I remember back in the day with the PS2 and my sister and I slogging through the awful stealth sections of Harry Potter: Chamber of Secrets. My favourite part though is when my sister points out "Wait, doesn't harry have an invisibility cloak?" Apparently the guys making the game forgot that.
ECL28E There already is a good multiplayer stealth game, and it's free, and is available in every platform and has very low system requirements hide and seek
ECL28E At least we finally got a Ninja who's actually a Ninja and not a glorified assassin with a black leather outfit >_> Seriously Ninja Gaiden - Mark of the Ninja does everything right that is actual lore and law to a real Ninja. You just seem like a Rambo in Ninja suit...
Old AI: (ally 5 meters away is blown to pieces) "I like pie. I should eat pie tonight." Advanced AI: "You've been awfully quiet since that loud explosion, Bob." Ah the DJQuake comics, the ultimate in obscure. ^_^ I wonder if I could find those somehow.
I think the idea is generally that it is dark and they see something slightly and are unable to tell what it is or if is nothing to actually be worried about, and then as they focus they get better idea and act and hiding stops that focus before it is too late. Problem is when they keep this in pure daylight levels when people are not even far away...
that would be more realistic, but it would also destroy the game, realisticaly the guard would sound an alarm, notify about the intruder and make the entire building aware of your existence, so you just either lost the level or make it a punishing experience
Juan Moreno It is stealth, the whole point is to sneak. It would not break the game, just makes you consciously think about your situation and what you can get away with. If it is day time you have to be more careful, night allows you to be to move with more leway, have the ability to silence someone before they can set the alarm off, esc... there is a bunch of things to it. You have to capitalize on the stealth, not weaken it because it can be difficult. difficult is not a bad thing, it can be helpful, fun, and exciting.
I know, I keep coming back to contra III, but if the smallest mistake makes the entire level almost unplayable that's not a challenge, it's punishment, have you ever played ghost trick? there's a part when you have to guide someone to safety trough some guards and if you're seen you have to do it all over again, it's not skill just memorization, trial and error, and it's anoying as hell
Mark of the Ninja was an eye opener for me, specifically they "solved" the 2d stealth game problem. It's pretty damn hard to make a 2d stealth game and they did a fantastic job. Or at least it is hard to make a varied and good 2d stealth game.
I think Wind Waker did a decent job of adding stealth in the beginning with the first Forsaken Fortress run, since you lost your sword from "bad aim" already, it wasn't to hard to set a goal: get your weapon back, and then make a crazy obstacle course for you to sneak around to achieve your goal
Something that's REALLY interesting to note here as a tabletop enthusiast is that many MANY of these core elements to making good stealth gameplay are very akin to making a good game world in say, ol' fashioned Dungeons and Dragons. From dungeon crawling (where there are inherent stealth elements already present) to the more political workings of game worlds, puzzles are the way to think when designing for your players, and the more options that are available to achieve the goal, the better.
That's pretty true, even if, due to the amount of freedom my players like to have, I tend to have a more "sandbox"-based approach to world-building, letting the players chose their objectives, and creating and adapting challenges on the fly depending on what they choose to do. Some of the best puzzles are the one where the designer itself doesn't know all the solutions.
Sniper Elite has terrible stealth mechanics. In V2, enemies could spot you from 200m after your 2nd shot. It also rarely gave you multiple choices for solving a problem. SE3 then tries way too much to compete with traditional stealth games, not realizing how shallow the gameplay is when you don't use a sniper rifle. Aside from terrible AI that can hear you walking from 40m and through walls, but doesn't care about shots from a high-power rifle in a different part of level, the game's got clunky controls and very simplistic medium to close range combat mechanics, yet it often encourages you to use them. The levels are wider, but also shorter and with more obstacles, buildings and multiple smaller areas, which makes sniping a lot less convenient. Instead of improving the sniping mechanics, they tried to become the next Splinter Cell or MGS and failed.
+ThatGuyInATrenchCoat That's harder than it sounds, and, to my knowledge, usually requires either a sizable budget or a simple interface like Mark of the Ninja, not to mention skilled developers.
+Lost One Nope, that's an easy way to fail a stealth game. The AI is part of the puzzle, and should be understandable. It shouldnt be: I heard something, better call the police, lock down the building and go through it bit by bit, until I find it. If the AI in a stealth-game was any good, you would be unable to win. It'd be like a version of pacman in which the ghosts cooperate perfectly. You wouldn't even be able to finish the first level.
The save anywhere feature in Dishonored was what made the game really great, it allowed for trail and error and working out the best tactic to get past a certain part of the level.
That's probably one of the reasons why Sly 2 was so good at introducing me at stealth games and loving them. While it didn't give many options to solve problems and ended up as more of a 3D platform game, it was fast paced. Sly was agile as hell and could get almost anywhere, and while enemies had short view ranges, they could come from you back and spot you, so you had to watch you back and if you wanted to feel safe and wait you had to get to some high spot far from enemies.
Intelligent AI that play by the game's rule for one. The rest is being given the ability to get in, around and out again without a peep. I've had so many people saying how sneaking around and quietly dominating the preverbial battlefield is the cowards way....but the thing is it takes a lot more skill and thought to be effectively sneaky than it does to run in and take the enemy head on. Sometimes a scalpel is more effective than a hammer. I guess thats why MGS V's gameplay was so sublime
TotallyToonsTV As a MGS3 major fanboy, that's what really just turned me onto the genre. The idea that not only in the story but on the actual battlefield are the odds wildly stacked against your favor and you must use creativity to overcome that challenge.
+Denise Holmes To be fair, the Spy is actually really rewarding if you can get the hang of him, but yeah, it took me so goddamn long to do that, and even now I get spy-checked fairly frequently.
To me its good when a stealth game rewards you for being sneaky by not having to deal with problems that you would encounter if you just ran into the enemy, not outright killing you if you are found.
Dennis Claros True what you said. However, the stealth and action were broken up. In a beat em up section, you couldn't stealth, and the stealth sections allowed you to solve it with outright violence, but they have guns, so yeah.
I think the Sly games do it awesomely by only having a few forced Stealth sections, but making it easier to get through most of the game if you remember to stay unseen.
Watching this was interesting. I've always wondered why the stealth segments in Zelda games have always felt annoying, and this would be why. On the flipside, I don't play many stealth games, but the Sly Cooper series is one of my favourites of all time. This video actually showed me why Murray tends to be the lest interesting character to play as in those games. (Outside of boss fights) It's because he basically turned things into an action game, which goes against the genre. Playing as Sly is, like you said, all about using the environment and his ways of traversing it to overcome enemies stronger than you. Same with Bentley, but replace "environment" with "gadgets". Murray actually being about to got toe-to-toe with enemies and, in particular, having almost nothing to fear from being seen tended to make things less interesting. Anyone else who's played the series, I know you probably pick Murray the least when given the option of who to explore the hub levels with. Carmalita in the 4th game had the same problem, but even worse. I almost never found myself using her by choice because she was just TOO powerful. (I actually found Tenesee Kid fun to play as though, but probably for different reasons)
I agree, the Grapple Cam was one of my favourite things about Sly 3 (the sheer number of insults was also hilarious), as was the Penelope escort mission.
Dishonored is mine -3- and no im not just saying it because it was mentioned in the video. i love the story of the game, the multiple endings and how each makes you feel after you do that. i like how the game gives you multiple ways to do something and even if you want you can go through the game killing NOBODY! theres ways to take down targets without killing them! i love that! THE ASSASSIN WHO KILLED NOBODY -3- 11/10. dishonored's a must try for any one who likes stealth games, and made me start liking stealth games more.
The Hitman series has been one of my favorites in this genre, though it seems every time they took a step forward on something, they also took a step back on something else. Also, when a level gets too linear, you really feel it as the majority flood you with options.
the thing i loved about dishonored was how fun it was to go back and re-play the game without being spotted, like i've played the game and the dlc at least 3 times and it's still fun and challenging for me, and it's always so rewarding to see that "never spotted" check mark after i completed the mission
I love it when Dishonored gets a shout out for its fantastic implementation of stealth. What was really most interesting to me about that game is how it was possible to play through like an action game, it "feels" infinitely better to play stealthily, especially if doing a clean hands playthrough.
