Let's be clear. What is being talked about here is the Charismatic part of the evangelical spectrum, and is exactly why I left all of that behind 30 years ago. You cannot do the "God told me this about you" thing in a non-Charismatic, word-centred or conservative church. Anyone who uses this on you to manipulate you or to shut down your reasoned objections is to be avoided, as is any church which fails to take action in such situations.
Totally agree with this statement. I would go on to say beware of any church that is not cessationist or doesn't at least question any ideas of continuationism and prophetic gifts. I was in a connect group with about twenty other church members once and I dared to challenge these ideas. The mood got very dark and I was shutdown immediately. That's when you realize that these ideas are actually attached to the identities of the people who espouse them, and you see the real individual come out when you challenge them. This was the moment I knew that there was something very disturbing about the culture of the church I had been a member of, and it rocked my faith to the core. I can now see how the idea of gifts, tongues, and prophecy can be very attractive to those individuals who are in the dark triad personality spectrum. Most of them probably don't even understand why they are drawn to it. I liken it to predators being attracted to good feeding grounds where vulnerable prey are walking in unsuspecting. Give a predator a method to fool or control its prey and it will use it every time.
I think conservative, non charismatic evangelicalism is attractive to people with narcissistic tendancies as well. It must make some people feel very special to say "people like me are the true invisible church" or "people not like me are reprobate". I think the language people use to describe themselves is telling, "spirit-filled" is often a euphemism for Pentecostal, but "bible-believing" is just as often a euphemism for baptist/reformed which is an interpretation of Christianity that can argued for but not the only interpretation that follows the bible. Maybe the healthiest (perhaps even truest) forms of Christianity are ones where there's room for grace towards people who are not like you.
I come from both, the last being a conservative bible based church. Covert narcissism can be present in any church context. It's not obvious , which makes it more dangerous. It can lead to gaslighting and other mental abuse. The wise thing to do , is be on your guard especially when flattery and praise is given. They may appear to be on your side. Wolves in sheep's clothing.
First of all, I need to know where I can get a pair of those slippers for my husband, because he would love them. Secondly, great discussion on the dark triad personality type in Christian contexts. These types alienate people from God through their subtle (or often not subtle) evil behaviour. If I hadn’t had such a radical encounter with God myself I would have doubted the truth of Christianity from how I’ve seen people behave in church, especially since I’ve met kinder and more honest witches than some of the professing Christians. Sometimes I have more hope for the people of the world than I do for the people in narcissistic churches.
Thank you for the compliment on my slippers... I think they were from M&S. Yep - I'm releasing the follow up video this evening about how to spot the less obvious nasty characters.
I would imagine one could actually trace this sort of behaviour all the way back to the early days of the church. Even if you look at something like the sacrament of holy orders in the early Catholic church, you find the hierarchy of "priesthood" bestowed only on men who were considered "anointed" by God to carry on the apostolic tradition. Looking back it's quite obvious now that this attracted a lot of individuals with abnormal psychological issues. The grandiosity of some of the church leaders in our history has been absolutely ridiculous. It always amazes me that some of the greatest wisdom also came from the most humble of early church leadership (Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, et al). Most were cloistered monks or simple priests, but the ones who thirsted for power became Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes. The entire system of holy orders became very Machiavellian. I think the only way to avoid these sorts of things happening in the modern church is to do away with hierarchal orders and leadership positions completely and make every member of the church community an equal. We should only be following one man after all - Christ. I don't need someone to tell me how to do that, I can just read about it, and imitate it in my own life, to the best of my ability.
A question I have is, how many bishops does the C of E actually require? It seems bonkers there are 100s in Britain - are the increasing appointments for the individual or for the people?
Let's be clear. What is being talked about here is the Charismatic part of the evangelical spectrum, and is exactly why I left all of that behind 30 years ago. You cannot do the "God told me this about you" thing in a non-Charismatic, word-centred or conservative church. Anyone who uses this on you to manipulate you or to shut down your reasoned objections is to be avoided, as is any church which fails to take action in such situations.
@@PeterHedditch The dark triad exists in the normal church too, it's just more prevelent there.
Totally agree with this statement. I would go on to say beware of any church that is not cessationist or doesn't at least question any ideas of continuationism and prophetic gifts. I was in a connect group with about twenty other church members once and I dared to challenge these ideas. The mood got very dark and I was shutdown immediately. That's when you realize that these ideas are actually attached to the identities of the people who espouse them, and you see the real individual come out when you challenge them. This was the moment I knew that there was something very disturbing about the culture of the church I had been a member of, and it rocked my faith to the core. I can now see how the idea of gifts, tongues, and prophecy can be very attractive to those individuals who are in the dark triad personality spectrum. Most of them probably don't even understand why they are drawn to it. I liken it to predators being attracted to good feeding grounds where vulnerable prey are walking in unsuspecting. Give a predator a method to fool or control its prey and it will use it every time.
I was just about to type up the same thought. Good evangelical churches are Bible based and aren’t “hearing from God”.
I think conservative, non charismatic evangelicalism is attractive to people with narcissistic tendancies as well. It must make some people feel very special to say "people like me are the true invisible church" or "people not like me are reprobate".
I think the language people use to describe themselves is telling, "spirit-filled" is often a euphemism for Pentecostal, but "bible-believing" is just as often a euphemism for baptist/reformed which is an interpretation of Christianity that can argued for but not the only interpretation that follows the bible. Maybe the healthiest (perhaps even truest) forms of Christianity are ones where there's room for grace towards people who are not like you.
I come from both, the last being a conservative bible based church. Covert narcissism can be present in any church context. It's not obvious , which makes it more dangerous. It can lead to gaslighting and other mental abuse. The wise thing to do , is be on your guard especially when flattery and praise is given. They may appear to be on your side. Wolves in sheep's clothing.
First of all, I need to know where I can get a pair of those slippers for my husband, because he would love them.
Secondly, great discussion on the dark triad personality type in Christian contexts. These types alienate people from God through their subtle (or often not subtle) evil behaviour. If I hadn’t had such a radical encounter with God myself I would have doubted the truth of Christianity from how I’ve seen people behave in church, especially since I’ve met kinder and more honest witches than some of the professing Christians. Sometimes I have more hope for the people of the world than I do for the people in narcissistic churches.
Thank you for the compliment on my slippers... I think they were from M&S. Yep - I'm releasing the follow up video this evening about how to spot the less obvious nasty characters.
@ ♥️
I would imagine one could actually trace this sort of behaviour all the way back to the early days of the church. Even if you look at something like the sacrament of holy orders in the early Catholic church, you find the hierarchy of "priesthood" bestowed only on men who were considered "anointed" by God to carry on the apostolic tradition. Looking back it's quite obvious now that this attracted a lot of individuals with abnormal psychological issues. The grandiosity of some of the church leaders in our history has been absolutely ridiculous. It always amazes me that some of the greatest wisdom also came from the most humble of early church leadership (Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, et al). Most were cloistered monks or simple priests, but the ones who thirsted for power became Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes. The entire system of holy orders became very Machiavellian. I think the only way to avoid these sorts of things happening in the modern church is to do away with hierarchal orders and leadership positions completely and make every member of the church community an equal. We should only be following one man after all - Christ. I don't need someone to tell me how to do that, I can just read about it, and imitate it in my own life, to the best of my ability.
A question I have is, how many bishops does the C of E actually require? It seems bonkers there are 100s in Britain - are the increasing appointments for the individual or for the people?
The children of evangelical parents could have told you this.
What do you mean?