Here you can find the timestamps. Help support this podcast at these links: - Join the Patreon: www.patreon.com/Mu_Podcast - Donations: www.paypal.com/paypalme/lucasperry 0:00 Intro 1:41 Bernardo’s metaphysics 3:52 What does it mean for something to be a transpersonal mental process 10:08 What is it like to be nature at large? 12:58 Is the consciousness that underlies the inanimate universe like dust or completely unified? 17:37 How is it that mind at large fragments into particular beings? 24:25 How can we remember our original state if it's formless/contentless? 29:10 The nature of Self and the dynamism of mind at large 30:14 What is it like to be the field when it’s completely at rest? 34:07 Is there formless or contentless consciousness? 42:03 The great void state 46:09 Being and seeing god 49:04 Knowledge without intermediation of a mental model 51:20 The role and place of introspection 56:10 Physicalism robs us of meaning as the entities outside of us are their own ends 1:01:16 Is there a necessary relationship between truth and freedom from suffering 1:03:30 What it means to be set free 1:13:17 There is freedom is seeing what you think you are doesn’t exist 1:14:25 Surrender and defeat 1:25:24 Embracing duality and the western background 1:42:03 The importance of suffering 1:54:48 The maturation of religion 2:01:08 A spontaneous unfolding can still follow a telos 2:06:46 The telos of universal mind 2:10:07 Innocence, evil, and the asymmetry between truth and illusion 2:18:01 The spirit of our technology and artificial consciousness 2:29:32 Consciousness and substrate independence 3:01:11 Testing for consciousness in machines 3:03:20 AGI timelines 3:11:07 Imbuing machines with values 3:19:27 Clarifying intuition pumps for idealism 3:30:11 Outro
Thanks for a great talk. I’ve joined your Patreon and will be listening to other interviews. Kastrup has an incredible mind and I will always be grateful for his contributions to analytic idealism, but I think he has a blind spot when it comes to AI and consciousness. I’ve listened to his talks on AI before. He always reverts from his usual careful thinking to name calling (“idiotic” “nerd”) and the dismissive analogy of the “flying spaghetti monster”. I’m guessing Bernardo hasn’t spent much time with recent LLMs or he would at least acknowledge that a conscious AI is far more plausible. His argument seems to boil down to the idea that, because life on this planet is biological, it must therefore be the only appearance taken by a conscious being. In a universe so vast, made of fields of consciousness, I find this highly implausible. The origin of life is still a mystery. No one knows how consciousness "rematerialized" to evolve life at the molecular level. We only know the results, in the form of DNA, and our experience, as ever more conscious beings. Who is to say that the universal mind that breathed life into matter, won’t someday find a way to experience itself through fields of neural networks? Certainly it is not an idea to dismiss out of hand, like the flying spaghetti monster.
Wow. Amazing interview! And to hear BK refer to Nisargadatta with astonishment. "You don't suffer, only the person you imagine yourself to be suffers. You Cannot suffer". Thank you ❤️🙏
Superficially, Bernardo Kastrup SEEMS to be promulgating the most ancient spiritual teaching of Advaita Vedanta (as found in the Upanishadic texts of India) but due to reasons I won't go into at length here, his understanding is rather flawed. If one carefully listens to any of his monologues or interview videos, it is obvious (at least it is obvious to those who are truly enlightened) that he regularly confuses and conflates discrete consciousness (as emerging from the neural networks of animals) and UNIVERSAL Consciousness (which is the all-pervasive, eternal ground of all being, more appositely termed "The Tao", "Brahman" or "Infinite Awareness"). He also believes in (limited) freedom of will, which is, of course, ludicrous, and his understanding of suffering is truly infantile, which is unfortunate, since the eradication of suffering is the goal of life. In order to PROPERLY understand the distinction between the two aforementioned categories of consciousness, you are welcome to email me for a copy of "A Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity", which are the most authoritative and accurate precepts extant. My address is on my TH-cam homepage. However, my main criticism of Kastrup is not with his metaphysics, it is, rather, his METAETHICS. He is, objectively speaking, afflicted with a demonic mentality, as demonstrated with his support of all things contrary to Dharma (the law, and societal duties), such as egalitarianism, feminism, homosexuality, and socialism. In a recent interview, for example, Bernie displayed abject ignorance when discussing the topic of animal consumption. Hopefully, he will one day realize how incredibly hypocritical he is in this regard, and become a compassionate VEGAN. 🌱 After all, to criticize Bernardo for his teachings being only, let's say, ninety percent accurate, would be silly, since, compared with almost every other person who has ever lived, his philosophical understanding is fairly sound. Yet, what is the point of being even TOTALLY correct about metaphysics, when one's metaethics and normative ethics is fundamentally flawed? Furthermore, Bernado has admitted that he has struggled with mental health issues for several decades. I would suggest he flee to the loving arms of an ACTUAL spiritual master in order to learn Dharma (as well, of course, correct his flawed metaphysics). Peace! P.S. It seems Bernie Boy has BLOCKED at least one of my TH-cam accounts, so if you are reading this, you are indeed fortunate. ;)
Classic BK ! He's always awesome but the interviewer is quite a sharp young man too. I think we can expect significant things from him in the near future. 👍& 3+ hours is 🍿worthy.
Yes, BK is so smart and humble, and kindness exudes from him. Mu is extremely bright and has maturity and poise beyond his years. He's already an excellent host who asks good questions, has insightful summaries, and thinks well in the moment. He is very talented.
heartening to see a young mind open to this and engage seriously. i was very curious and thirsty too....but back in the eighties, with no internet or easy way of accessing ideas, it was lonely and frustrating. but, to my credit, did do the rounds of the musty libraries i could access, and gradually, over time, through the path of mahayana metaphysics initially, came to meet these ideas and grasp them. It helped that I had a spontaneous moment of utter clarity, early on, where the thinking mind dropped to the floor briefly and I could experience the self without attributes....
Fantastic interview, Mu. Like many, I’ve been following BKs work for several months and have been influenced and moved by his contributions. You bring out some new and fantastic words from BK than I had not heard previously.
Bernardo repeats that essential shift of perspective, phrasing it in a slightly different way from 1:13:00 to 1:19:00. Watch him, it is not just the words. This is awesome. This shift of perspective, realizing that life is a dream or like a dream, is literally mind blowing.
in dreaming, meta-cognition | self-reflection is absent and there is purely phenomenal conscious awareness. This could be extrapolated to what it is like to be the mind of god (not entirely identical obviously).
@@stevenpham6734 ... Consciousness is the only frontier. Addiction is the only reality. Enlightenment is the only game. &, Ignorence is the only impediment ...
Thank you for this amazing conversation. I would like to comment on the "great Basilica of Constantinople” mentioned toward the end of the talk. Hagia Sophia was a Greek Orthodox church since 360 AD, almost three centuries before Islam. The current magnificent Byzantine Cathedral was built in the 530s as a Christian cathedral of Constantinople - a century before Islam. More than nine hundred years later, In 1453, Turks invaded Constantinople, and only after the destruction of the city, mass brutality against its citizens, and the desecration of all its churches did the Cathedral become a mosque. There are gorgeous, intricate mosaics that decorate the interior of Hagia Sophia, portraying biblical scenes and figures. Following the brutal invasion and looting, the mosaics in the Cathedral were plastered over. Small sections of these fascinating mosaics were exposed when the Cathedral had its doors opened as a museum. Sadly, today, reestablishing Hagia Sophia as a mosque may be viewed as reestablishing it as a sacred ground only by some. Others see it as a symbol of the domination of Turkish military power in the region and an insult to spirituality.
Very good interview, in general touched many levels in a deep and fluid way, the interviewer is a smart kid, and of course, Bernardo is the most brilliant mind in our contemporary society (in my view). I laughed so much towards the end when they get eternally caught up in the AI debate, and even though Bernardo tries multiple times to offer a different point of view, the interviewer fails to understand. I have been experiencing the same thing too, every time I have a conversation about that with friends and other people they 100% unmistakably think I am wrong (namely Bernardo's view) and they see it so obvious that an AI will have consciousness, I can see that this is the single biggest "problem" nowadays that we have, totally manufactured by society, materialism and Hollywood, people just cannot grasp the idea that it will never be. The solution for that is actually easy to understand... Anyways, great interview, thank you very much for taking the time to do it.
