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What are printer profiles? What use are they? Using icc paper profiles and soft proofing
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มี.ค. 2023
- What do icc printer profiles actually do and what are they? Why do you need them for the best quality photo printing?
For much more detail see my 'Colour Management' playlist
Why you probably shouldn't use CMYK at all
• Say no to CMYK. Why yo...
I've more about making profiles in these recent videos:
Making pro level profiles: • Making printer ICC pro...
Making profiles for better art and photo prints: • Colour profiles for be...
Colour spaces: • Does it matter? Colour...
Still unsure of why profiles matter?
Why use profiles: • Why use printer profil...
Info from PermaJet about installing profiles
www.permajet.c...
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Just in the process of buying the Epson ET-8550. Thanks so much for this and all of your videos explaining color profiles, gamuts, soft proofing etc. Your channel is terrific!
thanks - Happy to help!
Thanks for taking the time to make this tutorial. I think Im slowly getting my head around the subject now.
Well, thanks for asking in the first place ;-)
It's why I'm happy with questions from viewers!
For me, printer profiles help give me consistent results. Two very different paper types will still look quite different in rendition irrespective of the fact they might be the same image using the same printer and ink combination. In fact that's the whole point of having different paper types, they are supposed to give different results 😀 The profiles just ensure good colour accuracy and because the profiles are linked to the media type, at the very least you are giving the printer the information it needs regards how much ink to lay on the paper 😊
Yes - I still get people thinking that colour management is about making all prints look the same...
Hello Keith
thank you so much for your great educational content
For me the most difficult task in color management was to find the correct screen target parameters (Eizo calls it so) for printing.
The screen target contains the parameters set with brightness, color temp, contrast that matches the print and with whom calibration is made. The Eizo "Color Navigator" software stores my different targets for printing, big screen display, smartphone display; each target is calibrated and the screen display can be matched to a target with just a mouse clic.
Once my Eizo CG screen had the correctly guessed target parameters for printing, soft proofing went so easy and reliable for me.
Yes - custom settings can help - I use them for screens in the videos, but don't bother fro normal editing.
Thanks again for helping those of us with less than your extraordinary level of experience find our way along the perilous path of advanced printing techniques. Your shared expertise is very appreciated (though I know there's no substitute for actual first-hand experience)!
In what cases do you feel it's necessary to crate your own profiles? I just came in from shooting a bunch (60+) images of an iridescent film on a pond (I hope it's organic!) and I'm confident of the potential for some stellar prints, provided I can make that happen. I've yet to even download the images, much less process them, but I'm wondering about the best way to replicate what I saw on paper. My first inclination is to go metallic (I have Epson Metallic Luster plus some samples from other sources), as many of these have a quasi-metallic look. The thin surface ice melted with the sun going in and out, so I got a lot of different looks, especially depending on camera position and C-PL use. There are similarities to these and many I've gotten with textured back-lighted ice, where prismatic effects can produce some really nice (albeit subtle) hue variations. I want to be able to share my experience via print (although I'll probably put a couple online) but I wonder if the OEM profiles will suffice or if I should consider alternate approaches.
Glad it was of interest.
So called 'metallic' papers vary a lot in their look _and_ how they look with different printer/ink-sets.
I've tested quite a few [see my written stuff] - currently the best 'metallic look' combination [IMHO] came with with Permajet titanium gloss 300 and the PRO-200 [dye inks]
@@KeithCooper Thanks--I should've mentioned that I have an Epson P900 (pigment ink, as you well know). I've used that printer/paper combo with success on superficially similar images but I'm always looking to "perfect" (a term that of course doesn't apply to art but you know what I mean) my output, as subtleties matter. That's why I appreciate the great attention to detail you exude. I have several samples of metallics (Hanne, Canson, Moab--I'm US-based) so I guess I should give those a try and keep Permajet in mind (although shipping may be an issue). Of course, I may end up favoring a different paper. I have (very) many images featuring water in various (often frozen) forms and it's a challenge getting just the right look.
Great video.
Thanks for the info !!
Glad it was helpful!
I know I've covered aspects before but wanted to keep it at a non-technical level
Very informative Thanks.
Thanks
I've been using your colour test image on my papers... might be my printer, but all papers produce better oranges after profiling (instead of the manufacturer ones).
Yes, sometimes printers do have a variance which shows this up.
Modern printers are much better in this respect, but custom profiles can often help.
Thanks for the video, Keith. You mentioned that you have your monitor temps set to the lighting in the room. Do you have a video that goes into more detail about that?
yes, see
th-cam.com/video/MqTzXTre-K4/w-d-xo.html
Hardware calibrated monitors tend to handle this better...
With photography, I like to work backwards. That is, I start with the photo paper (e.g., Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl), match it with the printer (e.g., Canon Pro 1000), and then download the correct printer profile from Hahnemuhle.
That's not really 'backwards' unless you mean you choose the printer based on the paper...?
