Procedural generation
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ต.ค. 2024
- David Braben talks about procedural generation and how it is being used in Elite: Dangerous
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I could listen to David talk about this kind of stuff all day.
+LeShark75 Clone him, we need more people like this
Yep🤣
I never really thought how much complexity and realism goes into this game. To me, a good space sim should not only give you beautiful graphics or even some economy and trading simulation, but also the feel of all these things being possible in the real life, by explaining all the physics behind it.
Great work so far ;)
Five years later, I watch these videos and figure out, 'Holy crap there's still so much more in store for Elite'. I love this game, thank you for wanting to make Elite: Dangerous, David.
Jakob Beckham hopefully
So amazing... I’d love to see this guy in charge of Odyssey...
I wish they could make videos like these again. I love them!
I remember seeing those clouds at 4:39 and going: "ok, that's it, I'm sold! Now, what is this kickstarter thing?". And here I am, 3 years later. I still don't have those clouds in the game, but what I do have was well worth my money. I feel that what I pledged was a steal compared to the fun I had with this game.
Those clouds are in the game! they use these procedural methods on planets, so they can be seen at a distance to have realistic weather and stuff. Admittedly, we can't get that close, but once atmospheric flight is modelled and greater surface detail is available, we'll be down there.
Two years later, do you still share the same thoughts on this?
xtremetuberVII 1 month later... I dont. But i still think landing on rocky and icy planets is cool. Although i would kill to fly into jupiter and be crushed and torn apart by the pressure and wind. It would be glorious
@@xtremetuberVII Another 2 years later, it's happening bois
Well, 2022 and we can land on planets with atmospheres but not a single cloud in them. I hope they add clouds soon, like in may be another 10 years?
You're doing God's work, David, you're our hero.
The genius who put our galaxy on a three and half inch floppy! Can't wait to see Elite Dangerous when it's finished, Frontier was my favourite game on the Amiga by far. I've heard that in future instalments you'll be able to land on the planets. I'm curious to find out how they intend to code Earth's landscapes and cities with any sort of accuracy.
I vote for London covering the entire surface
I imagine earth would be one of the planets we have the ability to hand craft based on known data.
RichieW From what I've seen it's quite accurate, as seen from space. But the job of making Earth a place you can land on must be rather daunting! I can't really imagine how they would do it convincingly.
Dirkardo StEvergreen
The point is, with procedural generation it can be done convincingly. It's just a matter of how many diffrent ingredients you add, and what ''rules'' you give them. I mean, they could practically procedurally generate an entire planet like the earth with all its people, economics, psychology, sociology, infrastructure... But that would take ENOURMOUS amounts of time lol. So best thing would be to focus on what's important for the gameplay, like gathering of recources, landing on bases, maybe a few areas to do some shooting and just make a cool nature world to fly over with stuff to do that make sense for a space exploration game. You gottta draw the line somewhere ;). I just don't see it happen within a year...
Woodythehobo so you want pakistanis indians and kebap joints everywhere???i think ill pass......its 3300 AD so they can do what ever they want with it probably a after ww3 earth would be cool or asteroid impacted partialy uninhabited part of the planet also.
This is 6 years old. How are the clouds looking now @DavidBraben?
And now it's almost another 6 years old :)
Awesome, I hope they put in the weird stuff too like black holes, Rouge planets, Pulsars ect ect. I would love to just exsplore the universe and seek those things out..
+jason daysh Not sure about the rest, but black holes DO exist in E:D.
9 years later, still can't scoop from gas giants
Considering how far Elite dangerous has come with planetary landings, I look at this and feel inspired and excited to one day be able to fly among the clouds of a gas giant.
There's been some incredible advances in real time GPU generated voxels recently (DX11 Physx).
could be very useful for clouds nebulas etc. huge numbers can be rendered at once and they can physically react to objects like a player's ship.
you would only notice depth in a nebula if you where in hyperspace, but they already have an effect for that..
I hope David never leaves frontier.
Hey, I'm from the future and I can tell you, by the state of the game, that we probably wouldn't mind new/different people managing Elite…
@@Shahraman These days I would have to agree with you
@@Shahraman nah man. He is not the perfect guy for the job at the moment. But still elite dangerous is one of my all time favorites. And i can't imagine anyone else making a game like this.
In my opinion he defenitly does not deserve to be replaced.
