I love how b4nny tried his hardest to describe overwatch's gameplay euphemistically but gave up in the middle of the sentence and just called it cringe. lmao.
@@SwedishBroManDude As somone with over 2k h in tf2 i certainly say that Overwatch 2 is currently allot more fun than tf2. Been loving playing Doomfist and wish other games would have also such movement.
The lack of individual impact, makes the players more toxic to eachother because of mains and also the coordination, but in TF2 you could be any class and still wipe out a team If skilled enough, these situations can save matches.
I mean that's the same shit in overwatch, you can wipe a whole team easily if you're good enough, but obviously that isn't happening with a competent matchmaking system putting you with the same skill players. Tf2 just has more pugs going for you to shit on bad players.
@@lukasg4807i agree with the pug part but there’s still plenty of times in high div matches where a player just pops off for a moment and wipes their team btw oh yeah yeah
@@george-t7y5r yeah. But its not like he is that wrong either Overwatch is an Hero shooter TF 2 has classes, some people just think those 2 are the same, they are not.
Imo, the biggest thing TF2 has over Overwatch is freedom You may argue balancing, characters, etc But part of what led to OW2's downfall is exactly what's kept TF2 alive for so many years, player freedom In Tf2, the playerbase and community are given the leeway to basically whatever they want, spending hours on games, community servers, workshops, and letting players just dick around Overwatch had the seeds for that, but OW2 ultimately removing content and funneling players into the mindset of having to win in order to do anything. Not to mention that OW2 ended up removing incentive to even focus on winning by removing the progression system, and locking a majority of any new content behind egregious prices
TF2 is chill, no ranked, no chasing fir numbers. A good player don't need number to show how good he is. He will just destroy you then conga with the bois
Im sorry but this just isnt true. I have over 600 hours in OW and about a third of that is in custom games. I dont really know where you got this idea of a lack of player freedom but the custom games tools in OW are pretty robust and players can make pretty cool things. They also have a whole arcade section dedicated to fun game modes.
@@Xeleon Lack of player freedom is far reaching concept. This is a legit question that I honestly don't know the answer to... I fully enjoyed TF2 and only traded cheap cosmetics for years. I've actually gotten 2 free cosmetics from random drops. Now I have a few higher priced items. But I can also trade them back for a fair market value at any time. Can you do that in OW? in P2P trades? in 3rd party marketplaces?
Really don't get how this is profound or coherent, 'arcadey MP shooters are centered more around each player's isolated efforts' is true but this is just ???
I found OW the most fun when it first released back in 2016 because it had little to no consideration for the comp side lol. Used to have games where there would be 6 torbs on a single team vs 6 pre nerf roadhogs. both the devs and the comp scene have absolutely killed the game, which is sad to see.
I literally quit the game when Roadhog was nerfed, there was nothing else fun to do in that game. Terrible game design on a fundamental level when nerfing damage numbers completely alters the fun.
I think what sucks about overwatch is how it revolves around abilities and not game mechanics, in tf2 you need to learn rocket jumping for example, and the overwatch equivalent would be a mobility ability that you just activate when the cooldown is done.
Tf2’s abilities are much harder to learn initially but give an incredible amount of control to the player once you’re competent. Overwatch requires basically no learning curve. But this comes at the cost of being limited to what the designers intended. There’s only 4 characters that looked fun to me in overwatch: Zenyatta, Lucio (movement), Wrecking ball hamster (movement), and Doomfist (movement). You see this difference between control and design in other places as well. Many abilities and especially ultimated in overwatch take away your control (stun, black holes, sleep, etc). While TF2 has at best some minor slowing mechanics on some weapons (the natasha and supposedly the sandman). From what I hear this has been reduced in OW2. But i’m not diving into that monetised hellhole anytime soon.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 it has slight knockback but all damage you take in that game basically airstalls you. the weird thing is there seems to be momentum for a slight moment when you first use Pharrahs compression blast, but then it just stalls you and you can't go any further.
@@daanstrik4293 I agree with you a lot with Lucio. He was my main for the (relatively short) time I had playing Overwatch. His wall ride mechanic seems relatively simple on paper, but the fact that he can gain really good amounts of speed if you keep latching and unlatching on walls opened up a lot of ways of how I thought about the maps. The feeling of pulling off a Lucio rollout for the first time in Illios and reaching the point first than the enemy Lucio, booping him off the map because of it, was one of the most adrenaline inducing moments I had playing the game. You are on point when you mention that it's the sense of control that empowers the player. It makes it feel like your actions and consequences are based on your own ability to use the hero instead of it being a hard limit designed by the devs.
Something else to say about Overwatch is how hard it is to make out information on the screen, with the graphics being designed with high saturation and brightness. Maybe that is just me though, I just find that TF2's less flashy art style to be more coherent and visually appealing.
@@long_chin_man Ya I think it's always been in the game. Back before people dropped ammo boxes they dropped their weapons and you could shoot those towards you as well.
I think another TH-camr named Shammy said it best -- The thing that kills Overwatch beyond the greedy corporate shit is the fact that Blizzard tries so hard to dictate the meta. There's no room for players to evolve in how they play the game. Every character is stuck in a rock-paper-scissors style of balancing, every cool trick players discover is immediately patched out, and every ability works exactly the same way every time you use it. It leaves players in a quagmire of "play one match, played them all" that stops being fun for people who play TF2, which is more than happy to let you run wild with all of the tools it provides.
Gaming died when the "cool trick" became always removed instead of added to every character and preferably multiple times then balanced. Whiny babies on forums mad they died too fast to realize it lets them kill fast as well. I blame the decline of mankind's warrior instinct.
@@Seedr0 I wouldn't say that, Overwatch sometimes takes those cool tricks and makes them official - by which I mean a watered-down version that, once again, always works the exact same way every time you use it.
"switch at any time" also means that there isn't really any sort of inherent value or comp a team has m. just pingpong counterpicks back and forth. any time anyone complained about a character that character got nerfed into the ground. roadhog was literally always a bad hero, he fed the enemy ult charge, originally had to stand still to heal, had 4 shots in his clip. his entire game plan revolved around punishing predictable players who would hang around corners. hard countered by every other tank at the time because of barriers. but bad players complain about hook catching them around corners, so hook gets nerfed. then they complain about getting oneshot so his damage gets nerfed too. why the fuck would you ever play this character anymore? the next time he was ever relevant was when kiriko came out and literally helped him ignore his weaknesses
@@ApexGale I mean one of the top 10 tanks every season since the start of Overwatch 2 is a hog one trick, so it sounds like a skill issue on your part.
Most of these people comparing the two probably arent really familiar with the history of arena shooters and dont really see all the heritage TF2 carries on
I feel like a lot of the comparisons between the two games were made at a very surface level. ‘Look, TF2’s Engineer and Overwatch’s Torb both build an automatic turret! Look, Medic and Mercy both heal with healing beams! Look, both games have a mode where you push a cart!’, but like, two things can have one or two similar concepts, but the rest is so unfathomably different that they’re not comparable.
One thing that may be overlooked by many people is TF2 visuals vs OW visuals. One thing I adore about TF2 is its focus and respect on visual clarity. If you take a screenshot of regular OW gameplay, it is a complete eyesore. You can barely see what’s going on, which is terrible for an FPS game. In TF2, the devs really went out of their way to make sure you instantly knew what was in front of you at all times. To the point of making maps in Black and White first to make sure the TF2 Mercs has distinct saturation from the map itself.
@@anon-y8w Valve's only fault right now is not actually having someone who cares about the game's artstyle moderate the cosmetic additions, thus the community tries adding lazy or artstyle-breaking cosmetics to the game for easy cash, if there was a semblance of moderation on what gets added to the game, the bar would still be high and cosmetics would at least be good.
Yeah I think this just comes from a lack of experience and respect for the game. The visuals in Overwatch can't be beat, at least not by TF2, and the game really isn't an eyesore when you know what you are doing.
you can always just have a config that removes all cosmetics from rendering. another pro for tf2. it's moddable clientside, so you can install new animations, audio, hud, etc.@@M0D776
@dyslexicbatnam1350pretty much this. blizzard has the same copy+paste formula for every game they release. Thats why they thought they could get away with OW2
@dyslexicbatnam1350Diversity is seriously the least offensive thing about the garbage fire that is Overwatch. Where does your head have to be at to pick out “the diversity” as the main issue of that game?
It's a semantic argument, people are gonna call it what they want to call it but at it's core yes, TF2 is an arena shooter with classes. Overwatch was one of if not the the first hero shooters and it was definitely one of the first to kill off arena shooter features in order to ape ideas from MOBAs like ability cooldowns.
About the map design: TF2: I found an alter path, it must be: 1. Shortcut 2. A long way to battlefield/enemyspawn, but you can use scout/soldier rocket jump/demo stick jump/etc to get a risky advantage 3. A side way to battlefield and you can attack enemy not in front but in their side 4. Mass ammo pack/Medical kit. 5. A shallow end. Clearly not a real way but a great position for defending. 6. Just another normal way to battlefield (Dev offers a lot advantage if you want to play aggressive/passive. If anything goes wrong, minimum loss) OW: 1. Deep Dead End. 2. No Medical kit. 3. Terrible position for ambushing/defending. 4. Have to turn back and Make massive time loss. (Dev makes you have to remember their static design so you need to know most of them are shit. If anything goes wrong, mass loss)
I think for overwatch, number 3 is the only accurate one, but then again, that's EVERY alternative path, making maps choke hell. Very few maps have alternative pathing that is actually beneficial and helps the flow of gameplay. And by that I mean literally 2 maps, king's row and lijiang tower.
Man the time waste is so true. There's way less mobility in Overwatch, very character based. In TF2 you'd think "Oh, scout must be the mobility class" But no... almost every class has some sort of mobility and those who don't have a good characteristic for surprise playstyles or avoiding/tanking damage. Heavy has none, but he's an absolute killer at jumping around corners. Sniper is... sniper. And well... actually everyone else has mobility. Scout is obvious, Soldier has rockets, Pyro has detonator or deflecting rockets, Demo has stickies and shields, Engineer has the wrangler, Medic is faster than average and has the quick-fix and Spy has also above average speed and weapons that increase it.
@@diydylana3151 There's no real benefit to flanking in Overwatch. In 99% of scenarios you are much better off plinking away at the enemy alongside your team until you get ults, not flanking around to a team that's so far up each other's ass that you'll get killed in a nanosecond anyways.
@@asittingduck4786 i think the main thing that ruins overwatch movement for me is the amount of air control you have, there isnt really any point in "learning" movement in overwatch the same way there is in source games like tf2, cs, or apex because of how much room for error there is
HELLOOO?? DOOM?? BALL??? so many trash takes here exactly what i expected from braindead valve glazers. you have 1 hour on the game of course your trash and dont know how any of the characters work
@@toastfyFINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT the reason people still play Overwatch is because it has the most unique characters, ever. Doom and Ball are the paragons of that sentiment. You can play a sniper in any game, you can use a shotgun in any game, but if you want to be a giant chaotic mech or a huge fist man that can fly around the map, Overwatch is the ONLY game you can do that in
The small team size of 5s is so punishing for casual matches. If one or two of your teammates are dogshit or off doing their own thing, the match is already over.
It's both good and bad imo. It's good in the way that it's easier to transition from casual to comp. But it's bad because it is like you point out less fun and bad for casual players. Personally I prefer having the 2 different like tf2. It's a shame valve never gave tf2 the comp leg up it needed when comp MM came out and they just allowed everything. 6v6 on PL maps is as bad as a "casual" OW match.
But how is the competitive aspect of TF2? I feel like there's only casual, so what's the point in playing? I find it difficult to engage with multiplayer stuff if there isn't a competitive aspect, unless it's an MMO
@@Elhombre95382 There is a really good competitive aspect it's just not run by valve. It's run by communities. Which has been the case since tf2 came out. To my knowledge Valve has never actively supported TF2's comp side. Part of that is the age of the game and part of that is just TF2 being treated like the red headed step child of Valve. The built in Comp mode is garbage because valve decided to use their own idea of comp and try to make the meta what they wanted which doesn't work. Instead of just adopting the comp mode that already existed run by community and changing some minor things to make it more accessible.
@@supertrollfaxnoprinter3329 sorry he didnt know a super lowkey thing that was probably found out on accident, stop being such a loser and insulting people cause they dont know or dont care to know about some miniscule thing
Overwatch is closer to League of Legends than it is to TF2. What makes TF2 different is that it *does* happen that, for example, a Scout pops off and downs the entire enemy team by himself. Such plays are far more rare in Overwatch because even when they happen, they *require* the team to be seriously on point for such plays. Without the tank shielding for example, whichever damage dealer team wipes would've died in an instant. It could be seen as a TF2 equivalent of if team wipes by a single player only happened if the player in question got uber. Another problem is the Ultimate dynamic. TF2 has one ultimate only - Uber. This means everyone can get good at "tracking uber" and sensing when one might happen, but in OW it's just too much spam. Everyone can die because an unexpected uber popped out, and that significantly slows down gameplay and results in a lot of "ult fights" being deciders. This means individual skill matters less and the availability of the ultimates/how well they combine matters more, which is far more about the characters in question than the actual players. Again by contrast, yes uber is important for offensive pushes in TF2, but in general the way it tends to unfold is that uber is used to do things like eliminate engineer sentries, reach advantageous positions on the map, or kill key damage dealers IF the opponent doesn't counter-uber, which is often the case. Basically, it's the initiator and a disadvantage to deal with should one team lack it, but after that it's largely about the skill of the players, whilst in OW the ults *themselves* are what end the fight. *TL;DR* Overwatch is far more "hard-coded." The most simplistic way to acknowledge this is that OW has hard-counters, but in TF2, counters are usually very soft. TF2 lets the players "fill in the blanks" with their individual skill to a far greater degree, whereas the skills and cooldown mechanics of OW make matchups much more predictable. Lack of mobility does this too: Tracer's base run speed is actual comparable to *Pyro.* One of the fastest OW characters is only about as fast as the average TF2 character. This, again, shows how much more hindered OW players are by the limitations of their class than the TF2 ones are.
Scout, double jump, 125 (low) health, small hitbox. Heavy, slow, 300 hp. medium hitbox. Genji, double jump, 200 (now 250)(low) health, small hitbox. Reinhardt, same speed as everyone, 400 hp and 300 armored hp, a giant shield with 1400 hp.
Something else as well on the Uber/Ultimate comparison, you can RESET uber charge by killing the medic. Plus the medic MUST be doing something to gain Uber, it's never passive. Plus he has specific strategies that maximize Uber build, as well as many many times when he should give up on those max build rate strategies to save himself or help the team better. Many choices in how you build Uber, lots of tension in surviving long enough to use it well, and many chances for a competent enemy to stop you. In Overwatch, atop all the things you mentioned, you just passively gain Ultimate and it carries over between lives. There's no way to stop ultimates other than stuff them when they arrive, usually with your own ultimates (which is more just match-up dependent character choice bs, in a game where they removed a good chunk of your freedom to swap and adapt). Even if we're talking about minimizing ultimate build up, usually you gain ult faster via dealing damage, not even kills. So uh, to stop their build up, just don't get hit? In the game where movement is simplified, and "Guy who gets hit a lot" is a dedicated role? You could say shields I suppose but uh does anyone enjoy dealing with those? (tangent rant) Reinhardt in the launch-era ecosystem of overwatch was somewhat interesting because of how much decision making he does controlling his shield, and how he must maintain it actively, giving up his ability do anything else like reposition or deal damage (although he still has a lot of problems). But most other shield users have just varying levels of fire and forget damage sponge abilities with rapid start-up times and relatively lenient risks such as cooldowns. The fact that so many characters even need to be shielded, and are NOT expected to have a high skill ceiling for avoiding damage on their own, is a crying shame.
