Thank you, Ben! For all you SIg fanboys who disagree let me ask you this. Why is it ONLY the P320 that is having all of these issues? Why isn't it Glock, S&W, Walther, Ruger, etc? It's simply a terrible internal design, period.
Are you familiar with the term glock leg? Lmfao. Dont act like ur born yesterday. There very well might be a problem with the p320s but there have always been controversy with light trigger no manuel safety in your pants😂
I had a long extractor 2014 production P229R. In 3000 rounds, the exact same failure (failure to extract) occurred 26 times with various magazines and different factory ammo. Nothing helped - I installed a new extractor/spring, and even bought a complete replacement slide but the malfunctions still happened. The Sig CS rep told me "oh that's not that many" failures. Well crap, not trusting my life with this then. It is an exercise in frustration to figure out which updates Sig has done to a platform. Got a Glock and never looked back.
I am also predisposed to like Sig. I used to bet my life to Sig. I carried a 226 for years and had a DGU with it. I built out a P320C as a new carry piece. That video has shaken my faith. I like the 320 but I'm not risking my fuckin nutsack. I've since switched to a PDP compact. Sig needs to redesign that pistol.
Has anyone seen these issues come up on the Wilson Combat complete guns? e.i. do they have a "custom" enough of a top end to avoid this stuff or is it inherent to the design?
Are you recalling a certain issue? I know the old generation of the EDC X9 had a small batch of poor heat treatment on their extractors. Haven't heard many issues otherwise. Their AR's have a few negative comments, but I don't know what it was about.
If you own a semi auto hand gun and say I can’t field strip a Glock. I don’t trust you to mow your own lawn. Better way to say I’m not an armorer. Don’t own a sig hand gun btw.
Different internal design. However, I'm taking brand new primed cases only (no powder or bullet) and literally taking a rubber mallet to it to try to see if it will go off.
Its funny how glock had this exact same problem when LE switched. Glock Leg 😂 What gen of Glocks was blowing up at a crazy rate in 40s&w? Which if i remember correctly, could actually be recreated. "I dont know, but muh feelings!" You post about these things like a subject expert, but you cant be bothered to understand how the gun works? Love your videos and Instagram posts. You're a refreshing change from how tactical everyone has got.
I have 4 p320s the original x5 with practice and uspsa matches over 45 000 rds in 4 yrs. 1 new slide and 1 new barrel never has gone bang w/o pulling the trigger. ???? So I don't know how to feel about them. I have 1 p320 legion, 1 p320 RX , 1 p320 compact, 1 original p320 x5
Its sort of like looking at the Boeing 737 Maxes crashing back when that was a thing and going "well, nobody has demonstrated a failure mode which would cause that, so that means the plane is safe". No, the fact that nobody has demonstrated a failure mode which would cause the plane to crash doesnt mean we didnt just watch it crash, it just means we dont know what to fix to make it stop doing that.
I retired my 320 and went back to my 226s. I can't sell it because I don't trust the gun. I can't shoot it because I don't trust the gun. I can't ask Sig to fix it because I don't trust Sig. I could spend a ton of money and end up with a gun I still wouldn't completely trust. I'll save that money and just shoot my 226s and Glocks. The 320 will become a forever safe queen. At least I can trust it there.
I think Sig 320s are especially susceptible to “holstering" issues because they lack a Glock-like trigger safety, so unintentional friction can activate them in oddball situations like that recent incident, maybe especially if the gun was made prior to their "recall" for drop firing issue or whatever that was. P.S. Safariland issued a statement Aug 2021 about one of their duty holsters not properly retaining 320s under certain conditions with some versions of Surefire light attached (“discovered during internal testing”).
So while I agree, my issue is why aren’t we seeing the same issues with p365. They use the basic design internals while not having trigger safety. Why are we not seeing more accidental discharges with the p365?
@@godwinjoy9730 I don’t know that I’ve heard much either, but is there valid data to make any reasonable comparison? And duty weapons are a very different circumstance, particularly law enforcement daily use, which matters a lot in terms of shear numbers of events with the potential for mishaps.
It’s not just the trigger design and/or the holster compatibility alone. But Sig should be more proactive about addressing how their gun’s design contributes to the risk of ADs. There have to be additional variables that align in certain perfect conditions for these things to “go off”. Can be thought of according to the “Swiss cheese model” of accident causation.
I have seen a few out of battery detonations. I own an indoor range. I have not seen any go off on their own. All the ones I have seen have been out of battery blows out mag extractor goes flying slide and frame damage. Maybe the ammo stops the sig from going into battery but the sig fires and sets off the round out of battery.
Sig molded the ejector as part of the FCU frame in the 365 and 320 without making sure there was a consistent over-insertion prevention in place for magazine longer than the gun. If you slam one home on a slidelock reload, you're likely to bend your ejector into non-functionality. Sig will graciously replace it for a nominal fee of $150 though. Such a great design
The ejector is stamped in the 320 and CNCd from billet on the 365, so not sure what you think is molded? Second, the 365 has an over insertion ledge cut into the FCU so the magazine can never hit the ejector. The 320 is definitely an interior design to the 365. I think sig should have moved to a billet FCU on the 320 a long time ago….
Mine blew up. Was blamed on reloads. I was using 700x 4 grains. Double charge over fills the case spills powder, I would have seen this. Yes it could have been a weak case, but what about all the pictures of bulged cases with factory ammo. The gun has way more problems than other guns, has to be a reason.
I shot a USPSA match in a squad with a guy running the 320 and his brass looked weird too. And he was running federal syntech too so not exactly pissin hot hand loads
7:53 In my mind i it’s that way with anything,that’s why I’ve been spreading Matt Pranka and Ben Stoeger as a go to as coaches for shooting, to my LE friends to single dads at the work place they have moral standards. Something I think many young men need to have and these two men and the men they surround themselves with are the modes we need.
I love my X5 Legion, love it! I think it’s the best shooting Handgun I own, even better than some of my custom 1911s but I went out and bought a Shadow 2 and transitioned to the CZ for USPSA not necessarily because of the problems but because Sig has not provided an explanation. If they want to bury their head in the sand, fine but I’ll be shooting my Glocks and CZ from now on.
