Hi everyone! Thanks for taking the time to watch this one! A lot of facets to Atmos in general, and I think anytime Apple gets involved, it’s worth paying attention to what comes from that. Thanks for being part of the conversation! And I look forward to the next few videos coming out as we prep for CES! See y’all soon!
There is a massive opportunity in classical music recorded natively in Atmos. There are a lot of enthusiasts who want to hear an orchestra sound just like it does for the conductor, and who would rebuy all manner of repertoire if it were recorded by a top shelf orchestra with state of the art sound. I'm one of them.
Isn’t a good conductor trying to present music in the best way to the audience, the whole audience, in an auditorium, versus Atmos which will present music that works in only a very small location in an expensively created dedicated listening space?
@@MaBaKar How is this different than 2 channel recording (of which I own and cherish many hundreds). I am an audience of one. Why would I not want as immersive and high quality a recording as I could get for home listening?
To take advantage of the highest quality of object-based audio where different musical instruments are being presented in different parts of the listening environment. To experience this format non virtually, not only would one have to go with at least a 9 Channel speaker configuration with at least 4 height channels. And to experience a Dolby Atmos mix natively, the sound mixer would have to record groups of musical instruments separately. Plus the difference between streaming 2-Channel quality and Dolby Atmos quality, the former is Lossless, and the latter is lossy. Hence, for quality Dolby Atmos playback, Blu-rays are the only way to go @matthewweflen
Apple Music should give us the ability to rate the mixes. That way the users will have a scale for what people think is a good mix or not and uploaders will be incentivized to correct their mixes.
@@conorfurlong I think that most people would know what a good immersive mix is. Sound quality is a different thing and it's not the issue here. Also, I would think that most people who take the time to rate something are probably passionate about it. The casual pop user will pass on it. Anyway, I don't really believe that AM will do such a thing, so all my words are for nothing :)
@@Mr.Grimble You have much greater faith in humanity. I on the other hand have very little, especially when it comes to popular opinions on what qualifies as ‘sounding good’. Have you checked out the charts in recent years? In addition, the quality of a mix is dependent on a multitude of factors, including on what equipment did the listener choose to listen to it? Speakers? Headphones? Ear buds? Quality of speakers or headphones or earbuds? It’s not like reviewing a song or a film. Reviewing a mix is much more complicated. What sounds great to someone on their listening set up might sound awful to someone else on theirs. And I don’t trust people to know the difference. A user review system is a bad idea.
@@thecapone45 sorry to burst a bubble but you might be using the Spatialise Audio feature that does the same thing 3D tvs used to do by making 2D stuff into 3D. Not actual 3D content as google states Spotify doesn’t support spatial
I'm an audio engineer and I've opted out of mixing music in Atmos. It's not even just that I'd have to invest at least $20 grand on a speaker array.. the fact that Apple Music doesn't even use the Dolby decoder is total insanity. I have no interest in switching to Logic... how do I know how the Apple decoder is going to interpret my mix if I'm mixing the track using the Dolby encoder? Most "spacial audio" tracks on AM sound like they're being played through PA speakers in an empty club and SERIOUSLY lack the energy of the stereo mix. When normal people on the AM reddit are asking why their music sounds bad when playing from their iPhone, but sounds fine when playing from their Mac and it's because spacial audio is on by default on the iPhone, I think it safe to say there's a very big problem. On top of that, artists themselves seem generally pretty apathetic about Atmos and spacial audio. The whole thing is a mess.
I’ve been mixing in Atmos for almost a year . The speaker mix is the best experience,however, the vast majority of music fans will probably never hear a properly calibrated speaker system, if any at all . I have heard many disastrous Atmos mixes ,binaurally and speaker wise . Who, at these labels are checking these mixes , at all ?
Yeah. I’ve turned it off because I’m tired of the vocals sounding like they’re down the street from the band. “POV” by Ariana Grande is the perfect example of how Apple’s Dolby Atmos ruins songs. It literally sounds like her microphone malfunctioned during a concert.
They are pushing Atmos music but their own music app doesn't even support Atmos on all but apple TV boxes I believe. The apple TV app on the other hand seems to widely support Atmos. So for example you can have both the apple music and the apple TV app on your TV but the music app won't support Atmos while the apple TV app will, why? This makes zero sense. Surely if your pushing a service you want to have it as easily accessible as possible, but hey what do I know I'm just your target demographic 🤣 Talking about actual atmos multi channel here, as opposed to Atmos on headphones.
Tech Dad is correct, A lot of music does sound horrible when using Apple's Spatial or Dolby sound enhancements. it works for movie type environment, for music, not so much. be it on headphones (Nura over the ear I have) or the surround in the car, it just doesn't work for all types of music. i keep it off now. it ruins many classic rock, R&B or disco tracks.
What a great video this was. I feel like Caleb has more creative space now? Idk, but between this video and the you asked series, what a joy it is to watch this channel! (Keep the fun little bits :D!!)
I don’t care what anyone says, listening to Spatial Audio on AirPods is not the same as listening on a real multi-speaker Dolby Atmos system. It’s a completely different, drastically inferior listening experience, and Apple is pulling a con on everybody by trying to conflate the two
How is it con to slightly elevate the music experience free of cost for many users. Everyone knows multi speaker setup is better than even good headphones.
@@frankreynolds9930 listening to Dolby Atmos mixes in a purpose built Atmos studio can be a revelatory experience. In my opinion as a music professional, listening to Spatial Audio on earbuds captures none of that magic and often is an inferior listening experience even to stereo. Most listeners have never sat and listened in a real Atmos studio so they have no point of comparison. They see the Dolby Atmos logo on Apple Music songs and assume it’s the same thing. It’s not. That’s the con Apple isn’t offering Spatial Audio out of the goodness of their hearts. They’re doing it to sell more iPhones, AirPods, and eventually, vision headsets. Also to get a leg up over Spotify which doesn’t yet offer Spatial Audio
To me a good (not excellent ) atmos mix is way better than 2 channels on AirPods. I agree it is better to hear it fully on a speaker system but for anything else, AirPods do wonders
I switched Atmos OFF because i just don’t care enough about that game of “is this atmos mix going to suck?” The answer is almost always yes, so no atmos for me.
I would love a breakdown between mixing songs for Sony's 360 Reality Audio and Dolby Atmos. I have heard some Sony mixes and they are hit or miss. When they are good they are fantastic. I just wish there were easier and more ways to get spacial audio in a home theater setup since the focus has been headphones.
Sony 360 audio for gaming works so well because games are created in lpcm and so all the data is already there. With music, most music is recorded in stereo and that's why it's super complicated to convert that into good Atmos. For Atmos music to be easier, studios need to be recording in Atmos and Stereo, have 13 speakers in the studio, 11 for Atmos, 2 for stereo
Oof…I just hope with these incentives in place that there aren’t any deadlines with it. That’s where corners are cut, like with movies that have a release date even before a script is written. Just take the necessary time to make it the best it can be, and I’m good with incentives.
Billie Eilish was my first experience with Spatial Audio on Apple and I was floored!! Otherwise, it’s a “mixed” bag (sorry couldn’t resist😂)! There is definitely a difference between Spatial and merely spacious, or worse. Also I don’t find listening to Spatial on my new AirPods Pro nearly as mind boggling as on my speakers on both my systems (when done right) and don’t think much of the head-turning thing. So glad you brought this up!! I have always considered myself an audio purist, but when done well Spatial is amazing!!
I have an Atmos track for a song I like and it makes it sound like ass playing from an Apple TV to a 7.4.2 home theater. The TH-cam version sounds so much better which is crazy due to the compression
Some Atmos music sounds great like the Beatles remixes. Some of it sounds awful. Up the Bracket by the Libertines is almost unlistenable in Dolby Atmos. Another terrible Atmos mix is Won't Back Down by Tom Petty. They completely buried the guitar solo
Good. Hopefully it kills the format entirely. If atmos became the standard it would make independent home studio produced music a total monetary impossibility, just like it was prior to modern digital recording becoming accessible to regular consumers.
We can’t even get well mixed, dynamic stereo music mixes lol. Atmos is cool but such a niche. 90% of people consuming these mixes are probably using airpods or a soundbar.