+we are getting odyssey which is gonna be awesome trust me.
Love the game so far David. Great job!
David Braben, you are a genius. You have outdone yourself again and again and again.
I just wanna fly from space into a thuderstorm and land under an alien rain falling down on the ship windows in a little windy day. That's one of my great dreams about it :)
Thanks David, as an undergraduate of IT & software development I found this fascinating.
I totally agree with you on procedural generation. It's one of the "lost arts" most game developers aren't taking seriously enough. I used to play Elite Plus back when I was a kid and am really looking forward to the game. I hope you make ship control much better than it was back then, though. Star Citizen seems to be going in a great direction here, and controlling one's ship in a game such as Freelancer also felt very smooth and intuitive.
@Elite when are we getting clouds to fly thru?
6 years later, so what is your progress on this ?
Why aren't you using Proc Gen with the new Odyssey flora??
At last David speaks! Nice explanation of procedural generation. Oh, I do so hope Elite Dangerous gets made.
I know the procedural Generating is amazing, but can we take the time to appreciate the green-screen work behind David lol
I can't wait... it looked decent THEN... how much better will it look when it's done?!
I'm still waiting for those clouds :P
Right!!
It all came down to bad perfomance with simulating all of these physics and effects. And now, modern pcs have enough resources for that. But a large part of developers from original E:D team don't work in Frontier anymore. The current team resolve it's tasks too slow and unefficienly. That's a huge problem
@@morivy ED is still a great game but atmospheric landing was the feature i was the most excited for.
Would love to be able to enter a Gas giant atmosphere rather than walk on some planets personally.
Hopefully next big expansion delivers!
Clouds, electrical storms... Maybe it's time to really make them?
So cool! I love that someone is talking about these 'old school' techniques that have fallen by the wayside.
I want my own Braben, Hows that Cloning technology coming along?
I think you'll just have to generate one
I feel like I'm watching numberphile...
Ah payday, when you arrive and Christmas has been paid for, I can throw whatever money I have left at David Braben so he can update one of my favourite games of all time. Hope you reach your target, I've been waiting for this for a long time!
i love you david, god bless you
I think I find the gas giants the most enticing because as far as I know, I don't know of any one game that has done the concept of a gas giant well. Like you guys said, the surfaces are solid because of how it's graphically represented. I'd like to see what Elite: Dangerous comes up with and how you can provide the best experience you can while keeping that smooth procedural generation!
It's funny to see the clouds generated by ray marching, while i'm actually researching that technique at the moment in GLSL. :)
Awesome! THE game I've been looking forward to for about as long as I can remember. Way to go, mr. Braben!
I have been into Elite since playing Elite II in school... I even remember sending a letter into Frontier development when I was 14 saying how you should be able to buy docking bays for the lager ships to carry smaller ships or fighters lol. Elite got me into computers and writing Elite save game editors and clones got me into programming.
Be excellent to see how life develops on each Planet on a random generation.
Everything beyond the known Galaxy randomly generated to bring such Worlds to life.
Exciting stuff!
It'd be cool to go into gas giants. What people don't realize though is that there is incredible pressure and heat the farther in you go, and nothing we know of can withstand it.
quality not quantity !!! the key is getting the procedural complexity so vast that each planet, star system feels unique and not just created from a cookie cutter template...
Hey there!!! 7 years passed... any news?
This is the same idea behind the topographical detail in No Man's Sky's planets, if I'm not mistaken. Tons of detail distilled to a tiny number seed, and unpackaged by each visitor.
CatAtomic99 Yea, it's a shame that No Man's Sky won't have Gas Giants though.
Jack Amphlett
It seems like No Man's Sky has a really odd sense of scale, too. The clips I've seen had planets that wouldn't even qualify as moons.
CatAtomic99 Yea, it's kind of weird, I saw one of the devs talking about how green skies were apparently impossible, I was like umm no they aren't! Chlorine atmospheres would have a green sky, and so would Earth if the sun was cooler. Meh. Doesn't seem like that much of a good game.
+Captain Oblivious Yeah, but No Mens Sky is much more randomly generated with a little bit of science anyway they trigger interest, but thats it. I'll play it on PC togheter with Horizons waiting for next season :D
Elite anyway is much more scientifically and technically accurate. It's the best and I cannot wait for all those incredible stuff ! Can listen such videos many times :) Love Elite.