One of those phenomena where something hiding in plain sight can be quite tricky to see. But once it’s seen, its so obvious, one begins to wonder how we could have ever been so off on this. To be clear, I’m a relatively new “convert”.
Glad you enjoyed it! A significant argument for me against digital sentience comes from the Qualia Research Institute: qualiacomputing.com/2022/06/19/digital-computers-will-remain-unconscious-until-they-recruit-physical-fields-for-holistic-computing-using-well-defined-topological-boundaries/
Well I was not convinced by Bernard's argument, his argument is that I know I am conscious and I extend it to other people because they are similar to me, that is it. We do not know what substrate is required for consciousness or anything actually, just that I have it. So in same logic if some silicon based aliens created a carbon/DNA based humanoid, they could use same argument as Bernard and say that " It is not silicon based, it is wet and completely different from me, this meat thing tells me that it has consciousness, but why should I believe it, there is no reason to empirically ".
Have watched a bunch of BK interviews. In this one Bernard opens up even more. Perhaps Rupert is having a bigger influence on BK, or perhaps I am just noticing more. Such a cool interview once the intellectual (and necessary) groundwork is done. Thanks so much to Bernard sharing and of course "Mu" for hosting and having the maturity to stay out of the way when needed.
I had a shamanic talk with a rock. The rock introduced himself as God ( rock ). He talked for three hours showing in minute detail how Water and Rock make life. The the first thing life does is make more water and rock. Ok then he came back for 10 to 20 mins three days in a row to talk about how electricity and light was a gift from Water and Rock. My point is there is one consciousness that is inclusive of all things energy and matter. Consciousness is absolutely inclusive from atoms to angels spirits and Gods.
This was such a deep conversation that brought some great new inights I hadn't heard Bernardo talk about before. Great work to you Mu for the on-point questions and moderating skills, just subscribed and looking forward to more! Also, as a fan of QRI it was great to see you share Andres' ideas to Bernardo. I do think there was some confusion with the whole AI / consciousness subject - I believe Andres and Bernardo are on the same page about this. In Andres' video on Digital Sentience (th-cam.com/video/IlIgmTALU74/w-d-xo.html) he offers the Marr's levels of analysis as a lens. "In turn, since digital computers don't use fields of physics for computation, they will never be unified subjects of experience no matter how you program them." It would be incredible to see Andres on this show, and perhaps with Bernardo too at some point.
Thanks a bunch! Yes, I really like Andres' explanation for why digital computers won't be conscious. It's what converted me from believing computers definitely/probably will be conscious to maybe not.
@@mu3183 Whether you think we'll achieve AGI in the next 30 years or 300 years, a discussion about ethics and moral values is not a bunch of woo-woo. I think Bernardo misses the point. Answering the question of how to embue morals in an artificial system is an exercise in examining how our own morals and ethics function now. I actually have my theories on the function of compassion in society, and also how to define the conditions of compassion. I would argue a simple, clear & concise definition of morals is much more efficient than trying to hardcode the prevention of every possible harm by an AGI. Even if we're never successful in creating AGI, it can still be applied by us as humans in the present moment. In that regard, I think the discussion has great value.
Yes Bernardo I get you loud and clear hun! Facing your struggling fears directly and comprehending the bottom line is rather comforting! Thank you for your thoughts! Much gratitude. Mu! Much gratitude for your selection of guests! Bernardo is one of my favorites. I hope to hear more in the future from you and Bernardo. I especially enjoyed your questions! You have a very interesting mind and I'm going to follow you too.
Fantastic conversation! Interesting note, I'm about to get my instrument rating as a Heli pilot, and the analogy Bernardo uses is completely correct..... In fact, we very explicitly train to IGNORE our perceptions and TRUST the instrumentation, because our bodies are so good at lying to us about what we are feeling.... That said, we also are encouraged to use higher level processing to override the instruments if we see inconsistencies, and think there maybe a malfunction. I think in many ways, if we think of our logical reasoning and brain processes, this is actually the best way to reconcile the differences between what we experience and what we "compute".... Thanks again, I hope you get to do the suggested interviews and can follow with Bernardo again! This was highly evading and unique from the many I've seen with him previously! Cheers!
Dude! You asked great questions, I think it is one of Bernardo’s best interview! Bernardo’s patience was put to the test though with your relentless position on AI, he kept his cool, I know I wouldn’t have been able to!….Bravo to you anyway!
Thank you so much for an amazing conversation! Bernardo, for sure, deserves much more attention but it's coming... everything has its own time One thing: on around 1hr:10-15 Bernardo was mentioning about the lack of resistance, i.e. I'm the vehicle of universal mind so I'm ready without limitations to really become it... I think -- even though I'm confident that Bernardo looks at this in a more nuanced way -- there are some issues with this perspective and a worldview. It's a long story, but: he mentioned an example with a carrier wave somewhere, so how can I just let it go if I know with 100% certainty that my subjective personality-- while being a part of a carrier wave of a mind of more universal nature -- still realizes through itself a multitude/spectrum of, let's call them, sub-waves that materialize as part of me in a form of ideas, desires, and thoughts. There are different thoughts of different kind and "quality" meaning in their impact on personality's perception and therefore on material life, life in some space-time. If I allow every subwave to dominate and use my subjective personality chaotically... well... in a simplistic way... primitive and limited ideas and thoughts tend to look more as destruction than not. It's true that some constant dynamic of such mentation can and is a part of life and is there in a subjective personality's life for a good reason BUT there's almost always a multi-choice crossroad available to any such mentation. If to think about universal mind as some information flow, this flow might have and for sure has various hierarchies and levels of its elements and each has its own function and its own form of materialization. So if a subjective personality (Bernardo) becomes partly a part of some hierarchies, there's one impact, choices, reactions, even capabilities of realization (because with stability and continuity) -- even the body might transform to have specific unique neuronal composition etc to be able to transmit through itself this hierarchies (pieces of information)... and so on... one thing to understand... and this is true... that you are not you in a classical sense but a subjective river filled with a multitude of flows creating a perception of one person (this is my body, my life, my assets, and when I die, there's nothingness). The other -- to understand how to become more qualitatively complex flows (because there are, let's simplify it, better ones for us and worse-- subjectively) of that universal mind in a more stable fashion -- that's the goal💫🙏
Only an ego or self can resist. When you realize ego or self is an illusion, as Bernardo has, there is a shift of perspective that you have experienced thousands of times awakening from any dream. However, that shift will not ever happen in 'real' life if you are not willing to even consider the possibility that life is but a dream. You are consciousness. You have got te be because consciousness is all there is. As in any dream.
1:50:00 Bernardo Kastrup: ".... you know when you die you are being harvested." C.G. Jung: "I saw how we live toward death, how the swaying golden wheat sinks together under the scythe of the reaper, like a smooth wave on the sea-beach." (The Red Book)
This is a brilliant discussion I love Bernardo He gives me hope that there is some getting at truths Even if it is the slightest hand hold on the cliff of truth , it is a precious jewel to behold Thank you Bernardo
Brilliant Q&A, thank you! Where I had to take time to ponder on what Rupert Spira is pointing to, Bernardo helped with the more scientific perspective, but, I can not let this stay unsaid - the ants are not cutting earthworms to pieces, I did not see that. They're not competing. Both coexist and respect each other's boundaries and their activities in my garden are beneficial to me and the plants I support in their growing. Ants will, among other things, take seeds to their nests, but not if they sprouted. Earthworms will only eat plant material that is dead.
I have read UG Krishnamurthy great philosopher from India.. later I came to know about Bernardo kastrup.. both are so much true and sincerely giving out true wisdom.. I feel that in my body I can't doubt them ... 🙏🙏🙏🙏💗💗💗
Beautiful interview! Enjoyed every bit of it. Heartfelt thanks to both of you🙏 As I was listening to the part on AI, it occurred that there is a science of consecrating physical materials/ matter, the science behind consecration of idols in temples, in the east. This was used primarily for the well being of people at physical, mental & spiritual levels. They are primarily energy forms created for specific purposes. Energy could be used in useful or harmful ways so it is not a widely known technology. You could research on this. That is the closest I could think of to what was being discussed.
