Optimizing Multiclassing: The Basics
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ส.ค. 2024
- This is part 1 of a 2 part video. Stay tuned for class by class multiclassing jump points
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
3:52 Prerequisites
5:12 Proficiencies
7:50 Hit points
8:43 Proficiency bonus and Ability scores
9:45 Channel Divinity
10:45 Extra Attack
13:23 Unarmored Defense
15:05 Spellcasting
17:52 Thinking Ahead
19:06 Feature Scaling
20:17 Accessing Extra Attack
20:52 Setting Ability Scores
22:30 Spells
23:41 ASIs/Feats
25:41 Wrap Up
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I really dislike how martials get a dead level for extra attack if they multiclass but casters can basically maintain their max casting power practically if they switch to another caster class.
Apparently its done for balance issue. If thats the case I am not sure how it really helps since spell casting is so strong in 5e
, unless its to help balance something like the Bladesinger or Swords Bard
@@Year2047 what balance?
I am new to this. I just got to 6th level ranking up as a fighter and was thinking of jumping into rouge. But am lost on what is lost on the multi attack. Don’t I have that at 5th Lvl as a fighter? Do I loose it if I jump to rouge at? Which would put me as a 5 lvl fighter and 1st lvl rouge. Help lol.
I wouldn't say that's true in general, since spells known are based on single classes. A Cleric 10 / Druid 10 would only be able to cast 5th level spells, which is obviously bad for a full caster at level 20. Even dipping a few levels hurts, since it puts you behind the curve in spell progression. If you've got some kind of clever build that heavily relies on upcasting, great, but that would be the kind of creativity multiclassing should encourage.
casters lose their highest level spells to cast, so they will cry a little on the inside.
An interesting (or frustrating) challenge with coming up with multiclass builds is what I'd call "level 20 syndrome." You find an interesting combo that looks strong on the completed build, but it's easy to forget to consider actually running the character in a campaign. When you do, you often find that either your character would suck for the vast majority of it, or you'd have to play the majority of the game as a mono class until multiclassing right at the end to maybe get a level or two with your target build online.
Amen! I really only consider characters that are fun to play from level 1, unless the campaign starts at higher levels or is a one shot. I have been playing since the early 1980s and I still have never had a character reach level 20. Those builds just bore me.
Yep! That wizard with the one level cleric dip looks great at level 18-20. You feel the pain every odd character level before that, though. Instead of moving on to the next spell level, you are delayed, so whatever dip you take, it better make up for the delayed spell level progression with great versatility. Clerics feel that pain the least, imo. Any caster dip you take is just letting you upcast aid and spirit guardians so you always have something to do with those extra spell slots.
This kind of multi classing I can see in one shots/short campaigns. But not it 0 to hero long ones
This is why I consider class features in general, multiclassing or not, based on the first 5 levels and cap out at level 10. Heck, class guides that emphasize really exaggerate how good high level features are.
that's why I'm not upset my 16th level monk just died, because now I can play my shitshow build I call "frankenstein's paladin" without worrying about the messy and weak arcs of it
I think this is where genuine game theory circles back to an actual game.
The d&d community has been on this creativity kick for long enough that many (maybe even most) have never heard of game theory, or what it means, and so don't understand that this is precisely the type of question it was developed to solve.
There IS a "best" for anything that has limits and finite definitions. There is NO "best" without those things.
I love this kind of content from Treantmonk - his explanations seem so logical and well-thought-out.
He is good at this stuff, and has done it for many- many years.
And, like Colby, he just seems like a really nice and chill person.
This video, plus part 2, seem so straight forward. But watching them again, I'm seeing so many nuances. They constitute a masterclass in the mechanics of character creation.
Going into one dnd I really hope they do something about stacking extra attack. Or at least multi classing martials in general. 2 Casters get to build off of eachothers spell levels. But martials just get hosed.
Yes, a common house rule is if you get extra attack more than once, you can choose a feat instead, maybe they could do something like that.
I really hope this gets some attention.
I've been in a tight spot with my gunslinger/artificer for example, because I really want to put more levels into my artificier to gain more infusions, but getting past the 'dead' level of armourers extra attack stings hard.
@Treantmonk‘s Temple that‘s actually a great idea, gonna keep that one in mind. Also great video, I’m already looking forward to the 2nd video :D
@@TreantmonksTemple I've never heard of this. What a fun house rule!
@@TreantmonksTemple I've been playing with this house rule so long I forgot it was a house rule and had to check my PHB. I definitely recommend this. It's very satisfying to MC into Fighter after getting extra attack in another class and getting Feats/ASIs at Fighter 4, 5, and 6.
Wait, there was a multiclass rule that Treantmonk didn't know about?
Oh, of course, it involves monk.
(For what its worth I consider that one to be less obscure than the Paladin/Cleric "you don't get more uses of channel divinity" one, cause for whatever reason a lot of people on optimisation forums try to make strength based monks a thing, so I find myself reminding people of this rule regularly. Most of the time the response is "I talked to my DM and they said they're fine with me being able to pick betwen the two unarmoured defences", which is a perfectly sensible DM houserule, but yeah, not RAW).
I tend to forget rules I don't use very often.
for it to be in his name, monk does tend to be a massive blind spot for him going by him mentioning really basic stuff about it as surprising to him.
