I'm having to film back in the Tiny Room against green-screen again, as lockdown means the Centre for Computing History is closed! Hopefully they'll be open again soon, although that depends on a very different kind of progress...
My favorite thing about the video! Though it's not exactly difficult, just needs a little prep (rehearsal + timer + note down milestones, or even better, code up a simple scrolling teleprompter with time display). Intro and outro clips also afford some padding for wiggle room.
I once wrote a small program for a department in my company and they didn't think it was good enough. I added a small progress bar to the front that literally just incremented a counter at even intervals and they went nuts for how robust I had made it and loved it. It was a 3 second loop that flashed a modal with the word "loading..." and a progress bar that did nothing but count to 100 by 1 and it changed the perception of the complexity. I eventually took that out, citing a performance improvement.
Perhaps not in your particular case but as someone who used to do a lot of programming for fun many moons ago, one word sums it up, 'feedback'. You'll know what I loathe if you are familiar with large commercial crap like SAP and anything designed around it for end user experiences which in my experience has little to none, or wildly unexpected or might as well be invisible user feedback. If you display something for more than a few seconds and it isn't immediately obvious what you should be doing, you failed with your GUI (assuming you have one of course). A lot of stuff has moved away from desktop software where I work and moved towards web front ends, oh god how terribly slow, fails a lot, has little to no feedback, half the time you only know something has worked or is working purely because you have sat through nothing happening so many times and confirmed the data via another method that wastes even more time..... and i'm ranting hahahaha!
@@MowLawner It's called providing a good user experience. If you make the user wait with no indication of what's/if any is happening, they will hate it.
The store where I used to work would reboot the self service computer after every customer so it could restore the default state of the machine. The software it had to launch after the reboot used to be stupidly slow to load some process that takes the progress bar between 3% and 78% (like 5-10 minutes, or at least it felt like it when there was a line to use it) and then only a few seconds to complete, until we upgraded the computer to a faster processor and SSD, and then the progress bar would just already be at 78% by the time you could see one.
I'm sorry to inform you that sometimes the progress bars are explicitly coded to keep moving continuously at least a bit even when no job was completed since the "last big jump" of the progress bar. The "big jumps" are often when something has actually completed.
It's the same law that dictates that if you're waiting for a parcel it will come at the latest they say - Unless you nip out, then when you come back they've just been... 👍🤣
Standard windows xp behaviour use to be sometimes: set the progress bar to 90%, then begin what you have to do, upon finishing set it to 100%. now with windows 10 we have those dots that fly in, do a slow circle and fly out again, over and over again.
I once heard a web designer talk about how sometimes a progress bar isn't even truly a progress bar, it's just a code or gif image set to raise up to around 90-99%, swap to a different bit of code or image and display that until it's just about finished, and then swap to a third bit of code or image that displays 100% (this is most common on websites or video game loading screens but I'm sure some program installers do this too). The real trick to it is like Tom said, making it a little janky so it _seems_ like a real progress bar.
I remember in my younger years when reinstalling Windows Me on a borked computer. And we'd put a piece of tape on the screen to mark the progress bar position, to see if it was really moving.
If good old internet explorer taught me something, it is that progress bar is also capable to go to 100% and then return back to 99% and stay there for like 5 hours.
My absolute favorite thing is when loading time estimates spit out stuff like "infinite" or "96 years." I don't see it happen as often anymore (and it's also unhelpful) but it's hilarious.
I remember raising off a defect for a system I was testing where adding a discount of 50% to a service which cost £24 would instead increase its price to £48. In the next release adding a discount of 50% to the service which cost £24 decreased its price to -£26. Wrong in a different way.
@@quixomega You are not a programming manager, then. At least I hope not. Sometimes problems in complex codebases are incredibly confusing so you try a hail mary in an attempt to fix it and it works. In an ideal world you can spend forever debugging and figuring out what caused an issue. In the real world, you have deadlines to deal with and something needs to work ASAP. It doesn't matter how.
Personally my favourite kind of progress bar is when there's two progress bars: the top one showing the progress of the overall process, and the bottom showing the progress of each individual task. That lets you actually see why some bits take longer, and in my opinion gives you a better approximation of the time left.
@@derdarkl2890 As opposed to things like Limewire (remember Limewire?), whose loading screen had "steps" like "Scouring New York City for limes..." Which maybe the developers knew what it was actually doing at that point for debugging, but it means nothing to anyone else.
My old internet setup was extremely prone to dropping connections temporarily, and it was really funny watching "time remaining" estimates steadily climb by several days of time before suddenly jolting back to a few minutes
So one day I was using my dell Inspiron 15 3000to download a steam game called world of tonks, it went like this from one hour to hour five hours three days 365+ more than a year. (It took a day and a half to install)
One time not very long ago I was updating a steam game, the estimating time remaining started at 5 minutes and steadily increased until it said "more than one year", before going back to 20 minutes
Sheldon: More wrong? Wrong is an absolute state and not subject to gradation. Stuart: Of course it is. It is a little wrong to say a tomato is a vegetable, it is very wrong to say it is a suspension bridge.
"It'll still probably be wrong, but it'll be differently wrong..." - this sounds like almost every single update to every piece of software that ever existed.
Windows 10's updates take "meh, good enough" a little too casually though. It can sit on 21% for three-quarters of an hour then jump to 81% for 15 minutes more and then 98% and done in a few seconds. I suspect they decided to only update the progress bar after completion of (e.g.) each file installed, and that in the above scenario there are some really huge files that are complex to install and a few smaller / simpler files after that.
@@OLBastholm - Did you want it? Did it take up pointless hard drive space..?? And no - it was Windows 10 although Aople is just as unethical... 🤣 That's why I use Android... 😝
@@BassandoForte pointless? updates are there to keep your devices up to date with anti viruses, security and patches, i don't understand why people have a problem with Windows updates, it barely takes any time for me
@@electron8262 you put a timer behind the camera and when you reach the point you just glance at it and say the time it displays. Cool trick nonetheless.
@@1xeshm Still had to know how long the whole video will be though, a timer behind the camera can't tell you what the time will be in the future for an unknown video length. Combination of editing start and finish to make sure it fits and rehearsals are the only ways I can think of to do that live
As someone that has actually coded a very basic progress bar before, yes. It's near impossible to make it smooth, and yes, my answer was exactly the same. It shows that it's making progress and not frozen, and that's all that really matters. I have a new respect for progress bars after trying to make one actually function, and I had tutorials to figure out how to do it.
I mean... How effective is it at showing that there is in fact progress going on when it sits unchanging at 25% for two minutes before racing all the way from there to 68% in less than two seconds.
I had a fleeting impression that it was increasing along the video and got paranoid observing if there was some sort of magical trickery going on...but, no...just a normal title
I remember from some games, that they would have an installer that had: a blue progress bar with a percentage. And on the left side of the screen would be three additional bars for showing you what each step of the installation was doing. So a bar for disk usage, etc. That was far more informational then just one bar with or without an ETA displayed. (Windows 95/98 era).
@@nedmurry A point for epic games. They just gotta compress their files like steam does because i dont want to download 30 fricking gigabytes just to make games if i fan just downloaded 3gb instead from Unity
While it's not quite similar, Minecraft's Forge Mod Loader also tells you what it's doing; specifically, it has multiple progress bars, in increasing levels of detail, each with a step count. One for the main 7 or so steps of loading, then one for what it's doing within that step (i.e. loading a specific mod), then a third for what it's doing within that (i.e. loading individual textures).
The worst kind of progress bars are the ones that roll in a circle infinitely and it doesn't really mean anything. Sometimes the installation process freezes forever but the animation is still going.
I believe the term for that is "Spinner". Ideally they should be used for tasks that only take a few seconds, because displaying a whole progress bar for something so short wouldn't be worth it.
@@hoodiesticks Actually, the point of them is to indicate a task that will take an indefinite amount of time, e.g. when you're downloading a file that you don't know the total size of.
