4:44 I worked this out once and the extra speed required to generate enough traction to overcome drag is quite significant. In fact, the L/D of the overall aero package is a factor. Too inefficient an aero package and the extra speed required exceeds the Vmax of the car. I don't have up to date numbers but Canada / Spa aero packages used to be the sweet spot for the slowest viable upside down speed.
3:35 I think if we break down the question, it should be like this 1) Where do downforce makes the most difference: Low and Medium speed corners, because naturally those corners take more time. This is probably one of the key reasons to why in 2019 Mercedes was so dominant in these corners and why they were quite slow on straights. Their philosophy of the 2019 car design is "downforce at all costs". 2) Where do downforce make up the most of the grip: High speed corners, because when you need crazy amount of grip for corners like Silverstone Copse, only crazy amount of downforce can offer you that.
@Andrew Exactly. I've been arguing this point with "arm chair" experts for years. They misunderstand downforce. While it's needed for high speed, relative to time - an f1 car loses most in slow speed corners. Hence the reason places like monaco/singapore and hungary demand max downforce. As with everything, it's a trade off. Mercedes design their cars for all tracks and conditions, unlike redbull that specifies high downforce tracks. They weren't slow in a straight line, ferrari was just incredibly.. unexpectedly fast. For reasons we won't get into. Another great side-effect of downforce is tire wear reduction due to less sliding. Managing today's capricious pirelli is key. This team is awesome. Bare in mind, Mike Elliot designed the 2012/2013 lotus, which were renown for their amazing tire wear properties. He's an elite aerodynamicist.
Mercedes is the team to ask and explain these questions with maturity and professionalism Redbull is the team to say "hold my beer" and actually try it ......... not saying it has to be done but redbull, it better.
Thanks for doing these sessions. One thought about how we can experience some of these forces... If you've ever driven closely behind a semi (lorry in England) at highway speeds, you'll have noticed how you get sucked toward it and have to let off the throttle a bit.
Nice chat. Who would have thought an aerodynamicist could be so much fun? Something that's bothered me regarding DAS: If this is a game of millimeters, wouldn't any variation in the outward angle of the front wheels, change the airflow coming off those tires and disrupt the chain of vortices that the aero folks have so meticulously set up? Does anyone out there have any guesses?
@Pat Baskshis I'd say no. The models have to compensate not only rotational turbulence coming off the tires but directional steering lock. F1 cars have to turn sometime. This was primarily mclaren's problem in 2018. The slight change in chamber might slightly reduce drag, increasing top speed. But that effect would be negligible.
@@Bahamuttiamat If I understand it right, the toe opens up to attack curves and slots back to normal on straights. Too bad we won't have a full season to tinker with it. You have a point---nothing's static about a race. Wonder if they can angle the air flow in their wind tunnel to replicate certain curves on certain tracks. Or is that a matter for CFD?
At about 80 - 100 km/hour the role of aerodynamics becomes significant enough to produce both serious drag and downforce, and at 160+ the F1 car, in theory, can drive upside down. That's a very crude explanation ....
@@Nikowalker007 They didn't ban it. It only took part in 1 race where easily won, the other teams protested it saying that it threw rocks from behind, the FIA allowed them to use it for the rest of the season, but Brabham decided not to use it. It was banned for the year after though
@@jorge8596Yes, I guess there was a loophole in the FIA rule book and Brabham decided to go for it and claim it as a cooling fan for its v12 engine :) . Gordon Murray later wrote that the car was actually heavier and more powerful by 10 % than its competition, so there was a lot more stress on transmission, suspension and brakes, fuel consumption was also much higher, so on fast and medium tracks it didn't really have significant advantage because it needed to carry more fuel or spend more time in pits, but it would definitely shine and was total track animal in Monaco or any slow track, I guess it was not worth potential hassle with lawyers, sponsors, fans, etc in the future so Brabham decided to withdraw the Fan car. Actually, this reminds me a lot about the story, (scandal?) , with Ferrari fuel consumption last year, and how it managed to squeeze more power using a loophole in a fuel delivery system regulations (in Monza, even with DRS, Lewis could barely keep up with Charles). Then, at the end of the season every team protested and FIA said, although not illegal, Ferrari can't use this system anymore )
Yes, an Indy car can drive upside down with sufficient differential pressure on the wing ( if the wing has sufficient surface area and low kinetic friction. The practical challenge is making a transition from upright to upside down using a specially designed track and making sure the engine can function while operating upside down. The laws of physics are universal at this scale.
