I also loved the idea that you find Karras in his secure chamber. you hear about him, you read about him, he almost becomes a myth and it looks like he might be more than just human. Then you see him and he looks like almost every other npc mechanist in the game perhaps because he wanted his "children" and servants to look just like him. presenting a dangerous villian to the player, fighting him without really fighting him. Genious. Thief 2 is my absolute favourite of all the games out there. Great Video !
Thanks! I don't think many games have achieved with their villains what Thief 2 achieved with Karras. Bioshock had a similar build-up to the player's face-to-face with Andrew Ryan, but it's a damned rare thing to find.
This level was an absolute masterpiece. The difficulty, the architecture, the narrative. It all comes together beautifully. Even Garrett questions if it is even possible to complete this mission undetected. So much so, that he almost walks away from it as shown in the opening cutscene of the level. Karras constantly mocking you, gloating about his achievements almost drills away at your confidence, assault robots and masked mechanists around every corner. You are never safe. The loud machines deafen you, the large angel statues gaze upon you. The security cameras watch your every move, even when you first walk through the door there is a security camera already locked onto you. You cannot complete this mission without being detected. Karras already knows you are there. He just doesn't know what you're doing.
Soulforge is one of my favorite missions; it's a very fun challenge, and it even has an element of creepy from the fact that the only other living person in the building is literally raving insane. I would like to point out that the cathedral visited in Eavesdropping is called the Eastport Mechanist Seminary, and is a formerly-Hammerite structure, whereas Soulforge Cathedral is (according to Karras) built entirely by the Mechanists.
RaxuRangerking Yup, another comment pointed that out, still surprised that never clicked with me until after I made this video! Your point about being trapped with a lunatic is a good one; it really adds to the tension as his presence is felt in every room...
Yeah; I just figured I'd add that Soulforge was made by Karras. Another aspect to the creepy factor of this mission is that it touches on a real-world concept that some people worry about; the idea that there's an apocalyptic agenda behind seemingly innocent visionary leaders. It's been explored in gaming before, but in every case I can think of, the villain gets exposed somehow, and by the time they're dead the population realizes what happened. With Karras, he lived and died as a charitable inventor in the eyes of the public; most of them probably think he was just a nice, if eccentric, guy whose creations accidentally killed him.
I remember playing this mission back in 2000, it totally broke me. I abandoned finishing the game for a long time and then went back determined and finally beat this level in like 2001 or 2002. I think I hated it when I was younger because of the difficulty and lack of anything interesting or nice to look at, it really is desolate. It’s also an endurance test, there is so much to do and when you think you’re finished you have more to do. But looking back on it now I can appreciate what the designers were going for here and you’ve summarised this very well in the video. Also as pointed out by a few comments here, the Eastport Seminary from the Eavesdropping mission and Soulforge Cathedral are not the same building. You had me going insane here thinking had I missed something from the game that says they are the same!
Yeah, for some reason my mind connected the two locations on a narrative level! Just one of those things. Glad you found your way back to finishing the mission in the end. I was broken by that mission to find Brother Cavador in The Lost City. Bought and played through Thief The Dark Project, then came back to Thief 2 and finished the game from the beginning.
Second reason why I think Garrett is allowed to kill in this mission is the fact that the cathedral will detonate with rust gas no matter what, killing every organic matter.
My favorite Thief level is definitely Return to The Cathedral, but this was definitely a fun one =). When I first played SaC, I felt it was a sort of successor to RTC in that you were navigating around the map doing smaller objectives to complete it without a singular focus. And similarly, Garrett didn't really have much of a plan for RTC after The Eye resealed the cathedral doors. I wish that like SaC, RTC didn't REQUIRE you to kill any enemies (like the Haunts you have to kill RTC), but it is still an amazing level in its atmosphere and challenge. Although I love both missions to pieces, I prefer the chaotic sense of disorientation you get tonally in RTC to the methodical approach of destroying Soulforge and bringing about Karras's demise. It feels like you and Garrett are in way over their heads, when the latter stops saying a single word for nearly the entirety of the mission (at least compared to other missions). He doesn't say anything when he grabs The Eye, but it instead speaks to him. He only worries aloud of how he'll escape, once he tries the main doors and finds them to be resealed. The only other real line he has is him reading a prayer over some the grave of someone who's been dead for who knows how long. A prayer to apparently free three dudes' souls in exchange for some way out of the nightmare (which you aren't even certain of). And it isn't over. Now you have to go back into the nightmare and bury two of Murus's friends. And then you have to kill the haunts to free their souls as well. Just like with the holy symbol, you'll need to produce a key to get to Brother Renault in the cellar. In both levels, every area has a purpose. Everything has a use. And everything is drowning in the tension of the chains that rattle within the flooded winter tunnels. By the time you're through the gate, you're so relieved to finally be out. And I bet the trauma would have been mind-numbing for Garrett as well (I can imagine him with a hard thousand-yard stare, taking a day to just rest it off before he brings the artifact to Constantine, leading to my favorite cutscene in the series). Both levels are definitive of the stealth genre. What were your thoughts on stealing The Eye and dealing Murus's nonsense in a Cathedral than fell to ultimate evil ("This place is not as holy as it once was")?
Wow, some fantastic points there! I never thought about how Garrett went quiet during RTC and, yes, I think there is some parallel between that mission and Sabotage at Soulforge. I have to say, aesthetically I prefer the missions of Thief: The Dark Project because of the supernatural horror/threat. However, I think SaS is the better mission compared with RTC due to its scope and the breadth of stealth-focused challenges you face. Lots of running, climbing, hiding, exploring, sabotaging and (amazingly) crafting. I kind of hate that on the hardest difficulty you have to kill enemies in RTC; it feels very much like an arbitrary, gamey objective to me, rather than something Murus would actually need Garrett to do. Whereas in SaS, everything is being driven by need and the constant presence of Karras's madness; the desperation of the moment. That said, to this day, I refuse to divide Thief 1 and Thief 2 in terms of preference. Both are excellent and both provide different kinds of quintessential stealth gaming moments. They are one story in two distinct parts. I might one day 'rank' the missions for funsies, but if I sit down and play either game I'm a very happy person :D Thanks for taking the time to leave such a detailed comment on a 6-year-old video!