Sometimes I'd rather have something be differently wrong. Usually it means I did something to change the outcome and that potentially leads towards success.
Checkout lines at the supermarket ARE the real life progress bars. You think that they're only a couple of shoppers ahead of you remaining but then one of them spends eons on counting their coupons and/or "remembering" to get one more thing and disappearing into the aisles!
Exactly - and wondering whether to switch to a different checkout is like deciding whether to cancel the download and try again from a different server
@21st Century Socialist Cannot happen here, because every scanned item needs to go into the weighing area before it lets you scan the next. But I agree, I take longer at the self-checkout than a trained cashier would take to mark my items. So the waiting time becomes an important factor when choosing between the two options.
My favorite progress bars also have the optional "Details" feed that prints what's been happening. Seeing a lot of text print really quickly gives a satisfying indicator that "things are happening!"
@@doomse150 Depends - but just 1-2 lines per Second will have no noticeable impact unless you are really really bad at your job (or a web"developer").
I found this very interesting. My job is a performance test analyst, and we often find that performance issues in software is not the software itself, but the users perceptions of it. Have a user wait for something to happen with nothing going on, instant 'its running slow' report. Add a spinner, progress bar, literally any user cue that something is still happening and they'll be more tolerant. The software could actually be slower because it has to deal with updating the screen as well as the job it's trying to do, but users will be happy about it.
@@julius855 Oh, I get this all the time as well. My theory is that they keep calculating the "rolling average" even when the download is idle due to some external factor (i.e. the disk is busy so Steam can't write files to it), but they still proceed to throw those zeros into the calculation and you get "more than one year left".
I like it when they include something like a "3/16 modules loaded" or scroll names of current operations in plain text ( more common on linux machines) its a much more tactile sense that the machine is continuing to work, and seems a little more reassuring.
I've seen a post about someone complaining that "Their apps (or website, I forgot) tooks forever to load" and the company decided to do nothing except adding words like "Processing File (abc)..." and "Rendering assets (123)..." under the bar. The same customer said that the loading screen are now faster than before HAHAHA.
@@Hxrb One of the beauties of UX. Just add in something to look at and the program appears to be more responsive. It even works for people who knows how that trick.
I don't know how many people will fully appreciate the fact that you knew in this long take exactly how long the video was going to be and mention exactly where in the video you are to the second. But with having a video editing background myself, oh boy, did I appreciate that! Well done! I loved it.
I was friends with a computer genius as a kid, and his parents always had the cutting edge tech to play around with. One thing I remember him saying is "When I grow up and program games, I'm going to make a load bar that runs smoothly." That was his one mission in life, haha.
The progressbar type I hate is the quick or smooth type, but just takes forever to confirm the last % because it skipped all of the other 99 bc of the smoothness
Honestly: I find it much more important that software tells me _what_ it is doing. I like to see which files it is currently copying, or what step of the process it is currently on. I think that might be the one thing that infuriates me about apple machines the most: The almost complete lack of feedback.
To be fair, the more time, and processing power, that is put into feedback, and making sure the progress bar is accurate, the slower the actual task goes. Most progress bars are very simple because that is easy and doesnt slow anything down, although the processing power wouldnt matter for most things.
@@AgentxRyan not progress bar-related, but your comment reminds me of installing an old game on a modern computer and the install program telling me the computer might not be able to run the game because it required 32 MB of RAM and I had only 4 GB.
It was done by 1) a good estimation of the script length with a few practice runs. 2) Leaving one cut at the intro to slide the body of the video up or down the timeline to have his callout match the timecode.
how you managed to time this single uncut monologue and casually describe the exact length of the video is a subtle nod to the pre production behind these videos. Great job as always Tom and team!
It took me three days to download all the updates for Gran Turismo 6 on PS3 - with a freakin' 300 Mbit/s connection. I was using the disc copy, I might add. Why? Because someone at Sony decided that the best way to deliver updates on that system was by having each individual update install separately. This is a minor annoyance with a game that has received its normal three to five patches over its lifespan, but with GT6, this meant installing 22 patches, one after the other, each of them at least hundreds of megabytes large on a system with a hard drive that would have been slow in 2006 and a processor that is fine in a supercomputer, but utterly incapable of quickly decompressing large amounts of data. And the system inevitably failed at installing some of these patches, even crashed during one over night download session, because it's from 2006 and Sony's engineers were taking crazy pills at the time, so I had to delete everything and restart again twice. Those three days were the successful installation run and don't include previous failed ones. Naturally, Sony's servers were also slow as hell, for some reason, which didn't make it any faster. Let's just say the PS3 is the last Sony console I've ever bought. The game's great though and it was totally worth the effort, but holy hell, what a nightmare.
When my torrent downloads shows _"63 years remaining"_ I'm like "great, I'll leave it downloading and come back when I'm 84." Ten minutes later: _" seeding"_
@@laurinneff4304 I always increase my seed ratio like 10-100x higher than my default limit when that happens, hoping to offset the ppl that just leech, and maybe ultimately bringing the speed a bit higher for later ppl
@@SomeBlokeWhoTravelsALot the easy part is editing the outro’s length to make the video 5:10. As for saying 1:24 at 1:24, a timer seems like a valid explanation to me. And then slightly adjust when the video starts so it lines up almost perfectly. Though I might be missing something, I’m not too sure what’s strange about that?
Yes. I'm a programmer, and I take a "janky" progressbar that I can feel/see is directly tied into the operation before some "fancy" artificial smoothness where I have no way to judge whether it's not just an animation completely unrelated to what's happening (or even to the fact whether something is happening or not).
I think progress bars only make sense with a single characteristic of a task. Download progress bars are actually really good. They tell you progress, rate and estimated time remaining. Combining multiple characteristics together is lazy and misleading. However its a disease with computing that the user shall have no idea what the blackbox is doing. Really a computer could be providing much more meaningful statuses on its tasks. But it'd require a lot more than a progress bar.
@@ammyvl1 well let's say youre in a hurry and need to leave your wifi, the progression can help you decide whether to wait for awhile or stop the process and do it again later
In our stuff we tend to make a "wizard" style progress bar, something you'd see, say, in winxp installation, where it would give you a checkmark list of things to do and progress for the current thing it's doing
I'm sure we've all done this, placed our mouse cursor right at the current position of a progress bar, so we can see if it's actually moving when we check on it again after some arbitrary amount of time.
I have made a game out of keeping my cursor _just_ out of reach of the bar, and keeping it as close as can be without touching it. The suspense of 'will I have to move my cursor some second in the next hour?' really helps time pass.
All you really need to do to do that is to have [current time] in the script and then have a timer next to it showing exactly how long has passed. Just read the time there when you get there.
I have 2 degrees in computer science and have been programming for nearly a decade and they’re still just mysterious boxes to me. If anything it’s all the more magical
@@rlamacraft whoever came up with the basics of how software and hardware is integrated to make a computer is the real genius here. I mean in terms of software or program actually changing how electrons are rerouted in the processor using nothing but electric potentials applied at different places- all working non-mechanically. That's the one thing that I still don't understand and I am a developer too.
Who's every been in a supermarket queue, things are moving along smoothly, then the person in front of you needs a price check, an item replaced or has some payment issue. All of a sudden, your progress bar is stuffed!
"The most important job is just to reassure the user that yes, things are happening; progress is being made..." Shout out to Web pages which put a "spinner" gif directly in their HTML, so it always appears; even if the JS that fetches the content is broken/missing.
@@dasten123 if you disable JS you can access nearly all of the paywalled news or magazine article websites. The paywall never loads but the article does
I think some progress bars are liars, like the ones with backwards-flowing animations that give the illusion of forward progress, or the ones that creep forward ever so slightly as if a page is still loading, even though the internet connection has clearly dropped. Grr/sigh.
