Hi Sam, I totally get where you have come from. I was part of a couple of evangelical churches for twenty years. The promise of revival yes was totally being amplified in prayer meetings, House groups & bible weeks away. I fell for it too. They were preaching that this huge wave of revival was imminent. Now this was in the late 1990’s-early 2000’s. What happened? Well nothing. It was all a false promise. I started questioning all of this eventually and the response I had was unbelievable! I was told to OBEY the leaders not question them and apparently I was BOLSHY for even questioning this. What I was finding was if that you didn’t tow the party line you just didn’t fit anymore. I kept seeing more and more nonsense. I remember A really good guy we were friends with at church at the time quit his job to be Caretaker at a big evangelical church in East Sussex we were members of that church of. He was so exited about it. A few months later I met him and he looked depressed. I asked him what was wrong? He said I have seen this church in a different light. It’s all about BUSINESS and I am treated like something they have scraped of their shoe from the leaders! Needless to say he quit his job there. I am still bumping into people even now ( a couple of weeks ago even) with horrendous stories of bad experiences at church. Bullying etc. As you say there are many narcissistic people in leadership and still are. This is NOT church’s of God at all. I personally think GOD is having a clear out right now of all this dross going on.
Yep, 'Revival is coming!' and plenty of 'prophetic' words to support the jingoism. Year after year, always grasping for this intangible thing, an experience, all night prayer meetings, lights, fog machines. I don't know really what we were expecting. Only God does this stuff, when he wants to. I just want revival in my own life.
@ absolutely! What happened? The whole influence at the time was that revival was almost imminent. I fell for it all! I really thought this is going to happen at anytime. It was all a false flag! A false promise, I even remember telling my unbelieving friends that this is coming. The church I used to go to when this promise was at its height we used to do the conga on a Sunday morning singing “This is where the party is” from the worship band. This was a big church and still is. Many preaching and prayer meetings were just focused on this theme. Now I realise how gullible I was and that this was all just not true. Very disappointed. In fact so dissatisfied, disillusioned and disappointed I left church in the end because this was false teaching and other reasons I didn’t agree what church was doing. The main reason I left is because I just did not find God their anymore. When you questioned stuff like this they didn’t like it. How can you trust institutions when they have lied to you? New Frontier’s was just pushing all of this nonsense in the late 1990’s early 2000.
Hi Sam. My first pastorate was a disaster. For reasons completely beyond my control I ended up being put into a very large charismatic church, despite being neither a charismatic nor liking big churches. In this way I can really sympathise with you because it took some time to recover from that. Thankfully, I've been pastor at Parkside Evangelical Church for well over a decade now and it has been such a blessing to me and I hope and pray that my ministry has equally been a blessing to our congregation. There's two reasons I'm not a charismatic, the first is theological and the second is practical. I feel deeply uneasy about the idea of a "second blessing" or a separate "baptism in the Holy Spirit" that some Christians enjoy and others don't. It creates a two-tier hierarchy where some Christians are loved by God more and live a life that is far more pleasing to God and so God does them special favours, and then beneath them are the lowly types that are disappointing to God because they're not willing to have these magical experiences. (It's never put as bluntly as this, but it is implied everywhere.) I also fear that this creates the culture that has so hurt you - where the people with the greatest gifts (those whom God loves more) are able to peer into the souls of others with 'words of knowledge' and 'prophecies.' This can so easily slip into abuse and manipulation - consciously by damaged narcissists and unconsciously by naive people just trying to get a job done or be more compassionate than God. Then there's the whole issue of false prophecies that never come to pass and constantly having to make up excuses for that. And there's the use of music to manipulate the feelings of the congregation and lead them into a "high". I could go on... As a pastor, I don't see myself as above my congregation or elders. I too am a sinner, just like everyone else. My standing with God is based on his totally undeserved love, not on experiences, not on things that I can do that other Christians can't do. My main God-given duty as a pastor is to try to help my congregation to understand the Bible better for themselves because it is there that we can all hear the voice of God speaking to us, then seek to live that out in congregational life in love, grateful service and forgiveness for each other when we get it wrong. You often title your videos with the word "Evangelical" which is a very broad term as it includes both Pentecostal/Charismatic churches and Reformed/Word-centred non-Charismatic churches. Judging from your videos, you seem to have been hurt more by the abuses that can flow from Charismatic churches and experiences. Reformed/Word-centred churches can also damage people, but that's often through legalism, theological pedantry and separation-ism. Is it Evangelicalism in general that you've been hurt by or is it more the fallout of Charismatic abuses?
