This is a great essay! One of the best I've seen about Muad'dib. He is definitely a very complex character. I think your channel is destined for greatness. Also you have very pretty eyes!
Hm, interesting take. Both Anakin and Luke were given choices and were responsible for the choices they made, whereas I think Paul’s choices were a little more forced upon him.
@@TiffanyRussell Paul Atreides is the personification of the Millennial Hero, just like Harry Potter but Harry tried to kill his shadow. Luke Skywalker was, for example, the Baby Boomer Hero... in the most recent trilogy, through millennial understanding, he was not that great for sure. Leto is the boomer parent, Paul is the millennial son and he discovers, just like Harry, that he has a powerful deep shadow inside of him. Harry tried to killed the shadow inside of him but Paul INTEGRATED it, used it, embraced it. Paul betrays the idealistic values of his boomer father to ascend, to do what he has to do, to survive, to a greater cause, to lead a nation. Paul Atreides is the most heroic hero of all the f**k*ng heroic heroes. He is just doing what he has to do, no idealistic delusional s**t but acceptance and courage and wisdom for integrate the shadow as the source of his concrete mundane factual power. The status game is inevitable, the power game is inevitable.
LOVE your take on "The Chosen One" angle on the story. Herbert has a very unique take on it, and not alot of people pick up on that. Thanks for posting this video :)
Paul is a tragic character. His family was done a great injustice. Paul also has incredible powers to rectify that and seek revenge. I think most of us would have done the same. That revenge also happens to lead to billions of deaths, and Paul didn’t really seem to care much about that. That’s where Paul becomes indefensible
I'm writing an essay on dune and am looking at videos for ideas and sources. I think that you brought up some really good points about him being a grey character and not a typical hero. I'm about to watch your other video on Paul and if you know any other good takes on his character I'd love to watch them! Great video!
Thank you so much! I actually don’t know of other good character videos, which I started doing these in the first place. I’m so glad it could help your essay!
Paul Atreides is the personification of the Millennial Hero, just like Harry Potter but Harry tried to kill his shadow. Luke Skywalker was, for example, the Baby Boomer Hero... in the most recent trilogy, through millennial understanding, he was not that great for sure. Leto is the boomer parent, Paul is the millennial son and he discovers, just like Harry, that he has a powerful deep shadow inside of him. Harry tried to killed the shadow inside of him but Paul INTEGRATED it, used it, embraced it. Paul betrays the idealistic values of his boomer father to ascend, to do what he has to do, to survive, to a greater cause, to lead a nation. Paul Atreides is the most heroic hero of all the f**k*ng heroic heroes. He is just doing what he has to do, no idealistic delusional s**t but acceptance and courage and wisdom for integrate the shadow as the source of his concrete mundane factual power. The status game is inevitable, the power game is inevitable.
Killer analysis. Manufactured indeed. BG breeding program + BG skills + Ginaz swordmaster training + mentat training + Atreides statecraft + prescient dreams + Kynes' approval + the Missionary Protectiva myth x the spice agony = KH. Paul can now take revenge but knows it will transform himself and the Atreides reputation from respect to jihad level dread.
I love how Dune subverts the whole hero messiah concept. Herbert's message is that heroes and charismatic leaders are bad, and that's partly what Paul and Leto II are trying to impart. In a way, they are being a hero by being a villain, if you really believe the future they foresaw was unavoidable. It's generally accepted there was no other way. Or is it more heroic to let the race suffer and die rather than commit atrocities themselves. I don't think he's trying to be a hero. I love a moment in the first book, with Paul struggling with what he'll have to do, how the fremen are beginning to idolize him, how his mother and the Bene G have been controlling him and everything. He thinks 'i could stop this now, I have a chance, if I kill everyone here', including his mother. It not only shows him realizing what his future holds, what his being a savior will lead to, and how he considered massacre as a solution. It's a really interesting take, and not at all a typical story!.
So far I have only read the first two books, but even in the first while he’s still a teen, you can see his internal struggle. Nothing about his journey or the decisions he has to make is easy.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the next book in the series. You are really insightful in this video, but the second book really shakes things up!
I don't agree with the analisys of the relationship with Chani. It doesn't take into consideration his social position in a feudal society and his condition as a Kwisatz Haderach. Given this, she had the best ending they where allowed to have. But to understand that is a must reading the first four books
I don't even see you needing to read more than the first book to get this part. Also there was more than OP let on in the relationship building moments, like when Paul asked her to carry his water rings, and how she was to teach him their ways, so they were always together, and she was the first teacher of his that was also close to his age. Sure Herbert didn't put that much effort into it, as his specialty is more world building sense, but lets not dismiss that he did put effort into their budding romance.
Hi Gus, Chani’s “ending” that I referred to is only based on the first book, where things with the love of her youth don’t end the way she may have wished. But you’re right that their society and what Paul is plays a role in their relationship, and that it continues into future books. Thank you for watching and commenting!
TheLazySamurai you’re right that the romance was there, I think my disappointment came more from it feeling like insta love. The characters were written for each other, and it automatically worked out for them, which is not how real relationships work. I like that you bring up the water rings, that’s an important piece.
Paul is as much a victim as a hero. In many of his movies, Clint Eastwood is portrayed as a victim and maybe a villain too. In the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, Blondy is a mass murderer, a person condemned to death, and the hero, of sorts. He is no better than the others, but he is more cunning and a better shot. The way he is portrayed we gain sympathy for Blondy, but we don't love him. Paul in Dune is a similar character. We want to love him, but in the end, maybe not. I think this is why Frank Hurbert ended the book with Jessica's speech as written. Our desire is to love Paul, but in the end, we must step back and evaluate our attachment to him.
I think you’re definitely right. He was largely the product of breeding, training, and his environment, and we are given the first half of the book to see him grow and suffer, and gain sympathy for him. Then in the second half we have to watch what he becomes.
I know this is two years late, this came up I think because of Dune two being out, but a question about Chani in this book. Personally the loss of Leto II is tragic, but not overly developed. As to the marriage though, it always seemed like she understood the situation. Ultimately this is a kind of odd melding of capitalism and feudalism in this future. If you understand how these things work, you can adapt a kind of utility about certain ends. If nothing else, the Fremen due seem to be a very utilitarian people in their approach.
Yes, and I believe Chani understands that. The Fremen don’t always marry for love, but while Paul was there, and not the Duke, it could’ve been a possibility. Book Chani is able to accept the part of Paul she gets to have.
I think Paul is a human who makes some very questionable desicions. Diversion away from your typical chosen one trope is a good thing, I like how it's done here. Poor Chani though, seriously, thanks for the emphasis on that haha.
The point about Paul’s faults and decisions, as questionable as they are, is one of the key themes of Frank Herbert’s Dune series. That theme being beware of heroes, humans are fallible, examine one’s own premises, and above all the dangers of charismatic leaders and fanaticism.
Lee you are definitely right, and anyone who reads the books can see that. But for people who have only seen the movie, he seems like a very heroic chosen one.