As an audio mix engineer, enthusiast on atmos in general and its benefits over traditional formats, this is a very complicated matter that can’t be fully explained in a TH-cam video, never mind comment. It’s way more complicated than what you have (very well) laid out, and at the moment we are in a transition that apple is “promoting” so the format doesn’t die right away as many others have in the past. There are too many variables in place, and you’ve placed many but there are more. What it comes down to in the end is a conflict of interests in all parts involved and none willing to take the risk, and the education to the general public on why atmos is superior to the traditional formats and why it matters. Which you are dealing with, but at the end of the day, the general public is still listening to low quality mp3s as the holy grail. It’s a hard battle
Caleb, I am a fan. Especially since I too live in the Portland area. I have been listening to surround mixes since SACD DSD and DVD Audio with Advanced Resolution, then BluRay Audio, and now of course Dolby Atmos. I was very excited for Apple’s roll out and was extremely disappointed at first. I knew that there was a push to get people to remix huge albums in Atmos and it was a rush job. There were a few gems like Kraftwerk who had already put out their album in a 5.1 mix. But then I started hearing some better mixes, and finally Tears for Fear’s album The Tipping Point was a masterpiece in Atmos. That was mixed by Steven Wilson who also had been working in the 5.1 surround format for years. I loath that most people’s experience with Atmos music will be in headphones. I have AirPods Pro and it does very little especially compared to my 7.1.2 home theater. The mixes are getting better as producers are learning the new format, and we have had some amazing 2 channel mixes and absolutely terrible 2 channel mixes since the beginning of stereophonic music. We will come to recognize and praise brilliance in Atmos mixing and I hope we get Grammy Awards for best Atmos mix so there’s recognition and benchmarks to try and rise to for budding mixers out there. One last thing, your last three seconds of the video got me to hit the LIKE button! Cracked me up!
Understanding "SPATIAL AUDIO", starts with understanding that not all multichannel mixes are equal. Most Dolby mixes on Apple, unless mixed from scratch, are basically a DSP, something Yamaha receivers have done for years. You get L+R+ a mix of both in the center with vocals pushed up + Reverb in the rear with the bass usually lacking. Unremarkable and gimmicky at best, and occasionally so bad that they are pulled: Seal, Florence mysteriously vanished from Apple Music shortly after release. Those who go in the Studio with the intention of doing mixes (or remixes) with proper spatial placement standout by a mile: Brian Eno, Peter Gabriel, Souldive and of course Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon sound incredible. But great mixes are few, and even if you find them, Apple Music is limited to 48Mhz, which will never reach the resolution of a multi-channel Blu Ray or SACD. It's a great marketing tool for Apple, but way too "niche" for labels and artists to bother to invest in it, and when they do, they usually want to push physical media.
Great video. I’ve been an avid surround mix collector for over a decade and was thrilled to hear about Spacial audio coming to streaming. I agree some of the tracks particularly in the early days were awful. It seems like now things are fine to exceptional. I wish the experience was more accessible to home listeners without having to make a large investment.
I listen to the Made for Spatial playlist on Apple Music and find myself skipping over certain tracks I don’t find satisfying. Maybe they are fine, but I am not wowed.
Dolby Atmos shouldn't be used for music unless that music is specifically created for it, it adds nothing to the creation when another random person is tasked with rearranging it. It's a remix in all but title unless the original artist is involved directly. Keep Atmos for movies, that's where we need spatial audio. There will always be a massive divide between Atmos in headphones and on a proper multi-speaker system and you know Apple is going to prioritize its own headphones. I hope we don't kill this awesome movie tech to make some money from idiots while the audiophiles laugh from the sidelines watching as stereo is once again in the ring against a competitor. We know how all the previous bouts went.
Oooooooooooooo can KTC PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make us a 40ish-65ish" monitor!?!?!?! 😮 You play the trumpet!? I play the trumpet!! Trumpet buddies woohoo!!! 😂😂😂
Actually some AI cover tracks are really good. There’s Austrian painter that die in 1945 AI cover of “Billy Jean” and it really does sound like him singing Billie Jean! Maybe WW2 might’ve not happened if he know he could sing… Also Freddie AI cover of “my heart will go on” sound every bit like what you would’ve imagine him to sound like if he got the chance to sing it… a lot of people did weep.
I appreciate that you deferred to someone with more knowledge about atmos music. I am not sure that Channa is the best person to defer to however. Much like doctors on the news, the people most available to "interview" are often (not always) doing work of the least consequence. SACT and JNT's MBTT are hugely important to the extent that they optimize people's setups. This is a lot like taking my first drumset and giving the sticks to a pro--he will do wayyyy more with it quality wise. I think channa raised some red flags before he fullly understood (mouth started before ears were finished) and stirred up a lot of nothing in regards to the mixes of atmos movies. Compared to me, channa is definitely way more knowledgable and capable. Compared to people who do this professionally, channa is me. It would have been far more advantageous to just grab a David Frangioni for something like this. He is exactly who you are looking for in this instance.
The timing of this video is so funny Caleb.. I just yesterday cancelled my Apple Music subscription.. I was naive that my HT A9 was receiving atmos via apple music app on lg c1 oled.. But the added cost of apple tv is no go for my setup.. Switching to amazon music for now as at least it supports sony 360 RA so i can use my a9 to full potential
Dolby Atmos for music is not a filter you add on top of it. They must be manually remixed and have audio elements moved around the space. You clearly have never experienced it yourself yet. Welcome to 2024 where you don’t need 753,627,845 speakers on the ceiling to experience a 3D sound space.
This is not like duophonic like they did with Stereo back in the 60s where they took Mono and filtered out different frequency ranges and then panned them left and right; you have to manually remix the song to work in this multidimensional aspect, so they are still mastering it the way they want to, it’s just more effort
It has to be remixed or remastered in atmos, “Spatial Audio” is Apple’s version that’s optional and has head tracking to keep the sound coming from your device so it’s like you’re in a true surround speaker environment
Let's be honest, there are some crap spatial audio mixes on Apple Music. I just upgraded my home theater system with all Kef Meta speakers in a 5.1.2 setup. I had high expectations. The variability in quality is significant. One Alanis Morissette song sounded like she was singing from behind me. WTF
This will go the exact same way that modern mastering goes. Record companies tell mastering engineers how to master a track and the engineer has to comply, even if that means making a horribly over-compressed track solely aimed to pop out on TikTok and Instagram. Record companies we tell atmos engineers what they want and those engineers will do it, even if it means horrible mixes. Because record companies want fast, easy cash. Knowing how record companies behave, I guarantee you that the vast majority of atmos mixes - other than prestige releases such as Dark Side of the Moon - will be unlistenable.
Thank for sharing here. I know I have heard some atmos tracks on Apple Music, that really didn't impress me at all. I will note, Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and INXS's Kick were both awesome atmos mixes, that I actually listened to on the blu-ray discs.
There is a lot more that sounds great, but you have to dig for it, unfortunately. Try finding Billy Joel’s Pianoman in Atmos. They did a top notch job on that one for sure!
I agree with your concerns. I’m a huge of Atmos and I’m really hoping they don’t ruin it. I think they need a better to certify Atmos to ensure a quality product is being delivered.
Anyone who starts by saying Dark Side Of THe Moon sounds awesome in ATMOS is just wrong. I have it add I have the full multichannel ATMOS system to play it on and it just shows the limitations of the studio tech at the time. INXS sounds strange also. The best Bluray Atmos disk that shows off all the advantages of todays tech and the ATMOS tech is Hans Zimmers 'live in Prague' disk. nothing beats it. If anyone knows a better recording PLEASE tell me ;-)
Atmos is Surround which basically is 5 or 7 speakers so difference in listening experience will only be noticeable while listening in the same setup but not headphones or stereo sound system.
I think this will only potentially be bad for smaller indie artists due to the incentives. Big named artists will not let their art be rushed and ruined for some cash. For example, Beyoncé’s renaissance was only available in stereo for almost a year. Now it’s available in atmos and it’s significantly better.
IT SOUNDS SHIT. I was listening to the new Nick Cave and whenever I turned my head the poor guy sounded like he was weaving and bobbing around the soundstage. It didn't add to the music. It was distracting and awful. I just tried to show a younger person Camarillo Brillo by Zappa. It was a lifelesss turd. I turned off the Atmos setting on my Mac (listening through three way Genelec on an HD system in a recording studio) and it still sucked. I pulled out the CD and we were grooving our asses off.
