applies to anything I do but it's definitely interesting to me because I've never really thought of any of this before. Really cool info and great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
What are these “Primers” you’re talking about? Haven’t seen anything like that in over a year.
I forgot what they block like:)
Hi Erik, very interesting subject. If I understand the real problem is the rim thickness that is unconsistent. So the best solution is to uniform these rims with a lathe or a special tool. So uniforming primer pockets can improve or not, but it won't ruin anything ! He also forgets that because of the pressure brass flows into the primer pocket (especially on the 3-4 first firings), and the primer pocket will preserve the same pocket size with square corners at the bottom.
wow man
I have the old rcbs bench primer. I can feel everything and watching this helps me understand what's happening when I seat a primer.
So I can try to get them at least feeling the same.
That's all you need. I do the same and get great results.
All of this is based on the primer after manufacturing. Trying to reduce variance within the reload, However, sadly, there is still variance within the materials that make up the primer compounds, uniformity of the primer components, reducing the distortion of the primer while seating and the hardware within e.g. anvils, etc.,. I'm not sure I buy all this and while I understand what Greg is saying, I think he's creating a market for a problem that doesn't really matter. Perhaps to pro shooters, trying to finesse a half of percent of performance in their loads. It seems to me, the energy should be focused elsewhere, such as the uniformity of the Meplat and Ogive. My two cents. I don't think people will be turned off, some just won't care. How many professional shooters are measuring the primer pockets after each firing? I'd like to see some hard data that substantiate the difference.
He gave no empirical evidence that it makes a hairs breadth difference. It is a solution looking for a problem. He is trying to sell a product he produces. I watched a video last night on this very subject. The host did all the primer measurements, segregating primers, and all the other time wasters and then shot the cartridges and found no difference whatever. The only thing necessary is to avoid not seating the primer to the bottom of the pocket. You can do this with an RCBS bench mounted tool. Until he gives the empirical evidence by actually shooting and showing how much difference it makes, I will remain an infidel.
@@ronkellam8184 good answer. I ripped him on this and SAAMI tolerances.
100 percent correct , all of this only matters if the primers have zero variance from the manufacturer. This is all pointless and gains you nothing . Nothing .
Don’t chase the lands. Don’t chase the primer pockets
Do you neck size ? 😄
@@br4713 hell I do!
Back before politics became such a problem with our loading supply. About 2000. I had been having problems with seating primers. With those cases I had been using. Rem.,Win...
My supply change.
I found a quality pocket dreamer eliminated tight pockets. Primers would not except 100% of cases and they would rotate 90% in pockets preventing seating. By reaming pockets one time. Seating pressure became consistent.
Then I tried lapua cases. I quit pocket reaming because dreamer did not cut (ream) any more.
Our supply chain is continuing to change. Weather it's new tooling or what ever. Thanks for helping us to keep in the know.
Eric,
I don’t like that you have given a major secret of consistent V and SD/ES away to the acolytes of reloading. This subject should never be mentioned publicly. You just gave fire to the monkeys. One of my joys in life has been guys who measure to the single grain and weigh each case and bullets and batch purchase and neck tension and brass prep OCD and still can’t achieve consistent V. Remember apples for students? Now look where we are.
I still love you brother but damn it.
Read the comments. Most don’t believe it anyway. 😂
Sounds like people are over thinking it. Once fired the brass gives you uniformity. Main goal is consistent pressures through fitting the chamber. The backside is engineered for tolerance.
A chucklehead like myself can easily demonstrate variations in group size as a result of different bullet seating depths. (all other factors remaining equal)
What's hanging me up is Mr. Dykstra's suggestion that the inconsistencies in primer seating that most of us experience are just as important as bullet seating depth.
I'm not calling B.S. and I understand that having our ignition squared away is critical I'm just not digesting the concept of this primer issue having as dramatic effect upon group size as would bullet seating depth.
I'd enjoy an even deeper dive on this subject.
Thanks for all you do!
Ok, no problem so now I will uniform the rims on my lathe.👍 In another video you said that headspace measurment matters because the case is pushed against the shoulder (by ejector+firing pin)...
I would uniform everything : primer pocket, case rim and headspace
What likely really matters in the end is the measurement from the case shoulder datum line to the face of the seated primer. The base face or rim is not what holds the case when it is in the chamber.
