I have such a narrow jaw and severe sleep apnea for my age. If I ever did MSE I’d definitely want to pair it with MSDO, but everything is so expensive. Ron I need to schedule a chat with u I been pushing it off😭 your videos are packed with such great info. I wish there were more MSDO providers
Such a great channel for me to keep tabs on while I'm on my mewing and expansion journey. Much of the content I can't directly relate to, but it's still interesting to listen to as there's titbits I can learn from and appreciate. All in all your channel sort of keeps me company. Good man.
At what point in the MSE process do you do the MSDO expansion? Great video btw Ron, glad you're investigating MSDO some more, I wonder why the big MSE doctors haven't done more in this regard.
This is one of the very few times I wished I lived in the states. There are few providers in Canada and they are all less experienced compared to those in the states. I think no one does MSDO
Hey Ronald I love the idea of Mse+ facemask and msdo I really do. Problem is that widening of the nose in my opinion its not ideal at all it can change you’re look so much that I find it not worth it. I have the money for this but that’s what holds me back. I’m thinking of doing bimax,then you might ask that will affect my nose as well. There are a few surgeons that cut a muscle to avoid any change of the nose during surgery, few doctors do this the doctor im referring is in Italy. I would do mse if only there was a doctor that understood the facial tissues and how to avoid to widen the nose. In theory there should be a way to cut the tissue during mse treatment, but no Doctor from what I have seen has done it on any patient. Really sucks many would say it’s not a big deal if the nose widens a little but I really care I love my nose now I don’t wanna risk it. At the moment I’m thinking bimax in Italy. Would really love to here your thoughts on the nose widening affect on aesthetics. Love all you’re content ❤
@@prathamchopra560 give me your insta id or contact no. I have full list about all these airway centered and hollistic, neuromuscular dentist and even the best of them
I always thought the only real solid option was something like MSDO and MSE, and a face mask. But I initially also flirted with the idea of something like a BSSO or IMDO as well to complete the whole "thing" (lateral expansion of the maxilla and mandible and also forward/saggital expansion of the mandible and maxilla) The BSSO/IMDO was to get some more forward movement of the chin and more room for the tongue and other structures out of the throat (I didn;t like how MSDO cuts in between the teeth, preferred the BSSO option of cutting behind the teeth)... but let then I realised, through chatting to dentists who practice expansion, that the mandible is generally trapped back by the maxiilla, and the mandible will follow the maxilla, so if the maxilla is expanded latterally it will "free" the mandible to come to wear it needs to be etc (I'm sure you've heard many people saying this) I quickly realised that BSSO/IMDO probably wasn't as important generally as a lateral expansion technique, which is good because those BSDO/IMDO type procedures never sat well for me as they don't do much to the mandible condyle if its trapped back, it's like a bandaid option almost (although yes it helps clear the throat as above). So its good to hear you talk about Expansion of the mandible also contributing to clearing the throat structures also. So with MSE and a lateral mandibular expansion technique like MSDO/DAME, always thought you'd have to expand the maxilla first before expanding the mandible, just in case there are issues expanding the maxilla, you wouldn't want to expand the mandible then go to expand the maxilla and not be able to. But now after watching this video and realising what you said about the Coronoid process issue with expanding the maxilla only, I'm realising you would need to start the maxilla expansion first, get it split and be confident that you know it can expand without issues, then start the mandible expansion not long after and expand them both at the same time. Then afterwards assess the mandible and see if, by how much it might need to come forward to increase room for tongue and muscles, and possibly look at IMDO/BSSO type of thing... I suspect that the mandibular condyle PLACEMENT issues (TMJ) will be resolved once the maxilla is sorted, meaning the conddyle will be sitting nicely. it might not look as good as someone wants, and they might want a longer mandible and look into BSSO/IMDO, but you should be healthy, which is more important. One more thing, I always hear practitioners and patients talking about the non-mechanilcal side of expansion, that is to say the CNS stuff that doesn't involve actual mechanical appliances and force, like the body's awareness of its movement patterns and structures (i'm not sure I'm explaining that right), but I always thought that it was waaayyyy more mechanical (logical) than everyone was saying, I think the more we learn and move forward the more we realise this (EG: mewing for adults requires force to make changes as we have stopped growing, for children not so much as they are still growing so the growth can be just guide in most cases/for normal cases, but simply guiding with adults wont make changes it will however prevent further regressions, but of course every case is different and I mean in general, "normal" people). Phew, sorry for the long comment!
