Joel discusses Haley video and 320 cook off
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2023
- Haley video:
• HOW TO IMPROVE SHOOTIN...
www.practicalshootingtraining...
Benstoeger.com
PSTG.US for digital coaching
Ben Stoeger books on Benstoegerproshop.com
Podcast from pstg:
traininggrouplive-pstg.libsyn... - กีฬา
If the P320 was made by Taurus every gun dealer and guntuber would tell people to avoid it like the plague. But SIG can do no wrong and everyone is so heavily invested in it to admit that it might have an inherent design flaw.
There was a recent video of a police officer where his p320 fired after being bumped by a suspect in a Safariland holster, apparently it only takes about 3-4mm of movement to set it off.
Very well said. Taurus’ reputation still hasn’t fully recovered from their own massive shake safety defect but their current semi auto pistols seem pretty good now at least as far as safety goes
Sig sucks taurus sucks
I think you have that somewhat backwards. Sigs aren't mysteriously blowing up any more than other firearms. Sig has a PR problem, where people are quick to report the p320 as a problem gun. Whenever it happens to a different gun, people just assume it was some type of user error, and no one really hears about it.
@nickdorsey253 that's a fair take. I think my biggest issue with Sig is their triggers. Both for how garbage they are and for how blind people are to them, in that they specifically praise the triggers. I've never handled a P320 or P365 that had a sear wall to break. Just one long pull. I even picked the G43x over the P365XL specifically because the Glock, while heavier, actually had a wall to the trigger sear. Then there was the MCX barrel issue. I guess it's been resolved but it wasn't a good look for the design or Sig for putting it out to market like that.
Just read a local news article. The police chief (Montville, CT) just placed an immediate order for glocks to replace all of their 320s
One good thing my stupid state has done 😂
Back in the day the local PD’s usually carried what the troopers did. The chief is a retired trooper. State Troopers just recently switched back to Glock from the P226. Glock all day. It just works.
The firing pin block on the P320 simply doesn't work, either before or after they removed the spring from it in 2019. When you add the fact that "something" is allowing the sear to release, you get unexpected loud noises
This or the gun is still inertia firing. The only ‘fix’ implemented for the latter was Sig making the trigger shoe lighter. Knowing Sig it could honestly be both. Trash gun, trash company, trash marketing.
@@JA-oo9qp One of the videos about spontaneous discharge was a USPSA shooter at a club match, after making ready and waiting for the beep. There was an entire squad that witnessed it. It was a barely used factory competition model (the X5? ). He'd done nothing to it. Bruce Gray has no answers for that, so he focuses on the "firing out of battery" claims instead.
Someone needs to sue Sig and make it stick/not just settle out of court. They can't keep getting away with this!
@@vtmegrad98 Thanks. That’s disheartening that Bruce Gray would encourage people to use an unsafe design simply because he profits from it. Either that or he’s a complete buffoon.
@@JA-oo9qp cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.
I almost bought an appendix holster from Tier One concealed for my p320. Thank God for Ben Stoeger!
Why wouldn't you?
Good ammo and bad ammo can only go off when the primer is struck. People defending sig by saying it's bad ammo are ignorant.
I’ve never heard of bad ammo going off on its own. If anything bad ammo doesn’t go off even when the primer is struck multiple times
Don't see the gun. Be the gun. - Jedi Master Haley
yeah but tell me about your gun
@@gansior4744 whichen'?
Hahaha
There is only one Jedi in the practical shooting world 😂 and his name doesn’t begin or end with “Magpul”
“I’m the apex of the cone.” -Sith Lord Mike Glover.
Been looking forward to this.
To make another hpde/autocross analogy, the P320 is the GR86/BRZ of handguns. Both are otherwise decent for what they are, but regrettably have an unfortunatr tendency to blow up when raced.
The slow driving v fast driving analogy is the same as motorcycle instructors preaching about how making tight circles and uturns at below 5 mph, with the bars at full lock in a parking lot, are somehow "skills that translate to the street."
The crazy thing is that it's not an isolated instance. This is the third time I've heard of them going off in their holsters. What do you expect when a man named Cohen takes charge of a company and outsources cheap MIM parts from India? Sig is now meant for the lowest common denominator.
What a cohencidence.
OY VEY SHUT IT DOWN!