hey - lovely to hear from you. Two points - I think your responsibility is firstly to serve your congregation/ and community, secondly, Evangelical now includes charismatic hook, line and sinker - I think the US is mainly responsible for this, but in my experience, Soul Survivor had the greatest influence over my generation and below. Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to comment - have a super weekend.
@@SamHowson Don't forget, that the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement is only about 120 years old (Azusa Street revival). Pentecostalism the new kid on the block in terms of church history and given the problems it has caused, I still think it is compassionate to warn Christians about it and show them that the historic alternative still stands strong. The historic position of the church for 1800 years was that the charismatic' gifts of the Spirit' were unique to the early church and were only needed then because the NT hadn't yet been completed. Because if this, I'm going to have to disagree with you about "Evangelical now includes charismatic, hook line and sinker." The Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches and the Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales, for example, are non-Charismatic denominations. Perhaps you can understand that from our perspective, your criticisms against Charismatic abuses also become criticisms against churches like ours because you insist on calling them "Evangelical" despite the fact that we fully share your concerns. We don't think that's fair and we feel that you're misrepresenting us in the public sphere.
@@parksideevangelicalchurch2886 based on both points - I will continue to use 'Evangelical' and 'evangelicalism' to cover the plethora of theology, tradition and ecclesiology my experience includes both in the UK and Europe, Africa and the US. Hope you understand and support me. Thanks for challenging me.
I do not have the calling of a teacher, however I want to encourage people to keep on hearing from God and keep on following His path for your life and believe that He will restore what was lost!
Please keep on doing what you are doing, because whatever you are doing, you are doing it well. Remember, you're just hitting on the very tip of an ice burg. Don't get swallowed up into the rabbit hole because people in these organisations tend to have their feelers out for people who upset the status quo, so don't let these pharasees or their minions try to flip the script on you. And to the rest of you, when you're in these 'evangelical' or 'charismatic' organisations, NEVER take these people home with you or ingratiate themselves into your lives.
1979, around a hundred eager people packed into an old chapel in a quiet Oxfordshire town; I felt the heat of a presence beyond my experience. After twenty years of growth in faith, discipleship and evangelism, the homespun family had become a global organisation of thousands. Its centre was a corporation of men, patriarchs in ivory towers and Spectre lairs, who wielded power over ranks of lesser men. In the streets you couldn't tell them from Adam. In meetings they strutted and bellowed, chests puffed out, heads tilted heavenwards, above the throng. They probably meant well, but I didn't recognise them. This was a business. After many years I understood my problem - not being a businessman, I did not fit in, so I left
Sam if you like music as a kind of vent. Suggest you listen to “ God only knows” by the band “ James” ( they had a big hit with a song called Sit down in the 90’s) He pretty much nails it what is going on in a lot of churches today. Great song! God does know what is going on!
You weren't a good fit because there was something darker and deeper happening that you weren't privy to, and the 'gatekeepers' that you have in every organisation saw you weren't going to be implicated or go along with the darker aspects of the highly nuanced things they do, so for their self preservation, you weren't allowed into the club. And THANK GOD! Don't see HTB as a rejection, but a massive blessing in the guise of a rejection. You wanted to be closer to God, not one of them at HTB has God nor do they want to know him.