The playback device should be able to tell what it will be playing over before the audio starts and then playback the “version” that’s suited for the device.
I love Apple Music but most of the Atmos tracks/albums I’ve listened to, the music sound washed out and quieter. So I’ve switched to stereo for now. Hopefully things change.
I agree with every point you have raised in your video. Dolby Atmos music, when implemented well, is such a great listening experience. In general, I prefer an experiencing a well created Dolby Atmos music track over listening to that same track that is as well mixed in stereo only. The only caveat is that the Dolby Atmos mix must be implemented with care and attention to detail. The only point I would like to add to the discussion is that it is in Apple’s corporate DNA to provide its customers with a premium product/service where every detail has been carefully considered and refined so as to meet, and even exceed, the expectations of their customers. Apple wants to delight their users with an experience that is (for the most part) uniquely available to Apple customers. Given Apple’s long history of designing and building market leading products and services, I remain (mostly) confident that Apple is keenly aware of how great a well mixed Dolby Atmos track can sound versus how a poorly mixed Dolby Atmos track sounds. As such, it would be of no surprise to me that Apple will have worked hard behind the music scene with all relevant parties to ensure that Dolby Atmos music tracks will be mixed with great care to meet the high expectations Apple has for itself and its customers.
Well, I disagree! There are a lot of good songs out there on Apple Music that sound amazing! AirPods 2nd Gen 🙋🏼♂️. I can’t hear to ATMOS on HomePods Mini because I guess it needs more volume. Producers should work on ATMOS if the want a masterpiece if it’s just for the tag then it’s Apple’s fault but production
Another boring Atmos sucks guy. Stop the crap OK ! Engineers are just learning how to mix music with Atmos. It's a learning curve. I did not spend a fortunate for my 7.4.4 set up . I am using Dirac Live and Techno dad's Calibration to tune my room. It sounds so good, my wife likes it. I try listening to stereo from time to time but I find it boring, lacks dimension and depth. Basically, stereo is boring. The future for sound is bright. BTW: Apple makes Logic Pro which allows you to mix in Atmos. Great piece of a software to move engineers into the 22nd Century.
Dude said the quiet part out loud: Dolby doesn't work. Dolby has the stems and literally mixes the song. The translation to stereo, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1.4 fails. Maybe also be an end-user calibration problem. Just too complex to do well.
About a month ago I borrowed a Apple TV 4K and listen to the Apple music Atmos tracks on my incredibly high quality 5.1 system. To say the least I was pretty underwhelmed with 90% of what I heard. One of the big problems is of course it's lossy with each channel being 768 k at most which is piddly compared to true disc Atmos (like the spectacularly mentioned INXS "Kick" release. One of the most impressive collectionI heard was Lady Gaga Atmos songs. I have no doubt that Billie Eilish's versions are well done because I knew her brother was a production genius (and would win producer of the year) the first moment I heard her main breakthrough album. Steven Wilson's phenomenal mixes are obviously the main ones to hunt down and listen to... so I wish Apple would label who did the mixes right there in the forefront
I recently put together a budget 5.1.2 system in my home studio. Other than my actual stereo monitors, it's mostly cheap active studio monitors plus a very inexpensive sub. The speakers are time aligned but there is no EQ treatment. My question is, am I wasting my time with such a low quality speaker array? Are my mixes destined to translate poorly in a well tuned system?
An example of a Dolby Atmos album that I really don't like is Hybrid Theory by LINKIN PARK. The bass just doesn't have the same impact that the regular lossless mixing does, so I exclusively listen to the original lossless mix on that one. However, the recent remix of Abby Road by The Beatles sounds amazing in Dolby Atmos, much better than the original mix.
I’m thinking the concerns are all misplaced/dramatic. The artist and their team produce the Dolby Atmos content with the intent of giving us a new experience to showcase their music. Innovation leveraged by the artist is always welcomed. Non Dolby Atmos content of the artist’s songs remains available as an option. Dolby TrueHD is also being leveraged and included with many of the Dolby Atmos mixes. Go Dolby and Apple.
After playing Apple Music on my Apple TV to a Sony reciever, hell all my receivers. It’s fkking crazy insane good. It sounds like I’m front row in the best stadium. ❤
The quality of their atmos tracks is pure garbage. They totally ruin the individual levels of instruments. I turn it off immediately. I have a full home theatre setup and regulatory enjoy ATMOS films (via blu-ray TrueHD) and have tried atmos on the system. No improvement.
Dolby Atmos music was ruined by dolby the fact that you can't use ATMOS music Dolby access app is super limiting. It is only a real thing on Macs and people who own Nvidia shields which I do. I have surround DVD-audio and Flac which sound much better than any of the atoms mixes.
Here’s an idea for another video - a $4.000 stereo audio system vs a $2.000 Dolby Atmos system? In other words a higher end 2 channel system of a mid level multi channel ?
Another mqa gimmick. The first few Spatial Apple Atmos will be done correctly, and then it will wind up being craap it already is. I'm looking forward to hearing drum cymbals over my head and the rest of the drum set being spread over the remaining 9.1 channels.
Dolby Atmos has a huge flaw. Headphone support is an afterthought. The issue in the music industry, is that most mixing and mastering engineers refuse to acknowledge that they should prioritize headphone mixing and mastering, as that is how most listeners that car at least a bit about sound quality will experience songs, nowadays. But even before, there is a huge difference between near-field monitors in a treated room, and stereo speakers in a home, so they were never mixing and mastering for listeners. Mixes don't translate they way they pretend. Checking in a car o a living room style set-up, is just a matter of checking that is sounds ok, not actually making it sound its best in those scenarios. Ironically, headphones translate much better, any pair of headphones will be much closer to how the engineer experienced the sound with their headphones, than a stereo speaker set-up in a room compared to near field monitors in a studio. So there was in theory some potential here, for mixing and mastering engineers that refuses headphone mixing, to introduce a medium that would make sure that mixes for stereo near field monitors would translate to headphone listening, by introducing stereo cross-talk and making the low end mono, and adding a bit of reverb for emulating the limited amount of reflections that still occurs in most studio engineering rooms. But Atmos does not do that. Atmos is a format developed for speakers. In general it does a pretty good job translating between different amount of speakers, in a multi speaker set-up. No soundbar without discrete speakers will ever sound like true surround sound, and most buyers are aware, knowing they do get a limited experience. But there are some curiosities; The Atmos bed is considered 7.1.2, meaning 7 speakers at ear height (in the same positions as in 7.1), and two positioned like a stereo pair above the listener. Because of the positioning of sound, a 5 speaker set-up at ear height, can't emulate the sound of 7. So realistically for surround sound, Dolby should not have recognized any 5.1.x set-up as dolby. The next issue is the speakers above the head. The speaker placement in x.x.2 and x.x.4 differs a lot. in x.x.4 the speakers above the listener should no longer be in a stereo position above the listener, but two in front and two behind the listener position. If sound is placed in the 7.1.2 bed set-up, it will not translate very well to a x.x.4 set-up as any sound that was directly above the listener will not sound as coming from that position. Ironically, a downmix from x.x.4 should translate better to x.x.2, not well, but better, as all sounds intended to come from above will at least do that, although the positioning effect will be lost. Because of the incompatibility issues, I would really recommend x.x.6, to make sure the sound will be positioned correctly no matter if it was made for x.x.2, x.x.4 or x.x.6. Dolby should have settled in positioning two speakers directly above the head in all configurations, to avoid this. Back to headphones though, it gets even messier. Apple have their own method for decoding Dolby Atmos for headphones, and are not using the official standard. Meaning that there is no de facto standard for headphone playback. The same mix will therefor sound different with the same headphones, switching between the Apple decoding and the Dolby decoding. But neither Apples nor Dolbys decoding actually solves the main issue of making studio engineering mixes work with headphones. As in both cases it uses Dolby atmos, where headphone playback is just an afterthought. (currently as far as I know, no dolby atmos enabled receiver or decoder supports Dolby Atmos for headphones. Some android phones does, X box One and series X and S does with a paid plugin (and you can send that signal over HDMI to get atmos for headphones with headphones connected to the receiver/decoder). Some android phones does support Atmos for headphones. Apple TV supports Apples version of it for apple headphones, but only one pair, despite having the ability connect two pairs in non Dolby Atmos mode. And Apple phones and tablets and recent computers support their version , and I guess for any pair of headphones, at least wired). So what we really needed was a new format. One that was developed with headphones very much in mind. Dolby atmos isn't the solution for the actual issue we have, of mixes not translating well to headphones. Atmos and DTS:X are better solutions for surround sound with speakers compared to previous formats. But they aren't developed to be used mainly with headphones.