You're right ! My solution for the moment is to crush my primers a little (feel it with my hand priming tool)
I ream primer pockets a couple thou more than the depth of the primer itself so they are sitting just below flush of the case base. I never put much else into consideration here.
I don't load for the kind of precision you guys do. I recently started loading for and old exmilitary 7x57. I bought some Seller and Belloit ammo. When trying to reload this brass the primers would not seat anywhere near flush let alone below flush. I ran across the same issue with some brass for 7.62x54R. S and B brass as well as Winchester brass. I bought a primer pocket uniformer to deepen the pockets so primers will seat.
those cases probably have a crimp on the primer pocket which needs removing more than the primer pocket needs to be deeper
@@clonoid this s&b ammo did not have crimped primers. I have been reloading forty years and know the difference.
I load a lot of 223 and 556. Many of these get crimped primers. They get used in autoloading rifles, these often need crimped primer to reduce jams from primers falling out.
Eric and Greg, thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you, 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍🇺🇸
I’m trying to simplify my reloading not add work to it, loading in speed nodes and seatings depth nodes helped me tremendous I’ll leave it at that but good components load that way and I have better loads than I can shoot
If you are seeking to make the reloading experience more enjoyable, then by all means, spend the money if you’ve got it. If you are seeking to make a difference in the precision of what happens at the target, then your time and money are probably better spent elsewhere: training, range time, etc.
Very interesting topic, Eric, gonna have to watch all of it now.
The only time I use a tool in the primer pocket is to remove a military crimp. Otherwise I use a primer pocket brush to clean it and as Eric said " leave it alone"
I have to uniform the primer pockets on ALL of my LC brass (5.56) because if I don't, the primer will not sit flush with the base, it will stick out.
I uniform primer pockets. Then I seat all of the way. Thin I do load development. MR Jerry mechhuleck. Points this out. Question, is your firing pin seating your primer before ignition? All I know is I’ve had great success. Thanks for the video
I do the same and use a hand seater to feel the bottom of the pocket.
That’s why I use the tool that I have. My rifle, my brass , my chamber, my powder , my primers. And……… Lots matter!
You had a video where you said stop neck turning
Use a shell holder, insert empty case, insert butt end of calipers through primer hole to get a relative primer pocket hole depth.
I don’t buy new brass, all my brass is at least once fired. I’ll clean them (primer pockets) out using the bit on my Lyman case prep station, but I don’t get too detailed. Then again, I’m not a competitive shooter, and going beyond 300 yards is very rare for me.
Interesting conversation but.... If you seat your primers fully, does it really matter? Any data to indicate it reduces ES? I am skeptical that you will see any repeatable data to justify this level of OCD.
That's my thoughts, without data we just have an academic discussion.
Seating fully? What does that mean? Seated to far in and you can run into poor ignition, or even a miss fire.
Exactly Greg isnt showing any kind of data. Seat your primers bottoming them out and clean the primer pockets. Greg doesnt shoot competively. He shoots minute of prarie dog. All this mumbo jumbo is to sell his $650 seater.
I really like the Franklin Armory hand primer because I can set my stop depth. No proud primers and no over seating.
Man... I haven't reloaded for long range in a few years due to a location change for work. When I was home in December I did some ladder testing with a .223 and .308 Rem TAC (not a precision rifle but pretty accurate). I wasn't happy with what I was getting, probably because I was chasing the lands, but I ran out of time. I'm moving back home and plan to pick up where I left off. I use a Sinclair hand priming tool and it's been good. I've also been cleaning pockets (not on my Lapua brass though). I like what I'm seeing on the Primal Rights site for higher round count priming. It looks like I can use my Dillon primer tube filler with it as well as the Lee Lee Autoprime shell holders.
I generally load 5 for each powder charge and 5 different charges for sighters and a ladder test at 200. Just the last week of of watching your videos has me rethinking about 1/2 of what I thought I knew. Including primer pocket uniforming...
So if you do not clean pocket your depth changes with residue
So, just seat the primer so that it is bottomed out in the cup. If recessed below the base, OK?
There’s been millions of rounds reloaded by people that cleaned the primer pocket with a variety of pocket cleaner, pocket knife, screw drivers ect, and never had issues.