Just build an upside side down track. Insert a recessed rail line maybe 2 for extra safety. Connect car to sliding track tighten it to match correct forces of gravity to simulate a similar effect of gravity. Put g force or what ever kind of sensors connected to attachment points (measurement points). Measure forces as driver (or robot) drives car on track. You could technically say it was driving on the track using down forces created by its speed and design. Step 2: creat speed racer style race track and purposefully make people race upside down and do loopdy loops and jumps! And make the track look like a hot wheels track! Come on the future. You can do it.
The man the myth the legend. Good ole Mike, head of aero at lotus along with you guessed it James Allison. Not surprising today mercedes are renown tire whisperers.
@Mercedes you are total legends for this type of content! If possible, can you have the presenters wear a headset with a microphone? #bestTeam #bestFans
The air is already directed upwards. This creates actually additional downforce. And if the cars wings are turned upside down you basically have got an airplane. But good luck flying with this thing ^^
I think that the biggest problem isn’t whether or not the F1 car can drive upside down, it’s whether or not you can find the kind of facility to do it in
As an aircraft designer, I take issue with being “sucked into the air”. That is not the case. Because the air on the lower side of an aircraft wing travels slower, as it moves from the front to the back of the wing, the pressure of that air is higher than faster-moving air on the upper side of the wing. If you want a real-world example, stick your head out of a car window when you ARE NOT driving! The high-speed air, passing along the car, will pull the air out of your lungs. It is quite uncomfortable. On an aircraft wing, the low-pressure of the air on the upper surface of the wing means that the wing is pushed into the air from underneath. What the Mercedes aerodynamicist meant to say refers to downforce from under the car. Airflow accelerates air as it passes around the skirt of the car. This fast-flowing air sucks air from under the car, resulting in the floor of the car being pulled towards the tarmac. Even when an aircraft is on the ground, the wings are tipped up at the leading edge of the wing. So, as speed increases, there is a slight amount of lift that is intended to help the aircraft transition to flight. Wings don’t suck...amusing though this might sound...
Use a proper headset plz instead of the built-in mic of ur laptop...... U all spend millions of euro's on a Formula 1 car, but can't for example buy a decent Jabra headset so you sound better?
I just can't accept some of the answers of the guy on the right and he suppose to be some expert. First of all, in the low-speed corners, there is no air to push on the wings, thus rendering the wings less effective (you can see this on videos where cars lost their wings and on the high-speed corners they immediately go off, whilst on low-speed corners they can run fine), second, a F1 car cannot run upside-down (at least not for long), there isn't sufficient oil pressure and lubrication, because, due to gravity, all oil will fall from the bay to the top of cylinders and also the fuel will go down from the reservoir. The amount of downforce may keep the car sucked to the ceiling, but liquids inside will definitely fall down.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA W2D5 | Fall | พลาดวันนี้ จะต้องเสียใจ](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/A5-Cuo12p6A/mqdefault.jpg)
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"Its to risky"
Red Bull: *allow us to introduce ourselves*
Jup :)
You beat me to it
Well they never did it either...
Or as Austin Powers would put it: "Allow myself to introduce *awkward pause* myself"
"Can F1 car drive upside down?"
Hamilton: not with these tires bono...
Lando: like a roller coaster?
Kimi: is the car... Have the drink on?
Hi fellow degenerate
No Kimi you will not have de derinck
Gimme the steering wheel, hey! gloves and steering wheel
Kimi would not have the drink if the drink depends on gravity
Is kimi alcoholic
GTA V: Allow me to demonstrate
Christian Pieris LMAO
Vettel when he is in the loop:S🅱️inalla
@@ferrariman7695 he would do a 360 on the ceiling and kept going until he receives a call from toto to activate
EuRoBeAt
I am a nerd and I enjoy these sessions as much as a I enjoy a race - your welcome all the nerds
😄😄😄
I actually enjoy the tech more than the races 😅
@@mehdidamfs3112 same here..
@@mehdidamfs3112 well F1 is also about tech after all
@@mehdidamfs3112 yep 🙌🏼
Even a pandemic can't stop Mercedes from explaining stuff
4:44 I worked this out once and the extra speed required to generate enough traction to overcome drag is quite significant. In fact, the L/D of the overall aero package is a factor. Too inefficient an aero package and the extra speed required exceeds the Vmax of the car. I don't have up to date numbers but Canada / Spa aero packages used to be the sweet spot for the slowest viable upside down speed.