Guys , Dune the First book is not enough to judge Paul Atréides. To have a complete vision of his arc. You have to Add Dune Messiah Children’s of Dune And even the God emperor of Dune By the way, Paul remained true to Chani and his enemies knew that chani was the only way to get to him ( Dune Messiah)
Hi Jawad! Yes, only reading book 1 gives a partial picture of him. But for the people who have only read the first book, they can still enjoy this video!
In later books it is explicitly stated that the Atreides genealogy traces back the House of Atreus in Greek mythology. The House of Atreus is cursed by the gods and is the most dysfunctional family in Greek mythology.
@@TiffanyRussell you're welcome. I think it's in God Emperor of Dune? Leto II gives his genealogy. I just finished the last of Frank Herbert's Dune books. They aren't for everyone, but I'm glad I finished them. I think Frank Herbert has just tied Philip K. Dick for my favorite writer.
Paul doesn't marry Chani. He does enter into a political marriage of convenience to cement his right to the emperorship. That was normal to Paul. His father never married his mother. His father said he may need to married a royal from another house.. So that's why he never married Lady Jessica. This is in the next book Dune Messiah.... His wife gets treated like a squatter. Everyone in the known universe sees Chani as his true mate. Paul even tells his wife they both know who his real wife is (Chani). Paul is not very nice to Princess Irulan. The conversation when he tells his wife she can take a lover. But don't bring any babies back to his house. Just shows how cold Paul has become in his 12 years as emperor. But Paul and Chani's story is very tragic. I actually cried at the end of Dune Messiah.
Messiah is far more tragic than the first book. In the first one you can see how Paul might develop, but there’s more room for hope, then by the time the second book comes around, we see what the pressure of his role has done to him. And that does include how he treats the women in his life.
I've read the books and seen the movies, and Paul strikes me as a human being, who is both good and bad. In this way, Frank Herbert achieved his ultimate objective: that all leaders, even the heroes, should come with warning labels. I actually liked the end of Sci-fi's Children of Dune best: the ring as a reminder that all leaders are just human.
You’re so right. Paul, in addition to being a normal leader, was also seen as the religious leader and military leader, adding even more pressure, and putting him on an even higher pedestal for the fremen. But still human. Thanks for watching!
@@TiffanyRussell right. Youth can be both an advantage and a flaw. It adds to the richness of the character. Making him both heroic and untouchably virtuous would detract from the story.
Great stuff! Herbert states from the first moment that we are flawed and only reason can overcome animal instinct, which is a conscious choice requiring discipline. Paul is human, that's all, Kwisatz Haderach or not, and that's how he introduces Paul. Paul was born into an extraordinary position and his challenge is to live up to it or not, just like all of us. Are we heros when we suck it up and face the cards we are dealt? Can you imagine being Alia?
Hi Kelly! I do like that we meet Paul as a human, and slowly learn more about him as the story progresses. Hero for facing life? I don’t think so. And no, I don’t want to imagine it, being Alia would be SO HARD!
@@TiffanyRussell Paul's journey seems very Jungian. He can see into that dark place no one dares to look (our shadow), follows a truth only he can see (his true self), and fulfils his destiny (becomes whole), ugly as that might leave him to everyone else, and the world is better for it (well at least the Harkonens are gone). I'm pretty sure that's the basics of Individuation. But Herbert is deliberate in his use of the dead father motif, so he poses Paul as a hero figure and begs us to examine this hero thing -- it does take great courage to embrace your shadow and learn to both love and embrace your faults, and in that way we are all called to Paul's .. oh gosh, it might be a hero's quest after all, an inner one.
Lol! Love how you led us to the hero’s journey in this comment. I’ve heard so many different opinions on Paul and his role, I think it’s good to question everything about him and compare him to ourselves and our modern leaders.
Killer analysis! Yet I see Paul as a tragic figure, one with the makings of a hero who gets railroaded into other people's power grabs. For all of his powers, he is caught up in the crush of humanity's subconscious movement. Once he embraces the messiah role, he is overwhelmed with the destruction and hypocrisy around it, and struggling with that defines him from there on. Even as it's started, he feels crushed by it: "I have seen a friend become a worshiper... Muad'Dib from whom all blessings flow, he thought, and it was the bitterest thought of his life." He's just overwhelmed and trying to extricate himself; taking on the unconscious human hungers and hierarchies is beyond him. What is asked of him, what makes a good person while being called a Madhi is beyond his capability, and I think the book is showing us that it's beyond anyone. No human can ever truly be a messiah.
great analysis! please read Messiah, Children of Dune, and God Emperor next! Please please please--I can't wait to hear how your views of Paul might change!
In the end, Paul was just a coward. He refused to undergo the metamorphosis to start along the Golden Path and ensure the survival of the human race. He feared the repercussions of such a choice.
I have only read the first two books so far, so I have not seen a point where Paul seems cowardly. Although even by Messiah, he’s not forging ahead quite so fearlessly as in the first book.
@@thomasshady6470 No. I don't think anyone could really go through the absolute hell Leto II went through. And Paul even stated that he didn't want that for his only son. It's easy to judge from an outside perspective. But I'm sure that if we where in Paul's position, under his circumstances, most of us would've done the same.
I don't think he's a villain, he was forced into so many situations and he tried to find and do the best in those situations despite so many people trying to force things their way and use. Him
I disagree on the point in ur conclusion when you said he “has done everything he set out to do, he accomplished his goals he fulfilled the prophecies, he has done everything he was supposed to do”. It’s a very small point of disagreement but I feel that it ignores his continuous fear through the book of the religious war spreading in his name, which he unquestionably failed at doing. Maybe he can see that he failed in that respect so he is preparing himself to become the villain by making more questionable decisions. Or maybe he can see there will be a point in the future that he can turn things around again. Idk I haven’t read past the first book so thes theories are pretty half baked. Really loved the video tho!! Great work!
Ok, you’re right, he didn’t do everything yet. But as for the short term goal of leading the fremen and deposing the emperor, he accomplished these by the end of the first book. I think that’s a pretty solid way to set up the next one. Thanks for watching!