I bet you feel like a dumb ass
One week away from year 2020 here. Still no clouds or atmospheres, and Elite hasn't had much in the way of updates this year. However, it's still fun, and there are rumors of something BIG coming. Here's hoping. This game has sooooooo much potential.
Seriously, mathematics, astronomy, art, all pushed into an amazing space-sim??
This is going to be such an amazing game, & nothing less than a dream to play. It's so cool that the procedural generation David is talking about looks to be exactly what the Kepler mission is actually finding out in the universe solar system wise.
Mathematics and the universe really do go together. The whole concept of this game is nothing less than brilliant. Money well spent on funding this beautiful baby. :)
This is so exciting! I'm glad Braben has returned to this amazing series of games, and about time too! ^_^ The technology is there now, updates to games can go on for years and years and especially in open ended large games like this would be (look at WoW, still going and wildly popular). With player mods and new content being added Elite Dangerous will be even more of a timesink than the earlier games!
wow I love this game
I wouldn't mind getting orbital cruise in gas giants before regular atmospheric flight if they're already coming along on it four years ago.
I'm pretty sure they're working on atmospheric planets AND gas giants for years now in Frontier.
The dicotomy between Braben’s dream and Fdev’s execution :(
Errr it's not finished yet dopey
Loved the explanation and detail, Really cannot wait for this game!!
I've waited for this game for 15+ years. I loved Elite on the Commodore 64 and then later Frontier on the Amiga...I can't wait for this game to be made. I've waited too long already!
Elite always staggered me. Even today, the most ambitious games fail to live up to that magical feeling that you can go anywhere, and do anything.
To me, Elite always had the same majestic feeling that 2001: A Space Odyssy did. You really get a feeling of the vast emptiness of space, and all the possibilities that could be out there. The thought of what David Braben could make for modern computers just boggles the mind. It'll be a crime against the universe if this game isn't made.
I backed both, and interestingly Chris Roberts has also backed Elite and has said he is looking forward to playing in the Alpha and likewise David Braben has said he is looking forward to playing Star Citizen. They are both quite distinctly different and the genre as a whole needs both of them to really make 2014 special and may I say it? Drive innovation. Good luck to both of them!
Yoh its 2020 where we at wit dis
I suggest you to put the kickstarter link in the description!!
Interesting Video. Elite is my all time favorite game, and I couldn't be more excited about Elite: Dangerous. So many space games completely miss the mark and don't have what makes a space game fun (for me), and that is a procedurally generated universe at real scale. From what I've seen David/Frontier are targeting the important technologies of making that universe a rich and diverse place to explore.
Support this game!
With Odyssey, you'll show what you wanted to do back in the days.
In a decade or so we may actually see what he just talked about...
+indianaP wnz no such thing as bug free
It is fun.
Only 7-8 years left! ;3
@bulldog23ist I'll be surprised if Star Citizen ever becomes an actual game.
@Ben Edwards do you understand David Braben Invented the space sim! With three amazing games on 8bit and16bit systems!! Imagine what he could do with today computers? His game Frontier made such an impression on me I still think about it too this day.
I wonder if atmospheres are ever going to appear. It seems like Mr Braben was pretty set on this from the start.
6:20 looking at Space Engine again, we can see that procedural generation can indeed provide very varied planets and solar systems, given enough flexibility in the system (for example, allowing for quintuple star systems, however rare, etc).
But one thing i would like to see used more in procedural planet generation is inclusion of rare BIG elements. This is a great way to diversity planets.
Think of the mariner valley on mars, or olympus mons
Having rare but very big random landscape features
Have you thought about adding properties to the gas giant clouds like weight/mass and thickness and seeing how they behave with simulated solar wind? Or is that a little too much on the processor?
David you do realise you are going cost me new computer. As there is no way I will miss this game. What a beautiful vision he has for Elite it will be a crime if this game is not made....
I love this, I am reading Arthur C Clarke's Odyssey's again, and have also read Stephen Baxter's Space, and love science fiction when it includes science fact!
Brian :)
Would love to hear an update from Db and Fdev about this, is it still in the plan?