How did you do that without the Cl or Cd?
When u bored in quarantine
Merc:
Lewis: not with these tires I can't Bono
Sheesh give it a rest already. So tired of reading these comments.
3:35 I think if we break down the question, it should be like this
1) Where do downforce makes the most difference: Low and Medium speed corners, because naturally those corners take more time. This is probably one of the key reasons to why in 2019 Mercedes was so dominant in these corners and why they were quite slow on straights. Their philosophy of the 2019 car design is "downforce at all costs".
2) Where do downforce make up the most of the grip: High speed corners, because when you need crazy amount of grip for corners like Silverstone Copse, only crazy amount of downforce can offer you that.
@Andrew Exactly. I've been arguing this point with "arm chair" experts for years. They misunderstand downforce. While it's needed for high speed, relative to time - an f1 car loses most in slow speed corners. Hence the reason places like monaco/singapore and hungary demand max downforce. As with everything, it's a trade off. Mercedes design their cars for all tracks and conditions, unlike redbull that specifies high downforce tracks.
They weren't slow in a straight line, ferrari was just incredibly.. unexpectedly fast. For reasons we won't get into.
Another great side-effect of downforce is tire wear reduction due to less sliding. Managing today's capricious pirelli is key.
This team is awesome. Bare in mind, Mike Elliot designed the 2012/2013 lotus, which were renown for their amazing tire wear properties. He's an elite aerodynamicist.
Wow Mike. Great explanation and conversation! Thank you! The wing diagram was visually powerful.
with porridge for valtteri and fresh tires for lewis it will definetlz drive upside down
Mercedes is the team to ask and explain these questions with maturity and professionalism
Redbull is the team to say "hold my beer" and actually try it
......... not saying it has to be done but redbull, it better.
Noah Skerman and red bull is the team that throws their toys outta the pram over the DAS system, all because they didn’t think of it....
Thank you Mike and Mercedes. As an aspiring aerodynamicist, this was very helpful.
Thanks for doing these sessions. One thought about how we can experience some of these forces... If you've ever driven closely behind a semi (lorry in England) at highway speeds, you'll have noticed how you get sucked toward it and have to let off the throttle a bit.
Nice chat. Who would have thought an aerodynamicist could be so much fun? Something that's bothered me regarding DAS: If this is a game of millimeters, wouldn't any variation in the outward angle of the front wheels, change the airflow coming off those tires and disrupt the chain of vortices that the aero folks have so meticulously set up? Does anyone out there have any guesses?
@Pat Baskshis I'd say no. The models have to compensate not only rotational turbulence coming off the tires but directional steering lock. F1 cars have to turn sometime. This was primarily mclaren's problem in 2018.
The slight change in chamber might slightly reduce drag, increasing top speed. But that effect would be negligible.
@@Bahamuttiamat If I understand it right, the toe opens up to attack curves and slots back to normal on straights. Too bad we won't have a full season to tinker with it. You have a point---nothing's static about a race. Wonder if they can angle the air flow in their wind tunnel to replicate certain curves on certain tracks. Or is that a matter for CFD?
Thank you Mercedes for all these videos ..
Good boost for IQ in this stupid quarantine social media feed. Stay like this always Mercedes! Big fan! :)
I haven't finished the video yet, I wonder at what speed the downforce starts to have effective results on the grip of the tyres.
At about 80 - 100 km/hour the role of aerodynamics becomes significant enough to produce both serious drag and downforce, and at 160+ the F1 car, in theory, can drive upside down. That's a very crude explanation ....
@@Nikowalker007 unless you have a Brabham BT46B.....in which case you can generate down force even when you are standing still...🤣🤣🤣
@@annamalaisureshbabu3671 True ... Vacuum power for the win 😄. The car was so ahead of its time that the regulators banned it after a few races ...