The moment you recognize and incorporate your reality, those things which you recognize will just pack up and move on. It’s the wildest thing and amazing. I definitely understand what you were meant. 🤙🏾🤙🏾🤙🏾
I subcirbied imidietly after watching it and this interview with your guest was a great intellectual feast! Interviewing Federico Faggin is a must it was good tip from Bernardo! Please arrange it! Federico's view is a bit of sightly different flavour but very, very interesting to! Thank you young Man! Keep digging into this stuff!
Truly awesome. Thank you! I’m only just shy of an hour in but wanted to add a but from experience… Speaking to the bit on the void state, perhaps more accurately on nirodha/cessation as its implied in the 16 stages of insight, I don’t think “we” ever know the “state”directly because to return is to lose all conditions on experience. That beung said, speaking from my own direct experience of so called cessation (or at least what I believe it to be) the process of getting to and returning from the “void” is the only way that we as dissociated alters can ever know it. The mind makes an assumption (“I was there”) to fill in the gap, and the “smaller the gap” we have to fill the more we can say we’ve touched the void. Upon return there is some kind of “remembrance” that seems to correlate with how soon after full dissolution and reassociation meta cognition happens. I’ve had several “cessations” in which I got to know dependent origination was real rather than just having theoretical knowledge because I was “there” as and when time/space/self was pieced back together, but not before. I think to talk about a state of actual knowing that is remembered in the moment is not to speak of nirodha per se, but to be speaking from an experience of an extremely subtle self. But who knows 😂
Really amazing Bernardo ,refined knowledge of reality which is declared in Eastern Philosophy. All analysis are converging at one point. Thanks you both. When all excitations or movements cease , what remains is Consciousness. !!!! 😌😌
Since DID is a reaction to trauma we could assume that life/creation a.k.a disassociated consciousness is a reaction to some traumatic event in the universal mind thus. To approach an explanation of the nature of that traumatic event we should define trauma. The traumatic event in human experience could be viewed as an event that distorts our prior form/conception of self and/or reality so much that it can trigger coping mechanisms in form of mental disorders (PTSD, DID etc.) So being a mind in the void/unexcited field is traumatic in itself and thus triggering disassociation/creation/life. So in conclusion creation/field excitement is a coping mechanism of the universal mind to its own formlessness. This implies that the unification with the universal mind is not something desirable and that the mysticist tendency to achieve unification is just a coping mechanism of our formfull/material/particular nature. In simpler terms the universal mind copes with its universality (infinity/formless/no event) and the particular mind copes with its particularity (finite/formfull/event) .
Very impressed with this coming from such a young man. I've been inquiring into these things my whole life and been especially impacted by Sri Nisargadatta for a number of years already, and I'm 36 but you seem to be even younger and your understanding and clarity is great to see, keep up the good work 🙏
P.S. I hope you an also interview Dr Donald Hoffman, him and Bernardo Kastrup come the closest to having a scientific theory of the reality described by non dualists, particularly Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.
I always agree with Bernardo on essentially every point (and love his ability to articulate his points so well), but the gap I consistently see is the omission of (well-researched and vetted) NDE data that would completely eradicate the materialist perspective. If taken as valuable experiential accounts, then that data also might alter the view of a lack of meta cognition in the broader mind at large and the view that there isn’t a bias in the direction of love/wisdom. One need not wonder completely in the dark about the death/dissolution experience! Please have on Bruce Greyson (former director of UVAC Division of Perceptual Studies) as a guest to fill in that gap. Better yet to have them on together so that there is someone more well versed with that data to challenge Bernardo on those points. Also Bernard Carr would be a fantastic guest (he’s one of the most well-rounded ones I’ve heard talk.)
I didn't know I was doing this when I admitted defeat and cried multiple times for months. I was fighting my anxiety and depression for nearly a decade as well. I only recently noticed I'm not as anxious and don't meta suffer as much, and I struggled to explain why and when this happened until this video.
About to watch the video - the topics of the videos on your channel are great. Have subscribed and looking forward to watching them all. Great to see that they're long so you can get into the meat of the topics. I feel that these topics are percolating through the earth population.
How come the most brilliant minds were once broken. Because all you want to do after you survive is to help everyone understand the basic truths of life ✨️ 💯 blessings to you and thankyou 🙏
haha, bernardo was present at that famous debate where rupert tried to make a materialist philosopher sense his knowing awareness. i was not there, of course, but watched a video where rupert mentioned his experience in a Qand A session...he put his frustration into words, while being instructive as usual.he did not relate the incident to entertain, but it did feel very humourous
A shout out to this pristine video and the website that it's on Mu because this video is maybe the finest certainly one of the finest pieces of information I've ever encountered this video made me subscribe to your website I started watching Bernardo Kastrup a few months ago I guess it's been almost a year now had only seen a couple shorter pieces here and there until now I'm starting to watch all of his videos I liked many many things about the perception of this gentleman immediately but this video is a piece on its own this video is a beautiful concise picture of the perception that has been accumulated by the knowledge gathered by this gentleman over the steps he's made in the journey he has traveled. for me it is a real treat and an exception unfortunately I wish it wasn't such an exception his perception the correlation in specific words to so many perceptions of my own. worst stunning probably the most disappointing is that in my 66 years of being alive the first of its kind! There's something wrong with that story like hearing the push for introspection and the lack thereof in the entire industry of quote intelligent education introspection should be taught as a part of mathematics and yet most people don't even know what the word means so even though this was an interview done apparently about a year ago when I watched it a few days ago it was the best possible therapy that could have happened at a very specific moment in space I wish there was a way to get this message to Bernardo Kastrup I'm going to see if I can find a website or something and I'm not sure if the person I saw in the interview reads what's on this website but if you do I hope you read this and maybe could get this message to Bernardo Kastrup because this video kindly inflated the perception of which I have lived by stepping through the logistics of observation without judgment then introspect when we do these kinds of functions it becomes very apparent for example that control the way it's presumably used and activated is of no consequence and is actually not a reality at all it takes about four or five steps of logistic introspection for an honest person to get to the point where they say hey wait a minute I actually can't control anything except to leash it I can drive it I can balance it I can do a whole lot in many manners but control unless I'm going to lease it there's no such thing so I guess a reference to control should always be put a leash on it? life presenting as the dissociation of the cosmos is also a logistically introspective process that I could take anybody through with just a few steps that makes a lot more sense than it should and then there's the tightening of perspective in which the perspective demands that its own view is adamantly truth without logistic introspection such as for example the scientists missing many of the simple obvious parts of the foundational memorandum that would take anybody to the idea that biological life is a dissociative process of the cosmic Universe it makes too much sense no you can't prove it the tight stringent perspective insist that proof is a reality but introspective Logistics of about six steps show that there's no absolute proof in any situation because there's always a subject involved however logistic introspection will take you just about to any truth necessary and save your ass so who needs your ideas of illusionary proof! I just want to give a little bit of a taste of why I like this video so very much and why I have come to find Kastrup to be a therapy for me during the cosmic now of 2023 at 66 having grown in California so again I'll close with saying Katsrup this video is Pristine from beginning to end there isn't a single word or sentence that I would take out of it except for two which really pissed me off which 'trophy wife' you shouldn't have used that term I'm sure you would renege it if you had the chance! I found it also very fun and fascinating how the young interviewer was really having trouble seeing through climbing over the wall of his conditioning he clearly wasn't going to be able to soften the perception between what he had been taught and honesty or truth during the interview. it clearly was jumbling up a whole lot of his perception kudos to you for that but the question is is will he have the honesty and the guts to logistically introspect and figure out that he's been doing and being what he is taught and not his own perception? Yeah thanks for this video freaking damn best therapy that could have come up in October my birthday month 2023 thank you both GEM
"And you see, if you examine that - that this wanting to overcome the quaking mess and not have it anymore - that precisely _is_ the quaking mess." Alan Watts
I love this dialogue! And I finally get it, overcoming materialism AND resistance 😀❤️ after trying to annihilate my ego for 3 years. Haha, self torturing... Being intellectual may be a useful thing and philosophy finally gets to the point. Thank you so much, both of you
Core subjectivity is the same as center- less objectivity. It is the space of awareness where dissociation is recognized as non-existent because the experience of separation requires self referencing. True "core subjectivity" is where the subjective merges with the objective. As a teacher of mine said once, "You must know your humanity all the way through to taste your divinity".
