Karajan re-recorded partially out of vanity, possibly, but largely because he was chasing - not entirely sanely- the perfect recorded sound. So as 'sonics' became ever more sophisticated, he felt compelled to have another go. And another....his pursuit of 'beauty' became an end in itself....
I bought that as an LP the day I left school in 1974. I still play it quite often (Albeit on The CD transcription) It's a wonderful recording of two wonderful symphonies!
Tom Stewart told me that when Karajan was in the pit, it was total magic and he felt free to do his best. He said the same about Horst Stein. But Karajan was '"IT" for him
Pretty great choice! My choice would be a tie between the Dvorak 8th and the Holst Planets with the Vienna Philharmonic. He did his best work with that orchestra.
And also Prokofiev's First Symphony. Those first and last movements move at a clip-as they should. I've heard some comical (leaden) approaches to the first movement from other conductors, but Karajan gets it just right.
The one I'd choose is the 1964 version of the Brahms Fourth Symphony. I couldn't care less how many times he recorded it. All of the versions are quite good and I could have chosen any one of them. But he is my favorite conductor of this piece, and the first movement in this particular recording brings me chills. Absolutely beautiful.
I really enjoy his recording of "The Planets" with the Vienna Philharmonic from 1961. It doesn't have any of his usual technical fussing in the control room; the sound is great and the performance always gives me the impression that they were all playing a lovely new work to them that wasn't over-rehearsed.
I thought you might pick his Pelléas et Mélisande or another opera. I like Honegger’s symphonies a lot I’ll check this out. Congrats on 3000 videos & thank you so much.
Really solid choice. You've mentioned this here and in other videos, and I agree: Karajan saw himself as the champion of the Viennese tradition and recorded the Viennese masters until the studios were bludgeoning us with his discs. And in doing so he seemed to have lost the critical distance necessary to raise those recordings above the rest of the pack. You add that Karajan's choral performances were "👐eeehhhmmmmnnn"--and you're not wrong. (Just listen to any of the Ninth recordings, where he seems not to know what to do with his chorus.) But I want to volunteer an oratorio recording for the Dark God. His Haydn Creation! The recording came out of nowhere--who would've expected Karajan to bring such a potent blend of good humor and profundity to this piece? And with the all-star lineup of Janowitz, Ludwig, F-D, Wunderlich, and Berry, even the recitatives are must-listens. The only comparable Karajan vocal recording is his equally surprising Cosi fan tutte, which shines with a lightness and joy hard to find in Karajan's Viennese recordings. (Though I'm an admitted heathen and also love his Tristan.) The Creation was certainly never neglected, and it's a work blessed with a plethora of great recordings. Yet Karajan's account is inspired as well as the definitive document of how his conducting brought out the best in players and singers.
I couldn't agree more. This is the only cd by Karajan that I play and revere. His soaring strings at the emotional climax of the 3rd's slow movement are sublimely transcendental
I know you ruled out opera, but my favorite (and most frequently played) Karajan recording is Das Rheingold, and, yes, I know, some people can't stand DFD as Wotan (but I admire him).
I think I first heard this album in 1997 and also my very first exposure to Honegger. I definitely remember it being extremely compelling and mysterious. I've only heard the Dutoit and Jansons CDs but just listen to Karajan when I want to hear the works.
The manufacture of ‘Karajan soup’ seemed to begin when Michel Glotz became ‘the embodiment of Karajan’s will’ in the control room. That name on the credit means odd balances and extreme dynamic range.
Your choice was certainly one of the recordings I had selected, but there are others, like the Prokofiev 5th and the Bruckner 8th with the Vienna Phil. I also have a soft spot for his Vienna Phil./Decca "Planets", even though I know he rerecorded it with the Berlin Phil on DGG.
I would have picked his Handel Concerti Grossi op. 6 - also outside his wheelhouse. And rarely has the love affaire between orchestra and conductor been more evident.