@KeithCooper What I'm saying is that the end result is what matters, not the equipment per se. The end result determines what goes before. For example, if a printer doesn't work well with the paper I want to use, then it would be a mistake to buy that printer.
OK, although perhaps with the huge range of papers I've got from testing, I'm just not that attached to any particular paper [or brand]
Helpful info. What hardware do you need to create your own profiles?
Thanks - it's an i1iSis XL for mine
Here's a video
th-cam.com/video/Lk-AeBea7v8/w-d-xo.html
A cheaper solution
th-cam.com/video/qv59fVYTp4I/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/srKWNnYlReA/w-d-xo.html
@@KeithCooper thanks
Great video Keith, thanks for that.
I have a question that I hope you may be able to answer or point me in the right direction.
I have installed ICC profiles for the papers I use, but the displayed profile name is sometimes a bit long-winded or cryptic (e.g. APJ_OEMPro1000_AlphaNaturalRag_HWFAP.icc) Is there a way to rename this to a more friendly version? I'm using Windows 11 btw.
I've tried renaming the file before installing it, but it still appears as the original name so I guess it must be hard-coded into the ICC profile.
Yes the names are internal ;-) I can edit them using the Mac ColorSync Utility, but I've no idea what to use on a PC
Actually the cryptic names are usually meant well
Just from the name I know it's a rag paper for a pro-1000 and should be printed using hwfap media setting.
I give my profiles similar style names to help me remember what I'm using - it's usually done for very good reasons...
@@KeithCooper thank you! I shall keep looking.
thanks for the explanation. I now need to calibrate my monitor and my printer&paper profile. Is that done with one device and any suggestion? My macbook pro screen is set to "Apple XDR Display" preset. I shall set it to "photography" to slightly match what is printed I guess.
A calibrator os needed for screens - nothing to do with paper profiles, they take a lot more work, equipment and expense ;-)
Few people make their own paper profiles.
I do need to revisit laptop calibration, since I just replaced my 2010 MBP with a 2024 one...
@@KeithCooper not one device does both monitor calibration and printer profile, the xrite?
Yes - The i1Studio aka ccStudio or Colormunki as was
Making your own icc printer profiles is rarely worth it for the majority of people... but if you do it's that or buying an i1Profiler kit [i1Publish]
www.northlight-images.co.uk/x-rite-i1studio-launched/
and www.northlight-images.co.uk/i1studio-update-1-1/
www.northlight-images.co.uk/i1studio-update-1-5/
@@KeithCooper great.. may consider buying one.. but first lets try ready icc profiles or maybe start with the generic ones from the printer.
Hello and thanks for sharing your knowledge ! But isn't is more simple, when you finished your image editing, to convert (real conversion, not proofing) the image you want to print to the printer/paper icc profile and do the adjustments on this image converted to the printer/paper icc profile ? I would imagine that in that case all the adjustment one will do to match as much as possible the wide gammut display image you to want to print to what the printer/paper can achieve without taking the risk to generate out of gammut colors ?
Absolutely not :-)
...printer profile colour spaces are not for editing images in - colours likely won't display consistently.
Soft proofing can help address gamut issues, but with care, since you need to know what's going on.
Out of gamut colours are generally nowhere near the problem they are sometimes perceived - choice of the right rendering intent for example can make a big difference.
@@KeithCooper Thanks. I encounterd some cases where I was unable to get vivid saturated reds on the P900, only got darher and more dull reds. When I was speaking about converting the image to the paper/printer profile it was not for the proper editing of the image but only for the printed version of the file. If I use the original prophoto or adobe version of the file there are vivid reds or oranges I didn't manage to handle the image to get a similar result. I know that there will always be a difference between a screen versio and a printer version, but in some case like in my exemple if I don't have this red color the image sooses a lot of its interest. If, after having finished the editing of my image I cnvertied to the printer profile,,I noticed the I didn't have any gammut warning at all anymore and I got gammut warning with the original prophoto file under soft proofing.
Yes, there are a few specific times where this approach might be warranted [I'm thinking more in commercial print], but in general, due to the knowledge and experience needed I'd never directly suggest it.
My own approach would be to create a different printer profile and pay attention to the mapping for different rendering intents. Once again an approach I'd not normally suggest - the kit and software is not inexpensive@@jimofmarseille
@@KeithCooper thanks. I will continue to dig and search. I'll chack how to maybe replace some colors (without distroying the image) and I tried to pick up one of those red alone and anaged to print it as a single color (in a filled square) but didn't find to remap it on my picture (I tried color replacement in photoshop or playing with hue/saturation on an adjustement layer with to success). It only happens a few images, usually I don't have those issues on my images, it seems to happen on low light images and dark saturated reds and oranges.
Thanks again to take time to answer my questions
Do the monitor calibration devices also set the monitor brightness? It seems to me that this would be very important.
No - this is usually set in the calibration software. The software may be able to adjust the levels or you may need to adjust the monitor.