@@ahmedajali it's a public hospital, the surgery was deducted by the national insurance. The doctor's name is Simion Bran. As far as i know they don't do it in the private clinic because it's rare, but they do the SARPE procedure at the clinic Broni Implant.
So basically it is possible to have the same maxillary width as our ancestors with DAME+MSE. Expand both jaws to 50mm like our ancestors had, then use a protraction face mask or something bone anchored to bring the jaws forward and then you will turn into a gigachad. If we could do this it would solve the whole problem of craniofacial dystrophy as Mike Mew calls it. You'll be the healthiest you've ever been. My only concern with DAME is cutting the nerve that goes across the mandible, do they cut through that nerve during that procedure? Good video Jaw hacks.
DAME + MSE def put a dent in the transverse direction. However, there remains a lot to be desired with regards to procedures that advance things forward.
the problem with this is the same as the problem in Mike Mews research. Just like we shit on dentists for only looking at teeth, Mew has sort of become the ''lower skull'' guy, he knows all about the maxilla and the jaws, but you can see people with properly grown lower faces with their forhead crushed against their eyes 1 or 2 cm further behind than it should be. I belive to reach true optimal craneofacial development we should also take care of the top half, otherwise alot of people are left with an asymetry there
Do you have any advice on finding the best bite position (the one i should keep at all times)? Idk is that a talked about topic Also what are the best surgeries for mid face forward growth, that would make cheekbones better?
Generally, the only bite you will be able to habituate is the one dictated by the present position of your teeth. A lot of people I chat with find that it is more comfortable to allow their lower jaw to cheat forward into a temporary underbite when resting. Obviously this isn't a long term solution and you would have to do orthodontics to permanently reposition your lower jaw slightly forward to decompress it.
Where do people go to get these types of surgeries/expanders. I’ve called orthodontist offices asking about expanders and they all say I’m too old. I have a narrow bottom and upper palate that I would like to correct, but I can’t find anyone that does these procedures.
Hi, so i'm a 20M and have moderate crowding (6mm), crossbite and some alignment issues. My wisdom teeth are erupting, and i've been told that I need 4 extrations of the premolars and braces, but i can keep the wisdoms as they'll have more space to erupt. The alternative is maxilla expansion for about 2 months. Should I try the expansion, even though they won't do anything for the mandible?
@@Will_4560 Definitely don't want to, but i'm worried that the wisdoms are going to become impacted. Which might lead to more than 4 extractions. So, maybe i should get the wisdoms out? I heard that doesn't have an affect on the palate/structure.
@@unitedfront1285 What I've heard is that if the wisdoms are impacted, they aren't providing support anyways and won't really change things too much if they're extracted. Hopefully you can keep all teeth though, but you should probably consult someone who works with orthotropics
I don't see why any particular dental movements should be precluded by DAME. However I'm not familiar with this particular technique of intruding molars to reduce gummy smile.
@@JawHacks Le Fort is a poor solution in my opinion. I'm already familiar with facemask itself but maybe there's something that can be done to increase its effectiveness, kind of like how the MSDO complements the MSE?
Some content on distraction osteogenesis to bring forward the premaxilla is sorely lacking (maybe because it would create a need for lateral expansion to match in many cases) it doesn't seem to be a common procedure but it seems so much less invasive than lefort.
I’m confused… if you expand upper arch with MSE does the bottom jaw automatically also expnd and grow forward? Or do you then have to expand the lower? Thank you 😊
Hey Ron, would getting a septoplasty interfere with getting MSE months later? I have a bit of a deviated septum but don’t know which to do primarily, thanks.
Yes definitely. I heard recently that there are some MSE providers who refuse to do MSE on patients who have had prior nasal surgeries. It can create complications. If you suspect you might do nasomaxillary expansion at some point, HOLD OFF ON NASAL SURGERY for now.