The point of the first part is returning the gun back to natural point of aim without visually seeing it. The countdown draw drill is for creating efficiency on the draw. The 5 rounds at each distance is more of a “test”. A lot of people in classes are not working on things outside of the range so he is trying to help people by getting them “better” in the short time span he has their in person attention. Not saying any of it is wrong or right just explaining the mindset of it from the perspective I understand from instructors like him.
For people who want to get güd at shooting, there are 3 differing schools of thought:
1) Shooting a bunch of bullets without any real training structure or awareness of what’s happening while shooting. This works initially but shooters tend to hit the wall pretty quickly.
2) Daily short dryfire sessions combined with a moderate to high round count while following some type of plan, being aware, and continuously pushing outside one’s comfort zone (i.e., being okay with Cs and occasional Ds) . This seems to be the most effective method of developing very good shooters with a wide range of skill. It’s not really a realistic plan for people aren’t actually committed to putting in the work.
3) Shooting moderate to high round counts doing various patch/coin/hat tests with minimal isolation drills, staying in one’s comfort zone, and not being happy with stray rounds during training. This method can produce shooters who are quite good on the drills they routinely practice but start to fall apart the moment they’re asked to do other things. This method never gets shooters to the level of subconscious competence that can be developed with method #2, but you’ll almost certainly be the best shooter in your group of friends (unless your friends are also gun people who routinely train).
I personally use method #2, but the part I struggle with is trying to apply those
principles with newish shooters who think that “a box or 2 of ammo every few months” is enough training. Haley’s recent video only solidifies that nonsense.
I had a couple 320s they shot great and liked the grip. But when reports came in I traded them off. Their p series hammer fired guns are fine
Knowing Travis and how he is thinking about ten things at once, this works for him. It’s difficult getting students to maintain their focus on one particular topic for long periods. I have guys more interested in learning “speed reloads” over proper grip.
Travis was definitely a mvp at 2nd Force, blackwater, magpul…etc, but too intelligent to teach. I mean that as a compliment. I definitely argued his reloading technique with a rifle. Again, works for him because of how fast his brain works, but amateurs focus on the speed of flicking the mag out rather than making sure the bolt is indeed open and ready for a reload not closed due to malfunction.
Travis was absolutely not an MVP at black water, just a name.
He seems like an insufferable d-bag
Nah, too intelligent to teach would be akin to saying way too little and expecting people to just get it. Travis doesn’t do this, he just says a bunch of crap that is reminiscent of modern “functional training.” If you have ever seen videos of pro athletes doing a bunch of stupid crap on instagram, that’s analogous to what Travis is doing with shooting.
As an Autocrosser that has been fairly competitive, I totally agree with these statements. There is a time to be slow and deliberate, but at the end of the day, slow is slow. Things must be practice at speed (especially with cars as they behave much differently at their limits). The approach to shooting seems to be very similar.
It's just so interesting to me to see how these guns going off in holsters are bypassing their firing pin blocks. Would love to see someone with an firearms engineering background do a deep dive into these various pistol designs, and where a failure...somewhere can make them susceptible. Glocks seems to have REALLY hot this figured out. There's countless ones floating around with people of literally every skill level imaginable, and you never hear about them just going off. Sig has a tiny fraction of Glock's market penetration and there's simply too much smoke for there not to be some fire.
Why do guys like Max Michel and Mason Lane and Isaac Lockwood and lots of other folks shooting P320’s not have issues with their Sigs? They might use some aftermarket slides or barrels but the internals causing the problems are still there. Do they have problems and not report it? Are they all just lucky? I don’t know what to think
I mean, it's possible they are biased with a financial incentive. But we don't even have to go there to say they're only a little lucky. It's not like the P320 discharges are happening left and right. But they ARE happening. Just because it's literally 1 in 250,000 odds, ill make the choice not to own a 320 when so many other guns without that problem are readily available.
Are they carrying a p320 12 hours a day 5 days a week, round in the chamber, doing police things.
@@rklkify Uh no but they’re handling and shooting their Sigs WAY more than an entire county of cops combined so if problems are that prevalent you’d think they would have it happen to them as well. Many of the guys shooting P320’s at a high level are not sponsored by or financially incentivized by Sig
@@rklkifyI do both. Train daily with 320s and carry one for work 4-5 days a week, 10 hours a day. I, nor any of the other guys I work and compete with have had issues either. Lots of guys who've been using them for several years and have cumulatively shot over a hundred thousand rounds through those guns.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem. But it is odd that it just seems to be holstered guns in an LE setting where it's happening. I don't understand it.