This is excellenttttttt. I'm not nearly as proficient at making builds as, likely, the average viewer, but videos like this give so much helpful context to what would otherwise be completely inscrutable.
Excellent point I wasn't aware of the Bladesinger + Fighter extra attacks not working.
One thing that you might have missed regarding Unarmored Defense: It ALSO does not stack with Mage Armor, Draconic Sorcerer's natural scale defense, the Tortle's natural defense, or the Dragon Hide Feat.
I think he assumes people know it doesn’t work that way.
If you are multiclassing on paper, I do highly recommend using different character sheets. Especially when it comes to spellcasters.
A friend of mine modified the spell sheet by using Photoshop. He added a second row of spell slots and spell levels, it's way easier to keep track of things
I found that out when making a Tomelock/Sorcerer - I have too many cantrips to fit on the sheet.
@@fanaroto The main reason is so that you can easily differentiate Which spells came from which class.
I wish 5e had a system where you could build a class by picking class features that are assigned point values, and you have a certain number of points to spend to build a class from all of the possible features from every class.
Or maybe I just want a classes TTRPG system where everyone just builds their class from scratch.
Technically... 5e does have that but WotC threw it at the DMs.
That's the reason why Fighter/Fighter should exist but WotC got lazy about it.
When in the same breath, the DMG does mention that the DM can create their own classes for players based on the current classes.
Something else to consider is that the high level class or subclass abilities are so unbalanced (some of them are really bad) that it is more than worth it to get the abilities of taking a first or second level dip into a different class is actually more powerful than getting to level 19 or 20 in a class. For example I played a character to lvl 17 thief, level 2 fighter, level 1 divine soul sorcerer. A couple of spells (including shield) a cantrip and action surge were far more powerful than what I would have gotten for just going to 20 in thief.
Funny enough... From what hear... A Fighter first/Rogue second Multiclass has 7x Feat/ASI options.
If that's possible, then I can ditch my lv20 Fighter for a much better character.
Eldritch Knight X Arcane Trickster will be fun since Str and Dex is easy to combo with the Warforged and Point Buy.
Love the video! Excited for the jump point videos!
Daaaang, yep, definitely surprised by that unarmored defense rule
Yeah, most DM's just ignore that rule, and let you choose I find.
I love this video, and the next video sounds like it'll be really exciting!
Extremely helpful, concise, and delivered with trickster sage energy I appreciate.
Hey, I got the unarmored defense question right! 🎉
When my players multiclass and suffer a redundant class ability, I offer them a feat or half feat (take out the ASI bonus).
Or sometimes they nab something equivalent from a subclass in that character class.
In regard to 5e... No one likes dead levels. lol
This is great. I will be referencing people to this video a lot!
I've been waiting for this video for a really long time!!
Great video. I'm a new DM and starting a campaign using combining the Starter Set and the Essentials Kit with a small group of 4 players. My adventure hook idea involves the player characters all starting as level 1 fighters (mainly for the HP foundation) of varying backgrounds of their choice then picking a character multi-class to begin their adventuring "career" to as a hand-picked group of special forces types by Rockseeker to help him clear the mines of Phandelver. After seeing this, I might have 1 or 2 start as a rogue to optimize the proficiencies skills. Thanks for sharing.
Multiclassing full casters and half casters (or casters in general, with the exception of warlock) has always been an enigma to me.
Love these type of videos! Very informative and interesting. I am already proficient with most rules but I love these podcast type of videos about D&D stuff. Only thing I'd pick on would be the cuts between takes, as I felt they were a little short. Sometimes I'd lose track of the flow and not notice you were already moving on to the next point. Love the content though! Keep it up.
Always great vids. I plan around feats so much, don’t have that issue. You did get me with monk barb, not that I would not allow it if I was dm.
Currently my 8 paladin/5 warlock/ 2 sorc/4 bard is pretty dang awesome. Hitting level 5 bard for level 20 sometime I assume. But those 3rd level spells will be very utility, but bless, fly, etc still very much a thing.
Was tempted to give up a feat for fighter just for lols and action surge.. decided feat/slots/spells/college swords - maneuvers short rest was better
Thanks for this video Chris.
My pleasure!
Looking forward to hearing more! Fingers crossed that we see some Blood Hunter coverage; I know it isn't as favored as the base classes, but it is an interesting and thematic option for content that is just left of official. I think there may be some interesting multi-class options for the BH as well, but I'm a little on the fence as to how they should play out
Wow! That's an interesting tidbit at 14:44. I assumed it was true! One more reason why the Monk is DnD's D-student
Wish I had a video like that when I started out a bit over a year ago when I started getting interested in Multiclassing.
I will definitely link to this video when one of my players wanne get into it
My 2 Copper.
Other reasons for Multiclassing. 1) Do not like late level abilities. 1a.) May not play long enough to reach the late levels to get those abilities. 2) Staying withing the class does not allow you to create the character you envision playing - Reflavor multi class as just fulfilling your character's path to fit concept. (Also fits with role play) 3) and Of Course the Min/Max path. You are a hero to make a heroic build. features from other classes can help with that.
Well I’ll be damned. You got me, I didn’t know about that unarmored rule!
As someone who knows way too much about the game relative to how much I actually get to play it, I got ur quiz question correct. Also, Coby from d4 pointed this out in a build once cause he does lots of weird multiclasses. What I DIDN'T realize was that a bladesinger 6/fighter 11 can't do two attacks and a cantrip, but I've never played at double digit levels anyway so it's fine.