Progress bars are NOT the problem. It is **dumb programmers** who can't calculate how long something will take because no one cares about performance anymore. _Just throw more hardware at the problem!_ /s
The purpose of progress bars is to make the waiting time easier for you. They're not lying if they're advancing without making "progress", because the time left to wait is decreasing. Just my 2¢
how about when it rounds up to "100%" despite not being done? No, 100% means done, not nearly done. I think rounding up is okay except it should cap at at 99% and only go to 100% as part of a finishing transition (if you want to waste the user's time with one).
@@crashdemons Yup, that's a perfect example of lazy programming! Rounding down to the nearest integer or (round down to 2 decimal places) would be clearer.
My favorite vague "progress bar" is probably tied between windows 95 copy dialog where pages move from one folder to another, and the cable box reboot saying "setting up".... "Getting close"..... "Almost there". Jk those are the worst. The best are when they say in a game for example, "lighting torches, sharpening swords, assembling the king's men etc."
Don't quote me on this, but I think that behaviour comes from the way caching is handled. Essentially, most OSs will take some RAM that's unused at the moment and use it to cache disk writes to make them faster or even save some write operations if the same thing is modified multiple times. The Windows Explorer doesn't know about that and just hears from the OS that files are being written, but not whether they are written to RAM or the actual disk. But the developers of Explorer probably thought of that, so to be sure the Explorer will tell the OS to flush the cache, (i.e. tell it to write all cached from RAM to the disk) before closing the copy dialog. They just didn't think to make a progress bar for that or adjust the existing one.
That's why redundant firmware loaders were implemented as soon as flash memory became cheap enough to do so. The machine can checksum the primary firmware and, if it falls, load the secondary as a backup.
I mean it has happened a few times with me, right here on youtube while watching a premiere/live stream (on landscape). The bar would go beyond, touching the edge of the screen
I’ve been a software developer for decades and I still find myself trying to explain to people that the progress bar shows how much of all the tasks the program needs to perform have been done, not how much time it’s going to take to do those tasks Since things have gone largely internet based (which can be a total crapshoot), progress bars have largely been replaced with spinning loading things because we developers have essentially given up on trying to give any predictions and just want to let the user know “we’re still doing something, please continue wait”
He's got a few variables to play with - the length of his intro is the main one. Also any pause in him speaking when he's not on screen. If you have an estimate of how fast you speak (most experienced speakers do) then it's not too hard.
When I see a loading bar that's perfectly smooth I know it's just for display and doesn't represent actual activity. Either on scam websites, some games, or other places.
some games will use a high estimate for the loading time and just use that every time, and make you wait a little longer every time even if it loads faster, and just sorta bug out if loading takes longer. Elite Dangerous, for instance, when you jump between systems there is an animation that plays which is actually hiding the loading, and if it takes too long its called "tunneling". Other games might implement elevators, decontamination chambers, all sorts of stuff.
Breath of the Wild takes an interesting approach: They know the average time it takes to load and programmed the progress bar to be as fast as this average loading time. If loading takes longer than expected, the progress par stops at 95% filled. If loading is already completed, they fastly fill the progress bar and continue.
ikr Like for example, Background Intelligent Transfer Service is neither "background" nor "intelligent." I'm actively using my PC, watching streaming video or whatever, then BITS kicks on and suddenly my ability to do anything on the internet dissipates. It literally uses all of my bandwidth and the only solution is to stop the service.
@@JohnDCrafton if it helps, BITS is the downloading part of Windows Update, so I wouldn't leave it disabled! Check updates in settings next time to see if it's an update you can pause instead maybe, and if there's any options in update scheduling that seem wrong? Keep in mind it doesn't have much of an option if you're literally turning your PC on, watching a video then turning it off, for example, but even then the impact shouldn't be that big.
@@SimonBuchanNz It doesn't help that I only have 1.5 Mbps download. My ISP sucks. But it's not my ISP's fault that Windows believes it needs all of my 1.5 Mbps to download updates "in the background".
tom: "LIke scammy websites that make you artificially wait ten seconds for something to load so they can show you an advert in the meantime" youtube: *sweating profusely
"The most important job is to reassure that yes, things are happening, progress it being made" That moment when the progress bar is stuck at 99% for about 28 minutes...
I have this experience 99% of the time when copying large files over the network and USB cables. It seems to display "data read and sent", but the receiving computer still needs to "shelf it" to the external.
Like an asymptotic function - you get ever so near, but never reach it. Progress bars should grow decimal places after 99%: 99% -> 99.x% -> 99.9x% -> 99.9999999x% etc.
Guessing current time: Multiple practice takes to keep flow, combined with a clock of some kind that Tom can see. Guessing video length: Full script rehearsals to gauge rough length of the video before recording, plus tweaking the credits at the end to make sure it's accurate.
EDITING It was probably originally (when written) "There's [length] of video, and we've got through [length]" and once the pacing had been worked out you just put the real values in. Any slight variations can be fixed with video editing (you'd be surprised how little you notice a
It's true, a smooth progress bar actually makes it seem less reliable, it needs to be a little janky. And admit it, we've all felt that little rush of joy when a slow bar suddenly jumps ahead by a lot!
I'm having to film back in the Tiny Room against green-screen again, as lockdown means the Centre for Computing History is closed! Hopefully they'll be open again soon, although that depends on a very different kind of progress...
1 week ago?
Ohh HeLLo ThErE
hi
oh
Thank you for the video!
everybody gangsta till tom scott tells the exact length of the video in advance
Here the video has a delay of approximately 0.5 seconds of the real value.
nah, much better is saying nothing to user, freezing and eventually dropping BSOD
I KNOWW
😂😂😂 so true
@@brunnomenxa Maybe the computer calculated it wrong, cant trust those
Knowing the exact video length a minute into a five minute one-take video is a solid flex 💪
Honest
And also just casually mentioning the exact time you have currently spoken at the right time. Takes no effort at all, slap it in there!
Well it didn't really matter on the take. Man's gotta adjust that in the outro though
Probably just the camera screen flipped towards the front.
My favorite thing about the video! Though it's not exactly difficult, just needs a little prep (rehearsal + timer + note down milestones, or even better, code up a simple scrolling teleprompter with time display). Intro and outro clips also afford some padding for wiggle room.
"There's 5 minutes and 10 seconds of video, and we've got through 1 minute and 24 seconds."
- *checks*
Holy frick.
Wait What? How the Frick?
HOW
Sup Phoenix
Bruh
I keep seeing my subscriptions everywhere
I once wrote a small program for a department in my company and they didn't think it was good enough. I added a small progress bar to the front that literally just incremented a counter at even intervals and they went nuts for how robust I had made it and loved it. It was a 3 second loop that flashed a modal with the word "loading..." and a progress bar that did nothing but count to 100 by 1 and it changed the perception of the complexity. I eventually took that out, citing a performance improvement.
Big brain
Really goes to show how little the non-techies know about tech
Anything animated is great🤣🤣
Perhaps not in your particular case but as someone who used to do a lot of programming for fun many moons ago, one word sums it up, 'feedback'. You'll know what I loathe if you are familiar with large commercial crap like SAP and anything designed around it for end user experiences which in my experience has little to none, or wildly unexpected or might as well be invisible user feedback.
If you display something for more than a few seconds and it isn't immediately obvious what you should be doing, you failed with your GUI (assuming you have one of course).
A lot of stuff has moved away from desktop software where I work and moved towards web front ends, oh god how terribly slow, fails a lot, has little to no feedback, half the time you only know something has worked or is working purely because you have sat through nothing happening so many times and confirmed the data via another method that wastes even more time..... and i'm ranting hahahaha!
@@MowLawner It's called providing a good user experience. If you make the user wait with no indication of what's/if any is happening, they will hate it.
Good ol' floppy drives "3%.... 4%.... 98% DONE"
hello verified person
Hey, its my favourite 40k youtuber. Neat.
You skipped the 2% after 98% but before done
Or netflix
The store where I used to work would reboot the self service computer after every customer so it could restore the default state of the machine. The software it had to launch after the reboot used to be stupidly slow to load some process that takes the progress bar between 3% and 78% (like 5-10 minutes, or at least it felt like it when there was a line to use it) and then only a few seconds to complete, until we upgraded the computer to a faster processor and SSD, and then the progress bar would just already be at 78% by the time you could see one.