It's normally set to a known value fro 80-120 cd/m2 - see any of my profiling equipment reviews for details
Hello Keith :)
Thank you for that video.
- Is there a specific value in the icc-profile for thickness of the used paper?
- if yes, is there a possibility to overwrite this value with a specific software due to the fact that the head of the P900 leave traces on the paper like scratches
Regards HaJo
No - that's in the media setting
Look at making a custom media based on an existing media setting,
See in the main[written] review
www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-sc-p900-printer-review/
@@KeithCooper Thank you for the link. I'll try this :)
Are icc profiles ok to use on their own or should I still send a printer colour chart back to the paper manufacturer for another profile.
The profiles are just data files. You install them on the computer you wish to print from.
Each profile is specific to a printer/paper - if a paper supplier offers custom profiling then that is the time to print a target and send it to them if you want a custom profile. Custom profiles are the same thing as generic printer/paper profiles. They do depend on the user correctly printing the target though... ;-)
Any advice on what first time budget printer to get....
Nope - the problem is that term 'budget' it will mean something different to every person asking ;-)
Add to that people's differing acceptance of what's an OK print, and that I don't keep track of prices...
Also I only test a few more basic printers, there are many models at the lower end I've never even heard of
Have a look at my printer reviews and get a taste for what you get... ?
www.northlight-images.co.uk/category/articles-and-reviews/printer-reviews/
Hi Keith, I have a question for you, not about ICC profiles sorry, but may be for a future video. I have a P900 with warnings on 5 cartridges and the 5 others are very low too, and I am wondering if I can continue to print safely or if I should change all cartridges with warnings now. I fear to waste lot of expensive paper if I run out of ink, one after the others in the middle of prints. Or may the printer is smart enough and know in advance if it can complete the print? Do you have any advice for situation where many cartridges are about to be empty? I read on forum that we can change cart during a print, and continue, is it true? Thanks a lot!
My own thought is to wait until the printer insists, unless I'm making a really big print.
Although some printers say you can hot swap, I've never seen one where there wasn't some form of mark on a print [slight change of gloss] even with printers with secondary ink tanks like the bigger Canon ones.
I usually cover aspect of this in my detailed [written] printer reviews, not the videos, which are more often intended mainly as supplements to the 'real' reviews ;-) ;-)
@@KeithCooper Thanks a lot, I will read again the reviews as I do not remember that part. So may be I should order to photo lab if I need a panoramic print, until all my carts are replaced.
You can temporarily replace low carts with full ones for a big print. I've done swaps on larger Epson printers for just this reason. I've not tested it on the P900 though.
Hello Keith. Sigh - I'll vent off for a second - sadly - about what really makes me angry and frustrated. I have a tremor, which is annoying enough, but I did find that I could work with minimum frustration with Photoshop 6. I learnt all the ins and outs of the program, working with layers, etc, in the end, producing some really acceptable artwork. Not the same as working traditionally, but you take what you can get. My last laptop which was running on Windows XP died. Thank goodness I had a premonition and took time, during a house move, to shift all the important stuff onto discs and memory sticks. So now I have this new laptop running on Windows 11. Except, my Photoshop 6 will not run on this laptop. I cannot find anything that is compatible. I feel chronic exhaustion coming on again, where before I was starting - through achieving something, a little like the old days. It's like Microsoft has taken all my tools away, all the techniques that I have learnt, all the brushes and said "Wow, Gee! I'm soooo sorry - in that insincere American accent that so many have learnt to hate and distrust! - Here, this is really something better that we KNOW will work for you" - and it's a house brick. What I want is a program that I have been enabled to trust will get results. Some faceless loon has taken it away from me. I'm tired of having to process the entanglements of different programs that have so many obfuscations when you want something straightforward. Every time I try to find something I can work with, and click on a tutorial, it's done at high speed, with a poor resolution so you cannot read what the person is clicking onto, or there is a thump, thump, of some muzac when you're trying to concentrate on what's being said and in that bloody sucking treacle American accent Sadly and disheartenedly, I may just give up altogether.
Sorry to hear that -
I still have Photoshop CS6 running on the MacBook Pro you see in the videos - my old Mac stuff does keep working.
Some people have looked to Affinity Photo, but it's different enough that some don't find it an easy move
@@KeithCooper I find both Adobe and Microsoft have turned to be most parasitical organisations. They've found a money train and have proved far too eager to ride upon it. Like some familiar political organisations. Once they've found a honeyed silver spoon, they just want and can't resist licking it.
What a BS! I'm watching video to learn that I don't need to know anything. Thank you! What is the point of producing this kind of "tutorial"?
Because not everyone has the same background knowledge, understanding of the subject or desire to go into great technical detail
So, as they say YMMV ;-)
Thanks Keith. Does the device (Mac/PC) figure in the icc profile... it used to be that the screen dpi were different between Mac/PC... does that make any difference... just wondering.
No, the same printer/paper profile works for either. The profile is about translating from one space to the printer output space. Display resolution has no part in this