Great video Erik! Wondering your thoughts on flash hole deburring
I think Erik stumbled on that bastard gremlin that creeps into every reloading room. It's not that important for the variance of bullet weight, or primer pocket differences, etc. Now, I am going to quote Erik here, "Consistency is useless if you're looking at the agg." Well, if we go by this mantra (which is undoubtedly only attributable to Erik) we must also state (as the 15th rule of universal thermodynamics) that the aggregate between primer pockets, bullet weight variance, butterfly farts in China, and temp variance in powder if we are to be completely honest with each other. :) Damn fine video guys. These are the discussions we should all be having. Such a vast amount of experience and knowledge here. I actually cut the pocket back out post firing with a thinger jigger that goes all the way into the pocket and cuts just the bottom of the primer pocket. I have no idea what the tolerance or variance is on this TJ (Thingy Jigger) but it will only work on a fired case and it takes maybe a .0001" of brass out of the pocket. I prime on a Dillon and make sure to really crush the shit out of that little booger just because that particular case pissed me off last week by causing a flyer. Yes, I sort my cases by what pisses me off with a flyer and which ones don't. #lapuarocks
What kind of action is that in the videos title picture?
Consistent firing pin travel =
Primer cups touching the bottom of the pocket
+ consistent primer cup dimensions
+ consistent primer pocket depth
+ consistent case rim thickness
+ consistent case headspace dimension
So this new tool doesn't seem to improve anything.
At which point the firing pin travel is important, is it worth it to uniform the rims thickness or sort the primers ? I will try to modify an headspace gage to measure the case from its shoulder to the primer, sort some cartridges by this measurment and take the velocities to get an answer.
I think your right!
Uniforming primer pockets is not important. Having the same depth in all your primer pockets is not important. Here, buy my $600 priming tool and seat primers in inconsistent pockets. I'm lost. Oh and ruining your brass from uniforming? Other f class shooters are getting 20+ firings while uniforming. So how is it ruining the brass?
@@buick4622 it's normal to get inconsistent primer seating depth if the primer pockets aren't the same. If you have more or less friction between the primer cup and the primer pocket (diameter, shape), it will resist more or less to the seating operation ---> inconsistent seating depth. I' ve made some tests that shown that this inconsistency comes mostly from this difference of friction, from the primer pocket and not from the primers. You can allso check and see that even with the same depth setting on the tool, if you seat the same primer again and again the primer will seat deeper and deeper each time. A solution could consist to sort your brass by primer seating depth.
Greg has created a perceived problem to sell a $650 priming tool. All the time at a load bench doesn’t matter if your skill behind the rifle sucks…I prefer to spend time shooting, reading wind, mirage, etc. It’s like the old baseball saying….. a $100 bat doesn’t fix a$1 swing. I understand the concepts being discussed but think the results are probably neglible.
You are spot on Nathan. I have watched friends of mine getting sucked into this never ending saga of new reloading tools. After spending $100s on new fancy tools there is little to no improvement in their shooting skills. Perhaps spending some time and money on your shooting skills may be the way to go. I have huge respect for Eric and have followed his advice for some time now.
Probably being the key word there.
This is all good, but what tool is he referring to that allows you to sort cases by primer pocket depth? Looks like he was going to introduce that. I’ll check out the full video.
Are we getting lost in a field of weeks?
Props to Greg for cultivating that badass Boone & Crockett worthy neck beard. I’m trying to decide whether a #4 double coil long spring or a Conibear would be better to trap that bad boy with. Either way it’s going straight to the taxidermist once I catch it.
What is your opinion on Nolser Custom Grade Brass? Do you think Lapua will one day have the 7mm rem mag brass? Excellent interview and information. Thanks.
I used to uniform primer pockets. I eventually stopped and it made zero difference so I never resumed.
Ensuring primers are bottomed out, thus having adequate anvil compression and having de-burred flash holes should be good to go for the avg reloader. Myself having encountered situations were a certain brand X of primers and type X brass cases would cause primers to not seat below flush without resorting to abnormal seating forces (noticeably indenting the primers). Thus began my journey with primer uni-formers to render case primer cup depth to within SAAMI specs (0.125 to 0.132) for a large primer; however, I had always assumed as per the SAAMI dwg that the base of the case was the reference point. However, here it mentions that reference datum is the top of the rim not the base of the case head due to manufacturing process! Anyone have ref, video links, etc on that specific portion of the manufacturing process?
You're on the right track of busting this grift. All other brass prep registers off the face of the case head. There is zero need to overcomplicate when SAAMI specs allow 8 to 13 thou tolerance deviation and manufacturers say that's good enough.
Thank you for sharing this. Very informative.