So what do you think....can you expand the maxilla at the same time as the mandible ? could it be done at the same time? Is there a suture that should be split like the mid-palatal suture? Have you been in contact with the gentleman on you tube channel....Grow your Face? You two could definitely help to grow each others' channels......and jaws (ha ha) Thankyou for covering all of this information. x
I would consider that part of the "airway benefit" but yeah you are correct. Dr. Yousefian said that his treatment protocol minimizes the need for bimax.
No, great question, still don't have an answer. I would say yes you could 6-12 months after having DAME done. At that point, the osteotomy would be totally healed and you could mess with the chin bone without issue. If not 12 months, maybe 18.
To be honest with you all that I care about is the Face outlines from the front or in other words square face just like Brad Pitt would this be a good solution that will widening my lower jaw to be more square ?
Tough question. The aesthetic pros/cons of transverse expanders like MSE/DAME are a little bit unclear right now. In another few years there may be more of a consensus.
you could definitely do MSE with a surgical assist like piezoelectric bone knife. but yes SARPE is very similar to MSE+DOME except that the SARPE is a toothborne expander rather than a TAD-assisted expander.
@@JawHacks oh that’s right, it is tooth borne expander huh. But is still creates new bone to form in the maxilla correct? So then the MSE with the surgical assist cut is more practical than SARPE you think? Since the surgical assist cut would eliminate any resistance in the expansion of the maxilla.
wisdom teeth coming in impacted into the bone, seems the only option is to remove. if expansion done young maybe I would have been able to keep my wisdom teeth?
the mandible is a single bone, not expandable due to anatomy. orthognathic treatment plans require upper and lower arches be coordinated pre-surgically with Orthodontics to acheive proper alignment post surgery. you speak as if you have an OMS qualifications? full disclosure is missing? you fail to mention the significance of Orthodontic alignment and dentoalveolar decompensation pre surgery to optimize the post-surgical outcome? if you are not an OMS you are not qualified to be posting "opinions" regarding any orthognathic procedures. from the comments i read you are creating unecessary confusion among potential patients that need professional help.
The symmetry in your face has greatly improved since 2020.....Thankyou for continuing your treatment and sharing with others.
Thanks for the kind words.
I have such a narrow jaw and severe sleep apnea for my age. If I ever did MSE I’d definitely want to pair it with MSDO, but everything is so expensive. Ron I need to schedule a chat with u I been pushing it off😭 your videos are packed with such great info. I wish there were more MSDO providers
Me too. Thanks for sharing. Talk soon.
Glad you’re back Ronny! Just in time. 👏🏽
Good to see you! Hope you are well.
Such a great channel for me to keep tabs on while I'm on my mewing and expansion journey. Much of the content I can't directly relate to, but it's still interesting to listen to as there's titbits I can learn from and appreciate. All in all your channel sort of keeps me company. Good man.
Glad to have you bro
At what point in the MSE process do you do the MSDO expansion? Great video btw Ron, glad you're investigating MSDO some more, I wonder why the big MSE doctors haven't done more in this regard.
I believe they are done simultaneously with Dr. Yousefian.
This is one of the very few times I wished I lived in the states. There are few providers in Canada and they are all less experienced compared to those in the states. I think no one does MSDO
Dr. Sylvain Chamberland
Lol….funny. Yeah, no one wants to live in the states anymore.
me over here getting mentally ready to go from Spain to a whole other continent to get this shit done
Hey Ronald I love the idea of Mse+ facemask and msdo I really do. Problem is that widening of the nose in my opinion its not ideal at all it can change you’re look so much that I find it not worth it. I have the money for this but that’s what holds me back. I’m thinking of doing bimax,then you might ask that will affect my nose as well. There are a few surgeons that cut a muscle to avoid any change of the nose during surgery, few doctors do this the doctor im referring is in Italy. I would do mse if only there was a doctor that understood the facial tissues and how to avoid to widen the nose. In theory there should be a way to cut the tissue during mse treatment, but no Doctor from what I have seen has done it on any patient. Really sucks many would say it’s not a big deal if the nose widens a little but I really care I love my nose now I don’t wanna risk it. At the moment I’m thinking bimax in Italy. Would really love to here your thoughts on the nose widening affect on aesthetics. Love all you’re content ❤
Thanks mr pioneer
My main man.
Hello , if you are an Indian and know about these procedures then please can you tell me that where should I get these procedures done?