Same reason film/writing critics don't make movies or books. They're trying to improve the industry as a whole, not just make another product whose source of greatness is a mystery.
Being caught and having to seek cover again is actually one of the funnest parts of Assassin's Creed. I now have a slighty deeper understanding as to why - and why other games fail at it.
I feel like they missed talking about the third kind of puzzle common in video games which is my personal favourite, and is excellently exampled by Gunpoint. The kind where you are given a set of tools that can be used in all kinds of scenarios, then given a challenge that, with a minimal amount of analysis, has a fairly clear solution that has to be executed in a certain way; however is very difficult to execute, and often contains difficult to foresee problems that come up when you follow the obvious method of execution. This is incredibly hard to pull off, but has an amazing pay off. It allows the player to choose whatever kind of path they like, plan it out meticulously and execute it perfectly (or fall flat and start over a million times), wing it, improvise, maybe succeed but have a fun/funny time, or find the happy middle between these two. Most people would think most good stealth games as EC describes them are like this, for example Batman Arkham City. But I don't think games like that do contain that subtle necessity for improvisation. You can wing it and win it in Arkham City if something goes wrong, for sure, but that comes more through a degree of skill in combat. Same with Far Cry 3 which gets a degree of praise for mixing action and stealth. If something goes wrong with the obvious "do this to solve this" plan, you just spray and pray. Whereas the game I mentioned, Gunpoint, forces the player to rely on quick thinking, to solve new puzzles in the moment, and be directly rewarded for understanding something about the puzzle earlier on even if they didn't think they'd need to know that for their original plan. It creates a more wholesome intellectual experience instead of either "Do exactly this to win," (Portal) or "Be good at making plans and using these tools to succeed," (Monaco) which is how I interpreted the two kinds of puzzle games Extra Credits mentioned.
honestly, i remember during my first play through, my heart was always pounding whenever i was hiding or trying to get away. It was also fairly short over the course of the gameplay, so it wasn't too big or long, but handled well.
I actually really liked the COD:AW "Sentinel" mission. I actually solved it using 3 different paths, and without killing a single person. I think it might've been a pretty good example.
I'm curious if anybody else has played the prototype for Twin Souls: Path of Shadows. The idea that stealth is about traversal reminded me of it. In PoS, you're a shadow spirit who can aim and teleport from one shadow to another. However, you can't teleport if you're caught out in the moonlight, and your powers are drained completely by standing in firelight. In this way, you're forced to weigh the disadvantages of different light sources, and you begin to see the environment in different ways as you plan out teleportation routes. The game has absolutely no combat -- only assassinations. If you approach an enemy from the front, they kill you in one hit. Furthermore, you walk incredibly slowly. While occasionally frustrating, I thought it balanced nicely with your teleportation speed. If you let yourself get caught out in the moonlight, getting back to the shadows isn't trivial and your mistake can absolutely be punished. I'd like to know what more dedicated stealth fans thought of the game though.
+Densoro Alright, so my first and so far only stealth game I have played is Mark of the Ninja. I love it, in my top 10 favorite games. I'm looking for more stealth games so I decided to play this prototype after stumbling around looking for things similar to Mark of the Ninja a few days ago. Let me say this is brilliant. It focuses on stealth, no action, and is very pretty. I love that the player can only use the powers when hiding. The character is only at an advantage when using stealth and I find that is the way stealth games should be. Excited for when it releases next year.
I love the stealth in Payday 2, because the map variations and semi-random guard pathing require you to be on point the entire time and learn how to learn how to adapt to the variations.
Dishonored was ok, but if you try to play it without killing anyone (which the narrative tells you is a good thing) I found that it was a bit lacking in the number of different ways you could do it, which made me get bored after a while and quit.
far cry 3 and 4 actually do a fantastic job of mixing both stealth and action to a reasonable degree in nearly every mission, outpost and random encounter
@@Percival917 The volcano one where you lose all your doohickeys- It's a great change of pace and allows for some interesting puzzles, though I do see why some would find the stealth to be frustrating
I like how in dishonored instead of waiting for the world to reset you have to change in your approach, now enemies are on high alert and will look were they didn't do before.
Hell, yeah. Very short iteration time. Get spotted, instant death, trying again a second later. Tough at times, but I did manage to finish it. Now trying to S-rank the levels. Not an easy task.
Hey EC Crew, I just wanted to say there is no channel I enjoy than yours. Even though I am not involved in the Gaming Industry in the slightest and don't plan to be. No point to this comment, but people don't say it enough, so thank you for all you do.
A really weird example of a game that's doing action and stealth is Hotline Miami. In a sense, the game is a stealth game as none of the enemies know that you're there until they see or hear you. It also does play a lot like a puzzle game in a way, it's about finding a path that lets you get through a group of enemies without you being blindsided. If you go through the game using only melee weapons and thrown weapons then it can become very stealth focused. Even if you use guns a lot it becomes a game of baiting enemies and playing off of their limited sight. At the same time the game encourages running through levels at breakneck speed, never slowing down until the floor you're on is completed. It opposes this idea of making waiting fun by removing waiting altogether. When it takes under a second to respawn and floors often taking under 3 minutes to complete on a successful run you get a game that encourages ramming your face into each challenge every way you can think, the consequences of failure are nonexistent. Dying in the game is extremely commonplace however, with a single hit from any attack killing you but it's balanced by the very fast respawns. Overall I think it's really interesting how the game manages to meld stealth elements with action elements in way that doesn't feel jarring. It does it so well that you don't even really realize it without putting some thought into it.
I had a lot of fun playing the first and 2nd SOCOM games. With every step you take without the alarm sounding drastically increases your chances for success.
interesting. i really hate it because i always make a plan so when it doesn't work it feels like it is the game cheating. what makes it work for you? I personally like dishonored, when something goes wrong it is most of the time because you didn't know enough and didn't look around enough. you didn't know a guard was coming or that his path would lead past the place you store bodies. stuff like that.
Actually I feel like it's the opposite. Unless you're playing mark of the ninja on NG+, there are very clear signs of if a guard will hear what you are doing, if a guard can see you in the darkness, and where light is. Extra Credits even made a video about why Mark of The Ninja never "cheats". However dishonored definitely cheats in the sense that you mean (though it's still a good game). It is very unclear on what areas are "safe" and which areas are being watched. The inclusion of a Z axis also makes finding information to conduct a plan much more complicated
Playaslaya games (almost never cheat), especially not stealth games. but how it feels always matters most. with motn everything is clear to you so a plan can never fail, so if it does it feels like the game doesn't follow its own rules. in dishonored things are harder to figure out. it takes time to find out where guards are going trough, and if they find out a guard is missing they will take over that patrol, so areas are rarely clear but there are less guards in any area. it takes time to come up with a plan that you think will work, and there are a lot of things you just have to guess and hope or look really long to figure out. I think you don't understand what i mean with that it feels like motn cheats. all the information is layed out for me, i know what is going to happen, what everyone can see, so my plan is fool proof. so when it doesn't work the only reason my head comes to is the game cheating. when in dishonored something goes wrong it most of the time has to do with someone or something you didn't know about, and if feels like your fault for not knowing about it.
@vinx.909 I disagree. Mark of the Ninja is as pure as stealth games get. ALL the information is laid out for you. You can see PRECISELY how far dogs smell, how far enemies can see, what areas are being watched etc. There are rings that show how far ANY sound you make will travel, so you can always be sure of your movements. I never felt like my plan would fail. I love Dishonored, but that game feels far more like it's "cheating" than MOTN. I don't know how far that enemy can see, or if I'm visible in this light level for instance. Even if I use dark vision, I can't see that stuff. In MOTN, there are two states of light, bright light or darkness. ALL the guards CLEARLY have cones that show not only the field of vision from their flashlight, but also the distance they can see. If i'm not standing within a light or a flashlight, I KNOW I won't be seen.