Look at Lee ACP priming system, which indexes off the base of the case at a consistent .003 see F class John
Doesn't the base of the case seat on the bolt of the firearm? Additionally, have you taken into consideration fluid dynamics of propulsion? I'm not a long range shooter but I would think the primer pocket and flash hole would act like a rocket motor. as long as you have reliable ignition and accurate alignment of the flash hole through the center of the powder (fuel) charge then you would have the most uniform and consistent burn of propellant. Also, aren't there variances in primer cup uniformity that may lead to variances in angle of alignment of the primer in the pocket? Again, I'm not an expert but I am curious as to what your input or thoughts might be on this theory I have.
Hello Erik.
Thanks for all the interviews and Info you get out to us shooters!
Question: how are you getting uniform primer seating if you dont clean your primer pockets when you prep your brass?
Good question
Is this why Remington tried the Electronic primer in the 90s so that there is no measurement or force that affects the round in the chamber? Will discussions like this bring that back?
If you mess around with primer pocket uniformity, you may as well uniform the flash hole too and totally ruin your brass.
You want the truth?!?!? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!! Ha ha... Don't worry Eric, we can handle the truth.
This is a very interesting topic and I would like to know more. I have always been mentored to use my hand seater to feel the threshold of a primer seating down, but it took me quite a while to feel a decent comfort level. It is a variable I've always known exists. Has there been any independent testing on the benefits of this tool? I applaud Greg for his creative invention. I would recommend him having some published independent testing. I apologize if this is already been done and I'm missing it.
I was watching one of your older vedios and you mentioned knowing German Salazar.
He got me into LR and helped me with my RPA Quadlock Palma biuld. (Alex Sitman and Alan Warner).
I lost track of him when he moved to Arizona and I've tried reaching out to him without success.
He had some health concerns when he lived down here in Florida and I wanted to know how he's been doing.
You have any info you're willing to share?
Thanks
If all the measurements are not the same. And I mean all. Your pissing in the wind. I deal with less than .0002 on machine work. so if you think that a primer is this consistent when is built your up in the night. The firing pin will have to hit it at the same depth from which it is seated first off. Just as you stated. Next the primer has to be 10000% correct when it is built. All dimensions. Including primer hull thickness and tensile strength. Other wise when the firing pin hits the shell it Shall be inconsistence. Where does it end.
Well, if you deal with 0.0002”, then you understand that everything has a tolerance. If you do a test and figure out that you have 0.004” tolerance in primer seating depth where rifle shoots best, it’s not hard to seat it in the center of that “node” and maintain good accuracy even though the tolerance is large.
With such large tolerances in components, it’s more important to test and find the center of the node so that the tolerance don’t stack against you. B
17:50 you mention reliable ignition. How do you measure the ignition, and how can you determine consistency of ignition? If there is no reliable way to measure ignition, and to know the factors related to its impact on accuracy, the entire discussion becomes moot. That is, match winners will be right, and match losers will be wrong. But why? I think the machining answer would be to have primer pockets with a ledge in them, which would stop the bottom rim of the primer cup, and include a preset depth to the bottom of the primer pocket, sufficient to provide your desired anvil "crush" number, which you said you want at about 0.002". Then you could eliminate variation due to primer seating friction on the side of the primer cup, since the degree of tension would not change the ultimate seating depth of the primer and anvil. A manufacturer, such as Alpha, would need to produce cases with cut flash holes, then the end user would need to use his personal primer pocket cutter to finish the job, indexing the cutter off the flash hole as "center". Then your primer pocket cutter would function as a primer pocket uniformer, indexing each time off of the flash hole as center. Perhaps the primer pocket cutter could include a flash hole cutter on its nose, and you could chuck the cases up individually, and cut your own flash holes and primer pockets. That would make it easy to get a manufacturer to provide test brass, since they already have a metric ton of cases without flash holes and primer pockets. Yeah, do that and get back to me. I think I want one cutter that cuts flash holes plus primer pockets, and another that just has a centering rod in the primer pocket cutter, so I don't risk wallowing out my flash holes; and guys that want small primers and small flash holes can use a different cutter than guys that want large pockets and large flash holes. If we do this, the only real variable in ignition for a given rifle is the internal construction of the primer. To work on this, you're going to have to talk to the lady in Lewiston that puts your primers together. I suspect that aspect is as good as it can get already, though.
Your standard deviations in your velocity.