I think he missed a key point about the renderer, Apple specifically avoided the issue of mixing for a target setup, which is what other streaming platforms are doing by using the atmos headphone mix. Apple takes the 3D mapping and adapts it on the fly, that’s the only way you can have truly personalized Spatial Audio, and still be able to output a 7.1 or 5.1 mix via Apple TV. The whole point is not to mix for a given a setup.
I think you are WAY overestimating the consumers ability to A - know what a good Atmos mix sounds like. And B - care. 99.9% of people will either turn it on and not notice the difference between stereo & Atmos or many, many people will leave it off and carry on with their lives. This is a problem only for music snobs.
Really interesting video, Caleb, keep doing these. I don't have Atmos (I think my old ears have peaked at 6.1; though I am playing with spatial audio on AirPods Pro 2gen), but am concerned at how content producers leaning into Atmos might make my humble set up sound incorrect. Not sure if you've noticed, but that blue light over your left shoulder absolutely clips on my computers in your video. Once you've noticed the blazing blue sunrise behind Caleb, you can't un-see it. Not sure if it's like this in other videos. Otherwise the studio is very nice, well lit.
As a hearing aid user who streams audio directly to them via Bluetooth I’m certainly curious if I’ll be able to experience Atmos music!! I enjoy Atmos immensely with my home theater so yeah I’m pro Atmos!
I really enjoy your reviews but this video seems like a stretch to create a issue where there isn’t one. There is always going to be a learning curve when new playback formats come out. You are going to get some releases that are just going to release stuff without regard to quality. Remember when CDs were first released there was a mad rush to release them and some of the, sounded terrible. To suggest that Apple is going to ruin Atmos I think is very disingenuous on your part even if you just used that as a way to get people to click on the video. I also thin’ your choice of choosing someone as your expert that is currently hawking a product on TH-cam about Atmos is a poor choice. (Also taunting that he learned to mix Atmos on an another frequent TH-cam advertiser is suspect too) Instead of titleing your video ‘Is Apple accidentally ruining Atmos………’. How about ‘Is incentivizing content creation a good thing or a bad thing’
AI separation of stems is amazing and it seems obvious the future of mixing and mastering will utilize machine learning. Conflating AI music video generation with the end-result is misleading. It’s definitely confusing, but AI isn’t the problem and will most likely be a tool that will make music better.
There's nothing wrong with incentivizing atmos mixes at all. It should pay more to the production team because a proper atmos mixing setup is an enormous investment. Apple and all these services should charge more for spatial audio and let the market decide. If they're willing to pay then people want it.
When are you Surrounded by music at a Concert , in a Bar, at any venue? If you are, it used to be a bad thing, bouncing off the back wall and sounded horrible. The Band is suppose to be in front of you. Movies are a totally different thing. Just sayin' .
I find Atmos on Apple shifts the tonality to be more brittle and thinner than the atmos renders binaural . Both on airpods and 3rd party headphones ... Non supported devices also just plays the apple binaural that is also shifted in tonality .. Like Apple wants people to use logic to finalize mixs just for apple music .. Hmmmmm
Well apparently not judging by the title of your video btw Dolby makes som extremely greatest than high quality standards ones besides the basic mono or stereo options. But it is not easy for me to recreate this from scratch but you need money for to use that unfortunately to be the judge of the sounds.
until apple allow the lossless codec api to become available on third party vendors I honestly don't care because sound quality wise the HomePod is not getting the most out of your music.
actually spatial audio and dolby atmos is great on live concerts. you can feel like you are in the middle of the stage. i am not sure if works for mixes. on more than 100 tracks i think i have heard only 3-4 that made sense to be atmos and was using the full potential of atmos
do you think dolby atmos well ever come to free streaming services or even 5.1 ik 5.1 is supported on youtube but it dosent have a wide range of content really
Honestly, Atmos just being turned on in my devices and listening to regular stereo mixes give a much more pleasant experience than Atmos mixes themselves.
I subscribed to Apple Music just because of the Atmos music. Some of it is great, some has used it so poorly that I wouldn’t know it was Atmos had my receiver’s display not told me. Last year there were some really pitiful mixes that ended up being pulled. I’d much rather spend my money on discs if more of them were put out, but they’re few and far between compared to what’s on Apple.
This sounds like a LOT of work to expect of studios when streaming revenue for so many artists is already pretty lousy. Not that it's quite the same thing, but this feels similar to modern Web design for me, outside of the fact that this COULD actually be completely right as long as you render it for every possible setup, but you're essentially having to do the same thing many times to get it to sound right on "everything" it's likely to be played on. The downside to Web design, of course, is that it'll NEVER work 100% correctly, but it sounds like editing audio for so many different setups isn't going to be offset that much more revenue, so why bother?
I really hope this is used to revive some old quadrophonic and 5.1 mixes that got put out in the past, and more experimental artists making albums that were built for surround from the start. Probably won't happen, but it's what I want
That reminds me of hearing quadraphonic for the first time…friend had pretty high end set up with 8 track playing Deep Purple’s Made In Japan album. Was sure revolutionary to my teenage ears.
Most of those quadraphonic records have been made into 5.1 dvd audio mixes for years now such as night at the opera by queen. Some of those have become atmos mixes too ◡̈
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Hi everyone! Thanks for taking the time to watch this one! A lot of facets to Atmos in general, and I think anytime Apple gets involved, it’s worth paying attention to what comes from that. Thanks for being part of the conversation! And I look forward to the next few videos coming out as we prep for CES! See y’all soon!
There is a massive opportunity in classical music recorded natively in Atmos. There are a lot of enthusiasts who want to hear an orchestra sound just like it does for the conductor, and who would rebuy all manner of repertoire if it were recorded by a top shelf orchestra with state of the art sound. I'm one of them.
the problem is you can only stream dolby atoms much you can actually buy 5.1 classical mixes.
Isn’t a good conductor trying to present music in the best way to the audience, the whole audience, in an auditorium, versus Atmos which will present music that works in only a very small location in an expensively created dedicated listening space?
@@phenixnunlee372 There are Blu-Ray releases with Atmos sound. DG's recent Beethoven Piano Concerto cycle with Zimerman is an example.
@@MaBaKar How is this different than 2 channel recording (of which I own and cherish many hundreds). I am an audience of one. Why would I not want as immersive and high quality a recording as I could get for home listening?
To take advantage of the highest quality of object-based audio where different musical instruments are being presented in different parts of the listening environment. To experience this format non virtually, not only would one have to go with at least a 9 Channel speaker configuration with at least 4 height channels. And to experience a Dolby Atmos mix natively, the sound mixer would have to record groups of musical instruments separately.
Plus the difference between streaming 2-Channel quality and Dolby Atmos quality, the former is Lossless, and the latter is lossy. Hence, for quality Dolby Atmos playback, Blu-rays are the only way to go
@matthewweflen
Apple Music should give us the ability to rate the mixes. That way the users will have a scale for what people think is a good mix or not and uploaders will be incentivized to correct their mixes.
I would be against this. Most people have no idea about sound quality or mix quality. Most people like The Weeknd and Taylor Swift.
@@conorfurlong I think that most people would know what a good immersive mix is. Sound quality is a different thing and it's not the issue here. Also, I would think that most people who take the time to rate something are probably passionate about it. The casual pop user will pass on it. Anyway, I don't really believe that AM will do such a thing, so all my words are for nothing :)
@@Mr.Grimble You have much greater faith in humanity. I on the other hand have very little, especially when it comes to popular opinions on what qualifies as ‘sounding good’. Have you checked out the charts in recent years?
In addition, the quality of a mix is dependent on a multitude of factors, including on what equipment did the listener choose to listen to it? Speakers? Headphones? Ear buds? Quality of speakers or headphones or earbuds? It’s not like reviewing a song or a film. Reviewing a mix is much more complicated. What sounds great to someone on their listening set up might sound awful to someone else on theirs. And I don’t trust people to know the difference.