The thing with the Bene Gesserit's manipulations is that it's all a fiction anyway. Paul's arguably more knowledgeable about this than most. (I've never had the impression he ever believed in the KH nonsense, he just decided to take a pragmatic, fairly cynical turn, and use it to his advantage.) Even Paul's mother is tempted into near-superstitious awe over the possibility of Paul being the KH, when all Paul wants, deep down, is to be respected by his mother as her son, and not some prophet or false, deified figure. The tension between the two isn't because Paul's an ungrateful brat who blames her too much, it's there because he just wants to be a (relatively) ordinary man and son of his parents. He's responsible, he's fairly mature and he knows his duties to his house, but he's a fallible individual regardless. He's been traumatised (the death of his father and friends, him and Jessica in exile, creepy visions, many innocents dead), he's been frustrated, and he's not really an adult man yet. That he takes a somewhat resigned, cynical view of the events around him and starts slowly strolling towards a more antihero path isn't all that surprising. IMHO, loyalty to his house, his deceased father ("I have to avenge Leto !"), and Gurney's or the Fremen's unquestioning loyalty to him is what really unleashes all the darkness later on. I think a less skilled writer would present Paul as an awful and spoilt person from the outset. Herbert instead presents him as a well-educated, well-trained, thoughtful and decent kid, but tellingly, also a scared, confused and eventually frustrated kid. The hero-worship by his followers doesn't help... I'm also not surprised that, after walking towards personal murkiness or darkness for years, he eventually has a change of heart in the sequels and starts walking away from the Muad'Dib icon, back towards something closer to the real Paul. The tragic thing is that he can't undo the evil carried out in his name, or even carried out by himself (or his inaction or alibism). He is not fit to be easily forgiven for anything. You see the return of something close to the old, decent-minded Paul, even if tired and jaded. I've always considered it fascinating that he lives out his final years as an odd pacifist protester against the cult of personality built by him and his followers years ago. It's very satirical, but ultimately also very human. For all of Paul's mistakes, he wasn't some mindless dictator that never felt remorse or open disgust over his own stupid decisions and failings. I wouldn't call him a tragic hero, he isn't one, but he wasn't a cackling monster either. He never entirely lost his decency towards fellow humans, and after a short while, he realised he screwed up inexcusably and will have the deaths of innocents on his conscience forever. At least when he dies, he doesn't depart the storyline as someone unwilling to reflect on his past mistakes and actions (even warning his son about repeating them in a different manner, though he knows his warnings are futile). If there's a moral to Paul's story, it's that you shouldn't give too much power to any individual and hero-worship him or her, even if they are genuinely decent and genuinely well-intentioned people. (Paul was a decent and well-intentioned person, but look where that got him, combined with a bit of pragmatism and anger fueled by trauma.) All power must be held in check via reasonable means, otherwise it corrupts everyone entrusted with that power. If it doesn't break their ethics or morals, it can still break their willingness to do decisions that actually benefit humanity in the long run, rather than harm it. Paul's not a hero, and I've always had the impression he never wanted to be one, to anyone. Just be the son of his parents, have their respect, treat others well and gain their respect as well. Paul's a bit of an idealist in a society where idealists don't do all that well. Ironically, when he decides to use that society's more pragmatic means to achieve things, that's when he starts making his biggest mistakes that slowly snowball into something vile and terrifying. I think it's very telling that Herbert presents Paul in the most "heroic" light whenever he's doing small, seemingly minor, but decent stuff, not any grandiose stuff filled with pathos. When Paul Atreides is just Paul Atreides the kid, who cares about the people around him, whether family or subjects, he's not a hero, but he is closer to an "everyday hero", rooted in kindness and a humane apporach. Whenever he "plays the game" of cynicism, pragmatism (common in the Imperium) or tries to downplay or excuse his bad or outright evil actions and decisions, he's being self-destructive. The icon of Paul Muad'Dib grows, but the true Paul, plain old morally grey but kind-minded Paul, diminishes.
Thank you for such a thought out comment. I think Paul was very well written. Despite being such a young character at the beginning, we can see his intelligence and his depth of feeling regarding everything he has to go through. And such a thought-provoking portrayal of a leader.
Personally during my reading of Dune I didn’t really vibe with Paul, he just felt a little too close to being a Gary Stue with all the crazy abilities he has as a Bene Geseret, a Mentat not to mention a Messiah, etc. I mean show me a 15 year old boy who could literally stand feeling his hand being cooked and the flesh falling off of the bone. It wouldn’t been different if the whole Gom Jibbar had occurred later on but just from a starting point I couldn’t really believe him. I liked Paul a lot more in Messiah, he seemed much more flawed and less a badass author self-insert there. Now I’ve listened to interviews with Herbert and heard him explain the whole “Leaders should come with Labels” I think the Gary Stueness of Paul was more purposeful than I had originally realized and I think I might have been blinded to the genuine flaws in Paul just because of how hilariously evil The Harkonnens were
Yes I do think it was intentional that he was written that way, but it does make for a main character that’s hard to connect with. I agree that in Messiah he seems like a more normal character with real struggles. Also I had never heard the term Gary Stue as the masculine form of Mary Sue before, so I just learned something new!
I love paul because he made mistakes. A protagonist (not a hero) that isnt perfect? Way more relatable. After all he did its such a dark turn of events when he saw what he needed to do, but said eh nah. Leto can deal with that mess lol good vid. The real plus side is i can easily dismiss hilarious points of views when it becomes immediately clear they dont understand the story.
Definitely more relatable than some perfect hero. I hope that by people who don’t understand the story you’re referring to those who’s views are skewed by the ‘84 movie. Because it’s a lot😂
@@TiffanyRussell if you can handle the sci-fi channel budget at the time, and a couple awkward moments, absolutely. Some decent actors throughout the first 3. Which covers Paul and his kwizatz journey. The next 3 has James Mcavoy as Paul's son, its the Children of Dune section. Lots of material. Gems with rough edges, all of em.
Oh and Duke Leto Atreides and Jessica were not married. He left himself single for the possibility of a political marriage with some other House's daughter. Not surprising Paul takes after his father in that tradition. His father never married his concubine. Never had to even though he loved her because she had nowhere else to go. He could rely on her being faithful to him. Chani is roped into the same situation, though I'm sure it was insulting to her Fremen heritage, but what could she do? Poor Jessica, caught in the same situation she was still bitter about, consoles her by saying "History will call us wives." But since we the reader are reading their 'history' she is wrong. They were still referred to as concubines as the Dune history went on.
I think Jessica probably had that harder than Chani actually, because for the fremen, a man could have more than one wife, and didn’t always marry for love. But yeah, “history will remember us as wives” seems like a cheap consolation when the man you love marries someone else, or keeps himself free for marriage to someone else.
I think you really need to read at least the next 2 books to find out what Paul is. For me he starts out as a good person who want to be good and do good, like his father Duke Leto. Once he gets to Arrakis other forces come into play which force him into decisions that effect the actual destiny of humanity. That heavy responsibility forces him to take decisions that he knows will damn him in the eyes of many people. I don't want to spoil anything, but until you finish Children of Dune you cannot know what or who Paul really is. Once you get to God Emperor of Dune then the fate of humanity moves to others who take the path that even Paul could not bring himself to take. I recommend you drop whatever you are currently reading and get into the next 2 books. I also recommend you finish the whole series of 6 books though the story moves along beyond Paul and does not effect his story at all.
I totally agree with your assessment that he starts out wanting to be good, before everything starts happening. And that book one is an incomplete picture of him. I plan on finishing the Dune series, but not sure I can drop everything I’m reading at the moment. I’m trying to get through Stormlight Archive before book four in November.
@@TiffanyRussell I was only joking when I said you should drop everything and read the Dune series instead. Well half joking anyway. The rest of the books will still be there for you to read when you are ready. I hope you will review all the books in the fulness of time. Enjoy!
@@TiffanyRussell Well....Half joking, as I said :) The remaining Dune books will still be there when you are ready to read them. I do think you will enjoy them when you do read them. I for one would watch your reviews of them if and when you do any. I hear the Stormlight Archive is good though.