All true, unfortunately...
But on the flip side... Eldritch Knight X Bladesinger can perform the Bladesinger Extra Attack to "attack + cast a cantrip" then follow it up with the Eldritch Knight's War Magic. Along with applying Eldritch Strike on refresh, if possible.
Sad thing is... You're dealing with 4 stats. Str, Dex, Int, and Chr.
I was making a dexterity based barbarian with rogue for a few ideas like constant advantage or guardian barb with bonus disengage etc, and the two toughest things that made balancing when to take which levels were ability score increases and extra attack.
Man preaching truth. Listen and gain.
Your point on ASIs and their importance is so true. I've delayed my ASIs on my rogue/bard and it hurts right now. I'm able to compete with the martials despite not having extra attack and limiting sneak attack because of booming blade for now, but man, not having that ASI rn hurts
I only know the Fighter/Eldritch Knight Class... However... I hear the Rogue Class can get the same ASI/Feat options as pure Fighters do when Multiclassing.
Eldritch Knight + Arcane Trickster will be interesting. With or without Feats.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 it all depends on the level split. Rogues get an additional ASI from the base. Everyone gets an ASI at class level 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19, but rogues also get one at 10 and fighters get additional ones at 6 and 14
Great video and something I wish I had seen before creating my character. He's a 3/3 sorlock and it feels so bad not having third level spells and not a since ASI.
Must say I have been surprised as to how long low lvl play lasted in our campaign which really hurts
I struggle with multi-classing, but only because of the opportunity cost. I love Bard/Warlock MC, for instance, because I use it at an opportunity for my Bard to cover weaknesses like low AC and low dpr. I love getting that eldritch blast/agonizing blast combo going because it allows me to drop meaningful damage round to round while concentrating on a spell and that allows me to conserve my spell slots. And you really broaden your spell selection at 1st level too because you get the extra ones from Warlock (Hexblade). But yeah at 7th lvl you aren't getting Polymorph. And you're also pushing ASIs off 2 levels and eventually your Bardic Secrets and your 9th lvl spells. Not crippling but you feel it. Like any compromise
Hi chris, just wanted to let you know that the new background makes your videos much more comfortable to watch, the old "against the wall" setup was kinda claustrophobic, hope to see your filmmaking gear, light setup and backgrounds get better as you grow as a TH-camr. And I really enjoy this "Teach them how to fish" videos!
Wow, really good to listen to stuff we think we know. Somehow I had the misconception over now two years that we do not get any armor prof by multiclassing into a class. Thank you for the clarification.
What not true and not what Chris said. No class give you heavy armor but lots give light or medium.
@@--DW Yes, that was my misconception and Chris opened my eyes. That is why I thanked him :D
I feel pretty good that I knew all of this but then I'm currently MCing Wizard/Cleric so I had to really make sure I understood all nuances correctly. In some cases I was doing random theorycrafting and learned some of these as a result. The Unarmored Defense I actually learned because of a friend and I trying to make Tortle Monks (You know damn well why we did this)
I'd like some input on a lovechild of mine, a multiclass that manages to succeed as an AC tank at all levels of play.
If your DM will let you start with War Caster, great, if not, it's not strictly nessicary yet; you can just forgo using a shield until you get it, the +2 doesn't matter all that much.
This can work with both a STR and a DEX build; the difference between the two is entirely minimal, except that the Dex version is more well-rounded.
You want a good attack stat, good Charisma, and a decent Con; anything else is secondary, and you can freely dump Int should you so choose, which might sound weird with what's coming but it'll make sense.
Start with 3 levels of Fighter, and take the Eldritch Knight subclass. Fighting style can be anything but Defense, while it seems small to have a +1 to your AC, will matter at the levels of AC you're going to be pulling from your ass. You may not have good Int to work with on spellcasting, but that doesn't matter for this build, as you'll be taking spells that don't factor your casting modifier anyway. For cantrips, Booming Blade and a utility option seems like a solid choice. And for spells, you'll want Shield, Absorb Elements, and Magic Missile. If you *do* have a decent INT, you can make a different choice then Magic Missile, but it works regardless so it's still a solid ranged option.
Now... You forget Fighter forever. Go into Bard, all the way to level 20. You'll want to focus your spells around AOE and defensive options, such as Mirror Image and Shatter. Dissonant Whispers is also a must at early levels. At level 3, you'll go College of Swords, and now you have the gimmick that inspired this build in the first place: Since you have Weapon Bond, and can use any weapon you're proficient with as a Bard focus, you are *never* without a spellcasting focus. If you want one, you have one, and it is theoretically impossible for someone to take that away from you.
You can rely somewhat on Booming Blade to alleviate the lack of Extra Attack until you hit level 9, and you even have an interesting gimmick: You can Booming Blade, Action Surge, Dissonant Whispers, and if/as they run, take an opportunity attack. Expensive turn, but it's a solid nova if you're in a pinch.
Rely on one-handed weapons, and from Bard, take the Dueling fighting style to increase your damage floor with them. And use your Bardic Inspiration sparingly until you feel comfortable you can get them back; as they are also a valuable defensive resource. When you are in a position where you're threatened, you can take Defensive Flourish; Which combined with heavy or medium armor and a shield, your AC fluctuates on average to 24. And remember... You have the Shield spell, so once you get War Caster that number could more realistically be read as 29.