I would have liked to have heard your thoughts on the Assassin's Creed series. It's interesting because it can engage the player who likes stealth but you can also go full on action mode if you'd like. I really like the game but I always prefer the stealthy route.
Sly Cooper is great. Though the 3rd game added a lot more tools to your belt, there was something satisfying about everything, including the player, dying in one shot on the original.
I love in thief when your hiding in the shadows and the guard is walking closer and closer and your going "god please don't spot me please don't spot me" in your head and holding your breath in real life even though it doesn't impact the game just affects me so much.
I also like that in MGS2 you actually have quite some ways to defend yourself: You get several weapons and a nice cover systems, and grandes and good mobility and stuff. But the enemies just overpower you, making the punishment of being spotted feel natural rather than enforced (think Assassin's Creed. I would have done NOTHING in stealth if it was possible).
there's two type's of stealth games i'd like to see type A: you have just escaped a government facility where they bioengeneered you into a human superweapon capable of killing ANYTHING, the downside, you sacrifice your healthbar for every hit, and it doesn't regenerate, sure you CAN murder your way through but every kill will make it easier to kill you, thus giving you a pretty good incentive to not get spotted type B: apply the dark souls formula to stealth (fail a lot? game gets harder so you fail more) so every time you're spotted the game will make the guards harder and more inquisitive, you used a bush to hid once before? they'll check it out next time you disapear, this'll force the player to get good at sneaking and hiding, or stealthily dispatching guards
+Yline darksoulsfangirl I think with the right mindset you could do it out of that, basic idea, make your mooks horridly weak, but FAST and hit for a moderately good amount, and make levels LOWER your HP Cap, and then just apply limited healing and while they might not feel the loss of HP immediately, the fact that the slowly are brought down to normal starts to show as they can never heal ALL the way back up to what they started at
+Yline darksoulsfangirl you want type A? one where killing reduces your hp? simple, find a mod for a stealth game that instead of all those cruddy old guns, gives you the blood dragon killstar.
So here's a question: plenty of RPGs have rogues as a character class. Can a game be designed so that those playing as warriors get to enjoy the power fantasy of beating the crap out of enemies while those playing as rogues can have a satisfying experience sneaking around and doing roguey things? Does such a game exist? I'm currently playing through Dragon Age: Inquisition as a rogue, but most of the rogue skills relate to combat. There's no point where playing as a rogue gives you the opportunity to avoid a tough fight by sneaking past the guards, or climb up a ledge and snipe a boss character with a bow then escape without being detected. I'm not really sure if it's possible to square that sort of thing with standard RPG rules because RPGs usually give rewards for killing enemies (ie. loot and experience); all things being equal, it's usually better to storm the castle and kill everyone who stands in your way.
Phlebas I found skyrim is pretty engaging while playing a stealth class. However, you do often have to kill people, but you can evade many and just rob a store without anyone noticing for example. I always snuck up on Gaurds to then steal from them
LoTR Builders Thanks for the response. I looked into it, and I see that you actually get rewarded with XP for sneaking past enemies. I think that's an excellent idea. Rogues are incentivised to use stealth, just as (I imagine) warriors are incentivised to fight. An alternate solution would be to only grant XP for completing quests and have it so that the only lootable enemies are the ones you have to kill. That way, you can complete the quest any way you want, either going in guns blazing or sneaking in through an open window and you still get the same reward in the end.
as i understand: you want a game that could be engaging even if you play rogue-like (sneaky) or warrior-like (f*/*ing everyone around). it sounds interesting
Talenten Hanna Yeah. And I'm now trying to think about how mage classes could feel unique too. If hack 'n slash game mechancis give players the fantasy of playing a warrior and stealth game mechanics let players feel like a rogue, what sort of mechanics would capitalize on a mage's unique skills and could that be incorporated into RPGs with multiple character classes? Non-combat spells might be the key. Dispel the magical barrier, cast an illusion to walk past guards without drawing attention, charm NPCs into giving up useful plot information, remove curses and so on.
in "trine" you can make some quests using the warrior, the archer (rogue) or the mage. they try to solve the magic problem by making "the mage" a bit more like supportive character (you will use him a lot to solve the puzzles, creating artifacts to get to some places). I think games have 2 sub-classes: rogue-like or support and warrior-like or combat. If you just combine these, you will end with an "unique" character but just a mix. I find the illusion spell concept, unique. Dispelling a magical barrier as a way to advance its hard since you will have to provide antoher path to solve it for the rogue or the warrior. Creating some sort of barrier, or freezing automated devices (turrets, lasers) would be nice. Using teleport to pass without a key. a mage definitely would fit in a stealth game.
I absolutely LOVED Dishonored, and still love it to this day. Completed it on the hardest with no powers, all ghost, 0 kills (it was my 7th playthrough), but during my first time, I usually used the run and gun technique when I was in a hard situation. Both works, and both are genuinely fun and enjoyable. Oh, and the level design in Dihonored is truly fantastic, offering numerous ways to tackle/get to your objective whether you're using full-blown violenceshooting everybody, stealthy killing, or a completely non-lethal approach. IMO, 10/10 game and level design.
Nathan Fisher Except for the bit where hitting guards in the face with bamboo darts makes a sound that alerts their dogs, to which the guards respond by looking for whatever alerted the dog (their own grunt of surprise), instead of... you know, the ninja that just threw a dart in their face. But hey, most stealth games have *far* more immersion-breakers.
+Nathan Fisher Doubtful - real-world ninjas rarely donned the black garb and fancy gear for their hits: more often than not, they just disguised themselves as household servants and waited until they were alone with their target - at which point they moved in for the kill and then made a run for it.
Honestly some of my favorite stealthy motions in gaming were in action video games: Halo, Warfare games, etc. Essentially I challenge myself by not using the power weapons and took enemies down one by one w/o argoing the rest.
I think those stealth segments weren't overly engaging, and the AIs were rather dumb, but they were redeemed by the facts that they were simple, short, and not TOO bad.
One feature I love in puzzle games is the unintended solution. The first time I played Portal I got to TC 14 saw the raised platform, the stairs and the long drop and figured all the other stuff was just there to distract the player into thinking the solution was more complex than it really was. I didn't realize until I played the commentary that the more complex solution was the intended "correct" solution" and the one I found was really an accident. When you do that you feel like you are smarter than the game creators!
You're right. I'm saying that even with stealth just as an earmark, it's still extremely engaging and satisfying. For that reason, among many others, I regard Bethesda and their games as a wonderful phenomenon. It's just an opinion, and many people had unexpectedly hateful reactions to it. :P Like, what's with the negative votes? "Hey! a different opinion than ours!, let's censor it!"
Skyrim actually has really good stealth if you play as a sneak based character. At first, it's hard to go unnoticed, but you will eventually reach a point where you can take out a room of undead without being detected. The upgrades for stealth are really useful and easy to obtain, and a mix of emphasis on archery, light armor, sneak, and one handed will ensure a great stealth character.
***** Let's just make sure not to rage at anyone...ever, even fanboys. Its not a good way to get your point across, and most times it only makes people rage back. (Nobody like a rage party. >.
HellFire2034 There was also the issue of shooting a man with an arrow for the crit bonus, waiting for him to stop looking for you, then rinsing and repeating.
MGSV. When you are "caught" all hell breaks loose and if you aren't busy running, you are endlessly entertained by the pure chaos and the "wait" is filled with plenty of enemy radio calls, conversations, morters, explosions etc...
Killzone Mercenary is a good example of a game that lets you play how you want by giving you the ability to choose your own load out and making stealth just as engaging as going in guns blazing.
The farcry series is an engaging example of a stealth-action game series, because they let you choose at any point whether youre going to be quiet or loud and make it pretty rewarding either way
There should be no stealth sections in non-stealth games. The non-stealth games are played by gamers that do not like stealth. Stealth is not a part of Paper Mario or Zelda. The stealth is mild, but so are lots of the players.
that is a stupid generalization. just cause you are playing a non stealth game doesnt mean you dont like stealth it just means you're playing something else
loganbuckeye11 No it's not. Us stealth players only play metal gear and splinter cell. I don't know what call of duty means. Is it a cooking sim? Not that I would care, I only play stealth games.