Paul Atreides is the personification of the Millennial Hero, just like Harry Potter but Harry tried to kill his shadow. Luke Skywalker was, for example, the Baby Boomer Hero... in the most recent trilogy, through millennial understanding, he was not that great for sure. Leto is the boomer parent, Paul is the millennial son and he discovers, just like Harry, that he has a powerful deep shadow inside of him. Harry tried to killed the shadow inside of him but Paul INTEGRATED it, used it, embraced it. Paul betrays the idealistic values of his boomer father to ascend, to do what he has to do, to survive, to a greater cause, to lead a nation. Paul Atreides is the most heroic hero of all the f**k*ng heroic heroes. He is just doing what he has to do, no idealistic delusional s**t but acceptance and courage and wisdom for integrate the shadow as the source of his concrete mundane factual power. The status game is inevitable, the power game is inevitable.
One of the biggest misconceptions that people have about the Dune Saga, is that Paul Atreides is the hero of the story. Not true at all! Paul Atreides is only present during the first three books of the series, even though he is the protagonist of the first two books the author Frank Herbert did not want the character to be viewed as a hero. If you pay careful attention to the story, Paul's actions in the first book Dune devastate the Galaxy leading to the deaths of billions. And in the end, Paul was completely unwilling to ensure the survival of humanity as a species, instead he shifts that responsibility onto his son. Frank Herbert himself once admitted, " I wrote The Dune Saga because I had this idea, that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label "may be dangerous to your health!" He also had clearly said in an interview when someone asked him what message he was trying to send, "Don't trust leaders to always be right."
Honestly, I don't think the series even has a "main hero". It has protagonists. Some do heroic things, from time to time, but often not. Some don't do anything even remotely approaching heroic or decent. Some are even protagonists in name only. But I've always felt that's rather realistic, since the series was about the fallibility of individuals as well as the fallibility of humanity.
We humans always want a hero, don’t we? And it’s hard not to see one in the main character. We can just blame the 1984 movie for most people’s misconceptions.
Thats tragic, just that tragic people can become monster. But aloa product, and if there i a hole to fill that will likely. Heroe and villains. Ther is a webtoon kubera thats, having a main charcter thats a good person but its really interesting with worldbuilding, characters, fate, ther are hindu gods who can see posible futures to a limit, that stillare human kinda. And its getting better and better th more facets are revealed. And since pretty the tart ther is talk that she might be better dead that what will be her fate due that. And it , it jut gets more tragic, its still fun, and hits later harder.
In my vision, Paul is a broken hero!He wanted to do great things, help Arrakis prosper and he freed the fremen(even though he used them against the Harkonnen).The jihad was not his fault, he didn't want it, he was against it!That's it!He was the victim of some terrible events that had been planned thousands of years before!
Paul was never meant to be a hero. That was the whole point. Frank Herbert meant him as a cautionary tale about what can happen when a charismatic leader is diefied. This point is more clearly explored in the sequels.
And Herbert did such a good job of it too! Especially showing things from the Fremen’s point of view, just how easy it can be to accept someone as your hero when they fulfill what you expect.
If you read the books, you know Paul is no hero. None of them are. The Atreides and all of those in power from the Emperor to CHOAM to the Landsraad to the Bene Gesserit are all users and manipulators and eventually betrayers. It will be interesting how well the movie goes over with NON-fans of the book. The general movie-going audience in the US in particular, loves its heroes and especially if they're underdogs. Paul will seem to fit the bill...at first. I wonder if the audience will take to Paul, not noticing the manipulations or get turned off. The only thing I can get closest to a parallel is Oliver Stone's movie Alexander about Alexander the Great. Everyone's heard of that guy, right? Moviegoers wanted to see a Gladiator Maximus type hero. Instead, they got a messy, complicated, conflicted main character whose virtues were dubious (by modern standards) and motivations were strictly self serving. Historically, director Stone probably nailed the guy. But he's not who audiences wanted to see.
Hi Druid! I think you’re absolutely right that those who have not read the book(s) want to root for Paul as the hero. It’s what we want from our stories, and main character = hero which in turn = good guy, right? But that’s not how Herbert wrote Paul. And I think if the new movie does a good job of that, some people may be unhappy.
I think that Paul is a kid who was forced into making poor decisions due to the bene gesserit using him as a means of gaining more political power, and by the time he had to start making decisions, he had set down the dark path that he never wanted to happen in the first place, thus he adapted. Honestly I feel kind of bad for him, since he never wanted to truly hurt or harm anyone, but ultimately didn't see how to avoid it. All in all, I really like Paul, and although he's no hero, I certainly don't think he's a villain. I think at worst he is a bad person with good intentions, much like most people. One of my favorite protagonists in all of story telling history hands down. Loved the video!!!
Would love your thoughts on Attack On Titan! Having read both I feel they share a lot in terms of morally ambiguous protagonists and trope subversions.
I have actually started Attack on Titan, but it’s a little hard for me to get through as I’m creeped out by zombies. And those are some pretty large zombies. But I have heard it has great character work, which is why I want to continue.
This is a great essay! One of the best I've seen about Muad'dib. He is definitely a very complex character. I think your channel is destined for greatness. Also you have very pretty eyes!
Paul Atreides's character has more in common with Darth Vader, than with Luke Skywalker.
Hm, interesting take. Both Anakin and Luke were given choices and were responsible for the choices they made, whereas I think Paul’s choices were a little more forced upon him.
I judge the character by his actions and it hard to see him as a tragic hero.
@@TiffanyRussell Paul Atreides is the personification of the Millennial Hero, just like Harry Potter but Harry tried to kill his shadow. Luke Skywalker was, for example, the Baby Boomer Hero... in the most recent trilogy, through millennial understanding, he was not that great for sure. Leto is the boomer parent, Paul is the millennial son and he discovers, just like Harry, that he has a powerful deep shadow inside of him. Harry tried to killed the shadow inside of him but Paul INTEGRATED it, used it, embraced it. Paul betrays the idealistic values of his boomer father to ascend, to do what he has to do, to survive, to a greater cause, to lead a nation. Paul Atreides is the most heroic hero of all the f**k*ng heroic heroes. He is just doing what he has to do, no idealistic delusional s**t but acceptance and courage and wisdom for integrate the shadow as the source of his concrete mundane factual power. The status game is inevitable, the power game is inevitable.
Yes. Because Paul has more in common with Anakin Skywalker than with Luke Skywalker.
LOVE your take on "The Chosen One" angle on the story. Herbert has a very unique take on it, and not alot of people pick up on that. Thanks for posting this video :)
Thanks for watching Jonathan! I agree that Herbert’s take is unique and for the purpose of making people think about their heroes.
Paul is a tragic character. His family was done a great injustice. Paul also has incredible powers to rectify that and seek revenge. I think most of us would have done the same. That revenge also happens to lead to billions of deaths, and Paul didn’t really seem to care much about that. That’s where Paul becomes indefensible
Very tragic. Basically forced into there being no happy choice for him.
I'm writing an essay on dune and am looking at videos for ideas and sources. I think that you brought up some really good points about him being a grey character and not a typical hero. I'm about to watch your other video on Paul and if you know any other good takes on his character I'd love to watch them! Great video!
Thank you so much! I actually don’t know of other good character videos, which I started doing these in the first place.
I’m so glad it could help your essay!