@@StealthDocs Thanks for taking the time to read it and engage in discussion. It shows passion, in a series that we both significant attachment to. And yes, I also love the supernatural elements in Thief 1. I actually started with and inherited Deadly Shadows. I was terrified of the zombies imprisoned by the Hammerites in the mission where you steal the Builder's Chalice. I loved the pagans and their monsters down in the well, and blowing up rust mites and spreading moss to get protection from the factions. I loved the hag and Shalebridge Cradle, and decided to play the first two. I really liked Thief 1, because it was much more than what I expected, and I was completely immersed. Thief 2 kinda alienated me, but I've grown fond of it over the years. Although SaC has greater scale and variety in its challenge and design (which made it an objectively better mission), I felt that the challenges posed by RTC (when playing it like Thief and not flashbombing everything in sight) put a lot more pressure on me. There isn't really any other mission in the series that does this as effectively, and I attribute that to the Haunts and their A.I. in the first game. They wander around their routes somewhat randomly. It's something I really like, cause it keeps you on your toes. When you stop to listen out and don't hear anything, it's pretty unnerving, cause you aren't sure where the noise will come from when danger is nearby (getting pincered is a real threat in the tunnels). Because haunts 'wander', you have to use the audio information to *predict* their pathing and intentions. That's the key thing. You don't always get to wait and learn the exact routes each one will take, especially if you just escaped a chase and are trying to get back into the stealth flow. Also, it's not just having this information to get from place to place undetected, which is something you might forget. It's the lack of information that also makes this stressful. When you enter certain 'safe' rooms and buildings (i.e. when blessing the Holy symbol), there are times where you literally can't hear *anything* going on outside. So if you just walked in there, fumbled around, and just start exiting to hear chains rattling and potentially a ghost, it can be terrifying. You might not know where they are going either or why they came here. Maybe they just wandered in, or... they somehow detected you. And you're praying they don't wander in the room (if you turned on the power). It's being prepared for things to go wrong on the exit route (furthered by randomized pathing) that really set this mission apart and made it so memorable for me. Again, it just sucks that the game is asking you to just flashbomb all of this away :(. Otherwise, it felt like pretty much everything you've been doing (Clagscleft -> Bonehoard, Sword, THC, Towers -> Lost City -> SotC -> Undercover) was meant to prepare you for this ultimate mission. It's so incredibly simple; just grab the eye and go. But even after the game taught you about haunts (since DtB if you played on expert), ghosts, zombies, navigating lit and unlit areas on a variety of surfaces, and divulging position through sound, something even then had to go wrong and offer a new problem to solve. "It's not an easy thing to see a Keeper... especially one who does not wish to be seen."
@@StealthDocs And yes, I'd remove the haunts objective. This is the one part of the mission I agree does not fit. In fact, it is the haunts that make the mission so tense because of their awareness and aggression. When there is nothing discouraging or preventing you from killing them, why wouldn't you just run into the cathedral and lob 3 flashbombs to eliminate all the challenge and tension (and I think that this shouldn't be an option, at least not for the Haunts)? I think they should be unkillable or very difficult to kill on expert, as the final layer of challenge before the (disappointing) final act and to contrast with the zombies who can be flashbombed. Adding to this, I think there should potentially be a way out of the Cathedral through an upper window or something, since having this would provide another option to get away after nabbing The Eye. You wouldn't just have to wait for the deaggro and wait so long to bring brother Martello across, but it would be accompanied by the risk of being spotted on the descent. The harsh moonlight would illuminate you to the enemies below, if you weren't careful to listen closely for patrol routes below you. A counterbalance could potentially be allowing haunts to reach you at the top floors, leaving rope arrows as more a shortcut. Therefore, dropping down leaves more pressure if you're being chased due to not having as much time to listen out. This would tie into the vertical rooftop navigation that we had in Assassins, making the mission even more complete. If I knew how to mod in Dromed and change enemy stats and behaviors, I would actually try to experiment with T1 OM10 to bring some of these changes and test them out. Alas... My top 5 missions (in personal impact and enjoyment) are: 5. Sword 4. Trail of Blood 3. The Haunted Cathedral 2. Down in The Bonehoard 1. RTC All of those I like have some flaws that bother a lot of people, but I love my beasties, platforming, challenge, and atmosphere.
I challenged myself to a 2 thief games with expert-no-items-bare-hands, and it happen that to achieve that you have to stay undetected most of the times, save load is a must, but I didn't use save-load at soulforge much, it was easy giving the challenge, but it became just tedious boring and chore, it doesn't test your skills for me, rather than your patience and space orientation. For testing your skills I would go for a Bank mission. Bank is the only mission that prevents me from blindfolded challenge.
Good video. I love Soulforge and don't get the hate it receives, especially from Thief fans. However, where did you get the idea that the Mechanist seminary in Eavesdropping and Soulforge are the same building? They look nothing alike, share no precise architectural elements and don't share the same layout at all. The seminary is small and hasn't been fully transformed yet (there are still Hammerite elements) while Soulforge is enormous and wholly Mechanist. It's another building entirely. Garrett wouldn't infiltrate the Mechanist seminary in Eavesdropping if it were Soulforge, he knows the place is too well guarded and Truart himself would've looked suspicious if he went to Soulforge to meet Karras, hence why that small seminary was chosen for the meeting.
I...don't know why I thought they were the same building! I always assumed that the Seminary was Karras's base of operations, because he met with Truart there and demonstrated the power of the Masked Servants under controlled conditions, and that it was substantially upgraded *into* Soulforge over the course of the game. Given the tech under the Mechanists' control (the digging machines and Builders Children, etc.), I just assumed they were able to modify the original structure to the extent that it was virtually unrecognisable! There was a transformative nature to the Mechanists' actions that just seemed to work with that idea. Good call, though. I never thought the two buildings were different.
I love Soulforge but I sorta understand the hate it gets. The problem with T2 is that the last third of the game is noticeably rushed due to the financial issues Looking Glass were having. So there's a lot of empty rooms, less atmosphere and less variety compared to earlier parts of the game (you even play more or less the exact same mission twice in a row, and both times take a long time to complete). So by the time players reach Soulforge they are likely to have quite a bit of Thief fatigue due to all the repetitiveness and that will color their enthusiasm for the level. I also love the last mission in Thief 1 (Maw of Chaos) despite it's obvious disadvantages. Yes it is linear and easy, but it also has a very dense atmosphere and a great sense of descending into madness. And unlike Soulforge it doesn't run the risk of outstaying it's welcome. So imo both final missions are great but for completely different reasons.