If you’re worrying about your Sig exploding a gunsmith found the issue. It’s people shooting their guns a hair out of battery. He was able to slightly modify a disconnector to prevent that.
@@MrDoverfield sure maybe that's it, but SIG has just had problem after problem with all of their releases of the last decade, so I would rather just avoid that shit than modify my expensive competition guns because the factory isn't making them right.
@@NFenchak1 according to a gunsmith I know, it’s common for striker fire pistol if you shoot it out of battery. The P320 aftermarket disconnector works similar to the one in the P226 for the people worried about that rare problem. If I not mistaken Glock received a similar accusation in the 90s when several people were getting cracked framed.
I bought a DH3 at a good price and it’s a great shooting gun. That said, you should never invest your ego in any piece of equipment. I’m disturbed by the trend and everyone should strip bias and emotion out of any assessment with a potentially deadly tool.
Just catching up, but I agree. Just because it hasn't been proven in court, means nothing. (And I saw this as a civil trial attorney). The way you keep something from being "proven in court" is to settle the case before it goes to trial and insist on a confidentiality agreement with the plaintiff. Example for those old enough to remember, back in the day, the Ford Pinto had a reputation for being a gasoline bomb if struck from behind. The Chevrolet Vega had the same problem, but Chevy, unlike Ford, settled all the cases before trial.
Sig is a junk company. They used to be my favorite when I first started getting into guns around 2010. I think 4 of my first 6 handguns were Sigs, 2 of them being West German. But since then they’ve steadily been getting worse at design and QC every year. It’s no longer a top-tier company, but they still command top-tier prices. Most of their competitors are not just better, but cheaper when you compare apples to apples.
Its almost impossible for a malfunction to happen by means on something inside the holster. That can only happen if there is no trigger guard on the gun. The trigger guard enters the holster first and if something was inside it will jam on the trigger guard first and not even get to the trigger. "Holster malfunctions" are due to user error and having finger on trigger when holstering. Guns going off inside a holster is most def a sig320 problem only
Who knows what’s really going on but there sure is a lot of smoke. I’ve been heavily invested in Glocks for over 15 years so the 320 never really appealed to me. There wasn’t a problem that the 320 was solving, FOR ME, that was worth transitioning to a new platform.
If the defence is, its not proven in court, ok. But its proven in real world, so what! Holy shi. It just blows my mind. Arrogant MFs. We all know why SIG is defending their position with any means it may be. We are talking huge money loss. I would go as far to say, maybe the end of SIG.
*I agree with your sentiment, in part.* Let's put YOU in the position of Sig. Most people don't know how to see themselves in others positions. Let's say it's any other type of product you make, in another industry. You spent your life making it, perfecting it, bringing it to market, and 0.01% of the users, are dumbasses that hurt themselves or others with YOUR PRODUCT. They are using it in an unsafe, unapproved manner. They take you to court to try to take all your money. Because, remember, we do not live in a 'measured' world anymore, people are greedy. They are trying to shut you down, take all your money, and make you and your family homeless. You go through years of court, you are proven innocent to their claims. And some a-hole in the comment section of a video site says: *"But its proven in real world, so what! Holy shi. It just blows my mind. Arrogant MFs."*
Being a blind fanboy of any brand unless they have done something personally for me or put money in my pocket is dumb. I pay them. They work for me. It’s not the other way around.
Oooooooh I LOVE equipment opinion videos and the subsequent butthurt that follows. I pretty much exclusively run Glock but people are welcome to trash them all they like. I care not for the opinions of people I don't know. If a guy shooting 40k+ rounds a year says they are garbage, then my ears perk up some. I like Glock pistols, I shoot them well, they've been proven to be reliable if you don't fuck with them. That being said, I hate Glock as a company. I mean I absolutely hate Glock as a company. I'm too invested to stop using them now though.
Although not a SIG, I had a 2011 that was on safe after being placed down and facing down range discharge. No one was near it, and it never happened again. I’m not saying it’s a common thing, I have hundreds of thousands of rounds through 19/2011 type firearms, and many more I’ve seen fired, but it proved to me that a gun can fire on it’s own, though very rare. It spooked me enough to switch to a Glock for 3-gun. I have never owned a Sig, But when the first reports came out about 320s firing on their own, I looked at the internals to understand the design and what might be a contributing factor. I feel like I was able to immediately identify at least something that can contribute to this happening. Unlike a Glock, the Sig 320 doesn’t complete the tensioning of the striker spring by the action of the trigger pull. It’s fully cocked by cycling the slide and remains fully cocked even with no rearward pressure on the trigger. Since the striker is preloaded with enough mechanical energy to set off a primer, this leaves the striker block as the only thing to prevent a discharge if the sear fails. I can see that that is highly unlikely to happen, but with so many 320s, if it’s possible, it’s going to happen.
Yes, I’ve come to the conclusion that these designs are only safe with a manual safety. No one would carry a 1911 cocked and UNLOCKED! Why would you do it with a fully cocked striker?
@@SnapD24 Agreed. The fire control design lends itself to a better trigger pull, Walther and others have used a functionally identical design in their firearms without issue. It’s only problematic if another or multiple other safety features fail. The original Glock design had many redundancies that the newer designs are eliminating. Even Glock is mimicking the P320 fire control design in their new “enhanced” trigger.
320 have been one of the best feeling and capable shooting guns in my hands the few times I’ve shot them but ever since dropgate I’ve written off all Sig guns, been tempted a few times - glad I’ve held off on purchasing any. They are great shooters though.
I work with a buddy and he is Sig all the way. Like you said he gets emotional and has every excuse why this is happening. What is funny to me is why is it only happening to Sigs at such a high rate. No one knows. 🤷🏻♂️
I wonder how much of this issue is caused by what I call "PSA syndrome", basically them having so many SKUs and contracts causing QC issues. I hope they can fix it.