Paul Atreides is the personification of the Millennial Hero, just like Harry Potter but Harry tried to kill his shadow. Luke Skywalker was, for example, the Baby Boomer Hero... in the most recent trilogy, through millennial understanding, he was not that great for sure. Leto is the boomer parent, Paul is the millennial son and he discovers, just like Harry, that he has a powerful deep shadow inside of him. Harry tried to killed the shadow inside of him but Paul INTEGRATED it, used it, embraced it. Paul betrays the idealistic values of his boomer father to ascend, to do what he has to do, to survive, to a greater cause, to lead a nation. Paul Atreides is the most heroic hero of all the f**k*ng heroic heroes. He is just doing what he has to do, no idealistic delusional s**t but acceptance and courage and wisdom for integrate the shadow as the source of his concrete mundane factual power. The status game is inevitable, the power game is inevitable.
i swear to god the Emperor of mankind in 40k is basically Paul and Leto the 2nd combined into one character.
Amazing video! Loved it. You’re incredibly concise and thoughtful. 🌸 can’t wait to see more content!
Thank you Juan Pablo! I’m glad you enjoyed it
Killer analysis. Manufactured indeed. BG breeding program + BG skills + Ginaz swordmaster training + mentat training + Atreides statecraft + prescient dreams + Kynes' approval + the Missionary Protectiva myth x the spice agony = KH. Paul can now take revenge but knows it will transform himself and the Atreides reputation from respect to jihad level dread.
Yes! And what decisions to have to make when it seems like there is no “right” choice
This is great. Thank you so much for making this
Of course is not a hero. He is just trying to survive and fighting for power, like the other characters.
The fremen might disagree with you. But yes, as much as we like the idea of a heroic figure, Paul simply isn’t.
I love how Dune subverts the whole hero messiah concept. Herbert's message is that heroes and charismatic leaders are bad, and that's partly what Paul and Leto II are trying to impart. In a way, they are being a hero by being a villain, if you really believe the future they foresaw was unavoidable. It's generally accepted there was no other way. Or is it more heroic to let the race suffer and die rather than commit atrocities themselves. I don't think he's trying to be a hero.
I love a moment in the first book, with Paul struggling with what he'll have to do, how the fremen are beginning to idolize him, how his mother and the Bene G have been controlling him and everything. He thinks 'i could stop this now, I have a chance, if I kill everyone here', including his mother. It not only shows him realizing what his future holds, what his being a savior will lead to, and how he considered massacre as a solution.
It's a really interesting take, and not at all a typical story!.
So far I have only read the first two books, but even in the first while he’s still a teen, you can see his internal struggle.
Nothing about his journey or the decisions he has to make is easy.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the next book in the series. You are really insightful in this video, but the second book really shakes things up!
Thank you Alex! I’m looking forward to reading the next one and making that video. I’m glad you enjoyed it.
I don't agree with the analisys of the relationship with Chani. It doesn't take into consideration his social position in a feudal society and his condition as a Kwisatz Haderach. Given this, she had the best ending they where allowed to have. But to understand that is a must reading the first four books
I don't even see you needing to read more than the first book to get this part. Also there was more than OP let on in the relationship building moments, like when Paul asked her to carry his water rings, and how she was to teach him their ways, so they were always together, and she was the first teacher of his that was also close to his age. Sure Herbert didn't put that much effort into it, as his specialty is more world building sense, but lets not dismiss that he did put effort into their budding romance.
Hi Gus, Chani’s “ending” that I referred to is only based on the first book, where things with the love of her youth don’t end the way she may have wished. But you’re right that their society and what Paul is plays a role in their relationship, and that it continues into future books. Thank you for watching and commenting!
TheLazySamurai you’re right that the romance was there, I think my disappointment came more from it feeling like insta love. The characters were written for each other, and it automatically worked out for them, which is not how real relationships work. I like that you bring up the water rings, that’s an important piece.
@@TiffanyRussell thank you for replaying!
Gus Ngregg of course! I wouldn’t post these if I didn’t want to have discussions
Paul is as much a victim as a hero. In many of his movies, Clint Eastwood is portrayed as a victim and maybe a villain too. In the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, Blondy is a mass murderer, a person condemned to death, and the hero, of sorts. He is no better than the others, but he is more cunning and a better shot. The way he is portrayed we gain sympathy for Blondy, but we don't love him. Paul in Dune is a similar character. We want to love him, but in the end, maybe not. I think this is why Frank Hurbert ended the book with Jessica's speech as written. Our desire is to love Paul, but in the end, we must step back and evaluate our attachment to him.
I think you’re definitely right. He was largely the product of breeding, training, and his environment, and we are given the first half of the book to see him grow and suffer, and gain sympathy for him. Then in the second half we have to watch what he becomes.
I know this is two years late, this came up I think because of Dune two being out, but a question about Chani in this book. Personally the loss of Leto II is tragic, but not overly developed. As to the marriage though, it always seemed like she understood the situation. Ultimately this is a kind of odd melding of capitalism and feudalism in this future. If you understand how these things work, you can adapt a kind of utility about certain ends. If nothing else, the Fremen due seem to be a very utilitarian people in their approach.
Yes, and I believe Chani understands that. The Fremen don’t always marry for love, but while Paul was there, and not the Duke, it could’ve been a possibility.
Book Chani is able to accept the part of Paul she gets to have.
I think Paul is a human who makes some very questionable desicions. Diversion away from your typical chosen one trope is a good thing, I like how it's done here. Poor Chani though, seriously, thanks for the emphasis on that haha.
Thank you, I agree that it’s nice to have a different take on the chosen one. And yes, poor Chani!
The point about Paul’s faults and decisions, as questionable as they are, is one of the key themes of Frank Herbert’s Dune series. That theme being beware of heroes, humans are fallible, examine one’s own premises, and above all the dangers of charismatic leaders and fanaticism.
Lee you are definitely right, and anyone who reads the books can see that. But for people who have only seen the movie, he seems like a very heroic chosen one.
Guys , Dune the First book is not enough to judge Paul Atréides. To have a complete vision of his arc. You have to Add
Dune Messiah
Children’s of Dune
And even the God emperor of Dune
By the way, Paul remained true to Chani and his enemies knew that chani was the only way to get to him ( Dune Messiah)
Hi Jawad! Yes, only reading book 1 gives a partial picture of him. But for the people who have only read the first book, they can still enjoy this video!
Tiffany Russell
Of course!
The arguments made her are valid! and Paul at the end of book 1 has no room to maneuver
It’s true, he is rather stuck between what is expected of him, and what he thinks he must do.
He's not good nor bad, he's a necessity.
A necessity maybe, but definitely used
he's basiclly like the god emperor in 40k the guy wasn't good or bad he was a neccessary evil.
In later books it is explicitly stated that the Atreides genealogy traces back the House of Atreus in Greek mythology. The House of Atreus is cursed by the gods and is the most dysfunctional family in Greek mythology.
That is a fun fact, thank you for sharing!
@@TiffanyRussell you're welcome. I think it's in God Emperor of Dune? Leto II gives his genealogy. I just finished the last of Frank Herbert's Dune books. They aren't for everyone, but I'm glad I finished them. I think Frank Herbert has just tied Philip K. Dick for my favorite writer.
