There's that rehearsal of Traviata where he says they are very good but in Italian opera they are terrible. He really did feel the basses were the padroni (bosses) of the orchestra. The rhythm came from the bottom.
Great talk! Please consider a talk on national differences in conducting and interpretation, e.g., German, Czech, French, Hungarian, English - these distinctions are not always recognized in the 21st century, as globalization leads to more musical homogeneity, but the rich recorded legacy we have preserves them😊 for all to hear and appreciate. I believe most well-known American and Asian conductors, because of their models and teachers, continue those national traditions, perhaps without conscious knowledge of them.
Let’s not crank up the old music-nazionalismo argument, eh? Only a German can really plumb the depths of a Beethoven symphony, only a Frenchman has that certain ‘je ne said quoi’ for Debussy, the true glories of Verdi can only be revealed by an Italian etc What a bunch of crap! 😀
"Furtwangler didn't like recordings because he had to hear what he sounded like." I also loved "oleaginous". It's a real word (I looked it up). I'd never heard of it before and now I wish I had. I could have used that so many times in my music career!
David, have you watched this Bernstein interview now on YT: "Kennedy Center Honors Legend: Leonard Bernstein (In-Depth Interview)" where he talks about the quirks of many of the great conductors? He tells moving tales about his education and the incredible, intimate interactions with Toscanini, Furtwangler and especially Karl Boehm, but also Koussevitzky, and Munch. I saw the interview immediately after I watched your video and I thought they fit well together, and Bernstein amplifies everything you say. It also makes one realize the awesome musicality required to be a great conductor.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on Karajan's recording of Handel's Opus 6--it's so wrong, but a total hoot, sort of like Mantovani conducting the "101 Strings" orchestra! It gives new meaning to the adjective "lush."
Maybe not a mannerism as such, but Stokowski and his tinkering with the score - not always of course, but often enough to make you dread listening for what he may or may not do.
One of my great teachers: Gerry Carlyss of the Philadelphia Orchestra, said of Bernstein....when you needed absolute clarity from the podium, you got it!
Karajan and Berlin Philharmonic must have really loved Finlandia because their performance (the mid '70's EMI and the early '80's DG ) is so much more intense, heartfelt and exciting than anybody elses version. They make it sound like really great music whereas everybody elses sounds like a uncaring run through. I think Mr. Sibelius would have loved Karajan's interpretation of Finlandia. I know I do!
You are absolutely right in that Herbie‘s Bartók was coupled with Apollo. That performance of Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta is probably the most listened to ever, because it was this very recording that was included in Kubrick‘s The Shining.
Another major Karajan mannerism in opera is the frequent "whispering" singing. No other conductor asked his singers to sing quasi "mezza voce" - almost "Markieren" (rehearsal voice) so often.
Speaking of Bernstein, have you heard the recordings made by... Bradley Cooper of all people for that Bernstein biopic, apparently assisted by Nezet Seguin? Classic FM has gone nuts about it. I can already see one of the scarves.
Yup! During the closing credits there’s a conspicuously sloppy Candide overture. It was an odd choice of exit music to begin with, considering the downbeat nature of the film, but it should have been better performed.
@nihilistlemon1995 Some people have made a cottage industry over the last few years knocking Ormandy. I think he's demonstrably superior to YN-S and Philadelphians might well rejoice to have the former back if they could.
There's that famous story where a trombonist under Reiner brought a pair of Opera Glasses to rehersal as a joke - to which Reiner got out a piece of paper and wrote 'You're Fired' in tiny letters...
Ha, I remember an article about Fritz Reiner in an old issue of "America" magazine in Russian (this issue was published during Reiner’s lifetime). There was the following phrase: “His gestures are so restrained that even at the moments of the greatest climaxes they do not go beyond the average size of a crossword puzzle.”😂
I once made the (rookie) mistake of getting seats too close to Eliahu Inbal when he was guest conducting the Toronto Symphony - his tuneless grunting was initially hilarious but ultimately infuriating while Joshua Bell was playing the Beethoven Concerto. Luckily the second half of the program was Shostakovich's 5th, so he was drowned out most of the time.
I’ve been a big fan of Leonard Bernstein’s recordings and compositions for a long while. Your videos have only increased my interest and enjoyment of his work. He passed away a few years before I was getting into the genre which only increased my interest in not only his work but his life. From images, video and books about Bernstein it’s obvious his smoking was completely out-of-control so I’ve always wondered if the constant smoking interfered with rehearsals or made musicians and staff uncomfortable? (I realize he lived in decades where smoking was ubiquitous). I think I will now listen to the On The Waterfront soundtrack which is a masterpiece.
I thoroughly enjoyed this talk. There's a clip of Bernstein's Mahler 2 doing the rounds due to the new film and I cannot watch it for what I think is the over emotional seizure he's having. However, your points have made me reflect on what I think about his approach. I really like the balance you bring to your points.
A now deceased friend of mine - an art student in the 1950s and confidante of Elizabeth Frink: a time when all sorts of debunking was going on - referred to Otto Klemperer as "Klumperer": because he got slow as he aged, and was never what you might call brisk. However - not trusting her prejudices, I listened to Klemperer conducting Beethoven - I haven't listened to enough even now to make a judgement, but - I was very impressed by what I did hear. There was a monumentality, which I can understand was out of fashion just after the war, when heavy Germanic solemnity might have been in the doldrums. I don't recall any outstanding mannerisms, because film of Klemperer is quite rare - but he certainly divided opinion among the contentious art students in the middle years of the last century. Loved your remarks about Furtwängler - both the one about his distaste for recording because he'd have to hear himself, and the epileptic fit point: I saw him (on film) conducting - and remember wondering how orchestras were supposed to respond to that long figure twitching and jerking above them; when he was good, though, he was very very good - and when he wasn't .... well, then just enjoy the good stuff!
right behind roger norrington, andmaybe one or two others, your distate for solti has been demonstrated numerous times. i remember 1 positive remark and a couple of other left handed compliments. i watched solti for 5 years in chicago and never saw any of this.