Minute 6:00 is where Braben predicts the future and tells of the inevitable failure of NMS. XD
sort of, though really it is a genuine challenge to not make planets feel samey after a while, or at least that's the case with current technology. best way around it ironically is to do what Hello Games are doing BUT more quickly and probably with a better number of starting variables; what you do is put game patches to use by having them include new procedural designs that the game can add to the collection of already existing designs. Hello Games made the mistake of only starting with a few design variables before they finally started adding more in. Personally I feel a little bad for Hello Games, No Man's Sky still looks like a game with potential but they released it too early, they should've done what David and Ian did and just kept the project quiet for a little while longer until it was definitely ready.
Or the 'Outerra' engine. Some sort of procedural surface mapping anyway.
Please focus on 1st person immersion. I personally think 3rd person breaks the atmos, but at least make 1st person the primary if it's to be included.
Please make the procedural generation so sophisticated that our brains won't be able to notice the patterns and discovering new systems will feels fresh even years after playing it. Can you make colours procedurally generated as well? Also, will we be able to build bases and other structures on planets and asteroids?
amazing, i'm gonna learn how to do that. any dummies guides on this?
I am out in the black scanning planets that have never been discovered and then mapping some of the interesting ones. If I land on one of these planets does the generation system have a chance of placing alien artifacts or guardian ruins or anything of a constructed nature?
I like how his sweater matches the background.
+CalienteQuack I thought it was dandruff at first and then realised it was sparkles
thank you very much David
Looks briliant
Would love to spend time in the universe that your describing, sounds like the kind of game that I could sink my teeth into.
One question: Do ships have enough thrust to fly on planets? Let alone gas giants with 20 G, when the current top speed is around 500 m/s(not included FSD)?
Keep working on those clouds, would be amazing if they looked like that concept art
Did anyone catch that quickly mentioned reference to URANUS as an important GAS GIANT LOL :-)
They deliberately kept the number small in order not to "give the game away". It was felt that people would assume it was some kind of con if they used procedural generation to it's full potential. It was after all the first game to do anything like that. (ref. EDGE-online: The Making Of: Elite)
Davin Braben IS spacesim videogaming.
What music is used at the end of this film? It's brilliant!
yea i also love procedural generation! i think it really has the potential to create infinite content without losing its quality, good thing at least ONE developer is working on it! (again) also for those who want some realistic space experience, download "Space Engine" it uses procedural generation to generate the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, so yea, you can go from a mountain in a remote planet to another galaxy without loading screens!
There will be a Galaxy size game area with roughly dozens of billion stars. For online play the Galaxy will be one and the same on all PCs that will play online. So you and I will see the same vast galaxy on our computers and it won't take a huge amount of disk space. This is ingenious.
Lmao! This aged like fine milk.
Eve also has completely detached space combat. Click the thing you want to attack, click the attack button. Felt more like an RTS controlling units than a "space sim".
The brilliant bit is, this is actually how our universe appeared
Eve is also procedural generated both the star system and the planets. With Dust514 planets can be explored. Eve have about 40-50k user online on the same server an battles between over 1200 players. With time-dilation this have become lag free. You can have almost every profession that have been mentioned in scifi. This level of immergence can never be created by NPC or a few friends. The same problem X3 and X2 had. The universe never felt alive. @dev0random have you played Eve the last year?
Still, every year we see some amazingly well crafted games, with the occasional gem here and there. Do you know about Dark Souls? Deus Ex? Metal Gear?
don't think they're going to do it, but procedurally generated music could have worked too. Expansive, ambient stuff when you're out in deep space and busier, beat-driven stuff near planets or space stations. All constantly evolving on the fly so you never hear the same stuff twice
What does "sim" mean in this case to you? Because Elite and similar while having simulation mechanics are hardly simulations of space.
Nice video and well said, my favourite genre is procedural generation and space, you guys need to hire me, won't regret promise!
Off topic but when Fibonacci was mentioned I started looking at that sequence.
personally, I wouldn't even DREAM to get near Jupiter, or any gaz giant for that mater, for the simple reason that if I do, I would be sucked in by its TREMENDOUS gravity force. not only that, but frontier seems to forget that the winds on jupiter reach overwhelming speeds that dwarfs the speed of any typhoon here on earth. around the thousands off km/h ). so yeah, unless I got myself an incredible powerful ship, flying over jupiter's clouds is a no go if they want to keep it realistic.