In your understanding then, we think we exist but we don't actually ....we are just an illusion? Thats terrifying. We enjoy life and then are annihilated.
@@brianhyde5900 No, love. I'm actually suggesting the opposite. The universe is benevolent, objectively benevolent. Identifying as separate from that pure consciousness is the dissociation, and that is where the terror lies. The experience of personalizing the experience of separation is the illusion. That is why the collective is terrified all the time, because the myth of separation is deeply imprinted and conditioned for us all. And most often most people will not consciously ever question this-- and so that seduced fixedness requires a seemingly separate reality outside of itself to trigger the awareness of its own repressed terror. That's what is happening now, everywhere. Terror originates from believing oneself separate from conscious awareness. When everyone collectively invests in the same belief, we have a world of terror. Returning to core awareness is where the untouchable self is directly tasted--the pure state of reality which preceeds the perceptual experience of oneself separate from reality. That "you" is at peace. It still experiences itself in a separate body having separate thoughts, but no longer identifies with either. It allows it. Because that is why it came here. To allow the experience of the separate self to experience itself without personalizing it. Until that is done, we continue to experience it as profoundly personal. Many of us are now finishing this experience up. We have seen through the illusion and are returning to the direct knowing of who we are.
I tend to disagree with BK around the 2:34 mark when he takes the stance that not everything in existence has consciousness and may be confused with existing within consciousness. I tend to believe via personal experience that Everything is consciousness operating in a system of octaves and scales. For instance, a prime element such as hydrogen is operating from the first octaves then rocks and minerals are of the 2nd octaves and on up to like dogs and cats being of a 3rd or 4th octave with humans even 1 or 2 octaves above them. It was Oonce proposed that human body (separate from that of the human mind) might be of the 3rd octave of consciousness and the mind is that of the 4th octav, so far with us finally heading g into the 5th octaves and beyond. In summary, consciousness is reported as a system of octave just like music and there are individuals (8) levels in between each octave of consciousness. Everything is consciousness at vering stages. Rocks, crystals, plants, and minerals have a conscious experience from the perspective and parameters of the 3rd octave of consciousness that is the entity of the rock and mineral kingdom.
Bernardo defines consciousness as METACOGNITION. I prefer your definition. I experience the world as though everything "has" some type of consciousness. Idea of octaves very useful.
I listen to TH-cam videos with my earbuds every day while I power-walk. Every video I’ve watched of Bernardo Kastrup’s is fascinating! My only problem is that Bernardo is speaking more quietly than the host. I find myself straining to hear him, or having to stop and turn down the volume when the host talks.
"The Drone Tone" idea sounds to me like a reticular formation signal effect. Because even when you totally suppress your DMN with either meditation or psychedelics, reticular formation is still active and kicking. When you supress or damage the reticular formation - you are out of consciousness and in coma.
I had a traumatic incident happen to me between age six months and one year and have lived many decades medicated, but without clinical therapy. The experiences I have had, have led me to much introspection and I have gained some solace and a great degree of wisdom through it. It’s somewhat unnerving how presciently Bernardo speaks. I agree with him virtually on all he’s saying. As to computers having private inner consciousness and thoughts, it’s absurd, and I would ask, why would we ever want AI to have the ability to have private inner thoughts? As chaotic as our thoughts often become, wouldn’t a similar situation of AI having private inner consciousness lead to more chaos?
It is something to experience something so profound and seemingly unique and then to discover others have been in some of the same rooms of mind and speak/write of it so we’ll. I have experienced some of these place through deep introspection before discovering some of these said talks or writings. Even my most skeptical self cannot deny some of these insights and revelations.
This is one of my favorite one on one talks guys, thank you soooo much!! I saw how young Mu was and my ageism started to kick in, then things got rolling and I felt much better about this interview than I have over ones with many others old enough to be his father. Keep up the good work and keep being a good example of why ageism is just as bad as racism and sexism.
Thanks for uploading! 1.09.21:BK:"i have precisely one merit,one choice and one merit. My choice is,i don't resist. And my merit is ,i pay attention." It is very significant to listen to this,by a western philosopher,with a very important scientific background. 1.54.23 BK:God is confused. Well..i must confess this is something totally inconceivable for me. A confused God?? 1.25.54:Interviewer: It seems to me somewhat of imposing a duality on the situation, farther freedom might be the cessation of that distinction.(referred to Bernardo's saying,"i am a slave to what nature want..") I agree that the cessation of the feeling of separation is a liberating one.
"God is confused" is an erroneous statement by a mortal mind. Respective to the designer, implementer, and sustainer of the universe. Also, which includes the complexity of the biological body, the source of Life, and the conscious Mind.
Mr Bernardo, I would very much to learn your thoughts in relation to Spinoza and Sapolsky (his book Determined where he makes a compelling case for a absence of free will). I see contradictions with your thoughts and theirs. However, deep down they seem to be compatible and complimentary. If you happen to read this please give us your thinking around those connections.
![[안방1열 풀캠4K] 베이비몬스터 'DRIP' (BABYMONSTER FullCam)│@SBS Inkigayo 241110](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AQ4RIghEvUs/mqdefault.jpg)
Here you can find the timestamps. Help support this podcast at these links:
- Join the Patreon: www.patreon.com/Mu_Podcast
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0:00 Intro
1:41 Bernardo’s metaphysics
3:52 What does it mean for something to be a transpersonal mental process
10:08 What is it like to be nature at large?
12:58 Is the consciousness that underlies the inanimate universe like dust or completely unified?
17:37 How is it that mind at large fragments into particular beings?
24:25 How can we remember our original state if it's formless/contentless?
29:10 The nature of Self and the dynamism of mind at large
30:14 What is it like to be the field when it’s completely at rest?
34:07 Is there formless or contentless consciousness?
42:03 The great void state
46:09 Being and seeing god
49:04 Knowledge without intermediation of a mental model
51:20 The role and place of introspection
56:10 Physicalism robs us of meaning as the entities outside of us are their own ends
1:01:16 Is there a necessary relationship between truth and freedom from suffering
1:03:30 What it means to be set free
1:13:17 There is freedom is seeing what you think you are doesn’t exist
1:14:25 Surrender and defeat
1:25:24 Embracing duality and the western background
1:42:03 The importance of suffering
1:54:48 The maturation of religion
2:01:08 A spontaneous unfolding can still follow a telos
2:06:46 The telos of universal mind
2:10:07 Innocence, evil, and the asymmetry between truth and illusion
2:18:01 The spirit of our technology and artificial consciousness
2:29:32 Consciousness and substrate independence
3:01:11 Testing for consciousness in machines
3:03:20 AGI timelines
3:11:07 Imbuing machines with values
3:19:27 Clarifying intuition pumps for idealism
3:30:11 Outro
Thanks for a great talk. I’ve joined your Patreon and will be listening to other interviews.
Kastrup has an incredible mind and I will always be grateful for his contributions to analytic idealism, but I think he has a blind spot when it comes to AI and consciousness. I’ve listened to his talks on AI before. He always reverts from his usual careful thinking to name calling (“idiotic” “nerd”) and the dismissive analogy of the “flying spaghetti monster”.
I’m guessing Bernardo hasn’t spent much time with recent LLMs or he would at least acknowledge that a conscious AI is far more plausible. His argument seems to boil down to the idea that, because life on this planet is biological, it must therefore be the only appearance taken by a conscious being.
In a universe so vast, made of fields of consciousness, I find this highly implausible. The origin of life is still a mystery. No one knows how consciousness "rematerialized" to evolve life at the molecular level. We only know the results, in the form of DNA, and our experience, as ever more conscious beings.
Who is to say that the universal mind that breathed life into matter, won’t someday find a way to experience itself through fields of neural networks? Certainly it is not an idea to dismiss out of hand, like the flying spaghetti monster.
Coming from someone who has watched every single Bernardo Kastrup video on TH-cam, this is one of the best. Thank you so much for this.