Problem with worship it is idolaterous. No matter in the church or outside the church its the same. What we are looking for is not being addressed How to worship God without being idolaterous? It also needs to address how can we be honourable to Mary and remember her, without being idolaterous? I have been learning that for many years, what is true worship and how does God want to be worshipped and how does He wants us to honour Mary, because its all about Him. People are in error with authority and there is a lot of corruption in authority, but I also learnt all authority adn how to end corruption in authority. Because there is always an end to corrupt authority. God will teach his people and we can hear Him and He does, He teaches us through the Holy Ghost, He teaches us through His word, His bible, the past, present and future, He teaches us through His creation, He teaches us in so many different ways, its always His learning, He teaches us in life, even in silence is His learning, and gives us important life lessons. What you need to address is your resentment because you are not hearing from Him, nor are you learning from Him. You also need to address your anti authority stance. Yes people can become vunerable but they are also not meant to be folllowing lies and deception. Vunerability can also be a strength that can lead to contrition. Not everyone that comes with authority wants to stand in those places and spaces nor are meant to. You also need to stop being anti anointing, and thinking that everyone that is anointed goes around and wants to be treated special, those who are anointed are also persecuted and have a responsibility along with maturity. I am grateful for the Holy Ghost, who is Jesus' anointing.
Sort of paradoxical, I would suggest; so called “evangelical “ ie bible believing, churches putting so much emphasis on worship music as the means to Gods presence; when nowhere in the New Testament is this given any relevance. Bizarre how so many are caught up in this …..
Oh boy! Is this a timely post. Of course, Roman Catholicism - with its false 'Petrine Ministry', and all the claims which accompany it - exemplifies this 'divinely chosen' tendency; every bit as much as charismatic Evangelicalism. Of course, the earliest disciples were chosen by Jesus of Nazareth, himself: but later 'clergy' were acclaimed by their congregations: not appointed by other clerics as part of a hierarchical 'career-clergy'. I don't know what a "boomer" is; but I am a seventy-two-year-old homosexual Christian who - fortunately studied Theology back in the 1970s, just at the time of the publication of 'THE MYTH OF GOD INCARNATE'. Whilst having spent my entire life away from 'organised denominations', challenging that little book provided me with a lifelong interest in Christology (what contemporary Jewish scholars refer-to as 'Jesus Studies'); which I read throughout my Nursing career. Today, I am angry with the 'clergy' for misrepresenting, and 'demoting' the young makle Jew, Jesus. On the Evangelical side, they worship the bible like a Muslim does his Koran! Scripture is written by human beings, as an aid toward revealing the Creator, who was embodied in Jesus of Nazareth. It is easy to claim God was embodied in 'Christ' of faith: but the Church still has a problem with claiming God was embodied in a human being. Thank you both for this discussion but - like my own ramblings - I'm not sure where it gets us.
@@SamHowson Thank you, Sam. Think about the foundation myth of the Hebrew peoples. To which 'scriptures' was "the wandering Aramean" referring when the Creator of all-that-is called him out of Ur of the Chaldees? YHWH is not circumscribed - let alone limited - by 'scripture': a collection of ancient document like any other; except that they were designated 'scripture'. The Christian 'Doctrine of Scripture' was ably set out in the Dictionary of Christian Theology, edited by the late Dean of York, Professor Alan Richardson. His article puts clear philosophical water between the way Christians should treat, read, and use our scriptures: and the way Muslims treat, read, and use their Koran (and Sira, and Hadiths: because Islam = Koran PLUS Mohammed!). This clear philosophical water is completely muddied by Evangelical and Roman Catholic Christians; through their adherence to 'fundamentalism' ( a term which, itself, has an interesting history). Evangelicals refer to 'the word of God', when describing the bible: but in practice, they mean - like Muslims - the physical words of God. This is shocking, and preposterous: and it is the source of the Churches decline in being capable of enabling YHWH, through His Messiah, to 'speak' to the modern World. So much false theology cascades from this blasphemous attitude to 'scripture'. Only God is Holy: yet the Evangelicals put the word before 'Bible'. It is God who acts in the humanly-consecrated Eucharist; and it is God who reveals Himself in humanly-authored 'scriptures': Tanakh and New Testament. And He does not stop there! Books are written today, which add to our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth: that is the miracle of God having become embodied in our history. This is the faith which has sustained my love for the God I see in Jesus, outside of the Church for most of my seventy-two years.