No one cares what you saw. I am speaking about recordings, which anyone can hear for themselves. And your characterization of my description of Solti's performances can't be less accurate. I have praised many of his recordings over the years, and on this channel.
@@DavesClassicalGuide i apologize for my mis-characterization of solti's performances. however, i think your comment 'no one cares what you saw' is just plain rude. at least i cared.
Re: Bernstein (esp in the 60s w/ Columbia) - I wonder how often were the 'teaching' moments because the recording of the work coincided with his inclusion of the work in that season's young persons concerts. :) (I looked at the recording dates for some pieces on the CDs and matched them up and yes, quite a few of the recordings were very soon before or after the YPC of the same piece.)
I was sure you will mention Osmo Vanska with his super duper pianissimos as you recently pointed out, but then I realized that he isn't really a major conductor. Anyway, thank for the video, Dave!
I was surprised to hear Dave complain about the sonics of Solti's Decca recordings. I just heard the opening of the last movement of Mahler's 7th by both Solti and Bernstein (the '60s versions), and there's no doubt that the Solti SOUNDS better. (Boy, he takes it fast!) Of course, the digital clean-up really helps those old Mahler recordings that Bernstein did for Columbia -- the ones that I grew up with.
I agree the operas sound better, and I said that, but his Chicago stuff, especially the early digitals, was not good initially. There were exceptions of course. There always are.
My only point of reference for Solti is his Shostakovich 10 disc with the CSO from 1992 on Decca, a live recording. I bought it in my youth, not for any informed reason but just because. Listening to it now on a very good two-channel system, I’m indeed disappointed by the sonics. Especially the loud passages are marred by an excessive forwardness, density, lack of air, and narrowness of soundstage in the strings.
@@LohensteinioThe acoustics of Orchestra Hall were trashed during the 1966 renovation to install air conditioning and the hall is very dead and non reverberant and with Deccas hard ugly digital sound it's a blueprint for disaster. It's a crime what they did to Orchestra Hall. Originally it was a wonderful recording venue with lots of bloom and resonance. All the Reiner records done in the 1950's and early 1960's had a beautifully spacious hall sound. The incompetent renovators ruined it. The Chicago Tribune called it an "Acoustical Calamity" and the music critics said "The Signature Sound of the Hall had been Destroyed". An unbelievable blunder!
You have mentioned that (quite rightly) that Karajan's first and only priority was the strings. I assumed you have heard the two disc set of Prussian and Austrian Marches he made for DG with the Berlin PO wind and brass sections,which to my ear are pretty good,for my part, not a reader of music
I worked once with Harnoncourt and I was shocked how insecure he was, he got lost, he was a pain in the $%& to work with, not especially with me, but with the Orchester, they hated him.
With Solti I often feel he sucks the air out of a lot of music, with what I call an impulsive haste. HvK was best in non-German music, where his Holst Planets, Prokofiev's 5th symphony, Honegger 2/3, DSCH 10, are almost matchless. Maazel annoys with odd choices (idiosyncratic) of emphasis or timing of a phrase, and Bernstein could be wilful and perverse. His Dvorak 9 has zero love or affection going for it, and there are times when he dragged an adagio out to infinity, but DH is very correct when he says Bernstein was mostly very faithful to the score.
Shaw (GBS) observed of Beecham that he was more in love with the idea of 18th century music in general than Mozart in particular. A very shrewd obervation. He could shape things beautifully, but sometimes he veers into a mincing quality as with his Magic Flute overture or the last movement of Schubert's 6th symphony, which he "cutsifies" to death.
Hi Dave, you described, Bernstein which I love , so well. Hope this comparison will make sense , and won’t considered too personal: Teaching math at college I , personally, feel deep connection/correlation between my teaching enthusiasm and provoking excitement of the students, and my scientific and research creativeness . For people who love to teach and create there is a deep connection
Dear Mr. Hurwitz thank you very much for such an interesting video. If it is appealing to you, I think, it would be of great interest to make a video about the instrumentalists who started conducting 'at a mature age ', when they were celebrities already. Which of them are interesting, which are not? Alex, Lviv
You are so right about Bernstein; his virtues really were his defects; if I were to select one Great American Musician …HOWEVER… it would have to be Bernstein: Great Composer (YES!), great educator and the Greatest Conductor of the 20th century. And you are also so right about Solti; here in Chicago he was and is still revered but his concerts could be a snooze and yet his concert Meistersingers was a sublime experience. And yes, yes YES! to Karajan’s Finlandia; I listen to it often.
@@classicallpvault I am in a minority when it comes to my friends-and probably most music lovers-in that I just don’t like Ives; it’s a personal preference. I wouldn’t say Bernstein is the greatest American composer, to me that would be Copland or Carter, but I do think Bernstein was a great composer and an underrated one; he’s hardly unplayed when it comes to his most famous works but most of his music isn’t programmed enough( like most American composers!). What I meant was overall I think he was the best American musician, great in many fields.
Mitropoulos had the habit of shaking both his hands in the air before actually starting to conduct the orchestra - I remember seeing him do this after every pause in a vid of him rehearsing with the NYP. Somewhat like a cat or a dog shaking their head...