Except PSA is at a much larger scale, often times with PSA the qc issues arise from other companies making their guns, for a long period aero was making the PSA lowers
People with zero mechanical understanding spouting off problems.. The actual mechanical engineers and engineers in the gun industry say a 320 can’t go off without a trigger press
Bruce Gray's behavior during all this has been disappointing. "Nobody has demonstrated a failure mechanism of the P320," is a really weird position to take for a mechanically minded guy. If you're a mechanically minded guy (aka, nerd) you KNOW that weird shit that doesn't make sense is guaranteed to happen regardless of whether or not you have a theory as to why it's happening. There IS something up with the 320. The people who are running around telling everyone there's no problem with the 320 are telling me a lot more about themselves and SIG than they are the 320.
*Here's the funny thing about testing to failure. Failure always happens.* I used to do pentesting for software and online sites. I'd usually get in within a minute or two, using some old exploit they hadn't heard of, and had basically "gone away" but was still in play. I recently played this AI game, an "AI exploit game" and got through all of its levels in a couple hours. Apparently some people can't get past level 5. Point I am making is... EVERYTHING has a vulnerability, you absolutely cannot test to every scenario because that's an asymptote. And it appears the P320 issue is a new scenario that was somewhere down the long-tail. The long tail is long that's why it's called that. That is what insurance is for. Cannot predict everything, cannot test to the end of everything. *Most telling aspect is... did the DOJ-Certified Labs change their drop test protocol, or not?*
I saw the early promo for the 320 pistols and i was stoked! I still dont own a 320 as all the stories made me balk. I do own 3 Sig Pistols, one 0365 X and 2 P226 !
Sigs plastic guns are trash. Had 2 p320s and a 365. Never again. Both my 320s triggers started having issues between 7-9000 rounds. Started turning really mushy. My 365 broke the stryker. I’ve shot the piss out of Glocks CZ and Hk with nowhere near the issues my sigs had. Now sig does make a hell of a metal gun. The 229 I have is like a Cadillac of pistols.
As a former military cop, who carried a loaded duty weapon every shift (M9), I may be a little bit more passionate about military sidearms than other military members who who also may be issued them. For military cops their sidearm is literally day in and out a tool that they may have to defend others or their lives with THAT SHIFT. Because of this, I was extremely disappointed to hear that Sig was selected as the new military sidearm based on price point and not necessarily merit. This descision seems even more of egregious when considering the rumor that Glock actually won, despite a sweetheart RFP that favored Sigs novel new platform, seemingly having been purposely written guarantee Sig the win from the outset. It is unfathomable to me that the Sig design was chosen to replace the Service pistol lineage of the 1911, Beretta M9 and the possibility presented by the Glock, which, as a reminder, had already been proven iover a couple of decades in combat with special forces units. Why the military selected a design completely new, not just to the manufacturer, but to THE WORLD, is absurd and clearly displays the corporatism that has infected our government. Well, I hate that our service members are stuck with this piece of junk and also I am extremely dismayed for anyone injured, hurt, or worse by this product, I am otherwise gleeful each and every time I hear about one of these events regarding this abomination of a pistol. It is the deserved outcome of the adage that you "get what you pay for."
I think there is the possibility of tolerance stacking causing issues with individual guns. The striker design and firing pin block are unicorn designs d/t it being a retrofit of the p250, so they are not using the proven designs almost everyone else is. The p365 is a more conventional design. If nothing else, I see the p320s malf more than others.
I like the fact that you don't claim to know everything and adjust your opinions accordingly. We need more people like you who speak facts instead of defending Sig 24/7. I dont understand the brand loyalty thing either.
My theory is that it’s a metallurgy problem. These can be difficult to diagnose. Sig gets parts from vendors. Are those parts made as per the required specs.? Does Sig call out hardness of material? Does Sig QC the parts prior to assembly and shipping out. Not the gun but the parts before it’s called a gun? Too many other good options over a Sig.
I may not always agree with Ben's or XA's delivery, but both of them have pushed discussion that needs to be had. To any detractors, show me the lie? Seems that the only influencers that are speaking positively about Sig products at this point are sponsored by Sig and all of these points seem valid.
Team Glock uses modified Glocks. When Glocks got adopted people were having several issues frames cracking and several ND because of its unsafe design. I guess Glocks are also trash using Ben Stoegers logic
You are being intentionally deceitful and you know it. Sig has more issues with ONE product release than Glock has over their entire history since the 80's. And a bunch of idiots NDing into their leg because they don't understand how the gun works isn't a mark against Glock.
Why should I apologize for being a sig hater? Has sig apologized for MAKING me a sig hater? The glock example you gave is excellent and the recent issue with the PDP was addressed directly by Walther. Curious isn't it?
@@KnifeNinjaEDC no he’s more a revolver fan. He said if there’s a confirmed issue with the P320 he’s going to drag Sigs name in mud. I believe him because a fan of his told him his bad experiences with Smith and Wesson(his favorite gun company) customer support and did put them full blast for not doing better.
I would agree that they are firing out of battery with stock slides I have seen way too much of that for me to be able to blame the ammo at this point as well.. In regards to going off uncommanded, I don’t think it’s rational to reason that the gun is cooking off a round without the trigger being pulled which would absolutely require the gun to have a mechanical issue for this to happen this much has to be true. So the question becomes, how is it possible for all these guns to be going off on their own yet when they take that exact gun recreate or even point to what is wrong with the gun they have magically fixed themselves. On top of the actual guns that have “gone off on their own” never doing it again in a controlled setting, you have countless people out there looking to be the one to crack the code and be able to point to a definitive problem yet nobody has been able to do so for SIX YEARS! That is a hell of a long time for be looking for a problem and come up empty handed if you ask me.. So at what point will people be willing to admit the guns have withstood the test of time? 10 years? 15? 20? For me that time has already come and gone but I feel like for some people it could go on like this forever and they will still never believe they aren’t going off on their own and IMO that is a joke.. So what would you say, how long is a long enough time of nobody being able to point to a specific issue where you have to give the gun the benefit of the doubt??