Then Valve flips the entire thing TWICE, (Team Fortress Classic) (Team Fortress 2 Brotherhood of Arms, cancelled.) and makes a game entirely different. Thats the fun with Valve
i think that the sheer volume of characters to choose from makes the balancing of the game kinda dogshit, since having so many heroes makes it so that the devs have to juggle so many variables and it ends up resulting in certain comps/heroes being way out of the league of others. the game's focus on counterplay also makes playing tank in role queue a chore, because a lot of matches you'll have to swap pretty often to match the enemy team's tank e.g. playing zarya into dva or ram into rein. the support role is completely fucked because of how op it is, with almost every member of the support role being able to defend themselves against any dps or tank. while this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it means that supports like kiriko or ana can quite literally solo almost any hero because of their kit, making tank and dps frustrating to play. the tank role no longer has any freedom because of there only being 1 tank now. this means that the tank is almost required to constantly play frontline, as the team will have no formation if they are not there, meaning more independent tanks like hog are much more difficult to use now because the tank has to be protecting the team at all times, and hog is not built to do that, instead moving around the objective and getting valuable picks with his hook and applying pressure, like in ow1. his entire kit is focused on that really, as his breather lets him do this for prolonged periods and his whole hog lets him solo one or two people in a cramped environment. 1 tank also means that characters like doom or ball are hard to learn, as you have to balance what you focus your attention on. again, while this isnt really a bad thing, it results in a lot of people playing the wrong tanks into the wrong comps, or playing doom or ball and then subsequently throwing because they couldn't provide a stable frontline. the dependance on your teammates in ow2 makes the game much more frustrating, as you could be playing your nuts off and still end up losing because of a bad teammate or comp
its hilarious how OW2 has like 40 different heros to play from with hundreds of different abilities and ultimates, and yet has nowhere even near as much variety in gameplay than TF2 has with just 9 classes
I wouldn't even say it just makes the balancing bad. The problem with games that have so many characters that try to keep them "balanced" in a never ending cycle is that inevitably, some stuff that absolutely no one likes to play against is gonna be good or viable, and then you're going to have to deal with it no matter what. Its not really a problem in tf2s comp scene because they have custom rulesets and formats, where weapons or strategies that people don't enjoy playing against aren't allowed. Overwatch has some pretty well designed heroes like tracer, zen, mcree and luico. But for every well designed hero there is some shit like moira, brig, mei, doomfist, hamster ect that absolutely no one enjoys playing against and you will just inevitably have to deal with them being meta at some point because of the nature of the games balance. Tf2 on the other hand just accepts that some things are bad and good and doesn't really try to fix it too hard. Everyone knows medic is op and everyone is fine because people like medic and people have gotten used to a game where medic is essential.
@@vin8754am I tripping or is the game not just shoot gun and jump with explosives with the exception of pyro engineer and spy? Preferring TF2 is fine but acting like it has more variety is just nonsense.
@@lukasg4807I think he's talking about the weapon varity. But yeah a lot of tf2 weapons are small stat changers and nothing that shakes up the fundamental class. Neither are lacking in varity from what I've played
@@lukasg4807 youre not. tf2 puts small twists on 9 classes through loadouts while most of the many ow heroes are immensely different from each other, but this isnt even an inherently bad thing for tf2. These people just love to shit on ow for internet points, i swear he came up with that on the very spot and/or has never played ow.
I had a pretty good time with Overwatch years ago, and only accomplished it by ignoring quick play and competitive and maining the arcade section only.
ster had faith that these issues would be fixed but he didn’t realize that blizzard was the worst game company to actually develop a video game for any reason other than cheap profit incentive
It's not just that you're going against the vaccinator/wrangler full-time, it's that every ability is also on a timer -- so it's like going against the vaccinator/wrangler with the gas passer!
I play both games and B4nny is definitely right on a lot of things. Individual impact and the rock-paper-scissors dynamic forcing you to play what you have to rather than what you want can make Overwatch pretty unfun. Under performing means toxicity and in every other match there is always somebody in the lobby getting mad at somebody. Also the map designs aren’t that strong because unlike TF2, Overwatch has a massive roster that a map has to cater to, which is just pretty much impossible compared to the 9 classes of TF2.
Speaks volumes about how low he has the bar. Just not talking trash about someone is a step up for him lmao I dont like xqc either but... nah hes trash
@@PotentialGrim Dead game is when theres no players. TF2 has loyal fanbase and this game been around almost 20 years LOL.. not a lot games can live as long without dying like that.
I hate it because despite being a team based game, way more than tf2. Hardly anyone actually goes in voice chat and everyone becomes really defensive when you ask them to switch character to counter someone else, even though that is what overwatch is and how it is supposed to be played. While in Tf2 there are always people in voice chat and while there is a bunch of teamwork involved you can play and have fun just being a solo player. Except in overwatch, if you aren’t playing as a team you are at a sever disadvantage and having one player doing badly can really affect your whole team’s performance.
Him talking about the differences between TF2 and Overwatch while fucking rocket jumping across the screen is subtly hilarious. That's the different right there. Overwatch is a neutered game with a safety net. Characters, and whole roles have to be coddled. They have to continuously place bandaid solutions over other bandaid solutions by restricting player freedom and freedom in the experience. It started at the very beginning with the addition of hero limits. Then it carried on to role limit, then role lock, then going from 6v6 to 5v5. Every step in Overwatch's overall game design has been restrictive, despite the fact that the game was ORIGINALLY DESIGNED for swapping. It doesn't matter now though. No one on the team shares that philosophy anymore because everyone pretty much left. Now the people leftover have to pick up the scraps of what they were handed, with a game that was meant to be an MMO at some point down the line while higher ups instead funneled money and forced towards a competitive scene. Fumbled, mistreated, neglected, and betrayed. That's the Legacy of Overwatch.
After years of playing soldier in TF2, I remember trying overwatch w/ friends and playing the Egyptian rocketeer woman and I wanted to use my ultimate and I audibly said into the group vc "wait I just hit q??" 😂 TF2 FOREVER 🦅🇺🇲
That's what TF2 did to og TFC and QWF movement. TF2 completely dumbed down and neutered any sort of skilled movement and most skill mechanics in order to make it easier for players. TF2 movement is a joke, its like controlling a two tonne slab of meat compared to Team Fortress Classic and Quake World Fortress. It's a disgrace of a sequel and not even a TF game at its core.
@@LordVader1094 But its true lol. TFC is a much harder game, to the point where TFC oldheads hate TF2. In my opinnion TF2 is better since you dont have to spend 4 weeks grinding it just to be ok at it, however people are entitled to their opinnions no?
A huge issue was the wide disparity between hero skill expression. Characters like Winston were reduced almost entirely down to "game-sense-reliant" which is another way of saying "crutch." Ultimates were especially bad for the game, because they made the parts of hero kits that took the least skill be the most game changing, so a lot of interesting high complexity plays were diminished and overshadowed by the Q button. Look up Overwatch esports highlights, it's almost all Q buttons unless it's a Widowmaker POV. I really liked Overwatch at launch, and it has gotten a bit worse. But honestly, I think I was a bit blinded by the hype when Overwatch was new. I now understand Overwatch at a fundamental level always had weaker design and less potential than TF2. There's a lot of other little things that neither me or b4nny mentioned that make TF2 the better game. To be fair TF2 has a lot of terrible map design too, but the difference is in TF2 you can queue for the maps you like. If TF2 forced you to queue for a random official map, you would not be so enthused with TF2's map design.
@@moothu_ lmao if the ultimate charge bar was wiped the moment you died then maybe they'd be somewhat interesting but being rewarded for just breathing is stupid
@@moothu_ i am well aware, I played plenty of overwatch, but the ult mechanic is shoehorned in so that mediocre players can get the dopamine rush of scoring the play of the game by killing like 3 players
I remember when Overwatch came out and most of my friends at the time (not my friends anymore) switched from TF2 to Overwatch. And, y’know, I bought the game to play it with them and kind of realized that everything about it just didn’t feel right. For one, I didn’t enjoy all the characters AT ALL. Everyone felt so goddamn one dimensional that it made getting to know them quite boring, especially their personalities. We got British Unstable Time Travelling Girl, Tight suited Korean Woman in a mech, and Healer who wants to help everyone and be nice to everyone. These characters feel boring, it’s literally just,”Hey guys! I’m supposed to be based on a well known stereotype! Better act like a stereotypical person to fit my character role!” In TF2, there is so much personality within the 9 classes of the game. The youngest class with the biggest ego calling others chucklenuts, A literal wannabe WWII soldier with an insane thought process, and a doctor who lost their medical license over extracting somebody’s skeleton. There’s just so much to unpack from all classes, it really makes them stand out. Another thing that I don’t like is how plain and unnatural Overwatch’s animations are. I know we all experience recoil when we shoot something, that’s normal, but it doesn’t feel THAT elastic to recover from. Seeing your gun just bounce up and down so unrealistically just makes me feel motion sick. Torbjorn’s hammer hitting nothing in the air, McCree’s Horrendous Reload Animation, there’s just so much examples to go off by. Of course, I would get into how the competitive scene for OW completely ruined the game, but I’m pretty sure other people can speak or already have spoken for me about that one. tl;dr Quality and Character wise, Overwatch sucks and TF2 rules
The only thing I'm going to contradict you about is Cassdy's revolver and Spy's, Spy has by far the worst of both, you don't feel the power of a revolver at all, the reloading animation is much worse and on top of that it's bugged, it seems that a toy shoots and the ambassador sucks, the animations look like the huge cannon is a joke
i don’t want to be rude, but this whole thing reads a little like “tf2 better because i like tf2 and i don’t like ow” just to be clear, there’s nothing wrong with that opinion, but the way it’s written makes it sound like it’s objective. for example, if i really wanted to, i could also reduce tf2’s classes into a short phrase at best. for example, medic is just some crazy doctor. sniper is just some guy from australia. that’s not really fair to any of the characters though, in my opinion, because the way they flesh them out (in both games imo) is what makes them interesting. can’t say much about the animations, i’ve personally never had a problem with either games, bur again, that’s just me.
@@defaultdan7923yeah tbh most TF2 characters have a lot of similarities with each other. Loudness, cockiness bordering on delusion, and general sadism, the kind of stuff that I genuinely despise from the OW2 cast is abundant in the TF2 cast. Obviously the mercs all have their individual charm and interesting backgrounds you have to go relatively out of your way to find out about (because Valve doesn’t care about lore anymore), but just based off of a single impression you probably wouldn’t find them very captivating. Ig TF2 is less “clickbaity” than OW because the mercs do all have very interesting backgrounds, while some OW characters really are just their one catchphrase, but there’s still plenty of depth to be found in the OW universe. I almost find TF2 limited in its setting, even if the character work is good, but that’s a topic for another day.
a little late to the party, but if you pay attention you'll notice that whenever tf2 players complain about the game, what they're actually complaining about is the lack of updates or the cheating problems. they never complain about the mechanics themselves. that's not really the case when it comes to Ow complaints, which, from what I gathered, apart from the overall greedy monetization and the cancelled PVE mode, usually includes both the garbage balancing and compromised visibility. those that played both games will also often complain about the skill system and ultimates and movement and what not
but there is complaints about tf2 mechanics, unless i'm misunderstanding this: people complain about snipers and pyros for example, and there's probably complaints about many weapons being unbalanced, like the scorch shot
@@cfaibah yeah okay fair, i mostly know of FishOnAStick doing weapon/class discussion. Mostly it's just the playerbase complaining in the game and on steam
Don't forget that OW went to all the trouble of making a setting with unique, visually distinct characters, with each either being a good guy or bad guy, and then decided not to split them into seperate teams ingame, so they needed to add colored outlines to the characters do players could tell who wad on their team and who wasn't. Bad design.
??? this might be the dumbest thing I've read in this comment section. Did you want a roleplay style game where you play as overwatch vs talon or what??
play lucio, doomfist or ball and look up some movement techs doom and ball have like 100s of techs for how their skills interact with momentum and the map geometry
@@lilwintery6434 So does tf2, but the way the movement is used is different. TF2 basically relies on movement: faster and more maneuverable you are, the harder for you to die.
@@lilwintery6434overwatch 2 movement has wayyyyyy less depth, the charge mechanic + airstrafing in tf2 alone has more depth than all the movement in ow2 combined, and I'm someone who played both games.
@@markshmellomd1370 You are wrong on this one. I have played lots of Overwatch some years ago and there was a lot to learn on Lucio's wallride ability plus all the rollouts. There were tons of mechanical techniques to learn
@@Matricias look up some rocket jump surf videos bud. i've played both overwatch and tf2 for atleast 500hrs+ and the complexities that tf2 has for movement dwarf overwatch. especially since the devs keep removing and dumbing down any movement techs that are found. like doomfist who was guted from the OW2 beta
They're fundamentally very different games, the only overlap is that they're team vs team shooters with a select cast of unique characters to choose from. The gamemodes are the same too ig, but the moba elements of cooldowns and ultimates are a massive part of overwatchs identity. The way they design the characters is an entire different philosophy because of this, focusing on counters and a rock paper scissors style of balancing
Bro's saying it in a rlly harsh and bit exaggerated tone; but he's right. And that same shit unfortunately aplies to most modern "competitive" games, we rarely have any real comp integrity nowadays.
That's honestly a pretty valid take. Like with MOBA games, Overwatch also limits itself to 5 players per team. While in TF2, the number of players on each team doesn't exactly matter as long as it's fairly even. If you're poorly performing on TF2 and there's a large number of players on the server, no one's, most likely, going to notice from all the chaos that surrounds them. So, it doesn't exactly stress you to get good any faster, you can just improve on your own speed. In Overwatch, it's always 10 or less players per server. 5 for each team. So there is a much bigger demand of competiive play rather than casual, even on said casual servers and even arcade servers. Not doing too well? That can severly and poorly impact the performance on the rest of the team mainly because of how behind you are compared to the rest. It's not a good look and can often lead to toxic interactions inside the team, to make matters worse. I love both games despite both of their falls from grace. But, I will admit how high my anxiety can raise a bit when entering any Overwatch lobby. Plus with the amount of characters Overwatch has, I think that can lead to some certain balance issues even with some modes enforcing you to choose from only one subsection.
He literally mentioned the wrangler and vaccinator. Oh wait, those are broken TF2 weapons. OW2 honestly feels like its balance is quite solid, I can always open up with reaper and do reasonably well even if they’re running double sniper because I feed off of the tank and their back line is vulnerable. I agree that the various OW1 metas have been problematic, but they’ve generally been erased in OW2. I think the rock paper scissors dynamic creates coordinated team scenarios which can be as fun as throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks in TF2. However, with the wrangler equipped, the engineer presses 2 on his keyboard and completely freezes the match for everyone. While the vaccinator is only necessarily strong in 6v6, and cases like these are generally outliers, the lack of dev support makes them just that more apparent. They did eventually nerf the reserve shooter but they didn’t care about poor balancing as much as player outcry. There’s a reason B4nny didn’t mention TF2 balancing. It’s because the comp scene felt like they had to take it in their own hands.