According to his widow Solti never listened to his music once committed to vinyl/disc. There is one single example: the production team finally had him listen to the introduction to Das Rheingold up to the entrance of the Rheinmaidens. I paraphrase: marvellous, awe inspiring. I only saw him conduct once at the Maggio Musicale Fiorentino circa 1990. He conducted Mahler 5 with LSO. It was very fine indeed. But not mind blowing, transcendental etc.
One thing I've noticed in the Karajan recordings I dislike is this dichotomy. The opening and closing will be tremendous, and everything in the middle will be porridge, as if he zones out and wakes up just in time for the finish.
Because you were talking about Sir Georg Solti, I was wondering if you were going to consider reviewing the brand new Solti in Europe box set. I would love to hear your views on the box set and each recording!
The premise of this video reminds me a lot of Lorin Maazel, a conductor that I loved and admired tremendously but who frustrated me to no end with certain repertoire and on certain evenings. I saw Lorin Maazel quite a bit in NY and elsewhere later on in his career, and he was perhaps the most purely skilled conductor I have ever seen. He could make an orchestra follow him so precisely on every twist and turn with the most precise hand motions, with the orchestra always staying together with pinpoint precision even through the most extreme and unexpected changes of tempo and dynamics. But therein lies the "mannerism" issue -- boy did excessive and idiosyncratic rubato become a problem for him, especially in mid-19th century Romantic repertoire where it did not belong. From listening to his earlier recordings, this problem seems to have worsened over time. For example, I had long treasured his early-career recording of the Mendelssohn Reformation symphony and was looking forward to seeing him conduct it decades later in NY, but he completely butchered it. It got to the point where I would not go to any concert where he was conducting Mendelssohn, Brahms, Schumann, Dvorak or the like. On the other hand, in later-style music that lends itself more strongly to flexible phrasing and tempi -- Bruckner, Strauss, Wagner, Shostakovich -- he was (usually) absolutely wonderful. For example, he absolutely mastered Bruckner's 8th, one of the most titanic and challenging symphonies in the repertoire, both on record and in live performance (I was lucky to see one). And conversely, in classical-era music, even he tended to shy away from the excessive rubato, and he could be quite good there too, up to and including Beethoven (e.g., I saw him conduct Haydn's Creation and it was marvelous).
Whenever I watch Karajan conduct, he does this strange thing with his shoulders that looks like some sort of calisthenic. I used to watch Solti a fair amount live in Chicago, he would do these weird angular motions with his elbows that seemed to increase the orchestra's edginess. My favorite mannerism that I have seen recently was on the Charles Munch video of the Berlioz Symphony Fantastique, where he took the baton in two hands and looked like he was hammering a big spike into his music stand. Of course, these are all physical mannerisms, I guess you were referring to musical mannerisms.
I saw a documentary about Solti where one of his orchestra members talked about how difficult it was to know where Solti was indicating the beat until he realized that it was Solti's left elbow! Apparently he wasn't being tongue in cheek, he really meant that the orchestra watched Solti's left elbow.
I have the record with the Stravinsky/Bartok coupling under Karajan. It was my introduction to Bartok's music. The fugue of the first section was incredible. I did not find his Apollo appalling, even though I admit I haven't listened to many other performances of that piece to form a good judgement. The most common complaint I seem to encounter on the web about Karajan is by people who are annoyed by his controlling tendencies and tend to read political implications in them.
A fascinating topic that leads me to thinking about Mahler’s place in the pantheon. So far as I know, there’s no recorded legacy of his presence on the podium. As a person who’s developed an interest in contrasting interpretations, all we’ll ever have are Mahler’s copious notes on scores. This seems like a great loss.
First time commenting. (Wow. You have rules! Who woulda thunk?) This vid much appreciated. Anyway... re von K's superb string sonority. When i was a lad i heard same thing about Ormandys Philad. Once or twice someone offered explanation for how, in practical terms, O achieved that. Can someone (or has someone already) give expln of what von K did, in material terms, to get his string sound?
There is a video of HvK working with a student rehearsing the cello section of the BPO in the opening of Beethoven 5th Sym 2nd movement. That shows his particular approach and preferences very well.
Hallo, David! I am very grateful for your work and all your podcasts. I disagree with one thing you said about HvK. I would never say that he hated singers or choirs. Certainly, he would butt heads with singers who didn't want to surrender control (Nilsson, Varnay...). Nontetheless, I feel he loved voices and singers in general. He wasn't the supreme accompanist that Levine was, but he loved singers and their artistry. Very often, singers are more dramatically alive in his opera recordings than they sound under other great conductors. I will say that on recordings, he relied too heavily on technical production to compensate for his assigning voices that were too small or wrong fach -- he wanted a tone or an interpretation and hired people who weren't up to it. Ricciarelli is responsible for her own foreshortened career, but he definitely tempted her to the edge. Jess Thomas had a very successful career in Wagner, but on recording under HvK seems to be all flaws and no strengths. That said, some singers adored him and sang beautifully for him (Leontyne, Maria, Gedda, Taddei, Schwarzkopf...). His love affair with the Singverein in Vienna is documented. He would do anything for them and they for him. Agreed?
No. And when I said "hated," I think it was clear that I meant anything that threatened to remove the spotlight from himself. Anyway, the recordings speak for themselves in their frequent miscasting, distancing of choral parts, etc. Yes, he worked with some very great singers who more than held their own and managed to enter into genuine collaborations with him--I don't deny that at all. I love many of his opera recordings. But that, you will note, was earlier in his career. Things got progressively worse as he got progressively more autocratic.
Agree with your perspective on Bernstein as teacher and, as widely acknowledged, a charismatic performer. Stokowski was also a charismatic podium personality but beyond that he had a great ear for sonority. Even the way he arranged his musicians on the stage made a difference. A video on conductors and orthodox/unorthodox seating arrangements of the different sections of the orchestra would be welcome. Btw, the commentators on hand-fluttering Gergiev are spot on and I lament the boost of this mediocrity by the Met and major orchestras.