I just recently finished the entire Thief trilogy, I loved all of the games and Thief 2 had the most satisfying number of missions imo. But, Soulforge for me was not one of them, at all... Some of the reasons are on my end I admit, for starters, I dislike crafting... The level starts with zero directions next to a bunch of crafting stations, and so I immediately assumed I had to read every paper, to take note of what ingredients I had to mix, on what machine, to craft only The Builder knows what... That turned me off instantly, couple that with the sense of urgency (I even though there was a time limit) and so I looked for a guide... Of course, now I know I should have explored until I found the proper instructions, but I didn't want to lose hours to do what I assumed to be a timed crafting mission (which I dislike). Then the level itself, almost everything is an empty room or corridor with few noticeable landmarks, its bland, boring, I know it kinda fits the theme but I'm sure something more could be done here. Mechanical enemies roam everywhere making a detection almost a death sentence, you'll be rationing supplies like never before due to the length of the level, so for me it just became an aimless boring slog of a level... Besides Karra's lines. The only level I disliked more than this was the Thieves Guild (the only other level I also looked a guide)... So yeah, I even prefer the Maw of Chaos from Thief 1, sure that level is a linear cake walk, but at least I felt like I deserved it after all the taffin I've been trough, the level was also visually appealing and memorable with some weirdly unique set-pieces (sliding down ice(?), swimming floating roof water and so on), it was a confident final lap. Soulforge in comparison felt like running head straight into the finish-line, if the finish-line was a brick wall they expected you to break by bashing it with your skull. In short, Maw of Chaos way too easy, Soulforge way too hard, the Keepers didn't do their job here balancing this shit out.
I love your video. I've finished this level yesterday and I must say it was pretty difficult for me. There was some places really difficult to get, not even to do not get spotted but to stayed alive. On the beggining on this level I've chosen my route, missing the Plan Room when I could find info about antennas, but I've figured out that I need switch them from A to B on myself. And even I was playing on Expert difficulty I've switched all of them. Last thing to do was manufacture this device to plug it into the correct place. After watched last cutscene I was not satisfied, because I think I didn't exactly get what happened inside of this Cathedral when all of robots were inside. Why this servant released gas? Why did it exploded? And also - who was that guy in the end saying about writting the story in books?
Glad you enjoyed the level! I can't really describe the whole plot of the game and I'm not sure why the ending didn't land with you. I can only think that maybe you skipped some cutscenes or didn't pick up on narrative elements within each mission? Very unusual.
Shalebridge Cradle, The Sword, Return to the Cathedral (ie. Ravenholm before Ravenholm ) - hell, even Bafford's Manor as an example of how to do opening missions right. The Thief series is just packed with mission design worth examining.
It's a good video, I think. While I can't say I prefer Thief 2 outright, I also can't deny how awesome Soulforge is. While Thief 2 had a rushed development, to me it doesn't seem like it affected the last level, which I'm grateful for. Oh, and you can destroy the robots with gas arrows? I guess I'll use that in my next playthrough then.
A valid choice. I also loved the 3rd mission when you're infiltrating a City Watch station to frame an Officer. Lots of little stories to discover, as well as secret passages. Angelwatch is also a personal favourite, just for its rooftops section. Soulforge represents a culmination in the story and characters, and presents the toughest challenges (including the rickety crafting system), and I love that stuff too.
I take all the supplies that I can and build as many trip bombs as I can with them, to kill as many sentries as possible. It makes things easier. Strangely: I don't fear the human enemies, they are really easy to deal with in comparison to the bomb throwing monsterlike sentries walking around. "Be aware, a misguided soul!" is like a deathsentence when one of the smaller sentries sees you.
It's a nice touch that the mission gives players the means to fashion their own equipment to deal directly with the threats. I didn't always have the patience, so often I'd sneak past enemies if I could. Thanks for watching and commenting!
You're welcome. It's a well written video that you made with this (I like those thought out and actually written narratives the most, because the casual ones are a bit shaky, so yours has a lot more value because of that). I mostly like the original version of a game better than the localized one. But in the German localization they used the german dubbing voices for famous actors. Gorman Truart has the voice of Dolph Lundgren and Kurt Russell (he sounds more powerful and "manly" in German, whereas in the english version he sounds like an english lord, which probably fits his character better, because Truart is somewhat arrogant too, which is entirely missing in the German localization). Karras has the devious dubbing voice of John Malkovich. The decision of the localization team to use the dubbing voices of famous actors increased the value of the experience enormously. That's why I rather play the German localization, because the voices are a bit more "epic" than in the original english version. Interesting fact: Karras doesn't have a speech impediment in the German localization. I was surprised to find out that this was actually one of his defining traits of his character overall (it's indicative of a low self-esteem that he tries to compensate with his genius intellect and megalomanic ambitions) - some things just get lost or wantonly omitted in the localizations, I guess.
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now, thats exactly the kind of video which screams "Subscribe" without having to scream subscribe all over video... =)
Well done with this video about one of Thief's most difficult missions. I never managed to get to Soulforge, unfortunately. Kudos to those who have in the past. Peace be upon Viktoria.
here's something i want to share with you to commemorate the new year th-cam.com/video/hXUono66wxI/w-d-xo.html who are the cool guys? the guys that play action games? or stealth games?
@@StealthDocs Well i guess you didn't like my tier list idea. either way i hope youre doing allright and that your next video is't hitting any stagnating snags. also i've been seeing some rather stimulating stealth videos that i think you might actually enjoy th-cam.com/video/ZZlBaK7e5bs/w-d-xo.html
This mission kicked my ass very hard ;-; . Took me more than four hours of recored gameplay (probably twice the real time) to complete it. I can't forget the feeling of despair, dreadness and madness, the ''How iam going to do this?" "Where to go?". Awesome video. I have to say, your channel is amazing ^-^
I was so busy trying to finish this mission so fast that I never got to experience the overall brilliance of it. I should've treated my playthrough with more respect lol.