@@Jon-Hamersky-Shooting ok so yeah I get they're training and shooting with p320 alot, but the issue is pistols discharging in holsters. I'm gonna guess police are more likely gonna have more time having a pistol in a holster, and moving around doing day to day tasks.
Where’s this video? No link in this description or the late video referencing it
Shooting with your Eyes closed is not something new. Brian Eno trained this from 25 m and i think even from 50m and it is described in his book.
Right but wasny it to find your point of aim? It’s almost like he is saying do it for this drill every time.
If i didn't see the gun discharge while it was totally locked in the holster, i wouldn't have believed it.
This is better. Your normal videos where you just laugh at other instructors and say they don’t know shit doesn’t help. Some of the time, we can MAYBE discern why you think it’s dumb, but most of the time we don’t know why it’s so dumb it makes you laugh unless you explain. It’s not apparent to us until you explain.
Surprisingly Vicious attack by Joel... You don't see him go off like that very often! 😯. 🤣
I love my 320's but would never carry one appendix lol but the guns blowing up isn't ammo (fuqing Bruce 🤦🏻♂️), it's known that firing pin will drop when it's not full into battery, Sig Guy has a fix, when you can pull slide back an 1/8" and still fire, getting outside of the safe zone. Never had an issue but I have my concerns
heres the thing tho travis haley is a giga chad so he could legit tell people to smear poop on their faces before you do a training session and it would still be considered as great wisdom and profound
“Giga Chad”😆
Credibility is directly proportional to the size of the biceps.
Didn’t he have an ND with an AK on video? I sure hope he gives discounts on his courses now 😂
Look at the video. The pistol is riding high in the holster, then he's grabbing the guys leg and his partner comes in to help. They're bumping into each other and the gun goes off. Now the pistol is lower in the holster.
Ben, what gun was it that you witnessed going off in a holster? Hoping it was some 2011 with a .5lb trigger.
I own several sig rifles and love them. However i find it interesting all the issues sig is having with new 365,320 pistols and the new army rifle. Something in quality control is clearly lacking at sig
I had Sig P320 xcompact that I loved shot well and had the sig upgrade/recall. I believe these are guns that haven't been sent in to get the parts replaced in the recall/upgrade but I carry appendix and wasn't willing to take the chance. But I'm still not carrying no damn Glock either!!! 😂
That’s why Jesus gave us the M&P 😎
No. These are post recall pistols
@Barnes-ml9wg unless the post says as much I will think otherwise, having said that I will not carry one otherwise. I'll carry a cz p10 not Glock! Glocks are over-rated in my opinion
Over on ARFCOM the SIG fanboys are pointing to certain moments in the video and exclaiming "There! You can see his elbow touch the gun!" LOL like even if that was the case that wouldn't be bad
Arfcom fk that site they banned me for pointing out tyranny and perma band me saying my history there was not good. Which is odd because I had never been suspended or questioned prior. To be fair I said we should throw tomatoes at the cops but they where committing tyranny and I meant it in the fashion of a bad stage performance not like to do physical harm. They didn’t care. The first amendment is as important as the second and it all included cops informing shut down laws at the high of Covid while driving freaking mrads without 50 cals on top.
Arfcom is mostly complete morons so it’s no surprise some would be saying that.
A lot of people in here wrongly assuming
Cops are competent.
"Glock leg" never existed.
Lol
I was first introduced to a slow motion style practice a few years ago. I find it is a valuable dry practice tool for learning a new technique or eliminating excess motion (during a draw, presentation, reload etc). I find there is some value in doing it live fire if you dont mind burning the ammo
Slow is smooth
Smooth is fast
This is how you learn... Legit instructors in many fields know this ☝️
You heard that on a pod cast.
Love em or hate him, Yankee Marshall did a breakdown on the sig going off in the cops holster. Made sense as it did look like the cop didnt holster the pistol properly.
I can't say that I have ever practiced kart racing slowly.
Haley has built a company on explaining the science behind what has already happened; it’s akin to having a company dedicated to explaining the history of what you did yesterday and how to do it better?? It’s like sociology in the science world; it’s not real, just a crazy explanation of why people do what they do. Overexplaining basics. Big words, small message.