Concerning misfiring, in engineering there is something called corner cases. This can be an aggregation or combination of part tolerances, ammo, external stresses, etc. that can lead to unwanted failures/results. Corner cases can also develop with wear and tear due to changing part tolerances. Corner cases should not happen at all and if they do occur, it should be a very rare instance. Corner cases can be difficult to model and detect. It would be good for Sig to chime in and share the experiments, tests, modeling, etc. they have performed to diagnose the problem.
@@SnapD24 Depending on the product, it is typically difficult to produce sufficient corner case samples to make a significant statistical sample for product testing. Sig is the expert. Have they said anything on the matter?
Everyone knows the Glock 19x should have won the military contract. Part of getting the contract was you had to manufacturer your own ammo also and Glock doesn't.
Well it was cheaper for them to get a 320 than it is for us to buy a hi-point! I don't like supporting companies that charge the feds next to nothing, and make up for it by selling to citizens at 5 or 6x the price.
"Which" P320s are problematic? There are lots of different P320's -- Nitron, M18, XFIVE, AXG, SPECTRE, XTEN. For those who have been following the specific cases, are ALL of these models problematic? Are some of the models, like the XFIVE Legion, safer than others? Thanks for any insights!
I’ve seen an X5 blow out with someone’s hand loads . Lots of brands of guns have exploded from overcharged reloads or squibs from underpowered loads . Crappy discount bulk reloads can cause problems too . If Sig’s are actually having issues with quality factory ammo that’s concerning but not something that I’ve ever heard of .
One comment you made stuck out . Would love more context on the comment about not being comfortable firing a M18. I think it is important because too many people are saying “oh the M17/M18 have a manual safety, they are GTG”.
Judging by the fact that both p320 and m17/m18 shares internal parts, m17/m18 has no trigger safety then holstering it with chambered round and with safety off may cause same problem like with p320
The problem is SIG is so oblique about these issues, nobody really knows all the facts. And by facts, I mean what is actually happening when they discharge? The argument for the external safety versions starts from an unproven assumption. Then when you toss in the KB’s with factory ammo, it doesn’t give me the warm and fuzzies with the M17-18 either.
@@John1911 Stephen from ProTEQ suggested that lack of trigger safety and little tension on it from holster may cause the problem but we can't be sure because SIG gave a statement that states nothing.
@@przemekchmielewski2137 Any conversation about this particular incident needs to acknowledge that one, none of us have this particular gun in hand. And two, none of us have this particular holster either. The public statement that SIG released saying the PD wouldn’t give them the gun is not the end of the investigation. In reality, this is an OIS. Will likely be investigated by the PD in question. The sheriff of the county in which they reside. Or the state bureau of investigation. SIG didn’t get this gun because it’s evidence. Maybe they will get access to it later at some point through official channels? But just like the assumptions about the thumb safety, a lot of the people assuming this evidence is off the table are hanging in the breeze. The civil suit alone by some ambulance chaser lawyer demands they hold and secure the evidence. But “gun guys” are mostly blind to the real world.
What I think Ben meant by that was that though there haven't been any reports of the M17/18 firing uncommanded in military use, the fact that he's seen so many P320s blow up with the frames cracking and them firing out of battery, etc. is, understandably, what makes him weary of shooting the M18. Then there's also the fact that those pistols aren't the most pleasant to shoot with 9mm NATO. I mean if gamers' minor loads are blowing up P320s, what more for spicy 9mm NATO in the M17/18... If these guns are as much as a disaster people make them out to be, the problem should reveal itself in a big way while in military service. Hoping no on gets hurt.
Being a casual shooter I just can't afford trouble like this. No Sigs, no Shield Arms Magazines, no high speed aftermarket triggers.
Torsion from a holster causing a discharge is wild
People get very sensitive about the stuff they spent money on. They’re not just invested monetarily, but emotionally.
Thank you, Ben! For all you SIg fanboys who disagree let me ask you this. Why is it ONLY the P320 that is having all of these issues? Why isn't it Glock, S&W, Walther, Ruger, etc? It's simply a terrible internal design, period.
Are you familiar with the term glock leg? Lmfao. Dont act like ur born yesterday. There very well might be a problem with the p320s but there have always been controversy with light trigger no manuel safety in your pants😂
I had a long extractor 2014 production P229R. In 3000 rounds, the exact same failure (failure to extract) occurred 26 times with various magazines and different factory ammo. Nothing helped - I installed a new extractor/spring, and even bought a complete replacement slide but the malfunctions still happened. The Sig CS rep told me "oh that's not that many" failures. Well crap, not trusting my life with this then. It is an exercise in frustration to figure out which updates Sig has done to a platform. Got a Glock and never looked back.
I am also predisposed to like Sig. I used to bet my life to Sig. I carried a 226 for years and had a DGU with it. I built out a P320C as a new carry piece. That video has shaken my faith. I like the 320 but I'm not risking my fuckin nutsack. I've since switched to a PDP compact. Sig needs to redesign that pistol.
To the uninitiated, you've probably not considered the post deskpop holstered cook-off theory.
Had a couple sold both, wanted to like them just didn’t suit me. Too many issues people have reported from good sources. To each their own
I have personally seen 1 blow up in a match...
same here
Has anyone seen these issues come up on the Wilson Combat complete guns? e.i. do they have a "custom" enough of a top end to avoid this stuff or is it inherent to the design?
Are you recalling a certain issue? I know the old generation of the EDC X9 had a small batch of poor heat treatment on their extractors. Haven't heard many issues otherwise. Their AR's have a few negative comments, but I don't know what it was about.
@@Sercer25 I'm referencing the WCP320 and if it has the same issues a factory P320.
@@wild_reviews8789 Ahh gotcha. Thanks.
But people who own Glocks usually change everything as well….
If you own a semi auto hand gun and say I can’t field strip a Glock. I don’t trust you to mow your own lawn. Better way to say I’m not an armorer. Don’t own a sig hand gun btw.
I don't know....... but I know.....😂can generate lots of youtube traffic from both sides
Any chance the p365 has the same issues as the p320?
Different internal design. However, I'm taking brand new primed cases only (no powder or bullet) and literally taking a rubber mallet to it to try to see if it will go off.
