Making your own printer profiles - Is it really worth the effort?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.พ. 2023
- Keith looks at why you might want to make your own profiles along with many reasons you might decide it's not worth the effort and expense for the benefits gained.
Keith discusses more about making profiles in these recent videos:
Making pro level profiles
• Making printer ICC pro...
Making profiles for better art and photo prints
• Colour profiles for be...
Unsure of why profiles matter?
Why use profiles: • Why use printer profil...
Keith's 2003 review of the ColorVision PrintFIX
www.northlight-images.co.uk/r...
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Interesting as always Keith. I have custom profiles for all my papers, but the paper manufacturer creates them for me. That is one job that I'm happy to outsource!
Thanks - I'm often unsure of just what people expect when I'm asked about buying profiling kit.
Hi Keith, thank you for this video - this was what I needed to hear 🙂I've been tempted for a while to go off on a tangent, investing time and money into creating my own paper profiles. Not because paper manufacturer-provided profiles are not doing it for me, but because I like to know the technical ins and outs of the end to end workflow. Even if in the end I'd probably go "interesting to know, but I'll get someone else to do this". Your recent videos have helped me to gain a better understand the more technical side of creating custom paper profiles, whilst giving me the realisation to "keep it real" and focus on what goes on out in the field, during post-production and when printing using the paper manufacturer's profiles. Thank you!
Glad it's helped!
I have found learning about ICC profiles and similar topics from your videos enormously helpful in understanding the results I am or am not getting. In some cases, I realized, I was choosing papers based on the quality of the manufacturer’s ICC profile as much as based on the actual paper.
Thanks - glad they've been helpful.
Many thanks, always nicely explained.
Thanks
Excellent video thank you. I use a Canon Pro 100s and went down the road of trying profiling some papers during lockdown using Spyderprint. It was a very good learning process and entertained me greatly, filling up my spare time. It produced no useful profiles. in my opinion the important thing is to use manufacturers ink;
manufacturers paper for least effort; good paper with recommended profiles (I use Permajet and Paperspectrum) and concentrate on your photography
Thanks - a lot comes down to just how much you want to fiddle around with this stuff ;-)
Excellent advice as always Keith. I've produced a few custom profiles for my ET2650 using the i1 Studio but I wouldn't recommend somebody who's only printer is a very basic entry level one spending what amounts to more on profiling gear than the printer cost.
The only reason I happen to own the i1 studio in the first place is because I use it on my Canon Pro 100S. That said, if a paper provider supplies generic " canned " ICC profiles I'll always use them rather than make my own. Frankly I doubt my relatively modest i1 studio could produce much better custom profiles anyway. It's likely the likes of Fotospeed and Permajet use a vastly more expensive profiler than my i1 studio to make their profiles 😊
I only produce custom profiles for papers for which the provider doesn't, i.e. for when using Epson papers on my Canon or discontinued Ilford papers ( of which I purchased a lot in bulk ). The fact that I have the i1 studio already means however that I can still use it to create good profiles for my much cheaper ET2650. I'd say I'm getting about as good as this printer can possibly get by doing this. Do printer profiles make a difference on printers like these entry level Epson Ecotanks? Absolutely they do! When I first used my ET2650 I printed on some HP Advanced Glossy which I had. Needless to say I had to use Epson's generic Premium Glossy setting in the driver ( the ET2650 only has that, Matt and plain paper to choose from!). The results were terrible, very dark prints with a green tint on them. Once I created a custom ICC profile the results were night and day. Not perfect by any means ( I've found my Canon Pro 100 and my little Epson don't like HP paper for some reason lol ) but vastly better. I now use Ilford Smooth Pearl on my Epson with a custom profile and the results look fantastic. The Epson premium gloss media setting with my custom profile combined produce excellent results.
So what would be my advise to somebody considering buying the newer ET2850 who wants the best prints it can produce without having the budget/desire to also purchase a profiling device like the i1 studio?
Simple...stick to buying only Epson's own gloss/semi gloss/lustre papers ( and set the paper type to premium glossy in the driver ). Failing that try alternative quality papers that are similar ( no not that cheap nasty Kodak paper you can buy from Asda or the no name rubbish from Poundland) and cross your fingers. To be fair, my ET2650 does a good job using it's driver on most good quality gloss/semi gloss and lustre papers, whatever the brand ( except HP ) so give it a whirl.
I've not tried any Matt papers with the ET2650 on account it's an all dye based printer, I expect the ET2850 however might fair better given it now has pigment black 😋
Thanks for all those notes!
The duff photo paper problem is all about coatings - I keep a pack of 'cheapo' paper specifically to show this effect, and how no amount of tweaking settings/profiling will ever produce an acceptable print.