Why do video games have to stay in pre-defined generes? Why label them at all? I find that labels only limit creativity, that when you can truly be free of a label is when you create something new and unique.
Wonderful episode. Great information, as usual and spot-on observations about my favorite genre. The Thief series (rest in peace Looking Glass) is still one of the best that ever was. And don't forget that Thief is the grand-pappy of all the first-person steal games. Like the new Splinter Cell? You're welcome.
barbeque sauce If AC is a brilliant stealth game then why is it that the one that is widely considered one of the best is also the one that makes the game mostly about something that is the polar opposite to stealth? (Talking about Black Flag here)
one way some games make stealth and action mix is by making situations where gunning down your enemies will be harder and more time consuming than going stealth, but if it fails, there is always plan B and it gets even better when you can hide during plan B and try to pick your enemies off stealthily to make the big fight easier
This is exactly why I love infamous. The ONE game I can think of that actually manages to swap between the two genres, depending on the players prefered playstyle, and the good/evil thing depends on weather you're going in action gun pewpew style, and killing innocent people, or stealthing your way to the enemy back, and killing them off one by one. ( I prefer the ladder.)
I've been playing a game called Sword with Sauce, and it has good stealth. You can secretly take out enemies with all manner of weapons, and the traversal is fun. One of the best parts is failure at the stealth. You can run around a corner, grapple to a ledge, and wait until they look somewhere else. (They don't go back to the unnoticed state) Alternatively you can start fighting your way through (Unless you're playing the game mode where being detected isn't allowed.) using your tools to kill off your enemies, and it has fun tools for that. From your typical katana or bow and arrow to Captain America's mighty shield there are fun ways to take down your enemies.
When you mentioned stealth games being about succeeding despite a sense of disempowerment, I immediately thought of the Scarecrow encounters in Batman Arkham Asylum. Depending on your playstyle, stealth is somewhat optional through most of the game, but these sections strip you of all your power and put you in a situation where you have to hide or die. And it works really well, partly because you're engaged by the surreal-ness of the situation itself, and partly because it feels extremely rewarding to defeat Scarecrow in the end, giving you back that feeling of empowerment that comes with being Batman. It helps too that the mechanics aren't hard to figure out (you die in one hit if you're spotted, but his line-of-sight and patrol patterns are very straightforward.)
I remember infiltrating an enemy base commanding small squad in planetside 2 and what a rush it was avoiding enemy soldiers to reach the capture points. It was a real scenario with real players on both sides.
I think this is why multiplayer stealth games are so fun, like Ultimate Assassin on Roblox. There is no set guard path. There's a big problem and a set of tools. You could charge in there and take the guards as fast as you can, or systematically chip away at them. It leaves a nice broad spectrum of things you can do. As a guard or target the experience is radically different, but fun in and of itself. I think that's why that kind of multiplayer stealth game works, and you guys are right as ever.
Wow. This explanation of stealth vs action gameplay and the contradictions involved made me really consider what a gameplay masterpiece the Batman: Arkham series is. That it is able to combine both without feeling jarring.
COD:MW got its stealth section right. It was amazing, I literally loved waiting and replayed the section countless times. Somehow tey managed to beat splinter cell for me, except pandora tomorrow
Its for the reasons covered in this video that Assassin's Creed I is possibly my favourite game. You spend your time exploring, pickpocketing and protecting innocents and you are rewarded with bits of information about the upcoming assassination like the locations of archers, the location of your target and even things like where a useful piece of scafolding is that will make your escape easier. You can act on the information however you like. Sure there were flaws but the idea was great
The major theme of the whole game is about craving power. Power for Corvo is manifested in the form of his lethal abilities, his weapons and combat-focused spells. This results in an after-effect of spreading the plague in Dunwall as more people die. Meanwhile, the non-lethal approach minimises the spread of plague (the right choice), however is not as thrilling. While I think some stealth mechanics could be a bit better, the relationship between the lethal and non-lethal playstyles worked great
One game that comes to mind with doing the transition between a stealth level during a domination game pretty well is LoZ: Wind Waker. You lose your sword, and suddenly you need to figure out how to sneak by. Multiple solutions exist, and you get thrown in jail if you failed.
The Sly Cooper series is a great franchise of stealth games. They're not that hard and generally you can survive getting spotted and attacked, even beat the bad guys that spotted you, but it still feels quite rewarding and satisfying.
I remember back in the day with the PS2 and my sister and I slogging through the awful stealth sections of Harry Potter: Chamber of Secrets. My favourite part though is when my sister points out "Wait, doesn't harry have an invisibility cloak?"
Apparently the guys making the game forgot that.
the best stealth game is sneaking by youngsters in pokemon
Yes 😂
What do you mean? (I don't play Pokemon)
people will run up and force you to fight if you are in their line of sight so a lot of people try to walk behind them to avoid the fights
jefferkid "you can do this red, just sneak up behind him and, crap!, now I HAVE to fight his Slowpoke!" -Red
jefferkid haha, yes, i am an expert at that, including timing for people people who turn, randomly or in a specific way
Ghosting through a base in MGSV on a Subsistence mission was hands down the most intense/rewarding stealth I've ever played.
"What makes a good stealth game"
Multipla- *gunshot*
Actually Splinter Cell did multiplayer quite well with spies vs mercs
ECL28E
There already is a good multiplayer stealth game, and it's free, and is available in every platform and has very low system requirements
hide and seek
ECL28E
At least we finally got a Ninja who's actually a Ninja and not a glorified assassin with a black leather outfit >_>
Seriously Ninja Gaiden - Mark of the Ninja does everything right that is actual lore and law to a real Ninja. You just seem like a Rambo in Ninja suit...
Joseph Charles But the story is so fucking boring .-.
+Joseph Charles (FDFXD) it is more like hidden objects game, as you can't really move very much. Thus boring.
It must be really easy to get past laser alarms when you have no limbs.
And can fly...
Rayman approves
I give you a thumb up... and ironically even the thumb is not connect to any limbs
Because it's not like you need to be able to walk or anything
Still waiting for a stealth game where guards notice the guy who was standing 5 meters away disappeared after they turned around for 5 sec.
Old AI: (ally 5 meters away is blown to pieces) "I like pie. I should eat pie tonight."
Advanced AI: "You've been awfully quiet since that loud explosion, Bob."
Ah the DJQuake comics, the ultimate in obscure. ^_^ I wonder if I could find those somehow.
I think the idea is generally that it is dark and they see something slightly and are unable to tell what it is or if is nothing to actually be worried about, and then as they focus they get better idea and act and hiding stops that focus before it is too late. Problem is when they keep this in pure daylight levels when people are not even far away...
that would be more realistic, but it would also destroy the game, realisticaly the guard would sound an alarm, notify about the intruder and make the entire building aware of your existence, so you just either lost the level or make it a punishing experience
Juan Moreno
It is stealth, the whole point is to sneak. It would not break the game, just makes you consciously think about your situation and what you can get away with. If it is day time you have to be more careful, night allows you to be to move with more leway, have the ability to silence someone before they can set the alarm off, esc... there is a bunch of things to it. You have to capitalize on the stealth, not weaken it because it can be difficult. difficult is not a bad thing, it can be helpful, fun, and exciting.
I know, I keep coming back to contra III, but if the smallest mistake makes the entire level almost unplayable that's not a challenge, it's punishment, have you ever played ghost trick? there's a part when you have to guide someone to safety trough some guards and if you're seen you have to do it all over again, it's not skill just memorization, trial and error, and it's anoying as hell
Mark of the Ninja was an eye opener for me, specifically they "solved" the 2d stealth game problem. It's pretty damn hard to make a 2d stealth game and they did a fantastic job. Or at least it is hard to make a varied and good 2d stealth game.
I think Wind Waker did a decent job of adding stealth in the beginning with the first Forsaken Fortress run, since you lost your sword from "bad aim" already, it wasn't to hard to set a goal: get your weapon back, and then make a crazy obstacle course for you to sneak around to achieve your goal
Giving the player tools and mutliple solutions is also done really well in the Hitman series.