The end user shouldn't be required to reverse engineer shit and tell the manufacturer how to fix it
Its funny how glock had this exact same problem when LE switched.
Glock Leg 😂
What gen of Glocks was blowing up at a crazy rate in 40s&w? Which if i remember correctly, could actually be recreated.
"I dont know, but muh feelings!" You post about these things like a subject expert, but you cant be bothered to understand how the gun works?
Love your videos and Instagram posts.
You're a refreshing change from how tactical everyone has got.
I have 4 p320s the original x5 with practice and uspsa matches over 45 000 rds in 4 yrs. 1 new slide and 1 new barrel never has gone bang w/o pulling the trigger. ???? So I don't know how to feel about them. I have 1 p320 legion, 1 p320 RX , 1 p320 compact, 1 original p320 x5
Sigs are sentient and can feel your vibes, which is why they go off in holsters. Watch out guys.
Its sort of like looking at the Boeing 737 Maxes crashing back when that was a thing and going "well, nobody has demonstrated a failure mode which would cause that, so that means the plane is safe".
No, the fact that nobody has demonstrated a failure mode which would cause the plane to crash doesnt mean we didnt just watch it crash, it just means we dont know what to fix to make it stop doing that.
Sig has treated their loyal customers as beta testers for years this is nothing new. Will people learn and stop supporting them? Not likely.
I retired my 320 and went back to my 226s. I can't sell it because I don't trust the gun. I can't shoot it because I don't trust the gun. I can't ask Sig to fix it because I don't trust Sig. I could spend a ton of money and end up with a gun I still wouldn't completely trust. I'll save that money and just shoot my 226s and Glocks. The 320 will become a forever safe queen. At least I can trust it there.
We see same shit in classes and people get so butt hurt because they spent a bunch of money and are embarrassed to admit it has an issue
I think Sig 320s are especially susceptible to “holstering" issues because they lack a Glock-like trigger safety, so unintentional friction can activate them in oddball situations like that recent incident, maybe especially if the gun was made prior to their "recall" for drop firing issue or whatever that was. P.S. Safariland issued a statement Aug 2021 about one of their duty holsters not properly retaining 320s under certain conditions with some versions of Surefire light attached (“discovered during internal testing”).
So while I agree, my issue is why aren’t we seeing the same issues with p365. They use the basic design internals while not having trigger safety. Why are we not seeing more accidental discharges with the p365?
@@godwinjoy9730 I don’t know that I’ve heard much either, but is there valid data to make any reasonable comparison? And duty weapons are a very different circumstance, particularly law enforcement daily use, which matters a lot in terms of shear numbers of events with the potential for mishaps.
@@godwinjoy9730 Most people carry appendix probably with 365. The OWB holstering is what seems to occur just before an ND with the 320.
It’s not just the trigger design and/or the holster compatibility alone. But Sig should be more proactive about addressing how their gun’s design contributes to the risk of ADs. There have to be additional variables that align in certain perfect conditions for these things to “go off”. Can be thought of according to the “Swiss cheese model” of accident causation.
No if something gets stuck in the holster even Glocks can go off.
I have seen a few out of battery detonations. I own an indoor range. I have not seen any go off on their own. All the ones I have seen have been out of battery blows out mag extractor goes flying slide and frame damage. Maybe the ammo stops the sig from going into battery but the sig fires and sets off the round out of battery.
Sig molded the ejector as part of the FCU frame in the 365 and 320 without making sure there was a consistent over-insertion prevention in place for magazine longer than the gun. If you slam one home on a slidelock reload, you're likely to bend your ejector into non-functionality. Sig will graciously replace it for a nominal fee of $150 though. Such a great design
The ejector is stamped in the 320 and CNCd from billet on the 365, so not sure what you think is molded? Second, the 365 has an over insertion ledge cut into the FCU so the magazine can never hit the ejector. The 320 is definitely an interior design to the 365. I think sig should have moved to a billet FCU on the 320 a long time ago….
the magazine release stops it from doing it....mindblowing right?🤯
Happened 2x with a new X5 Legion..most idiotic design i have seen
@@jasonglasky7790you can override the mag release if you insert hard enough.
Source?
Mine blew up. Was blamed on reloads. I was using 700x 4 grains. Double charge over fills the case spills powder, I would have seen this. Yes it could have been a weak case, but what about all the pictures of bulged cases with factory ammo. The gun has way more problems than other guns, has to be a reason.
Still have the gun?
I shot a USPSA match in a squad with a guy running the 320 and his brass looked weird too. And he was running federal syntech too so not exactly pissin hot hand loads
@@m4rvinmartian No. Fixed it sold it, will never own a plastic competition gun again
7:53 In my mind i it’s that way with anything,that’s why I’ve been spreading Matt Pranka and Ben Stoeger as a go to as coaches for shooting, to my LE friends to single dads at the work place they have moral standards. Something I think many young men need to have and these two men and the men they surround themselves with are the modes we need.
I love my X5 Legion, love it! I think it’s the best shooting Handgun I own, even better than some of my custom 1911s but I went out and bought a Shadow 2 and transitioned to the CZ for USPSA not necessarily because of the problems but because Sig has not provided an explanation. If they want to bury their head in the sand, fine but I’ll be shooting my Glocks and CZ from now on.
Same. Sold my two Legions. Bought a Glock 34.
If you’re worrying about your Sig exploding a gunsmith found the issue. It’s people shooting their guns a hair out of battery. He was able to slightly modify a disconnector to prevent that.
@@MrDoverfield Link, info? Moar?
@@MrDoverfield sure maybe that's it, but SIG has just had problem after problem with all of their releases of the last decade, so I would rather just avoid that shit than modify my expensive competition guns because the factory isn't making them right.
@@NFenchak1 according to a gunsmith I know, it’s common for striker fire pistol if you shoot it out of battery. The P320 aftermarket disconnector works similar to the one in the P226 for the people worried about that rare problem. If I not mistaken Glock received a similar accusation in the 90s when several people were getting cracked framed.
I bought a DH3 at a good price and it’s a great shooting gun. That said, you should never invest your ego in any piece of equipment. I’m disturbed by the trend and everyone should strip bias and emotion out of any assessment with a potentially deadly tool.