Eventually this stabilizes further with access to Magical Secrets to get additional AC boosting spells-- Your concentration is good enough that you can rely on Haste if you so choose-- and eventually the ability to Defensive Flourish without using up Bardic Inspiration, further bolstering your options without negatively impacting your defense too much. Your damage isn't the highest in the world, but it's not what the build is focused on anyway, and depending on Magical Secrets selections you can easily remedy that at later levels with spells such as Holy Weapon.
At the highest tier of play, this build can theoretically, on average, achieve (without magic items taken into account) 35 AC, with a ceiling of 40. Enough to make even a Tarrasque struggle to make contact. With no resource expenditure *at all*, you can expect an AC comfortably hovering around 26, with Shield still available if you're desperate.
Thank you
Awesome work Skye, this might be one of your favorite works. Some bits made me tear a little 🍜🍚🥣 (Your choice)
17:30 slight caveat, Crawford has clarified that the Eldritch Smite invocation only works with pact magic spell slots, not spellcasting spell slots.
Eldritch smite isn't a spell, it's a class ability that uses a spell slot, but it's still unique as compared to rangers primeval awareness that is also a class ability but can be used with any spell slot.
Nice content, as allways! I'm playing an Eloquence Bard (currently, lvl 5) and thinking about multiclassing into sorerer. Bard X Sorc 2 for "font of magic" with the "metamagic adept" feat (4 sp in total). But with the Sorc 2 I'm losing 1 ASI from Bard (plus the one I use for metamagic adept). Do you think is a good idea?
So for Artificer Armor who wants to make use of the new light weapon rules; infusing two hand crossbows to make them repeaters, should the level 1 fighter dip for archery FS be taken at level 4 (right after getting armorer,) at level 5 (right after ASI) or at level 6 (right after extra attack?)
you can't infuse two times with the same infusion, so stick to one reapeating crossbow and the laser beam of the inflitrator armor, and it can be neat
not possible, you can't take the sam infusion twice unless it's to create a magic item
Though you could do this with a repeating hand crossbow and a weapon of returning infusion dagger, but the returning weapon wouldn't benefit from archery style since it's not a ranged weapon -the lightning launcher would though, and once you get extra attack you can use all three in a round.
another bonus for this with that new light weapon rule set is that your bonus action is free to set up hex
I'm currently a grave domain cleric but would like to use fey touched and move to doalock ... any suggestions?
Question, unarmored defense, can a player combine say a Monks U.D with the Bladsingers Bladesong? Or would this be like combining the monks/barbarian unarmored defenses?
I took my first level in rogue as a dip and then all into sorcerer because i really needed the extra skills and expertise.
Im so happy I hit the nail on the head with the unarmoured defense, but i guess thats what an ADHD hyperfixation on d&d rules/optimisation gets you
How would you feel if in 6e there would be a multiclass version for each class that would give slightly different abilities than the base and only go to level 5?
"... only go to lv5" is really harsh. It means that a lv5 Class for Multiclassing have better be designed to be on par with a lv20 Full Class Character. Of which, WotC won't do.
But the wrest of the idea is good.
At least it's better than old school RPGs where Exp Gain to level up was harsher on Multiclassing compared to the Basic/Advance Classes.
This a crazy good video and gave me so much to think about. I cannot wait for the next one! (I have a level 7 bladesinger and I’m trying to decide, do I wanna multi class at this point.) please do more multi classing videos in the future! Thank you!
What if for oneDnD if you have more than one unarmored defence you could choose one of them and then add +1AC?
17:04 I know this video was made awhile ago now but I was wondering where it says that you add half your Artificer lvls rounded up, not rounded down like with Rangers and Paladins, when you multiclass. Is that in the PHB? Thank you great video as usual
Ok, this should be good
Awesome!
Thanks!
Okay Treantmonk. Since you are a pro at multiclassing then accept this challenge: make a multiclass build that includes all the classes and can be viable at your table.
It wouldn’t surprise me if you already have this build.
I loved this video but I wish you had put a bit more focus on the terms and ideas of MAD (Multi Attribute Dependent) and SAD (Single Attribute Dependent) because new multi class era will run into those terms.
Is the 2 barbarian, 18 fighter multiclass better than just going 20 lvls in fighter and getting your extra attack?
I call on the power of the algorithm god to cast bless on this video
Hell i didn't even look at Warlocks till this month! Dang thing doesn't count as spell casting class levels, but it does give extra spell slots.
As a DM, I am somewhat lenient with the ability prerequisites of multiclassing. For example I did have a dex based Paladin in a game, used mainly a rapier (with lesser effect) and their spellcasting, played more like a cleric than a Paladin. I offered them the chance to make a pact with the sentient magic longsword they looted off a dragon and they got to dip Hexblade with only a strength of 10. Didn’t break anything and the player (who is relatively newer) really enjoyed their first multiclass with less frustrations of building
Actually made quite a few characters that muliclassed. It is confusing particularly with spell casting. I do agree that when it is optimal it goes a lot smooth but I like interesting builds. Had this idea for a Dex-based Sorcerer/Paladin and the build-path is possible one of the worst. I was going to start with 1 lvl in Paladin and then go into Draconic Blood Sorcerer. I would have a 16 Cha, 16 Dex, 13 Str, 12 Con, and the rest as I see fit. I would focus on Paladin until I get the ASI and then switch to Sorcerer until I get the ASI. It would have no armor after getting the 1st Sorcerer and use a Rapier + shield while having a 18 AC(13 base + 3 Dex + 2 Shield). It isn't going to be the tankiest but its going to have a decent initiative, AC, and hit chance while not having the issue of heavy armor.