Me, too! Though for now I'm thinking I'll make one Stealth Game Changer video and one Stealth Game Failure (i.e. "what they did badly") video for a few games series (Thief, Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, Hitman, etc.), just to avoid leaning towards any single one. However, before that happens I have to finish HoS Part 3. Hopefully soon! Thanks for watching. :)
Honestly the level made me feel kinda bad for Karras. He's so insane that he's surrounded himself only with machines that are modeled to be as similar to him as possible. Clearly he wants to be heard given how much he rambles on. The longer the level went on the more I felt sympathetic to this incredibly lonely lunatic. Can't help but feel there's a bit of a bit of a parallel to be drawn between the social isolation of both Garrett and Karras. Thief II is a lonely game but Soulforge is just alien in how desolate it feels.
Interesting. I don't feel even a little bit sorry for him! Karras was heard. People listened to him and indulged him, and he took advantage of everyone to fuel his messianic delusions, killing and persecuting a lot of other people in the process. His only expression of remorse is when he realises, right at the end, that his plans have backfired.
Regarding the "crafting system" and the ability to experiment, I don't find the "experimenting" to be anything worth praising. I used up all my raw materials to make the things that I had blueprints for, and it seems to me that one would have to fail MANY times as you tried to make new items without blueprints for them, and that seems like a massive waste of time IMHO. But an excellent video, in any case. I'm currently replaying TMA once again, like visiting an old friend.
A fair point. :) I don't think I praise the crafting; I even say at one point that it's not very good. Still, it added something new and interesting to the experience, and I thought that was worth making a note of. It goes without saying that the idea was poorly executed compared with modern games.
@@Torgo1969 That room is all about angles. You can disable some of the turrets using fire arrows to shoot the big explosives, but there are parts where you just have to run for cover.
@@StealthDocs Thanks. I'll have to save up some fire arrows for that hellish room. I'm making my way thru TMA once again lately, I just finished robbing the bank, haha!
man, i didn't even know you could use water arrows on those mechanical sentries. Imagine how much easier that level would have been had i known that. Sheesh.
Wow. You must've been hammering that Quicksave button! There was a note in the Seminary mission ("Eavesdropping") that explained the Builder's Children were vulnerable to water if it found its way into their boiler units, so water arrows became my favourite toys. I didn't know gas arrows worked too until reading about it on several guides, but being 10x more expensive than their water counterparts renders them a last-resort weapon. Also, thanks for watching! :D
This mission was one of the hardest I've ever played in a video game. I believe I only ever completed it once and if I remember correctly took over 6 hours. Very frustrating. There's no cheats for Thief 2 either so you can't even stick God Mode on just to get the game finished.
3:44 You claim that the Mechanist Seminary at Eastport was transformed into Soulforge Cathedral. Although there are similarities, I cannot find neither in the game nor in the wiki any info backing up this claim. Do you have a source where this is stated/hinted at?
My mistake; see other comments, it's a separate location. I read a bit too much into the opening area, which looks a lot like the chapel at the seminary.
@@StealthDocs Hi, thank you for your quick response! I absolutely agree, there are similarities. Anyway, I enjoyed your video a lot. I would be excited for more content on Thief 1-3 (Thief 4 not so much), like Constantines Mansion, Undercover, First City Bank and Trust, Life of the Party or Shalebridge Cradle. If you ever feel like revisiting the Thief series, I think those would easily qualify for an in-depth look :)
I’ll never forget the first time I played this game, I could only laugh at the sheer size of this level, it’s ridiculous. This is one of the greatest games ever created, but my God 😂😂
Great stuff my friend. I think you'll see your views rise as you move into more mainstream/current stealth titles like MGS and Assassin's Creed. Til then, I ain't gonna miss a thing.
You're right about that! I want to set up a good few videos looking at stealth games as a whole before moving into mainstream territories, maybe with a couple like this one that scrutinise more specific topics. Thanks for watching and for sticking around. :)
I hated this level to be honest lol. I managed to go through most of the game without having to resort to a walkthrough (I only REALLY got stuck on two levels iirc) but when I got to the last level it was so much more complicated that I even stopped playing the game for a while... Then my computer crashed and I lost the save and never finished the game, so I watched this level on TH-cam. The guy makes it seem so easy, but I was stuck for hours... :(
cool video but imo you're exaggerating lol. life of the party is a cooler setpiece and casing teh joint provides a far more interesting challenge, the final level of t2 is just... mediocre and annoying to navigate
I also loved the idea that you find Karras in his secure chamber. you hear about him, you read about him, he almost becomes a myth and it looks like he might be more than just human. Then you see him and he looks like almost every other npc mechanist in the game perhaps because he wanted his "children" and servants to look just like him.
presenting a dangerous villian to the player, fighting him without really fighting him. Genious.
Thief 2 is my absolute favourite of all the games out there. Great Video !
Thanks! I don't think many games have achieved with their villains what Thief 2 achieved with Karras. Bioshock had a similar build-up to the player's face-to-face with Andrew Ryan, but it's a damned rare thing to find.
This level was an absolute masterpiece. The difficulty, the architecture, the narrative. It all comes together beautifully.
Even Garrett questions if it is even possible to complete this mission undetected. So much so, that he almost walks away from it as shown in the opening cutscene of the level.
Karras constantly mocking you, gloating about his achievements almost drills away at your confidence, assault robots and masked mechanists around every corner. You are never safe.
The loud machines deafen you, the large angel statues gaze upon you. The security cameras watch your every move, even when you first walk through the door there is a security camera already locked onto you.
You cannot complete this mission without being detected. Karras already knows you are there. He just doesn't know what you're doing.
Soulforge is one of my favorite missions; it's a very fun challenge, and it even has an element of creepy from the fact that the only other living person in the building is literally raving insane. I would like to point out that the cathedral visited in Eavesdropping is called the Eastport Mechanist Seminary, and is a formerly-Hammerite structure, whereas Soulforge Cathedral is (according to Karras) built entirely by the Mechanists.
RaxuRangerking Yup, another comment pointed that out, still surprised that never clicked with me until after I made this video! Your point about being trapped with a lunatic is a good one; it really adds to the tension as his presence is felt in every room...