Just catching up, but I agree. Just because it hasn't been proven in court, means nothing. (And I saw this as a civil trial attorney). The way you keep something from being "proven in court" is to settle the case before it goes to trial and insist on a confidentiality agreement with the plaintiff.
Example for those old enough to remember, back in the day, the Ford Pinto had a reputation for being a gasoline bomb if struck from behind. The Chevrolet Vega had the same problem, but Chevy, unlike Ford, settled all the cases before trial.
🇺🇸
You're gonna discourage people from buying Sigs right???
Sig is a junk company. They used to be my favorite when I first started getting into guns around 2010. I think 4 of my first 6 handguns were Sigs, 2 of them being West German. But since then they’ve steadily been getting worse at design and QC every year. It’s no longer a top-tier company, but they still command top-tier prices. Most of their competitors are not just better, but cheaper when you compare apples to apples.
Its almost impossible for a malfunction to happen by means on something inside the holster. That can only happen if there is no trigger guard on the gun. The trigger guard enters the holster first and if something was inside it will jam on the trigger guard first and not even get to the trigger. "Holster malfunctions" are due to user error and having finger on trigger when holstering. Guns going off inside a holster is most def a sig320 problem only
I hear the marching of pitch forks and torches coming for you LOL
Who knows what’s really going on but there sure is a lot of smoke. I’ve been heavily invested in Glocks for over 15 years so the 320 never really appealed to me. There wasn’t a problem that the 320 was solving, FOR ME, that was worth transitioning to a new platform.
Guns going off “on their own” and AI coming out around the same time.. coincidence? I think not.
If the defence is, its not proven in court, ok. But its proven in real world, so what! Holy shi. It just blows my mind. Arrogant MFs.
We all know why SIG is defending their position with any means it may be. We are talking huge money loss. I would go as far to say, maybe the end of SIG.
*I agree with your sentiment, in part.*
Let's put YOU in the position of Sig. Most people don't know how to see themselves in others positions.
Let's say it's any other type of product you make, in another industry.
You spent your life making it, perfecting it, bringing it to market, and 0.01% of the users, are dumbasses that hurt themselves or others with YOUR PRODUCT.
They are using it in an unsafe, unapproved manner. They take you to court to try to take all your money. Because, remember, we do not live in a 'measured' world anymore, people are greedy. They are trying to shut you down, take all your money, and make you and your family homeless.
You go through years of court, you are proven innocent to their claims.
And some a-hole in the comment section of a video site says:
*"But its proven in real world, so what! Holy shi. It just blows my mind. Arrogant MFs."*
@@m4rvinmartian I agree. A flawed person is the same as a flawed product. 🤯 Come on.
@@bestoftheYT I hope it never happens to you. But from your sentiment I can tell you produce nothing, so it won't.
@@m4rvinmartian does your crystal ball have any advice on what Powerball numbers to play. 😂😂😂
Being a blind fanboy of any brand unless they have done something personally for me or put money in my pocket is dumb. I pay them. They work for me. It’s not the other way around.
Oooooooh I LOVE equipment opinion videos and the subsequent butthurt that follows. I pretty much exclusively run Glock but people are welcome to trash them all they like. I care not for the opinions of people I don't know. If a guy shooting 40k+ rounds a year says they are garbage, then my ears perk up some. I like Glock pistols, I shoot them well, they've been proven to be reliable if you don't fuck with them. That being said, I hate Glock as a company. I mean I absolutely hate Glock as a company. I'm too invested to stop using them now though.
Sig def has an incentive to lie about their product when there's millions (billions?) of dollars at stake in their Mil contracts.
Were the failures in the Model 320?
Note how you dont see CZs blowing up or going off unintentionally
Nothing gets a reputation for no reason.
Although not a SIG, I had a 2011 that was on safe after being placed down and facing down range discharge. No one was near it, and it never happened again. I’m not saying it’s a common thing, I have hundreds of thousands of rounds through 19/2011 type firearms, and many more I’ve seen fired, but it proved to me that a gun can fire on it’s own, though very rare. It spooked me enough to switch to a Glock for 3-gun.
I have never owned a Sig, But when the first reports came out about 320s firing on their own, I looked at the internals to understand the design and what might be a contributing factor. I feel like I was able to immediately identify at least something that can contribute to this happening. Unlike a Glock, the Sig 320 doesn’t complete the tensioning of the striker spring by the action of the trigger pull. It’s fully cocked by cycling the slide and remains fully cocked even with no rearward pressure on the trigger. Since the striker is preloaded with enough mechanical energy to set off a primer, this leaves the striker block as the only thing to prevent a discharge if the sear fails. I can see that that is highly unlikely to happen, but with so many 320s, if it’s possible, it’s going to happen.
Yes, I’ve come to the conclusion that these designs are only safe with a manual safety. No one would carry a 1911 cocked and UNLOCKED! Why would you do it with a fully cocked striker?
That's something their engineers and gunsmiths should already know though.
@@SnapD24 Agreed. The fire control design lends itself to a better trigger pull, Walther and others have used a functionally identical design in their firearms without issue. It’s only problematic if another or multiple other safety features fail. The original Glock design had many redundancies that the newer designs are eliminating. Even Glock is mimicking the P320 fire control design in their new “enhanced” trigger.
320 have been one of the best feeling and capable shooting guns in my hands the few times I’ve shot them but ever since dropgate I’ve written off all Sig guns, been tempted a few times - glad I’ve held off on purchasing any. They are great shooters though.
Always been a Walther fan and now that they've fixed the slight slide compression deactivating trigger 'feature' I'm all in
I work with a buddy and he is Sig all the way. Like you said he gets emotional and has every excuse why this is happening. What is funny to me is why is it only happening to Sigs at such a high rate. No one knows. 🤷🏻♂️
I wonder how much of this issue is caused by what I call "PSA syndrome", basically them having so many SKUs and contracts causing QC issues. I hope they can fix it.
*QC is an interesting thing. Why spend money on people to make sure your product is good, when the consumer will do?*
@@m4rvinmartian You think they actually improve their QC after a while?