Hi Sam, I totally get where you have come from. I was part of a couple of evangelical churches for twenty years. The promise of revival yes was totally being amplified in prayer meetings, House groups & bible weeks away. I fell for it too. They were preaching that this huge wave of revival was imminent. Now this was in the late 1990’s-early 2000’s. What happened? Well nothing. It was all a false promise. I started questioning all of this eventually and the response I had was unbelievable! I was told to OBEY the leaders not question them and apparently I was BOLSHY for even questioning this. What I was finding was if that you didn’t tow the party line you just didn’t fit anymore. I kept seeing more and more nonsense. I remember A really good guy we were friends with at church at the time quit his job to be Caretaker at a big evangelical church in East Sussex we were members of that church of. He was so exited about it. A few months later I met him and he looked depressed. I asked him what was wrong? He said I have seen this church in a different light. It’s all about BUSINESS and I am treated like something they have scraped of their shoe from the leaders! Needless to say he quit his job there. I am still bumping into people even now ( a couple of weeks ago even) with horrendous stories of bad experiences at church. Bullying etc. As you say there are many narcissistic people in leadership and still are. This is NOT church’s of God at all. I personally think GOD is having a clear out right now of all this dross going on.
Yep, 'Revival is coming!' and plenty of 'prophetic' words to support the jingoism. Year after year, always grasping for this intangible thing, an experience, all night prayer meetings, lights, fog machines. I don't know really what we were expecting. Only God does this stuff, when he wants to. I just want revival in my own life.
@ absolutely! What happened? The whole influence at the time was that revival was almost imminent. I fell for it all! I really thought this is going to happen at anytime. It was all a false flag! A false promise, I even remember telling my unbelieving friends that this is coming. The church I used to go to when this promise was at its height we used to do the conga on a Sunday morning singing “This is where the party is” from the worship band. This was a big church and still is. Many preaching and prayer meetings were just focused on this theme.
Now I realise how gullible I was and that this was all just not true. Very disappointed. In fact so dissatisfied, disillusioned and disappointed I left church in the end because this was false teaching and other reasons I didn’t agree what church was doing. The main reason I left is because I just did not find God their anymore. When you questioned stuff like this they didn’t like it. How can you trust institutions when they have lied to you? New Frontier’s was just pushing all of this nonsense in the late 1990’s early 2000.
Hi Sam. My first pastorate was a disaster. For reasons completely beyond my control I ended up being put into a very large charismatic church, despite being neither a charismatic nor liking big churches. In this way I can really sympathise with you because it took some time to recover from that. Thankfully, I've been pastor at Parkside Evangelical Church for well over a decade now and it has been such a blessing to me and I hope and pray that my ministry has equally been a blessing to our congregation.
There's two reasons I'm not a charismatic, the first is theological and the second is practical. I feel deeply uneasy about the idea of a "second blessing" or a separate "baptism in the Holy Spirit" that some Christians enjoy and others don't. It creates a two-tier hierarchy where some Christians are loved by God more and live a life that is far more pleasing to God and so God does them special favours, and then beneath them are the lowly types that are disappointing to God because they're not willing to have these magical experiences. (It's never put as bluntly as this, but it is implied everywhere.) I also fear that this creates the culture that has so hurt you - where the people with the greatest gifts (those whom God loves more) are able to peer into the souls of others with 'words of knowledge' and 'prophecies.' This can so easily slip into abuse and manipulation - consciously by damaged narcissists and unconsciously by naive people just trying to get a job done or be more compassionate than God. Then there's the whole issue of false prophecies that never come to pass and constantly having to make up excuses for that. And there's the use of music to manipulate the feelings of the congregation and lead them into a "high". I could go on...
As a pastor, I don't see myself as above my congregation or elders. I too am a sinner, just like everyone else. My standing with God is based on his totally undeserved love, not on experiences, not on things that I can do that other Christians can't do. My main God-given duty as a pastor is to try to help my congregation to understand the Bible better for themselves because it is there that we can all hear the voice of God speaking to us, then seek to live that out in congregational life in love, grateful service and forgiveness for each other when we get it wrong.