I'm curious to know what dislikes you have about the MC system and what, if anything, you would change. I've seen such a wide variety of suggestions over time that I can't keep track of everything
- removal of ability score requirements
- ASIs tied to character level instead of classes
- replacing MC with a system where you take some features from one class and some from another, requiring a rework of class features and subclass features but standardizing what you would gain and lose when multiclassing
- rebalancing of some classes and subclasses, ex: hexblade, to have less front-loading of features
- ensuring all or most features that scale do so off of proficiency bonus instead of class level
Etc. Etc. I'm not sure what I personally would or wouldn't implement, but it's a big topic.
Without making 5.5e Homebrew... ASI/Feat Options would be tied to Character Level based on a Standard ASI/Feat set or on the First Class you picked.
Meaning... The "you get ASI or a Feat at lv1 and at every 4th Character level" would be the answer. Since most DMs do this already.
I really would like to see a swashbuckler /hexblade video in the future.
I remember discovering the thing about Artificer spell slots when I was using an app to build my character.
Is there any way to optimize a Way of the Open Hand Monk with Divination Wizard to maximize stunning strike & quivering palm?
A friend rolls the wizard.
Monk 6, jump then so that you still make something happen in ki-empowered strikes.
Embrace the sense of woe as your divination rolls never get low enough to force the monsters to roll low enough on critical moments, but come during the filler episodes.
Chris: Will you please do a video on maintaining concentration?
Nice summary of multiclassing?
Fun Fact: When performing the Hold Action for Spell Casting. You do use your Concentration.
Also... It's fun to Banish a creature then immediately cast Major Illusion. This works because Banish would bring the creature back after canceling Banish by casting Major Illusion.
Since... In general RAW... You could only concentrate with one Spell. So casting Banish + Major Illusion is one example of concentration spell combos.
However... In cases like Meta Magic. Twinning Banish (or twinning concentration spells) are not explained in the rules. Leaving it up to DM Fiat on whether or not its allowed.
At least RAI... Twin should supercede Twinned Concentration Spells. It's the very same poor rulling as to why you cannot Twin Booming Blade by WotC, even though the context of the spell should allow it.
Honestly even without feats ASIs are often better than class features. I mean that could be another +1 to all your attacks, spell attacks, spell save DC, class feature saves, saving throws, or w/e
Would it also be possible in the next video or a future one to talk about starting points for multi class? Like if I wanted to do a fight/barb build which should be the start, and how do you continue with builds with repeating extra attack? Don't want to delay extra attack too bad, but want to get the best of the early features of both.
For Barb-Fighter, you always go 5 + 4 + X, where you start depends on where you want to finish assuming your campaign goes that high as you continue with your first class after the 4 level dip but it doesn’t matter which is which because both are good.
@@agilemind6241
I just go "one in each Multiclass" per level up.
Stats - Point Buy... Lv1 Warforged: 16 con, 15 str, 14 dex, 10 int, 10 wis, 10 chr
Multiclass: Fighter/Rogue (Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster)
Feats: Magic Initiate, Warcaster, or Eldritch Adept etc.
ASI: 12 to 10 ASI points by lv20 Character Level.
Magic Items: Amulet of Vigor, Belt of Strength, Flame Tongue...
Yeah… whenever I multiclass I just have to come to terms with being MAD… and slightly behind everyone else stat-wise.
This is true but sometimes less relevant, even as a Sorcerer 2 Warlock 3 you're behind a full caster but you're still ahead of half casters, martials have Extra Attack but Eldritch Blast scales with character level not class level and you've likely got hex and agonizing blast. D4 has a video about how a FighterX/Barbarian2 will out DPR a straight leveled fighter using Str at every single level.
Hey chris, speaking of multiclassing i have a concept for a summoner that focuses on summoning/using as many beasts at the same time that all have different mechanics and actions (so no conjure animals style spells or they at least won't be used to summon more than one or two creatures with them)
My DM also has a strong nerf to point buy because he wants us to actually take ASIs and play a bit of a lower power campaign, it's a 21 pointbuy score with any above 13 requiring 2 points and capping out at 15 like standard.
I'm thinking i want druid on this build so i was going to go for loxodon (decent natural armor and unfortunately tortles and lizardfolk don't exist in our world)
Starting out ranger for 5 levels, pick up archery, extra attack, beast master's promal companion, summon beast and starting with a 15+2wis, 14+1 con and 13dex (which uses up all my 21 points) 16 starting AC not too shabby and the archery fighting style will make up for my lacking dex. After that I'd go straight into wildfire druid the rest of the way. Gaining the wildfire spirit, additional fire spells and of course wild shape, grab the magic initiate feat to pick up find familiar and booming blade/greenflame blade just in case i ever end up in melee and need to run.