A user review system is a bad idea.
@@conorfurlong There are guardrails that you can put to get quality input from quality users.
But your points are valid.
@@conorfurlongTaylor Swift’s album ‘13 Midnights’ is an excellent example of Atmos music done right.
Perhaps a bad example. 😂
I noticed the volume reduced massively in songs with Dolby atmos while listening to Apple Music.
I turned it off and it is much better experience.
Yeah and for me, it’s the opposite in Spotify. Music sounds better in Spotify using Spatial Audio.
@@thecapone45i thought Spotify didn’t support it? or did you use “spatialize audio”?
@@thecapone45Spotify doesn’t have Spatial Audio though?
@@sgtpepper54321 yes. That’s what I was saying. Heck even TH-cam has it.
@@thecapone45 sorry to burst a bubble but you might be using the Spatialise Audio feature that does the same thing 3D tvs used to do by making 2D stuff into 3D. Not actual 3D content as google states Spotify doesn’t support spatial
Ha, Techno Dad, Great to see him. I've been a subscriber to his channel for years.
Ayyyyy!! Love it!
I'm an audio engineer and I've opted out of mixing music in Atmos. It's not even just that I'd have to invest at least $20 grand on a speaker array.. the fact that Apple Music doesn't even use the Dolby decoder is total insanity. I have no interest in switching to Logic... how do I know how the Apple decoder is going to interpret my mix if I'm mixing the track using the Dolby encoder? Most "spacial audio" tracks on AM sound like they're being played through PA speakers in an empty club and SERIOUSLY lack the energy of the stereo mix. When normal people on the AM reddit are asking why their music sounds bad when playing from their iPhone, but sounds fine when playing from their Mac and it's because spacial audio is on by default on the iPhone, I think it safe to say there's a very big problem. On top of that, artists themselves seem generally pretty apathetic about Atmos and spacial audio. The whole thing is a mess.
I’ve been mixing in Atmos for almost a year . The speaker mix is the best experience,however, the vast majority of music fans will probably never hear a properly calibrated speaker system, if any at all . I have heard many disastrous Atmos mixes ,binaurally and speaker wise . Who, at these labels are checking these mixes , at all ?
Yeah. I’ve turned it off because I’m tired of the vocals sounding like they’re down the street from the band. “POV” by Ariana Grande is the perfect example of how Apple’s Dolby Atmos ruins songs. It literally sounds like her microphone malfunctioned during a concert.
Try listening to better mixed Atmos. It is fantastic.
Asian girls got the best atmos 🤭✌️
Highly recommend the Spatial Audio toolkit for anyone dialing in their home theater setup. Great collaboration guys!
They are pushing Atmos music but their own music app doesn't even support Atmos on all but apple TV boxes I believe.
The apple TV app on the other hand seems to widely support Atmos.
So for example you can have both the apple music and the apple TV app on your TV but the music app won't support Atmos while the apple TV app will, why? This makes zero sense.
Surely if your pushing a service you want to have it as easily accessible as possible, but hey what do I know I'm just your target demographic 🤣
Talking about actual atmos multi channel here, as opposed to Atmos on headphones.
There’s good and bad mixes in Mono, Stereo and now there will be in Atmos too.
True, but mixing in Atmos is much harder than any of those. (Well, except mono.)
Tech Dad is correct, A lot of music does sound horrible when using Apple's Spatial or Dolby sound enhancements. it works for movie type environment, for music, not so much. be it on headphones (Nura over the ear I have) or the surround in the car, it just doesn't work for all types of music. i keep it off now. it ruins many classic rock, R&B or disco tracks.
What a great video this was. I feel like Caleb has more creative space now? Idk, but between this video and the you asked series, what a joy it is to watch this channel! (Keep the fun little bits :D!!)
If AI puts one human being, we will bring John Conner back from the future and destroy the insidious AI!
Techno Dad!!! This part was great!😀 I would absolutely love to have a choice of which type of Atmos file to listen to!
I don’t care what anyone says, listening to Spatial Audio on AirPods is not the same as listening on a real multi-speaker Dolby Atmos system. It’s a completely different, drastically inferior listening experience, and Apple is pulling a con on everybody by trying to conflate the two
How is it con to slightly elevate the music experience free of cost for many users. Everyone knows multi speaker setup is better than even good headphones.
@@frankreynolds9930 listening to Dolby Atmos mixes in a purpose built Atmos studio can be a revelatory experience. In my opinion as a music professional, listening to Spatial Audio on earbuds captures none of that magic and often is an inferior listening experience even to stereo. Most listeners have never sat and listened in a real Atmos studio so they have no point of comparison. They see the Dolby Atmos logo on Apple Music songs and assume it’s the same thing. It’s not. That’s the con
Apple isn’t offering Spatial Audio out of the goodness of their hearts. They’re doing it to sell more iPhones, AirPods, and eventually, vision headsets. Also to get a leg up over Spotify which doesn’t yet offer Spatial Audio
To me a good (not excellent ) atmos mix is way better than 2 channels on AirPods.
I agree it is better to hear it fully on a speaker system but for anything else, AirPods do wonders
@@MiguelAngelLopezP agree to disagree. For me, spatial mixes on AirPods sound like a hollow, quieter, mushier version of the stereo mix
@@studiodsr some do suck, but at least for the past 6 months I have not found a bad one (I listen to new music frequently)
Techno Dad!
I switched Atmos OFF because i just don’t care enough about that game of “is this atmos mix going to suck?” The answer is almost always yes, so no atmos for me.
I would love a breakdown between mixing songs for Sony's 360 Reality Audio and Dolby Atmos. I have heard some Sony mixes and they are hit or miss. When they are good they are fantastic. I just wish there were easier and more ways to get spacial audio in a home theater setup since the focus has been headphones.
Sony 360 audio for gaming works so well because games are created in lpcm and so all the data is already there. With music, most music is recorded in stereo and that's why it's super complicated to convert that into good Atmos. For Atmos music to be easier, studios need to be recording in Atmos and Stereo, have 13 speakers in the studio, 11 for Atmos, 2 for stereo
You can have Spatial Audio in a home theatre if you own an Apple TV or a Mac with hdmi
Techo Dad is very cool 😎 and very professional!!
Thank you!
Oof…I just hope with these incentives in place that there aren’t any deadlines with it. That’s where corners are cut, like with movies that have a release date even before a script is written. Just take the necessary time to make it the best it can be, and I’m good with incentives.
Billie Eilish was my first experience with Spatial Audio on Apple and I was floored!! Otherwise, it’s a “mixed” bag (sorry couldn’t resist😂)! There is definitely a difference between Spatial and merely spacious, or worse. Also I don’t find listening to Spatial on my new AirPods Pro nearly as mind boggling as on my speakers on both my systems (when done right) and don’t think much of the head-turning thing. So glad you brought this up!! I have always considered myself an audio purist, but when done well Spatial is amazing!!
Upvoted for the pun!
@@1dareu2mov3haha!! Thanks!
Pun approved! And I agree, still a bit of a chasm between spatial on headphones he’s a discreet speaker system.
@@Caleb_Denison 🥰
Billie Eilish's albums really do seem like the gold standard. Random Access Memories is another standout.
I have an Atmos track for a song I like and it makes it sound like ass playing from an Apple TV to a 7.4.2 home theater. The TH-cam version sounds so much better which is crazy due to the compression
Some Atmos music sounds great like the Beatles remixes. Some of it sounds awful. Up the Bracket by the Libertines is almost unlistenable in Dolby Atmos. Another terrible Atmos mix is Won't Back Down by Tom Petty. They completely buried the guitar solo
Good. Hopefully it kills the format entirely. If atmos became the standard it would make independent home studio produced music a total monetary impossibility, just like it was prior to modern digital recording becoming accessible to regular consumers.
One example of a bad Atmos mix is Surfacing from Sarah Mchlachlan on Apple Music. I am shocked there’s no QA on it.
We can’t even get well mixed, dynamic stereo music mixes lol. Atmos is cool but such a niche. 90% of people consuming these mixes are probably using airpods or a soundbar.
As an audio mix engineer, enthusiast on atmos in general and its benefits over traditional formats, this is a very complicated matter that can’t be fully explained in a TH-cam video, never mind comment. It’s way more complicated than what you have (very well) laid out, and at the moment we are in a transition that apple is “promoting” so the format doesn’t die right away as many others have in the past. There are too many variables in place, and you’ve placed many but there are more.