You often title your videos with the word "Evangelical" which is a very broad term as it includes both Pentecostal/Charismatic churches and Reformed/Word-centred non-Charismatic churches. Judging from your videos, you seem to have been hurt more by the abuses that can flow from Charismatic churches and experiences. Reformed/Word-centred churches can also damage people, but that's often through legalism, theological pedantry and separation-ism. Is it Evangelicalism in general that you've been hurt by or is it more the fallout of Charismatic abuses?
hey - lovely to hear from you. Two points - I think your responsibility is firstly to serve your congregation/ and community, secondly, Evangelical now includes charismatic hook, line and sinker - I think the US is mainly responsible for this, but in my experience, Soul Survivor had the greatest influence over my generation and below. Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to comment - have a super weekend.
@@SamHowson Don't forget, that the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement is only about 120 years old (Azusa Street revival). Pentecostalism the new kid on the block in terms of church history and given the problems it has caused, I still think it is compassionate to warn Christians about it and show them that the historic alternative still stands strong. The historic position of the church for 1800 years was that the charismatic' gifts of the Spirit' were unique to the early church and were only needed then because the NT hadn't yet been completed.
Because if this, I'm going to have to disagree with you about "Evangelical now includes charismatic, hook line and sinker." The Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches and the Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales, for example, are non-Charismatic denominations. Perhaps you can understand that from our perspective, your criticisms against Charismatic abuses also become criticisms against churches like ours because you insist on calling them "Evangelical" despite the fact that we fully share your concerns. We don't think that's fair and we feel that you're misrepresenting us in the public sphere.
@@parksideevangelicalchurch2886 both Smyth and Fletcher were both non-Charismatic Evangelicals abusers.
@@SamHowson That's fair. Shameful, but fair.
@@parksideevangelicalchurch2886 based on both points - I will continue to use 'Evangelical' and 'evangelicalism' to cover the plethora of theology, tradition and ecclesiology my experience includes both in the UK and Europe, Africa and the US. Hope you understand and support me. Thanks for challenging me.
This really resonates - thanks for posting.
Thanks for your encouragement
I do not have the calling of a teacher, however I want to encourage people to keep on hearing from God and keep on following His path for your life and believe that He will restore what was lost!
Please keep on doing what you are doing, because whatever you are doing, you are doing it well.
Remember, you're just hitting on the very tip of an ice burg. Don't get swallowed up into the rabbit hole because people in these organisations tend to have their feelers out for people who upset the status quo, so don't let these pharasees or their minions try to flip the script on you.
And to the rest of you, when you're in these 'evangelical' or 'charismatic' organisations, NEVER take these people home with you or ingratiate themselves into your lives.
1979, around a hundred eager people packed into an old chapel in a quiet Oxfordshire town; I felt the heat of a presence beyond my experience. After twenty years of growth in faith, discipleship and evangelism, the homespun family had become a global organisation of thousands. Its centre was a corporation of men, patriarchs in ivory towers and Spectre lairs, who wielded power over ranks of lesser men. In the streets you couldn't tell them from Adam. In meetings they strutted and bellowed, chests puffed out, heads tilted heavenwards, above the throng. They probably meant well, but I didn't recognise them. This was a business. After many years I understood my problem - not being a businessman, I did not fit in, so I left
Sam if you like music as a kind of vent. Suggest you listen to “ God only knows” by the band “ James” ( they had a big hit with a song called Sit down in the 90’s) He pretty much nails it what is going on in a lot of churches today. Great song! God does know what is going on!
Hey thanks, I'll take a listen. Bikes and dog walks are my vent!
Exactly!
You weren't a good fit because there was something darker and deeper happening that you weren't privy to, and the 'gatekeepers' that you have in every organisation saw you weren't going to be implicated or go along with the darker aspects of the highly nuanced things they do, so for their self preservation, you weren't allowed into the club. And THANK GOD!
Don't see HTB as a rejection, but a massive blessing in the guise of a rejection.
You wanted to be closer to God, not one of them at HTB has God nor do they want to know him.
Agreed!!!
My only experience of HTB leads me to think that not being accepted by them is not a bad thing.
Problem with worship it is idolaterous. No matter in the church or outside the church its the same. What we are looking for is not being addressed How to worship God without being idolaterous? It also needs to address how can we be honourable to Mary and remember her, without being idolaterous? I have been learning that for many years, what is true worship and how does God want to be worshipped and how does He wants us to honour Mary, because its all about Him.