The haley video and the comment section on that vid is literally just for the guys whos training consists of watching people shoot online. I'm not trying to be a hater but stoeger for prez
Ive seen some silly comments from sig fanboys like "thats why I dont apendix carry" or "thats why I dont carry one in the chamber"
The reason I sold mine is because Sigs answer to the gun being unsafe was to add a .10 cent piece of sheet metal to hold the ACTIVELY CHARGED firing pin. Yeah no thanks
Ok… I saw the video. Almost every drill he did was pointless. Almost…. his muzzle is 3 ft from the target. Ghey… eyes closed (you can do that at home dry with the same result). Ghey…. The only drills that are ok are the reload drills. Slow draw? I get it… again… do that at home to develop solid movement fundamentals. Dude is making shit up and selling it as steak. Not eating your shit Travis… nope
I think he wagon wheeled up a little close to that target in his video.
If your splits are anything less than 2 seconds you’re not putting in the work and you’re gonna have a bad time. TH
I've found progressively speeding up slow motion to be extremely useful in dry fire with regards to draws, transitions etc. I've found that doing it "perfect" slowly helps identify what's changing as you speed up and adjust accordingly, so I didn't find that portion of the video to stand out as I was watching it.
Never done it live fire, but shit I can't write off my ammo as a business expense.
All I know is haley can shoot. Seems like there are multiple ways to become good at shooting. Haley's background comes from a military type background. You guys are competition. Good info from all of you!
Haley being a good shooter and being a good trainer are two different things.
He can shoot, sure. There are ways to become good at shooting, and there are faster ways to become good at shooting
Please explain how him being a military type changes anything. I’ve never got this worship of the Mil shooters and excuses given for them. There are some great pistol shooters in the military but I’d be shocked if most of the tier 1 guys would be better than A class.
I don't think Travis' military background can be referenced for why he structures drills the way that he does. Travis seems to try to use kinesiology (or at least his understanding of it - however good or bad that may be) to inform what he does. How successful that is in arriving at valid conclusions / decisions is up for debate.
It's true that Travis is a solid shooter, and you do have to be a solid shooter to be a solid instructor (just my opinion - I'm not sold on the idea that someone can outright suck but be great at teaching others to be very good); however, you can achieve becoming a solid shooter without using the best training methods to get there. That's why there are people who end up with a strong bench press 1RM despite having a subpar training program, or really great guitar players who are worse at teaching guitar than the next guitar instructor etc.
Basically, Ben and Joel disagree with Travis' teaching methods. That's about it.
@@Azorian36 I agree. But as I said earlier I was talking about shooting ability. Obviously Travis has done something right, the dude can shoot. I've taken classes from Travis and Ben. Ben is easier to understand. I'm just saying, something is working for each of them. Both guys can run those pistols.
Could these be for tac Timmy goobers?
I thought this was gonna be about his ND video lol
Think the bullets or whatever
Travis Haley has just been doing it too long that now hes like Clint Smith where you have to know his "lore" or you won't understand a fucking word that comes out of his mouth. Everything is a rapid-fire catchphrase or his own unique branded way of saying things so it's like they're literally speaking another language. But it's Travis Haley so people are just like "Yep uh huh absolutely"
But all the former special operations guys on TH-cam tell me that the P320 is best handgun out there.
Sig has purchased clout at this point. I just can’t get over it. P250 sold like four times. Sig hires a ton of ex military officers, plays politics, gets a couple contracts and both weapons systems very sus. Now that same p250 shoots by itself and it’s the new hotness 😂
It’s crazy how few know that the 320 is a modular 250 lol
For me it’s eyes closed. You lose awareness of where your gun is pointed, your target, and what is beyond it. Granted he’s a range and closed off, but the gun is loaded.
Easily the most useless live fire practice I’ve ever seen from these bro vets
@@Huhmastasir. You apparently have yet to see DJ shipley’s goofy back plate aiming thing
@@CertifiedBullpupHater hahahaha
We need a maga doubles shirt
He has done these drills for years. I’m really surprised at the criticism???
I liked the channel better when there was less b 6:53 itching about uspsa and criticism like this.
Train how you train and the people that want your training will come.
Nothing he did is wrong. He just has a different take and philosophy.
Your comment about his bad shot assessment is only valid if your training to shoot paper.
Your missed shots cost you points, our missed shots can cost lives.
So yes, every shot matters to those not just punching paper.