Even 0.1% movement of progress bar is a huge relief than it getting stuck for long...
So true
Am I the only person who places the corner of the mouse pointer on the progress bar when this happens? So I know if there has been any movement
@@benrgroganAll the time
@@soupkitchen467 you have to leave a space
I'm sorry to inform you that sometimes the progress bars are explicitly coded to keep moving continuously at least a bit even when no job was completed since the "last big jump" of the progress bar. The "big jumps" are often when something has actually completed.
Can't explain the fustration of things getting stuck at 99%
Then be prepared for the frustration of it being stuck at 100% and nothing happening
Then be prepared for the stuck of it being at frustration 100% and happening nothing
@@mixxed_nuts Or 101%. Always know you're in for good times when you see that :-/..
@@altrag i hate when my game loads 101%
@@altrag oww that physically hurts to see
The last 1% always takes by far the longest.
And the risk of the whole thing crashing rises exponentially as well.
Love ur pfp axolotl my fav animal
No the 99 does 😂
It's called "the law of the sod"... 🤣
It's the same law that dictates that if you're waiting for a parcel it will come at the latest they say - Unless you nip out, then when you come back they've just been... 👍🤣
@@lethall6609 That's what he said. "the LAST 1%"
The most annoying thing is when it reaches 100% and then just sits there for another 3 days.
Or at 0% for 2 hours... Very cool windows update.
Standard windows xp behaviour use to be sometimes: set the progress bar to 90%, then begin what you have to do, upon finishing set it to 100%. now with windows 10 we have those dots that fly in, do a slow circle and fly out again, over and over again.
@@ChrisD__ This is scary true
I once heard a web designer talk about how sometimes a progress bar isn't even truly a progress bar, it's just a code or gif image set to raise up to around 90-99%, swap to a different bit of code or image and display that until it's just about finished, and then swap to a third bit of code or image that displays 100% (this is most common on websites or video game loading screens but I'm sure some program installers do this too). The real trick to it is like Tom said, making it a little janky so it _seems_ like a real progress bar.
@@ChrisD__ At the very least, as Linus had pointed out too, they don't take that much time with the updates nowadays.
I remember in my younger years when reinstalling Windows Me on a borked computer. And we'd put a piece of tape on the screen to mark the progress bar position, to see if it was really moving.
Hahaha. Good one.
Verified = Likes. Watch.
@@jcfiggy Verified comments > Verified comment mocking reply.
There is nothing wrong if the person is verified or not
Good times.
I always put my cursor where the line is and see if it moves haha.
If good old internet explorer taught me something, it is that progress bar is also capable to go to 100% and then return back to 99% and stay there for like 5 hours.
bruh
winrar showed me that a few times
you're an old interneter
When you're clicking it wondering wtf and "Explorer.exe has stopped working"
At least little kid me was smart enough to just rerun explorer.exe when my taskbar and stuff disappeared
My absolute favorite thing is when loading time estimates spit out stuff like "infinite" or "96 years." I don't see it happen as often anymore (and it's also unhelpful) but it's hilarious.
0% 14:34 remaining
7% 25:10 remaining
18% 2:10 remaining
63% 0 seconds remaining
92% 4 days remaining
100% 2 seconds remaining
@@Plumjet09 "2 seconds remaining" it says for a full 5 minutes. XP
I never minded those, since they were so amusing
Oh, a dead torrent file will guarantee you that experience. The feeling when you see that infinity sign...
infinite probably happens because of floating point
The bar: *goes to 99% instantly*
Also the bar:
*Takes 5 hours to finish*
Not gonna ruin it its in 111 like, not gonna like it cus its 111 not gonna break the chain. Because then it’s 112.
@@tofifichannel7199 You good?
@@tofifichannel7199 now its 222
@@deusvacui I ruined it sorry
@@tofifichannel7199 dude, it's 699 now... i definitely can't like it
*every programmer after trying to fix a small bug in their code:*
“It’ll still probably be wrong, but it’ll be differently wrong”
I remember raising off a defect for a system I was testing where adding a discount of 50% to a service which cost £24 would instead increase its price to £48. In the next release adding a discount of 50% to the service which cost £24 decreased its price to -£26. Wrong in a different way.
@@Darenz-cg9zg maybe it subtracted 50 from 24 (which would become 26) instead of 50% of 24.
I'd fire a programmer who thought like that. If you don't understand why your fix works, it probably doesn't.
@@quixomega You are not a programming manager, then. At least I hope not. Sometimes problems in complex codebases are incredibly confusing so you try a hail mary in an attempt to fix it and it works. In an ideal world you can spend forever debugging and figuring out what caused an issue. In the real world, you have deadlines to deal with and something needs to work ASAP. It doesn't matter how.
@@Pattoe From x2 to -50. dang.
Personally my favourite kind of progress bar is when there's two progress bars: the top one showing the progress of the overall process, and the bottom showing the progress of each individual task. That lets you actually see why some bits take longer, and in my opinion gives you a better approximation of the time left.
Loved that in older installers. Very informative and reassuring!
And in some cases help you with troubleshooting if somerhing crashes while loading :D
Thats good because you can actually see what is or isn't happening.
The only specific program I know that does that is WinRar while unpacking
@@derdarkl2890 As opposed to things like Limewire (remember Limewire?), whose loading screen had "steps" like "Scouring New York City for limes..." Which maybe the developers knew what it was actually doing at that point for debugging, but it means nothing to anyone else.
I feel like not enough people are showing appreciation for the timing skills he did for 1:24
Woah wow he can read time from his camera
Killjoy
@@B4NDIT_12 Also I doubt the video started rolling the very second he started speaking so he has to adjust for that too
@@B4NDIT_12 how would he know that its 5:10 long tho
@@realAwesomeXWell you don't have to be a prophet, just cut and edit it accordingly - maybe that's why it cuts mid sentence in the end 😂
“Why can’t they just tell you how long something will take?”- Because they don’t know.
Or they can calculate time but it's like "10 years left"
@@lmao7454 2 minutes left...30 minutes left....1 day left.... 70days left..... 148 Years left.. 30 seconds left.. DONE!!!
@I WÅNT ŞĖX !!! SĖĖ MY VIDEÓ !!! what are you ._.
@@lmao7454 abomination of mankind
@ʜᴇʟᴘ ᴛʜɪꜱ ᴅɪɴᴏ ʀᴇᴀᴄʜ 1 ꜱᴜʙ. Awwww! I choose to believe there's some good in humanity and that you're not just spamming. Happy Birthday, and I subbed.
I love it when a simple download says "2 years remaining" or "∞ time remaining".
"brb gonna download a game"
last seen 2 years ago
"yo bro downloaded that game, what did i miss?
@@wolfsyncc you missed my funeral
@@oofers9939 wait then who’s speaking-
@@Aeternus75 my funeral
@@wolfsyncc that's what my father said to me
never came back
The one thing that should never ever ever be displayed on a PC is "100% complete. Please wait"
But fr I get this a lot and it just doesn't make any sense. How is it 100% if I still have to wait like 1/4 time of the whole thing more.
Because 99,5% is rounded up. DUH!
@@dave2980 rounded up
Exactly. Defeats the very purpose of progress bars
Man's waited 5 years to download a game
My old internet setup was extremely prone to dropping connections temporarily, and it was really funny watching "time remaining" estimates steadily climb by several days of time before suddenly jolting back to a few minutes
Had satellite internet limited to 10 gigabytes before. When it ran out it reduced to dial-up speed. A download once shot up to 4 years.
So one day I was using my dell Inspiron 15 3000to download a steam game called world of tonks, it went like this from one hour to hour five hours three days 365+ more than a year. (It took a day and a half to install)
One time not very long ago I was updating a steam game, the estimating time remaining started at 5 minutes and steadily increased until it said "more than one year", before going back to 20 minutes
Progress Bar: Seems to be stuck.