Say what you like about Karajan, when i first started my Classical music journey there were a myriad of artists, composers and conductors on records, what better to grab the coat tails of one conductor and let him take you through the jungle of works, hundreds of which everybody was telling you were THE BEST, advisers loved to catch you out with obscure suggestions almost impossible to find. In latter years after visiting the Royal Albert Hall several times and becoming wiser about the landscape of Classical music and its inhabitants i still have a soft spot for the mighty K and still enjoy his work, and many other obscure and esoteric works and workers. (-:
I just saw the Festival Strings Lucerne perform the Pastorale d’ete friday night as the opening piece in their performance. Was there for Beethoven 4, the Schumann violin concerto in D minor and Beethoven Romance in F Major featuring Midori as soloist. The Pastorale peaked my interest immediately. I had never heard any Honegger before. So I find this video very timely as I intend to look into Honegger more. Thanks Dave for another great video.
Very well said. The clarity of the performance in the Honegger symphonies is closer to Karajan's recordings of pre Berlin Philharmonic era. As to repetitions in recordings, it is true that his style did not evolve dramatically from the 60's thru the 80's. I believe that was his shortcoming as an artist. Then again most conductors do not evolve by a vast degree.
I think that his Prokofiev 5 or Shostakovich 10 could be also excellent choices, but I absolutely agree with Honegger. Also, I'd like to suggest Bernstein for this section. And I would choose his New York Rite of Spring, because I think that recording summarizes Bernstein's general approach to music making: excitement, even fury, personal commitment and the feeling he is recomposing the work but always from the score. The way he throws himself into the music was amazing.
Not a huge HVK fan, but both of his Shostakovich 10s are amazing. Karajan also once said if he wrote music, it would be much like Shostakovich, so it’s interesting he didn’t choose to record more of it.
Will check out the Honegger. (I have now listened to the Honegger. These are masterful, gripping performances of the Second and Third Symphonies.) My choice is Karajan's Berlin recording of Mahler 4. The beauty of both the string playing and the soloist's singing take my breath away. Am I a sucker for the "treatment?" Perhaps.
The Honneger is a great choice, but I think I might have plumped for one of his last VPO recordings of Bruckner (I think a good riposte to your assertion that he wasn't at his best in core Germanic repertoire - and don't tell me Bruckner was Austrian so he doesn't count) - perhaps the 7th Symphony? Karajan wasn't shy about espousing composers who weren't always popular (as you've pointed out elsewhere, Bruckner isn't). But I think my top Karajan recording would have been another composer he extolled - Sibelius. For me, the Sibelius 5th symphony recording from the 1960s comes out on top. This was done still early enough in his tenure at the BPO that he hasn't completely "Karajanised" their sound, and it's clear that he always loved Sibelius. A great recording to lay at the feet of your evil god Canzecrans.
Have nothing to complain about your choice, I fully agree with you. Though personally I'd pick his VPO Holst's The Planets. I am always fascinated by how distinctively different it is compares to pretty much anything else in the game, and just how spacy, colourful and violent Karajan made the music into. In my view that recording almost turned Holst's creation into a different piece of music altogether, considering other recordings of the piece, but in a good sense. Karajan really realised the potential of what the music itself could become with that piece.
I hear you about repeating works, but I think performers see things differently. They know that they are always varying their performances, no two performances are quite the same, and their thinking evolves over the years. Even though we as listeners may feel that later performances are slower, less energetic, less spontaneous, or whatever, the performers, of course, see their most recent performance as being closest to what they are currently feeling about the music, perhaps having got tired of their previous approach (as good as it was), since they are the ones having to play the same music hundreds of times (only a tiny fraction of which are recorded) without getting bored of it. So they may not see any one performance (or recording) as "definitive" the way collectors do. They don't see any as sacrosanct. In fact they are taught from early on to constantly make their music-making spontaneous and varied, like "if a phrase is repeated, play it a little differently (somehow) the second time than the first; try out different things". So many performers are always trying to be spontaneous and try different things, every time they perform.
It's not one disc exactly, but I would choose his Götterdämmerung. The orchestral playing is simply stupendous (for me the greatest period for Karajan/BPO was the years around 1970).