Measure a primer depth. If you are splitting hairs .0005 is more than any primer manufacture can produce.
I understand trying to get the best absolute zero in tolerances, but how much does it really matter? Erik has said he will change his barrel if it opens up to a 1/4 MOA, for 99% of shooters, Learning to read the wind would be a better use of their time. But, Really, I'd like to see groups shot with every variable at zero, then change the primer depth .001 and see what the groups size difference is. For the 99.99% we'd never know if it was the primer, wind, use, etc. Basically I'm saying there is perfect, realistic, Professional(Erik), Combat effective, beginner, and DPRK. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining Erik's content is amazing, I just want to see the difference it would really make. I already shoot Lapua Brass and have never taken reloading to this level of concern, because if I miss I'm gonna blame myself anyway.
So everything in handloadi ng adds up to percentages gained towards accuracy right.So what would this add up to in as far as other load prepping.Would seating depths gain enough to warrant this tool? And yet another thing to warrant concern that may or not be that viable.
So you can't uniform primer pockets off head of case but you can measure your seating depth from it with this new tool....I'm confused.
Here, this should help with your confusion: th-cam.com/video/iGvltezkdEM/w-d-xo.html
You are lucking to find overhead doors, in Minnesota they are unavailable.
Measuring primer pocket depth (the slow way) couldn't you measure the rim thickness with calipers then the pocket depth from the base and plot out the difference?🤔
LOL, I don't think Erik agrees with his selling points.. It make sense though, the important aspect is how far is the powder from the primer
Im new at this. So are they saying dont touch the primer pocket at all during case prep?
So, is there a tool on the market that will properly measure the primer pocket depth and also measure the depth the primer is seated? If so, where can it be purchased?
We're releasing ours in the next week or two. ;) You can call your order in this week, or wait until its up on the site. primalrights.com
@@primalrights price?
@@gtroxlar8597 $500 for entire kit.
@@primalrights I'll call and talk to you Monday morning.
Wow. Good insights.
Same for me I only buy another cartridge if lapua has brass for it lol
Bingo, quality brass eliminates 99% of the issues.
So I thought that was the purpose of my priming tool was to put in the pockets till it hit bottom , now we need to crush it .002 or more . Couldn’t you just use a set of graduated shell holder to get that crush ?
I'm sure if primer seating depth was important then benchrest shooters would have been talking about it years ago. One thing he's not considering is the depth of the brass through the flash hole area of the base. Next we'll have a tool to machine the inside base of the case.
WELL, I SOLVED THE RIM THICKNESS PROBLEM. That is why I developed something specifically for the CPS that does not effect the headspace or anything else. I now get primer seating depth within .0005, that is five ten thousandth of an inch no matter what the rim thickness is. I told Greg this and he told me that only maybe one percent of people worry about rim thickness. I find that extremely hard to believe. Why would someone want to prime a bunch of cases , say 100, and then have to sort them by primer seating depth and be left with maybe 50 cases that are within .001 and the other 50 you use for something else? Instead, with my mod for the CPS they will ALL be withing .0001. I call BS. So eventually I am going to release the plans for anyone to do this to their CPS.
Great discussion guys! Hey big question for you. What do we do when a large amount of carbon and whatever else builds up at the bottom of the primer pocket? I have had some that really had a large amount of that crud. Wouldn’t that effect the consistency of how the primer seats into the pocket of the crud was thick enough to partially or fully collide with the bottom of the primer once seated into the pocket? You guys have the know how, thanks a million for sharing so much with us out here floundering around.:))
exactly we have all been sold on uniforming. The cutter will clean that up. I would love to see MV SDs when all else is equal. SDs on all dimensions would also be nice to know. I hope that was not covered in that minute I was up grabbing a notebook.
I don't understand why a small primer hole is better than a large one
Yesterday I've read that the flame is longer with a smaller primer hole. (ignition of the whole powder charge in a shorter time). That's why Pindell&Pallisamo took the .220 russian case to build their famous wildcat, the 6mmPPC
Do a test... Get some Alpha or Lapua brass and load everything the same except primer seating depth-- same lot of everything -- brass, primers, bullets, powder. Different seating depths... Accuracy at 100, 200, 300 etc yards.
Agree with you Erik. You lost me. Just gonna run Lapua brass and worry about the basics. Can’t keep up with this.