Me: Putting the cursor just right on the end of the bar to see if it's still running.
Progress Bar process to get stuck because the mouse is blocking it
Hahaha! I do that too!
Omg ur stupid. If you put the mouse there it's gonna be in the way of the progress bar!
I can relate, I also do that.
Relatable
"It'll still probably be wrong, but it will be differently wrong" has to be my favorite tom scott quote
its a much more pleasing kind of wrong
Sheldon: More wrong? Wrong is an absolute state and not subject to gradation.
Stuart: Of course it is. It is a little wrong to say a tomato is a vegetable, it is very wrong to say it is a suspension bridge.
Tom scotte quot
"It'll still probably be wrong, but it'll be differently wrong..." - this sounds like almost every single update to every piece of software that ever existed.
😂😂😂
And a cause for celebration for the software developers.
hahahahaha
Every programmer trying to bugfix :(
@@HandledToaster2 true
Windows 10's updates take "meh, good enough" a little too casually though. It can sit on 21% for three-quarters of an hour then jump to 81% for 15 minutes more and then 98% and done in a few seconds. I suspect they decided to only update the progress bar after completion of (e.g.) each file installed, and that in the above scenario there are some really huge files that are complex to install and a few smaller / simpler files after that.
When it forces a U2 Song virus on you - no wonder it takes ages... 😪🤣
@@BassandoForte That was not Microsoft. That was Apple (on the iPhone, I think). And why would it have anything to do with a virus?
@@OLBastholm - Did you want it? Did it take up pointless hard drive space..?? And no - it was Windows 10 although Aople is just as unethical... 🤣
That's why I use Android... 😝
@@BassandoForte pointless? updates are there to keep your devices up to date with anti viruses, security and patches, i don't understand why people have a problem with Windows updates, it barely takes any time for me
@@vinson3725 - So you're happy they forxe pointless things like U2 tunes onto your PC..?? 🤔🤣
I love it when it takes 2 seconds to go from 0% to 99% and 1 hour to get to 100%
cough cough* steam installations
I know
Hahahahah
Same
@@treehugger8790 fr steam downloads in a nutshell
Wow, kudos to knowing the exact length of the video WHILST filming..
That's the perk of filming your video in One Take™
@@electron8262 you put a timer behind the camera and when you reach the point you just glance at it and say the time it displays. Cool trick nonetheless.
@@1xeshm Still had to know how long the whole video will be though, a timer behind the camera can't tell you what the time will be in the future for an unknown video length. Combination of editing start and finish to make sure it fits and rehearsals are the only ways I can think of to do that live
Editing can do magic.
@@gabormiklay9209 buuuuut it’s a one take, so there’s no cuts...
“.... and 24 seconds.” Smack bang on the 24 second mark. Now THAT’S attention to detail........
Or padding out the necessary time with the intro
@@feronanthus9756 one does not contradict the other, tbh.
I’m shook on how accurate this was
They just need to set a separate timer off to the side
As someone that has actually coded a very basic progress bar before, yes. It's near impossible to make it smooth, and yes, my answer was exactly the same. It shows that it's making progress and not frozen, and that's all that really matters. I have a new respect for progress bars after trying to make one actually function, and I had tutorials to figure out how to do it.
It's not very sophisticated to increment value by a little every time something completes... Estimating time is whole can of worms.
How about a neural network that learns from different machine settings how long tve overall process is going to take
I mean... How effective is it at showing that there is in fact progress going on when it sits unchanging at 25% for two minutes before racing all the way from there to 68% in less than two seconds.
"The download will complete in 5 minutes."
"I mean 10 minutes"
"I mean 99 days :O"
"Download complete"
I know 100% what the guy above is saying
@@josedevgd9566 smol brain
@@sauceypasta yes
The ps4 allwes starts at like 7 hours and gose to 20 mins (i like watching that tho its sayisfying)
LMAOOOO
Petition for Tom Scott to re-edit the title and fill the progress bar slowly every day.
this is the this many views video all over again
I had a fleeting impression that it was increasing along the video and got paranoid observing if there was some sort of magical trickery going on...but, no...just a normal title
petition signed (and I'm the 68th person to like your comment)
Mark Rober just a similar thing with his Mar Rover Perseverance intro video, each day the video was re-titled counting down to the landing.
No, it will get stuck where it's at for 6 months, then suddenly finish.
"Imma just let this update overnight"
*Goes to sleep... Wakes up... Opens laptop
"Would you like to install this device software?"
:/ i hate that
UNDERRATED COMMENT
or when windows crashes and updates the computer anyways. AT SEVEN IN THE MORNING.
"Press okay now to confirm installation." 😭
sudo dnf update
Whenever _you_ choose to update...
I remember from some games, that they would have an installer that had: a blue progress bar with a percentage. And on the left side of the screen would be three additional bars for showing you what each step of the installation was doing. So a bar for disk usage, etc. That was far more informational then just one bar with or without an ETA displayed.
(Windows 95/98 era).
The Epic Games Store still does that. It gives my eyes something to do while a game installs/updates.
@@nedmurry lmao same
Lemme get ANOTHER quick shoutout to WInrar the GOAT
@@nedmurry A point for epic games. They just gotta compress their files like steam does because i dont want to download 30 fricking gigabytes just to make games if i fan just downloaded 3gb instead from Unity
While it's not quite similar, Minecraft's Forge Mod Loader also tells you what it's doing; specifically, it has multiple progress bars, in increasing levels of detail, each with a step count. One for the main 7 or so steps of loading, then one for what it's doing within that step (i.e. loading a specific mod), then a third for what it's doing within that (i.e. loading individual textures).
The worst kind of progress bars are the ones that roll in a circle infinitely and it doesn't really mean anything. Sometimes the installation process freezes forever but the animation is still going.
That's not a progress bar, it's just a dumb animation. Still better than nothing, but not by much.
I believe the term for that is "Spinner". Ideally they should be used for tasks that only take a few seconds, because displaying a whole progress bar for something so short wouldn't be worth it.
@@hoodiesticks Actually, the point of them is to indicate a task that will take an indefinite amount of time, e.g. when you're downloading a file that you don't know the total size of.
they're there so you can tell whether or not the application has frozen and/or stopped working
Windows installation
“It’ll be wrong, but it’ll be *differently* wrong”
-Tom Scott
few things are better than causing a *different* error than before. specifically when a lot of time has been spont on that one error
Sometimes I'd rather have something be differently wrong. Usually it means I did something to change the outcome and that potentially leads towards success.
Checkout lines at the supermarket ARE the real life progress bars. You think that they're only a couple of shoppers ahead of you remaining but then one of them spends eons on counting their coupons and/or "remembering" to get one more thing and disappearing into the aisles!
Did they have to take a boat to get to the isles?
or the cashier's shift ends suddenly
Exactly - and wondering whether to switch to a different checkout is like deciding whether to cancel the download and try again from a different server
All these things sound like problems from back in the "human cashier" days.
@21st Century Socialist Cannot happen here, because every scanned item needs to go into the weighing area before it lets you scan the next. But I agree, I take longer at the self-checkout than a trained cashier would take to mark my items. So the waiting time becomes an important factor when choosing between the two options.
I am a computer security expert and you make a very good point about smooth progress bars representing something potentially malicious. Good stuff!
My favorite progress bars also have the optional "Details" feed that prints what's been happening. Seeing a lot of text print really quickly gives a satisfying indicator that "things are happening!"
If the detailed log is really detailed, this could actually slow down progress, because displaying stuff on screen also takes time
@Ezequiel Ciamparella it will take the same time with dummy text or meaningful text. Printing on console is the slow part, if you do it too much.
@Ezequiel Ciamparella What Pacífico said
@@doomse150 Depends - but just 1-2 lines per Second will have no noticeable impact unless you are really really bad at your job (or a web"developer").
@@ABaumstumpf 1 or 2 lines in a loop can really slow things down tho
Steam be like:
"Ok pal, this game will take 2 weeks... I mean 20 seconds... I mean 4 days, I mean 5 hours. . . I mean. . ."