People are in error with authority and there is a lot of corruption in authority, but I also learnt all authority adn how to end corruption in authority. Because there is always an end to corrupt authority.
God will teach his people and we can hear Him and He does, He teaches us through the Holy Ghost, He teaches us through His word, His bible, the past, present and future, He teaches us through His creation, He teaches us in so many different ways, its always His learning, He teaches us in life, even in silence is His learning, and gives us important life lessons. What you need to address is your resentment because you are not hearing from Him, nor are you learning from Him. You also need to address your anti authority stance. Yes people can become vunerable but they are also not meant to be folllowing lies and deception. Vunerability can also be a strength that can lead to contrition. Not everyone that comes with authority wants to stand in those places and spaces nor are meant to. You also need to stop being anti anointing, and thinking that everyone that is anointed goes around and wants to be treated special, those who are anointed are also persecuted and have a responsibility along with maturity. I am grateful for the Holy Ghost, who is Jesus' anointing.
Sort of paradoxical, I would suggest; so called “evangelical “ ie bible believing, churches putting so much emphasis on worship music as the means to Gods presence; when nowhere in the New Testament is this given any relevance. Bizarre how so many are caught up in this …..
Spot on!
Oh boy! Is this a timely post. Of course, Roman Catholicism - with its false 'Petrine Ministry', and all the claims which accompany it - exemplifies this 'divinely chosen' tendency; every bit as much as charismatic Evangelicalism. Of course, the earliest disciples were chosen by Jesus of Nazareth, himself: but later 'clergy' were acclaimed by their congregations: not appointed by other clerics as part of a hierarchical 'career-clergy'. I don't know what a "boomer" is; but I am a seventy-two-year-old homosexual Christian who - fortunately studied Theology back in the 1970s, just at the time of the publication of 'THE MYTH OF GOD INCARNATE'. Whilst having spent my entire life away from 'organised denominations', challenging that little book provided me with a lifelong interest in Christology (what contemporary Jewish scholars refer-to as 'Jesus Studies'); which I read throughout my Nursing career. Today, I am angry with the 'clergy' for misrepresenting, and 'demoting' the young makle Jew, Jesus. On the Evangelical side, they worship the bible like a Muslim does his Koran! Scripture is written by human beings, as an aid toward revealing the Creator, who was embodied in Jesus of Nazareth. It is easy to claim God was embodied in 'Christ' of faith: but the Church still has a problem with claiming God was embodied in a human being. Thank you both for this discussion but - like my own ramblings - I'm not sure where it gets us.
Hey, thanks for your comment. I'm really interested in your likening of the evangelical's 'worship of the Bible to a Muslim to the Quran'.
@@SamHowson Thank you, Sam. Think about the foundation myth of the Hebrew peoples. To which 'scriptures' was "the wandering Aramean" referring when the Creator of all-that-is called him out of Ur of the Chaldees? YHWH is not circumscribed - let alone limited - by 'scripture': a collection of ancient document like any other; except that they were designated 'scripture'. The Christian 'Doctrine of Scripture' was ably set out in the Dictionary of Christian Theology, edited by the late Dean of York, Professor Alan Richardson. His article puts clear philosophical water between the way Christians should treat, read, and use our scriptures: and the way Muslims treat, read, and use their Koran (and Sira, and Hadiths: because Islam = Koran PLUS Mohammed!). This clear philosophical water is completely muddied by Evangelical and Roman Catholic Christians; through their adherence to 'fundamentalism' ( a term which, itself, has an interesting history). Evangelicals refer to 'the word of God', when describing the bible: but in practice, they mean - like Muslims - the physical words of God. This is shocking, and preposterous: and it is the source of the Churches decline in being capable of enabling YHWH, through His Messiah, to 'speak' to the modern World. So much false theology cascades from this blasphemous attitude to 'scripture'. Only God is Holy: yet the Evangelicals put the word before 'Bible'. It is God who acts in the humanly-consecrated Eucharist; and it is God who reveals Himself in humanly-authored 'scriptures': Tanakh and New Testament. And He does not stop there! Books are written today, which add to our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth: that is the miracle of God having become embodied in our history. This is the faith which has sustained my love for the God I see in Jesus, outside of the Church for most of my seventy-two years.