Thank you for this video
thanks!
Thank you Keith, I have a Canon G850 which has been printing very light prints but now that I have changed the Driver from a Secure AirPrint to just plain old AirPrint I actually get Prints that near enough match the screen. 😅😅
Yes, the airprint causes all sorts of issues (see my G550 review for more)
Just a fantastic video!
Printer: ET 8550
Camera: canon D700
Profiler: Xmas present (last) CCcolour Studio
My experience: with the Epson profiles management: these prints gave me very good results especially with skin tones.
My own profiles: fantastic (better) than Epson profiles, but disappointing with skin tones ( jaundice look ) , after 5x attempts
Sorry I hit the wrong button!
But it has taught me a lot! I really enjoy attempting these profiles and tinkering with the compute.
Epson Lustre and Marrutt Satin/ Oyster papers comparisons
Thanks
The cc studio can have issues sometimes with OBA content in some papers. I'll likely revisit it once they include paper profiling in the new software.
I was considering getting a munki to produce some icc,as I have many printers and many papers but after this video I will just carry on getting papers profiled by suppliers..less hassle😉 thanks Keith
Ah, you can possibly spot that I don't sell equipment/software then ;-)
Yes😆
Well I haven't asked but I too have been thinking ..........but another good reality check. I can stay with papers that comes with a profile and I should be able to get a very good print not withstanding I need a good image as a starting point. So more time to take pictures with the camera. I have to keep reminding myself that there might be a difference if I compare any two prints but stand back two feet from the prints and is the difference enough to use up my camera time? Keep your reminders coming so I can have more time making images. Thanks
Thanks - will do ;-)
Mr. Cooper this is the most relevant video within your oeuvre in which to address my question. I put the cart in front of the horse several years ago and bought several bundles of Canon papers. These papers were intended for use with the Canon Pixma Pro 9000. Now I own the Pro 200 and wondered was there a way to use these papers with this newer printer? Thanking you in advance, a horrible procrastinator.
They should work - the inks are not that different, and many papers may have changed name, but not base specifications very much.
@@KeithCooper Mr. Cooper, thank you so very much for your rapid reply. I find your content so thorough and helpful. Persons like yourself that have so much hard-earned expertise that you willingly disseminate for free, amaze me. Thanks again.
Hello Keith one more thanks fort the video, I have got a question with a friend we are using a new Epson SC P7500 printer and we have one problem (the monitors are profiled and we use manufacturer's profiles for our papers (Hahnemuhle and Tecco) and we have got a problem , the shadows are too dark if comparing with with the image on the screen....
Thanks for your answer.
Daniel
The number one answer is always that you have your monitors set too bright [there are others, but this is alway top of the list]. They can be calibrated/profiled, but still set too bright...
One I've addressed several times over the years ;-)
www.northlight-images.co.uk/why-prints-look-wrong/
Hello Keith
As allways very interesting video. In the past I made a lot of custom profiles with the Printfix device. It was a nightmare getting correct measurements of the color patches and with that lost cost solution precision was never as good as professional profiles made with expensive high end gear.
Nevertheless with a lot of time I got some very pleasing profiles and I was very satisfied with the results in an artistic way, not a scientific way. What was very interesting was the possibility to fine tweak profiles with one and the same measured patch values file.
My question : is it possible to rework and fine tune (in an artistic way) existing paper manufacture profiles to the own taste ?
Thanks. The original PrintFix was not as bad as some claimed, but hardly a precision device ;-)
The ability to adjust/edit profiles has vanished from modern solutions - I last came across it in my review of i1Match in 2006
www.northlight-images.co.uk/printer-icc-profile-editing-in-eye-one-match/
There is always the question as to 'why' ;-) This stuff can get very complex and involved quite quickly.
There is a collection of open source tools/resources at
www.color.org/opensource.xalter
Here's another [site gone - archive.org link]
web.archive.org/web/20171214033336/www.behrmann.name/index.php?option=com_weblinks&catid=69&Itemid=95
I don't know of any easy to use solutions - there are quite a few [paid] colour management packages out there too
www.chromix.com/colorthink/
This one is beloved of some magazine reviewers since it can make lots of pretty looking graphs/charts and gives the impression of underlaying expertise and competence ;-)
Hi Keith, I have a colour Munki which I use to profile all my printing papers (A3) on my Epson 2880, are you saying it is not the best way to achieve a better reproduce more colour accuracy?
No. I'm saying that the effort is not always so worthwhile for many people these days
However...
You have a pretty old printer which does not have the profiles often available for newer ones, it also takes for more effort for the software to make good profiles, also printers of that age varied a lot more in characteristics [unit to unit]. All that, means that your printer will likely show the benefits of custom profiles far more than a current model.