Combat would mostly look like turn 1 summon wildfire spirit bonus action primal spirit attack, round 2 summon beast and use fiery teleportation to get my spirit and primal companion away and have the summoned beast attack with the familiars help action. It's a lot of setup and i don't know how I'd speed it up. Other than perhaps metamagic adept quicken spell
So this build by round 3 would have 1 attack from the character, one attack from the primal companion via extra attack, one attack with advantage thanks to the summoned beast and the familiar and one fiery teleportation to scatter them all at the end of the turn, it would also throw out about 90 extra hit points and 4 extra creatures onto the battlefield to distract the enemies from my allies
Any advie or criticism welcome it's a fun concept I'm eager to play and i want to see if there's a way to make it better don't worry about it slowing the game down I'm good with having macros and quickly using attacks in rapid order.
Personal I rule at my table that if a feature has the same name a effect such as muti attack and evasion you gain it at your combined level its made the game more fun at my table
I figured you could only use one AC calculation at once. Like how you can’t use natural armor with unarmored defense and stuff so it made sense that you can’t combine them.
Very curious to see if OneDnD changes multi classing rules and makes all subclasses start at level 3.
I think there’s one last note involving Spellcasting that could’ve been covered. Let’s say I have 5 Levels in Eldritch Knight Fighter and 5 Levels in Arcane Trickster Rogue, what do my spell slots look like? Are they that of a third level caster, or do I get hosed in that department and they’re that of a second level caster? I want to say I would get hosed in that situation but I want to make sure.
hosed. once you get to 6/5 [or 6/3] you'll be a 3rd level caster, and at 6/6 you're a 4th, and will only have 1st level spells until one of those classes gets to 7. 1/3 caster progression is a huge slog.
@@elliotbryant3459
At least... There are exception to that rule.
1) Feats like Magic Initiate
2) Avoid picking less than 1 Spell Caster class/subclass.
3) Pick Warlock.
So... Fighter/Rogue has the ASI/Feat options up to 7x Feats/14x ASIs. Any levels that are not needed can go into Warlock. Then pick a Martial subclass and a Caster Subclass for Fighter / Rogue.
Since a Martial Caster Multiclass will not impede spell progression.
I thought that you can't cast some warlock spells with your regular spell slots, as it is said in the spell description that you have to use your warlock spell slot to cast it. Correct me if I'm wrong)
I know bloodhunter isnt core, but does the profane soul pactslots combine with warlock?
yep it says so, although for some reason they made it tied to spell progression which doesn't work at all sojust ignore that part lmao
Per the last paragraph of the document in the 2020 revision you add 1/3 your bloodhunter level (rounded down) to your warlock level and consult the warlock chart for cantrips and pact slots.
I feel like optimizing isn't hard if you know the following: expected campaign length, fellow players' experience on average, difficulty of the campaign world/enemies, and expected campaign goals/paths. Once you have all of that, you next step should be to always plan your PC from the start of the campaign until the expected end. I create a Excel Doc containing the attributes of the PC during their expected life cycle. After this, I go into backstory and motivations that make sense for the kind of PC.
I think going any other way into PC creation will almost always lead to a sub optimized party.
Disagree, Greedy optimization is generally the best for D&D since you never know how long you'll be stuck at any particular level. Plus it is so simple for players to understand: each level you must gain more from MC than you would from taking another level of your main class.
Your recent video on how to TH-cam inspired me to make videos, I've got audio recorded and visuals being assembled for a channel devoted to Multiclass options and optimization, can honestly say I did know that Unarmored Defense caviat and feel like I can upload videos without any shame now. Also if you see this, are there any good artists you'd recommend for commissioning visual assets??
What I generally do these days is take the existing art from the D&D sourcebooks and use that. I figure since I'm actually reviewing/analyzing D&D the contents of those books I'm commenting on are fair game. Good luck on your videos!
I would argue that the best multiclassing "comes naturally". Case in point:
One of my present characters is Kendria Bowrunner - a Lightfoot Halfling Swashbuckler with the Pirate background, who was once Second Mate aboard The Serpent's Cairn (which supposedly went down with all hands). Quasi-lucky rolls included an 18 and 13, which went into Dexterity and Charisma; racial mods brought these to 20 and 14. I've always played her as a bit of a fop, though it's mostly an act to cover for her roiling anger stemming from being twice orphaned - her mother died trying to escape a war zone and her 'father' (pirate captain) died when their ship was ambushed.
After reaching 5th level, I was looking to expand her repertoire (multiclass) when the campaign shifted and we were confronting more magical adversaries. A surprise blast from a Vitriolic Sphere took her down and she failed two Death Saves before an ally stabilized her - only the second time she had been taken down and the first time she had come so near to dying. It wasn't much longer before she reached 6th level and the opportunity was too good to pass up...
~ She'd never known her biological father and was quite young (never specified, but like 5-7 years old) when her mother died
~ She had recently come within a hair's breadth of dying from a formidable magical attack
~ Both her class and personality lent themselves towards darkness
Hence, her next level dipped into Shadow Sorcerer.
Her background expanded to include that her biological father carried the Shadowfell - she doesn't know this and, even if she did, has no way of knowing if either her mother or father knew about it. The Strength of the Grave feature of Shadow Sorcery synergizes extremely well with both her near-death experience and its magical cause. She gained Chill Touch, Green-Flame Blade, Mind Sliver, and Sword Burst as her Cantrips, all of which play to both the manner of her 'awakening' and her swashbuckling; Chaos Bolt and Shield both play to her wild nature and general survivability.