What it comes down to in the end is a conflict of interests in all parts involved and none willing to take the risk, and the education to the general public on why atmos is superior to the traditional formats and why it matters. Which you are dealing with, but at the end of the day, the general public is still listening to low quality mp3s as the holy grail. It’s a hard battle
Caleb, I am a fan. Especially since I too live in the Portland area. I have been listening to surround mixes since SACD DSD and DVD Audio with Advanced Resolution, then BluRay Audio, and now of course Dolby Atmos. I was very excited for Apple’s roll out and was extremely disappointed at first. I knew that there was a push to get people to remix huge albums in Atmos and it was a rush job. There were a few gems like Kraftwerk who had already put out their album in a 5.1 mix. But then I started hearing some better mixes, and finally Tears for Fear’s album The Tipping Point was a masterpiece in Atmos. That was mixed by Steven Wilson who also had been working in the 5.1 surround format for years. I loath that most people’s experience with Atmos music will be in headphones. I have AirPods Pro and it does very little especially compared to my 7.1.2 home theater. The mixes are getting better as producers are learning the new format, and we have had some amazing 2 channel mixes and absolutely terrible 2 channel mixes since the beginning of stereophonic music. We will come to recognize and praise brilliance in Atmos mixing and I hope we get Grammy Awards for best Atmos mix so there’s recognition and benchmarks to try and rise to for budding mixers out there.
One last thing, your last three seconds of the video got me to hit the LIKE button! Cracked me up!
Understanding "SPATIAL AUDIO", starts with understanding that not all multichannel mixes are equal. Most Dolby mixes on Apple, unless mixed from scratch, are basically a DSP, something Yamaha receivers have done for years. You get L+R+ a mix of both in the center with vocals pushed up + Reverb in the rear with the bass usually lacking. Unremarkable and gimmicky at best, and occasionally so bad that they are pulled: Seal, Florence mysteriously vanished from Apple Music shortly after release. Those who go in the Studio with the intention of doing mixes (or remixes) with proper spatial placement standout by a mile: Brian Eno, Peter Gabriel, Souldive and of course Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon sound incredible. But great mixes are few, and even if you find them, Apple Music is limited to 48Mhz, which will never reach the resolution of a multi-channel Blu Ray or SACD. It's a great marketing tool for Apple, but way too "niche" for labels and artists to bother to invest in it, and when they do, they usually want to push physical media.
Great video. I’ve been an avid surround mix collector for over a decade and was thrilled to hear about Spacial audio coming to streaming. I agree some of the tracks particularly in the early days were awful. It seems like now things are fine to exceptional. I wish the experience was more accessible to home listeners without having to make a large investment.
I listen to the Made for Spatial playlist on Apple Music and find myself skipping over certain tracks I don’t find satisfying. Maybe they are fine, but I am not wowed.
@LeezahB it takes a bit of hunting to find the few good atmos tracks on Apple.
Dolby Atmos shouldn't be used for music unless that music is specifically created for it, it adds nothing to the creation when another random person is tasked with rearranging it. It's a remix in all but title unless the original artist is involved directly. Keep Atmos for movies, that's where we need spatial audio. There will always be a massive divide between Atmos in headphones and on a proper multi-speaker system and you know Apple is going to prioritize its own headphones. I hope we don't kill this awesome movie tech to make some money from idiots while the audiophiles laugh from the sidelines watching as stereo is once again in the ring against a competitor. We know how all the previous bouts went.
I have DA turned off in AM. Poor DA mixes far outnumber the good.
Oooooooooooooo can KTC PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make us a 40ish-65ish" monitor!?!?!?! 😮
You play the trumpet!? I play the trumpet!! Trumpet buddies woohoo!!! 😂😂😂
They make a 42-inch OLED monitor as well. One of our computing reviewers just bought one and wrote about it!
Actually some AI cover tracks are really good. There’s Austrian painter that die in 1945 AI cover of “Billy Jean” and it really does sound like him singing Billie Jean!
Maybe WW2 might’ve not happened if he know he could sing…
Also Freddie AI cover of “my heart will go on” sound every bit like what you would’ve imagine him to sound like if he got the chance to sing it… a lot of people did weep.
I appreciate that you deferred to someone with more knowledge about atmos music. I am not sure that Channa is the best person to defer to however. Much like doctors on the news, the people most available to "interview" are often (not always) doing work of the least consequence.
SACT and JNT's MBTT are hugely important to the extent that they optimize people's setups. This is a lot like taking my first drumset and giving the sticks to a pro--he will do wayyyy more with it quality wise. I think channa raised some red flags before he fullly understood (mouth started before ears were finished) and stirred up a lot of nothing in regards to the mixes of atmos movies.
Compared to me, channa is definitely way more knowledgable and capable. Compared to people who do this professionally, channa is me. It would have been far more advantageous to just grab a David Frangioni for something like this. He is exactly who you are looking for in this instance.
They could at the very least FIX Dolby Atmos, by allowing support on AppleTV 4K of TrueHD Atmos
They used “the ring podcast”music to open this video lol the ringer will be pissed
The timing of this video is so funny Caleb.. I just yesterday cancelled my Apple Music subscription.. I was naive that my HT A9 was receiving atmos via apple music app on lg c1 oled.. But the added cost of apple tv is no go for my setup.. Switching to amazon music for now as at least it supports sony 360 RA so i can use my a9 to full potential
Music should be presented the way it was mastered. Artificially adding more channels is an awful idea.
All the music in Atmos needs to be manually remixed…
Not really, it sounds amazing.
Dolby Atmos for music is not a filter you add on top of it. They must be manually remixed and have audio elements moved around the space. You clearly have never experienced it yourself yet.
Welcome to 2024 where you don’t need 753,627,845 speakers on the ceiling to experience a 3D sound space.
This is not like duophonic like they did with Stereo back in the 60s where they took Mono and filtered out different frequency ranges and then panned them left and right; you have to manually remix the song to work in this multidimensional aspect, so they are still mastering it the way they want to, it’s just more effort
It has to be remixed or remastered in atmos, “Spatial Audio” is Apple’s version that’s optional and has head tracking to keep the sound coming from your device so it’s like you’re in a true surround speaker environment
Let's be honest, there are some crap spatial audio mixes on Apple Music. I just upgraded my home theater system with all Kef Meta speakers in a 5.1.2 setup. I had high expectations. The variability in quality is significant. One Alanis Morissette song sounded like she was singing from behind me. WTF
If you have home theater (at least 5.1) and an apple tv = dolby atmos sounds amazing!
Short answer to the title, yes! A rush to make surround sound just something you do would be akin to the travesty that is autotune.
What does that even mean
This will go the exact same way that modern mastering goes.
Record companies tell mastering engineers how to master a track and the engineer has to comply, even if that means making a horribly over-compressed track solely aimed to pop out on TikTok and Instagram.
Record companies we tell atmos engineers what they want and those engineers will do it, even if it means horrible mixes. Because record companies want fast, easy cash. Knowing how record companies behave, I guarantee you that the vast majority of atmos mixes - other than prestige releases such as Dark Side of the Moon - will be unlistenable.
Thank for sharing here. I know I have heard some atmos tracks on Apple Music, that really didn't impress me at all. I will note, Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and INXS's Kick were both awesome atmos mixes, that I actually listened to on the blu-ray discs.
There is a lot more that sounds great, but you have to dig for it, unfortunately.
Try finding Billy Joel’s Pianoman in Atmos. They did a top notch job on that one for sure!
I agree with your concerns. I’m a huge of Atmos and I’m really hoping they don’t ruin it. I think they need a better to certify Atmos to ensure a quality product is being delivered.
Anyone have a well curated list of good spatial audio albums?
Yes please!
Anyone who starts by saying Dark Side Of THe Moon sounds awesome in ATMOS is just wrong. I have it add I have the full multichannel ATMOS system to play it on and it just shows the limitations of the studio tech at the time. INXS sounds strange also. The best Bluray Atmos disk that shows off all the advantages of todays tech and the ATMOS tech is Hans Zimmers 'live in Prague' disk. nothing beats it. If anyone knows a better recording PLEASE tell me ;-)
Atmos is Surround which basically is 5 or 7 speakers so difference in listening experience will only be noticeable while listening in the same setup but not headphones or stereo sound system.