Mark of the Ninja.... stealth done right...
I still love playing the new game plus mode
Something that's REALLY interesting to note here as a tabletop enthusiast is that many MANY of these core elements to making good stealth gameplay are very akin to making a good game world in say, ol' fashioned Dungeons and Dragons. From dungeon crawling (where there are inherent stealth elements already present) to the more political workings of game worlds, puzzles are the way to think when designing for your players, and the more options that are available to achieve the goal, the better.
That's pretty true, even if, due to the amount of freedom my players like to have, I tend to have a more "sandbox"-based approach to world-building, letting the players chose their objectives, and creating and adapting challenges on the fly depending on what they choose to do. Some of the best puzzles are the one where the designer itself doesn't know all the solutions.
I'd say Sniper elite is a quite good example of stealth, considering that you really have to use a loud-ass weapon while remaining "sneaky."
Sniper Elite has terrible stealth mechanics. In V2, enemies could spot you from 200m after your 2nd shot. It also rarely gave you multiple choices for solving a problem. SE3 then tries way too much to compete with traditional stealth games, not realizing how shallow the gameplay is when you don't use a sniper rifle. Aside from terrible AI that can hear you walking from 40m and through walls, but doesn't care about shots from a high-power rifle in a different part of level, the game's got clunky controls and very simplistic medium to close range combat mechanics, yet it often encourages you to use them. The levels are wider, but also shorter and with more obstacles, buildings and multiple smaller areas, which makes sniping a lot less convenient. Instead of improving the sniping mechanics, they tried to become the next Splinter Cell or MGS and failed.
Max Payne I can't argue with you, Max, with your drug addiction and your bullet time-y gameplay XD
Sniper Elite was more about getting a good angle.
It's excruciating to achieve a window perfectly hidden with a clear line of sight on a target.
How to make a good stealth game:
Enemy AI that wasn't dropped on it's head as a child.
+ThatGuyInATrenchCoat That's harder than it sounds, and, to my knowledge, usually requires either a sizable budget or a simple interface like Mark of the Ninja, not to mention skilled developers.
That's easier said then done.
+Sean Murphy I was going to say that! Thank you.
+Lost One Nope, that's an easy way to fail a stealth game. The AI is part of the puzzle, and should be understandable. It shouldnt be: I heard something, better call the police, lock down the building and go through it bit by bit, until I find it.
If the AI in a stealth-game was any good, you would be unable to win. It'd be like a version of pacman in which the ghosts cooperate perfectly. You wouldn't even be able to finish the first level.
+Lost One More than Smart AI you want, flexible and Interesting AI.
The save anywhere feature in Dishonored was what made the game really great, it allowed for trail and error and working out the best tactic to get past a certain part of the level.
That's probably one of the reasons why Sly 2 was so good at introducing me at stealth games and loving them. While it didn't give many options to solve problems and ended up as more of a 3D platform game, it was fast paced. Sly was agile as hell and could get almost anywhere, and while enemies had short view ranges, they could come from you back and spot you, so you had to watch you back and if you wanted to feel safe and wait you had to get to some high spot far from enemies.
Intelligent AI that play by the game's rule for one. The rest is being given the ability to get in, around and out again without a peep. I've had so many people saying how sneaking around and quietly dominating the preverbial battlefield is the cowards way....but the thing is it takes a lot more skill and thought to be effectively sneaky than it does to run in and take the enemy head on. Sometimes a scalpel is more effective than a hammer.
I guess thats why MGS V's gameplay was so sublime
TotallyToonsTV As a MGS3 major fanboy, that's what really just turned me onto the genre. The idea that not only in the story but on the actual battlefield are the odds wildly stacked against your favor and you must use creativity to overcome that challenge.
0:35 being the tf2 spy in a nutshell
+Denise Holmes
To be fair, the Spy is actually really rewarding if you can get the hang of him, but yeah, it took me so goddamn long to do that, and even now I get spy-checked fairly frequently.
To me its good when a stealth game rewards you for being sneaky by not having to deal with problems that you would encounter if you just ran into the enemy, not outright killing you if you are found.
Payday 2
How to make a good hybrid between action and stealth:
Arkham series. 'Nuff said.
***** Hey, that's how you play man.
For me, the tactic I use depends on the situation.
Unless I can use the Batmobile.
Dennis Claros What about Payday. Would you consider that game as a good hybrid between loud (action) and stealth based on your setup/build?
danmaster99 That too.
Dennis Claros True what you said. However, the stealth and action were broken up.
In a beat em up section, you couldn't stealth, and the stealth sections allowed you to solve it with outright violence, but they have guns, so yeah.
Kinos141 Still, can't deny I had fun with it.
I think the Sly games do it awesomely by only having a few forced Stealth sections, but making it easier to get through most of the game if you remember to stay unseen.
I remember playing metal gear and having my hands sweating and being nervous after being caught.
That's what I want in stealth games.
Watching this was interesting. I've always wondered why the stealth segments in Zelda games have always felt annoying, and this would be why.
On the flipside, I don't play many stealth games, but the Sly Cooper series is one of my favourites of all time. This video actually showed me why Murray tends to be the lest interesting character to play as in those games. (Outside of boss fights) It's because he basically turned things into an action game, which goes against the genre. Playing as Sly is, like you said, all about using the environment and his ways of traversing it to overcome enemies stronger than you. Same with Bentley, but replace "environment" with "gadgets". Murray actually being about to got toe-to-toe with enemies and, in particular, having almost nothing to fear from being seen tended to make things less interesting. Anyone else who's played the series, I know you probably pick Murray the least when given the option of who to explore the hub levels with.
Carmalita in the 4th game had the same problem, but even worse. I almost never found myself using her by choice because she was just TOO powerful. (I actually found Tenesee Kid fun to play as though, but probably for different reasons)
I agree, the Grapple Cam was one of my favourite things about Sly 3 (the sheer number of insults was also hilarious), as was the Penelope escort mission.
Stealth on wind waker x_x HATED IT
Sly 2 is my personal favorite game of all time
Dishonored is mine -3- and no im not just saying it because it was mentioned in the video. i love the story of the game, the multiple endings and how each makes you feel after you do that. i like how the game gives you multiple ways to do something and even if you want you can go through the game killing NOBODY! theres ways to take down targets without killing them! i love that! THE ASSASSIN WHO KILLED NOBODY -3- 11/10. dishonored's a must try for any one who likes stealth games, and made me start liking stealth games more.
The Hitman series has been one of my favorites in this genre, though it seems every time they took a step forward on something, they also took a step back on something else. Also, when a level gets too linear, you really feel it as the majority flood you with options.
the thing i loved about dishonored was how fun it was to go back and re-play the game without being spotted, like i've played the game and the dlc at least 3 times and it's still fun and challenging for me, and it's always so rewarding to see that "never spotted" check mark after i completed the mission
MGSV: TPP does this excellently.
I love it when Dishonored gets a shout out for its fantastic implementation of stealth. What was really most interesting to me about that game is how it was possible to play through like an action game, it "feels" infinitely better to play stealthily, especially if doing a clean hands playthrough.
After a week of watching your videos, I started asking myself why you make youtube videos and don't make video games..
+Nathan de Smet The writer does. He's a consultant for game developers.
The writer does.
+Gravity Dog who's the writer ?
+TheMister Shaggy James makes games and he writes the script.
Same reason film/writing critics don't make movies or books. They're trying to improve the industry as a whole, not just make another product whose source of greatness is a mystery.
Being caught and having to seek cover again is actually one of the funnest parts of Assassin's Creed. I now have a slighty deeper understanding as to why - and why other games fail at it.