I have the Karajan recording and I agree with your comment. I know about the oily string playing by Karajan,I know this is the wrong place to put this comment,what do I care I am too old.I assume you know he made two discs of Prussian marches with the wind section of the Berlin Philharmonic which I always been impressed with
I enjoy the Honegger disk very much. But if I were to choose one, it would be the Second Viennese School box. Perhaps it is cheating, but since you gave Bernstein all six Paris Symphonies, I think we can give Karajan S, B, and W. His Verklarte Nact and Webern blow me away still, and I have been listening to them for more than 40 years.
For me, the only other recording that might equal Karajan’s version of Honegger’s Liturgique symphony is Neeme Järvi’s with the Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra on Chandos. Baring that, Karajan’s is sublime.
Yes....Beecham's Boheme...Beecham gets the idiom right, and with protagonists like de los Angeles and Björling..well, they break the bank! Karajan's recording is of course very good, but as in so many of his later opera recordings, he inadvertently makes the orchestra the protagonist numero uno, whereby the balance between the singers and the orchestra gets skewed detrimentally (as opposed to fx his great Cav-Pag with the La Scala Orchestra, even though the orchestral sumptuousness gets its due in the gorgeous intermezzi).
The Beecham Boheme, yes, it stands head and shoulder above the competition. There’s also an intimacy to the sound picture and the voices which none of the others manage to equal and which just suits this opera so well.
A minority opinion, but I've never liked that Boheme. Too grandiose, inflated, lacking true intimacy. Both Pavarotti and Freni did the work and their roles more justice under other conductors. When it comes right down to it, I don't really care for any of his Puccini.
I am not going to enrage the great god Cancrizans - but I would try smuggle the Salome in too. And I will use the “tone poem with voices” argument to duck the “not opera” argument.
@@saltech3444 I believe that is correct, but it seems strange if Karajan never even performed it with his "home" orchestra, the BPO, while recording it with a "guest" orchestra, the VPO. Thus depriving the BPO and their audiences of experiencing a unique 20th century masterpiece.
Superb choice - for another recording of repertoire outside his wheelhouse that I think is superb, I would pick his recording of Giselle on Decca with Vienna
young, I traveled a lot, and when I went to Germany I went inside the Jesus Christus Kirshe Church in West Berlin where Karajan made his first recordings for DGG, a very beautiful church with magnificent stained glass. in my opinion karajan is better recorded in this church than at the berlin philharmonic where I always found that the sound was not ''clean''....and if I only had to take one recording by karajan which I listen to often, yes, the Parisian symphonies of Haydn, which in my opinion are played here in an eloquent and intelligent way, on the other hand the London ones are missed. too ""big" for my taste......
Dear Dave, I really disagree with the idea that an jnterpreter whether conductor or pianist shouldn't record twice the same piece. Sometimes one finds more than one way into a composers soul and it doesn't negate the one that came previously. I though agree with you on the Karianized comment...
I never said they should never do it twice, I said they shouldn't do it twice unless they have something meaningful and new to say--as you suggest. I agree with that completely.
Bravo on the choice of the Honegger recording, it is fantastic, and a long time favorite!
Karajan re-recorded partially out of vanity, possibly, but largely because he was chasing - not entirely sanely- the perfect recorded sound. So as 'sonics' became ever more sophisticated, he felt compelled to have another go. And another....his pursuit of 'beauty' became an end in itself....
Yes I agree, I think you have put this very well.
I bought that as an LP the day I left school in 1974. I still play it quite often (Albeit on The CD transcription) It's a wonderful recording of two wonderful symphonies!
Tom Stewart told me that when Karajan was in the pit, it was total magic and he felt free to do his best. He said the same about Horst Stein. But Karajan was '"IT" for him
Pretty great choice! My choice would be a tie between the Dvorak 8th and the Holst Planets with the Vienna Philharmonic. He did his best work with that orchestra.
I can only agree! That Honegger is right up there with his Prokofiev 5, Shostakovich 10 (the 2nd one), and his DG Sibelius 4.
And also Prokofiev's First Symphony. Those first and last movements move at a clip-as they should. I've heard some comical (leaden) approaches to the first movement from other conductors, but Karajan gets it just right.
The one I'd choose is the 1964 version of the Brahms Fourth Symphony. I couldn't care less how many times he recorded it. All of the versions are quite good and I could have chosen any one of them. But he is my favorite conductor of this piece, and the first movement in this particular recording brings me chills. Absolutely beautiful.