I think this will only potentially be bad for smaller indie artists due to the incentives. Big named artists will not let their art be rushed and ruined for some cash. For example, Beyoncé’s renaissance was only available in stereo for almost a year. Now it’s available in atmos and it’s significantly better.
IT SOUNDS SHIT. I was listening to the new Nick Cave and whenever I turned my head the poor guy sounded like he was weaving and bobbing around the soundstage. It didn't add to the music. It was distracting and awful. I just tried to show a younger person Camarillo Brillo by Zappa. It was a lifelesss turd. I turned off the Atmos setting on my Mac (listening through three way Genelec on an HD system in a recording studio) and it still sucked. I pulled out the CD and we were grooving our asses off.
Outstanding video and I learned a lot of information. Thank you!
Fwiw I like this longer format. Disagree on the “too long” comment,
Me too!!!!!!
The playback device should be able to tell what it will be playing over before the audio starts and then playback the “version” that’s suited for the device.
I love Apple Music but most of the Atmos tracks/albums I’ve listened to, the music sound washed out and quieter. So I’ve switched to stereo for now. Hopefully things change.
I agree with every point you have raised in your video. Dolby Atmos music, when implemented well, is such a great listening experience. In general, I prefer an experiencing a well created Dolby Atmos music track over listening to that same track that is as well mixed in stereo only.
The only caveat is that the Dolby Atmos mix must be implemented with care and attention to detail.
The only point I would like to add to the discussion is that it is in Apple’s corporate DNA to provide its customers with a premium product/service where every detail has been carefully considered and refined so as to meet, and even exceed, the expectations of their customers. Apple wants to delight their users with an experience that is (for the most part) uniquely available to Apple customers.
Given Apple’s long history of designing and building market leading products and services, I remain (mostly) confident that Apple is keenly aware of how great a well mixed Dolby Atmos track can sound versus how a poorly mixed Dolby Atmos track sounds. As such, it would be of no surprise to me that Apple will have worked hard behind the music scene with all relevant parties to ensure that Dolby Atmos music tracks will be mixed with great care to meet the high expectations Apple has for itself and its customers.
Well, I disagree! There are a lot of good songs out there on Apple Music that sound amazing! AirPods 2nd Gen 🙋🏼♂️. I can’t hear to ATMOS on HomePods Mini because I guess it needs more volume. Producers should work on ATMOS if the want a masterpiece if it’s just for the tag then it’s Apple’s fault but production
Another boring Atmos sucks guy. Stop the crap OK ! Engineers are just learning how to mix music with Atmos. It's a learning curve. I did not spend a fortunate for my 7.4.4 set up . I am using Dirac Live and Techno dad's Calibration to tune my room. It sounds so good, my wife likes it. I try listening to stereo from time to time but I find it boring, lacks dimension and depth. Basically, stereo is boring. The future for sound is bright. BTW: Apple makes Logic Pro which allows you to mix in Atmos. Great piece of a software to move engineers into the 22nd Century.
Dude said the quiet part out loud: Dolby doesn't work. Dolby has the stems and literally mixes the song. The translation to stereo, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1.4 fails. Maybe also be an end-user calibration problem. Just too complex to do well.
About a month ago I borrowed a Apple TV 4K and listen to the Apple music Atmos tracks on my incredibly high quality 5.1 system. To say the least I was pretty underwhelmed with 90% of what I heard. One of the big problems is of course it's lossy with each channel being 768 k at most which is piddly compared to true disc Atmos (like the spectacularly mentioned INXS "Kick" release. One of the most impressive collectionI heard was Lady Gaga Atmos songs. I have no doubt that Billie Eilish's versions are well done because I knew her brother was a production genius (and would win producer of the year) the first moment I heard her main breakthrough album.
Steven Wilson's phenomenal mixes are obviously the main ones to hunt down and listen to... so I wish Apple would label who did the mixes right there in the forefront
Very informative… thanks , I had no idea what I SHOULD be hearing is what is actually being flogged as Atmos …
I’m informed
I recently put together a budget 5.1.2 system in my home studio. Other than my actual stereo monitors, it's mostly cheap active studio monitors plus a very inexpensive sub. The speakers are time aligned but there is no EQ treatment.
My question is, am I wasting my time with such a low quality speaker array? Are my mixes destined to translate poorly in a well tuned system?
An example of a Dolby Atmos album that I really don't like is Hybrid Theory by LINKIN PARK. The bass just doesn't have the same impact that the regular lossless mixing does, so I exclusively listen to the original lossless mix on that one. However, the recent remix of Abby Road by The Beatles sounds amazing in Dolby Atmos, much better than the original mix.
It's not Apple. The sound of ANY ATMOS mix depends on the MIX. That has nothing to do with Apple.
I’m thinking the concerns are all misplaced/dramatic. The artist and their team produce the Dolby Atmos content with the intent of giving us a new experience to showcase their music. Innovation leveraged by the artist is always welcomed. Non Dolby Atmos content of the artist’s songs remains available as an option. Dolby TrueHD is also being leveraged and included with many of the Dolby Atmos mixes. Go Dolby and Apple.
After playing Apple Music on my Apple TV to a Sony reciever, hell all my receivers. It’s fkking crazy insane good. It sounds like I’m front row in the best stadium. ❤
The quality of their atmos tracks is pure garbage. They totally ruin the individual levels of instruments. I turn it off immediately. I have a full home theatre setup and regulatory enjoy ATMOS films (via blu-ray TrueHD) and have tried atmos on the system. No improvement.
Dolby Atmos music was ruined by dolby the fact that you can't use ATMOS music Dolby access app is super limiting. It is only a real thing on Macs and people who own Nvidia shields which I do. I have surround DVD-audio and Flac which sound much better than any of the atoms mixes.
Here’s an idea for another video - a $4.000 stereo audio system vs a $2.000 Dolby Atmos system?
In other words a higher end 2 channel system of a mid level multi channel ?
Good idea
Atmos Discrete. If it ain't real multi channel mix then it's fake BS.
It's ya boi Technodad in the house. Awesome Dom Dolla Atmos remix IYKYK 👌😎
Another mqa gimmick. The first few Spatial Apple Atmos will be done correctly, and then it will wind up being craap it already is. I'm looking forward to hearing drum cymbals over my head and the rest of the drum set being spread over the remaining 9.1 channels.
Dolby Atmos has a huge flaw. Headphone support is an afterthought. The issue in the music industry, is that most mixing and mastering engineers refuse to acknowledge that they should prioritize headphone mixing and mastering, as that is how most listeners that car at least a bit about sound quality will experience songs, nowadays. But even before, there is a huge difference between near-field monitors in a treated room, and stereo speakers in a home, so they were never mixing and mastering for listeners. Mixes don't translate they way they pretend. Checking in a car o a living room style set-up, is just a matter of checking that is sounds ok, not actually making it sound its best in those scenarios. Ironically, headphones translate much better, any pair of headphones will be much closer to how the engineer experienced the sound with their headphones, than a stereo speaker set-up in a room compared to near field monitors in a studio.
So there was in theory some potential here, for mixing and mastering engineers that refuses headphone mixing, to introduce a medium that would make sure that mixes for stereo near field monitors would translate to headphone listening, by introducing stereo cross-talk and making the low end mono, and adding a bit of reverb for emulating the limited amount of reflections that still occurs in most studio engineering rooms.
But Atmos does not do that.
Atmos is a format developed for speakers.
In general it does a pretty good job translating between different amount of speakers, in a multi speaker set-up. No soundbar without discrete speakers will ever sound like true surround sound, and most buyers are aware, knowing they do get a limited experience.
But there are some curiosities;
The Atmos bed is considered 7.1.2, meaning 7 speakers at ear height (in the same positions as in 7.1), and two positioned like a stereo pair above the listener. Because of the positioning of sound, a 5 speaker set-up at ear height, can't emulate the sound of 7. So realistically for surround sound, Dolby should not have recognized any 5.1.x set-up as dolby.