He's teaching people to do things slowly. You don't shoot slowly in a gun fight. You shoot fast. You don't learn to shoot fast by shooting slow. You learn to shoot fast by shooting fast.
Train how you fight.
@@dchil15 I’ve seen plenty of people week after week shoot fast and not hit a damn thing. It’s not as simple as shoot fast or shoot slow. The high speed operator that you obviously are should know that. Likely you were just distracted by the hard on that you seem to have for Travis Haley. It’s okay killer, happens to the best of they/them.
@@notetaking9308 hahaha it’s okay note taker! It’s clear you watch all his videos. Hell, you probably sleep in a Haley Stategic tshirt at night. No shame in that game player. Stay frosty operator.
@@alewis1927 I don't even know who Haley is. I listened to what Ben and Joel were talking about.
And yes, just shooting fast isn't training.
It’s always those who have no basic mechanical understanding that have the most to say about mechanical functions 😂
It isn’t possible for a newer p320 to fire without pressing the trigger. Period
If you have to pay someone to work on your guns for you stop spouting off about how guns work.
Using cop videos to back up your bs.
Most cops don’t shoot their guns more than 1-2x a year
Please explain then. Why were 320’s cooking off rounds without operator input and explain how Sig “fixed” it? Tell me what they changed. Then I’ll explain to you why they were firing by themselves with no input and educate you how their “fix” was a band-aid and not really a fix. Enlighten us.
@@CitizenCarrierclearly you don’t have any kind of mechanical understanding or knowledge of the p320 FCU.
Should probably stay in the car with your opinions until you’ve understood how the p320 FCU functions..
The change sig made was add a disconnecter. You will see a notch cut in the slides for the disco on newer/updated models. The trigger is “disconnected” from the striker when the slide is a few mm out of battery.
This also blocks a lug on the striker.
There is a tiny spring in the striker housing that opposes the striker’s motion forward.
The trigger shoe pivot and how it engages the trigger bar have a different angle now. The trigger bar is also revised.
The sear would have to fail in 2 points AND the striker lug would have to fail to get the striker to drop without a trigger press. Even then there may not be enough mass left in the striker to ignite the primer.
The gun cannot fire without pressing the trigger. Period.
Show me where someone has actually taken a 320 apart that supposedly self discharged and show the fcu/striker… I’ll wait
@@PnP-td1mt You’ll be waiting a long time because absolutely nothing you said and convinced yourself is the problem with why they were popping off is the actual problem. And obviously being a Sig Fanboy has clouded you to learning. You also make a whole lot of assumptions with my mechanical experience or experience with the 320. Do I know anyone that has taken it apart? Yes. Me. Have an nice day fanboy.
@@CitizenCarrierbecause I understand how a p320 FCU works I must be a Sig fanboy? 😆
Now you are just being pathetic. I am an armor with an extensive machining background.
I actually carry staccato’s currently.
You have an opinion based on what exactly? Some stuff you seen on the internet?
You have no first hand knowledge of anything besides some videos you watched online.
The ignorance is well past pathetic.
I’m curious to see what else you invent to justify your opinion…
Literally every single successful modern firearm has been called “unsafe” at some point, which simply is a result of widespread adoption and statistics. 1911’s (Colt Series 80), Glocks (New York trigger), Remington 700, Beretta 92, etc, etc have all been called “unsafe” due to “unintentional discharge” or the gun “going off”. It’s just Sig’s turn in the barrel because of the amount of pistols sold and in service. How many recalls or known defects are present in any modern car, yet we’re all on the interstate running 80 side-by-side. If your Ford, Chevy, Mercedes has a potential safety defect and they issue a recall, you get it fixed and move on. You accept it as part of the circumstances and the equipment. You pays yer money, you takes yer chances.
Side note. TH-cam gave me a drag queen ad for this vid. Skipped it and started it over for a more tasteful ad, still. Yikes..
Travis Haley is taking an awful lot of flak....he must be over the target. These 100 round drills are WARMUPS. And outstanding warmups at that. They are not a full day's practice session. They break down and force one to return to some fundamentals - which degrade rapidy when one is just sprayin and prayin.
In your echo chamber of a corner...
I heard "MAGA-doubles"
How many championships has Haley won come on man.
Travis Haley is an innovator who has been in the sh-t, this channel should be called the we are jealous Travis gets the attention, Stop your B.S. Travis classes are first and foremost to make you think before you act for better outcomes. You guys couldn't carry Travis's canteen