Thus far she has continued to progress as a Rogue, leaving Sorcerer with its one-level dip for the time being. Though she did opt to pick up Spell Sniper as her 9th-level (8th-level Rogue) Feat, adding Eldrich Blast to her repertoire, while her 11th-level (10th-level Rogue) ASI increased her Charisma to 16 - giving her Initiative (via Rakish Audacity), spell DC/Mod, and Deception/Intimidation a subtle boost.
Kendria is downright evil (metaphorically-speaking; she's Chaotic Good). She's extremely dangerous in melee, using her maneuvering traits to nearly always get in her (now 5d6) Sneak Attack (plus 2d8 from Green-Flame Blade) against single opponents or Sword Burst (now 3d6) against crowds. When unable to close for melee, she has insane 240' range with Chill Touch, Eldrich Blast, and Chaos Bolt (±3d8 each) and nothing less than Full Cover will get in her way.
Prediction, 5 will be the most common jump point
It really goes to show just how actually complex and random seeming a lot of the design choices are for 5e’s multiclassing rules. They have specific rules for what transfers for almost everything. A lot of the features that don’t transfer or aren’t allowed to be chosen between like the unarmored defense are confusing as to why the decision is made.
The unarmored defence rule isn't as random as it seems, Monks can't use their Martial Arts or Unarmored Movement if they're using a shield which the Barbarian version allows, meanwhile a barbarian is likely to spec more into con or str than wis so no point allowing them to take an inferior version of UD, so it'd be silly to allow a crossover.
Would it be too bad to make ASIs work like proficiency rather than class features?
Hard agree on ASIs being more important than most class features. To hit and spell save DC can only be put off for so long before rising monster AC becomes punishing.
Merci beaucoup pour cette introduction au multiclass. Je suis présentement dans une campagne a laquelle on m’a proposé un personnage niveau 6. 2 levels bard/2 levels druid ( circule of spore )/ 2 levels sorcerer (dragonborn) et je me demandais comment rendre ce personnage viable.
Merci pour votre aide
Patrick
If you have prepared spells then dont you have acess to your entire spell list to some degree?
Uh, I love little interactive questions!
So, I do not claim to be super well-versed in the multiclassing rules. Monk especially I have never multiclassed (and never will because I will never play Monk in any capacity).
But for the question my guess is this: From the way it is phrased, I think the second part specifically is false, making the whole statement false.
Under no circumstances would I believe you could just combine the two Unarmored Defenses, just adding Wisdom *and* Constitution to your AC. That sounds pretty good actually.
However, from the way the question is phrased, I also guess you do not get to *choose* which one you are benefitting from. I bet you are just stuck with whatever you've gotten first.
Correct, RAW...
A DM would let you choose between Con or Wis. However, they may not let you combine Con and Wis to your AC.
I'm listening to your video and I just realized. in the new OneDnD where everyone seems to be preparing spel according to their available spell slot a bard 5, ranger 10, would be a 10th-level spellcaster. so the highest level I could cast with my bard is a spell level 3 and my highest ranger spell should also be level 3. But I should have level 5 spell slot, so technically I should be able to prepare a spell level 5?
Multiclassing has its own rules. I’m not sure if One Dnd changes multiclassing.
No. One DnD has a segment for each class about multiclassing. For both bard and ranger, it states that you prepare spells for each class individually, referring to the spell slots of an individual class to determine the number and level of the spells you prepare for it. In other words, it works the same as it did in 5e
People miss the fighter 11 bladesinger 6 all the time, thinking they can make two attacks and then a cantrip to top it off. Thanks for pointing that out.
Well any dm worth there solt will allow this awesome combo though
@@yuvalgabay1023
Best I'd do is flip how spellcasting while attacking works between bladesinger and eldritch knight.
Bladesinger can get War Magic and Eldritch knight can get their Extra Attack.
Curious about these jump points
I realize this channel likes to focus on RAW, but I'm interested in game design. A big disincentive from multiclassing is potentially losing out on ASIs/feats, but why is that? If we tied those things to Character Level instead of Class Level, does game balance completely break? A followup question is whether there's an issue with having to choose between ASIs and Feats at all.
1) that is in fact how the game used to work: feats (except for bonus fighter feats) were based on character level. This, along with several other 3.5 decisions made multiclassing stronger than in 5e and more likely to make a gap between established and new players. For better and worse, 5e designers made many conscious decisions like this (including monk weapons lacking the "finesse" tag) to weaken multiclassing. Does it break the game? Probably not as much as powerful spells already do, but it likely does nake feat hungry builds quite a bit better, and makes notorious multiclasses like warlock2 and gloomstalker much stronger. Most pronounced negative effect is probably making singleclassed martials feel even weaker than they already do
2) The designers seem to think so at least to an extent, given the current playtest feats of level 4 are all half feats, even strong ones like warcaster. FWIW I think giving up a fun feature for a mathematically superior numbers increase is super boring. This too was an reversion of older editions whose feats and ASIs were different and unrelated. Why they combined them I'm not sure: perhaps because there's less to keep track of this way. Whatever the reason, I think the playtest is at least a step in the right direction, though I'd rather they still be separate.
@@deivore3438 Thanks for all the background and input!
1) I've read this twice and can't tell if multiclassing got better or worse lol. I've watched enough of this channels vids to know that multiclassed builds tend to be stronger when optimized, but a video like this exists to show that there are clear pitfalls for newer players to fall in to disincentivize/punish thoughtless multiclassing.