@@dustinneely totally agree that he is a very good author, but not for everyone.
Paul is 100% a hero, Herbert just thinks heroes are inherently bad.
Samuel Button ooh good reply. I guess your (or the author’s) definition of “hero” matters here.
@@TiffanyRussell You've committed heresy against the Mahdi, Muad'dib. What say you in your defense?
@@holysayingsofrobin4055 and what heresy are we talking about? (Not denying it)
@@TiffanyRussell By denouncing Usul. The pillar what supports Dune and the fremen way. Shai-halud frowns upon infidelity. Ya hya chouhada Muad'Dib!
Paul doesn't marry Chani. He does enter into a political marriage of convenience to cement his right to the emperorship. That was normal to Paul. His father never married his mother. His father said he may need to married a royal from another house.. So that's why he never married Lady Jessica. This is in the next book Dune Messiah.... His wife gets treated like a squatter. Everyone in the known universe sees Chani as his true mate. Paul even tells his wife they both know who his real wife is (Chani). Paul is not very nice to Princess Irulan. The conversation when he tells his wife she can take a lover. But don't bring any babies back to his house. Just shows how cold Paul has become in his 12 years as emperor. But Paul and Chani's story is very tragic. I actually cried at the end of Dune Messiah.
Messiah is far more tragic than the first book. In the first one you can see how Paul might develop, but there’s more room for hope, then by the time the second book comes around, we see what the pressure of his role has done to him.
And that does include how he treats the women in his life.
I've read the books and seen the movies, and Paul strikes me as a human being, who is both good and bad. In this way, Frank Herbert achieved his ultimate objective: that all leaders, even the heroes, should come with warning labels. I actually liked the end of Sci-fi's Children of Dune best: the ring as a reminder that all leaders are just human.
You’re so right. Paul, in addition to being a normal leader, was also seen as the religious leader and military leader, adding even more pressure, and putting him on an even higher pedestal for the fremen. But still human.
Thanks for watching!
@@TiffanyRussell and don't forget, he is only 15 in the novel. I wasn't terribly smart at 15, even though I thought I was.
Right? Even with all his training, that is so young
@@TiffanyRussell right. Youth can be both an advantage and a flaw. It adds to the richness of the character. Making him both heroic and untouchably virtuous would detract from the story.
@@theresag.1000 I agree. One of the best things about youth is there passion for things.
Great stuff!
Herbert states from the first moment that we are flawed and only reason can overcome animal instinct, which is a conscious choice requiring discipline. Paul is human, that's all, Kwisatz Haderach or not, and that's how he introduces Paul. Paul was born into an extraordinary position and his challenge is to live up to it or not, just like all of us. Are we heros when we suck it up and face the cards we are dealt? Can you imagine being Alia?
Hi Kelly! I do like that we meet Paul as a human, and slowly learn more about him as the story progresses.
Hero for facing life? I don’t think so. And no, I don’t want to imagine it, being Alia would be SO HARD!
@@TiffanyRussell Paul's journey seems very Jungian. He can see into that dark place no one dares to look (our shadow), follows a truth only he can see (his true self), and fulfils his destiny (becomes whole), ugly as that might leave him to everyone else, and the world is better for it (well at least the Harkonens are gone). I'm pretty sure that's the basics of Individuation. But Herbert is deliberate in his use of the dead father motif, so he poses Paul as a hero figure and begs us to examine this hero thing -- it does take great courage to embrace your shadow and learn to both love and embrace your faults, and in that way we are all called to Paul's .. oh gosh, it might be a hero's quest after all, an inner one.
Lol! Love how you led us to the hero’s journey in this comment. I’ve heard so many different opinions on Paul and his role, I think it’s good to question everything about him and compare him to ourselves and our modern leaders.
Great Analysis of Paul.
Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Killer analysis! Yet I see Paul as a tragic figure, one with the makings of a hero who gets railroaded into other people's power grabs. For all of his powers, he is caught up in the crush of humanity's subconscious movement. Once he embraces the messiah role, he is overwhelmed with the destruction and hypocrisy around it, and struggling with that defines him from there on. Even as it's started, he feels crushed by it:
"I have seen a friend become a worshiper... Muad'Dib from whom all blessings flow, he thought, and it was the bitterest thought of his life."
He's just overwhelmed and trying to extricate himself; taking on the unconscious human hungers and hierarchies is beyond him. What is asked of him, what makes a good person while being called a Madhi is beyond his capability, and I think the book is showing us that it's beyond anyone. No human can ever truly be a messiah.
great analysis! please read Messiah, Children of Dune, and God Emperor next! Please please please--I can't wait to hear how your views of Paul might change!
Thank you! I plan on it eventually, right now I’m on a readthrough of the Stormlight archive. I’m so glad you enjoyed this!
In the end, Paul was just a coward. He refused to undergo the metamorphosis to start along the Golden Path and ensure the survival of the human race. He feared the repercussions of such a choice.
I have only read the first two books so far, so I have not seen a point where Paul seems cowardly. Although even by Messiah, he’s not forging ahead quite so fearlessly as in the first book.
@@TiffanyRussell Book 3 and 4 definitely clear it up.
Easy to say, but you would do it, you, the Golden Path ?
Paul's just a man, man.
Leto II was more than that.
@@thomasshady6470 No. I don't think anyone could really go through the absolute hell Leto II went through. And Paul even stated that he didn't want that for his only son.
It's easy to judge from an outside perspective. But I'm sure that if we where in Paul's position, under his circumstances, most of us would've done the same.
Dune is a very fantastic story.
I don't think he's a villain, he was forced into so many situations and he tried to find and do the best in those situations despite so many people trying to force things their way and use. Him
A villain never starts out as a villain. Not that I’m saying Paul is one, but he didn’t always feel like he had a choice.
I disagree on the point in ur conclusion when you said he “has done everything he set out to do, he accomplished his goals he fulfilled the prophecies, he has done everything he was supposed to do”. It’s a very small point of disagreement but I feel that it ignores his continuous fear through the book of the religious war spreading in his name, which he unquestionably failed at doing.
Maybe he can see that he failed in that respect so he is preparing himself to become the villain by making more questionable decisions. Or maybe he can see there will be a point in the future that he can turn things around again. Idk I haven’t read past the first book so thes theories are pretty half baked.
Really loved the video tho!! Great work!
Ok, you’re right, he didn’t do everything yet.
But as for the short term goal of leading the fremen and deposing the emperor, he accomplished these by the end of the first book. I think that’s a pretty solid way to set up the next one.
Thanks for watching!