I really enjoy his recording of "The Planets" with the Vienna Philharmonic from 1961. It doesn't have any of his usual technical fussing in the control room; the sound is great and the performance always gives me the impression that they were all playing a lovely new work to them that wasn't over-rehearsed.
Couldn't agree more, though I would be hard pressed to choose between this and the Prokofiev 5th or the Second Viennese School box set.
I thought you might pick his Pelléas et Mélisande or another opera. I like Honegger’s symphonies a lot I’ll check this out. Congrats on 3000 videos & thank you so much.
I’m listening to the recording now & the only word to describe it would be INTENSE 💥
Great choice. I almost forgot about the Pelleas--who knew Karajan and Von Stade together would create such a vivid recording.
Really solid choice. You've mentioned this here and in other videos, and I agree: Karajan saw himself as the champion of the Viennese tradition and recorded the Viennese masters until the studios were bludgeoning us with his discs. And in doing so he seemed to have lost the critical distance necessary to raise those recordings above the rest of the pack.
You add that Karajan's choral performances were "👐eeehhhmmmmnnn"--and you're not wrong. (Just listen to any of the Ninth recordings, where he seems not to know what to do with his chorus.) But I want to volunteer an oratorio recording for the Dark God. His Haydn Creation! The recording came out of nowhere--who would've expected Karajan to bring such a potent blend of good humor and profundity to this piece? And with the all-star lineup of Janowitz, Ludwig, F-D, Wunderlich, and Berry, even the recitatives are must-listens. The only comparable Karajan vocal recording is his equally surprising Cosi fan tutte, which shines with a lightness and joy hard to find in Karajan's Viennese recordings. (Though I'm an admitted heathen and also love his Tristan.) The Creation was certainly never neglected, and it's a work blessed with a plethora of great recordings. Yet Karajan's account is inspired as well as the definitive document of how his conducting brought out the best in players and singers.
I agree with you regarding that version of The Creation. It's a marvel.
I couldn't agree more. This is the only cd by Karajan that I play and revere. His soaring strings at the emotional climax of the 3rd's slow movement are sublimely transcendental
I know you ruled out opera, but my favorite (and most frequently played) Karajan recording is Das Rheingold, and, yes, I know, some people can't stand DFD as Wotan (but I admire him).
I think I first heard this album in 1997 and also my very first exposure to Honegger. I definitely remember it being extremely compelling and mysterious. I've only heard the Dutoit and Jansons CDs but just listen to Karajan when I want to hear the works.
I would pick Sibelius symphony 5 and 7 recording with the BPO. HvK did his best work in his Sibelius recordings.
That whole series of 20th century classics on DG was full of winners. Might make a fabulous box set.
The manufacture of ‘Karajan soup’ seemed to begin when Michel Glotz became ‘the embodiment of Karajan’s will’ in the control room. That name on the credit means odd balances and extreme dynamic range.
Your choice was certainly one of the recordings I had selected, but there are others, like the Prokofiev 5th and the Bruckner 8th with the Vienna Phil. I also have a soft spot for his Vienna Phil./Decca "Planets", even though I know he rerecorded it with the Berlin Phil on DGG.
I would have picked his Handel Concerti Grossi op. 6 - also outside his wheelhouse. And rarely has the love affaire between orchestra and conductor been more evident.
Say what you like about Karajan, when i first started my Classical music journey there were a myriad of artists, composers and conductors on records, what better to grab the coat tails of one conductor and let him take you through the jungle of works, hundreds of which everybody was telling you were THE BEST, advisers loved to catch you out with obscure suggestions almost impossible to find. In latter years after visiting the Royal Albert Hall several times and becoming wiser about the landscape of Classical music and its inhabitants i still have a soft spot for the mighty K and still enjoy his work, and many other obscure and esoteric works and workers. (-:
Just bought it at Presto music. I could not resist Dave again.