Something not so obvious in many photography cases, is that we can make (e.g.) two dramatically different prints from the same shot.
One of my portfolio shots - high fashion, historic location, available light, indoors - works really well in very soft low contrast and light rendition, but I can make it much darker, moodier, almost Goth, too. The raw image has perfect exposure anda neutral rendition is in between. All good, big differences and different impact.
Indeed, but for me that would come from different processing and paper choices, nothing to do with profiles?
@@KeithCooper - nothing to do with profiles. Sharp, Keith. But in response to the theme of printing in general. Such variants make printing more interesting, can improve portfolio, potentially sell prints of shots that would not sell in another rendition - and in all this there is a justification for both calibration and profiles. When a photographer wants to sell a print - say numbered 1/15 to 15/15 - do they then print all these 15 or would you do that on demand (and hence consistency would be extremely important).
Ah - I was only referring to uses of profiles in this instance, with respect to this particular video.
The question of editions is an interesting one, since printers wear out, papers get reformulated and software changes.
Ideally you would print them all in one run.
Printing on demand is certainly an option, and one might suggest that since no two prints are ever going to be put next to each other under controlled lighting, so who's to know...
Then again I've always had a degree of suspicion toward the whole concept of numbered editions for digital prints ;-)
For me, testing paper, a profile is very useful. Otherwise it's hard to spot what's a profiling issue and what's the paper. This is really true for shadow areas etc. I'll use one sheet to do a basic Argyll CMS profile, then the other for a test image. That gives me something I can compare. Without the profile there are too many variables that I don't have the eye to see through. I'm printing using Linux on an ET-8550. The i1 Studio isn't too expensive if you need something to profile your screen too. But even on Linux now, manufacturers standard profiles possibly work, I haven't tested. For me the real benefit is I can print an image on several papers without needing to re-edit, the profile takes care of the differences.
Ah, using the words linux and argyllcms in the same answer sets you well apart from who I was likely addressing this particular video towards ;-)
Glad it was of interest!
@@KeithCooper Here's another viewer with linux and argyllcms. :-) With the Epson XP-960 I did make custom profiles, but as I'm using a P900 now, I'm quite happy with the profiles supplied by Epson or e.g. Hahnemühle. If I would use Hahnemühle paper with the Turboprint driver on linux, I might bother creating profiles again. But for now it's easier to just fire up a windows VM and print with Epson Print Layout and all the available profiles from there.
Yes, as a long ago UNIX sysadmin I've no problem whatsoever with Linux and Argyll, it's just for most people the Win/Mac route is a more direct road ;-)
Time to fire up the SGI O2 sitting in my spare room ;-)
😀
Hi Kieth, what about Qimage software as an alternative which is reasonable in price and has a vast array of profiles for different printers and paper types plus more other options. Any thoughts ?
Though I will be asking you for your own profiles sometime soon, regarding the epson ET8550👍 once i set up.
Generic profiles may work sometimes, but they are not the same as a generated ICC profile for a particular paper.
Qimage is a popular printing option and has many fans.
Last time I looked [albeit a while ago], it had a somewhat eclectic user interface design ;-) As a long time Mac user, it's never been of much appeal here (any Mac version always seemed a bit of an afterthought in comparison to the PC one).
hello. just started learning sublimation printing. i have an ET-4800. Hiipo sublimation inks and A-Sub sublimation transfer paper. ive searched a lot and found an ICC for another printer and the colours are way off. id like to make my own ICC while hoping that would be possible. do you have any suggestions based on my situation perhaps. i would take it only as friendly aevice an not badger you any further. enjoyed this video a lot thanks so much
Sorry, my experience of dye-sub printing is minimal.
I'm curious as to just how much difference you may or may not have found between between canned ICC profiles for Epson, Canson papers and your custom profiles for a higher end printer as the epson p900 or canon pro1000?
Relatively little of note. Sometimes my ~3k patch targets give smoother gradients, sometimes not. I don't actually test manufacturers profiles in any great detail though. Very strong/synthetic colours may behave difficulty with any profile, but they are not common in my prints.
I build my profiles so that rendering intents [RC vs. P] make a slight difference for example - with some images it makes more of a difference than others.
Where my profiles have made more of a difference was with mid level printers.
@@KeithCooper Thanks for taking time out to explain... Appreciate it..Perhaps when I'm in a position to splurge one day I'll have to have a custom profile made just to find out for myself... again thanks.
Hi Keith,
Another interesting video, many thanks. In this one you mentioned that you can 'tweak' profiles.
Can you explain this further please?