@@prathamchopra560 give me your insta id or contact no. I have full list about all these airway centered and hollistic, neuromuscular dentist and even the best of them
@@prathamchopra560Yes I need this too.
Your channel is amazing and love your style. Another advantage was some anterior movement he manages to achieve
I always thought the only real solid option was something like MSDO and MSE, and a face mask. But I initially also flirted with the idea of something like a BSSO or IMDO as well to complete the whole "thing" (lateral expansion of the maxilla and mandible and also forward/saggital expansion of the mandible and maxilla) The BSSO/IMDO was to get some more forward movement of the chin and more room for the tongue and other structures out of the throat (I didn;t like how MSDO cuts in between the teeth, preferred the BSSO option of cutting behind the teeth)... but let then I realised, through chatting to dentists who practice expansion, that the mandible is generally trapped back by the maxiilla, and the mandible will follow the maxilla, so if the maxilla is expanded latterally it will "free" the mandible to come to wear it needs to be etc (I'm sure you've heard many people saying this) I quickly realised that BSSO/IMDO probably wasn't as important generally as a lateral expansion technique, which is good because those BSDO/IMDO type procedures never sat well for me as they don't do much to the mandible condyle if its trapped back, it's like a bandaid option almost (although yes it helps clear the throat as above). So its good to hear you talk about Expansion of the mandible also contributing to clearing the throat structures also. So with MSE and a lateral mandibular expansion technique like MSDO/DAME, always thought you'd have to expand the maxilla first before expanding the mandible, just in case there are issues expanding the maxilla, you wouldn't want to expand the mandible then go to expand the maxilla and not be able to. But now after watching this video and realising what you said about the Coronoid process issue with expanding the maxilla only, I'm realising you would need to start the maxilla expansion first, get it split and be confident that you know it can expand without issues, then start the mandible expansion not long after and expand them both at the same time. Then afterwards assess the mandible and see if, by how much it might need to come forward to increase room for tongue and muscles, and possibly look at IMDO/BSSO type of thing... I suspect that the mandibular condyle PLACEMENT issues (TMJ) will be resolved once the maxilla is sorted, meaning the conddyle will be sitting nicely. it might not look as good as someone wants, and they might want a longer mandible and look into BSSO/IMDO, but you should be healthy, which is more important. One more thing, I always hear practitioners and patients talking about the non-mechanilcal side of expansion, that is to say the CNS stuff that doesn't involve actual mechanical appliances and force, like the body's awareness of its movement patterns and structures (i'm not sure I'm explaining that right), but I always thought that it was waaayyyy more mechanical (logical) than everyone was saying, I think the more we learn and move forward the more we realise this (EG: mewing for adults requires force to make changes as we have stopped growing, for children not so much as they are still growing so the growth can be just guide in most cases/for normal cases, but simply guiding with adults wont make changes it will however prevent further regressions, but of course every case is different and I mean in general, "normal" people). Phew, sorry for the long comment!
Good write up thanks for sharing bro.
How is MSDO with facemask viable? Wouldnt the facemask irritate or even cause a great deal of pain and damage for the cut in the symphysial line?
Do you know a doctor from Europe for mandible expansion?
So how do you expand the Mandible? What device is used? Who have you been working with?
Can we make video together, Ron about vitamins and how they can affect your quality of life.
Is there anyone that does lower jaw expansion alongside the MSE apart from Dr Yousefian?
I would do this but my budget barely allows for MSE as it is.
I feel you bro. Mouths can be money pits.
Hey Ron, can you do msdo(Dame) anywhere in Europe? Also, what would you suggest to someone who is doing MSE in preparation for double jaw surgery?
i don't know anyone beyond North America unfortunately. it's a very rare procedure, especially when used in combo with MSE.
Yes they do it in Romania (Cluj). I had it done last week + SARPE.
@@ahmedajali it's a public hospital, the surgery was deducted by the national insurance. The doctor's name is Simion Bran. As far as i know they don't do it in the private clinic because it's rare, but they do the SARPE procedure at the clinic Broni Implant.
So basically it is possible to have the same maxillary width as our ancestors with DAME+MSE. Expand both jaws to 50mm like our ancestors had, then use a protraction face mask or something bone anchored to bring the jaws forward and then you will turn into a gigachad. If we could do this it would solve the whole problem of craniofacial dystrophy as Mike Mew calls it. You'll be the healthiest you've ever been. My only concern with DAME is cutting the nerve that goes across the mandible, do they cut through that nerve during that procedure? Good video Jaw hacks.