The next issue is the speakers above the head. The speaker placement in x.x.2 and x.x.4 differs a lot. in x.x.4 the speakers above the listener should no longer be in a stereo position above the listener, but two in front and two behind the listener position. If sound is placed in the 7.1.2 bed set-up, it will not translate very well to a x.x.4 set-up as any sound that was directly above the listener will not sound as coming from that position. Ironically, a downmix from x.x.4 should translate better to x.x.2, not well, but better, as all sounds intended to come from above will at least do that, although the positioning effect will be lost. Because of the incompatibility issues, I would really recommend x.x.6, to make sure the sound will be positioned correctly no matter if it was made for x.x.2, x.x.4 or x.x.6. Dolby should have settled in positioning two speakers directly above the head in all configurations, to avoid this.
Back to headphones though, it gets even messier.
Apple have their own method for decoding Dolby Atmos for headphones, and are not using the official standard. Meaning that there is no de facto standard for headphone playback. The same mix will therefor sound different with the same headphones, switching between the Apple decoding and the Dolby decoding.
But neither Apples nor Dolbys decoding actually solves the main issue of making studio engineering mixes work with headphones. As in both cases it uses Dolby atmos, where headphone playback is just an afterthought. (currently as far as I know, no dolby atmos enabled receiver or decoder supports Dolby Atmos for headphones. Some android phones does, X box One and series X and S does with a paid plugin (and you can send that signal over HDMI to get atmos for headphones with headphones connected to the receiver/decoder). Some android phones does support Atmos for headphones. Apple TV supports Apples version of it for apple headphones, but only one pair, despite having the ability connect two pairs in non Dolby Atmos mode. And Apple phones and tablets and recent computers support their version , and I guess for any pair of headphones, at least wired).
So what we really needed was a new format. One that was developed with headphones very much in mind.
Dolby atmos isn't the solution for the actual issue we have, of mixes not translating well to headphones.
Atmos and DTS:X are better solutions for surround sound with speakers compared to previous formats. But they aren't developed to be used mainly with headphones.
The title is misleading. It should read "INTENTIONALLY", apple does nothing without reason and something up their sleeve
I think he missed a key point about the renderer, Apple specifically avoided the issue of mixing for a target setup, which is what other streaming platforms are doing by using the atmos headphone mix. Apple takes the 3D mapping and adapts it on the fly, that’s the only way you can have truly personalized Spatial Audio, and still be able to output a 7.1 or 5.1 mix via Apple TV. The whole point is not to mix for a given a setup.
That’s what Dolby Atmos is about… Rendering for a particular setup is handled by the audio processor.
Bad year for Apple: messing up atmos music, watch patent issues, still can’t make a 5G chip, no new products ($3500 AR doesn’t count).
I think you are WAY overestimating the consumers ability to A - know what a good Atmos mix sounds like. And B - care. 99.9% of people will either turn it on and not notice the difference between stereo & Atmos or many, many people will leave it off and carry on with their lives. This is a problem only for music snobs.
Really interesting video, Caleb, keep doing these. I don't have Atmos (I think my old ears have peaked at 6.1; though I am playing with spatial audio on AirPods Pro 2gen), but am concerned at how content producers leaning into Atmos might make my humble set up sound incorrect.
Not sure if you've noticed, but that blue light over your left shoulder absolutely clips on my computers in your video. Once you've noticed the blazing blue sunrise behind Caleb, you can't un-see it. Not sure if it's like this in other videos. Otherwise the studio is very nice, well lit.
As a hearing aid user who streams audio directly to them via Bluetooth I’m certainly curious if I’ll be able to experience Atmos music!!
I enjoy Atmos immensely with my home theater so yeah I’m pro Atmos!
I really enjoy your reviews but this video seems like a stretch to create a issue where there isn’t one. There is always going to be a learning curve when new playback formats come out. You are going to get some releases that are just going to release stuff without regard to quality. Remember when CDs were first released there was a mad rush to release them and some of the, sounded terrible. To suggest that Apple is going to ruin Atmos I think is very disingenuous on your part even if you just used that as a way to get people to click on the video. I also thin’ your choice of choosing someone as your expert that is currently hawking a product on TH-cam about Atmos is a poor choice. (Also taunting that he learned to mix Atmos on an another frequent TH-cam advertiser is suspect too) Instead of titleing your video ‘Is Apple accidentally ruining Atmos………’. How about ‘Is incentivizing content creation a good thing or a bad thing’
AI separation of stems is amazing and it seems obvious the future of mixing and mastering will utilize machine learning. Conflating AI music video generation with the end-result is misleading. It’s definitely confusing, but AI isn’t the problem and will most likely be a tool that will make music better.
There's nothing wrong with incentivizing atmos mixes at all. It should pay more to the production team because a proper atmos mixing setup is an enormous investment. Apple and all these services should charge more for spatial audio and let the market decide. If they're willing to pay then people want it.
Q: Is Apple Accidentally Ruining Dolby Atmos Music? A: No. Didn't have to watch this. And did not.
I am going to take my music off streaming platforms. It’s making my music sound really weird and causing issues with quality. I hate it.
When are you Surrounded by music at a Concert , in a Bar, at any venue? If you are, it used to be a bad thing, bouncing off the back wall and sounded horrible. The Band is suppose to be in front of you. Movies are a totally different thing. Just sayin' .
I find Atmos on Apple shifts the tonality to be more brittle and thinner than the atmos renders binaural . Both on airpods and 3rd party headphones ... Non supported devices also just plays the apple binaural that is also shifted in tonality .. Like Apple wants people to use logic to finalize mixs just for apple music .. Hmmmmm
I like atoms I just want to be able to make atoms mixes on logic for ipad even if it’s exclusively only make on m2 and above iPads
and nobody's gonna send dry perfect stems. that's just not how it works. goodbye apple music :) it was nice knowing ya
They ruining Dolby vision, on Apple TV my shit crashes all the time, never happens with my LG oled when using its in tv apps.
Many windows users dont know how much of a banger is Dolby Access app in windows store is... for airpods pros!! totally worth it
I disabled atmos on apple music, everything sounds considerably worse. Tidal does it better.
If i was making stuff up about Dolby Atmos I would have said exactly what Chana said 😅 lol
Well apparently not judging by the title of your video btw Dolby makes som extremely greatest than high quality standards ones besides the basic mono or stereo options. But it is not easy for me to recreate this from scratch but you need money for to use that unfortunately to be the judge of the sounds.
until apple allow the lossless codec api to become available on third party vendors I honestly don't care because sound quality wise the HomePod is not getting the most out of your music.
actually spatial audio and dolby atmos is great on live concerts. you can feel like you are in the middle of the stage. i am not sure if works for mixes. on more than 100 tracks i think i have heard only 3-4 that made sense to be atmos and was using the full potential of atmos
It sounds glorious on my jbl 1300x with the 12 inch subwoofer
do you think dolby atmos well ever come to free streaming services or even 5.1 ik 5.1 is supported on youtube but it dosent have a wide range of content really
Honestly, Atmos just being turned on in my devices and listening to regular stereo mixes give a much more pleasant experience than Atmos mixes themselves.
I subscribed to Apple Music just because of the Atmos music. Some of it is great, some has used it so poorly that I wouldn’t know it was Atmos had my receiver’s display not told me. Last year there were some really pitiful mixes that ended up being pulled.
I’d much rather spend my money on discs if more of them were put out, but they’re few and far between compared to what’s on Apple.
This sounds like a LOT of work to expect of studios when streaming revenue for so many artists is already pretty lousy. Not that it's quite the same thing, but this feels similar to modern Web design for me, outside of the fact that this COULD actually be completely right as long as you render it for every possible setup, but you're essentially having to do the same thing many times to get it to sound right on "everything" it's likely to be played on. The downside to Web design, of course, is that it'll NEVER work 100% correctly, but it sounds like editing audio for so many different setups isn't going to be offset that much more revenue, so why bother?
Thinking that AI cannot help with this, is short sighted, and high-key shows your lack of understanding of AI as it stands today
I really hope this is used to revive some old quadrophonic and 5.1 mixes that got put out in the past, and more experimental artists making albums that were built for surround from the start. Probably won't happen, but it's what I want
That reminds me of hearing quadraphonic for the first time…friend had pretty high end set up with 8 track playing Deep Purple’s Made In Japan album. Was sure revolutionary to my teenage ears.
Most of those quadraphonic records have been made into 5.1 dvd audio mixes for years now such as night at the opera by queen. Some of those have become atmos mixes too ◡̈