The get out of jail free cards in overwatch kill me, like no reaper I did not get you down to one health just for you to give yourself 100% invincibility, a massive speed boost, while still being able to be healed to full. And that applies to like half the characters too, where they have some way to just ensure they will 100% survive. Look at Dva, wrecking ball, Moira, sombra, mei, Winston, roadhog. And then you gotta worry about all the fuck you I win team fight buttons where you just sorta have to let them win or you just die when it’s not your fault. On demand invincibility for free or huge AOE one shots that you don’t even have to sim make up half the ults and you don’t even have to avoid dying or anything to get them
I see the same weirdness in Fortnite. Trying to make it as childish as possible (low violence, disney / pixar artstyle, characters SMILING constanly, guns looking like toys). But at the same time promoting constant slaughtering eachother and making sexy skins (you have to pay for) with unnecessarily big butts and tight clothing. Please just choose one, either violent and horny OR appealing to children xD TF2 also looks very cartoony but that's where it ends: it has tons of borderline un-political correctness, blood and gore and nothing trying to reel you in by being as sexually appealing as possible.
yeah u can say the same for CSGO vs TF2, in CSGO if u don't play well and do exactly what they want you to do they get mad at you, in TF2 it's more chill, less toxic
You say that , but try playing actual competitive tf2 and try to say that again. Overwatch casual is pretty chill. comp is where all the sweats are. Thats true for basically every game with a comp mode.
I think what really appeals to me about tf2 is as a sport it feels more like basketball rather than football where there isn’t much freedom to individually take over. In TF2 having great player composition is much more valuable than a good team composition based off class
My personal reason why I don't play overwatch but tf2 is because I found overwatch to be overcomplicated in desine and all the amount of things happening on the screen at once just confuse me, like I can't even tell who is on my team and who isint, did I kill that guy ore not. Whit 32 caracters to chose I bet only half has an interesting game desine and personalities and I bet that there are characters that have the same job as the other once but whit diferent weapons and a bit of objective change. Some of the caracters are unintresting and just feal like they are there to fill out the gaps and not add anything to the game. Also the amounts of unfair mechanics i shaw and pepole complain about
Average ranked match in OW1 was to hide behind a shield tank and spam the shield tank of the enemy team while looking for an opening. At some point one of the shields broke faster and that made the opposite team rush in with ultimate combo and usually secure the objective. In TF2 you have constant shifting of forces, TF2 is team based game but in reality it's a deathmatch with team elements. In TF2 if you shoot enemy a few times you get an easy kill, in Overwatch if you manage to get to enemy team's backline your damage will get outhealed and you will also get stunned/CC'd and killed... as an assasin character...
Thats what good about Overwatch. It has strategic depth to how you defend and build your team composition. You can play Dive, Rush, Poke. And all play COMPLETELY different from each other. You sond like a person who bever played more than 2 hours of Overwatch
As a spy, if the enemy team is all grouped up, and their perception is focused on the front, you could take out the entire enemy team in mere seconds However, this is easily countered with good communication, to avoid identity theft
i liked OW1 once i discovered Ana, the ability to be a hybrid damage dealer/healer with utility and real crowd control, AND be flashy/clutch at the same time was very refreshing. despite that, i agree that it feels like playing against wrangler/vaccinator all the time. i don't know that TF2 is "better", but i prefer to play it over OW2. That said, id never touch TF2 comp, whereas i used to enjoy playing ranked in OW1.
The issue I have is that there are so many heroes to pick from. Alot of the time they all do the same thing, with the only differentiating thing being how they do it, while the TF2 cast is very simple with only 9 mercs compared to Overwatch 2's 30 + heroes, and each of them are special in their own way. Scout can do high damage with his scattergun but has low health, Heavy has his minigun and relies more on sustained damage rather than pulse damage, Medic is a healer who isn't absolutely useless when they are confronted (cough) mercy (cough), Spy is ment to be sneaky and can use his disguises to fool the enemy (doesn't work very well though), but still, each character has a drastically differant way to play them compared to the other, unlike overwatch.
@@toastfy I mean I love both games, Ow2 right now i mostly played because it actually gets updates, yeah i don't like blizzard that much but whatever. I dont know why tf2 players feel the need to look down on overwatch like they've got it better, when valve if im honest treats the game even worse.
@@Lunamagic-op8ypfacts. i rather play a game that gets updates every 2 months than a game where the company doesn’t care and rather let the community makes updates for them
@@toastfy tf2 doesn't get updates outside of new hats and community maps. Ow2 gets balance, new hero's (which is equivalent of getting new weapons). Is it always good? No, but at least it usually shakes up the game for a while. Not saying tf2 is bad but you can barely call the updates, updates at this point. This is coming from someone who loved tf2 for years and years and my average game ontop of that is riddled with bots anyway
I played OW when it came out and that's how I felt. The "hard countering" issue was a huge turnoff for me. When you played as certain characters and ran into another particular character, sometimes you'd just shrug and go, "I guess I'll die then."
I also feel as if overwatch lacks the sense of a tight-knit player community that tf2 has to the point where playing tf2 feels like home whereas overwatch feels like you're at some party. All flashy and bright, but no sense of belonging. That's my take on it personally
Personally, I just love TF2 more because the 12 to 16 or even 50-sized teams makes the game much more random and fun. If Overwatch implemented a 12v12, I could see myself crawling back to it. And let’s be honest, Benny’s just dick riding TF2 because he’s seen what happened to other people who switched. Has he seen our competitive community? 6s just bans everything that doesn’t make the game “Hyperquake” and Highlander is hide and seek from the enemy sniper. (I know he’s a competitive player, but he can’t just paint it all sunshine and rainbows for us)
I like both TF2 and Overwatch, I really don't like it when someone talks shit about one or the other. They're different games, just like b4nny said here.. but you can appreciate them on their own, you don't necessarily need to compare them. (also, based on the way he's talking about the game, he's probably only tried it once or twice. I still think he'd be among one of the best in it if he tried seriously though, he's an amazing player obv.)
Overwatch has always struggled with character balance and map design since the closed beta. I was a participant. A few of the characters were unbalanced from the start and nothing was done to put their variables in a proper well rounded result. Instead of maintaining stable baselines and following fundamental rules of balance tradeoffs, blizzard kept adding more heroes which skewed things even further. Even after adding new characters the rest of the roster would essentially go ignored. Why are there roots, stuns, and hard-negations present? Why do tanks have both higher health pools and faster move speed that healers? A perfect analogy of balance would be the classic rogue vs tank debate paradigm. Scout moves fast, hits hard, but has a smaller health pool. Heavy has more health devastating close-mid range damage, but a massive hitbox, slow move speed, and he's a sitting duck while firing. Heavy being a sitting duck requires medics or coordinated offensive strategies to keep him alive in critical moments. Scout and heavy are the perfect examples of how to build character balance. In overwatch, roadhog has a faster move speed, more DPS, stuns, self healing, and a 2 (3 if using the melee tech) shot wombo combo against lower health classes where literally nothing the low health victim can do as an individual to survive. If heavy had these features could you imagine how ungodly broken he would be? It just never made sense. Another aspect of why OW is bad is that every character is either part of the meta or totally useless. There isn't much else to it. In TF2 every character is meta at all times. From it's inception overwatch never understood the fact that it's a ripoff of an arena shooter without following any of the arena shooter gameplay formulas. It was always a disjointed, unbalanced, nonsensical cash grab. I could pick apart every character in OW's roster, cross compare the strengths and weaknesses with the rest of the roster, and then end up utterly confused with how blizzard thought the hero variables and abilities were acceptable.
real question is why are so many TF2 players so insecure about their game, like Overwatch fans and creators don't ever even talk about TF2 but Overwatch is a regular in conversation in the TF2 community
It’s because during the start beginning of Overwatch, there was a bit of trash talking that triggered the TF2 crowd. As for why Overwatch fans don’t trash talk TF2 is because they are too busy blaming their teammates, game mechanics, or monetization lol.
@@LordDaret i gotta be honest, i think most Overwatch players just don't care about TF2, like they don't shit talk TF2 because they never even think about TF2
I’ve tried to play tf2 multiple times. Its so confusing and hard to approach. I’m willing to bet if I had played it when it was popular I would agree with this guy. But my experience on the game has never been pleasant
that's fair, I have 4k hours in TF2, and in my experience with the community about 80% of the playerbase couldn't complete even the most basic of rocket jumping maps and honestly, can't really blame them, the only way to actually learn how to rocket jump properly is if you go out of your way to look up tutorials on the internet
Doesn't help of course that the matchmaking update and bot problems largely killed off player-run servers which were the beating heart of TF2's community, but it's an inherently chaotic game, especially when you're playing casually solo. Gotta get together with friends, once you're in good company and start getting that playtime up you can start to see through the chaos.
Bunny is the goat of TF2 and he's the beating heart of competitive. Somebody to strive towards. TF2 is a much better game in my opinion even if it's no longer getting updates.
I went from obsessively playing overwatch everyday on release to almost never when season 1 started and ranked was released. I have never seen all the fun out of a game get sucked out so fast. Once they removed the ability to pick multiple of the same hero I gave up on the game and uninstalled. Like... why would you want to be more like league of legends in a shooter??
I think the biggest problem with overwatch is the hero's have zero counterplay. If someone picks a hero that counter's yours, unless there is a massive skill gap, you're just fucked. You HAVE to switch to a different hero because they counter yours. That's not the case in tf2. Pyro counters soldier but theres options soldier can take to beat a pyro. If you're playing a projectile character like hanzo or junkrat and the enemy is running pharah, you're fucked. Gg, switch characters or lose the round.
Nothing beats that lovely arena shooter styled movement. OW felt like it had 3x gravity and you can’t gain actual usable momentum like in TF2 without an ability with a cooldown timer.
I don't see any objective points made in this video aside from him saying these two games are vastly different, everything else seemed really biased. He has every right to not like OW but his reasoning for calling it trash was really one sided. They are two very different games that appeal to two very different gamers
I really hate that a major community figure like b4nny is supporting the lazy and tired arguments of TF2 fanboys that don't understand overwatch at a basic level. I prefer TF2, but idk how you can in good faith call Overwatch "trash" when it was for a while one of the most popular games in the world. You gotta figure you're missing something at that point, right?
he absolutely makes good points. Moba's are based on rock paper scissors dynamics. Banny is a pro player, and as he said he doesn't like this, as it limits individual impact. i don't think this makes overwatch a bad game, just not what banny is looking for
@@diney7085you can call plenty of things trash for simple reasons, even if they are popular. i generally do agree with you i imagine, but overwatch has very seldom had a good and fun competitive scene. the casual scene is super subjective, but b4nny wouldnt be playing there. i think its pretty fair to call overwatch’s competitive scene trash, and i feel like a lot of overwatch pros would agree.
@@diney7085 Popularity invalidates the "trash" label? - I'm not so sure about that. Evaluate it on its own design goals. It was supposed to be a PVE Hero MOBA but it got completely lost in the temporary popularity of a PVP shooter. The competitive scene got milked for all it was worth, then the PVE got cancelled, and the paywall grew to absurd heights. I feel like "trash" is about the nicest label possible. One could say the same about TF2's state of abandonment and I don't think b4nny could disagree. But again if you evaluate TF2 on its own goals, it accomplished everything and then some long ago.
ive never played overwatch, but something that ive always thought about is the sheer number of characters in overwatch, like that has to be extremely difficult if not impossible to properly balance right? i mean tf2 has had a hard enough time over the 10 years the game was getting updates to balance the classes and weapons in both more casual and competitive enviornments, and while there are a ton of weapons, theres only 9 classes compared to however many overwatch has. also overwatchs heroes just dont have the character the tf2 mercs ooze, imo
@@a6pukoc113TF2 was made for a casual audience. Overwatch lacks in depth compared to TF2 because of Blizzard's continued and failed attempts at shaping the meta into what they see as "exciting".
@@a6pukoc113 nah it's true tf2 was made for casual fun because the game didn't even have a competitive ranked mode until 2016 that's a whole 9 years with no ranked mode Another reason is the spy balance, the spy is completely dogshit in competitive play but valve kept nerfing him because spy was terrorizing the casuals
Great points in the video and even more so in the comments and I agree with pretty much all of it. One thing I find funny about Overwatch is that iirc the developers said they wish to reduce the importance of counter-picks. However, if you have a roster of 40 unique characters with unique abilities that aren't customisable and need to contribute as a team for success then of course counter-picks are going to be a part of the game and there's nothing they can do about it. I really don't see how it's possible to reduce the necessity of counter picks. If anything you would think that making the game 5v5 instead of 6v6 would INCREASE the requirement of counter-picks as there is one less player who may reduce a character's weakness. Tldr - counter picks will always be meta due to the way the game and characters are designed fundamentally.
Yes, OW is trash now, blizzard ruined it. But OG DVA was the most fun Character one could ever play. Clapping any hero 1v1 while spamming annoying voice lines and then seld destructing throwing your mech for a tripple kill was the most fun i ever had in video games. I miss those times. Overwatch changed a lot into a direction where Tanks were must-peel characters and DVA was moved from the bully tank to the Defence Matrix Bot. Sad Times.
I do agree that overall TF2 is the better game, but not for the same reasons necessarily. The overall compositions of the classes and their functions are evidently just more streamlined and tested in TF2 which makes for amazing gunplay. OW started a bit loose but could've been on the same level if not better, but focused on amassing hero content which didn't help its overall structure. Putting standard gameplay aside (which can get stale in both games comp or casual), TF2 did the smart thing by allowing its playerbase to reign the steads, which greatly improved replayability, and opened up new ways to play the game with just a bare minimum of characters and mechanics. Basically TF2 is a case of doing small things really, really well while OW has a lot of high potential content that didn't really get fleshed out as much as they should have. Both games are flawed in their own rights, but in comparison people generally don't care about TF2's issues when playing the game. People do when playing Overwatch. Though, I have not played OW2, so all my opinions are moot on that one.
Prob the most sane take on here. I think they are 2 different but similar games. They are both like faster-paced arena shooters but with no weapon pickups and a class/hero system instead. OW is like if you took moba characters and threw them into an fps and TF2 is like if you took the traditional arena shooter weapons and distributed them across characters.
Yeah, overwatch operates a lot on the hype of new characters being added and it's a mess for balancing. That being said TF2 does kind of have some issues with non-vanilla weapons effectively turning certain classes into totally different characters which can make the careful balancing of the base game a little iffy, but I'd take that over overwatch's approach of just sanitizing every character down to a baseline for the sake of keeping things "balanced".
I kinda stopped playing TF2 when hats with effects were introduced and every public server was 24v24 or something like that. But he definitely has a point. I enjoyed TF2 more but I think you really need to be in a clan to be able to enjoy TF2 nowadays.
TF2 keeps it simple. The classes and subclasses arent wildly different, and its digestable. But because of its simplicity, theres alot of emergent gaemplay in it, that makes TF2 have a much higher skill ceiling but not impossible to get into. Also people arent bullet sponges. Also its impractical asf to "main" a character on TF2. Everybody switches between stuff they like. Also TF2 got actual weapons you can unlock. Litterally you can litterally make CUSTOM CLASSES to suit what your doing. Ion even know how to articulate it but the games just more fun in general. OW is too corny and the community is infested with redditors.
"Custom classes" other than a few items changing playstyles like demoknight, Soldier banners, mediguns, and things like the flare gun or Bonk! most of the extra weapons in TF2 are just minor stat changes. Scout will always be fast and use a shotgun, Soldier will always be mobile, tanky, and use a rocket launcher, Heavy will always focus on using a minigun, Spy will always focus on being stealthy and going for backstabs or sapping buildings. Outside of a few notable subclasses, the weapons do not change the core gameplay of each class. In OW, sure none of the heroes on their own are customizable, but each one is as or more unique than any TF2 subclass, and the "customization" is in finding unique hero combos to do unique things, like speedboosting a Rein and Mei into close quarters as Lucio rather than just pumping heals into them as any other support, or accompanying a flanking DPS as Kiriko to increase their effectiveness. The gameplay is all about synergizing with your team, which is more satisfying to pull off successfully than just doing puff-n-sting Pyro combos.