The thing with the Bene Gesserit's manipulations is that it's all a fiction anyway. Paul's arguably more knowledgeable about this than most. (I've never had the impression he ever believed in the KH nonsense, he just decided to take a pragmatic, fairly cynical turn, and use it to his advantage.) Even Paul's mother is tempted into near-superstitious awe over the possibility of Paul being the KH, when all Paul wants, deep down, is to be respected by his mother as her son, and not some prophet or false, deified figure. The tension between the two isn't because Paul's an ungrateful brat who blames her too much, it's there because he just wants to be a (relatively) ordinary man and son of his parents. He's responsible, he's fairly mature and he knows his duties to his house, but he's a fallible individual regardless. He's been traumatised (the death of his father and friends, him and Jessica in exile, creepy visions, many innocents dead), he's been frustrated, and he's not really an adult man yet. That he takes a somewhat resigned, cynical view of the events around him and starts slowly strolling towards a more antihero path isn't all that surprising. IMHO, loyalty to his house, his deceased father ("I have to avenge Leto !"), and Gurney's or the Fremen's unquestioning loyalty to him is what really unleashes all the darkness later on.
I think a less skilled writer would present Paul as an awful and spoilt person from the outset. Herbert instead presents him as a well-educated, well-trained, thoughtful and decent kid, but tellingly, also a scared, confused and eventually frustrated kid. The hero-worship by his followers doesn't help... I'm also not surprised that, after walking towards personal murkiness or darkness for years, he eventually has a change of heart in the sequels and starts walking away from the Muad'Dib icon, back towards something closer to the real Paul. The tragic thing is that he can't undo the evil carried out in his name, or even carried out by himself (or his inaction or alibism). He is not fit to be easily forgiven for anything. You see the return of something close to the old, decent-minded Paul, even if tired and jaded. I've always considered it fascinating that he lives out his final years as an odd pacifist protester against the cult of personality built by him and his followers years ago. It's very satirical, but ultimately also very human. For all of Paul's mistakes, he wasn't some mindless dictator that never felt remorse or open disgust over his own stupid decisions and failings. I wouldn't call him a tragic hero, he isn't one, but he wasn't a cackling monster either. He never entirely lost his decency towards fellow humans, and after a short while, he realised he screwed up inexcusably and will have the deaths of innocents on his conscience forever. At least when he dies, he doesn't depart the storyline as someone unwilling to reflect on his past mistakes and actions (even warning his son about repeating them in a different manner, though he knows his warnings are futile).
If there's a moral to Paul's story, it's that you shouldn't give too much power to any individual and hero-worship him or her, even if they are genuinely decent and genuinely well-intentioned people. (Paul was a decent and well-intentioned person, but look where that got him, combined with a bit of pragmatism and anger fueled by trauma.) All power must be held in check via reasonable means, otherwise it corrupts everyone entrusted with that power. If it doesn't break their ethics or morals, it can still break their willingness to do decisions that actually benefit humanity in the long run, rather than harm it.
Paul's not a hero, and I've always had the impression he never wanted to be one, to anyone. Just be the son of his parents, have their respect, treat others well and gain their respect as well. Paul's a bit of an idealist in a society where idealists don't do all that well. Ironically, when he decides to use that society's more pragmatic means to achieve things, that's when he starts making his biggest mistakes that slowly snowball into something vile and terrifying. I think it's very telling that Herbert presents Paul in the most "heroic" light whenever he's doing small, seemingly minor, but decent stuff, not any grandiose stuff filled with pathos. When Paul Atreides is just Paul Atreides the kid, who cares about the people around him, whether family or subjects, he's not a hero, but he is closer to an "everyday hero", rooted in kindness and a humane apporach. Whenever he "plays the game" of cynicism, pragmatism (common in the Imperium) or tries to downplay or excuse his bad or outright evil actions and decisions, he's being self-destructive. The icon of Paul Muad'Dib grows, but the true Paul, plain old morally grey but kind-minded Paul, diminishes.
Thank you for such a thought out comment.
I think Paul was very well written. Despite being such a young character at the beginning, we can see his intelligence and his depth of feeling regarding everything he has to go through.
And such a thought-provoking portrayal of a leader.
dune is the phrase "embrace the suck" made books, everyone sucks and there is no happy ending, fantastic dystopic scifi tho
Personally during my reading of Dune I didn’t really vibe with Paul, he just felt a little too close to being a Gary Stue with all the crazy abilities he has as a Bene Geseret, a Mentat not to mention a Messiah, etc. I mean show me a 15 year old boy who could literally stand feeling his hand being cooked and the flesh falling off of the bone. It wouldn’t been different if the whole Gom Jibbar had occurred later on but just from a starting point I couldn’t really believe him. I liked Paul a lot more in Messiah, he seemed much more flawed and less a badass author self-insert there.
Now I’ve listened to interviews with Herbert and heard him explain the whole “Leaders should come with Labels” I think the Gary Stueness of Paul was more purposeful than I had originally realized and I think I might have been blinded to the genuine flaws in Paul just because of how hilariously evil The Harkonnens were
Yes I do think it was intentional that he was written that way, but it does make for a main character that’s hard to connect with.
I agree that in Messiah he seems like a more normal character with real struggles.
Also I had never heard the term Gary Stue as the masculine form of Mary Sue before, so I just learned something new!
I love paul because he made mistakes. A protagonist (not a hero) that isnt perfect? Way more relatable. After all he did its such a dark turn of events when he saw what he needed to do, but said eh nah. Leto can deal with that mess lol good vid. The real plus side is i can easily dismiss hilarious points of views when it becomes immediately clear they dont understand the story.
Definitely more relatable than some perfect hero.
I hope that by people who don’t understand the story you’re referring to those who’s views are skewed by the ‘84 movie. Because it’s a lot😂
@@TiffanyRussell mini series had its flaws but it was way better than david lynch's imo. Closer to the books but pretty low budget.
I’ve never actually watched the mini series, would you say it’s worth the time?
@@TiffanyRussell if you can handle the sci-fi channel budget at the time, and a couple awkward moments, absolutely. Some decent actors throughout the first 3. Which covers Paul and his kwizatz journey. The next 3 has James Mcavoy as Paul's son, its the Children of Dune section. Lots of material. Gems with rough edges, all of em.
Here ya go. Its hard to find unless you want the DVD th-cam.com/video/BL5FRUPP8PU/w-d-xo.html
Oh and Duke Leto Atreides and Jessica were not married. He left himself single for the possibility of a political marriage with some other House's daughter. Not surprising Paul takes after his father in that tradition. His father never married his concubine. Never had to even though he loved her because she had nowhere else to go. He could rely on her being faithful to him. Chani is roped into the same situation, though I'm sure it was insulting to her Fremen heritage, but what could she do? Poor Jessica, caught in the same situation she was still bitter about, consoles her by saying "History will call us wives." But since we the reader are reading their 'history' she is wrong. They were still referred to as concubines as the Dune history went on.
I think Jessica probably had that harder than Chani actually, because for the fremen, a man could have more than one wife, and didn’t always marry for love. But yeah, “history will remember us as wives” seems like a cheap consolation when the man you love marries someone else, or keeps himself free for marriage to someone else.
I think you really need to read at least the next 2 books to find out what Paul is. For me he starts out as a good person who want to be good and do good, like his father Duke Leto. Once he gets to Arrakis other forces come into play which force him into decisions that effect the actual destiny of humanity. That heavy responsibility forces him to take decisions that he knows will damn him in the eyes of many people. I don't want to spoil anything, but until you finish Children of Dune you cannot know what or who Paul really is. Once you get to God Emperor of Dune then the fate of humanity moves to others who take the path that even Paul could not bring himself to take. I recommend you drop whatever you are currently reading and get into the next 2 books. I also recommend you finish the whole series of 6 books though the story moves along beyond Paul and does not effect his story at all.
