Let's Talk About Tube Preamps
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
- Ever wanted to know a little more about the differences between solid state and tube preamps? In this brief overview we'll look at tubes and some of the pros and cons of both.
Find out more at JoyOfVinyl.com
Written & Produced by Rick Coste
You can learn more about Rick and his work at RickCoste.com - เพลง
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Wonderful, down to earth presentation without pretentiousness.
This audio journey is a neverending one. We need to learn to control ourselves LOL. "This is it, I'm done upgrading". Two months later.....
Waiting to get a used Schiit Freya soon. Pairing with the Peachtree GaN400 to drive my Magnepans 1.7i. If you've never contemplated getting one, find a dealer near you and listen to them. Vinyl and Maggies are wonderful together!
I am extremely intrigued by the Maggies. I really should check them out!
I love acoustic, classical, jazz, and some ambient and soft electronic music. Picture Maggie speakers as allowing you to hear instruments as if no microphones were involved. Traditional box speakers, on the other hand, are like windows into the control room of a studio recording. While Maggie speakers may lack the punch and impact of cone speakers, they offer more realistic walls of sound. Instruments like piano, acoustic guitars, strings, and especially vocals, sound remarkably different ( and fuller, better IMHO) on Maggies compared to box speakers. It's truly worth seeking out a dealer. Just keep in mind that they require a generous amount of tender, loving wattage to truly shine, even at moderate volume levels. I believe a lifetime without having a pair of any of the models is not a life fully lived ( a bit of an exaggeration here, but true!). Will follow your channel.
@@Beyondabsence I think the wattage may be where my system (currently) will struggle with them. But they are beautiful.
But I wholeheartedly support your belief that achieving excellent sound doesn't have to be costly. However, by making wise and fiscally responsible choices with incremental upgrades, you can steadily enhance your system's performance and experience a little more with each step.
@@Beyondabsence That's a really excellent point.
EXCELLENT video! As a 50 year audio enthusiast, I enjoyed it very much. It is good to revisit ones history
sometime, thank you.
Thank you for the feedback! I'm glad you enjoyed it :)
I had to get my Friday fix from your channel. This was such a fun and educational video. You are a natural at conveying obscure and complex issues and turning it into entertainment!
Those older videos make me cringe 😂😂😂
I've started releasing on Sunday afternoons now. New job keeps me on my toes during the week. Cheers, Gabor!
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords make you cringe how? :) It was done flawlessly, just like the new ones.
Also, priorities :) New job vs satisfying an army of vinyl lovers?
@@rofgabor 😂😂😂 Great point on priorities!
My Dad bought a console stereo for my Mom for Christmas in 1961. Westinghouse, mahogany, Italian Provincial. It sounded fantastic. The loudness control (not volume) went up to 10, but we never put it up past 5 because the plates would rattle in the china cabinet and the pictures would dance on the wall.
I remember those old Westinghouse units!
My first tube amps were a pair of Quicksilver V4 monoblocks.
I purchased them along with an entire stereo system (I had nothing at the time).
When the store first played me a candidate system in my budget's range, I was not pleased with the sound quality. It was good, but not good enough.
The store's owner asked his salesperson to swap out one of the smaller tubes in the middle of each amp (I do not remember the specifics, because it was in 2006 and I no longer have those amps).
The improvement to the sound quality was dramatic. It made those amps (and the stereo) sing, and the store sold me that stereo system.
If they did not have those tubes handy, he would not have sold me that stereo.
By the way, I used to have a CD player that had a tube stage and a solid-state stage. You picked one, and listened. The solid-state stage sounded better. I almost never used the tube stage.
Would a different set of tubes have helped that CD player? Probably. But I'll never know. I never tried other tubes.
My pre-amp is tube based, and I am very happy with its sound quality. But there is always an upgrade just itching to be scratched. ;-)
The endless world of upgrades :) it’s a spider-web that I constantly get caught up in.
Thanks great video 70 years old and just getting into tube preamps will give it a try ,it sounds like fun and what the hell my hearing is still very good.