Certainly. No matter how well Walter knew Mahler, he was a different man. Mahler could certainly build up climaxes in his symphonies, and I seem to find Walter rarely did that.
I wonder if even the Mahler specialists are a little embarrassed by the composer. Your point that Bernstein's supposed "excess" is simply a faithful reading of Mahler's notation was made clear to me recently. In the first movement of the Second Symphony, Bernstein hammers away at those repeated chords just before the recapitulation of the first movement. It seemed excessive to me, even corny. Yet the score has the entire last bar of the passage marked with a simultaneous ritardando and crescendo from forte to triple forte. Evidently, Lenny and Gustave were both heart-on-sleeve guys.
I don't understand how a crescendo and ritard equals "heart on sleeve." It's powerful, intense, and exciting, but hardly mawkish or sentimental in the way you describe.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Not what I meant to say. That passage sounded more exaggerated under Bernstein than I was used to hearing, yet the score showed that was clearly what Mahler was going for. Bernstein doesn't hang back, even if "modern sensibilities" have conditioned us (listeners and conductors both) to a more austere approach. I disown the words corny, heart, sleeve--and mawkish and sentimental, which I didn't use! 🥴
Harnoncout’s sluring of staccato passages in Mozart and Beethoven really put me off. I used to like it cause it was different. But now I just feel like he is taking too many liberties with the score. Annoying… but I still like them 🤷
“An epileptic seizure” ha! Very interesting- Solti was a great dramatist, that’s for sure - but he could miss things in his search, I guess, for the big hit. - not all the time but sometimes. Maybe he needed the pace of opera to slow him down…”Solti in Europe” is out 😎. Hope we hear about it!
Michael Tilson Thomas reaches a crescendo and holds it way too long. It is as if he wants all to stop and listen to the wonder sounds. It drives me crazy.
LOL! The most hilarious and accurate description of Furtwangler I've ever heard. Just watching an old film of Furtwangler's "technique" is enough to make you wonder how in hell the musicians could adapt to that. It's as if he's trying to throw the musicians off.And with that 10 foot-long baton to boot! Great insights into all five!
How about the most irritating mannerism of all? I speak, of course, of the disturbing modern trend of conductors insisting on keeping their arms and hands elevated after the final chord of a piece for an excruciatingly long time, so that the audience can meditate on the interpretive profundity of said conductor's performance before said audience is "allowed" to applaud. I am always SO tempted to start clapping about five seconds in...
At Charlotte Symphony concerts there used to be a fan who apparently wanted everyone to know that he knew the end of the piece, so he would start clapping and shouting “Bravo” while the last note was still sounding. I found that really annoying. So when a conductor lets the sound die away to silence, that gives a moment for the music to sink in, I’m fine with that.
@@reuven78 Impatience has nothing to do with my complaint. It is, rather, that when a conductor holds applause for an UNNATURALLY long time, I feel that he's attempting to shift the audience's attention from the music to himself and the profundity of his interpretation. In a word-it's showboating, not adding to our communal experience of the music. And as a professional musician myself, I respectfully disagree with you about clapping between movements-any spontaneous signs of life in the museum-like atmosphere of concert halls is welcome as far as I'm concerned. The "no clapping between movements" is a modern convention anyway-that's not what happened in the days that most of these works were written.
Everytime you talk about Toscanini's rigidity, his "CONTRABASSI" resonates in my mind.
There's that rehearsal of Traviata where he says they are very good but in Italian opera they are terrible. He really did feel the basses were the padroni (bosses) of the orchestra. The rhythm came from the bottom.
@bbailey7818 ::
The bass is a very neglected instrument. Hey, I'm in total agreement with the maestro. But hey, I'm also a nobody.
Great talk! Please consider a talk on national differences in conducting and interpretation, e.g., German, Czech, French, Hungarian, English - these distinctions are not always recognized in the 21st century, as globalization leads to more musical homogeneity, but the rich recorded legacy we have preserves them😊 for all to hear and appreciate. I believe most well-known American and Asian conductors, because of their models and teachers, continue those national traditions, perhaps without conscious knowledge of them.
What an excellent idea!!
Interesting!
Let’s not crank up the old music-nazionalismo argument, eh?
Only a German can really plumb the depths of a Beethoven symphony, only a Frenchman has that certain ‘je ne said quoi’ for Debussy, the true glories of Verdi can only be revealed by an Italian etc What a bunch of crap! 😀
So fair minded to say that these guys get it right more than they get it wrong! Great post!
"Furtwangler didn't like recordings because he had to hear what he sounded like." I also loved "oleaginous". It's a real word (I looked it up). I'd never heard of it before and now I wish I had. I could have used that so many times in my music career!
David, have you watched this Bernstein interview now on YT: "Kennedy Center Honors Legend: Leonard Bernstein (In-Depth Interview)" where he talks about the quirks of many of the great conductors? He tells moving tales about his education and the incredible, intimate interactions with Toscanini, Furtwangler and especially Karl Boehm, but also Koussevitzky, and Munch. I saw the interview immediately after I watched your video and I thought they fit well together, and Bernstein amplifies everything you say. It also makes one realize the awesome musicality required to be a great conductor.
A very interesting talk, which will make me pay extra attention, when I watch some of those mentioned, conducting. Thank you.
Love the remarks about Bernstein…so spot on
Bernstein could have been a pole dancer😅
I'd love to hear your thoughts on Karajan's recording of Handel's Opus 6--it's so wrong, but a total hoot, sort of like Mantovani conducting the "101 Strings" orchestra! It gives new meaning to the adjective "lush."