I just saw the Festival Strings Lucerne perform the Pastorale d’ete friday night as the opening piece in their performance. Was there for Beethoven 4, the Schumann violin concerto in D minor and Beethoven Romance in F Major featuring Midori as soloist. The Pastorale peaked my interest immediately. I had never heard any Honegger before. So I find this video very timely as I intend to look into Honegger more. Thanks Dave for another great video.
Yes, agreed. The Berg Lyric Suite and 3 pieces a close second.
Very well said. The clarity of the performance in the Honegger symphonies is closer to Karajan's recordings of pre Berlin Philharmonic era. As to repetitions in recordings, it is true that his style did not evolve dramatically from the 60's thru the 80's. I believe that was his shortcoming as an artist. Then again most conductors do not evolve by a vast degree.
I think that his Prokofiev 5 or Shostakovich 10 could be also excellent choices, but I absolutely agree with Honegger.
Also, I'd like to suggest Bernstein for this section. And I would choose his New York Rite of Spring, because I think that recording summarizes Bernstein's general approach to music making: excitement, even fury, personal commitment and the feeling he is recomposing the work but always from the score. The way he throws himself into the music was amazing.
He's already done Bernstein. (I won't spoil the surprise. But it's not what you chose.)
@@dennischiapello7243 , ups!!! 😄
Not a huge HVK fan, but both of his Shostakovich 10s are amazing. Karajan also once said if he wrote music, it would be much like Shostakovich, so it’s interesting he didn’t choose to record more of it.
Will check out the Honegger. (I have now listened to the Honegger. These are masterful, gripping performances of the Second and Third Symphonies.)
My choice is Karajan's Berlin recording of Mahler 4. The beauty of both the string playing and the soloist's singing take my breath away. Am I a sucker for the "treatment?" Perhaps.
My choice: Tchaikovsky's Third Symphony, from about 1978. Impressive. and yet few people speak about it.
The Honneger is a great choice, but I think I might have plumped for one of his last VPO recordings of Bruckner (I think a good riposte to your assertion that he wasn't at his best in core Germanic repertoire - and don't tell me Bruckner was Austrian so he doesn't count) - perhaps the 7th Symphony? Karajan wasn't shy about espousing composers who weren't always popular (as you've pointed out elsewhere, Bruckner isn't).
But I think my top Karajan recording would have been another composer he extolled - Sibelius. For me, the Sibelius 5th symphony recording from the 1960s comes out on top. This was done still early enough in his tenure at the BPO that he hasn't completely "Karajanised" their sound, and it's clear that he always loved Sibelius. A great recording to lay at the feet of your evil god Canzecrans.
Shrewd choice Dave 👍
My favorite Karajan recording is his Richard Strauss Metamorphosen. He recorded it many times (at least 3?) and I didn't spend time to compare them
Have nothing to complain about your choice, I fully agree with you. Though personally I'd pick his VPO Holst's The Planets. I am always fascinated by how distinctively different it is compares to pretty much anything else in the game, and just how spacy, colourful and violent Karajan made the music into. In my view that recording almost turned Holst's creation into a different piece of music altogether, considering other recordings of the piece, but in a good sense. Karajan really realised the potential of what the music itself could become with that piece.
I hear you about repeating works, but I think performers see things differently. They know that they are always varying their performances, no two performances are quite the same, and their thinking evolves over the years. Even though we as listeners may feel that later performances are slower, less energetic, less spontaneous, or whatever, the performers, of course, see their most recent performance as being closest to what they are currently feeling about the music, perhaps having got tired of their previous approach (as good as it was), since they are the ones having to play the same music hundreds of times (only a tiny fraction of which are recorded) without getting bored of it.
So they may not see any one performance (or recording) as "definitive" the way collectors do. They don't see any as sacrosanct. In fact they are taught from early on to constantly make their music-making spontaneous and varied, like "if a phrase is repeated, play it a little differently (somehow) the second time than the first; try out different things". So many performers are always trying to be spontaneous and try different things, every time they perform.
It's not a question of seeing anything as "definitive."
Great choice, Dave! These recordings are stunning.
I've always liked Karajan in Modern music.
It's not one disc exactly, but I would choose his Götterdämmerung. The orchestral playing is simply stupendous (for me the greatest period for Karajan/BPO was the years around 1970).