2) I find myself almost never picking ASI, even when it's optimal, because getting a +1 to something is less interesting than being able to do something new. I keep thinking that a 3 point stat investment (ASI + half-feat) might be too powerful for greedy players, but tbh most builds max out the stats they need anyways.
@@VinceOfAllTrades thanks! Hopefully its interesting to read about.
RE 1) I'd say it was a design goal for multiclassing to be worse, and they succeeded in some ways and not others. I'd say there are fewer multiclass builds in 5e that can so thoroughly outdo their peers as in 3.5, and that it's easier to trainwreck a multiclass build in 5e, but that some 5e features especially armor proficiency are much much stronger when multiclassed compared to 3.5.
RE 2) I agree with abilities being more fun. If youre talking abt letting players get a feat and half feat every level, thats definitely significantly more powerful but keep in mind that the half feats get progressively worse as you take the best ones early. The answer here is kind of "whatever works for your table" and I don't believe the game is so rigidly balanced that there is a single answer. A lot of tables simply award a feat at level 1 and I think that's more where I would land (maybe at the cost of another character building option)
Good thing Monks specify that you don't get to use Martial Arts while holding a shield, otherwise you'd have the "really overpowered" concept of a barbarian multiclassing into monk for the Con Unarmored Defense with a shield.
I miss the old background with the fantasy swag on the walls.
I assume the jump point for monks is going to be level 0.
(or possibly level 4-5 somewhere)
I don't know if it was mentioned by someone but Clerics get their channel divinity at lvl 2, not 1.
My dyslexia made me read the thumb nail as mor-tickle-ass
Interesting. Well I have 2 x Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerers. One is pure sorc the other dips into ranger at lvl 3 to yoink Drake Warden sub class. So basically.. hang on: Im a Topaz dragonborn with Amethyst Draconic Bloodline and having a trusty Emerald drake at my side 😊 Trying to theme my spells around what my heritage dragons are known for: Water, necrotic spells, force spells, teleport/ blink etc. My drake backs up with psychic stuff. It solid! Just copypasta whats written around Gem dragonborns from Fizban and jam it into the list regarding Draconic bloodline options from the kinda outdated Players handbook.
it sounds good thematically, but.
You need dex 13, wis 13, cha 13, and your dragon pet kinda needs ranger levels.
So I have a few questions.
At what level did this character start? Did you have to play it from level 1 all the way?
Did you roll for your stats?
If ranger doesn't have anything else that is essential to the character besides the drake companion, then a chain pact warlock (3+) with a pseudodragon familiar would probably be a little more feasible and valuable from a mechanical perspective [only requires cha, gets you 2 valuable invocations, two 2nd level slots/short rest and a patron boon]. It multiclasses well with sorcerer and you could reflavor your warlock patron as an ancient wyrm of one of those dragon types.
Could dump warlock at 3 and focus on sorcerer levels. Or you could dump sorcerer at 1 or 3 and still get a limited flight via genie warlock (6) if that is important to the character, and the genie vessel could be like an emerald faberge egg.
I don't like jumping point. I mean depending on what you are aiming at those jumping point can change.
Barbarian, ranger, fighter, paladin easy jumping point is 4, but you want one of them to be at least 5. and if you want some defense, might as well bring paladin to 6 for his aura, and depending on your subclass, 7 might be good, and while being at 7 might as well go 8 for the feat
If you want a full spellcaster, you need at least 17 level in the same spellcaster class to gain a 9th level spell (especially for wizard/sorcerer, Wish is so much better then any upcasted level 8th spell) making the only possible jumping point for any multiclass to be 1-2 or 3. I love sorcerer 17/wizard diviner2, it give you some extra spell (solving one problem with with sorcerer), and portent is always good.
Sorcerer 17, bard 3 (especially eloquence) is also super fun, being able to reduce the saving throw of the enemie
Sorcerer 17/cleric1/wizard2 might be really fun but the 13 in Wisdom AND Intellect will require sacrifice on your dex and constitution that you might not be willing to do
Then the question is when should you grab those level, I want sorcerer at level 1 for proficiency constitution for sure. then I grab my 3 bard level for all the utility and bardic inspiration during my entire carreer, but I'll gain fireball at level 8? and upcasting burning hand doesn't feel the same.
Or I B-Line for Sorcerer 17 grab wish at level 17, then grab those 3 bard level, giving my bardic inspiration and the other great utility really late game,
Those 2 wizard level you don't want to take them at level 17 since once you inscribe shield and absorb element in your wizard spell book, you want to remove them from your sorcerer known list for higher level spells. And portent will be really useful early game before encountering all those legendary creature who even with portent will still resist my spell (and sorcerer do not have access to those no saving throw spell like maze and wall of force...)
My only rule for multiclassing is max of 3 levels worth of dip if playing a caster. 3 art/17 Wiz, 3 war/17 sor, etc..
If I start with 2 levels of Barbarian and then take 2 levels of Wizard then I take a short rest and need to recover hit points, what dice do I use? Do I have 2 d12s and 2 d6s? 4 d12s?
you have 2d12 + 2d6 hitdie to use as you see fit
(you can use them in whichever order you please)
2 and 2
That is probably the worst multi class combination possible.
@@CaitSith87 I think its just an example used to ask the question
@@CaitSith87 Not so terrible, the abjurer's ability could be useful to a barb