Yeah; I just figured I'd add that Soulforge was made by Karras. Another aspect to the creepy factor of this mission is that it touches on a real-world concept that some people worry about; the idea that there's an apocalyptic agenda behind seemingly innocent visionary leaders.
It's been explored in gaming before, but in every case I can think of, the villain gets exposed somehow, and by the time they're dead the population realizes what happened. With Karras, he lived and died as a charitable inventor in the eyes of the public; most of them probably think he was just a nice, if eccentric, guy whose creations accidentally killed him.
I remember playing this mission back in 2000, it totally broke me. I abandoned finishing the game for a long time and then went back determined and finally beat this level in like 2001 or 2002. I think I hated it when I was younger because of the difficulty and lack of anything interesting or nice to look at, it really is desolate. It’s also an endurance test, there is so much to do and when you think you’re finished you have more to do. But looking back on it now I can appreciate what the designers were going for here and you’ve summarised this very well in the video.
Also as pointed out by a few comments here, the Eastport Seminary from the Eavesdropping mission and Soulforge Cathedral are not the same building. You had me going insane here thinking had I missed something from the game that says they are the same!
Yeah, for some reason my mind connected the two locations on a narrative level! Just one of those things.
Glad you found your way back to finishing the mission in the end. I was broken by that mission to find Brother Cavador in The Lost City. Bought and played through Thief The Dark Project, then came back to Thief 2 and finished the game from the beginning.
One of the absolute best levels in the series.
Second reason why I think Garrett is allowed to kill in this mission is the fact that the cathedral will detonate with rust gas no matter what, killing every organic matter.
True enough!
My favorite Thief level is definitely Return to The Cathedral, but this was definitely a fun one =). When I first played SaC, I felt it was a sort of successor to RTC in that you were navigating around the map doing smaller objectives to complete it without a singular focus. And similarly, Garrett didn't really have much of a plan for RTC after The Eye resealed the cathedral doors. I wish that like SaC, RTC didn't REQUIRE you to kill any enemies (like the Haunts you have to kill RTC), but it is still an amazing level in its atmosphere and challenge.
Although I love both missions to pieces, I prefer the chaotic sense of disorientation you get tonally in RTC to the methodical approach of destroying Soulforge and bringing about Karras's demise. It feels like you and Garrett are in way over their heads, when the latter stops saying a single word for nearly the entirety of the mission (at least compared to other missions). He doesn't say anything when he grabs The Eye, but it instead speaks to him. He only worries aloud of how he'll escape, once he tries the main doors and finds them to be resealed. The only other real line he has is him reading a prayer over some the grave of someone who's been dead for who knows how long. A prayer to apparently free three dudes' souls in exchange for some way out of the nightmare (which you aren't even certain of). And it isn't over. Now you have to go back into the nightmare and bury two of Murus's friends. And then you have to kill the haunts to free their souls as well. Just like with the holy symbol, you'll need to produce a key to get to Brother Renault in the cellar.
In both levels, every area has a purpose. Everything has a use. And everything is drowning in the tension of the chains that rattle within the flooded winter tunnels. By the time you're through the gate, you're so relieved to finally be out. And I bet the trauma would have been mind-numbing for Garrett as well (I can imagine him with a hard thousand-yard stare, taking a day to just rest it off before he brings the artifact to Constantine, leading to my favorite cutscene in the series).
Both levels are definitive of the stealth genre. What were your thoughts on stealing The Eye and dealing Murus's nonsense in a Cathedral than fell to ultimate evil ("This place is not as holy as it once was")?
Wow, some fantastic points there! I never thought about how Garrett went quiet during RTC and, yes, I think there is some parallel between that mission and Sabotage at Soulforge.
I have to say, aesthetically I prefer the missions of Thief: The Dark Project because of the supernatural horror/threat. However, I think SaS is the better mission compared with RTC due to its scope and the breadth of stealth-focused challenges you face. Lots of running, climbing, hiding, exploring, sabotaging and (amazingly) crafting. I kind of hate that on the hardest difficulty you have to kill enemies in RTC; it feels very much like an arbitrary, gamey objective to me, rather than something Murus would actually need Garrett to do. Whereas in SaS, everything is being driven by need and the constant presence of Karras's madness; the desperation of the moment.
That said, to this day, I refuse to divide Thief 1 and Thief 2 in terms of preference. Both are excellent and both provide different kinds of quintessential stealth gaming moments. They are one story in two distinct parts. I might one day 'rank' the missions for funsies, but if I sit down and play either game I'm a very happy person :D
Thanks for taking the time to leave such a detailed comment on a 6-year-old video!
@@StealthDocs Thanks for taking the time to read it and engage in discussion. It shows passion, in a series that we both significant attachment to. And yes, I also love the supernatural elements in Thief 1.
I actually started with and inherited Deadly Shadows. I was terrified of the zombies imprisoned by the Hammerites in the mission where you steal the Builder's Chalice. I loved the pagans and their monsters down in the well, and blowing up rust mites and spreading moss to get protection from the factions. I loved the hag and Shalebridge Cradle, and decided to play the first two.
I really liked Thief 1, because it was much more than what I expected, and I was completely immersed. Thief 2 kinda alienated me, but I've grown fond of it over the years.
Although SaC has greater scale and variety in its challenge and design (which made it an objectively better mission), I felt that the challenges posed by RTC (when playing it like Thief and not flashbombing everything in sight) put a lot more pressure on me. There isn't really any other mission in the series that does this as effectively, and I attribute that to the Haunts and their A.I. in the first game. They wander around their routes somewhat randomly. It's something I really like, cause it keeps you on your toes. When you stop to listen out and don't hear anything, it's pretty unnerving, cause you aren't sure where the noise will come from when danger is nearby (getting pincered is a real threat in the tunnels).
Because haunts 'wander', you have to use the audio information to *predict* their pathing and intentions. That's the key thing. You don't always get to wait and learn the exact routes each one will take, especially if you just escaped a chase and are trying to get back into the stealth flow. Also, it's not just having this information to get from place to place undetected, which is something you might forget.