You can argue that you like the simplicity of tf2 more, that's ok! But to claim that simplicity = higher skill ceiling is... completely false. Overwatch has 10x the heroes that each have their own 2-3 abilities + ultimates + passives and you need to know how each one these things interact with each other and how team compositions interact with each other. The extra complexity of Overwatch in terms of quantity and diversity of heroes is *explicitly* increasing the skill ceiling of the game.
Simply look at his gameplay to understand the difference. Compare TF2's rocketjumping to one key movement abilities in Overwatch. There's more depth to everything in TF2 and it requires more mechanical skill, because as he said: TF2 is a shooter, OW is a first person MOBA.
When I was making a few videos about TF2 vs OW a while ago for fun, he hit the map design on the head. Played TF2 from 2009-2019 and OW since 2019. TF2 has been, and always will be a better game. But they are VASTLY different. OW's map design is created like a line with VERY LITTLE variety, whereas TF2's map design is centered around flanking angles. OW, by its design, HAS to be linear. OW favors team based plays 80% of the time and individual plays 20% of the time and TF2 is the exact opposite. 20% team based plays and 80% individual plays.
If you're not taking advantage of the numerous flank routes and off angles in OW, you're not playing the game right. You just read that OW is all about only going down main somewhere on Reddit and assumed it was correct.
@@tau-5794 dont tell him that there are flank-based characters in overwatch, that specialize in using said flank routes to setup a big play for the team or he might implode
honestly, the main difference is that TF2 is fun even while losing, when i started i was laughing at how the f did a flying soldier sent my head flying back at spawn. i was burning shit, dying, rinse and repeat. When i tried Over watch and started losing due to the fact i was a noob, it wasnt fun, it just felt like i had no chances and the only fun matches were the one were my team carried me to victory
how the hell does anyone understand what xqc says. I literally could understand him saying "overwatch to tf2" "overwatch tf2" "tf2 overwatch" and everything else was gibberish
I can actually tell what the hell is going on in TF2 vs Overwatch being full of neon lights, laserbeams and bright decals all over the place while characters scream at the top of their lungs mapwide
I hate to be that guy, but some of what b4nny said is just not true. I mean, he has all the right to not like Overwatch, it can be a style of game he doesn't like. But what he said about lack of individual impact is just a lie, shields aren't that much proeminent in Overwatch metagame... Hell, how can someone say a game's map design is trash, when TF2 has a ton of maps that rely on choke point spamming? As someone that racked up a lot of hours on both games, I find this to be an uninformed opinion. Famous case of "I've heard that the game is like this, but I've never tried to understand/play it properly"
This is a very old clip of b4nnys back when shield meta was a thing pretty sure, back when we played shit like volskaya industries with its 1 choke point on attack, maybe you could flank with symmetra to around the side but symmetra sucked back then
I agree, it's just incredibly biased and full of assumptions, most TF2 players are a hive mind that think the same so they'll always think the game sucks because of it.
So what I'm getting from this is that most of us (the TF2 community, I mean) dislike Overwatch because they differ heavily in gameplay, even if they are both team based shooters. The reason why they HATE Overwatch is because they're just bitter people.
I know it's fun to shit on OW and put TF2 on a pedestal, but TF2 and OW are different games and have always been different games. A lot of the points he makes are really faulty. "Gamemodes are trash" It has the same gamemodes as TF2 for the most part. Payload, King of the Hill, Control Points, even CTF. The only one people unanimously hate is Push and for good reasons. "Map Design is trash" I agree the maps aren't very inspired for the most part and they're pretty boring, but I wouldn't call them trash with a few exceptions. Anubis, Paris, Moon, and all the push maps suck 100%. But Hollywood, Route 66, and Kings Row are good examples fun maps. Plus, TF2 has a lot of bad maps like Wutville, Steel, Hydro, Dustbowl, etc. That doesn't mean the game is bad just because some of the maps are bad. "Lack of Individual Impact" This one is a bit controversial, but if one person can stomp an entire match that's not a good thing. OW's problem is that matches are too swingy. That has nothing to do with individual performance, but it has everything to do with hero balancing and synergies. Both OW and TF2 focus on team synergy and cooperation. One Scout cannot take out an entire sentry nest plus the people guarding it all by himself unless there's a massive skill discrepancy. You're not always going to be the main character of a match and to expect that every game speaks of arrogance and ego. "Hard Counters, Shields, and Ultimates ruin the fun" Obviously, he doesn't like that the game is more about using abilities to counter, and that's fine. But that's how the game is. That's like complaining you can't double jump in Call of Duty or you can't eat 50 bullets in Siege. It's a different game, so there are different rules. If you don't like it, that's fine. But that's the game. It's not bad because you don't like the core of the game, it's bad for other reasons. FYI, I'm not an OW fanboy. That game lost all its fun the second they hyperfocused on competitive and not on having fun. People became super toxic, balancing was either breaking a character to the point they were bullshit or nerfing them to where they were useless. And this was before the pathetic excuse of a sequel they call OW2 which was just a way to delete the old game and install a shitty cash shop and battlepass. I'm not blindly defending OW because I know the game is not perfect. But I'm just sick of all these TF2 elitists smugly shitting on the game without understanding *why* it's bad.
The last 2 points are basically the main parts of the core issue. Its bad because it doesn't actually work. Mixing a MOBA with a Shooter just simply fails. Its just not that fun. But its REALLY not fun for people who's interested in the kind of game TF2 is. movement based arena FPS. It's so damn obvious with the dramatic design changes over the years that OW had undergone that there is inherent design issues. What you bitch about with competitive is because competitive showed the glaring issues because its people who know how to play. I remember early in the games life the transition from deathball comp to dive comp. It just proves again that movement is king. and the only way the devs could "fix" it is by adding a fuckload of stuns, which everyone hated - again proving the design issues. You picked characters for 1 of their abilities or just for a ultimate. (lets not even get into how OW intended you to swap characters on the fly but the game simultaneously punished you for it and the game functioned far too fast for it to matter). Oh, and you basically were countered by having your counter-character just basically existing on the enemy team. the game really just turns into a case of rock-paper-scissors match of constant counterpicks, it's just terrible. OW2 then tried to remedy a lot of this by streamlining all the characters along "roles", making characters more about different flavors and minor playstyle differences that fulfill similar purposes. I can go on but its such a clusterfuck of issues.
The problem is that they tried to shoehorn this game design into the competitive scene and I think b4nny's comments lean towards that mentality. The bad maps of TF2 aren't really valid for many reasons: #1 TF2 includes community made maps, #2 some of the official "bad" maps were balanced around the state of the game 15 YEARS ago, #3 some of the objectively bad maps are the most beloved in pubs - in other words they are fine maps just no good for competitive. Stop and think that the bad maps of OW are in a modern AAA game from a major company with millions spent on development. Something is wrong there. Also realize that as you pointed out the only decent game modes of OW were all pre-existing concepts. The only unique mode is the one people "unanimously hate" - something is very wrong there. When the most experienced TF2 pro on the planet calls your game modes trash and you point out that it's a different game and the modes are all the same, you actually just proved his point. If they wanted to make a decent competitive game with all the same modes as TF2, they should probably listen closely to b4nny, if they want to make something else that's fine and they should ignore b4nny, but they obviously failed to decide either way and just lean to the green instead.
@@sliceronsteam #1 Community maps *officially added* by Valve. They used to have more quality control, but that's in the gutter. I'm not talking about a meme map like Desert Bus either. #2 Being old isn't an excuse for a map being bad. If Dustbowl was released today, people would be furious. #3 These maps are beloved because 1) Nostalgia blindness and 2) People have played on them so much they ignore the flaws. The fact that pros play on a separate version of maps (many of them community-made) shows that maps in TF2 aren't the greatest. #4 A lot of TF2 gamemodes have existed before TF2. Quake had TDM (which Control Points borrows heavily from) and CTF but nobody in their right mind would say TF2 and Quake are the same game. Plus, it's ironic to call out OW's gamemodes when pro TF2 players only ever play 5 CP and KOTH. #5 I think listening to pro players about game design isn't a great idea. That's exactly what caused OW to go into a spiral of shit. Pros play in their own little bubble with things that they take for granted. Video games aren't a hobby they do after work, it *is* their work. Expecting the game to get better when you balance it for a handful of people is ridiculous. Expecting everyone to play at or near the level of a handful of people is ridiculous. As a personal opinion, I think optimization is the death of fun. When you "optimize" TF2, you get sixes. And people have been complaining for YEARS that sixes is stale, predictable, and boring. How many fun and unique weapons are blacklisted because they're deemed "too op" Playing a game well and designing a game well are two different things. I'm not saying b4nny isn't a good player, but being a good player doesn't mean you know what's best to make a fun game. It's like saying a professional binge eater would make a good chef or a porn photographer would be great at sex. I'd continue, but I know how arguing on the internet works. Everyone yells at one another that they're wrong and nothing gets done. It just aggravates me the people who criticize OW the harshest are people who have barely played the game and just devolve into "OW bad TF2 good give me upvotes pls"
I've never been good at either game, but I've played both OW1 and TF2 extensively. I had a great time with Overwatch. I particularly stomped at Lucioball in Summer Games, but I was kind of over OW shortly after Sigma came out. I remember being excited for the announcement of OW2, only for that excitement to naturally wane as time progressed. I'd already gone back to TF2 and haven't touched Overwatch since probably 2019. As easy as it is to compare OW and TF2, both games look and feel absolutely different; Aesthetically, mechanically, fundamentally different. I share the opinion of many when I say OW was definitely something fresh, but after a couple of years it lost its luster and gameplay overall became stiffer and stiffer. It didn't have the staying power that TF2 continues to have despite its flaws.
He shoots the ammobox towards himself to grab it... that's the TF2 equivalent to taking a long drag off of a cigar and dousing it in a smoky ashtray.
truly
I literally never thought about using It as conveniently as he has that's for sure, damn I need to watch more of these i guess
baby IQ if you havent done this for years tbh
well no, because shooting the rocket takes 1 rocket but the ammobox gives him 10
...What? That has nothing to do with that lol
That vaccinator and wrangler comparison was really spot on honestly
I love how b4nny tried his hardest to describe overwatch's gameplay euphemistically but gave up in the middle of the sentence and just called it cringe. lmao.
@@SwedishBroManDude at least we are not complaining about valve not updating the game 💀
@@SwedishBroManDude?
@@SwedishBroManDude As somone with over 2k h in tf2 i certainly say that Overwatch 2 is currently allot more fun than tf2. Been loving playing Doomfist and wish other games would have also such movement.
@@SwedishBroManDude you say that as if half tf2 players arent weebs (the rest are racist, trans or furries (or all of them together))
@@SwedishBroManDude overwatch is written like a marvel movie and thats why i think a lot of people find it cringe
The lack of individual impact, makes the players more toxic to eachother because of mains and also the coordination, but in TF2 you could be any class and still wipe out a team If skilled enough, these situations can save matches.
tf2 has the most toxic and sick community in fps ow are just pron adicts
I mean that's the same shit in overwatch, you can wipe a whole team easily if you're good enough, but obviously that isn't happening with a competent matchmaking system putting you with the same skill players. Tf2 just has more pugs going for you to shit on bad players.
@@lukasg4807i agree with the pug part but there’s still plenty of times in high div matches where a player just pops off for a moment and wipes their team btw oh yeah yeah
The virgin Lshift teamwipe vs the chad crocket med drop
@krocz6739 oh yeah yeah that happens in overwatch too, just not every fight unless you're smurfing. Nano blade goes brrr
"Overwatch is more like...MOBA-Style-Strategy-Cringe Based"
-b4nny
so true b4nny
I love the way he says it like it’s a technical term 😂
@@george-t7y5r yeah.
But its not like he is that wrong either
Overwatch is an Hero shooter
TF 2 has classes, some people just think those 2 are the same, they are not.
@@gerfandthey are definitely the same chill dog
@@huskpl3yz358 lol why are you mad?
tf2 pros: you can name yourself "Ass blaster"
tf2 cons: you can name yourself "Ass blaster"
Don't forget about infamous duo "SEX_YES" and "SEX_NO"
@@helicoidsniffer1303 all fun and games till there's a duel between sexoffender and sexdefender
how is it a con
@@Bossatron9000 All good until Moe lester, and molester throw hands.
@@hxyri Cause you can get your ass blasted, too.
Imo, the biggest thing TF2 has over Overwatch is freedom
You may argue balancing, characters, etc
But part of what led to OW2's downfall is exactly what's kept TF2 alive for so many years, player freedom
In Tf2, the playerbase and community are given the leeway to basically whatever they want, spending hours on games, community servers, workshops, and letting players just dick around
Overwatch had the seeds for that, but OW2 ultimately removing content and funneling players into the mindset of having to win in order to do anything. Not to mention that OW2 ended up removing incentive to even focus on winning by removing the progression system, and locking a majority of any new content behind egregious prices
TF2 is chill, no ranked, no chasing fir numbers. A good player don't need number to show how good he is. He will just destroy you then conga with the bois
What they did to the sandman was foul tho
Im sorry but this just isnt true. I have over 600 hours in OW and about a third of that is in custom games. I dont really know where you got this idea of a lack of player freedom but the custom games tools in OW are pretty robust and players can make pretty cool things. They also have a whole arcade section dedicated to fun game modes.
@@Xeleon Lack of player freedom is far reaching concept. This is a legit question that I honestly don't know the answer to... I fully enjoyed TF2 and only traded cheap cosmetics for years. I've actually gotten 2 free cosmetics from random drops. Now I have a few higher priced items. But I can also trade them back for a fair market value at any time. Can you do that in OW? in P2P trades? in 3rd party marketplaces?
@@user-vd3pw6yf7b When official competitive first launched, what I did to enemy medics with the sandman/cleaver combo was foul, lol.
When people design their game for 6 people to come together as a team, they really design a game where 6 people control one character.
Very observant. Well noted.
So fkin true
stealing this analogy
Really don't get how this is profound or coherent, 'arcadey MP shooters are centered more around each player's isolated efforts' is true but this is just ???
@@zusty9589 its like having 5 different people debating whether to go left or go right
I found OW the most fun when it first released back in 2016 because it had little to no consideration for the comp side lol. Used to have games where there would be 6 torbs on a single team vs 6 pre nerf roadhogs. both the devs and the comp scene have absolutely killed the game, which is sad to see.
I literally quit the game when Roadhog was nerfed, there was nothing else fun to do in that game. Terrible game design on a fundamental level when nerfing damage numbers completely alters the fun.
@@kawakubo8660 When the nerf was?
tf2 competitive is literally demoman, 2 soldiers, 2 scouts and a medic. That is all you will see in 99% of 6s.
@@carterdelaney4648 thats why the game isn't really balanced around comp, it's not meant to be a competitive game.
@@kawakubo8660 i'm fairly certain the nerf he's talking about is the hook around the corners bullshit
I think what sucks about overwatch is how it revolves around abilities and not game mechanics, in tf2 you need to learn rocket jumping for example, and the overwatch equivalent would be a mobility ability that you just activate when the cooldown is done.
the mobility ability also just temporarily puts you in a good position, while tf2 actually has momentum and a functional physics engine lol
Tf2’s abilities are much harder to learn initially but give an incredible amount of control to the player once you’re competent.