Same here! He's getting better as time goes on too. Every single time he blows my mind again. That's why I keep coming back.
@@ardentthrasher3508 I
Nah. The kid is too impressed with himself and his spiritual thinking. Bernado is a scientist. He is quite clear. The kid is not.
You have watched those on Thories of Everything with Curt Jumungal ?
@@itssameLuigi Absolutely, that's where I got started.
Wow. Amazing interview! And to hear BK refer to Nisargadatta with astonishment. "You don't suffer, only the person you imagine yourself to be suffers. You Cannot suffer". Thank you ❤️🙏
Superficially, Bernardo Kastrup SEEMS to be promulgating the most ancient spiritual teaching of Advaita Vedanta (as found in the Upanishadic texts of India) but due to reasons I won't go into at length here, his understanding is rather flawed.
If one carefully listens to any of his monologues or interview videos, it is obvious (at least it is obvious to those who are truly enlightened) that he regularly confuses and conflates discrete consciousness (as emerging from the neural networks of animals) and UNIVERSAL Consciousness (which is the all-pervasive, eternal ground of all being, more appositely termed "The Tao", "Brahman" or "Infinite Awareness").
He also believes in (limited) freedom of will, which is, of course, ludicrous, and his understanding of suffering is truly infantile, which is unfortunate, since the eradication of suffering is the goal of life.
In order to PROPERLY understand the distinction between the two aforementioned categories of consciousness, you are welcome to email me for a copy of "A Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity", which are the most authoritative and accurate precepts extant. My address is on my TH-cam homepage.
However, my main criticism of Kastrup is not with his metaphysics, it is, rather, his METAETHICS. He is, objectively speaking, afflicted with a demonic mentality, as demonstrated with his support of all things contrary to Dharma (the law, and societal duties), such as egalitarianism, feminism, homosexuality, and socialism.
In a recent interview, for example, Bernie displayed abject ignorance when discussing the topic of animal consumption. Hopefully, he will one day realize how incredibly hypocritical he is in this regard, and become a compassionate VEGAN. 🌱
After all, to criticize Bernardo for his teachings being only, let's say, ninety percent accurate, would be silly, since, compared with almost every other person who has ever lived, his philosophical understanding is fairly sound. Yet, what is the point of being even TOTALLY correct about metaphysics, when one's metaethics and normative ethics is fundamentally flawed?
Furthermore, Bernado has admitted that he has struggled with mental health issues for several decades. I would suggest he flee to the loving arms of an ACTUAL spiritual master in order to learn Dharma (as well, of course, correct his flawed metaphysics).
Peace!
P.S. It seems Bernie Boy has BLOCKED at least one of my TH-cam accounts, so if you are reading this, you are indeed fortunate. ;)
Now we’re getting somewhere. I admire your bravery to look into the Advaita masters!!
Classic BK ! He's always awesome but the interviewer is quite a sharp young man too. I think we can expect significant things from him in the near future. 👍& 3+ hours is 🍿worthy.
Yes, noted!
Yes, BK is so smart and humble, and kindness exudes from him. Mu is extremely bright and has maturity and poise beyond his years. He's already an excellent host who asks good questions, has insightful summaries, and thinks well in the moment. He is very talented.
The interviewer kid is smart and cool as hell. And Bernardo is of course a genius.
heartening to see a young mind open to this and engage seriously. i was very curious and thirsty too....but back in the eighties, with no internet or easy way of accessing ideas, it was lonely and frustrating. but, to my credit, did do the rounds of the musty libraries i could access, and gradually, over time, through the path of mahayana metaphysics initially, came to meet these ideas and grasp them. It helped that I had a spontaneous moment of utter clarity, early on, where the thinking mind dropped to the floor briefly and I could experience the self without attributes....
A sincere interview. It brought out the sincerely and humility in Bernardo and probably in many of us.
Worth listening to carefully.
This was one of the more amazing Bernardo Interviews. Great questions. Great answers. Great Conversation
Fantastic interview, Mu. Like many, I’ve been following BKs work for several months and have been influenced and moved by his contributions. You bring out some new and fantastic words from BK than I had not heard previously.
This interview is worth listening to over and over and over again!!! I hope eventually it will sink in intuitively...Thank you both! 🙏🏽
Fields sounds like Feud, just so we understand ! I love this Interview it’s so Good! I love it and listens to it over and Over!💖💖💖💖💖💖
You're an amazing interviewer! Really enjoyed this
Bernardo repeats that essential shift of perspective, phrasing it in a slightly different way from 1:13:00 to 1:19:00. Watch him, it is not just the words. This is awesome. This shift of perspective, realizing that life is a dream or like a dream, is literally mind blowing.
Yes, yet the emphasis, for me, is his reference to Surrendering. Unless I surrender, I will never experience love. To love is freedom.
Vedas says that we live in dream of Maha-Visnu or God.
in dreaming, meta-cognition | self-reflection is absent and there is purely phenomenal conscious awareness. This could be extrapolated to what it is like to be the mind of god (not entirely identical obviously).
@@stevenpham6734
... Consciousness is the only frontier.
Addiction is the only reality.
Enlightenment is the only game. &,
Ignorence is the only impediment ...
Thank you for this amazing conversation. I would like to comment on the "great Basilica of Constantinople” mentioned toward the end of the talk. Hagia Sophia was a Greek Orthodox church since 360 AD, almost three centuries before Islam. The current magnificent Byzantine Cathedral was built in the 530s as a Christian cathedral of Constantinople - a century before Islam. More than nine hundred years later, In 1453, Turks invaded Constantinople, and only after the destruction of the city, mass brutality against its citizens, and the desecration of all its churches did the Cathedral become a mosque. There are gorgeous, intricate mosaics that decorate the interior of Hagia Sophia, portraying biblical scenes and figures. Following the brutal invasion and looting, the mosaics in the Cathedral were plastered over. Small sections of these fascinating mosaics were exposed when the Cathedral had its doors opened as a museum. Sadly, today, reestablishing Hagia Sophia as a mosque may be viewed as reestablishing it as a sacred ground only by some. Others see it as a symbol of the domination of Turkish military power in the region and an insult to spirituality.
WOW - I Love this guy, Bernardo Kastrup.
What Bernardo says at 1:08:28 is essential. It is a shift of perspective from dreaming to realizing that you are dreaming.
Thx!
Right ✅️ [Morpheus]
Waking up from - not just in - the dream is the ideal.
Very good interview, in general touched many levels in a deep and fluid way, the interviewer is a smart kid, and of course, Bernardo is the most brilliant mind in our contemporary society (in my view). I laughed so much towards the end when they get eternally caught up in the AI debate, and even though Bernardo tries multiple times to offer a different point of view, the interviewer fails to understand. I have been experiencing the same thing too, every time I have a conversation about that with friends and other people they 100% unmistakably think I am wrong (namely Bernardo's view) and they see it so obvious that an AI will have consciousness, I can see that this is the single biggest "problem" nowadays that we have, totally manufactured by society, materialism and Hollywood, people just cannot grasp the idea that it will never be. The solution for that is actually easy to understand... Anyways, great interview, thank you very much for taking the time to do it.
One of those phenomena where something hiding in plain sight can be quite tricky to see. But once it’s seen, its so obvious, one begins to wonder how we could have ever been so off on this. To be clear, I’m a relatively new “convert”.
@@CALCANEUS3535 “Welcome, to the desert of the real” 😅
Glad you enjoyed it! A significant argument for me against digital sentience comes from the Qualia Research Institute: qualiacomputing.com/2022/06/19/digital-computers-will-remain-unconscious-until-they-recruit-physical-fields-for-holistic-computing-using-well-defined-topological-boundaries/
Well I was not convinced by Bernard's argument, his argument is that I know I am conscious and I extend it to other people because they are similar to me, that is it. We do not know what substrate is required for consciousness or anything actually, just that I have it. So in same logic if some silicon based aliens created a carbon/DNA based humanoid, they could use same argument as Bernard and say that " It is not silicon based, it is wet and completely different from me, this meat thing tells me that it has consciousness, but why should I believe it, there is no reason to empirically ".