I feel like they missed talking about the third kind of puzzle common in video games which is my personal favourite, and is excellently exampled by Gunpoint. The kind where you are given a set of tools that can be used in all kinds of scenarios, then given a challenge that, with a minimal amount of analysis, has a fairly clear solution that has to be executed in a certain way; however is very difficult to execute, and often contains difficult to foresee problems that come up when you follow the obvious method of execution. This is incredibly hard to pull off, but has an amazing pay off. It allows the player to choose whatever kind of path they like, plan it out meticulously and execute it perfectly (or fall flat and start over a million times), wing it, improvise, maybe succeed but have a fun/funny time, or find the happy middle between these two. Most people would think most good stealth games as EC describes them are like this, for example Batman Arkham City. But I don't think games like that do contain that subtle necessity for improvisation. You can wing it and win it in Arkham City if something goes wrong, for sure, but that comes more through a degree of skill in combat. Same with Far Cry 3 which gets a degree of praise for mixing action and stealth. If something goes wrong with the obvious "do this to solve this" plan, you just spray and pray. Whereas the game I mentioned, Gunpoint, forces the player to rely on quick thinking, to solve new puzzles in the moment, and be directly rewarded for understanding something about the puzzle earlier on even if they didn't think they'd need to know that for their original plan. It creates a more wholesome intellectual experience instead of either "Do exactly this to win," (Portal) or "Be good at making plans and using these tools to succeed," (Monaco) which is how I interpreted the two kinds of puzzle games Extra Credits mentioned.
honestly, i remember during my first play through, my heart was always pounding whenever i was hiding or trying to get away. It was also fairly short over the course of the gameplay, so it wasn't too big or long, but handled well.
I think you guys should revisit this concept now that The Phantom Pain is out, I mean honestly you cant ask for a better execution of stealth gameplay
I actually really liked the COD:AW "Sentinel" mission. I actually solved it using 3 different paths, and without killing a single person. I think it might've been a pretty good example.
I'm curious if anybody else has played the prototype for Twin Souls: Path of Shadows. The idea that stealth is about traversal reminded me of it. In PoS, you're a shadow spirit who can aim and teleport from one shadow to another. However, you can't teleport if you're caught out in the moonlight, and your powers are drained completely by standing in firelight. In this way, you're forced to weigh the disadvantages of different light sources, and you begin to see the environment in different ways as you plan out teleportation routes.
The game has absolutely no combat -- only assassinations. If you approach an enemy from the front, they kill you in one hit. Furthermore, you walk incredibly slowly. While occasionally frustrating, I thought it balanced nicely with your teleportation speed. If you let yourself get caught out in the moonlight, getting back to the shadows isn't trivial and your mistake can absolutely be punished.
I'd like to know what more dedicated stealth fans thought of the game though.
+Densoro Alright, so my first and so far only stealth game I have played is Mark of the Ninja. I love it, in my top 10 favorite games. I'm looking for more stealth games so I decided to play this prototype after stumbling around looking for things similar to Mark of the Ninja a few days ago. Let me say this is brilliant. It focuses on stealth, no action, and is very pretty. I love that the player can only use the powers when hiding. The character is only at an advantage when using stealth and I find that is the way stealth games should be. Excited for when it releases next year.
I love the stealth in Payday 2, because the map variations and semi-random guard pathing require you to be on point the entire time and learn how to learn how to adapt to the variations.
i loved dishonored. i love the setting: steampunk mixed with sci fi and fantasy
Dishonored was ok, but if you try to play it without killing anyone (which the narrative tells you is a good thing) I found that it was a bit lacking in the number of different ways you could do it, which made me get bored after a while and quit.
far cry 3 and 4 actually do a fantastic job of mixing both stealth and action to a reasonable degree in nearly every mission, outpost and random encounter
I actually think that the stealth section in Skyward Sword was pretty fun. It was a nice change of pace and had some pretty cool puzzles.
SlurpiFroggiGaming That was possibly my favorite part of the game! It wasn't stealth in a traditional sense though.
The Silent Realm, or the volcano one where you lose all your doohickeys?
@@Percival917 The volcano one where you lose all your doohickeys- It's a great change of pace and allows for some interesting puzzles, though I do see why some would find the stealth to be frustrating
I like how in dishonored instead of waiting for the world to reset you have to change in your approach, now enemies are on high alert and will look were they didn't do before.
In my opinion, the best stealth section in a non stealth game is the Zero Suit segment in Metroid Zero Mission.
***** It might be because i don't usually play stealth games, but i'd never felt that tense in a game. No horror games could match it.
Mgsv goes without saying as an excellent example of using tools to complete an objective with your own creativity. Great analyzation, guys!
This is why playing the Fallouts with almost nothing but a knife is so enjoyable.
Stealth Bastard is a perfect example of everything you described.
Hell, yeah. Very short iteration time. Get spotted, instant death, trying again a second later. Tough at times, but I did manage to finish it. Now trying to S-rank the levels. Not an easy task.
Me: -quietly animating with EC in the backgroundEC: says "professor Layton"Me:-head pops up-wHAT
Hey EC Crew, I just wanted to say there is no channel I enjoy than yours.
Even though I am not involved in the Gaming Industry in the slightest and don't plan to be.
No point to this comment, but people don't say it enough, so thank you for all you do.
A really weird example of a game that's doing action and stealth is Hotline Miami. In a sense, the game is a stealth game as none of the enemies know that you're there until they see or hear you. It also does play a lot like a puzzle game in a way, it's about finding a path that lets you get through a group of enemies without you being blindsided.
If you go through the game using only melee weapons and thrown weapons then it can become very stealth focused. Even if you use guns a lot it becomes a game of baiting enemies and playing off of their limited sight.
At the same time the game encourages running through levels at breakneck speed, never slowing down until the floor you're on is completed. It opposes this idea of making waiting fun by removing waiting altogether. When it takes under a second to respawn and floors often taking under 3 minutes to complete on a successful run you get a game that encourages ramming your face into each challenge every way you can think, the consequences of failure are nonexistent. Dying in the game is extremely commonplace however, with a single hit from any attack killing you but it's balanced by the very fast respawns.
Overall I think it's really interesting how the game manages to meld stealth elements with action elements in way that doesn't feel jarring. It does it so well that you don't even really realize it without putting some thought into it.
I had a lot of fun playing the first and 2nd SOCOM games. With every step you take without the alarm sounding drastically increases your chances for success.
Mark of the Ninja is one of the best stealth games I've ever played and I recommend it to anyone who likes stealth
interesting. i really hate it because i always make a plan so when it doesn't work it feels like it is the game cheating. what makes it work for you?
I personally like dishonored, when something goes wrong it is most of the time because you didn't know enough and didn't look around enough. you didn't know a guard was coming or that his path would lead past the place you store bodies. stuff like that.
Actually I feel like it's the opposite. Unless you're playing mark of the ninja on NG+, there are very clear signs of if a guard will hear what you are doing, if a guard can see you in the darkness, and where light is. Extra Credits even made a video about why Mark of The Ninja never "cheats".
However dishonored definitely cheats in the sense that you mean (though it's still a good game). It is very unclear on what areas are "safe" and which areas are being watched. The inclusion of a Z axis also makes finding information to conduct a plan much more complicated
Playaslaya games (almost never cheat), especially not stealth games. but how it feels always matters most. with motn everything is clear to you so a plan can never fail, so if it does it feels like the game doesn't follow its own rules.
in dishonored things are harder to figure out. it takes time to find out where guards are going trough, and if they find out a guard is missing they will take over that patrol, so areas are rarely clear but there are less guards in any area. it takes time to come up with a plan that you think will work, and there are a lot of things you just have to guess and hope or look really long to figure out.
I think you don't understand what i mean with that it feels like motn cheats. all the information is layed out for me, i know what is going to happen, what everyone can see, so my plan is fool proof. so when it doesn't work the only reason my head comes to is the game cheating. when in dishonored something goes wrong it most of the time has to do with someone or something you didn't know about, and if feels like your fault for not knowing about it.