Except PSA is at a much larger scale, often times with PSA the qc issues arise from other companies making their guns, for a long period aero was making the PSA lowers
I don't think that's it. Sig has had QC issues predating then gaining all of these new US military contracts. This is just SOP for Sig.
Seen any issues with the P365?
People with zero mechanical understanding spouting off problems..
The actual mechanical engineers and engineers in the gun industry say a 320 can’t go off without a trigger press
Sig. the Foreign Trojan Horse Gun Company. Hey America? Maybe don’t put all your Military Guns in one company?
It’s the manual safety, M17/M18 is very reliable, not P320 without manual safety…
Bruce Gray's behavior during all this has been disappointing. "Nobody has demonstrated a failure mechanism of the P320," is a really weird position to take for a mechanically minded guy. If you're a mechanically minded guy (aka, nerd) you KNOW that weird shit that doesn't make sense is guaranteed to happen regardless of whether or not you have a theory as to why it's happening.
There IS something up with the 320. The people who are running around telling everyone there's no problem with the 320 are telling me a lot more about themselves and SIG than they are the 320.
Didn't someone literally prove you can outrun the gun in a very specific instance resulting in a OoB? I swear there was a video.
*Here's the funny thing about testing to failure. Failure always happens.*
I used to do pentesting for software and online sites. I'd usually get in within a minute or two, using some old exploit they hadn't heard of, and had basically "gone away" but was still in play.
I recently played this AI game, an "AI exploit game" and got through all of its levels in a couple hours. Apparently some people can't get past level 5.
Point I am making is... EVERYTHING has a vulnerability, you absolutely cannot test to every scenario because that's an asymptote. And it appears the P320 issue is a new scenario that was somewhere down the long-tail. The long tail is long that's why it's called that. That is what insurance is for. Cannot predict everything, cannot test to the end of everything.
*Most telling aspect is... did the DOJ-Certified Labs change their drop test protocol, or not?*
I saw the early promo for the 320 pistols and i was stoked! I still dont own a 320 as all the stories made me balk. I do own 3 Sig Pistols, one 0365 X and 2 P226 !
#signade
I didn’t know sigs blowing up was a thing.
Sigs plastic guns are trash. Had 2 p320s and a 365. Never again. Both my 320s triggers started having issues between 7-9000 rounds. Started turning really mushy. My 365 broke the stryker. I’ve shot the piss out of Glocks CZ and Hk with nowhere near the issues my sigs had. Now sig does make a hell of a metal gun. The 229 I have is like a Cadillac of pistols.
I almost wanna go back to a 229. That thing is perfect
Ben do you still like and recommend stock IIs?
Agree with this 100 percent
As a former military cop, who carried a loaded duty weapon every shift (M9), I may be a little bit more passionate about military sidearms than other military members who who also may be issued them. For military cops their sidearm is literally day in and out a tool that they may have to defend others or their lives with THAT SHIFT.
Because of this, I was extremely disappointed to hear that Sig was selected as the new military sidearm based on price point and not necessarily merit. This descision seems even more of egregious when considering the rumor that Glock actually won, despite a sweetheart RFP that favored Sigs novel new platform, seemingly having been purposely written guarantee Sig the win from the outset.
It is unfathomable to me that the Sig design was chosen to replace the Service pistol lineage of the 1911, Beretta M9 and the possibility presented by the Glock, which, as a reminder, had already been proven iover a couple of decades in combat with special forces units. Why the military selected a design completely new, not just to the manufacturer, but to THE WORLD, is absurd and clearly displays the corporatism that has infected our government.
Well, I hate that our service members are stuck with this piece of junk and also I am extremely dismayed for anyone injured, hurt, or worse by this product, I am otherwise gleeful each and every time I hear about one of these events regarding this abomination of a pistol. It is the deserved outcome of the adage that you "get what you pay for."
💯
I think there is the possibility of tolerance stacking causing issues with individual guns. The striker design and firing pin block are unicorn designs d/t it being a retrofit of the p250, so they are not using the proven designs almost everyone else is. The p365 is a more conventional design. If nothing else, I see the p320s malf more than others.
Sigs response is "not ahh"
I like the fact that you don't claim to know everything and adjust your opinions accordingly. We need more people like you who speak facts instead of defending Sig 24/7. I dont understand the brand loyalty thing either.
My theory is that it’s a metallurgy problem. These can be difficult to diagnose. Sig gets parts from vendors. Are those parts made as per the required specs.? Does Sig call out hardness of material? Does Sig QC the parts prior to assembly and shipping out. Not the gun but the parts before it’s called a gun? Too many other good options over a Sig.
Realness and honesty is king and that’s why I respect Ben.
I may not always agree with Ben's or XA's delivery, but both of them have pushed discussion that needs to be had. To any detractors, show me the lie? Seems that the only influencers that are speaking positively about Sig products at this point are sponsored by Sig and all of these points seem valid.
Team Glock uses modified Glocks. When Glocks got adopted people were having several issues frames cracking and several ND because of its unsafe design. I guess Glocks are also trash using Ben Stoegers logic
Shhh, quit pointing out facts in a post-fact world.
That’s not the case with glock anymore. People are putting tens of thousands of rounds through the same slides and doing fine.
@@georgekromidas5097 Glock just had more time and the benefit of the doubt
You are being intentionally deceitful and you know it. Sig has more issues with ONE product release than Glock has over their entire history since the 80's. And a bunch of idiots NDing into their leg because they don't understand how the gun works isn't a mark against Glock.
Why should I apologize for being a sig hater? Has sig apologized for MAKING me a sig hater? The glock example you gave is excellent and the recent issue with the PDP was addressed directly by Walther. Curious isn't it?
IIRC, the ceo of sig is a member of the tiny hat club.
@BenStoeger187 The Yankee Marshal issued a challenge to discuss the P320
Nobody cares what that idiot has to say
You can post YT links in comments btw.