DAME + MSE def put a dent in the transverse direction. However, there remains a lot to be desired with regards to procedures that advance things forward.
the problem with this is the same as the problem in Mike Mews research. Just like we shit on dentists for only looking at teeth, Mew has sort of become the ''lower skull'' guy, he knows all about the maxilla and the jaws, but you can see people with properly grown lower faces with their forhead crushed against their eyes 1 or 2 cm further behind than it should be. I belive to reach true optimal craneofacial development we should also take care of the top half, otherwise alot of people are left with an asymetry there
Do you have any advice on finding the best bite position (the one i should keep at all times)? Idk is that a talked about topic
Also what are the best surgeries for mid face forward growth, that would make cheekbones better?
Generally, the only bite you will be able to habituate is the one dictated by the present position of your teeth. A lot of people I chat with find that it is more comfortable to allow their lower jaw to cheat forward into a temporary underbite when resting.
Obviously this isn't a long term solution and you would have to do orthodontics to permanently reposition your lower jaw slightly forward to decompress it.
@@JawHacks is it considered an underbite even if my lower teeth are still behind upper teeth?
@@vdj18.64 that's called overbite
Where do people go to get these types of surgeries/expanders. I’ve called orthodontist offices asking about expanders and they all say I’m too old. I have a narrow bottom and upper palate that I would like to correct, but I can’t find anyone that does these procedures.
Hey Ron, whats going on? I haven't seen your videos in a while and now I'm seeing an underbite on you. How did this occur?
Hi, so i'm a 20M and have moderate crowding (6mm), crossbite and some alignment issues. My wisdom teeth are erupting, and i've been told that I need 4 extrations of the premolars and braces, but i can keep the wisdoms as they'll have more space to erupt. The alternative is maxilla expansion for about 2 months. Should I try the expansion, even though they won't do anything for the mandible?
I'm not educated enough to know tell you what the best path is, but oh god whatever you do, don't have your premolars extracted
@@Will_4560 Definitely don't want to, but i'm worried that the wisdoms are going to become impacted. Which might lead to more than 4 extractions. So, maybe i should get the wisdoms out? I heard that doesn't have an affect on the palate/structure.
@@unitedfront1285 What I've heard is that if the wisdoms are impacted, they aren't providing support anyways and won't really change things too much if they're extracted. Hopefully you can keep all teeth though, but you should probably consult someone who works with orthotropics
In forgot what the procedure is called but it’s where they pull the wisdom out and use that space so that you don’t have to remove your premolars
소구치는 물론 사랑니도 절대 뽑지 마세요. 당신은 평생 후회하게 될것이다
Ron can u also use tads to intrude the molars and reduce gummy smile while u are in the MSDO treatment
I don't see why any particular dental movements should be precluded by DAME. However I'm not familiar with this particular technique of intruding molars to reduce gummy smile.
Pls where I can get this procedure!
You said Dr.Yousefian is the only doctor that combines msdo with mse though?
I know of one other doctor in Canada who also does it.
@@JawHackshi ron! Can you please provide the name and location?
My head looks like a balloon without having any expansion (ha ha)
Rockin it!...whats your name?
Has Dr Newaz commented on Dr Yousefian's work? I'd be interested in seeing what he thinks.
Hoping to have Dr. Newaz on soon.
@@JawHacks we should get Montrose on as well, could do a deeper evaluation of mg asymmetry
Does anybody expand the mandible in Australia?
Can you do some content focusing on protraction of the maxilla?
kind of a brutal subject with no good answers. have you seen some of my videos about facemask? or are you thinking lefort jaw surgeries?
@@JawHacks Le Fort is a poor solution in my opinion. I'm already familiar with facemask itself but maybe there's something that can be done to increase its effectiveness, kind of like how the MSDO complements the MSE?
Some content on distraction osteogenesis to bring forward the premaxilla is sorely lacking (maybe because it would create a need for lateral expansion to match in many cases) it doesn't seem to be a common procedure but it seems so much less invasive than lefort.