You read my mind.
Maybe not a mannerism as such, but Stokowski and his tinkering with the score - not always of course, but often enough to make you dread listening for what he may or may not do.
Oh, but my God the Wagner in the 30s
One of my great teachers: Gerry Carlyss of the Philadelphia Orchestra, said of Bernstein....when you needed absolute clarity from the podium, you got it!
Karajan and Berlin Philharmonic must have really loved Finlandia because their performance (the mid '70's EMI and the early '80's DG ) is so much more intense, heartfelt and exciting than anybody elses version. They make it sound like really great music whereas everybody elses sounds like a uncaring run through. I think Mr. Sibelius would have loved Karajan's interpretation of Finlandia. I know I do!
Is there not a pattern here, like a person’s strongest character is also their greatest weakness (when overdone/over emphasised)?
Loved this one! You put into words the very things that bug about Solti and HvK. But those were two distinctive sounds.
You are absolutely right in that Herbie‘s Bartók was coupled with Apollo. That performance of Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta is probably the most listened to ever, because it was this very recording that was included in Kubrick‘s The Shining.
On my LP it's coupled with Mathis der Maler.
@@jasonklein8102 I believe you are talking about the earlier EMI recording. This is about the DG recording from the mid ‘70s.
Another major Karajan mannerism in opera is the frequent "whispering" singing. No other conductor asked his singers to sing quasi "mezza voce" - almost "Markieren" (rehearsal voice) so often.
Speaking of Bernstein, have you heard the recordings made by... Bradley Cooper of all people for that Bernstein biopic, apparently assisted by Nezet Seguin? Classic FM has gone nuts about it. I can already see one of the scarves.
Seguin and LSO are really not a good mixe
Yup! During the closing credits there’s a conspicuously sloppy Candide overture. It was an odd choice of exit music to begin with, considering the downbeat nature of the film, but it should have been better performed.
The music in the movie disappointed me, because LB himself did it so much better, and because it was far too loud. Why not use the originals?
@nihilistlemon1995 Some people have made a cottage industry over the last few years knocking Ormandy. I think he's demonstrably superior to YN-S and Philadelphians might well rejoice to have the former back if they could.
Dave, you forgot about Fritz Reiner. His tiny beat pattern was the bane of many musicians.
There's that famous story where a trombonist under Reiner brought a pair of Opera Glasses to rehersal as a joke - to which Reiner got out a piece of paper and wrote 'You're Fired' in tiny letters...
Ha, I remember an article about Fritz Reiner in an old issue of "America" magazine in Russian (this issue was published during Reiner’s lifetime). There was the following phrase: “His gestures are so restrained that even at the moments of the greatest climaxes they do not go beyond the average size of a crossword puzzle.”😂
@@dashunin That's so perfectly brutal.
Leonard Bernstein studied under Reiner. According to Lennie, Reiner was "mean", but had a "fierce" love for music.
If you ever do a video about conductor's quirks, I hope you will mention Barbirolli's singing!
So glad someone mentioned Barbarolli. Couldn’t make it through his classic Mahler 5 for his incessant humming. Totally distracting.
Listen to a Beecham's live recording of Brahms 2 (last 3-4 minutes) 🙂
I don't recall hearing Barbirolli singing in any of his recordings, which is more than I can say for Glenn Gould.
I once made the (rookie) mistake of getting seats too close to Eliahu Inbal when he was guest conducting the Toronto Symphony - his tuneless grunting was initially hilarious but ultimately infuriating while Joshua Bell was playing the Beethoven Concerto. Luckily the second half of the program was Shostakovich's 5th, so he was drowned out most of the time.
I’ve been a big fan of Leonard Bernstein’s recordings and compositions for a long while. Your videos have only increased my interest and enjoyment of his work.
He passed away a few years before I was getting into the genre which only increased my interest in not only his work but his life.
From images, video and books about Bernstein it’s obvious his smoking was completely out-of-control so I’ve always wondered if the constant smoking interfered with rehearsals or made musicians and staff uncomfortable? (I realize he lived in decades where smoking was ubiquitous).
I think I will now listen to the On The Waterfront soundtrack which is a masterpiece.
I thoroughly enjoyed this talk. There's a clip of Bernstein's Mahler 2 doing the rounds due to the new film and I cannot watch it for what I think is the over emotional seizure he's having. However, your points have made me reflect on what I think about his approach.
I really like the balance you bring to your points.
A now deceased friend of mine - an art student in the 1950s and confidante of Elizabeth Frink: a time when all sorts of debunking was going on - referred to Otto Klemperer as "Klumperer": because he got slow as he aged, and was never what you might call brisk. However - not trusting her prejudices, I listened to Klemperer conducting Beethoven - I haven't listened to enough even now to make a judgement, but - I was very impressed by what I did hear. There was a monumentality, which I can understand was out of fashion just after the war, when heavy Germanic solemnity might have been in the doldrums. I don't recall any outstanding mannerisms, because film of Klemperer is quite rare - but he certainly divided opinion among the contentious art students in the middle years of the last century.
Loved your remarks about Furtwängler - both the one about his distaste for recording because he'd have to hear himself, and the epileptic fit point: I saw him (on film) conducting - and remember wondering how orchestras were supposed to respond to that long figure twitching and jerking above them; when he was good, though, he was very very good - and when he wasn't .... well, then just enjoy the good stuff!
right behind roger norrington, andmaybe one or two others, your distate for solti has been demonstrated numerous times. i remember 1 positive remark and a couple of other left handed compliments. i watched solti for 5 years in chicago and never saw any of this.