@@Nikowalker007 They didn't ban it. It only took part in 1 race where easily won, the other teams protested it saying that it threw rocks from behind, the FIA allowed them to use it for the rest of the season, but Brabham decided not to use it. It was banned for the year after though
@@jorge8596Yes, I guess there was a loophole in the FIA rule book and Brabham decided to go for it and claim it as a cooling fan for its v12 engine :) . Gordon Murray later wrote that the car was actually heavier and more powerful by 10 % than its competition, so there was a lot more stress on transmission, suspension and brakes, fuel consumption was also much higher, so on fast and medium tracks it didn't really have significant advantage because it needed to carry more fuel or spend more time in pits, but it would definitely shine and was total track animal in Monaco or any slow track, I guess it was not worth potential hassle with lawyers, sponsors, fans, etc in the future so Brabham decided to withdraw the Fan car. Actually, this reminds me a lot about the story, (scandal?) , with Ferrari fuel consumption last year, and how it managed to squeeze more power using a loophole in a fuel delivery system regulations (in Monza, even with DRS, Lewis could barely keep up with Charles). Then, at the end of the season every team protested and FIA said, although not illegal, Ferrari can't use this system anymore )
Amazing! I wish this was an hour long
Can an F1 engine keep running correctly when turned upside down?
Pretty sure they can
I mean they race in Australia and Brazil right?
not with carburetor at least
Loved it! Could you upload more technical videos please?
prove it, i dare u to drive an f1 car upside down
Wait for Red Bull to do it
Scott Mansell said he could do it if any team is interested, he made an video about it some years ago
Mercedes: discussing if an f1 car can drive upside down
Redbull: hahaha car go vroom
This was surprisingly interesting, thank you!
It was. Especially the fact downforce is more important in slow speed corners than high.
Thank you for giving me something to watch when I’m bored😁
EDIT: Just watched the video. It says Simple Science but it’s too complicated for me😂
Hi, how are you?
😂
Yes, an Indy car can drive upside down with sufficient differential pressure on the wing ( if the wing has sufficient surface area and low kinetic friction. The practical challenge is making a transition from upright to upside down using a specially designed track and making sure the engine can function while operating upside down. The laws of physics are universal at this scale.
I LOVE AERODYNAMICS!!!!! THANK YOU MERCEDES-BENZ F1 AMG PETRONAS!!!!!!! MORE TECHNICAL VIDEOS!!! I LOVE F1!
Just build an upside side down track. Insert a recessed rail line maybe 2 for extra safety. Connect car to sliding track tighten it to match correct forces of gravity to simulate a similar effect of gravity. Put g force or what ever kind of sensors connected to attachment points (measurement points).
Measure forces as driver (or robot) drives car on track. You could technically say it was driving on the track using down forces created by its speed and design.
Step 2: creat speed racer style race track and purposefully make people race upside down and do loopdy loops and jumps! And make the track look like a hot wheels track!
Come on the future. You can do it.
I'm Studying aerodynamics currently, and it is my dream to work in an F1 team as an aerodynamic engineer.
good luck
@@hanjarake_taro thanks!
Yes it can. But the car has to maintain very high speed i think🤔🏎
not so fast, than you thimk imo
You’ve just simplified this vid so much 🙏🙏😀
Not if the car in question is a Brabham BT46B....
not that high for an F1 car, 150kph or a little more than 93 mph
It can be done at minus speed...
This'll be interesting
More like these please!!!
Shia LaBeouf: YES YOU CAN!
Maybe this application in a tunnel to a space station down the road iñ time !All the Power to these Blokes!
Oh that's a fantastic interview question.
The man the myth the legend. Good ole Mike, head of aero at lotus along with you guessed it James Allison. Not surprising today mercedes are renown tire whisperers.
No one:
Mercedes Stuck in lockdown and bored out of their minds: *lOL cOUlD wE sOMEhoW gEt LeWIs'S cAr tO dRIvE uPsIdE DowN*
I love this!
Very interesting!
Why do Mercedes gotta be the best in everything???? ❤️
They're not the best in straight line speed.
😞😢😭
@@vishaljosealukka4258 They actually are. And they run a legal engine.
Remember gentlemen eat your cereal
Wtf I literally was just about to start eating cereal then I read this
Great video
No one:
Mercedes: cAn an F1 cAr DriVE UpSiDE doWn?
Umm
Y e s
@Mercedes you are total legends for this type of content! If possible, can you have the presenters wear a headset with a microphone? #bestTeam #bestFans
Hey. You have an advertisement doing that with M. Schumacher.
Do Bradley Lord next! Oh and can you get bono!!?!
Good job Mercedes.
There are multiple races in the Southern Hemisphere. They don’t even need F1 cars to do it there anyways.
Very cool.