I mean 5 hours .... 2 weeks .... finished
or 2 years.. im not kidding, steam actually said it'd take 2 years to download a game
@@kenji642 What game was it? And what were the computer specs?
relatable
99+ years
"Are you done?" "No." "When will you be done?" "I won't know until I'm done."
.
..
....
.....
......
I found this very interesting. My job is a performance test analyst, and we often find that performance issues in software is not the software itself, but the users perceptions of it. Have a user wait for something to happen with nothing going on, instant 'its running slow' report. Add a spinner, progress bar, literally any user cue that something is still happening and they'll be more tolerant. The software could actually be slower because it has to deal with updating the screen as well as the job it's trying to do, but users will be happy about it.
I once had Steam tell me a game wouldn’t finish downloading 4 years from now.
It’s been 5 years. Steam, where’s my game?
you got it yet?
You went 5 years without restarting your computer once?
Is there some sort of r/missedthejoke
Dang steam still hasn't given you your game
@@theuselessteammate2097 r/woosh
You always gotta love seeing
“ETA: 11960 hours 28 minutes 54 seconds”
What does ETA mean?
@@0_- ETA stands for estimated time of arrival, in this case it’s the amount of time the computer thinks will take for something to download.
37 seconds later *task complete*
ETA 2147483648 hours
Or like 99+ hours
* progress bar moves smoothly *
*_something's wrong I can feel it_*
Where is the n?
just a feeling i've got
@@jayageorge4278 I dunno,
Windows Troubleshooter feels targeted by this comment
Finally someone who asks right questions and gives precise and short answer in a concise manner - KUDOS to you mr Tom!
Even an actual queue acts like loading bars, many people just go straight through and then there’s one person who takes forever
At the cash machine there is always that person who acts like they've never used one before
Google Chrome has once shown me "8 years left" as the remaining time for a download. Sure, I can wait!
It's because it's Chrome. Too busy collecting your personal information to do the job. ;)
Premiere once showed me 939281827478383:23:07
Steam users:
PATHETIC
Super Smash Bros shows “280 hours left”
@@julius855 Oh, I get this all the time as well. My theory is that they keep calculating the "rolling average" even when the download is idle due to some external factor (i.e. the disk is busy so Steam can't write files to it), but they still proceed to throw those zeros into the calculation and you get "more than one year left".
I like it when they include something like a "3/16 modules loaded" or scroll names of current operations in plain text ( more common on linux machines) its a much more tactile sense that the machine is continuing to work, and seems a little more reassuring.
And then the Everquest progressbar started telling things like 'Attaching beards to dwarves.'
I've seen a post about someone complaining that "Their apps (or website, I forgot) tooks forever to load" and the company decided to do nothing except adding words like "Processing File (abc)..." and "Rendering assets (123)..." under the bar.
The same customer said that the loading screen are now faster than before HAHAHA.
@@Hxrb One of the beauties of UX. Just add in something to look at and the program appears to be more responsive. It even works for people who knows how that trick.
@@sulevturnpuu5491 Or the classic "reticulating splines" from SimCity 2000
@@whatis4295 Yes. Like turning on Linux machine.
How it feels normally: 5 minutes
How it feels when I hit arrow: 10 seconds
I don't know how many people will fully appreciate the fact that you knew in this long take exactly how long the video was going to be and mention exactly where in the video you are to the second. But with having a video editing background myself, oh boy, did I appreciate that! Well done! I loved it.
I was friends with a computer genius as a kid, and his parents always had the cutting edge tech to play around with. One thing I remember him saying is "When I grow up and program games, I'm going to make a load bar that runs smoothly." That was his one mission in life, haha.
i hope that guy becomes successful
I wish him well on his crusade for the perfect loading bar
We'll watch his carrier with great interest
The quest for the perfect progress bar
My idea is the active colored part moving smoothly, but the size of the end extends itself if the loading is buffering
Vista: "Estimating time remaining..."
*2 hours later*
Vista: "Estimating time remaining..."
Vista: "0 seconds remaining"
*Task finishes*
At least your task finished, legend says there are Vista computers out there that are still estimating the time remaining
haha funny because vista bad.. get it?
I think the disk can go faster but it'll take time to get to it's max speed at that current time
That particular issue is because the system is indexing files and it can take ages to do just that.
Ah yes, the Vista experience of everyone who've never used Vista.
The progressbar type I hate is the quick or smooth type, but just takes forever to confirm the last % because it skipped all of the other 99 bc of the smoothness
YES! YES! YES!!!!
Search in Windows Explorer does this and I hate it.
Windows Updates do this
*I'm being honest* , him knowing the exact length of the video time lapsed and telling the exact length of the video in between the video made me sub
Honestly: I find it much more important that software tells me _what_ it is doing. I like to see which files it is currently copying, or what step of the process it is currently on. I think that might be the one thing that infuriates me about apple machines the most: The almost complete lack of feedback.
Don't say that before you try final cut pro
also I'm a musical artist too! mind checking out my channel? :)
~reticulating splines~
@@FeplayBuilds No :3
To be fair, the more time, and processing power, that is put into feedback, and making sure the progress bar is accurate, the slower the actual task goes. Most progress bars are very simple because that is easy and doesnt slow anything down, although the processing power wouldnt matter for most things.
Steam: "installing.. estimated 0 seconds remaining."
*1 minute later*
I've had the opposite: download time remaining: 3 years.
Spoiler: it did not take three years. It was less than 15 minutes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Same with valorant update: More than a year.
I even saw some program say incalculable.
@@TaijiArban lmao that reminds me Windows once said that Valorant took up 3.4 terabytes of space (visual glitch) when it really took up like 13gb
I get that so often. Usually it sits at "0 seconds remaining" for at least 2 min.
@@AgentxRyan not progress bar-related, but your comment reminds me of installing an old game on a modern computer and the install program telling me the computer might not be able to run the game because it required 32 MB of RAM and I had only 4 GB.
I know you could easily just look at a timer but I was honestly more impressed at your 1:24 callout than the "this video has 10,646,282 views" video
It was done by 1) a good estimation of the script length with a few practice runs. 2) Leaving one cut at the intro to slide the body of the video up or down the timeline to have his callout match the timecode.
@@blaster-zy7xx Or there was just a clock next to the camera
Probably a teleprompter and a timer. And experience. And a few retakes.
And the nothingness at the end of the video. Just add the required amount of seconds needed to make the prediction accurate
Stopwatch and a buffer at the end of the video so the final length could be edited precisely.
My new favorite excuse is "I'm not wrong; I'm just differently wrong."
how you managed to time this single uncut monologue and casually describe the exact length of the video is a subtle nod to the pre production behind these videos. Great job as always Tom and team!
I don't even understand how they managed to pull it off.
@@wariolandgoldpiramid they used very good estimate and then they can hide the few seconds of error behind edits.
Reminds me of Tim Minchin's Three Minute Song
The outro had some leeway when it cut out, also the endcard could be increased/reduced. Also practice
@@Josh-ui7nq yes the Tom loading screen could also have been cut out if really that close
“it’ll still probably be wrong... just differently wrong!” is a perfect explanation of me going back to check my answers on a math test
Your comment is the reason why I like internet.
Me downloading a game off the PlayStation store: "Download will be complete in 50 minutes... 3 hours... 20 minutes.... 30 minutes... it's done."
then its stuck at "Copying...." for hours
You guys have anything other than a samsung s3?!
And GOOD INTERNET?!!
@@moreuse yes
It took me three days to download all the updates for Gran Turismo 6 on PS3 - with a freakin' 300 Mbit/s connection. I was using the disc copy, I might add. Why? Because someone at Sony decided that the best way to deliver updates on that system was by having each individual update install separately. This is a minor annoyance with a game that has received its normal three to five patches over its lifespan, but with GT6, this meant installing 22 patches, one after the other, each of them at least hundreds of megabytes large on a system with a hard drive that would have been slow in 2006 and a processor that is fine in a supercomputer, but utterly incapable of quickly decompressing large amounts of data. And the system inevitably failed at installing some of these patches, even crashed during one over night download session, because it's from 2006 and Sony's engineers were taking crazy pills at the time, so I had to delete everything and restart again twice. Those three days were the successful installation run and don't include previous failed ones. Naturally, Sony's servers were also slow as hell, for some reason, which didn't make it any faster.