But, I wouldn't complain if they don't keep it realistic. ; )
Tronoid I dunno, Jupiter is only a bit over 300 times earth's mass, the sun has over 300,000 times more mass, and I scoop fuel from stars bigger (more massive) than the sun in E:D all the time - I don't even have to orbit, I can sit there (so whatever inertia dampening tech the game has in its ships could easily handle hovering over 1,000 jupiters smushed together!)
What would be a limit though is the atmosphere, but not because of the speed - because of the pressure. Inside a spaceship you have 1 atmosphere (like on Earth at sea-level) and outside you have roughly a vacuum (0 atmospheres). Jupiter has easily more than 10 atmospheres of pressure at what we consider its 'surface', but then the first vehicle we reached the bottom of the Marianas Trench in (a submarine) was built in the 1950's, and that's over 1000 atmospheres of pressure down there - they'd certainly have the tech to do it.
The big issue I think given what we know about the game? Heat - you'd generate a lot of shock heating flying through an atmosphere at the speeds we go in Elite, and it's even harder to dissipate heat into a gas giant where the background temperatures can be over 200 degrees, even at the high altitude cloud level.
Tronoid In Elite you can skim black holes to the point of seeing the galaxy warp around you due to lensing. Elite doesn't really give a fuck for any of our current laws of Physics
Tronoid Gravity on Jupiter wouldn't be all that bad, sure Jupiter is huge but it is a very puffy planet. You would weigh a bit over twice your normal weight which would't be a problem for some other Earth's strongest astronaut's. If you were to head on over to Saturn you would only weigh slightly more than you would on Earth BUT if you go to Saturn's equator something magical happens, Saturn spins so fast on its axis that would actually weigh just a bit less than you would normally. Gas giants aren't as crappy places to be as you would expect.
Goobli bloo! I didn't know that about Saturn. Learn something new everyday. Thanks.
Scuffy P You didn't know that because it's not true :P
Rotational inertia (from the planets spin) has very little effect on felt gravity on the surface on bodies without an atmosphere (negligible, even), and virtually none at all on bodies with atmospheres. Saturn has a massive atmosphere
Your velocity due to spin on earth if you live in alaska is about 375mph, if you live in mexico it's about 1,000mph. Does that mean you feel lighter in mexico? No, of course not. What about flying - could you use that to your advantage somehow? Again no, because the *atmosphere* also spins at the same speed, so relative to the ground and air standing still is simply *standing still*.
Gravity at the surface (Ice layer, beneath a deep sea of liquid hydrogen) is about 95 times what it is on Earth (so still 20 times higher than what it'd need to be to immobilize a person and 10 times higher than it needs to kill you - assuming you hadn't died by that point from the pressure or cold somehow, like if you were in some super-sub).
I dont understand english so well, but basically you are saying procedural generation works on the fibonacci system? Its a bit confusing because the fibonacci system is not random as you say and actually real randomness is impossible to be done on a computer that is only capable of doing calculations.
Clouds in Elite!!? 😂😂😂
Human Revolution wasn't any more railroaded than its predecessor but perhaps it felt that way because it was more polished.
@TheGreatSteve I do hope so, there really is no need for Elite to be Graphical monster. It would also eat up the budget quite a bit.
Umm? Yes, well the link that Lisa above provided, DB talks exactly about what you are referring planet, stations wise. Actually getting out of your cockpit and walking about your ship [pending on size] and stations and such. It won't be in release, but they have a working concept and are coding it for part of the future game. They put this all together and it will blow the space-sim world to a whole new level. :)
/watch?v=rL8zDgTlXso
He said that players would scoop fuel from gas giants, am I understanding this correctly? More than 7 years later we have fuel scooping from stars, not brown dwarves though. For me it makes more sense to scoop fuel from gas giants, is this due to some technical limitation of the game?
they CBA M8
Here is a wild idea, since its online you could monitor stats and pump that into the equasions to evolve the world.
e.g. say a system is very popular with lots of ships visiting, maybe spacial polution rises
etc...
If you have the framework in place its just more maths etc
Can you land on gas giants in the horizons expansion yet?
gas giants are gas giants
You can't land on a gas giant unless you plan on going to it's core. Also no. No you cannot.
Excellent video, cheers David, Fibonacci rocks (and clouds) :-)
It's amazing to see such passion for development as you show David. Frontier has been my favourite game since I first played it and I've wondered why one like it has never been made again, with the gaming industry having grown so much. Made my pledge on kickstarter.