@vinx.909 I disagree. Mark of the Ninja is as pure as stealth games get. ALL the information is laid out for you. You can see PRECISELY how far dogs smell, how far enemies can see, what areas are being watched etc. There are rings that show how far ANY sound you make will travel, so you can always be sure of your movements. I never felt like my plan would fail. I love Dishonored, but that game feels far more like it's "cheating" than MOTN. I don't know how far that enemy can see, or if I'm visible in this light level for instance. Even if I use dark vision, I can't see that stuff. In MOTN, there are two states of light, bright light or darkness. ALL the guards CLEARLY have cones that show not only the field of vision from their flashlight, but also the distance they can see. If i'm not standing within a light or a flashlight, I KNOW I won't be seen.
That almost describes a horror game. Oh, horror/stealth game, that sounds cool!
I would have liked to have heard your thoughts on the Assassin's Creed series. It's interesting because it can engage the player who likes stealth but you can also go full on action mode if you'd like. I really like the game but I always prefer the stealthy route.
MGS 3 is same thing....
Jack Doe No it isn't.
Source: Played all of them.
-_- yes it is you can run like maniac and you can use stealth only on high dificulties its way harder
Jack Doe It isn't and I'm just going to settle with disagreeing with you.
Um ... dishonored ?
I'm so glad this show is still around!
Gonna be honest favourite stealth game has to be the sly cooper series
Eesh, what about the 4th game?
It was... aright...
Sly Cooper is great. Though the 3rd game added a lot more tools to your belt, there was something satisfying about everything, including the player, dying in one shot on the original.
I love in thief when your hiding in the shadows and the guard is walking closer and closer and your going "god please don't spot me please don't spot me" in your head and holding your breath in real life even though it doesn't impact the game just affects me so much.
At 3:44 a black spot appears on the left of dan, it drove me crazy -.-'
I also like that in MGS2 you actually have quite some ways to defend yourself: You get several weapons and a nice cover systems, and grandes and good mobility and stuff. But the enemies just overpower you, making the punishment of being spotted feel natural rather than enforced (think Assassin's Creed. I would have done NOTHING in stealth if it was possible).
I stealthed my way through the new Tomb Raider for the most part. I feel they got stealth and action combined pretty well in this reboot.
there's two type's of stealth games i'd like to see
type A: you have just escaped a government facility where they bioengeneered you into a human superweapon capable of killing ANYTHING, the downside, you sacrifice your healthbar for every hit, and it doesn't regenerate, sure you CAN murder your way through but every kill will make it easier to kill you, thus giving you a pretty good incentive to not get spotted
type B: apply the dark souls formula to stealth (fail a lot? game gets harder so you fail more) so every time you're spotted the game will make the guards harder and more inquisitive, you used a bush to hid once before? they'll check it out next time you disapear, this'll force the player to get good at sneaking and hiding, or stealthily dispatching guards
i would if i could, but sadly my game making is limited to rpg maker tools
+Yline darksoulsfangirl I think with the right mindset you could do it out of that, basic idea, make your mooks horridly weak, but FAST and hit for a moderately good amount, and make levels LOWER your HP Cap, and then just apply limited healing and while they might not feel the loss of HP immediately, the fact that the slowly are brought down to normal starts to show as they can never heal ALL the way back up to what they started at
+Cloudmonkey or if not the hp, just bring the power down (maybe both), so every enemy is harder to kill the more you kill.
+Yline darksoulsfangirl you want type A? one where killing reduces your hp? simple, find a mod for a stealth game that instead of all those cruddy old guns, gives you the blood dragon killstar.
Uncle Jack Genius, Pure. Unadulterated. GENIUS!! Give this man the internet!!
this explains why i loved tenchu so much when I was younger. Getting into the combat was the failure state but it was good combat XD
now I want to play tenchu
one of the best stealth games I ever played was death to spies.
mgsV's stealth isn't bad. when I pull off a fully stealth run, it feels so rewarding.
So here's a question: plenty of RPGs have rogues as a character class. Can a game be designed so that those playing as warriors get to enjoy the power fantasy of beating the crap out of enemies while those playing as rogues can have a satisfying experience sneaking around and doing roguey things? Does such a game exist?
I'm currently playing through Dragon Age: Inquisition as a rogue, but most of the rogue skills relate to combat. There's no point where playing as a rogue gives you the opportunity to avoid a tough fight by sneaking past the guards, or climb up a ledge and snipe a boss character with a bow then escape without being detected. I'm not really sure if it's possible to square that sort of thing with standard RPG rules because RPGs usually give rewards for killing enemies (ie. loot and experience); all things being equal, it's usually better to storm the castle and kill everyone who stands in your way.
Phlebas I found skyrim is pretty engaging while playing a stealth class. However, you do often have to kill people, but you can evade many and just rob a store without anyone noticing for example. I always snuck up on Gaurds to then steal from them
LoTR Builders
Thanks for the response. I looked into it, and I see that you actually get rewarded with XP for sneaking past enemies. I think that's an excellent idea. Rogues are incentivised to use stealth, just as (I imagine) warriors are incentivised to fight.
An alternate solution would be to only grant XP for completing quests and have it so that the only lootable enemies are the ones you have to kill. That way, you can complete the quest any way you want, either going in guns blazing or sneaking in through an open window and you still get the same reward in the end.
as i understand: you want a game that could be engaging even if you play rogue-like (sneaky) or warrior-like (f*/*ing everyone around). it sounds interesting
Talenten Hanna
Yeah. And I'm now trying to think about how mage classes could feel unique too. If hack 'n slash game mechancis give players the fantasy of playing a warrior and stealth game mechanics let players feel like a rogue, what sort of mechanics would capitalize on a mage's unique skills and could that be incorporated into RPGs with multiple character classes?
Non-combat spells might be the key. Dispel the magical barrier, cast an illusion to walk past guards without drawing attention, charm NPCs into giving up useful plot information, remove curses and so on.
in "trine" you can make some quests using the warrior, the archer (rogue) or the mage.
they try to solve the magic problem by making "the mage" a bit more like supportive character (you will use him a lot to solve the puzzles, creating artifacts to get to some places).
I think games have 2 sub-classes: rogue-like or support and warrior-like or combat. If you just combine these, you will end with an "unique" character but just a mix.
I find the illusion spell concept, unique.
Dispelling a magical barrier as a way to advance its hard since you will have to provide antoher path to solve it for the rogue or the warrior.
Creating some sort of barrier, or freezing automated devices (turrets, lasers) would be nice.
Using teleport to pass without a key.
a mage definitely would fit in a stealth game.
I absolutely LOVED Dishonored, and still love it to this day. Completed it on the hardest with no powers, all ghost, 0 kills (it was my 7th playthrough), but during my first time, I usually used the run and gun technique when I was in a hard situation. Both works, and both are genuinely fun and enjoyable. Oh, and the level design in Dihonored is truly fantastic, offering numerous ways to tackle/get to your objective whether you're using full-blown violenceshooting everybody, stealthy killing, or a completely non-lethal approach. IMO, 10/10 game and level design.
Hey, I liked Tenchu Z
My first Extra Credits video. Ahhhhh....The nostalgia.
Mark of the ninja is the most realistic ninja game ever
Nathan Fisher Except for the bit where hitting guards in the face with bamboo darts makes a sound that alerts their dogs, to which the guards respond by looking for whatever alerted the dog (their own grunt of surprise), instead of... you know, the ninja that just threw a dart in their face. But hey, most stealth games have *far* more immersion-breakers.
+Nathan Fisher Doubtful - real-world ninjas rarely donned the black garb and fancy gear for their hits: more often than not, they just disguised themselves as household servants and waited until they were alone with their target - at which point they moved in for the kill and then made a run for it.
+Frank Castle which means the better hitman games are realistic ninja games
+Nathan Fisher
>hanging people and dragging them up while climbing the same rope
>realistic
a good use of a meme I hate.
+Nathan Fisher It's actually a complete game. STEALTH+ACTION+PUZZLE+TIMING
Honestly some of my favorite stealthy motions in gaming were in action video games: Halo, Warfare games, etc. Essentially I challenge myself by not using the power weapons and took enemies down one by one w/o argoing the rest.
I don't know but I liked the stealth part in Legend of Zelda:Windwaker. Am I the only one?
I think those stealth segments weren't overly engaging, and the AIs were rather dumb, but they were redeemed by the facts that they were simple, short, and not TOO bad.