I thought you might have gone for Prokofiev 5-with the tam/tam.
I would choose his recordings of Sibelius symphonies for DG.
I have the Karajan recording and I agree with your comment.
I know about the oily string playing by Karajan,I know this is the wrong place to put this comment,what do I care I am too old.I assume you know he made two discs of Prussian marches with the wind section of the Berlin Philharmonic which I always been impressed with
Yes, I made a video. Nazis on Parade.
I enjoy the Honegger disk very much. But if I were to choose one, it would be the Second Viennese School box. Perhaps it is cheating, but since you gave Bernstein all six Paris Symphonies, I think we can give Karajan S, B, and W. His Verklarte Nact and Webern blow me away still, and I have been listening to them for more than 40 years.
I very good choice. I was considering that set too.
For me, the only other recording that might equal Karajan’s version of Honegger’s Liturgique symphony is Neeme Järvi’s with the Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra on Chandos. Baring that, Karajan’s is sublime.
What about Karajan's La Bohème? Is there anything more beautiful?
Yes.
Yes....Beecham's Boheme...Beecham gets the idiom right, and with protagonists like de los Angeles and Björling..well, they break the bank! Karajan's recording is of course very good, but as in so many of his later opera recordings, he inadvertently makes the orchestra the protagonist numero uno, whereby the balance between the singers and the orchestra gets skewed detrimentally (as opposed to fx his great Cav-Pag with the La Scala Orchestra, even though the orchestral sumptuousness gets its due in the gorgeous intermezzi).
The Beecham Boheme, yes, it stands head and shoulder above the competition. There’s also an intimacy to the sound picture and the voices which none of the others manage to equal and which just suits this opera so well.
A minority opinion, but I've never liked that Boheme. Too grandiose, inflated, lacking true intimacy. Both Pavarotti and Freni did the work and their roles more justice under other conductors. When it comes right down to it, I don't really care for any of his Puccini.
I am not going to enrage the great god Cancrizans - but I would try smuggle the Salome in too. And I will use the “tone poem with voices” argument to duck the “not opera” argument.
I'll let Him know.
People do, however, listen to Toscanini's opera recordings for the conducting, in spite of the less than stellar singers.
Yes, there's an exception to every rule.
I made a bet with a friend that you'd pick Holst's Planets. Oh, yeah. It must be fun, though.
I was tempted, but you'll learn why I didn't in due course.
Curious though that when Rattle went to the BPO, he said he found they didn't really know The Planets, and were grateful to be reintroduced to it.
@@saltech3444 I believe that is correct, but it seems strange if Karajan never even performed it with his "home" orchestra, the BPO, while recording it with a "guest" orchestra, the VPO. Thus depriving the BPO and their audiences of experiencing a unique 20th century masterpiece.
I think lots of people listened to opera for the conductor if he be a star like Kleiber or Currenzis
Currenzis is not a star.
His Boris Godunov rocks.
I believe we all knew this would be your choice 🤣
"It's going to be the Verklärte Nacht, it's going to be the Verklärte Nacht": I was wrong
Superb choice - for another recording of repertoire outside his wheelhouse that I think is superb, I would pick his recording of Giselle on Decca with Vienna
young, I traveled a lot, and when I went to Germany I went inside the Jesus Christus Kirshe Church in West Berlin where Karajan made his first recordings for DGG, a very beautiful church with magnificent stained glass. in my opinion karajan is better recorded in this church than at the berlin philharmonic where I always found that the sound was not ''clean''....and if I only had to take one recording by karajan which I listen to often, yes, the Parisian symphonies of Haydn, which in my opinion are played here in an eloquent and intelligent way, on the other hand the London ones are missed. too ""big" for my taste......
Dear Dave, I really disagree with the idea that an jnterpreter whether conductor or pianist shouldn't record twice the same piece. Sometimes one finds more than one way into a composers soul and it doesn't negate the one that came previously. I though agree with you on the Karianized comment...
I never said they should never do it twice, I said they shouldn't do it twice unless they have something meaningful and new to say--as you suggest. I agree with that completely.
David, if you could choose only one work by Massenet, what would it be?
That's a future video!