No one cares what you saw. I am speaking about recordings, which anyone can hear for themselves. And your characterization of my description of Solti's performances can't be less accurate. I have praised many of his recordings over the years, and on this channel.
@@DavesClassicalGuide i apologize for my mis-characterization of solti's performances. however, i think your comment 'no one cares what you saw' is just plain rude. at least i cared.
Re: Bernstein (esp in the 60s w/ Columbia) - I wonder how often were the 'teaching' moments because the recording of the work coincided with his inclusion of the work in that season's young persons concerts. :)
(I looked at the recording dates for some pieces on the CDs and matched them up and yes, quite a few of the recordings were very soon before or after the YPC of the same piece.)
I was sure you will mention Osmo Vanska with his super duper pianissimos as you recently pointed out, but then I realized that he isn't really a major conductor. Anyway, thank for the video, Dave!
I was surprised to hear Dave complain about the sonics of Solti's Decca recordings. I just heard the opening of the last movement of Mahler's 7th by both Solti and Bernstein (the '60s versions), and there's no doubt that the Solti SOUNDS better. (Boy, he takes it fast!) Of course, the digital clean-up really helps those old Mahler recordings that Bernstein did for Columbia -- the ones that I grew up with.
Solti's Mahler 8 on Decca was a sonic demonstration record. Most of his opera recordings, like the Rosenkavalier sound magnificent.
I agree the operas sound better, and I said that, but his Chicago stuff, especially the early digitals, was not good initially. There were exceptions of course. There always are.
My only point of reference for Solti is his Shostakovich 10 disc with the CSO from 1992 on Decca, a live recording. I bought it in my youth, not for any informed reason but just because. Listening to it now on a very good two-channel system, I’m indeed disappointed by the sonics. Especially the loud passages are marred by an excessive forwardness, density, lack of air, and narrowness of soundstage in the strings.
@@DavesClassicalGuide One exception being his New World Symphony, though the tone modulates quite a bit
@@LohensteinioThe acoustics of Orchestra Hall were trashed during the 1966 renovation to install air conditioning and the hall is very dead and non reverberant and with Deccas hard ugly digital sound it's a blueprint for disaster. It's a crime what they did to Orchestra Hall. Originally it was a wonderful recording venue with lots of bloom and resonance. All the Reiner records done in the 1950's and early 1960's had a beautifully spacious hall sound. The incompetent renovators ruined it. The Chicago Tribune called it an "Acoustical Calamity" and the music critics said "The Signature Sound of the Hall had been Destroyed". An unbelievable blunder!
Agreed on all counts! One current mannerism that tends to annoy me is Dudamel's hair bounce.
You have mentioned that (quite rightly) that Karajan's first and only priority was the strings.
I assumed you have heard the two disc set of Prussian and Austrian Marches he made for DG with the Berlin PO wind and brass sections,which to my ear are pretty good,for my part, not a reader of music
I made a video about it: "Nazis on Parade." One of Karajan's best albums.
By "annoying mannerisms" I thought you meant making funny faces while conducting; in which case, Ton Koopman wins a gold medal.
I worked once with Harnoncourt and I was shocked how insecure he was, he got lost, he was a pain in the $%& to work with, not especially with me, but with the Orchester, they hated him.
With Solti I often feel he sucks the air out of a lot of music, with what I call an impulsive haste. HvK was best in non-German music, where his Holst Planets, Prokofiev's 5th symphony, Honegger 2/3, DSCH 10, are almost matchless. Maazel annoys with odd choices (idiosyncratic) of emphasis or timing of a phrase, and Bernstein could be wilful and perverse. His Dvorak 9 has zero love or affection going for it, and there are times when he dragged an adagio out to infinity, but DH is very correct when he says Bernstein was mostly very faithful to the score.
Shaw (GBS) observed of Beecham that he was more in love with the idea of 18th century music in general than Mozart in particular. A very shrewd obervation. He could shape things beautifully, but sometimes he veers into a mincing quality as with his Magic Flute overture or the last movement of Schubert's 6th symphony, which he "cutsifies" to death.
Sorry, but the Berlin Zauberflöte is egregious.
Every, but every, playout/tag to everything has to be about the conductor?
Hi Dave, you described, Bernstein which I love , so well. Hope this comparison will make sense , and won’t considered too personal: Teaching math at college I , personally, feel deep connection/correlation between my teaching enthusiasm and provoking excitement of the students, and my scientific and research creativeness . For people who love to teach and create there is a deep connection
One you’ve mentioned many times… Vanska with his super duper duper duper pianisisisisisismos… drives me crazy!
They could have been marked "silencio"
Dear Mr. Hurwitz thank you very much for such an interesting video. If it is appealing to you, I think, it would be of great interest to make a video about the instrumentalists who started conducting 'at a mature age ', when they were celebrities already. Which of them are interesting, which are not?
Alex, Lviv
I learned so much from this video. Thank you Dave!
You are so right about Bernstein; his virtues really were his defects; if I were to select one Great American Musician …HOWEVER… it would have to be Bernstein: Great Composer (YES!), great educator and the Greatest Conductor of the 20th century.
And you are also so right about Solti; here in Chicago he was and is still revered but his concerts could be a snooze and yet his concert Meistersingers was a sublime experience.
And yes, yes YES! to Karajan’s Finlandia; I listen to it often.
Do you consider Bernstein a greater composer than Charles Ives?
@@classicallpvault I am in a minority when it comes to my friends-and probably most music lovers-in that I just don’t like Ives; it’s a personal preference. I wouldn’t say Bernstein is the greatest American composer, to me that would be Copland or Carter, but I do think Bernstein was a great composer and an underrated one; he’s hardly unplayed when it comes to his most famous works but most of his music isn’t programmed enough( like most American composers!). What I meant was overall I think he was the best American musician, great in many fields.