I’m confused… if you expand upper arch with MSE does the bottom jaw automatically also expnd and grow forward? Or do you then have to expand the lower? Thank you 😊
Watch the Dr yousefian interview - the latter
Mandibular expansion can give you TMJ
Hey Ron, would getting a septoplasty interfere with getting MSE months later? I have a bit of a deviated septum but don’t know which to do primarily, thanks.
Yes definitely. I heard recently that there are some MSE providers who refuse to do MSE on patients who have had prior nasal surgeries. It can create complications. If you suspect you might do nasomaxillary expansion at some point, HOLD OFF ON NASAL SURGERY for now.
@@JawHacks ah I see, will definitely hold off on that then, thanks mate! Plan on doing an interview with you soon man!!!
@@JawHacks Does that include a cosmetic rhinoplasty?
So what do you think....can you expand the maxilla at the same time as the mandible ? could it be done at the same time? Is there a suture that should be split like the mid-palatal suture? Have you been in contact with the gentleman on you tube channel....Grow your Face? You two could definitely help to grow each others' channels......and jaws (ha ha)
Thankyou for covering all of this information. x
Yes it's definitely possible, check out my interview with Dr. Yousefian. That's his signature treatment protocol.
I need to talk to you how i doing this?
Is another advantage that it may eliminate the need for MMA surgery?
I would consider that part of the "airway benefit" but yeah you are correct. Dr. Yousefian said that his treatment protocol minimizes the need for bimax.
Ron, did you find out if you can do a genioplasty after MSDO/DAME?
No, great question, still don't have an answer. I would say yes you could 6-12 months after having DAME done. At that point, the osteotomy would be totally healed and you could mess with the chin bone without issue. If not 12 months, maybe 18.
@@JawHacks Cheers bud. Do you plan on getting any jaw surgeons on the channel? It would be good to hear their perspective on things
@@joedimaggio3146i have same problem ,is there no surgery to fix both simultaneously
New Studio?
Rented co-working space. But i'm the only one who's ever there so no prob filming
To be honest with you all that I care about is the Face outlines from the front or in other words square face just like Brad Pitt
would this be a good solution that will widening my lower jaw to be more square
?
Tough question. The aesthetic pros/cons of transverse expanders like MSE/DAME are a little bit unclear right now. In another few years there may be more of a consensus.
Masseters run up and down, buccinators are transverse, great video otherwise💪- dental student colleague
Appreciate that bro!
what is the advantage of dame or mse as opposed to just doing mma with ccw rotation ?
transverse expansion of both jaws plus the nasal cavity.
Do you think IMDO can be complementary to MSE
@Jamie I think there’s one in Spain called AVR maxilofacial
are there any providers of IMDO in England?
Not that I know of, but that doesn't mean "no."
So SARPE would be a consideration with mandible expansion as well correct? I think I’m too old for MSE (25Male)
you could definitely do MSE with a surgical assist like piezoelectric bone knife. but yes SARPE is very similar to MSE+DOME except that the SARPE is a toothborne expander rather than a TAD-assisted expander.
@@JawHacks oh that’s right, it is tooth borne expander huh. But is still creates new bone to form in the maxilla correct?
So then the MSE with the surgical assist cut is more practical than SARPE you think? Since the surgical assist cut would eliminate any resistance in the expansion of the maxilla.
wisdom teeth coming in impacted into the bone, seems the only option is to remove. if expansion done young maybe I would have been able to keep my wisdom teeth?
Probably. Maybe you can keep them now if you hella expand with MSE / DAME
the mandible is a single bone, not expandable due to anatomy. orthognathic treatment plans require upper and lower arches be coordinated pre-surgically with Orthodontics to acheive proper alignment post surgery. you speak as if you have an OMS qualifications? full disclosure is missing?
you fail to mention the significance of Orthodontic alignment and dentoalveolar decompensation pre surgery to optimize the post-surgical outcome?
if you are not an OMS you are not qualified to be posting "opinions" regarding any orthognathic procedures.
from the comments i read you are creating unecessary confusion among potential patients that need professional help.
I have bimaxillary protrution
So planing to doextraction of 4 tooth and braces
Is that good
Or doing expansion is an option?
29 years old
Sorry...i got it
fucking genius.
takes one to know one. honestly though, i'm nothing.