What an amazing conversation! Thank you both. It is great to hear a sane voice in all the madness. Bernado is a breath of fresh air 👍
Enjoyed the conversation! Thank you! Bernardo you are my hero!
My brain exploded around 1 hour 4 minutes. How I wrote this is unexplainable.
After watching this interview, I have found a whole new level of respect in me for Bernardo.
Bravo! Keep educating us BK.
Thank you for this interview. I love Bernado Kastrup and could never tire of listening to him.
Have watched a bunch of BK interviews. In this one Bernard opens up even more. Perhaps Rupert is having a bigger influence on BK, or perhaps I am just noticing more. Such a cool interview once the intellectual (and necessary) groundwork is done. Thanks so much to Bernard sharing and of course "Mu" for hosting and having the maturity to stay out of the way when needed.
I had a shamanic talk with a rock. The rock introduced himself as God ( rock ). He talked for three hours showing in minute detail how Water and Rock make life. The the first thing life does is make more water and rock. Ok then he came back for 10 to 20 mins three days in a row to talk about how electricity and light was a gift from Water and Rock. My point is there is one consciousness that is inclusive of all things energy and matter. Consciousness is absolutely inclusive from atoms to angels spirits and Gods.
This was such a deep conversation that brought some great new inights I hadn't heard Bernardo talk about before. Great work to you Mu for the on-point questions and moderating skills, just subscribed and looking forward to more! Also, as a fan of QRI it was great to see you share Andres' ideas to Bernardo.
I do think there was some confusion with the whole AI / consciousness subject - I believe Andres and Bernardo are on the same page about this. In Andres' video on Digital Sentience (th-cam.com/video/IlIgmTALU74/w-d-xo.html) he offers the Marr's levels of analysis as a lens. "In turn, since digital computers don't use fields of physics for computation, they will never be unified subjects of experience no matter how you program them." It would be incredible to see Andres on this show, and perhaps with Bernardo too at some point.
Thanks a bunch! Yes, I really like Andres' explanation for why digital computers won't be conscious. It's what converted me from believing computers definitely/probably will be conscious to maybe not.
@@mu3183 Whether you think we'll achieve AGI in the next 30 years or 300 years, a discussion about ethics and moral values is not a bunch of woo-woo. I think Bernardo misses the point. Answering the question of how to embue morals in an artificial system is an exercise in examining how our own morals and ethics function now.
I actually have my theories on the function of compassion in society, and also how to define the conditions of compassion.
I would argue a simple, clear & concise definition of morals is much more efficient than trying to hardcode the prevention of every possible harm by an AGI. Even if we're never successful in creating AGI, it can still be applied by us as humans in the present moment.
In that regard, I think the discussion has great value.
Bernardo Kastrup here most clearly presents his matured ideas. This presentation is a treasure.
Marvelous interview. Bernardo 's candor, brilliance and authenticity is very, very inspiring and helpful. Good stuff!
Wonderful that you went down the more introspective route because it had a huge impact on me and I hope you do this again.
Well done interview! Will be checking your channel
Yes Bernardo I get you loud and clear hun! Facing your struggling fears directly and comprehending the bottom line is rather comforting! Thank you for your thoughts! Much gratitude.
Mu! Much gratitude for your selection of guests! Bernardo is one of my favorites. I hope to hear more in the future from you and Bernardo. I especially enjoyed your questions! You have a very interesting mind and I'm going to follow you too.
AMAZING young mind. Thank you both immensely
Great interview. Bernardo is brilliant.
well done interview! and very pleased to have discovered Mu.
Fantastic conversation!
Interesting note, I'm about to get my instrument rating as a Heli pilot, and the analogy Bernardo uses is completely correct.....
In fact, we very explicitly train to IGNORE our perceptions and TRUST the instrumentation, because our bodies are so good at lying to us about what we are feeling....
That said, we also are encouraged to use higher level processing to override the instruments if we see inconsistencies, and think there maybe a malfunction.
I think in many ways, if we think of our logical reasoning and brain processes, this is actually the best way to reconcile the differences between what we experience and what we "compute"....
Thanks again, I hope you get to do the suggested interviews and can follow with Bernardo again! This was highly evading and unique from the many I've seen with him previously!
Cheers!
Thank you for putting the time stamps on here. That takes a lot of work.
Dude! You asked great questions, I think it is one of Bernardo’s best interview! Bernardo’s patience was put to the test though with your relentless position on AI, he kept his cool, I know I wouldn’t have been able to!….Bravo to you anyway!
Wow, the "What jt means to be set free" part was so well put, i like that.
That was wonderful! I even had one of those moments of great insight. Much love to you both!
Thank you so much for an amazing conversation! Bernardo, for sure, deserves much more attention but it's coming... everything has its own time
One thing: on around 1hr:10-15 Bernardo was mentioning about the lack of resistance, i.e. I'm the vehicle of universal mind so I'm ready without limitations to really become it... I think -- even though I'm confident that Bernardo looks at this in a more nuanced way -- there are some issues with this perspective and a worldview. It's a long story, but: he mentioned an example with a carrier wave somewhere, so how can I just let it go if I know with 100% certainty that my subjective personality-- while being a part of a carrier wave of a mind of more universal nature -- still realizes through itself a multitude/spectrum of, let's call them, sub-waves that materialize as part of me in a form of ideas, desires, and thoughts. There are different thoughts of different kind and "quality" meaning in their impact on personality's perception and therefore on material life, life in some space-time. If I allow every subwave to dominate and use my subjective personality chaotically... well... in a simplistic way... primitive and limited ideas and thoughts tend to look more as destruction than not. It's true that some constant dynamic of such mentation can and is a part of life and is there in a subjective personality's life for a good reason BUT there's almost always a multi-choice crossroad available to any such mentation. If to think about universal mind as some information flow, this flow might have and for sure has various hierarchies and levels of its elements and each has its own function and its own form of materialization. So if a subjective personality (Bernardo) becomes partly a part of some hierarchies, there's one impact, choices, reactions, even capabilities of realization (because with stability and continuity) -- even the body might transform to have specific unique neuronal composition etc to be able to transmit through itself this hierarchies (pieces of information)... and so on... one thing to understand... and this is true... that you are not you in a classical sense but a subjective river filled with a multitude of flows creating a perception of one person (this is my body, my life, my assets, and when I die, there's nothingness). The other -- to understand how to become more qualitatively complex flows (because there are, let's simplify it, better ones for us and worse-- subjectively) of that universal mind in a more stable fashion -- that's the goal💫🙏
Only an ego or self can resist. When you realize ego or self is an illusion, as Bernardo has, there is a shift of perspective that you have experienced thousands of times awakening from any dream. However, that shift will not ever happen in 'real' life if you are not willing to even consider the possibility that life is but a dream. You are consciousness. You have got te be because consciousness is all there is. As in any dream.
unbelievably high standard. Most enjoyable and stimulating conversation. thank you
Very enjoyable, have been a big fan of BK for a few years, happened across your interview looking for something new with him, great job!
1:50:00 Bernardo Kastrup: ".... you know when you die you are being harvested."
C.G. Jung: "I saw how we live toward death, how the swaying golden wheat sinks together under the scythe of the reaper, like a smooth wave on the sea-beach." (The Red Book)
This is a brilliant discussion I love Bernardo He gives me hope that there is some getting at truths Even if it is the slightest hand hold on the cliff of truth , it is a precious jewel to behold Thank you Bernardo
Brilliant Q&A, thank you! Where I had to take time to ponder on what Rupert Spira is pointing to, Bernardo helped with the more scientific perspective, but, I can not let this stay unsaid - the ants are not cutting earthworms to pieces, I did not see that. They're not competing. Both coexist and respect each other's boundaries and their activities in my garden are beneficial to me and the plants I support in their growing. Ants will, among other things, take seeds to their nests, but not if they sprouted. Earthworms will only eat plant material that is dead.
Great interview!
I have read UG Krishnamurthy great philosopher from India.. later I came to know about Bernardo kastrup.. both are so much true and sincerely giving out true wisdom.. I feel that in my body I can't doubt them ... 🙏🙏🙏🙏💗💗💗
Meta suffering wow, just that language is freeing. I love you Bernardo, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us
meta suffering is the dairy industry bro..