I feel like we can build and amp like electronic priming tool
There are insects flying in the line of fire; how can insect density be measured and controlled so to take another possible variable out of bullet flight? I can't hit the target but I have perfect primer seating depth.
So the information in this video is invalid because you're a terrible shot who can't hit his target? Strange logic.
You said you were not a machinist....LOL.....LIES!! Like the video!
A machinist is trained to make almost anything (given the right machine and tooling), Erik makes barrel tuners.
I only call myself a hobby machinist but I have done plenty of machining professionally in a fabrication shop and in some ways I might know more about machining (all unimportant to making barrel tuners) than Erik.
Real machinists probably don't toot their own horn enough but I know and I bet Erik knows when we meet a real one.
It's very hard to call yourself a machinist without formal training. All of my training was informal. I think Erik has had some formal training but very specific.
If you don't humble yourself in the machine shop, someone will do it for you.
I'm calling you out on this. Even Lapua brass has at least .005 variance in primer pocket depth. So now Greg said rim thickness varies up to .005 also and I agree. So if you were to uniform your primer pockets to say .131 deep they would ALL be .131 deep, as opposed to .129.5 to 131.5 as Lapua comes. So now all your primer pockets are .131. How do you get off saying you are introducing more variance. You are STILL and always will be at the mercy of the rim thickness, no matter how you look at it. So Greg, even with your CPS and your Primewhere, which I own both, you are still indexing off the top of the shellholder. So, in reality, if you were to leave it alone and NOT uniform your primer pockets, you would have the variance of the rim thickness PLUS the variance of the primer pocket depth!!! After uniforming the primer pockets you only have the variance in rim thickness!! Better to have only one variance than two. Think about this long and hard. You are mistaking my friend.
So many tests that have conflicting results, it’s hard to make any sense of it.
It's all talk and no play. I have yet to see an actual test which proves primer seating depths make any substantial difference. On the contrary, I've seen actual tests done where primers were seated at different depths and absolutely nothing changed.
I feel this guy is doing a sales pitch NOT education.
is this true of the dillon swager?
First! Looking forward to the video.
The video had been out for a few days on his "believe the target" channel
Is being concerned about primer seating depth something only a competitive F-class shooter should worry about?
Competitive shooters worry about it because we are trying to get the most Precision out of our rifles. So in reality, anyone looking for precision should look into it regardless of what the rifle is used for.
@@ErikCortina could primer seating depth be the hidden gremlin which divides the reloading community over the Saterlee test?
What Erik is saying around the 14 minute mark is ringing true to me! I’m hearing all this and it’s giving me anxiety! Reloading is starting to feel like work instead of a hobby that gives me an edge over my buddies which brings me a whole bunch of joy!
i have a 6.5 x55 se a true se case i got 6 fired cases i de primed them they were thinner primers and primmer pockets i got a pocket cutter truer to standard ones i try to my hand it was put on drill and 6 were good then i got used 6.5 x 55 used or reloaded cases from older mauser rifle the dealer sold to other person i had to shorten necks the reloads were on top of each other a clump on target different powder types and loads,, i shot the 6 rounds & neck sided them the bolt closed the other older cases did not with out shorten cases re size cases! this rifle i took to a nra test shoot 5 rounds a 100% i put this in a case & back in truck locked up and waited hours no one even matched it i changed firearms it was so close the computer target system had me on same rifle at 100 and 200 yards but 600 yard i used a 22-250 it was all over wind and it was light bullets i had blood clots and other stuff since i was hurt bad to in my back and shoulder!
You are over thinking this. I'm going to join your forum. I would bet the anvil in the primer is off more than you think.
You are completely correct!
@ 12:25 my point exactly
I understand the idea but it's just digging a hole and putting rabbits in it. I want to see it tested in both benchrest and 1000 yrd to see the results. I'm already saying nothing will be found.
Nothing will be found? How much money are you willing to put on this if proven wrong? 😁
I'm reading Glenn Newick's book "ultimate rifle accuracy" wrtitten in 1989. I'm surprised to see what was the accuracy level and how close it was vs nowadays. It would take years before proving any accuracy improvements with such tools. As you said the proof is the results in competitions (benchrest, f-class) and not numbers given on a website or any TH-cam channel.
@@ErikCortina how much is a 6 pack worth in Texas? I want to see proof on target not theoretical accuracy increases 😒
@@br4713 to my mind if there was something to it the benchrest guys would have worked it out yrs ago