@@m4rvinmartian it was on his Monday livestream. I only clipped the part about the challenge
I’m not a sig fan or hater. I’m indifferent but that dude has a hard on for Sig. he knows as much as we all do. But people seem to lap his crap up
@@KnifeNinjaEDC no he’s more a revolver fan. He said if there’s a confirmed issue with the P320 he’s going to drag Sigs name in mud. I believe him because a fan of his told him his bad experiences with Smith and Wesson(his favorite gun company) customer support and did put them full blast for not doing better.
I would agree that they are firing out of battery with stock slides I have seen way too much of that for me to be able to blame the ammo at this point as well.. In regards to going off uncommanded, I don’t think it’s rational to reason that the gun is cooking off a round without the trigger being pulled which would absolutely require the gun to have a mechanical issue for this to happen this much has to be true. So the question becomes, how is it possible for all these guns to be going off on their own yet when they take that exact gun recreate or even point to what is wrong with the gun they have magically fixed themselves. On top of the actual guns that have “gone off on their own” never doing it again in a controlled setting, you have countless people out there looking to be the one to crack the code and be able to point to a definitive problem yet nobody has been able to do so for SIX YEARS! That is a hell of a long time for be looking for a problem and come up empty handed if you ask me.. So at what point will people be willing to admit the guns have withstood the test of time? 10 years? 15? 20? For me that time has already come and gone but I feel like for some people it could go on like this forever and they will still never believe they aren’t going off on their own and IMO that is a joke.. So what would you say, how long is a long enough time of nobody being able to point to a specific issue where you have to give the gun the benefit of the doubt??
Just like the gun was drop safe on release?
@@SnapD24 don’t think anybody is saying it was lmao.. great point 🤭🤤🥴
Concerning misfiring, in engineering there is something called corner cases. This can be an aggregation or combination of part tolerances, ammo, external stresses, etc. that can lead to unwanted failures/results. Corner cases can also develop with wear and tear due to changing part tolerances. Corner cases should not happen at all and if they do occur, it should be a very rare instance.
Corner cases can be difficult to model and detect. It would be good for Sig to chime in and share the experiments, tests, modeling, etc. they have performed to diagnose the problem.
That's what product testing is for.
@@SnapD24 Depending on the product, it is typically difficult to produce sufficient corner case samples to make a significant statistical sample for product testing.
Sig is the expert. Have they said anything on the matter?
Ask anyone in the Army... those 320s are bigger pieces of trash than the Berettas were.
Everyone knows the Glock 19x should have won the military contract. Part of getting the contract was you had to manufacturer your own ammo also and Glock doesn't.
Well it was cheaper for them to get a 320 than it is for us to buy a hi-point! I don't like supporting companies that charge the feds next to nothing, and make up for it by selling to citizens at 5 or 6x the price.
I have several of the 320... I do agree with you but I'll keep shooting mine. Will you still allow them in your classes?
I definitely think Sig needs to have a trigger that provides a safety I’ve actually always thought that about Sig Pistols.
At the very least a manual safety option on all their 320 line. I have one on my 365x.
Cheap aftermarket part to add to it. I hate dangle triggers personally, and I think Sig knows most people do.
I agree. I don’t like those triggers either. But a nice safety feature without a manual safety.
"Which" P320s are problematic? There are lots of different P320's -- Nitron, M18, XFIVE, AXG, SPECTRE, XTEN. For those who have been following the specific cases, are ALL of these models problematic? Are some of the models, like the XFIVE Legion, safer than others? Thanks for any insights!
It’s likely stemming from the FCU which is the same on all to my understanding
Thank you for the info and honesty.
Agree
I’ve seen an X5 blow out with someone’s hand loads . Lots of brands of guns have exploded from overcharged reloads or squibs from underpowered loads . Crappy discount bulk reloads can cause problems too . If Sig’s are actually having issues with quality factory ammo that’s concerning but not something that I’ve ever heard of .
One comment you made stuck out . Would love more context on the comment about not being comfortable firing a M18. I think it is important because too many people are saying “oh the M17/M18 have a manual safety, they are GTG”.
Judging by the fact that both p320 and m17/m18 shares internal parts, m17/m18 has no trigger safety then holstering it with chambered round and with safety off may cause same problem like with p320
The problem is SIG is so oblique about these issues, nobody really knows all the facts.
And by facts, I mean what is actually happening when they discharge? The argument for the external safety versions starts from an unproven assumption.
Then when you toss in the KB’s with factory ammo, it doesn’t give me the warm and fuzzies with the M17-18 either.
@@John1911 Stephen from ProTEQ suggested that lack of trigger safety and little tension on it from holster may cause the problem but we can't be sure because SIG gave a statement that states nothing.
@@przemekchmielewski2137 Any conversation about this particular incident needs to acknowledge that one, none of us have this particular gun in hand. And two, none of us have this particular holster either. The public statement that SIG released saying the PD wouldn’t give them the gun is not the end of the investigation. In reality, this is an OIS. Will likely be investigated by the PD in question. The sheriff of the county in which they reside. Or the state bureau of investigation. SIG didn’t get this gun because it’s evidence. Maybe they will get access to it later at some point through official channels? But just like the assumptions about the thumb safety, a lot of the people assuming this evidence is off the table are hanging in the breeze. The civil suit alone by some ambulance chaser lawyer demands they hold and secure the evidence. But “gun guys” are mostly blind to the real world.
What I think Ben meant by that was that though there haven't been any reports of the M17/18 firing uncommanded in military use, the fact that he's seen so many P320s blow up with the frames cracking and them firing out of battery, etc. is, understandably, what makes him weary of shooting the M18. Then there's also the fact that those pistols aren't the most pleasant to shoot with 9mm NATO. I mean if gamers' minor loads are blowing up P320s, what more for spicy 9mm NATO in the M17/18...
If these guns are as much as a disaster people make them out to be, the problem should reveal itself in a big way while in military service. Hoping no on gets hurt.
Bet you could blow one up if you fired it fast enough
Couldn't have said it better
Interesting
Details?
Sig stands for self-injuring gun, since they go off on their own!!!!!! I would NEVER own one!!!!!!
Okay, I lied, I do love the MPX and use it for PCC competition, but would never use their handguns