It's the lack of information that also makes this stressful. When you enter certain 'safe' rooms and buildings (i.e. when blessing the Holy symbol), there are times where you literally can't hear *anything* going on outside. So if you just walked in there, fumbled around, and just start exiting to hear chains rattling and potentially a ghost, it can be terrifying. You might not know where they are going either or why they came here. Maybe they just wandered in, or... they somehow detected you. And you're praying they don't wander in the room (if you turned on the power).
It's being prepared for things to go wrong on the exit route (furthered by randomized pathing) that really set this mission apart and made it so memorable for me.
Again, it just sucks that the game is asking you to just flashbomb all of this away :(.
Otherwise, it felt like pretty much everything you've been doing (Clagscleft -> Bonehoard, Sword, THC, Towers -> Lost City -> SotC -> Undercover) was meant to prepare you for this ultimate mission. It's so incredibly simple; just grab the eye and go. But even after the game taught you about haunts (since DtB if you played on expert), ghosts, zombies, navigating lit and unlit areas on a variety of surfaces, and divulging position through sound, something even then had to go wrong and offer a new problem to solve.
"It's not an easy thing to see a Keeper... especially one who does not wish to be seen."
@@StealthDocs And yes, I'd remove the haunts objective. This is the one part of the mission I agree does not fit. In fact, it is the haunts that make the mission so tense because of their awareness and aggression. When there is nothing discouraging or preventing you from killing them, why wouldn't you just run into the cathedral and lob 3 flashbombs to eliminate all the challenge and tension (and I think that this shouldn't be an option, at least not for the Haunts)?
I think they should be unkillable or very difficult to kill on expert, as the final layer of challenge before the (disappointing) final act and to contrast with the zombies who can be flashbombed.
Adding to this, I think there should potentially be a way out of the Cathedral through an upper window or something, since having this would provide another option to get away after nabbing The Eye. You wouldn't just have to wait for the deaggro and wait so long to bring brother Martello across, but it would be accompanied by the risk of being spotted on the descent. The harsh moonlight would illuminate you to the enemies below, if you weren't careful to listen closely for patrol routes below you.
A counterbalance could potentially be allowing haunts to reach you at the top floors, leaving rope arrows as more a shortcut. Therefore, dropping down leaves more pressure if you're being chased due to not having as much time to listen out.
This would tie into the vertical rooftop navigation that we had in Assassins, making the mission even more complete.
If I knew how to mod in Dromed and change enemy stats and behaviors, I would actually try to experiment with T1 OM10 to bring some of these changes and test them out. Alas...
My top 5 missions (in personal impact and enjoyment) are:
5. Sword
4. Trail of Blood
3. The Haunted Cathedral
2. Down in The Bonehoard
1. RTC
All of those I like have some flaws that bother a lot of people, but I love my beasties, platforming, challenge, and atmosphere.
"And so begins the most brutal mission Thief 2: The Metal Age has to offer"
*CACKLES IN CASING THE JOINT*
fuck that mission
This was very nice to watch. I just finished this mission last night.
Glad you enjoyed! Now... Normal? Hard? Or Expert? :D
I challenged myself to a 2 thief games with expert-no-items-bare-hands, and it happen that to achieve that you have to stay undetected most of the times, save load is a must, but I didn't use save-load at soulforge much, it was easy giving the challenge, but it became just tedious boring and chore, it doesn't test your skills for me, rather than your patience and space orientation. For testing your skills I would go for a Bank mission. Bank is the only mission that prevents me from blindfolded challenge.
Good video. I love Soulforge and don't get the hate it receives, especially from Thief fans. However, where did you get the idea that the Mechanist seminary in Eavesdropping and Soulforge are the same building? They look nothing alike, share no precise architectural elements and don't share the same layout at all. The seminary is small and hasn't been fully transformed yet (there are still Hammerite elements) while Soulforge is enormous and wholly Mechanist. It's another building entirely. Garrett wouldn't infiltrate the Mechanist seminary in Eavesdropping if it were Soulforge, he knows the place is too well guarded and Truart himself would've looked suspicious if he went to Soulforge to meet Karras, hence why that small seminary was chosen for the meeting.
I...don't know why I thought they were the same building!
I always assumed that the Seminary was Karras's base of operations, because he met with Truart there and demonstrated the power of the Masked Servants under controlled conditions, and that it was substantially upgraded *into* Soulforge over the course of the game. Given the tech under the Mechanists' control (the digging machines and Builders Children, etc.), I just assumed they were able to modify the original structure to the extent that it was virtually unrecognisable! There was a transformative nature to the Mechanists' actions that just seemed to work with that idea.
Good call, though. I never thought the two buildings were different.
I love Soulforge but I sorta understand the hate it gets. The problem with T2 is that the last third of the game is noticeably rushed due to the financial issues Looking Glass were having. So there's a lot of empty rooms, less atmosphere and less variety compared to earlier parts of the game (you even play more or less the exact same mission twice in a row, and both times take a long time to complete). So by the time players reach Soulforge they are likely to have quite a bit of Thief fatigue due to all the repetitiveness and that will color their enthusiasm for the level.
I also love the last mission in Thief 1 (Maw of Chaos) despite it's obvious disadvantages. Yes it is linear and easy, but it also has a very dense atmosphere and a great sense of descending into madness. And unlike Soulforge it doesn't run the risk of outstaying it's welcome. So imo both final missions are great but for completely different reasons.
Stealth Docs admitting you don’t know something or that you might be wrong. That’s a good trait you hardly see. Good job!
I just recently finished the entire Thief trilogy, I loved all of the games and Thief 2 had the most satisfying number of missions imo.
But, Soulforge for me was not one of them, at all...
Some of the reasons are on my end I admit, for starters, I dislike crafting... The level starts with zero directions next to a bunch of crafting stations, and so I immediately assumed I had to read every paper, to take note of what ingredients I had to mix, on what machine, to craft only The Builder knows what...
That turned me off instantly, couple that with the sense of urgency (I even though there was a time limit) and so I looked for a guide...
Of course, now I know I should have explored until I found the proper instructions, but I didn't want to lose hours to do what I assumed to be a timed crafting mission (which I dislike).
Then the level itself, almost everything is an empty room or corridor with few noticeable landmarks, its bland, boring, I know it kinda fits the theme but I'm sure something more could be done here.