Another thing I would like to see is a comparison between prints (same image/ printer/paper/ink) but made using profiles made with different devices eg your super duper dcevice featured recently and say the Colorchecker Studio.
Would there be any/many differences of note?
Cheers nb
Some profiling packages allow you to define certain parameters for profile building. these can make a difference in the results but they are usually quite subtle with i1Profiler [the documentation for this is very poor though] The old i1Match software had some basic editing [NB this is covered in some of my older written articles/reviews]
Software like ArgyllCMS and the Spyderprint software have far more potential adjustments.
Then there are profile editing and analysis tools - Colorthink comes to mind [too expensive for me to just buy a copy though]
Quite some time ago, someone said to me that if you feels you need to edit a profile, take it as a strong hint that you should re-build. Note I'm only talking RGB icc profiles for photo printers here - not commercial print or setting up RIPs
As to comparisons, I may do something when ccProfler adds print profiling to the mix
It will only be a video overview of the main written article though. YT is simply not the place for showing large sample images or anything of much detail and complexity, with notes, references and links
@@KeithCooper Thanks Keith.
I will search through your older reviews to read up on regarding 'tweaking' prifiles, just out of curiousity.
I agree with your thoughts on the limitations of TH-cam being able to show useful detail although it is great for a general overview.
I need to check some of the links in those old articles, but here is a look at editing in i1Match from 2006
www.northlight-images.co.uk/printer-icc-profile-editing-in-eye-one-match/
@@KeithCooper Thanks Keith.
Interesting article. Two comments.
It wasn't long enough as I still have time to clean up the dust in my office and as you suspected, some of the links are no longer working.
The first one yes, the others no.
Thanks - the broken links are from when the site was re-written in 2015. Looks like I've found a clump of old pages where this was only partially migrated.
It will take a few weeks to fix [it is a big site!]
If there is anything specific you are looking for use the search box at the top of the page - this indexes all pages
One I've just updated is:
www.northlight-images.co.uk/x-rite-i1-profiler-product-overview-and-reviews/
Yes we can. Good video, Keith. I print Epson and Hahnemuehle at A4 and larger, Ilford at 5"*7" (13*18cm).
The paper manufacturer profiles are good, and the instructions too, but the hassle is to keep track of what Epson branded paper I need to select in the printer driver for each of the Hahnemuehle papers, or Ilford.
In that sense, Lightroom adds zero value.
Do you have different experiences?
Thanks - I use the names of my custom profiles to include the media setting I used for profiling.
I'd hope that 3rd party paper makers would do this, but if they don't you can change the name of the profile [don't forget the internal name as well - I use the Mac ColorSync utility]
Custom media settings are a good option if the printer supports it. One of the reasons for using them is to 'reduce the need for operators to understand what they are doing' [direct quote from a printer maker ;-) ]
@@KeithCooper - that's funny. I would think that people who can navigate the ICC profile paired with operating system and application forest, and were able to create a profile in the first place, can teach a lesson or so on the subject - as you do.
Yes, there are a lot of areas in this stuff, which could be much clearer ;-)
I have the Epson EcoTank ET-16600, is an A3 printer with scanner, all 4 colors are pigment ink (archival and waterproof) I wonder if custom profiles will allow me to make my own prints at home. Regards :)
They will usually produce better results. A four colour printer definitely benefits from profiling. My suggestion would be to find a paper supplier and see what profiles they have? That particular printer may not be well supported so you may need a supplier which will make custom profiles for you if you buy a pack of paper.
I own a similar MFU, and we are printing a lot of photos and graphics for expositions, and etc. . Our clients are not of course snobs, but we look for quality and are very responsible for the final result. And I can say that this "only" 4 pigment ink based model can print very good images that satisfy at least 90+% of clients. Just make sure to pick the right media, and twick quality by your needs, by proofing it or making a profile. I was really amazed how this office printer can print absolutely very fine quality images, color or mono, if you really study how to properly configure it. Epson CMYK pigment inks are very good, and the formula ensures quite good contrast, shading, vividness, though it's not suitable for printing small size photos, because of limitation of 4 color ink and quite big ink droplets.
My experience with the Pro-1000 is that some profiles by manufacturers simply don’t work. The calumet brillant papers and those from fotospeed for example. Even for some hahnemühle papers with their profile I get result that have a slight but noticeable magenta cast (not relative to screen but relative to prints on other papers).
Also the prints are all quite dark.
I now purchased a rather low budget Color calometry profiling system and while it’s quite some work and not foolproof I prefer the results in terms of fidelity.
Yes, some profiles are still of variable quality.
Many were made when the PRO-1000 first came out, so it's to be hoped they are better these days