It's very interesting but i want to see you BACK on TRACK
I just wonder how Red Bull hasn't done that yet. Driving upside down I mean
What is so hard to understand about Bernoulli's principle?
Just send it!
This topic is so interesting but unfortunately the audio is so bad I can barely hear anything :/
where can i apply for a job at mercedes-amg
Ferrari definitely needs to watch this video.
It's ok if the car falls off the ceiling the halo will save the driver!
So can an f1 car fly if we hypothetically redirected the air upwards
The air is already directed upwards. This creates actually additional downforce. And if the cars wings are turned upside down you basically have got an airplane. But good luck flying with this thing ^^
I think that the biggest problem isn’t whether or not the F1 car can drive upside down, it’s whether or not you can find the kind of facility to do it in
The most crucial aerodynamic component will be the most forward component.
Need someone to do it? I'm game 😁
he sounds like brendon leigh
Mercedes, you have a fair few cars left over, imagine the marketing if you drove an f1 car upside down
As an aircraft designer, I take issue with being “sucked into the air”. That is not the case. Because the air on the lower side of an aircraft wing travels slower, as it moves from the front to the back of the wing, the pressure of that air is higher than faster-moving air on the upper side of the wing. If you want a real-world example, stick your head out of a car window when you ARE NOT driving! The high-speed air, passing along the car, will pull the air out of your lungs. It is quite uncomfortable. On an aircraft wing, the low-pressure of the air on the upper surface of the wing means that the wing is pushed into the air from underneath. What the Mercedes aerodynamicist meant to say refers to downforce from under the car. Airflow accelerates air as it passes around the skirt of the car. This fast-flowing air sucks air from under the car, resulting in the floor of the car being pulled towards the tarmac. Even when an aircraft is on the ground, the wings are tipped up at the leading edge of the wing. So, as speed increases, there is a slight amount of lift that is intended to help the aircraft transition to flight. Wings don’t suck...amusing though this might sound...
Wow, nobody cares. That’s crazy huh😂
What a loser😂😂 pretending to be an expert, how tragic
Surely winning 6 world championship AMG can afford a better microphone than a rat shouting in a empty tin can
Dirty air = driving 2 car lengths behind a tractor trailer on the highway.
well, f1 cars can survive big crashes, and driving upside down (if the ceiling was low enough) is probably just as dangerous as a race.
It can at top and constant speed
Q: would an F1 powertrain work upside down?
Now dats a good question if it does redbull is def gonna do it
JUST DO IT :D
:)
I wonder how many of ferrari's engineers watch these videos.
1999 Le Mans flashbacks.
Nobody gonna bring up the infamous SLS tunnel stunt fiasco?
It was a gimmick
🤩
I’m just waiting for a team to create aero-work that won’t break apart after any contact
Which is impossible because of speed and forces at those speeds
Second
You don’t need an f1 car to drive upside down. A jaguar f-pace did a loop-the-loop 😂
4th
Bono! Can you not see that? these tyres are dead!
Idk
a driver wouldn't be an issue imo. Can't manufacturers in this day and age make a remotely-controlled car?
Sound is so bad.
Notice me senpai
Never to old to learn, the suck of curves aye.
Use a proper headset plz instead of the built-in mic of ur laptop......
U all spend millions of euro's on a Formula 1 car, but can't for example buy a decent Jabra headset so you sound better?
Why does the Mercedes shirt looks so dirty?
They really got nothin to do
Get Steve o to drive in the tunnel
Build the tunnel and I will drive the car. 🙃
Only Lando's McLaren can do it
Are we going to see upside down F1 ???? I hope I do....
First
1st
I just can't accept some of the answers of the guy on the right and he suppose to be some expert. First of all, in the low-speed corners, there is no air to push on the wings, thus rendering the wings less effective (you can see this on videos where cars lost their wings and on the high-speed corners they immediately go off, whilst on low-speed corners they can run fine), second, a F1 car cannot run upside-down (at least not for long), there isn't sufficient oil pressure and lubrication, because, due to gravity, all oil will fall from the bay to the top of cylinders and also the fuel will go down from the reservoir. The amount of downforce may keep the car sucked to the ceiling, but liquids inside will definitely fall down.
mercedes is putting all this money in Formula 1 but their passenger cars fall apart.. i miss my toyota camry and my honda accord..mercedes = moneypit
"Front wing is the most important part in aerodynamic"
Vettel at Interlagos 2012: Pardon me, i don't need a front wing
First