He was a great composer ... of musicals. The serious stuff - not so much.
@@CloudyMcCloud00 I like both but I would rather hear some of the Broadway things.
George Gershwin was the greatest American composer.
Mitropoulos had the habit of shaking both his hands in the air before actually starting to conduct the orchestra - I remember seeing him do this after every pause in a vid of him rehearsing with the NYP. Somewhat like a cat or a dog shaking their head...
According to his widow Solti never listened to his music once committed to vinyl/disc. There is one single example: the production team finally had him listen to the introduction to Das Rheingold up to the entrance of the Rheinmaidens. I paraphrase: marvellous, awe inspiring. I only saw him conduct once at the Maggio Musicale Fiorentino circa 1990. He conducted Mahler 5 with LSO. It was very fine indeed. But not mind blowing, transcendental etc.
One thing I've noticed in the Karajan recordings I dislike is this dichotomy. The opening and closing will be tremendous, and everything in the middle will be porridge, as if he zones out and wakes up just in time for the finish.
Because you were talking about Sir Georg Solti, I was wondering if you were going to consider reviewing the brand new Solti in Europe box set. I would love to hear your views on the box set and each recording!
Sure.
The premise of this video reminds me a lot of Lorin Maazel, a conductor that I loved and admired tremendously but who frustrated me to no end with certain repertoire and on certain evenings. I saw Lorin Maazel quite a bit in NY and elsewhere later on in his career, and he was perhaps the most purely skilled conductor I have ever seen. He could make an orchestra follow him so precisely on every twist and turn with the most precise hand motions, with the orchestra always staying together with pinpoint precision even through the most extreme and unexpected changes of tempo and dynamics. But therein lies the "mannerism" issue -- boy did excessive and idiosyncratic rubato become a problem for him, especially in mid-19th century Romantic repertoire where it did not belong. From listening to his earlier recordings, this problem seems to have worsened over time. For example, I had long treasured his early-career recording of the Mendelssohn Reformation symphony and was looking forward to seeing him conduct it decades later in NY, but he completely butchered it. It got to the point where I would not go to any concert where he was conducting Mendelssohn, Brahms, Schumann, Dvorak or the like. On the other hand, in later-style music that lends itself more strongly to flexible phrasing and tempi -- Bruckner, Strauss, Wagner, Shostakovich -- he was (usually) absolutely wonderful. For example, he absolutely mastered Bruckner's 8th, one of the most titanic and challenging symphonies in the repertoire, both on record and in live performance (I was lucky to see one). And conversely, in classical-era music, even he tended to shy away from the excessive rubato, and he could be quite good there too, up to and including Beethoven (e.g., I saw him conduct Haydn's Creation and it was marvelous).
There is nothing remotely over-the-top in Bernstein’s Haydn recordings. It was really Bernstein that .introduced me to the joy of Haydn .
Whenever I watch Karajan conduct, he does this strange thing with his shoulders that looks like some sort of calisthenic. I used to watch Solti a fair amount live in Chicago, he would do these weird angular motions with his elbows that seemed to increase the orchestra's edginess. My favorite mannerism that I have seen recently was on the Charles Munch video of the Berlioz Symphony Fantastique, where he took the baton in two hands and looked like he was hammering a big spike into his music stand. Of course, these are all physical mannerisms, I guess you were referring to musical mannerisms.
I saw a documentary about Solti where one of his orchestra members talked about how difficult it was to know where Solti was indicating the beat until he realized that it was Solti's left elbow! Apparently he wasn't being tongue in cheek, he really meant that the orchestra watched Solti's left elbow.
I have the record with the Stravinsky/Bartok coupling under Karajan. It was my introduction to Bartok's music. The fugue of the first section was incredible. I did not find his Apollo appalling, even though I admit I haven't listened to many other performances of that piece to form a good judgement. The most common complaint I seem to encounter on the web about Karajan is by people who are annoyed by his controlling tendencies and tend to read political implications in them.
What? No Gergiev and his Butterfly beat??
That's what I was wondering. It seems that for him twiddling his little finger is what passes for baton technique
A fascinating topic that leads me to thinking about Mahler’s place in the pantheon. So far as I know, there’s no recorded legacy of his presence on the podium. As a person who’s developed an interest in contrasting interpretations, all we’ll ever have are Mahler’s copious notes on scores. This seems like a great loss.
I heard somewhere that Mahler would conduct with a clawed hand, and Karajan copied this mannerism.
There are caricatures of Mahler on the podium from back then, I like to think of them as a starting point for us now to extrapolate how he conducted
I’ve read the account of his preparation with the NYPO for the Rachmaninov 3rd with the composer at the piano. Fascinating stuff…
I expected you to mention Karajan's conducting with eyes closed.
Very interesting....as usual😊
First time commenting. (Wow. You have rules! Who woulda thunk?) This vid much appreciated. Anyway... re von K's superb string sonority. When i was a lad i heard same thing about Ormandys Philad. Once or twice someone offered explanation for how, in practical terms, O achieved that. Can someone (or has someone already) give expln of what von K did, in material terms, to get his string sound?
There is a video of HvK working with a student rehearsing the cello section of the BPO in the opening of Beethoven 5th Sym 2nd movement. That shows his particular approach and preferences very well.
Hallo, David! I am very grateful for your work and all your podcasts.