Overwatch requires basically no learning curve. But this comes at the cost of being limited to what the designers intended.
There’s only 4 characters that looked fun to me in overwatch: Zenyatta, Lucio (movement), Wrecking ball hamster (movement), and Doomfist (movement).
You see this difference between control and design in other places as well.
Many abilities and especially ultimated in overwatch take away your control (stun, black holes, sleep, etc). While TF2 has at best some minor slowing mechanics on some weapons (the natasha and supposedly the sandman).
From what I hear this has been reduced in OW2. But i’m not diving into that monetised hellhole anytime soon.
@@tholepintfw overwatch has no knockback so no damage surfing
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 it has slight knockback but all damage you take in that game basically airstalls you. the weird thing is there seems to be momentum for a slight moment when you first use Pharrahs compression blast, but then it just stalls you and you can't go any further.
@@daanstrik4293 I agree with you a lot with Lucio. He was my main for the (relatively short) time I had playing Overwatch. His wall ride mechanic seems relatively simple on paper, but the fact that he can gain really good amounts of speed if you keep latching and unlatching on walls opened up a lot of ways of how I thought about the maps. The feeling of pulling off a Lucio rollout for the first time in Illios and reaching the point first than the enemy Lucio, booping him off the map because of it, was one of the most adrenaline inducing moments I had playing the game.
You are on point when you mention that it's the sense of control that empowers the player. It makes it feel like your actions and consequences are based on your own ability to use the hero instead of it being a hard limit designed by the devs.
Something else to say about Overwatch is how hard it is to make out information on the screen, with the graphics being designed with high saturation and brightness.
Maybe that is just me though, I just find that TF2's less flashy art style to be more coherent and visually appealing.
**cough** valorant **cough**
No I think you hit it on the nail, it's exactly that
fr. playing overwatch is just an oversaturated version of what you see as a kid when you're playing with some superhero toys
i dont have that problem
Tf2s artstyle has long been ruined by hats, unusuals and all that stuff
1:31 it's this shit that gets me he shoots the ammo box at the ground which sends it flying in his direction
Everyone does that
I did not know u could do that lol
@@long_chin_man And if it was OW, the devs would remove that mechanic after it was discovered.
@@long_chin_man Ya I think it's always been in the game. Back before people dropped ammo boxes they dropped their weapons and you could shoot those towards you as well.
It's quite common
I think another TH-camr named Shammy said it best -- The thing that kills Overwatch beyond the greedy corporate shit is the fact that Blizzard tries so hard to dictate the meta. There's no room for players to evolve in how they play the game. Every character is stuck in a rock-paper-scissors style of balancing, every cool trick players discover is immediately patched out, and every ability works exactly the same way every time you use it. It leaves players in a quagmire of "play one match, played them all" that stops being fun for people who play TF2, which is more than happy to let you run wild with all of the tools it provides.
Gaming died when the "cool trick" became always removed instead of added to every character and preferably multiple times then balanced.
Whiny babies on forums mad they died too fast to realize it lets them kill fast as well.
I blame the decline of mankind's warrior instinct.
@@Seedr0 I wouldn't say that, Overwatch sometimes takes those cool tricks and makes them official - by which I mean a watered-down version that, once again, always works the exact same way every time you use it.
"switch at any time" also means that there isn't really any sort of inherent value or comp a team has m. just pingpong counterpicks back and forth. any time anyone complained about a character that character got nerfed into the ground. roadhog was literally always a bad hero, he fed the enemy ult charge, originally had to stand still to heal, had 4 shots in his clip. his entire game plan revolved around punishing predictable players who would hang around corners. hard countered by every other tank at the time because of barriers. but bad players complain about hook catching them around corners, so hook gets nerfed. then they complain about getting oneshot so his damage gets nerfed too. why the fuck would you ever play this character anymore? the next time he was ever relevant was when kiriko came out and literally helped him ignore his weaknesses
@@ApexGale Remember when they promised no nerfs? I remember. Such a wasted game.
@@ApexGale I mean one of the top 10 tanks every season since the start of Overwatch 2 is a hog one trick, so it sounds like a skill issue on your part.
Most of these people comparing the two probably arent really familiar with the history of arena shooters and dont really see all the heritage TF2 carries on
I feel like a lot of the comparisons between the two games were made at a very surface level. ‘Look, TF2’s Engineer and Overwatch’s Torb both build an automatic turret! Look, Medic and Mercy both heal with healing beams! Look, both games have a mode where you push a cart!’, but like, two things can have one or two similar concepts, but the rest is so unfathomably different that they’re not comparable.
Even those comparisons, tf2 is better in them.
@@gekohno What exactly are the things that are better in tf 2 than in ow?
@@bazathothIs this a rhetorical question?
No, like legitimately, what is betrer in the things that sre the same?@@shafikkrisoondatt4002
One thing that may be overlooked by many people is TF2 visuals vs OW visuals.
One thing I adore about TF2 is its focus and respect on visual clarity. If you take a screenshot of regular OW gameplay, it is a complete eyesore. You can barely see what’s going on, which is terrible for an FPS game. In TF2, the devs really went out of their way to make sure you instantly knew what was in front of you at all times. To the point of making maps in Black and White first to make sure the TF2 Mercs has distinct saturation from the map itself.
And yet people try to put the most hideous and art-style breaking cosmetics in the workshop, many times succeeding on adding them to the game.
@@anon-y8w Valve's only fault right now is not actually having someone who cares about the game's artstyle moderate the cosmetic additions, thus the community tries adding lazy or artstyle-breaking cosmetics to the game for easy cash, if there was a semblance of moderation on what gets added to the game, the bar would still be high and cosmetics would at least be good.
Yeah I think this just comes from a lack of experience and respect for the game. The visuals in Overwatch can't be beat, at least not by TF2, and the game really isn't an eyesore when you know what you are doing.
you can always just have a config that removes all cosmetics from rendering. another pro for tf2. it's moddable clientside, so you can install new animations, audio, hud, etc.@@M0D776
who cares though @@M0D776
"cringe-based"
Based
We are finally announced our new cringe based shooter, overwatch 2
@dyslexicbatnam1350pretty much this. blizzard has the same copy+paste formula for every game they release. Thats why they thought they could get away with OW2
@dyslexicbatnam1350 yeah i miss when all the characters in my games were just white guys
@dyslexicbatnam1350Diversity is seriously the least offensive thing about the garbage fire that is Overwatch. Where does your head have to be at to pick out “the diversity” as the main issue of that game?
The thing is...TF2 isn't a hero shooter, it doesn't matter how much tf2 players repeat it
It's a semantic argument, people are gonna call it what they want to call it but at it's core yes, TF2 is an arena shooter with classes.
Overwatch was one of if not the the first hero shooters and it was definitely one of the first to kill off arena shooter features in order to ape ideas from MOBAs like ability cooldowns.
About the map design:
TF2: I found an alter path, it must be:
1. Shortcut
2. A long way to battlefield/enemyspawn, but you can use scout/soldier rocket jump/demo stick jump/etc to get a risky advantage
3. A side way to battlefield and you can attack enemy not in front but in their side
4. Mass ammo pack/Medical kit.
5. A shallow end. Clearly not a real way but a great position for defending.
6. Just another normal way to battlefield
(Dev offers a lot advantage if you want to play aggressive/passive. If anything goes wrong, minimum loss)
OW:
1. Deep Dead End.
2. No Medical kit.
3. Terrible position for ambushing/defending.
4. Have to turn back and Make massive time loss.
(Dev makes you have to remember their static design so you need to know most of them are shit. If anything goes wrong, mass loss)
I think for overwatch, number 3 is the only accurate one, but then again, that's EVERY alternative path, making maps choke hell. Very few maps have alternative pathing that is actually beneficial and helps the flow of gameplay. And by that I mean literally 2 maps, king's row and lijiang tower.
Overwatch maps are designed around chokepoints so ur points are not accurate
Man the time waste is so true. There's way less mobility in Overwatch, very character based.
In TF2 you'd think "Oh, scout must be the mobility class"
But no... almost every class has some sort of mobility and those who don't have a good characteristic for surprise playstyles or avoiding/tanking damage.
Heavy has none, but he's an absolute killer at jumping around corners. Sniper is... sniper.
And well... actually everyone else has mobility. Scout is obvious, Soldier has rockets, Pyro has detonator or deflecting rockets, Demo has stickies and shields, Engineer has the wrangler, Medic is faster than average and has the quick-fix and Spy has also above average speed and weapons that increase it.
*(coughs)*
Einchenwalde and Dorado
*(coughs)*
@@diydylana3151 There's no real benefit to flanking in Overwatch. In 99% of scenarios you are much better off plinking away at the enemy alongside your team until you get ults, not flanking around to a team that's so far up each other's ass that you'll get killed in a nanosecond anyways.
movement also just never felt good in owerwatch, lucio was the only character with interesting movement, everyone else felt so static
i think that's also because of the linearity of the maps. most maps are highly decorated but at their core they're litterally just a street.
@@asittingduck4786 i think the main thing that ruins overwatch movement for me is the amount of air control you have, there isnt really any point in "learning" movement in overwatch the same way there is in source games like tf2, cs, or apex because of how much room for error there is
@@asittingduck4786Overwatch would be probably be 5X more fun if it had better map design
HELLOOO?? DOOM?? BALL??? so many trash takes here exactly what i expected from braindead valve glazers. you have 1 hour on the game of course your trash and dont know how any of the characters work
@@toastfyFINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT the reason people still play Overwatch is because it has the most unique characters, ever. Doom and Ball are the paragons of that sentiment. You can play a sniper in any game, you can use a shotgun in any game, but if you want to be a giant chaotic mech or a huge fist man that can fly around the map, Overwatch is the ONLY game you can do that in
The small team size of 5s is so punishing for casual matches. If one or two of your teammates are dogshit or off doing their own thing, the match is already over.
It's both good and bad imo. It's good in the way that it's easier to transition from casual to comp. But it's bad because it is like you point out less fun and bad for casual players. Personally I prefer having the 2 different like tf2. It's a shame valve never gave tf2 the comp leg up it needed when comp MM came out and they just allowed everything. 6v6 on PL maps is as bad as a "casual" OW match.
But how is the competitive aspect of TF2? I feel like there's only casual, so what's the point in playing? I find it difficult to engage with multiplayer stuff if there isn't a competitive aspect, unless it's an MMO
@@Elhombre95382 There is a really good competitive aspect it's just not run by valve. It's run by communities. Which has been the case since tf2 came out. To my knowledge Valve has never actively supported TF2's comp side. Part of that is the age of the game and part of that is just TF2 being treated like the red headed step child of Valve.
The built in Comp mode is garbage because valve decided to use their own idea of comp and try to make the meta what they wanted which doesn't work. Instead of just adopting the comp mode that already existed run by community and changing some minor things to make it more accessible.
1:30 wow ive played tf2 for 6 years and main soldier. I never thought of knocking a ammo box towards me. I love this game
its because you're bad.
@@supertrollfaxnoprinter3329 sorry he didnt know a super lowkey thing that was probably found out on accident, stop being such a loser and insulting people cause they dont know or dont care to know about some miniscule thing
If your team has a decent engi, knock ammo boxes towards him too :D.
@@sliceronsteamThe more you know
Overwatch is closer to League of Legends than it is to TF2. What makes TF2 different is that it *does* happen that, for example, a Scout pops off and downs the entire enemy team by himself. Such plays are far more rare in Overwatch because even when they happen, they *require* the team to be seriously on point for such plays. Without the tank shielding for example, whichever damage dealer team wipes would've died in an instant. It could be seen as a TF2 equivalent of if team wipes by a single player only happened if the player in question got uber.
Another problem is the Ultimate dynamic. TF2 has one ultimate only - Uber. This means everyone can get good at "tracking uber" and sensing when one might happen, but in OW it's just too much spam. Everyone can die because an unexpected uber popped out, and that significantly slows down gameplay and results in a lot of "ult fights" being deciders. This means individual skill matters less and the availability of the ultimates/how well they combine matters more, which is far more about the characters in question than the actual players.
Again by contrast, yes uber is important for offensive pushes in TF2, but in general the way it tends to unfold is that uber is used to do things like eliminate engineer sentries, reach advantageous positions on the map, or kill key damage dealers IF the opponent doesn't counter-uber, which is often the case. Basically, it's the initiator and a disadvantage to deal with should one team lack it, but after that it's largely about the skill of the players, whilst in OW the ults *themselves* are what end the fight.
*TL;DR* Overwatch is far more "hard-coded." The most simplistic way to acknowledge this is that OW has hard-counters, but in TF2, counters are usually very soft. TF2 lets the players "fill in the blanks" with their individual skill to a far greater degree, whereas the skills and cooldown mechanics of OW make matchups much more predictable. Lack of mobility does this too: Tracer's base run speed is actual comparable to *Pyro.* One of the fastest OW characters is only about as fast as the average TF2 character. This, again, shows how much more hindered OW players are by the limitations of their class than the TF2 ones are.
good analysis
Scout, double jump, 125 (low) health, small hitbox.
Heavy, slow, 300 hp. medium hitbox.
Genji, double jump, 200 (now 250)(low) health, small hitbox.
Reinhardt, same speed as everyone, 400 hp and 300 armored hp, a giant shield with 1400 hp.
and also reduced headshot damage
Something else as well on the Uber/Ultimate comparison, you can RESET uber charge by killing the medic. Plus the medic MUST be doing something to gain Uber, it's never passive. Plus he has specific strategies that maximize Uber build, as well as many many times when he should give up on those max build rate strategies to save himself or help the team better. Many choices in how you build Uber, lots of tension in surviving long enough to use it well, and many chances for a competent enemy to stop you.
In Overwatch, atop all the things you mentioned, you just passively gain Ultimate and it carries over between lives. There's no way to stop ultimates other than stuff them when they arrive, usually with your own ultimates (which is more just match-up dependent character choice bs, in a game where they removed a good chunk of your freedom to swap and adapt).
Even if we're talking about minimizing ultimate build up, usually you gain ult faster via dealing damage, not even kills. So uh, to stop their build up, just don't get hit? In the game where movement is simplified, and "Guy who gets hit a lot" is a dedicated role?
You could say shields I suppose but uh does anyone enjoy dealing with those? (tangent rant)
Reinhardt in the launch-era ecosystem of overwatch was somewhat interesting because of how much decision making he does controlling his shield, and how he must maintain it actively, giving up his ability do anything else like reposition or deal damage (although he still has a lot of problems). But most other shield users have just varying levels of fire and forget damage sponge abilities with rapid start-up times and relatively lenient risks such as cooldowns. The fact that so many characters even need to be shielded, and are NOT expected to have a high skill ceiling for avoiding damage on their own, is a crying shame.