I totally agree with your assessment that he starts out wanting to be good, before everything starts happening. And that book one is an incomplete picture of him.
I plan on finishing the Dune series, but not sure I can drop everything I’m reading at the moment. I’m trying to get through Stormlight Archive before book four in November.
@@TiffanyRussell I was only joking when I said you should drop everything and read the Dune series instead. Well half joking anyway. The rest of the books will still be there for you to read when you are ready. I hope you will review all the books in the fulness of time. Enjoy!
Oh I get it, it’s hard to convey a joking tone through text. Believe me, it’s tempting to jump on ahead to the other Dune books
@@TiffanyRussell Well....Half joking, as I said :) The remaining Dune books will still be there when you are ready to read them. I do think you will enjoy them when you do read them. I for one would watch your reviews of them if and when you do any. I hear the Stormlight Archive is good though.
It is good! I know The fact that they are so hyped up is a turn off for some people, but I think they’re worth the read
Paul Atreides motive almost reminds me of Eren Yeager 🤔
I started Attack on Titan but never finished it. I could see him having the appearance of a hero though.
Paul Atreides is the personification of the Millennial Hero, just like Harry Potter but Harry tried to kill his shadow. Luke Skywalker was, for example, the Baby Boomer Hero... in the most recent trilogy, through millennial understanding, he was not that great for sure. Leto is the boomer parent, Paul is the millennial son and he discovers, just like Harry, that he has a powerful deep shadow inside of him. Harry tried to killed the shadow inside of him but Paul INTEGRATED it, used it, embraced it. Paul betrays the idealistic values of his boomer father to ascend, to do what he has to do, to survive, to a greater cause, to lead a nation. Paul Atreides is the most heroic hero of all the f**k*ng heroic heroes. He is just doing what he has to do, no idealistic delusional s**t but acceptance and courage and wisdom for integrate the shadow as the source of his concrete mundane factual power. The status game is inevitable, the power game is inevitable.
You are the only person I have heard to take this angle. The Fremen agree!
@@TiffanyRussell This is how life works on a root level.
One of the biggest misconceptions that people have about the Dune Saga, is that Paul Atreides is the hero of the story. Not true at all!
Paul Atreides is only present during the first three books of the series, even though he is the protagonist of the first two books the author Frank Herbert did not want the character to be viewed as a hero.
If you pay careful attention to the story, Paul's actions in the first book Dune devastate the Galaxy leading to the deaths of billions. And in the end, Paul was completely unwilling to ensure the survival of humanity as a species, instead he shifts that responsibility onto his son.
Frank Herbert himself once admitted, " I wrote The Dune Saga because I had this idea, that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label "may be dangerous to your health!"
He also had clearly said in an interview when someone asked him what message he was trying to send, "Don't trust leaders to always be right."
Honestly, I don't think the series even has a "main hero". It has protagonists. Some do heroic things, from time to time, but often not. Some don't do anything even remotely approaching heroic or decent. Some are even protagonists in name only. But I've always felt that's rather realistic, since the series was about the fallibility of individuals as well as the fallibility of humanity.
We humans always want a hero, don’t we? And it’s hard not to see one in the main character. We can just blame the 1984 movie for most people’s misconceptions.
Thats tragic, just that tragic people can become monster. But aloa product, and if there i a hole to fill that will likely. Heroe and villains.
Ther is a webtoon kubera thats, having a main charcter thats a good person but its really interesting with worldbuilding, characters, fate, ther are hindu gods who can see posible futures to a limit, that stillare human kinda. And its getting better and better th more facets are revealed. And since pretty the tart ther is talk that she might be better dead that what will be her fate due that. And it , it jut gets more tragic, its still fun, and hits later harder.
That webtoon may very well be based off of Dune and the abilities described in it.
*spoiler*
Wait until you get to the second book with the jihad and him voluntarily comparing himself to hitler and genghis Khan
Since publishing this video, I have read Messiah.
He was definitely taking a deep, honest, and harsh look at himself.
Paul is a tragic character for shore
In my vision, Paul is a broken hero!He wanted to do great things, help Arrakis prosper and he freed the fremen(even though he used them against the Harkonnen).The jihad was not his fault, he didn't want it, he was against it!That's it!He was the victim of some terrible events that had been planned thousands of years before!
Paul was never meant to be a hero. That was the whole point. Frank Herbert meant him as a cautionary tale about what can happen when a charismatic leader is diefied. This point is more clearly explored in the sequels.
And Herbert did such a good job of it too! Especially showing things from the Fremen’s point of view, just how easy it can be to accept someone as your hero when they fulfill what you expect.
Good content ☘️
Informative video 🌿
Unique🌾
Keep it up sister 🌼
I am your new subscriber 🌻
Thank you book island! I will check out one of your videos too!
He's an Anti-Hero imo
The woke is strong with this one.
If you read the books, you know Paul is no hero. None of them are. The Atreides and all of those in power from the Emperor to CHOAM to the Landsraad to the Bene Gesserit are all users and manipulators and eventually betrayers. It will be interesting how well the movie goes over with NON-fans of the book. The general movie-going audience in the US in particular, loves its heroes and especially if they're underdogs. Paul will seem to fit the bill...at first. I wonder if the audience will take to Paul, not noticing the manipulations or get turned off. The only thing I can get closest to a parallel is Oliver Stone's movie Alexander about Alexander the Great. Everyone's heard of that guy, right? Moviegoers wanted to see a Gladiator Maximus type hero. Instead, they got a messy, complicated, conflicted main character whose virtues were dubious (by modern standards) and motivations were strictly self serving. Historically, director Stone probably nailed the guy. But he's not who audiences wanted to see.
Hi Druid! I think you’re absolutely right that those who have not read the book(s) want to root for Paul as the hero. It’s what we want from our stories, and main character = hero which in turn = good guy, right? But that’s not how Herbert wrote Paul. And I think if the new movie does a good job of that, some people may be unhappy.
He isn't a villain either
I think that Paul is a kid who was forced into making poor decisions due to the bene gesserit using him as a means of gaining more political power, and by the time he had to start making decisions, he had set down the dark path that he never wanted to happen in the first place, thus he adapted. Honestly I feel kind of bad for him, since he never wanted to truly hurt or harm anyone, but ultimately didn't see how to avoid it. All in all, I really like Paul, and although he's no hero, I certainly don't think he's a villain. I think at worst he is a bad person with good intentions, much like most people. One of my favorite protagonists in all of story telling history hands down. Loved the video!!!
He was absolutely forced into poor decisions. What choice was he really given?
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed!
And your no babe....
The only problem with paul is he is gen Z
How is being gen z a problem?😂 I know some pretty decent ones.
Would love your thoughts on Attack On Titan! Having read both I feel they share a lot in terms of morally ambiguous protagonists and trope subversions.
I have actually started Attack on Titan, but it’s a little hard for me to get through as I’m creeped out by zombies. And those are some pretty large zombies.
But I have heard it has great character work, which is why I want to continue.