I really hated those personally. Extremely boring.
One feature I love in puzzle games is the unintended solution. The first time I played Portal I got to TC 14 saw the raised platform, the stairs and the long drop and figured all the other stuff was just there to distract the player into thinking the solution was more complex than it really was.
I didn't realize until I played the commentary that the more complex solution was the intended "correct" solution" and the one I found was really an accident.
When you do that you feel like you are smarter than the game creators!
HEY, tenchu z isnt terrible
You're right. I'm saying that even with stealth just as an earmark, it's still extremely engaging and satisfying. For that reason, among many others, I regard Bethesda and their games as a wonderful phenomenon.
It's just an opinion, and many people had unexpectedly hateful reactions to it. :P
Like, what's with the negative votes? "Hey! a different opinion than ours!, let's censor it!"
Skyrim actually has really good stealth if you play as a sneak based character. At first, it's hard to go unnoticed, but you will eventually reach a point where you can take out a room of undead without being detected. The upgrades for stealth are really useful and easy to obtain, and a mix of emphasis on archery, light armor, sneak, and one handed will ensure a great stealth character.
Um, I didn't say it was the best game ever, I'm not that delusional. All I said was that it has some great stealth when you make the right choices.
*****
Let's just make sure not to rage at anyone...ever, even fanboys.
Its not a good way to get your point across, and most times it only makes people rage back. (Nobody like a rage party. >.
KellySmith555 If only this could be on the non-existent license test to use the internet.
HellFire2034 There was also the issue of shooting a man with an arrow for the crit bonus, waiting for him to stop looking for you, then rinsing and repeating.
KellySmith555 :'> It makes me so happy to see this exchange on TH-cam.
MGSV. When you are "caught" all hell breaks loose and if you aren't busy running, you are endlessly entertained by the pure chaos and the "wait" is filled with plenty of enemy radio calls, conversations, morters, explosions etc...
The best stealh it's on payday 2, If you fail swarms of enemyes will come for you, but before you can make things as quiet as you want
Killzone Mercenary is a good example of a game that lets you play how you want by giving you the ability to choose your own load out and making stealth just as engaging as going in guns blazing.
MGSV, GG.
The farcry series is an engaging example of a stealth-action game series, because they let you choose at any point whether youre going to be quiet or loud and make it pretty rewarding either way
Payday 2 stealth aight
I feel like Sly 1 was the definitive example of this for the entire episode.
There should be no stealth sections in non-stealth games. The non-stealth games are played by gamers that do not like stealth. Stealth is not a part of Paper Mario or Zelda. The stealth is mild, but so are lots of the players.
Wrong, the Zelda games do have stealth sections. The Gerudo Fortress, getting past Zelda's guards... etc.
that is a stupid generalization. just cause you are playing a non stealth game doesnt mean you dont like stealth it just means you're playing something else
loganbuckeye11
No it's not. Us stealth players only play metal gear and splinter cell. I don't know what call of duty means. Is it a cooking sim? Not that I would care, I only play stealth games.
Why do video games have to stay in pre-defined generes? Why label them at all? I find that labels only limit creativity, that when you can truly be free of a label is when you create something new and unique.
Batman Arkham Games.
Stealth and action perfectly balanced.
Wonderful episode. Great information, as usual and spot-on observations about my favorite genre. The Thief series (rest in peace Looking Glass) is still one of the best that ever was. And don't forget that Thief is the grand-pappy of all the first-person steal games. Like the new Splinter Cell? You're welcome.
Yandere Simulator is the best stealth game
cough Assassins Creed cough
barbeque sauce If AC is a brilliant stealth game then why is it that the one that is widely considered one of the best is also the one that makes the game mostly about something that is the polar opposite to stealth? (Talking about Black Flag here)
Stealth games have always been my favorite type, whenever other games have to option, I always choose the sneakiest class available.
Every game dev should watch your videos.
The Swindle really does it good and well.
one way some games make stealth and action mix is by making situations where gunning down your enemies will be harder and more time consuming than going stealth, but if it fails, there is always plan B
and it gets even better when you can hide during plan B and try to pick your enemies off stealthily to make the big fight easier
"A PUZZLE?!"
Brilliant XD
This is exactly why I love infamous. The ONE game I can think of that actually manages to swap between the two genres, depending on the players prefered playstyle, and the good/evil thing depends on weather you're going in action gun pewpew style, and killing innocent people, or stealthing your way to the enemy back, and killing them off one by one. ( I prefer the ladder.)
I've been playing a game called Sword with Sauce, and it has good stealth. You can secretly take out enemies with all manner of weapons, and the traversal is fun. One of the best parts is failure at the stealth. You can run around a corner, grapple to a ledge, and wait until they look somewhere else. (They don't go back to the unnoticed state) Alternatively you can start fighting your way through (Unless you're playing the game mode where being detected isn't allowed.) using your tools to kill off your enemies, and it has fun tools for that. From your typical katana or bow and arrow to Captain America's mighty shield there are fun ways to take down your enemies.
When you mentioned stealth games being about succeeding despite a sense of disempowerment, I immediately thought of the Scarecrow encounters in Batman Arkham Asylum. Depending on your playstyle, stealth is somewhat optional through most of the game, but these sections strip you of all your power and put you in a situation where you have to hide or die. And it works really well, partly because you're engaged by the surreal-ness of the situation itself, and partly because it feels extremely rewarding to defeat Scarecrow in the end, giving you back that feeling of empowerment that comes with being Batman. It helps too that the mechanics aren't hard to figure out (you die in one hit if you're spotted, but his line-of-sight and patrol patterns are very straightforward.)
I remember infiltrating an enemy base commanding small squad in planetside 2 and what a rush it was avoiding enemy soldiers to reach the capture points. It was a real scenario with real players on both sides.
I think this is why multiplayer stealth games are so fun, like Ultimate Assassin on Roblox. There is no set guard path. There's a big problem and a set of tools. You could charge in there and take the guards as fast as you can, or systematically chip away at them. It leaves a nice broad spectrum of things you can do. As a guard or target the experience is radically different, but fun in and of itself. I think that's why that kind of multiplayer stealth game works, and you guys are right as ever.
Wow. This explanation of stealth vs action gameplay and the contradictions involved made me really consider what a gameplay masterpiece the Batman: Arkham series is. That it is able to combine both without feeling jarring.
COD:MW got its stealth section right. It was amazing, I literally loved waiting and replayed the section countless times.
Somehow tey managed to beat splinter cell for me, except pandora tomorrow
*****
Splinter Cell was awesome until conviction, blacklist got the franchise back on track though.
I meant pandora tomorrow (has its moments for me.)
This is a proper conversation people acting like true gentlemen
If only all of TH-cam was like this
Its for the reasons covered in this video that Assassin's Creed I is possibly my favourite game. You spend your time exploring, pickpocketing and protecting innocents and you are rewarded with bits of information about the upcoming assassination like the locations of archers, the location of your target and even things like where a useful piece of scafolding is that will make your escape easier. You can act on the information however you like. Sure there were flaws but the idea was great
The rapid iteration part is great :)
The major theme of the whole game is about craving power. Power for Corvo is manifested in the form of his lethal abilities, his weapons and combat-focused spells. This results in an after-effect of spreading the plague in Dunwall as more people die. Meanwhile, the non-lethal approach minimises the spread of plague (the right choice), however is not as thrilling. While I think some stealth mechanics could be a bit better, the relationship between the lethal and non-lethal playstyles worked great
Extra Credits... you have become my first subscription.
you peoples rock. keep it up.
Make an episode about 1. Dominent strategy 2. Levelling up and skill trees and why it's so popular in so many games
One game that comes to mind with doing the transition between a stealth level during a domination game pretty well is LoZ: Wind Waker. You lose your sword, and suddenly you need to figure out how to sneak by. Multiple solutions exist, and you get thrown in jail if you failed.
The Sly Cooper series is a great franchise of stealth games. They're not that hard and generally you can survive getting spotted and attacked, even beat the bad guys that spotted you, but it still feels quite rewarding and satisfying.