People forget Team Fortress originated as a Quake mod
Then Valve flips the entire thing TWICE, (Team Fortress Classic) (Team Fortress 2 Brotherhood of Arms, cancelled.) and makes a game entirely different. Thats the fun with Valve
@@ChesterManfred I mean source is one of these engines which has it's roots from quake. Hence why there is so many mechanics in the game
i think that the sheer volume of characters to choose from makes the balancing of the game kinda dogshit, since having so many heroes makes it so that the devs have to juggle so many variables and it ends up resulting in certain comps/heroes being way out of the league of others.
the game's focus on counterplay also makes playing tank in role queue a chore, because a lot of matches you'll have to swap pretty often to match the enemy team's tank e.g. playing zarya into dva or ram into rein.
the support role is completely fucked because of how op it is, with almost every member of the support role being able to defend themselves against any dps or tank. while this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it means that supports like kiriko or ana can quite literally solo almost any hero because of their kit, making tank and dps frustrating to play.
the tank role no longer has any freedom because of there only being 1 tank now. this means that the tank is almost required to constantly play frontline, as the team will have no formation if they are not there, meaning more independent tanks like hog are much more difficult to use now because the tank has to be protecting the team at all times, and hog is not built to do that, instead moving around the objective and getting valuable picks with his hook and applying pressure, like in ow1. his entire kit is focused on that really, as his breather lets him do this for prolonged periods and his whole hog lets him solo one or two people in a cramped environment. 1 tank also means that characters like doom or ball are hard to learn, as you have to balance what you focus your attention on. again, while this isnt really a bad thing, it results in a lot of people playing the wrong tanks into the wrong comps, or playing doom or ball and then subsequently throwing because they couldn't provide a stable frontline.
the dependance on your teammates in ow2 makes the game much more frustrating, as you could be playing your nuts off and still end up losing because of a bad teammate or comp
its hilarious how OW2 has like 40 different heros to play from with hundreds of different abilities and ultimates, and yet has nowhere even near as much variety in gameplay than TF2 has with just 9 classes
I wouldn't even say it just makes the balancing bad. The problem with games that have so many characters that try to keep them "balanced" in a never ending cycle is that inevitably, some stuff that absolutely no one likes to play against is gonna be good or viable, and then you're going to have to deal with it no matter what. Its not really a problem in tf2s comp scene because they have custom rulesets and formats, where weapons or strategies that people don't enjoy playing against aren't allowed. Overwatch has some pretty well designed heroes like tracer, zen, mcree and luico. But for every well designed hero there is some shit like moira, brig, mei, doomfist, hamster ect that absolutely no one enjoys playing against and you will just inevitably have to deal with them being meta at some point because of the nature of the games balance. Tf2 on the other hand just accepts that some things are bad and good and doesn't really try to fix it too hard. Everyone knows medic is op and everyone is fine because people like medic and people have gotten used to a game where medic is essential.
@@vin8754am I tripping or is the game not just shoot gun and jump with explosives with the exception of pyro engineer and spy? Preferring TF2 is fine but acting like it has more variety is just nonsense.
@@lukasg4807I think he's talking about the weapon varity.
But yeah a lot of tf2 weapons are small stat changers and nothing that shakes up the fundamental class.
Neither are lacking in varity from what I've played
@@lukasg4807 youre not. tf2 puts small twists on 9 classes through loadouts while most of the many ow heroes are immensely different from each other, but this isnt even an inherently bad thing for tf2. These people just love to shit on ow for internet points, i swear he came up with that on the very spot and/or has never played ow.
I had a pretty good time with Overwatch years ago, and only accomplished it by ignoring quick play and competitive and maining the arcade section only.
ster had faith that these issues would be fixed but he didn’t realize that blizzard was the worst game company to actually develop a video game for any reason other than cheap profit incentive
i think blizzard still had an ok reputation at the time overwatch was announced, not anymore though lol
TF2 wanst in a good spot for years, streamers aways getting ddos attacks, bots, 0 updates. Theres only so much you can do as content creator.
@@gisopolis77 World of Warcraft players knew...
Basicaly, TF2 is based on Quake.
And OW/2, is based on LOL.
yeah LOL not just for league of legends but also for Laugh Out Loud for how much of a joke it is
I don't think they were trying to make a game based in league but it just ended up like that
@@dayfelin3244 Pun-intended.
@@eyeden819 maybe not league specifically, maybe so. But the genre, MOBA, is what they were trying to infuse into an fps.
Yep, someone gets it
It's not just that you're going against the vaccinator/wrangler full-time, it's that every ability is also on a timer -- so it's like going against the vaccinator/wrangler with the gas passer!
I thought Overwatch was porn
virgin
I play both games and B4nny is definitely right on a lot of things. Individual impact and the rock-paper-scissors dynamic forcing you to play what you have to rather than what you want can make Overwatch pretty unfun. Under performing means toxicity and in every other match there is always somebody in the lobby getting mad at somebody. Also the map designs aren’t that strong because unlike TF2, Overwatch has a massive roster that a map has to cater to, which is just pretty much impossible compared to the 9 classes of TF2.
It's so similar to what I would say if somebody asks me why I don't like Valorant. I can pretty much apply all the points he made to CS vs. Valorant
I don’t like xqc but it’s good to hear him respect Bannys dedication to tf2
I dont like xqc either
Speaks volumes about how low he has the bar. Just not talking trash about someone is a step up for him lmao
I dont like xqc either but... nah hes trash
It’s the only thing he knows how to play, sadly it’s a dead game
@@PotentialGrim it’s not a dead game 😂
@@PotentialGrim Dead game is when theres no players. TF2 has loyal fanbase and this game been around almost 20 years LOL.. not a lot games can live as long without dying like that.
"moba style strategy cringe based" well put
I hate it because despite being a team based game, way more than tf2. Hardly anyone actually goes in voice chat and everyone becomes really defensive when you ask them to switch character to counter someone else, even though that is what overwatch is and how it is supposed to be played. While in Tf2 there are always people in voice chat and while there is a bunch of teamwork involved you can play and have fun just being a solo player. Except in overwatch, if you aren’t playing as a team you are at a sever disadvantage and having one player doing badly can really affect your whole team’s performance.
ye thats one thing i hate just having one person playing worse puts u at a crazy disadvantage even more than a 4v5 in a game like csgo its kinda crazy
Him talking about the differences between TF2 and Overwatch while fucking rocket jumping across the screen is subtly hilarious. That's the different right there. Overwatch is a neutered game with a safety net. Characters, and whole roles have to be coddled. They have to continuously place bandaid solutions over other bandaid solutions by restricting player freedom and freedom in the experience.
It started at the very beginning with the addition of hero limits. Then it carried on to role limit, then role lock, then going from 6v6 to 5v5. Every step in Overwatch's overall game design has been restrictive, despite the fact that the game was ORIGINALLY DESIGNED for swapping. It doesn't matter now though. No one on the team shares that philosophy anymore because everyone pretty much left. Now the people leftover have to pick up the scraps of what they were handed, with a game that was meant to be an MMO at some point down the line while higher ups instead funneled money and forced towards a competitive scene.
Fumbled, mistreated, neglected, and betrayed. That's the Legacy of Overwatch.
After years of playing soldier in TF2, I remember trying overwatch w/ friends and playing the Egyptian rocketeer woman and I wanted to use my ultimate and I audibly said into the group vc "wait I just hit q??" 😂 TF2 FOREVER 🦅🇺🇲
That's what TF2 did to og TFC and QWF movement. TF2 completely dumbed down and neutered any sort of skilled movement and most skill mechanics in order to make it easier for players. TF2 movement is a joke, its like controlling a two tonne slab of meat compared to Team Fortress Classic and Quake World Fortress. It's a disgrace of a sequel and not even a TF game at its core.
@@bojcioBait used to be believable.
@@LordVader1094 But its true lol. TFC is a much harder game, to the point where TFC oldheads hate TF2. In my opinnion TF2 is better since you dont have to spend 4 weeks grinding it just to be ok at it, however people are entitled to their opinnions no?
@@SS-kr5us so corny lmfao
playing wrecking ball on Overwatch competitive is probably most definitely the most you can test your patience in a video game
Not even the biggest OW fan will defend the gameplay design of Ball
A huge issue was the wide disparity between hero skill expression. Characters like Winston were reduced almost entirely down to "game-sense-reliant" which is another way of saying "crutch." Ultimates were especially bad for the game, because they made the parts of hero kits that took the least skill be the most game changing, so a lot of interesting high complexity plays were diminished and overshadowed by the Q button. Look up Overwatch esports highlights, it's almost all Q buttons unless it's a Widowmaker POV.
I really liked Overwatch at launch, and it has gotten a bit worse. But honestly, I think I was a bit blinded by the hype when Overwatch was new. I now understand Overwatch at a fundamental level always had weaker design and less potential than TF2. There's a lot of other little things that neither me or b4nny mentioned that make TF2 the better game.
To be fair TF2 has a lot of terrible map design too, but the difference is in TF2 you can queue for the maps you like. If TF2 forced you to queue for a random official map, you would not be so enthused with TF2's map design.
no way the big ability that you take a while to build up has a lot of impact wtf??????
@@moothu_ lmao if the ultimate charge bar was wiped the moment you died then maybe they'd be somewhat interesting but being rewarded for just breathing is stupid
@@cfaibah did you know not all ults are free wins and have counterplay to them...........
@@moothu_ i am well aware, I played plenty of overwatch, but the ult mechanic is shoehorned in so that mediocre players can get the dopamine rush of scoring the play of the game by killing like 3 players
@@cfaibah and is that a bad thing?? in a shooter game people like to kill the enemy
I remember when Overwatch came out and most of my friends at the time (not my friends anymore) switched from TF2 to Overwatch.
And, y’know, I bought the game to play it with them and kind of realized that everything about it just didn’t feel right.
For one, I didn’t enjoy all the characters AT ALL. Everyone felt so goddamn one dimensional that it made getting to know them quite boring, especially their personalities. We got British Unstable Time Travelling Girl, Tight suited Korean Woman in a mech, and Healer who wants to help everyone and be nice to everyone. These characters feel boring, it’s literally just,”Hey guys! I’m supposed to be based on a well known stereotype! Better act like a stereotypical person to fit my character role!”
In TF2, there is so much personality within the 9 classes of the game. The youngest class with the biggest ego calling others chucklenuts, A literal wannabe WWII soldier with an insane thought process, and a doctor who lost their medical license over extracting somebody’s skeleton. There’s just so much to unpack from all classes, it really makes them stand out.
Another thing that I don’t like is how plain and unnatural Overwatch’s animations are. I know we all experience recoil when we shoot something, that’s normal, but it doesn’t feel THAT elastic to recover from. Seeing your gun just bounce up and down so unrealistically just makes me feel motion sick. Torbjorn’s hammer hitting nothing in the air, McCree’s Horrendous Reload Animation, there’s just so much examples to go off by.
Of course, I would get into how the competitive scene for OW completely ruined the game, but I’m pretty sure other people can speak or already have spoken for me about that one.
tl;dr Quality and Character wise, Overwatch sucks and TF2 rules
The only thing I'm going to contradict you about is Cassdy's revolver and Spy's, Spy has by far the worst of both, you don't feel the power of a revolver at all, the reloading animation is much worse and on top of that it's bugged, it seems that a toy shoots and the ambassador sucks, the animations look like the huge cannon is a joke
i don’t want to be rude, but this whole thing reads a little like “tf2 better because i like tf2 and i don’t like ow”
just to be clear, there’s nothing wrong with that opinion, but the way it’s written makes it sound like it’s objective. for example, if i really wanted to, i could also reduce tf2’s classes into a short phrase at best. for example, medic is just some crazy doctor. sniper is just some guy from australia. that’s not really fair to any of the characters though, in my opinion, because the way they flesh them out (in both games imo) is what makes them interesting.
can’t say much about the animations, i’ve personally never had a problem with either games, bur again, that’s just me.
You can play as a literal hamster in Overwatch. Your argument is trash
@@defaultdan7923yeah tbh most TF2 characters have a lot of similarities with each other. Loudness, cockiness bordering on delusion, and general sadism, the kind of stuff that I genuinely despise from the OW2 cast is abundant in the TF2 cast. Obviously the mercs all have their individual charm and interesting backgrounds you have to go relatively out of your way to find out about (because Valve doesn’t care about lore anymore), but just based off of a single impression you probably wouldn’t find them very captivating. Ig TF2 is less “clickbaity” than OW because the mercs do all have very interesting backgrounds, while some OW characters really are just their one catchphrase, but there’s still plenty of depth to be found in the OW universe. I almost find TF2 limited in its setting, even if the character work is good, but that’s a topic for another day.
a little late to the party, but if you pay attention you'll notice that whenever tf2 players complain about the game, what they're actually complaining about is the lack of updates or the cheating problems. they never complain about the mechanics themselves. that's not really the case when it comes to Ow complaints, which, from what I gathered, apart from the overall greedy monetization and the cancelled PVE mode, usually includes both the garbage balancing and compromised visibility. those that played both games will also often complain about the skill system and ultimates and movement and what not
but there is complaints about tf2 mechanics, unless i'm misunderstanding this:
people complain about snipers and pyros for example, and there's probably complaints about many weapons being unbalanced, like the scorch shot
@@skye0_ these are not nearly as ubiquitous as the thousands of videos by overwatch pros defecating on the game
@@cfaibah yeah okay fair, i mostly know of FishOnAStick doing weapon/class discussion. Mostly it's just the playerbase complaining in the game and on steam
Don't forget that OW went to all the trouble of making a setting with unique, visually distinct characters, with each either being a good guy or bad guy, and then decided not to split them into seperate teams ingame, so they needed to add colored outlines to the characters do players could tell who wad on their team and who wasn't. Bad design.
The other thing is to make 9 characters and color them blue and red. That's such a good design.
??? this might be the dumbest thing I've read in this comment section. Did you want a roleplay style game where you play as overwatch vs talon or what??
Smartest TF2 player
@@de_greeHonestly that would have been more intruiging and likely better than what Overwatch actually is
For me, the biggest difference by far is the lack of skill based movement in overwatch
play lucio, doomfist or ball and look up some movement techs
doom and ball have like 100s of techs for how their skills interact with momentum and the map geometry
@@lilwintery6434 So does tf2, but the way the movement is used is different. TF2 basically relies on movement: faster and more maneuverable you are, the harder for you to die.
@@lilwintery6434overwatch 2 movement has wayyyyyy less depth, the charge mechanic + airstrafing in tf2 alone has more depth than all the movement in ow2 combined, and I'm someone who played both games.
@@markshmellomd1370 You are wrong on this one. I have played lots of Overwatch some years ago and there was a lot to learn on Lucio's wallride ability plus all the rollouts. There were tons of mechanical techniques to learn
@@Matricias look up some rocket jump surf videos bud. i've played both overwatch and tf2 for atleast 500hrs+ and the complexities that tf2 has for movement dwarf overwatch. especially since the devs keep removing and dumbing down any movement techs that are found. like doomfist who was guted from the OW2 beta
They're fundamentally very different games, the only overlap is that they're team vs team shooters with a select cast of unique characters to choose from. The gamemodes are the same too ig, but the moba elements of cooldowns and ultimates are a massive part of overwatchs identity. The way they design the characters is an entire different philosophy because of this, focusing on counters and a rock paper scissors style of balancing
Bro's saying it in a rlly harsh and bit exaggerated tone; but he's right. And that same shit unfortunately aplies to most modern "competitive" games, we rarely have any real comp integrity nowadays.
That's honestly a pretty valid take.
Like with MOBA games, Overwatch also limits itself to 5 players per team. While in TF2, the number of players on each team doesn't exactly matter as long as it's fairly even.
If you're poorly performing on TF2 and there's a large number of players on the server, no one's, most likely, going to notice from all the chaos that surrounds them. So, it doesn't exactly stress you to get good any faster, you can just improve on your own speed.
In Overwatch, it's always 10 or less players per server. 5 for each team. So there is a much bigger demand of competiive play rather than casual, even on said casual servers and even arcade servers. Not doing too well? That can severly and poorly impact the performance on the rest of the team mainly because of how behind you are compared to the rest. It's not a good look and can often lead to toxic interactions inside the team, to make matters worse.
I love both games despite both of their falls from grace. But, I will admit how high my anxiety can raise a bit when entering any Overwatch lobby.