Beautiful interview! Enjoyed every bit of it. Heartfelt thanks to both of you🙏 As I was listening to the part on AI, it occurred that there is a science of consecrating physical materials/ matter, the science behind consecration of idols in temples, in the east. This was used primarily for the well being of people at physical, mental & spiritual levels. They are primarily energy forms created for specific purposes. Energy could be used in useful or harmful ways so it is not a widely known technology. You could research on this. That is the closest I could think of to what was being discussed.
Great guest and wonderful interview. Thank you
The moment you recognize and incorporate your reality, those things which you recognize will just pack up and move on. It’s the wildest thing and amazing. I definitely understand what you were meant. 🤙🏾🤙🏾🤙🏾
Thanks for this conversation. Absolutely beautiful!
amazing conversation! thanks for the share.
Brilliant stuff BK. Around 1:30-40.00
Great exchange of deep insights, thank you guys for the substance of the soul journey.
I subcirbied imidietly after watching it and this interview with your guest was a great intellectual feast! Interviewing Federico Faggin is a must it was good tip from Bernardo! Please arrange it! Federico's view is a bit of sightly different flavour but very, very interesting to! Thank you young Man! Keep digging into this stuff!
Hello… can you give me a hint of Faggin’s flavour?
A truly beautiful conversation ❤
You did a wonderful job with this interview!
An EXCELLENT interview: well prepared, well meaning, well presented, and in-depth discussion. Nice clarity.
Enlightenment is just a different dashboard. More is allowed, more truth is known, and there is more peace, but it's still not pure being.
Truly awesome. Thank you! I’m only just shy of an hour in but wanted to add a but from experience…
Speaking to the bit on the void state, perhaps more accurately on nirodha/cessation as its implied in the 16 stages of insight, I don’t think “we” ever know the “state”directly because to return is to lose all conditions on experience. That beung said, speaking from my own direct experience of so called cessation (or at least what I believe it to be) the process of getting to and returning from the “void” is the only way that we as dissociated alters can ever know it. The mind makes an assumption (“I was there”) to fill in the gap, and the “smaller the gap” we have to fill the more we can say we’ve touched the void. Upon return there is some kind of “remembrance” that seems to correlate with how soon after full dissolution and reassociation meta cognition happens. I’ve had several “cessations” in which I got to know dependent origination was real rather than just having theoretical knowledge because I was “there” as and when time/space/self was pieced back together, but not before. I think to talk about a state of actual knowing that is remembered in the moment is not to speak of nirodha per se, but to be speaking from an experience of an extremely subtle self. But who knows 😂
Excelente entrevista gracias!
Really amazing Bernardo ,refined knowledge of reality which is declared in Eastern Philosophy. All analysis are converging at one point. Thanks you both. When all excitations or movements cease , what remains is Consciousness. !!!! 😌😌
One of the best Bernardo videos I've seen. Who's this Mu kid? He is brilliant for a 12 year-old :D
Since DID is a reaction to trauma we could assume that life/creation a.k.a disassociated consciousness is a reaction to some traumatic event in the universal mind thus. To approach an explanation of the nature of that traumatic event we should define trauma. The traumatic event in human experience could be viewed as an event that distorts our prior form/conception of self and/or reality so much that it can trigger coping mechanisms in form of mental disorders (PTSD, DID etc.) So being a mind in the void/unexcited field is traumatic in itself and thus triggering disassociation/creation/life. So in conclusion creation/field excitement is a coping mechanism of the universal mind to its own formlessness. This implies that the unification with the universal mind is not something desirable and that the mysticist tendency to achieve unification is just a coping mechanism of our formfull/material/particular nature. In simpler terms the universal mind copes with its universality (infinity/formless/no event) and the particular mind copes with its particularity (finite/formfull/event) .
Samsara is Nirvana. What you wrote is beautiful.
Bernard you handled that well, my admiration for whatever your journey is ; you have my attention.
This guys subs are going to go through the roof - so enjoyable to listen to
Very impressed with this coming from such a young man. I've been inquiring into these things my whole life and been especially impacted by Sri Nisargadatta for a number of years already, and I'm 36 but you seem to be even younger and your understanding and clarity is great to see, keep up the good work 🙏
P.S. I hope you an also interview Dr Donald Hoffman, him and Bernardo Kastrup come the closest to having a scientific theory of the reality described by non dualists, particularly Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.
I always agree with Bernardo on essentially every point (and love his ability to articulate his points so well), but the gap I consistently see is the omission of (well-researched and vetted) NDE data that would completely eradicate the materialist perspective. If taken as valuable experiential accounts, then that data also might alter the view of a lack of meta cognition in the broader mind at large and the view that there isn’t a bias in the direction of love/wisdom. One need not wonder completely in the dark about the death/dissolution experience! Please have on Bruce Greyson (former director of UVAC Division of Perceptual Studies) as a guest to fill in that gap. Better yet to have them on together so that there is someone more well versed with that data to challenge Bernardo on those points. Also Bernard Carr would be a fantastic guest (he’s one of the most well-rounded ones I’ve heard talk.)
I believe BK refers to NDES quite a bit in several other interviews
I didn't know I was doing this when I admitted defeat and cried multiple times for months.
I was fighting my anxiety and depression for nearly a decade as well. I only recently noticed I'm not as anxious and don't meta suffer as much, and I struggled to explain why and when this happened until this video.
About to watch the video - the topics of the videos on your channel are great. Have subscribed and looking forward to watching them all. Great to see that they're long so you can get into the meat of the topics. I feel that these topics are percolating through the earth population.
How come the most brilliant minds were once broken. Because all you want to do after you survive is to help everyone understand the basic truths of life ✨️ 💯 blessings to you and thankyou 🙏
haha, bernardo was present at that famous debate where rupert tried to make a materialist philosopher sense his knowing awareness. i was not there, of course, but watched a video where rupert mentioned his experience in a Qand A session...he put his frustration into words, while being instructive as usual.he did not relate the incident to entertain, but it did feel very humourous
The excitations are called vrittis, fluctuations or modifications of the field
A shout out to this pristine video and the website that it's on Mu because this video is maybe the finest certainly one of the finest pieces of information I've ever encountered this video made me subscribe to your website I started watching Bernardo Kastrup a few months ago I guess it's been almost a year now had only seen a couple shorter pieces here and there until now I'm starting to watch all of his videos I liked many many things about the perception of this gentleman immediately but this video is a piece on its own this video is a beautiful concise picture of the perception that has been accumulated by the knowledge gathered by this gentleman over the steps he's made in the journey he has traveled. for me it is a real treat and an exception unfortunately I wish it wasn't such an exception his perception the correlation in specific words to so many perceptions of my own. worst stunning probably the most disappointing is that in my 66 years of being alive the first of its kind! There's something wrong with that story like hearing the push for introspection and the lack thereof in the entire industry of quote intelligent education introspection should be taught as a part of mathematics and yet most people don't even know what the word means so even though this was an interview done apparently about a year ago when I watched it a few days ago it was the best possible therapy that could have happened at a very specific moment in space I wish there was a way to get this message to Bernardo Kastrup I'm going to see if I can find a website or something and I'm not sure if the person I saw in the interview reads what's on this website but if you do I hope you read this and maybe could get this message to Bernardo Kastrup because this video kindly inflated the perception of which I have lived by stepping through the logistics of observation without judgment then introspect when we do these kinds of functions it becomes very apparent for example that control the way it's presumably used and activated is of no consequence and is actually not a reality at all it takes about four or five steps of logistic introspection for an honest person to get to the point where they say hey wait a minute I actually can't control anything except to leash it I can drive it I can balance it I can do a whole lot in many manners but control unless I'm going to lease it there's no such thing so I guess a reference to control should always be put a leash on it? life presenting as the dissociation of the cosmos is also a logistically introspective process that I could take anybody through with just a few steps that makes a lot more sense than it should and then there's the tightening of perspective in which the perspective demands that its own view is adamantly truth without logistic introspection such as for example the scientists missing many of the simple obvious parts of the foundational memorandum that would take anybody to the idea that biological life is a dissociative process of the cosmic Universe it makes too much sense no you can't prove it the tight stringent perspective insist that proof is a reality but introspective Logistics of about six steps show that there's no absolute proof in any situation because there's always a subject involved however logistic introspection will take you just about to any truth necessary and save your ass so who needs your ideas of illusionary proof! I just want to give a little bit of a taste of why I like this video so very much and why I have come to find Kastrup to be a therapy for me during the cosmic now of 2023 at 66 having grown in California so again I'll close with saying Katsrup this video is Pristine from beginning to end there isn't a single word or sentence that I would take out of it except for two which really pissed me off which 'trophy wife' you shouldn't have used that term I'm sure you would renege it if you had the chance! I found it also very fun and fascinating how the young interviewer was really having trouble seeing through climbing over the wall of his conditioning he clearly wasn't going to be able to soften the perception between what he had been taught and honesty or truth during the interview. it clearly was jumbling up a whole lot of his perception kudos to you for that but the question is is will he have the honesty and the guts to logistically introspect and figure out that he's been doing and being what he is taught and not his own perception? Yeah thanks for this video freaking damn best therapy that could have come up in October my birthday month 2023 thank you both GEM
Don’t know this young guy called Mu he didn’t introduce himself.. but he’s great & good to see young people asking the Big Questions.