Mechanical enemies roam everywhere making a detection almost a death sentence, you'll be rationing supplies like never before due to the length of the level, so for me it just became an aimless boring slog of a level... Besides Karra's lines.
The only level I disliked more than this was the Thieves Guild (the only other level I also looked a guide)...
So yeah, I even prefer the Maw of Chaos from Thief 1, sure that level is a linear cake walk, but at least I felt like I deserved it after all the taffin I've been trough, the level was also visually appealing and memorable with some weirdly unique set-pieces (sliding down ice(?), swimming floating roof water and so on), it was a confident final lap. Soulforge in comparison felt like running head straight into the finish-line, if the finish-line was a brick wall they expected you to break by bashing it with your skull.
In short, Maw of Chaos way too easy, Soulforge way too hard, the Keepers didn't do their job here balancing this shit out.
I was going to say, you only visit Soulforge once in the game.
Great stuff. In depth, knowledgeable and passionate. Fantastic production values as usual. Keep up the good work :)
Thanks! I will. :)
I love your video. I've finished this level yesterday and I must say it was pretty difficult for me. There was some places really difficult to get, not even to do not get spotted but to stayed alive. On the beggining on this level I've chosen my route, missing the Plan Room when I could find info about antennas, but I've figured out that I need switch them from A to B on myself. And even I was playing on Expert difficulty I've switched all of them. Last thing to do was manufacture this device to plug it into the correct place. After watched last cutscene I was not satisfied, because I think I didn't exactly get what happened inside of this Cathedral when all of robots were inside. Why this servant released gas? Why did it exploded? And also - who was that guy in the end saying about writting the story in books?
Glad you enjoyed the level!
I can't really describe the whole plot of the game and I'm not sure why the ending didn't land with you. I can only think that maybe you skipped some cutscenes or didn't pick up on narrative elements within each mission? Very unusual.
Still looking for answers?
@@AB-dm1wz Yeah, if you could explain some of those things ..
Great analysis. This mission delivered a feeling like no other. It's almost like you're being sent into the Death Star to destroy it all by yourself.
Stealth Game Changers | Shalebridge Cradle
That would be awesome
Shalebridge Cradle, The Sword, Return to the Cathedral (ie. Ravenholm before Ravenholm ) - hell, even Bafford's Manor as an example of how to do opening missions right. The Thief series is just packed with mission design worth examining.
I just finished playing the Almighty Thief Trilogy.... And... Man... What an amazing experience.....they just dont make games like that anymore
Hey man brutal video!!! So passionate... I love these stealth videos!! Saludos desde Colombia!!!
This mission was really challenging for me and im like a stealth game maniac but this one... Damn
Wow, this reminds me so much of bioshock an andrew rian🤭 great video!
It's a good video, I think. While I can't say I prefer Thief 2 outright, I also can't deny how awesome Soulforge is. While Thief 2 had a rushed development, to me it doesn't seem like it affected the last level, which I'm grateful for. Oh, and you can destroy the robots with gas arrows? I guess I'll use that in my next playthrough then.
Actually that mission was quite irritating due to the hapless crafting mechanics. The best stealth mission in Thief II has to be First City Bank imho.
A valid choice. I also loved the 3rd mission when you're infiltrating a City Watch station to frame an Officer. Lots of little stories to discover, as well as secret passages. Angelwatch is also a personal favourite, just for its rooftops section.
Soulforge represents a culmination in the story and characters, and presents the toughest challenges (including the rickety crafting system), and I love that stuff too.
I take all the supplies that I can and build as many trip bombs as I can with them, to kill as many sentries as possible. It makes things easier. Strangely: I don't fear the human enemies, they are really easy to deal with in comparison to the bomb throwing monsterlike sentries walking around. "Be aware, a misguided soul!" is like a deathsentence when one of the smaller sentries sees you.
It's a nice touch that the mission gives players the means to fashion their own equipment to deal directly with the threats. I didn't always have the patience, so often I'd sneak past enemies if I could.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
You're welcome. It's a well written video that you made with this (I like those thought out and actually written narratives the most, because the casual ones are a bit shaky, so yours has a lot more value because of that). I mostly like the original version of a game better than the localized one. But in the German localization they used the german dubbing voices for famous actors. Gorman Truart has the voice of Dolph Lundgren and Kurt Russell (he sounds more powerful and "manly" in German, whereas in the english version he sounds like an english lord, which probably fits his character better, because Truart is somewhat arrogant too, which is entirely missing in the German localization). Karras has the devious dubbing voice of John Malkovich. The decision of the localization team to use the dubbing voices of famous actors increased the value of the experience enormously. That's why I rather play the German localization, because the voices are a bit more "epic" than in the original english version. Interesting fact: Karras doesn't have a speech impediment in the German localization. I was surprised to find out that this was actually one of his defining traits of his character overall (it's indicative of a low self-esteem that he tries to compensate with his genius intellect and megalomanic ambitions) - some things just get lost or wantonly omitted in the localizations, I guess.
now, thats exactly the kind of video which screams "Subscribe" without having to scream subscribe all over video... =)
You have a nose for quality, Sir. :D
another spectacular video Doc,
cant wait for more Game Changer Episodes and Part 3 of the retrospective
You might have to. This video's title animation alone nearly killed me! Thanks for watching and for the support, as ever. :)
Stealth Docs don't worry ,if there is one thing stealth games taught me, is how to be patient >:)
Well done with this video about one of Thief's most difficult missions. I never managed to get to Soulforge, unfortunately. Kudos to those who have in the past.
Peace be upon Viktoria.
Happy New Year,
Always anxiously awaiting your next episodes
-Your Fan
It's coming! Thanks for your patience and Happy New Year!
Godspeed to you man!! i wish the best for you and your videos!!
if theres anyone who knows and respects this genre of interactive art its you!
here's something i want to share with you to commemorate the new year
th-cam.com/video/hXUono66wxI/w-d-xo.html who are the cool guys? the guys that play action games? or stealth games?