Plus with the amount of characters Overwatch has, I think that can lead to some certain balance issues even with some modes enforcing you to choose from only one subsection.
"cringe-based" 😂
“What else…” the balancing he forgot the balancing.
He literally mentioned the wrangler and vaccinator. Oh wait, those are broken TF2 weapons. OW2 honestly feels like its balance is quite solid, I can always open up with reaper and do reasonably well even if they’re running double sniper because I feed off of the tank and their back line is vulnerable. I agree that the various OW1 metas have been problematic, but they’ve generally been erased in OW2. I think the rock paper scissors dynamic creates coordinated team scenarios which can be as fun as throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks in TF2. However, with the wrangler equipped, the engineer presses 2 on his keyboard and completely freezes the match for everyone. While the vaccinator is only necessarily strong in 6v6, and cases like these are generally outliers, the lack of dev support makes them just that more apparent. They did eventually nerf the reserve shooter but they didn’t care about poor balancing as much as player outcry.
There’s a reason B4nny didn’t mention TF2 balancing. It’s because the comp scene felt like they had to take it in their own hands.
The get out of jail free cards in overwatch kill me, like no reaper I did not get you down to one health just for you to give yourself 100% invincibility, a massive speed boost, while still being able to be healed to full. And that applies to like half the characters too, where they have some way to just ensure they will 100% survive. Look at Dva, wrecking ball, Moira, sombra, mei, Winston, roadhog. And then you gotta worry about all the fuck you I win team fight buttons where you just sorta have to let them win or you just die when it’s not your fault. On demand invincibility for free or huge AOE one shots that you don’t even have to sim make up half the ults and you don’t even have to avoid dying or anything to get them
They tried to make a PEGI 12 rated game that is based on porn. What were they thinking?
I see the same weirdness in Fortnite.
Trying to make it as childish as possible (low violence, disney / pixar artstyle, characters SMILING constanly, guns looking like toys).
But at the same time promoting constant slaughtering eachother and making sexy skins (you have to pay for) with unnecessarily big butts and tight clothing.
Please just choose one, either violent and horny OR appealing to children xD
TF2 also looks very cartoony but that's where it ends: it has tons of borderline un-political correctness, blood and gore and nothing trying to reel you in by being as sexually appealing as possible.
how tf is it based on porn? the porn came after the game.
and there is a reason r34 exists
@@SleepingRightNow12it's a bird, it's a plane, it's a joke
@@ChesterManfred not a good one thats for sure
@@SleepingRightNow12 You just missed your flight, too bad
trying to understand what ludwig is saying is about as hard as my geometry homework that I've been avoiding for the past 2 weeks.
Yea Kai cenat was really hard to understand
@@Destical my brother in christ, what does Kai Cenat have to do with this?
@@Idk-wg9gl my brother in christ what does ludwig have to do with this
@@Destical holy fucking shit I thought xqc’s name was Ludwig ima kms lmao
In tf2 I'm allowed to have fun and in overwatch people get really mad at me
yeah u can say the same for CSGO vs TF2, in CSGO if u don't play well and do exactly what they want you to do they get mad at you, in TF2 it's more chill, less toxic
@@michalvrabec454 cs functions as a competitive game that an individual can actually carry though, overwatch is ult farm simulator for weebs
You say that , but try playing actual competitive tf2 and try to say that again.
Overwatch casual is pretty chill. comp is where all the sweats are. Thats true for basically every game with a comp mode.
@@PegAsi_ why would I ever play competitive that's not what I play games for
@@wuhoh5277 I'm not saying you should, I'm just saying both games are the same. Comp is sweat, casual is chill.
I think what really appeals to me about tf2 is as a sport it feels more like basketball rather than football where there isn’t much freedom to individually take over.
In TF2 having great player composition is much more valuable than a good team composition based off class
My personal reason why I don't play overwatch but tf2 is because I found overwatch to be overcomplicated in desine and all the amount of things happening on the screen at once just confuse me, like I can't even tell who is on my team and who isint, did I kill that guy ore not. Whit 32 caracters to chose I bet only half has an interesting game desine and personalities and I bet that there are characters that have the same job as the other once but whit diferent weapons and a bit of objective change. Some of the caracters are unintresting and just feal like they are there to fill out the gaps and not add anything to the game. Also the amounts of unfair mechanics i shaw and pepole complain about
Holy shit your comment is half typos.
How tf can you not tell who's on your team? The enemy has a giant red outline around them.
@@lukasg4807 well, whit all the distacting particals in the way.
@@2-AZ1-BE are you intentionally removing 3 letters from every word?
Infact yes, I'm lazy as f
@@2-AZ1-BEskill issue lmao get gud
Average ranked match in OW1 was to hide behind a shield tank and spam the shield tank of the enemy team while looking for an opening. At some point one of the shields broke faster and that made the opposite team rush in with ultimate combo and usually secure the objective.
In TF2 you have constant shifting of forces, TF2 is team based game but in reality it's a deathmatch with team elements. In TF2 if you shoot enemy a few times you get an easy kill, in Overwatch if you manage to get to enemy team's backline your damage will get outhealed and you will also get stunned/CC'd and killed... as an assasin character...
Thats what good about Overwatch. It has strategic depth to how you defend and build your team composition.
You can play Dive, Rush, Poke. And all play COMPLETELY different from each other. You sond like a person who bever played more than 2 hours of Overwatch
As a spy, if the enemy team is all grouped up, and their perception is focused on the front, you could take out the entire enemy team in mere seconds
However, this is easily countered with good communication, to avoid identity theft
i liked OW1 once i discovered Ana, the ability to be a hybrid damage dealer/healer with utility and real crowd control, AND be flashy/clutch at the same time was very refreshing.
despite that, i agree that it feels like playing against wrangler/vaccinator all the time. i don't know that TF2 is "better", but i prefer to play it over OW2. That said, id never touch TF2 comp, whereas i used to enjoy playing ranked in OW1.
The issue I have is that there are so many heroes to pick from. Alot of the time they all do the same thing, with the only differentiating thing being how they do it, while the TF2 cast is very simple with only 9 mercs compared to Overwatch 2's 30 + heroes, and each of them are special in their own way. Scout can do high damage with his scattergun but has low health, Heavy has his minigun and relies more on sustained damage rather than pulse damage, Medic is a healer who isn't absolutely useless when they are confronted (cough) mercy (cough), Spy is ment to be sneaky and can use his disguises to fool the enemy (doesn't work very well though), but still, each character has a drastically differant way to play them compared to the other, unlike overwatch.
I don't actually think they do the same thing really, a lot of the hero's kits are unique from each other.
@@Lunamagic-op8ypdon’t bother with this guy. this comment section is filled with trash players who weren’t bothered to learn ow lmao
@@toastfy I mean I love both games, Ow2 right now i mostly played because it actually gets updates, yeah i don't like blizzard that much but whatever.
I dont know why tf2 players feel the need to look down on overwatch like they've got it better, when valve if im honest treats the game even worse.
@@Lunamagic-op8ypfacts. i rather play a game that gets updates every 2 months than a game where the company doesn’t care and rather let the community makes updates for them
@@toastfy tf2 doesn't get updates outside of new hats and community maps.
Ow2 gets balance, new hero's (which is equivalent of getting new weapons). Is it always good? No, but at least it usually shakes up the game for a while.
Not saying tf2 is bad but you can barely call the updates, updates at this point. This is coming from someone who loved tf2 for years and years and my average game ontop of that is riddled with bots anyway
I played OW when it came out and that's how I felt. The "hard countering" issue was a huge turnoff for me. When you played as certain characters and ran into another particular character, sometimes you'd just shrug and go, "I guess I'll die then."
I also feel as if overwatch lacks the sense of a tight-knit player community that tf2 has to the point where playing tf2 feels like home whereas overwatch feels like you're at some party. All flashy and bright, but no sense of belonging. That's my take on it personally
Damn what an unexpectedly deep and raw analogy.
one of my best memories of tf2 was me and 5-6 other heavies all eating sandviches together it really felt like just hanging out 😂
Opposite for me, TF2 community can get bent
Personally, I just love TF2 more because the 12 to 16 or even 50-sized teams makes the game much more random and fun. If Overwatch implemented a 12v12, I could see myself crawling back to it.
And let’s be honest, Benny’s just dick riding TF2 because he’s seen what happened to other people who switched. Has he seen our competitive community? 6s just bans everything that doesn’t make the game “Hyperquake” and Highlander is hide and seek from the enemy sniper. (I know he’s a competitive player, but he can’t just paint it all sunshine and rainbows for us)
I like both TF2 and Overwatch, I really don't like it when someone talks shit about one or the other. They're different games, just like b4nny said here.. but you can appreciate them on their own, you don't necessarily need to compare them. (also, based on the way he's talking about the game, he's probably only tried it once or twice. I still think he'd be among one of the best in it if he tried seriously though, he's an amazing player obv.)
god b4nny keeps flicking that scoreboard
I can relate after so many hrs on playing TF2. Its a timeless wonder.
Overwatch has always struggled with character balance and map design since the closed beta. I was a participant. A few of the characters were unbalanced from the start and nothing was done to put their variables in a proper well rounded result. Instead of maintaining stable baselines and following fundamental rules of balance tradeoffs, blizzard kept adding more heroes which skewed things even further. Even after adding new characters the rest of the roster would essentially go ignored. Why are there roots, stuns, and hard-negations present? Why do tanks have both higher health pools and faster move speed that healers? A perfect analogy of balance would be the classic rogue vs tank debate paradigm. Scout moves fast, hits hard, but has a smaller health pool. Heavy has more health devastating close-mid range damage, but a massive hitbox, slow move speed, and he's a sitting duck while firing. Heavy being a sitting duck requires medics or coordinated offensive strategies to keep him alive in critical moments. Scout and heavy are the perfect examples of how to build character balance. In overwatch, roadhog has a faster move speed, more DPS, stuns, self healing, and a 2 (3 if using the melee tech) shot wombo combo against lower health classes where literally nothing the low health victim can do as an individual to survive. If heavy had these features could you imagine how ungodly broken he would be? It just never made sense. Another aspect of why OW is bad is that every character is either part of the meta or totally useless. There isn't much else to it. In TF2 every character is meta at all times. From it's inception overwatch never understood the fact that it's a ripoff of an arena shooter without following any of the arena shooter gameplay formulas. It was always a disjointed, unbalanced, nonsensical cash grab. I could pick apart every character in OW's roster, cross compare the strengths and weaknesses with the rest of the roster, and then end up utterly confused with how blizzard thought the hero variables and abilities were acceptable.
real question is why are so many TF2 players so insecure about their game, like Overwatch fans and creators don't ever even talk about TF2 but Overwatch is a regular in conversation in the TF2 community
It’s because during the start beginning of Overwatch, there was a bit of trash talking that triggered the TF2 crowd. As for why Overwatch fans don’t trash talk TF2 is because they are too busy blaming their teammates, game mechanics, or monetization lol.
@@LordDaret i gotta be honest, i think most Overwatch players just don't care about TF2, like they don't shit talk TF2 because they never even think about TF2
I’ve tried to play tf2 multiple times. Its so confusing and hard to approach. I’m willing to bet if I had played it when it was popular I would agree with this guy. But my experience on the game has never been pleasant
Tf2 is so hard to get into and I means really hard but when you start to get used to it , it'll be shit ton of fun
that's fair, I have 4k hours in TF2, and in my experience with the community about 80% of the playerbase couldn't complete even the most basic of rocket jumping maps
and honestly, can't really blame them, the only way to actually learn how to rocket jump properly is if you go out of your way to look up tutorials on the internet
You know, it's way better starting off if you have a friend play with you and show you the ropes. The built in tutorials are kinda ass lol
Doesn't help of course that the matchmaking update and bot problems largely killed off player-run servers which were the beating heart of TF2's community, but it's an inherently chaotic game, especially when you're playing casually solo.
Gotta get together with friends, once you're in good company and start getting that playtime up you can start to see through the chaos.
tf2 is one of the only f2p games that gatekeeps itself, its really hard to get the snowball moving but once you do itll be fun
Overwatch = Makes noobs feel good with push a button get a kill type moves
TF2 = actually skill based.
why is there this no name in the corner I clicked too see b4nny's opinion
Bunny is the goat of TF2 and he's the beating heart of competitive. Somebody to strive towards.
TF2 is a much better game in my opinion even if it's no longer getting updates.
I went from obsessively playing overwatch everyday on release to almost never when season 1 started and ranked was released. I have never seen all the fun out of a game get sucked out so fast. Once they removed the ability to pick multiple of the same hero I gave up on the game and uninstalled. Like... why would you want to be more like league of legends in a shooter??
I think the biggest problem with overwatch is the hero's have zero counterplay. If someone picks a hero that counter's yours, unless there is a massive skill gap, you're just fucked. You HAVE to switch to a different hero because they counter yours. That's not the case in tf2. Pyro counters soldier but theres options soldier can take to beat a pyro. If you're playing a projectile character like hanzo or junkrat and the enemy is running pharah, you're fucked. Gg, switch characters or lose the round.
Nothing beats that lovely arena shooter styled movement. OW felt like it had 3x gravity and you can’t gain actual usable momentum like in TF2 without an ability with a cooldown timer.
I don't see any objective points made in this video aside from him saying these two games are vastly different, everything else seemed really biased. He has every right to not like OW but his reasoning for calling it trash was really one sided.
They are two very different games that appeal to two very different gamers
I really hate that a major community figure like b4nny is supporting the lazy and tired arguments of TF2 fanboys that don't understand overwatch at a basic level. I prefer TF2, but idk how you can in good faith call Overwatch "trash" when it was for a while one of the most popular games in the world. You gotta figure you're missing something at that point, right?
OW is trash.
he absolutely makes good points. Moba's are based on rock paper scissors dynamics. Banny is a pro player, and as he said he doesn't like this, as it limits individual impact.
i don't think this makes overwatch a bad game, just not what banny is looking for
@@diney7085you can call plenty of things trash for simple reasons, even if they are popular.
i generally do agree with you i imagine, but overwatch has very seldom had a good and fun competitive scene. the casual scene is super subjective, but b4nny wouldnt be playing there. i think its pretty fair to call overwatch’s competitive scene trash, and i feel like a lot of overwatch pros would agree.
@@diney7085 Popularity invalidates the "trash" label? - I'm not so sure about that. Evaluate it on its own design goals. It was supposed to be a PVE Hero MOBA but it got completely lost in the temporary popularity of a PVP shooter. The competitive scene got milked for all it was worth, then the PVE got cancelled, and the paywall grew to absurd heights. I feel like "trash" is about the nicest label possible. One could say the same about TF2's state of abandonment and I don't think b4nny could disagree. But again if you evaluate TF2 on its own goals, it accomplished everything and then some long ago.
0:38 if you want to watch the video and keep all your brain cells
Seriously poster why tf is there that xqc nonsense at the beginning
ive never played overwatch, but something that ive always thought about is the sheer number of characters in overwatch, like that has to be extremely difficult if not impossible to properly balance right? i mean tf2 has had a hard enough time over the 10 years the game was getting updates to balance the classes and weapons in both more casual and competitive enviornments, and while there are a ton of weapons, theres only 9 classes compared to however many overwatch has.
also overwatchs heroes just dont have the character the tf2 mercs ooze, imo
you cant force genuine, thats y ow characters usually feel so hollow
Each character is designed like a designated subclass, that's why there are so many
Apex, siege, dota, val, lol, ect.
A large playable roster is possible.