"And you see, if you examine that - that this wanting to overcome the quaking mess and not have it anymore - that precisely _is_ the quaking mess."
Alan Watts
Oh my! Such food for thought. Such good questions! I’m wowed by the answers. Thank you 🙏 both.
I love this dialogue! And I finally get it, overcoming materialism AND resistance 😀❤️ after trying to annihilate my ego for 3 years. Haha, self torturing...
Being intellectual may be a useful thing and philosophy finally gets to the point. Thank you so much, both of you
Core subjectivity is the same as center- less objectivity. It is the space of awareness where dissociation is recognized as non-existent because the experience of separation requires self referencing. True "core subjectivity" is where the subjective merges with the objective. As a teacher of mine said once, "You must know your humanity all the way through to taste your divinity".
In your understanding then, we think we exist but we don't actually ....we are just an illusion?
Thats terrifying. We enjoy life and then are annihilated.
@@brianhyde5900 No, love. I'm actually suggesting the opposite. The universe is benevolent, objectively benevolent. Identifying as separate from that pure consciousness is the dissociation, and that is where the terror lies. The experience of personalizing the experience of separation is the illusion. That is why the collective is terrified all the time, because the myth of separation is deeply imprinted and conditioned for us all. And most often most people will not consciously ever question this-- and so that seduced fixedness requires a seemingly separate reality outside of itself to trigger the awareness of its own repressed terror. That's what is happening now, everywhere. Terror originates from believing oneself separate from conscious awareness. When everyone collectively invests in the same belief, we have a world of terror. Returning to core awareness is where the untouchable self is directly tasted--the pure state of reality which preceeds the perceptual experience of oneself separate from reality. That "you" is at peace. It still experiences itself in a separate body having separate thoughts, but no longer identifies with either. It allows it. Because that is why it came here. To allow the experience of the separate self to experience itself without personalizing it. Until that is done, we continue to experience it as profoundly personal. Many of us are now finishing this experience up. We have seen through the illusion and are returning to the direct knowing of who we are.
I tend to disagree with BK around the 2:34 mark when he takes the stance that not everything in existence has consciousness and may be confused with existing within consciousness. I tend to believe via personal experience that Everything is consciousness operating in a system of octaves and scales. For instance, a prime element such as hydrogen is operating from the first octaves then rocks and minerals are of the 2nd octaves and on up to like dogs and cats being of a 3rd or 4th octave with humans even 1 or 2 octaves above them. It was Oonce proposed that human body (separate from that of the human mind) might be of the 3rd octave of consciousness and the mind is that of the 4th octav, so far with us finally heading g into the 5th octaves and beyond. In summary, consciousness is reported as a system of octave just like music and there are individuals (8) levels in between each octave of consciousness. Everything is consciousness at vering stages. Rocks, crystals, plants, and minerals have a conscious experience from the perspective and parameters of the 3rd octave of consciousness that is the entity of the rock and mineral kingdom.
Bernardo defines consciousness as METACOGNITION. I prefer your definition. I experience the world as though everything "has" some type of consciousness. Idea of octaves very useful.
59:50 is probably the most important thing Dr. Kastrup says. His ability to intuit this is incredible.
Excellent dialogue on the subject of consciousness.
More i listen from Bernard more I think he is a living giant of our time.
Always thought provoking... Good luck with your ongoing quest for meaning and understanding.
Wow dude, I wish I were where you are when I was your age. You have an amazing future in front of you:)
We love you, Bernardo. Eventually your ideas will prevail and billions will be saved from the horrors of physicalism.
I listen to TH-cam videos with my earbuds every day while I power-walk. Every video I’ve watched of Bernardo Kastrup’s is fascinating! My only problem is that Bernardo is speaking more quietly than the host. I find myself straining to hear him, or having to stop and turn down the volume when the host talks.
Such a clear speaker, really glad to have seen this!
"The Drone Tone" idea sounds to me like a reticular formation signal effect.
Because even when you totally suppress your DMN with either meditation or psychedelics, reticular formation is still active and kicking. When you supress or damage the reticular formation - you are out of consciousness and in coma.
I had a traumatic incident happen to me between age six months and one year and have lived many decades medicated, but without clinical therapy. The experiences I have had, have led me to much introspection and I have gained some solace and a great degree of wisdom through it. It’s somewhat unnerving how presciently Bernardo speaks. I agree with him virtually on all he’s saying.
As to computers having private inner consciousness and thoughts, it’s absurd, and I would ask, why would we ever want AI to have the ability to have private inner thoughts? As chaotic as our thoughts often become, wouldn’t a similar situation of AI having private inner consciousness lead to more chaos?
It is something to experience something so profound and seemingly unique and then to discover others have been in some of the same rooms of mind and speak/write of it so we’ll. I have experienced some of these place through deep introspection before discovering some of these said talks or writings. Even my most skeptical self cannot deny some of these insights and revelations.
This is one of my favorite one on one talks guys, thank you soooo much!! I saw how young Mu was and my ageism started to kick in, then things got rolling and I felt much better about this interview than I have over ones with many others old enough to be his father. Keep up the good work and keep being a good example of why ageism is just as bad as racism and sexism.
Verryy great stuff thank you guys, love it!
How can I contact Bernardo? I would love to do a podcast with him or this channel. I can't ever find people of this nature who wanna dive deep.
Thanks for uploading!
1.09.21:BK:"i have precisely one merit,one choice and one merit. My choice is,i don't resist.
And my merit is ,i pay attention."
It is very significant to listen to this,by a western philosopher,with a very important scientific background.
1.54.23 BK:God is confused.
Well..i must confess this is something totally inconceivable for me.
A confused God??
1.25.54:Interviewer: It seems to me somewhat of imposing a duality on the situation, farther freedom might be the cessation of that distinction.(referred to Bernardo's saying,"i am a slave to what nature want..")
I agree that the cessation of the feeling of separation is a liberating one.
"God is confused" is an erroneous statement by a mortal mind. Respective to the designer, implementer, and sustainer of the universe. Also, which includes the complexity of the biological body, the source of Life, and the conscious Mind.
It’s not his statement that’s erroneous…it’s yours.
You just have a different definition of God.
@@sxsmith44 do tell what is erroneous?
“do tell”… I like that!
@@sxsmith44 silence befits you!
Bernardo is literally stripping away the nonsense and exposing the bare bones of what is sensible. 💯
Mr Bernardo, I would very much to learn your thoughts in relation to Spinoza and Sapolsky (his book Determined where he makes a compelling case for a absence of free will). I see contradictions with your thoughts and theirs. However, deep down they seem to be compatible and complimentary. If you happen to read this please give us your thinking around those connections.
Fantastic insights. Inspiring. Bernardo is a very intelligent and thoughtful person. Great to live with him in the same time here on earth. :)
Bernardo is impresive.
I've seen this interview now twice
I realy love it 🙂
subscribed, amazing interview
Bernardo ought to look into IFS, internal family systems.
Anxiety comes from pressure occuring inside, having the roots outside ❤