I disagree with one thing you said about HvK. I would never say that he hated singers or choirs. Certainly, he would butt heads with singers who didn't want to surrender control (Nilsson, Varnay...). Nontetheless, I feel he loved voices and singers in general. He wasn't the supreme accompanist that Levine was, but he loved singers and their artistry. Very often, singers are more dramatically alive in his opera recordings than they sound under other great conductors. I will say that on recordings, he relied too heavily on technical production to compensate for his assigning voices that were too small or wrong fach -- he wanted a tone or an interpretation and hired people who weren't up to it. Ricciarelli is responsible for her own foreshortened career, but he definitely tempted her to the edge. Jess Thomas had a very successful career in Wagner, but on recording under HvK seems to be all flaws and no strengths. That said, some singers adored him and sang beautifully for him (Leontyne, Maria, Gedda, Taddei, Schwarzkopf...). His love affair with the Singverein in Vienna is documented. He would do anything for them and they for him. Agreed?
No. And when I said "hated," I think it was clear that I meant anything that threatened to remove the spotlight from himself. Anyway, the recordings speak for themselves in their frequent miscasting, distancing of choral parts, etc. Yes, he worked with some very great singers who more than held their own and managed to enter into genuine collaborations with him--I don't deny that at all. I love many of his opera recordings. But that, you will note, was earlier in his career. Things got progressively worse as he got progressively more autocratic.
Agree with your perspective on Bernstein as teacher and, as widely acknowledged, a charismatic performer. Stokowski was also a charismatic podium personality but beyond that he had a great ear for sonority. Even the way he arranged his musicians on the stage made a difference. A video on conductors and orthodox/unorthodox seating arrangements of the different sections of the orchestra would be welcome. Btw, the commentators on hand-fluttering Gergiev are spot on and I lament the boost of this mediocrity by the Met and major orchestras.
Gergiev's constant hand tremolos are visually annoying to me. I don't know what an orchestra player is supposed to make of them.
Bernstein more faithful to Mahler than Walter or Klemperer?!
Demonstrably so
Certainly. No matter how well Walter knew Mahler, he was a different man. Mahler could certainly build up climaxes in his symphonies, and I seem to find Walter rarely did that.
I wonder if even the Mahler specialists are a little embarrassed by the composer. Your point that Bernstein's supposed "excess" is simply a faithful reading of Mahler's notation was made clear to me recently. In the first movement of the Second Symphony, Bernstein hammers away at those repeated chords just before the recapitulation of the first movement. It seemed excessive to me, even corny. Yet the score has the entire last bar of the passage marked with a simultaneous ritardando and crescendo from forte to triple forte. Evidently, Lenny and Gustave were both heart-on-sleeve guys.
I don't understand how a crescendo and ritard equals "heart on sleeve." It's powerful, intense, and exciting, but hardly mawkish or sentimental in the way you describe.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Not what I meant to say. That passage sounded more exaggerated under Bernstein than I was used to hearing, yet the score showed that was clearly what Mahler was going for. Bernstein doesn't hang back, even if "modern sensibilities" have conditioned us (listeners and conductors both) to a more austere approach. I disown the words corny, heart, sleeve--and mawkish and sentimental, which I didn't use! 🥴
Harnoncout’s sluring of staccato passages in Mozart and Beethoven really put me off. I used to like it cause it was different. But now I just feel like he is taking too many liberties with the score. Annoying… but I still like them 🤷
what do you think about gergiev?
I don't if I can help it.
“An epileptic seizure” ha! Very interesting- Solti was a great dramatist, that’s for sure - but he could miss things in his search, I guess, for the big hit. - not all the time but sometimes. Maybe he needed the pace of opera to slow him down…”Solti in Europe” is out 😎. Hope we hear about it!
Bernstein was a TRUE maestro. He taught us music in everything he did. He was music.
Michael Tilson Thomas reaches a crescendo and holds it way too long. It is as if he wants all to stop and listen to the wonder sounds. It drives me crazy.
LOL! The most hilarious and accurate description of Furtwangler I've ever heard. Just watching an old film of Furtwangler's "technique" is enough to make you wonder how in hell the musicians could adapt to that. It's as if he's trying to throw the musicians off.And with that 10 foot-long baton to boot!
Great insights into all five!
And yet, I don't think anyone ever put TRISTAN on disc to greater effect.
@@AndrewRudinQuite.
Herby!😂
How about the most irritating mannerism of all? I speak, of course, of the disturbing modern trend of conductors insisting on keeping their arms and hands elevated after the final chord of a piece for an excruciatingly long time, so that the audience can meditate on the interpretive profundity of said conductor's performance before said audience is "allowed" to applaud. I am always SO tempted to start clapping about five seconds in...
Music’s over. Just clap. Life is too short.
Bernstein’s slow tempi were too slow, and his fast tempi were too fast. IMHO. Not to my taste.
At Charlotte Symphony concerts there used to be a fan who apparently wanted everyone to know that he knew the end of the piece, so he would start clapping and shouting “Bravo” while the last note was still sounding. I found that really annoying. So when a conductor lets the sound die away to silence, that gives a moment for the music to sink in, I’m fine with that.
You would be " shushed" in a major way. I think Abbado is responsible . And it is annoying.
" is it over or wtf?"
@@reuven78 Impatience has nothing to do with my complaint. It is, rather, that when a conductor holds applause for an UNNATURALLY long time, I feel that he's attempting to shift the audience's attention from the music to himself and the profundity of his interpretation. In a word-it's showboating, not adding to our communal experience of the music. And as a professional musician myself, I respectfully disagree with you about clapping between movements-any spontaneous signs of life in the museum-like atmosphere of concert halls is welcome as far as I'm concerned. The "no clapping between movements" is a modern convention anyway-that's not what happened in the days that most of these works were written.
talk about annoying mannerisms!!!!!!!!!!!