Thanks for including the entire clip he's reacting to so I don't have to go find it on my own.
overwatch has a heavy over relieance on low skill ceiling ability buttons, tf2 has rich high ceiling mechanical depth
@@a6pukoc113TF2 was made for a casual audience. Overwatch lacks in depth compared to TF2 because of Blizzard's continued and failed attempts at shaping the meta into what they see as "exciting".
@@mustardboo9017 sorry, sounds like typical quote from valve fanboy with superiority complex
@@a6pukoc113 nah it's true tf2 was made for casual fun because the game didn't even have a competitive ranked mode until 2016 that's a whole 9 years with no ranked mode
Another reason is the spy balance, the spy is completely dogshit in competitive play but valve kept nerfing him because spy was terrorizing the casuals
Great points in the video and even more so in the comments and I agree with pretty much all of it.
One thing I find funny about Overwatch is that iirc the developers said they wish to reduce the importance of counter-picks. However, if you have a roster of 40 unique characters with unique abilities that aren't customisable and need to contribute as a team for success then of course counter-picks are going to be a part of the game and there's nothing they can do about it. I really don't see how it's possible to reduce the necessity of counter picks. If anything you would think that making the game 5v5 instead of 6v6 would INCREASE the requirement of counter-picks as there is one less player who may reduce a character's weakness.
Tldr - counter picks will always be meta due to the way the game and characters are designed fundamentally.
You can't sentry jump in Overwatch.
ow doesnt have random crits
Yes, OW is trash now, blizzard ruined it.
But OG DVA was the most fun Character one could ever play. Clapping any hero 1v1 while spamming annoying voice lines and then seld destructing throwing your mech for a tripple kill was the most fun i ever had in video games. I miss those times.
Overwatch changed a lot into a direction where Tanks were must-peel characters and DVA was moved from the bully tank to the Defence Matrix Bot. Sad Times.
I do agree that overall TF2 is the better game, but not for the same reasons necessarily. The overall compositions of the classes and their functions are evidently just more streamlined and tested in TF2 which makes for amazing gunplay.
OW started a bit loose but could've been on the same level if not better, but focused on amassing hero content which didn't help its overall structure. Putting standard gameplay aside (which can get stale in both games comp or casual), TF2 did the smart thing by allowing its playerbase to reign the steads, which greatly improved replayability, and opened up new ways to play the game with just a bare minimum of characters and mechanics.
Basically TF2 is a case of doing small things really, really well while OW has a lot of high potential content that didn't really get fleshed out as much as they should have.
Both games are flawed in their own rights, but in comparison people generally don't care about TF2's issues when playing the game. People do when playing Overwatch.
Though, I have not played OW2, so all my opinions are moot on that one.
Prob the most sane take on here. I think they are 2 different but similar games.
They are both like faster-paced arena shooters but with no weapon pickups and a class/hero system instead. OW is like if you took moba characters and threw them into an fps and TF2 is like if you took the traditional arena shooter weapons and distributed them across characters.
Yeah, overwatch operates a lot on the hype of new characters being added and it's a mess for balancing.
That being said TF2 does kind of have some issues with non-vanilla weapons effectively turning certain classes into totally different characters which can make the careful balancing of the base game a little iffy, but I'd take that over overwatch's approach of just sanitizing every character down to a baseline for the sake of keeping things "balanced".
imagine if heavy was just a guy with a hammer and a 2000hp shield that you had to dps🤣
TLDR: Overwatch is like playing against Wrangler/Vaccinator every match
I kinda stopped playing TF2 when hats with effects were introduced and every public server was 24v24 or something like that. But he definitely has a point. I enjoyed TF2 more but I think you really need to be in a clan to be able to enjoy TF2 nowadays.
TF2 keeps it simple. The classes and subclasses arent wildly different, and its digestable.
But because of its simplicity, theres alot of emergent gaemplay in it, that makes TF2 have a much higher skill ceiling but not impossible to get into.
Also people arent bullet sponges.
Also its impractical asf to "main" a character on TF2. Everybody switches between stuff they like.
Also TF2 got actual weapons you can unlock. Litterally you can litterally make CUSTOM CLASSES to suit what your doing.
Ion even know how to articulate it but the games just more fun in general. OW is too corny and the community is infested with redditors.
"Custom classes" other than a few items changing playstyles like demoknight, Soldier banners, mediguns, and things like the flare gun or Bonk! most of the extra weapons in TF2 are just minor stat changes. Scout will always be fast and use a shotgun, Soldier will always be mobile, tanky, and use a rocket launcher, Heavy will always focus on using a minigun, Spy will always focus on being stealthy and going for backstabs or sapping buildings. Outside of a few notable subclasses, the weapons do not change the core gameplay of each class.
In OW, sure none of the heroes on their own are customizable, but each one is as or more unique than any TF2 subclass, and the "customization" is in finding unique hero combos to do unique things, like speedboosting a Rein and Mei into close quarters as Lucio rather than just pumping heals into them as any other support, or accompanying a flanking DPS as Kiriko to increase their effectiveness. The gameplay is all about synergizing with your team, which is more satisfying to pull off successfully than just doing puff-n-sting Pyro combos.
You can argue that you like the simplicity of tf2 more, that's ok! But to claim that simplicity = higher skill ceiling is... completely false. Overwatch has 10x the heroes that each have their own 2-3 abilities + ultimates + passives and you need to know how each one these things interact with each other and how team compositions interact with each other.
The extra complexity of Overwatch in terms of quantity and diversity of heroes is *explicitly* increasing the skill ceiling of the game.
Simply look at his gameplay to understand the difference. Compare TF2's rocketjumping to one key movement abilities in Overwatch. There's more depth to everything in TF2 and it requires more mechanical skill, because as he said: TF2 is a shooter, OW is a first person MOBA.
b4nny spittin
he's saying all this while pulling a majestic ass rocketjump rollout that would take me years to learn.
"The gamemodes are trash, the maps are trash"
And what isn't, I assume is probably just ripped content from TF2
When I was making a few videos about TF2 vs OW a while ago for fun, he hit the map design on the head. Played TF2 from 2009-2019 and OW since 2019.
TF2 has been, and always will be a better game. But they are VASTLY different.
OW's map design is created like a line with VERY LITTLE variety, whereas TF2's map design is centered around flanking angles. OW, by its design, HAS to be linear. OW favors team based plays 80% of the time and individual plays 20% of the time and TF2 is the exact opposite. 20% team based plays and 80% individual plays.
If you're not taking advantage of the numerous flank routes and off angles in OW, you're not playing the game right. You just read that OW is all about only going down main somewhere on Reddit and assumed it was correct.
@@tau-5794 dont tell him that there are flank-based characters in overwatch, that specialize in using said flank routes to setup a big play for the team or he might implode
original saw this clip ages ago then started playing tf2 650 hours now and have come back to this clip and know the “this guy” guy
honestly, the main difference is that TF2 is fun even while losing, when i started i was laughing at how the f did a flying soldier sent my head flying back at spawn. i was burning shit, dying, rinse and repeat. When i tried Over watch and started losing due to the fact i was a noob, it wasnt fun, it just felt like i had no chances and the only fun matches were the one were my team carried me to victory
b4nny is a phenomenal gamer in general, he could easily have gone pro in OW and made a lot of money but he sticked with TF2. Respect.
how the hell does anyone understand what xqc says. I literally could understand him saying "overwatch to tf2" "overwatch tf2" "tf2 overwatch" and everything else was gibberish
i feel like people hated overwatch at first cus they thought it was gonna kill tf2
I can actually tell what the hell is going on in TF2 vs Overwatch being full of neon lights, laserbeams and bright decals all over the place while characters scream at the top of their lungs mapwide
I hate to be that guy, but some of what b4nny said is just not true. I mean, he has all the right to not like Overwatch, it can be a style of game he doesn't like.
But what he said about lack of individual impact is just a lie, shields aren't that much proeminent in Overwatch metagame... Hell, how can someone say a game's map design is trash, when TF2 has a ton of maps that rely on choke point spamming?
As someone that racked up a lot of hours on both games, I find this to be an uninformed opinion. Famous case of "I've heard that the game is like this, but I've never tried to understand/play it properly"
This is a very old clip of b4nnys back when shield meta was a thing pretty sure, back when we played shit like volskaya industries with its 1 choke point on attack, maybe you could flank with symmetra to around the side but symmetra sucked back then
I agree, it's just incredibly biased and full of assumptions, most TF2 players are a hive mind that think the same so they'll always think the game sucks because of it.
@@IgorNetoAnimation bu- but some Intellectual Video Essay said Tf2 is the most Genius and Best game in GAMING HISTORY and also it is better than ow!
@@IgorNetoAnimation we are so back
So what I'm getting from this is that most of us (the TF2 community, I mean) dislike Overwatch because they differ heavily in gameplay, even if they are both team based shooters. The reason why they HATE Overwatch is because they're just bitter people.
Could be because Overwatch still gets very consistent updates also
I know it's fun to shit on OW and put TF2 on a pedestal, but TF2 and OW are different games and have always been different games. A lot of the points he makes are really faulty.
"Gamemodes are trash"
It has the same gamemodes as TF2 for the most part. Payload, King of the Hill, Control Points, even CTF. The only one people unanimously hate is Push and for good reasons.
"Map Design is trash"
I agree the maps aren't very inspired for the most part and they're pretty boring, but I wouldn't call them trash with a few exceptions. Anubis, Paris, Moon, and all the push maps suck 100%. But Hollywood, Route 66, and Kings Row are good examples fun maps. Plus, TF2 has a lot of bad maps like Wutville, Steel, Hydro, Dustbowl, etc. That doesn't mean the game is bad just because some of the maps are bad.
"Lack of Individual Impact"
This one is a bit controversial, but if one person can stomp an entire match that's not a good thing. OW's problem is that matches are too swingy. That has nothing to do with individual performance, but it has everything to do with hero balancing and synergies. Both OW and TF2 focus on team synergy and cooperation. One Scout cannot take out an entire sentry nest plus the people guarding it all by himself unless there's a massive skill discrepancy. You're not always going to be the main character of a match and to expect that every game speaks of arrogance and ego.
"Hard Counters, Shields, and Ultimates ruin the fun"
Obviously, he doesn't like that the game is more about using abilities to counter, and that's fine. But that's how the game is. That's like complaining you can't double jump in Call of Duty or you can't eat 50 bullets in Siege. It's a different game, so there are different rules. If you don't like it, that's fine. But that's the game. It's not bad because you don't like the core of the game, it's bad for other reasons.
FYI, I'm not an OW fanboy. That game lost all its fun the second they hyperfocused on competitive and not on having fun. People became super toxic, balancing was either breaking a character to the point they were bullshit or nerfing them to where they were useless. And this was before the pathetic excuse of a sequel they call OW2 which was just a way to delete the old game and install a shitty cash shop and battlepass. I'm not blindly defending OW because I know the game is not perfect. But I'm just sick of all these TF2 elitists smugly shitting on the game without understanding *why* it's bad.
Finally someone who has actually played more than 10 hours in Overwatch and doesn't just say it sucks because they couldn't afford it on launch
The last 2 points are basically the main parts of the core issue. Its bad because it doesn't actually work. Mixing a MOBA with a Shooter just simply fails. Its just not that fun. But its REALLY not fun for people who's interested in the kind of game TF2 is. movement based arena FPS.
It's so damn obvious with the dramatic design changes over the years that OW had undergone that there is inherent design issues. What you bitch about with competitive is because competitive showed the glaring issues because its people who know how to play. I remember early in the games life the transition from deathball comp to dive comp. It just proves again that movement is king. and the only way the devs could "fix" it is by adding a fuckload of stuns, which everyone hated - again proving the design issues. You picked characters for 1 of their abilities or just for a ultimate. (lets not even get into how OW intended you to swap characters on the fly but the game simultaneously punished you for it and the game functioned far too fast for it to matter). Oh, and you basically were countered by having your counter-character just basically existing on the enemy team. the game really just turns into a case of rock-paper-scissors match of constant counterpicks, it's just terrible.
OW2 then tried to remedy a lot of this by streamlining all the characters along "roles", making characters more about different flavors and minor playstyle differences that fulfill similar purposes.
I can go on but its such a clusterfuck of issues.
The problem is that they tried to shoehorn this game design into the competitive scene and I think b4nny's comments lean towards that mentality. The bad maps of TF2 aren't really valid for many reasons: #1 TF2 includes community made maps, #2 some of the official "bad" maps were balanced around the state of the game 15 YEARS ago, #3 some of the objectively bad maps are the most beloved in pubs - in other words they are fine maps just no good for competitive. Stop and think that the bad maps of OW are in a modern AAA game from a major company with millions spent on development. Something is wrong there. Also realize that as you pointed out the only decent game modes of OW were all pre-existing concepts. The only unique mode is the one people "unanimously hate" - something is very wrong there. When the most experienced TF2 pro on the planet calls your game modes trash and you point out that it's a different game and the modes are all the same, you actually just proved his point. If they wanted to make a decent competitive game with all the same modes as TF2, they should probably listen closely to b4nny, if they want to make something else that's fine and they should ignore b4nny, but they obviously failed to decide either way and just lean to the green instead.
Steel is a good map tho
@@sliceronsteam
#1 Community maps *officially added* by Valve. They used to have more quality control, but that's in the gutter. I'm not talking about a meme map like Desert Bus either.
#2 Being old isn't an excuse for a map being bad. If Dustbowl was released today, people would be furious.
#3 These maps are beloved because 1) Nostalgia blindness and 2) People have played on them so much they ignore the flaws. The fact that pros play on a separate version of maps (many of them community-made) shows that maps in TF2 aren't the greatest.
#4 A lot of TF2 gamemodes have existed before TF2. Quake had TDM (which Control Points borrows heavily from) and CTF but nobody in their right mind would say TF2 and Quake are the same game. Plus, it's ironic to call out OW's gamemodes when pro TF2 players only ever play 5 CP and KOTH.
#5 I think listening to pro players about game design isn't a great idea. That's exactly what caused OW to go into a spiral of shit. Pros play in their own little bubble with things that they take for granted. Video games aren't a hobby they do after work, it *is* their work. Expecting the game to get better when you balance it for a handful of people is ridiculous. Expecting everyone to play at or near the level of a handful of people is ridiculous.
As a personal opinion, I think optimization is the death of fun. When you "optimize" TF2, you get sixes. And people have been complaining for YEARS that sixes is stale, predictable, and boring. How many fun and unique weapons are blacklisted because they're deemed "too op"
Playing a game well and designing a game well are two different things. I'm not saying b4nny isn't a good player, but being a good player doesn't mean you know what's best to make a fun game. It's like saying a professional binge eater would make a good chef or a porn photographer would be great at sex.
I'd continue, but I know how arguing on the internet works. Everyone yells at one another that they're wrong and nothing gets done. It just aggravates me the people who criticize OW the harshest are people who have barely played the game and just devolve into "OW bad TF2 good give me upvotes pls"
Deadlock proved being moba isn't part of the cringe. It's just overwatch being cringe.
I've never been good at either game, but I've played both OW1 and TF2 extensively. I had a great time with Overwatch. I particularly stomped at Lucioball in Summer Games, but I was kind of over OW shortly after Sigma came out. I remember being excited for the announcement of OW2, only for that excitement to naturally wane as time progressed. I'd already gone back to TF2 and haven't touched Overwatch since probably 2019.
As easy as it is to compare OW and TF2, both games look and feel absolutely different; Aesthetically, mechanically, fundamentally different. I share the opinion of many when I say OW was definitely something fresh, but after a couple of years it lost its luster and gameplay overall became stiffer and stiffer. It didn't have the staying power that TF2 continues to have despite its flaws.