@@StealthDocs Well i guess you didn't like my tier list idea.
either way i hope youre doing allright and that your next video is't hitting any stagnating snags.
also i've been seeing some rather stimulating stealth videos that i think you might actually enjoy
th-cam.com/video/ZZlBaK7e5bs/w-d-xo.html
This mission kicked my ass very hard ;-; . Took me more than four hours of recored gameplay (probably twice the real time) to complete it. I can't forget the feeling of despair, dreadness and madness, the ''How iam going to do this?" "Where to go?". Awesome video. I have to say, your channel is amazing ^-^
Cheers! I'll be making more videos like this one, so I hope you'll stay tuned. Thanks for watching.
I was so busy trying to finish this mission so fast that I never got to experience the overall brilliance of it. I should've treated my playthrough with more respect lol.
Excellent writing and production values. How are you not larger, man?
Every TH-camr starts with a small following! Remember, Jesus had only 12 to begin with... ;)
Thanks for watching and the compliment!
you can find karras. he's in a special room that you can't get in near the office areas and you can see him through the glass
Great video loved it,you earned a sub.
Great work man! I hope you can do:
Stealth Game Changers | The Haunted Cathedral (Thief Gold) / Stealth Game Changers | Shalebridge Cradle (Thief DS)
Me, too! Though for now I'm thinking I'll make one Stealth Game Changer video and one Stealth Game Failure (i.e. "what they did badly") video for a few games series (Thief, Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, Hitman, etc.), just to avoid leaning towards any single one.
However, before that happens I have to finish HoS Part 3. Hopefully soon! Thanks for watching. :)
Very nice! the stealth games in general are a very dificult to define correctly. Keep going! Cheers!
Nice content, you need more subs
Honestly the level made me feel kinda bad for Karras. He's so insane that he's surrounded himself only with machines that are modeled to be as similar to him as possible. Clearly he wants to be heard given how much he rambles on. The longer the level went on the more I felt sympathetic to this incredibly lonely lunatic.
Can't help but feel there's a bit of a bit of a parallel to be drawn between the social isolation of both Garrett and Karras. Thief II is a lonely game but Soulforge is just alien in how desolate it feels.
Interesting. I don't feel even a little bit sorry for him! Karras was heard. People listened to him and indulged him, and he took advantage of everyone to fuel his messianic delusions, killing and persecuting a lot of other people in the process. His only expression of remorse is when he realises, right at the end, that his plans have backfired.
Regarding the "crafting system" and the ability to experiment, I don't find the "experimenting" to be anything worth praising. I used up all my raw materials to make the things that I had blueprints for, and it seems to me that one would have to fail MANY times as you tried to make new items without blueprints for them, and that seems like a massive waste of time IMHO. But an excellent video, in any case. I'm currently replaying TMA once again, like visiting an old friend.
A fair point. :)
I don't think I praise the crafting; I even say at one point that it's not very good. Still, it added something new and interesting to the experience, and I thought that was worth making a note of.
It goes without saying that the idea was poorly executed compared with modern games.
@@StealthDocs BTW, are there any secrets to getting around "the turret room"? That place beats the hell out of me every time.
@@Torgo1969 That room is all about angles. You can disable some of the turrets using fire arrows to shoot the big explosives, but there are parts where you just have to run for cover.
@@StealthDocs Thanks. I'll have to save up some fire arrows for that hellish room. I'm making my way thru TMA once again lately, I just finished robbing the bank, haha!
man, i didn't even know you could use water arrows on those mechanical sentries. Imagine how much easier that level would have been had i known that. Sheesh.
Wow. You must've been hammering that Quicksave button! There was a note in the Seminary mission ("Eavesdropping") that explained the Builder's Children were vulnerable to water if it found its way into their boiler units, so water arrows became my favourite toys. I didn't know gas arrows worked too until reading about it on several guides, but being 10x more expensive than their water counterparts renders them a last-resort weapon.
Also, thanks for watching! :D
I always use the lift in the northern apse to crush them, simply lure them in with a noise arrow.
Probably one of my favourite level in T2 but Life of the party and Blackmail were still better :P
3:50 you got mixed up, that first place is the eastport mechanist seminary, not soulforge
Thanks! Already made aware in other comments, see my response above.
excellent. subbed here. thanks
This mission was one of the hardest I've ever played in a video game. I believe I only ever completed it once and if I remember correctly took over 6 hours. Very frustrating. There's no cheats for Thief 2 either so you can't even stick God Mode on just to get the game finished.
That first time... :D
To be fair, I think quick-saving is Thief's god mode.
3:44 You claim that the Mechanist Seminary at Eastport was transformed into Soulforge Cathedral. Although there are similarities, I cannot find neither in the game nor in the wiki any info backing up this claim. Do you have a source where this is stated/hinted at?
My mistake; see other comments, it's a separate location. I read a bit too much into the opening area, which looks a lot like the chapel at the seminary.
@@StealthDocs Hi, thank you for your quick response! I absolutely agree, there are similarities. Anyway, I enjoyed your video a lot. I would be excited for more content on Thief 1-3 (Thief 4 not so much), like Constantines Mansion, Undercover, First City Bank and Trust, Life of the Party or Shalebridge Cradle. If you ever feel like revisiting the Thief series, I think those would easily qualify for an in-depth look :)
I’ll never forget the first time I played this game, I could only laugh at the sheer size of this level, it’s ridiculous. This is one of the greatest games ever created, but my God 😂😂
Great stuff my friend. I think you'll see your views rise as you move into more mainstream/current stealth titles like MGS and Assassin's Creed. Til then, I ain't gonna miss a thing.
You're right about that! I want to set up a good few videos looking at stealth games as a whole before moving into mainstream territories, maybe with a couple like this one that scrutinise more specific topics. Thanks for watching and for sticking around. :)
I hated this level to be honest lol. I managed to go through most of the game without having to resort to a walkthrough (I only REALLY got stuck on two levels iirc) but when I got to the last level it was so much more complicated that I even stopped playing the game for a while... Then my computer crashed and I lost the save and never finished the game, so I watched this level on TH-cam. The guy makes it seem so easy, but I was stuck for hours... :(
*if you ever review Hitman 2016 im sure its gonna sound alot like this guy*
th-cam.com/video/mBaZUtRiIAM/w-d-xo.html
cool video but imo you're exaggerating lol. life of the party is a cooler setpiece and casing teh joint provides a far more interesting challenge, the final level of t2 is just... mediocre and annoying to navigate