Let's just say the PS3 is the last Sony console I've ever bought. The game's great though and it was totally worth the effort, but holy hell, what a nightmare.
People: I need a better computer
Physicians: Just flip the monitor sideways so the bar goes down due to gravity
yup
..... Physicists?
@@___Zack___ not a typo, my doctor also prescribed me the same thing instead of viagra.
@@bosselotiscanon Ha! not gonna lie, that was actually fantastic 😆
I remember back in the 2000's , the bars had little reference and animation. So I would put my cursor lined up with the bar to see if it was moved.
+1
Waaaay before that. I did it in Norton Commander days...
yup😂😂 , I did the similar , I used to remember like: " it was below the letter "e" , now it has moved from there.
I remember doing the same!
Haha same
When my torrent downloads shows _"63 years remaining"_ I'm like "great, I'll leave it downloading and come back when I'm 84." Ten minutes later: _" seeding"_
Always love it when that happens. One time I got like 500 bytes per second. It hurt, but at least the download wasn't completely stalled
Nothing worse than going back to check on the download and seeing that it's on 99% but all the seeders are gone😂
@@laurinneff4304 I always increase my seed ratio like 10-100x higher than my default limit when that happens, hoping to offset the ppl that just leech, and maybe ultimately bringing the speed a bit higher for later ppl
Heh is Bittorrent still a thing? Been years since I last saw these terms used :) Seeding! Had forgotten! And share ratio!
@@jaakkopontinen yep! it gets used for linux ISOs quite frequently
The real pain is when it starts going backwards.
Hello there
@@tk36_real general Kenobi
@@tk36_real General Kenobi
"I've come to bargain"
@@kislayanand4641 no, you came here to be general Kenobi
imagine the progress bar in the title actually started to move, I would freak the fck out
This guy out here answering the real questions
Can we just take a moment to appreciate how Tom said "4" at the exact moment the time became 1:24
Probably had a timer in front of him
Probably edited the intro to fit perfectly
@@SomeBlokeWhoTravelsALot explain?
@@SomeBlokeWhoTravelsALot the easy part is editing the outro’s length to make the video 5:10. As for saying 1:24 at 1:24, a timer seems like a valid explanation to me. And then slightly adjust when the video starts so it lines up almost perfectly. Though I might be missing something, I’m not too sure what’s strange about that?
Me: "Mom I'll be done with my homework in 15 minutes"
Me 2 hours later: "Mom I promise I just need five more minutes"
This is an excellent video topic, and I've devastated I didn't think of it.
You probably should have used an AI to come up with it.
Yes
To be fair though if you decides to make one sometime in the future you know very well I'd watch it too
Well, *that's* progress.
*I'm*
Yes. I'm a programmer, and I take a "janky" progressbar that I can feel/see is directly tied into the operation before some "fancy" artificial smoothness where I have no way to judge whether it's not just an animation completely unrelated to what's happening (or even to the fact whether something is happening or not).
I think progress bars only make sense with a single characteristic of a task. Download progress bars are actually really good. They tell you progress, rate and estimated time remaining. Combining multiple characteristics together is lazy and misleading. However its a disease with computing that the user shall have no idea what the blackbox is doing. Really a computer could be providing much more meaningful statuses on its tasks. But it'd require a lot more than a progress bar.
@@Furiends well the question is: why *do* you need to know what it's doing? For the vast majority of apps, it's not necessary.
@@Furiends
A list of progress bars (progress bar 3/8) isn't that much harder than 1 progress bar.
@@ammyvl1 well let's say youre in a hurry and need to leave your wifi, the progression can help you decide whether to wait for awhile or stop the process and do it again later
In our stuff we tend to make a "wizard" style progress bar, something you'd see, say, in winxp installation, where it would give you a checkmark list of things to do and progress for the current thing it's doing
"It will be differently wrong."
I'll use that when I don't want to admit when someone is more correct.
I use something similar in programming. If I can get a program that was failing to fail differently, then I've learned something.
Now I really want to get in line for the UFO experience.
I'm sure we've all done this, placed our mouse cursor right at the current position of a progress bar, so we can see if it's actually moving when we check on it again after some arbitrary amount of time.
Not okay, boomer.
@@roietbd2992 you on mobile or something? everyone does that!
@@roietbd2992 Shut tf up
I have made a game out of keeping my cursor _just_ out of reach of the bar, and keeping it as close as can be without touching it. The suspense of 'will I have to move my cursor some second in the next hour?' really helps time pass.
i put my finger and always thought i moved it and the bar hasn't moved
I'm impressed how you nailed 1:24 in your script. Very consistent
@꧁ RITA - F**UСК МЕ ꧂ you’re a mistake
I'm sure Plainrock would be proud
All you really need to do to do that is to have [current time] in the script and then have a timer next to it showing exactly how long has passed. Just read the time there when you get there.
@@Murzac And adding the intro time
I imagine Tom is referring to a stopwatch.
"computers are mysterious boxes" this is every highschool computer science class in a nutshell
If you want to make them less mysterious, I'd suggest watching BenEater's series building a computer on breadboards.
I have 2 degrees in computer science and have been programming for nearly a decade and they’re still just mysterious boxes to me. If anything it’s all the more magical
@@rlamacraft the more you know about computers the less you understand
"it's magic, joel"
@@rlamacraft whoever came up with the basics of how software and hardware is integrated to make a computer is the real genius here. I mean in terms of software or program actually changing how electrons are rerouted in the processor using nothing but electric potentials applied at different places- all working non-mechanically. That's the one thing that I still don't understand and I am a developer too.
Who's every been in a supermarket queue, things are moving along smoothly, then the person in front of you needs a price check, an item replaced or has some payment issue. All of a sudden, your progress bar is stuffed!
"The most important job is just to reassure the user that yes, things are happening; progress is being made..."
Shout out to Web pages which put a "spinner" gif directly in their HTML, so it always appears; even if the JS that fetches the content is broken/missing.
I disable js by default and often get tricked into thinking a page is loading just to realize that I didn't even allow it to run js yet.
@@katjastrand3955 You disable js, really? Wow, are you from 2008?
@@dasten123 I use uMatrix to allow each domain individually to use scripts or css or media etc.
@@dasten123 if you disable JS you can access nearly all of the paywalled news or magazine article websites. The paywall never loads but the article does
@@watsonwrote wait, really?
I think some progress bars are liars, like the ones with backwards-flowing animations that give the illusion of forward progress, or the ones that creep forward ever so slightly as if a page is still loading, even though the internet connection has clearly dropped. Grr/sigh.
Progress bars are NOT the problem. It is **dumb programmers** who can't calculate how long something will take because no one cares about performance anymore.
_Just throw more hardware at the problem!_ /s
The purpose of progress bars is to make the waiting time easier for you. They're not lying if they're advancing without making "progress", because the time left to wait is decreasing. Just my 2¢
how about when it rounds up to "100%" despite not being done?
No, 100% means done, not nearly done. I think rounding up is okay except it should cap at at 99% and only go to 100% as part of a finishing transition (if you want to waste the user's time with one).
@@crashdemons Yup, that's a perfect example of lazy programming! Rounding down to the nearest integer or (round down to 2 decimal places) would be clearer.
My favorite vague "progress bar" is probably tied between windows 95 copy dialog where pages move from one folder to another, and the cable box reboot saying "setting up".... "Getting close"..... "Almost there". Jk those are the worst. The best are when they say in a game for example, "lighting torches, sharpening swords, assembling the king's men etc."
"Less than 1 minute remaining", Yes 1 Microsoft minute...
Love Microsoft Minutes. "23 Minutes remaining" means anything from 7 minutes to 32 hours.
@@dave0smeg ahh
Don't quote me on this, but I think that behaviour comes from the way caching is handled. Essentially, most OSs will take some RAM that's unused at the moment and use it to cache disk writes to make them faster or even save some write operations if the same thing is modified multiple times.
The Windows Explorer doesn't know about that and just hears from the OS that files are being written, but not whether they are written to RAM or the actual disk. But the developers of Explorer probably thought of that, so to be sure the Explorer will tell the OS to flush the cache, (i.e. tell it to write all cached from RAM to the disk) before closing the copy dialog. They just didn't think to make a progress bar for that or adjust the existing one.
1 minute later. "2 hours remaining"
5 minutes later. "Done."
Similar to The World. Dio's monologues that are supposed to be 7 seconds long can be anywhere from 10 seconds to 10 minutes.
The fact that Tom can tell you inside of the video how long it will be AND the exact second that s clip plays in advance is crazy.
“It said something about a bios being updated, I waited like five minutes but nothing changed, so I restarted the pc.”
This comment caused me physical pain.
That's why redundant firmware loaders were implemented as soon as flash memory became cheap enough to do so. The machine can checksum the primary firmware and, if it falls, load the secondary as a backup.
oh
oh god
no
please no
There was a big red "DO NOT TURN OFF" alert but I didn't turn it off, I just reset it
@@TheNasaDude this caused even more physical pain.
Everybody gangsta until the progress bar leaves the monitor
*progress bar goes to 101%*
I mean it has happened a few times with me, right here on youtube while watching a premiere/live stream (on landscape). The bar would go beyond, touching the edge of the screen
@@archanashukla499 you gotta reconfigure your monitor or something. that's not how youtube videos should behave
„It will still be wrong but differently wrong“ that’s how I generally approach my exams at university
ჰო
I’ve been a software developer for decades and I still find myself trying to explain to people that the progress bar shows how much of all the tasks the program needs to perform have been done, not how much time it’s going to take to do those tasks
Since things have gone largely internet based (which can be a total crapshoot), progress bars have largely been replaced with spinning loading things because we developers have essentially given up on trying to give any predictions and just want to let the user know “we’re still doing something, please continue wait”
HOW DID YOU PUT THAT 1:24 IN THE SCRIPT TOM. I NEED ANSWERS. PLEASE. This is blowing my brain rn
THIS
I'd read a stopwatch I started when I started talking, if it were me.
Probably a placeholder until the edit was Finalise
YES!! I came to ask this
He's got a few variables to play with - the length of his intro is the main one. Also any pause in him speaking when he's not on screen. If you have an estimate of how fast you speak (most experienced speakers do) then it's not too hard.
When I see a loading bar that's perfectly smooth I know it's just for display and doesn't represent actual activity. Either on scam websites, some games, or other places.
But they could simulate a jittery progress bar.
some games will use a high estimate for the loading time and just use that every time, and make you wait a little longer every time even if it loads faster, and just sorta bug out if loading takes longer. Elite Dangerous, for instance, when you jump between systems there is an animation that plays which is actually hiding the loading, and if it takes too long its called "tunneling". Other games might implement elevators, decontamination chambers, all sorts of stuff.
Breath of the Wild takes an interesting approach: They know the average time it takes to load and programmed the progress bar to be as fast as this average loading time.
If loading takes longer than expected, the progress par stops at 95% filled.
If loading is already completed, they fastly fill the progress bar and continue.
Or Windows has many of it's progess bars replaced with animated images.
@@Cheesus-Sliced that sounds like a very cool topic
"Maybe the computer just thinks it needs maintainance."
This guy definitely uses Windows.
ikr
Like for example, Background Intelligent Transfer Service is neither "background" nor "intelligent." I'm actively using my PC, watching streaming video or whatever, then BITS kicks on and suddenly my ability to do anything on the internet dissipates. It literally uses all of my bandwidth and the only solution is to stop the service.
@@JohnDCrafton if it helps, BITS is the downloading part of Windows Update, so I wouldn't leave it disabled! Check updates in settings next time to see if it's an update you can pause instead maybe, and if there's any options in update scheduling that seem wrong? Keep in mind it doesn't have much of an option if you're literally turning your PC on, watching a video then turning it off, for example, but even then the impact shouldn't be that big.
Me: Oh sht I have a school test I need to do
Windows: Update go brrrr
Also windows 1 hour later: "Couldnt install update"
@@SimonBuchanNz I don't disable the service, I just stop it. It restarts itself eventually.
@@SimonBuchanNz It doesn't help that I only have 1.5 Mbps download. My ISP sucks.
But it's not my ISP's fault that Windows believes it needs all of my 1.5 Mbps to download updates "in the background".
Tom: Progress bar not smooth
TH-cam progress bar: WHAT ABOUT ME
Lag: Well I counter you and many others.
tom: "LIke scammy websites that make you artificially wait ten seconds for something to load so they can show you an advert in the meantime"
youtube: *sweating profusely
Hahahahah😂
Right? I hate how TH-cam now says you have to wait for the advert to stop then you can watch your video.
@@jackkraken3888 I wouldn't use youtube at all if i didn't have an adblocker.
When I'm on my cell phone, I simply report the ad as irrelevant. That way I close the ad before the 5 seconds pass.
@@brunnomenxa or you can use the adblock browser :)
"The most important job is to reassure that yes, things are happening, progress it being made"
That moment when the progress bar is stuck at 99% for about 28 minutes...
Mobile games mostly.
Right?
I have this experience 99% of the time when copying large files over the network and USB cables. It seems to display "data read and sent", but the receiving computer still needs to "shelf it" to the external.
And then it fails
it's when you know isht hit the fan.
"It will still be wrong, but it will be differently wrong"
I love that.
To further ensure the user knows that the program hasn't crashed, it's always nice to add a "time elapsed" counter as well
Going from 99% to 100% is one of the biggest emotional rollercoasters you can go on in life.
99%. 2 hours later.
100%. 3 minutes later, download failed please try again.
Like an asymptotic function - you get ever so near, but never reach it. Progress bars should grow decimal places after 99%: 99% -> 99.x% -> 99.9x% -> 99.9999999x% etc.
Dislike
It's not much compared to going from 100% to "done"...
try 100% to actually finished -_-
One thing i have learned from the internet is that smooth-moving progress bars are sketchy and you should always stop whatever they are doing.
yep
Some scams are smart enough to have the progress bar pause suddenly just to sell the illusion
1:23 HOW
Best guess is a live stopwatch timer.
there's padding at the end of the video
@@rolu9345 i believe Leoreo said HOW in response to Tom calling out the current time in the video, not the edited in visual
Guessing current time: Multiple practice takes to keep flow, combined with a clock of some kind that Tom can see.
Guessing video length: Full script rehearsals to gauge rough length of the video before recording, plus tweaking the credits at the end to make sure it's accurate.
EDITING
It was probably originally (when written) "There's [length] of video, and we've got through [length]" and once the pacing had been worked out you just put the real values in. Any slight variations can be fixed with video editing (you'd be surprised how little you notice a
You could probably design a loading bar that manipulates human emotion to convince us to be patient and constantly thinking it is always almost over.
It's true, a smooth progress bar actually makes it seem less reliable, it needs to be a little janky. And admit it, we've all felt that little rush of joy when a slow bar suddenly jumps ahead by a lot!
Yup, one time I was resetting my pc and it was stuck at 14% for near a day then when it jumped to 90% I was so relieved
I always just assumed it was in chunks like that because that’s just how it was. I never thought to question it
"The loading bar do be irregular doe" - Sun Tzu, The art of Computer Science
@@jaydubelyew6811 tecnoblade
@@CoderGautam jrem
Question everything
@@CoderGautam Jschlatt
I like how you became ASCII art when the "old style progress bar" appeared, just so that you'd fit in the scene.
You did not search for this video, it was randomly recommended.😑