I wish I could say the same! Too much loud music in my youth and I'm paying for it now :)
Great video! I went from a Bellari twin tube to a Bellari solid state. I even tried tube rolling and I found the only thing I enjoyed was the warm glow of the tubes. I couldn't tell much difference from the sound, to be honest. It was fun to try out though to see if it was something I could get more enjoyment out of.
This is a great introductory video to the tube amp. Thanks!
Cheers, David! 🍺
My dad worked for English ealectric which then became GEC I remember the book about value's he won as a prize at school at 15 in 1957 . And ge hated value 's and refused to make me anything with them in and said the hay day of electronics was the 80's early 90's before circuit board tracks became to thin/small he said he put a soldering iron on a board once a the copper track lifted off the board . He also said people forget how often they were electrocuted when vales aged
Verry nice and comprehensive presentation. Can you make one related to subtle details affected by different tube preamp models? Also, would be nice if you reveal the model from this video :)
Hi! My current preamp is a tube phone pre-amp made by Pro-Ject (the S2).
I thought the phono stage in my Hafler was pretty sweet. But....I wanted to try a separate phono stage. Not being a big tube advocate, the iFi iPhono2 was getting pretty fantastic reviews by anyone who tried it. Weird little thing run by a wall wart. Lots of switches to tailor to your cart, be it MM of MC. I like that. Tube on the input stage only which means long service life of the tube. I kid you not, it's completely changed the sound of my system. So much so, that I'm saving up for an really nice Hana MC to let the iFi stretch its legs. One tube doesn't make me a 'tube guy', but I certainly think it's the right direction for a phono stage.
I've heard good things about the iFi unit. If you get the Hana let me know ow it all sounds.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords You bet. Being a drummer in college, I'm after the proper ring and decay from cymbals. This is something not correct with my present system. I'm hoping the iFi and the Hanna will give me that.
Closer now....did buy the Hana ML. Downloaded Fremer's guide on how to do SRA . But it requires a microscope gizmo and a software program plugged into your laptop. So more money to spend(does it ever end?). My TT hangs from the ceiling in its own cage, so it has to come down and sit on a table for all this to happen. The ML's are REALLY fussy about SRA. So Fremer says to shoot for 91-92 degrees with the gizmo.
No one can still explain why tubes sound distinctly different from solid state particularly in the preamp section.
This mystique is well deserved and a vacuum tube is the most analogue gain device there is. The only difference really is where current is made to flow.
In solid state, it is through silicone and in tubes, electrons flow in a vacuum space, no physical contact between two points, cathode to anode.
To my mind, this momentary absence of physical contact subjects the signal to the unexplained realm of quantum physics, the behavior of exotic sub atomic particles science is still trying to unravel.
Whatever is happening to the signal under cosmic laws, tubes are here to stay and will never cease to audibly amaze.
I like how you put that. I just ordered a pair of 12AT7s to replace a couple of the stock tubes in my amp. They are NOS tubes and these are described as "airy" and affect the presentation of the soundstage. The "airy" descriptor might speak to some of what you said about the absence of physical contact. Perhaps?
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords it's ironic that sound can't even travel in a vacuum.
Here's another food for thought. Why is it that LP pressings of the 50s till late 60s, even monos, have such an eerie presence? They are the most natural sounding records you'll ever hear, US and UK records.
Sure the engineers were the most seriously good but don't forget that every piece of recording equipment back then were pure tube!
All the studios were still using tube equipment and haven't transitioned to transistors, is why.
Digital is great but when it came and completely waylaid analog equipment, I feel we didn't necessarily progress because analog technology wasn't given the same funding to develop its full potential. We haven't fully explored analog technology. Ironic again since nature is analog.
Btw, 12AUs are one of my favorites. Tube roll as much as you can. I even sub ATs and AXs just out of curiousity. As for the air, definitely, only an analog device can fully capture the nuances of nature.
Just like a top of the line Nikon DSLR camera cannot compete with a Hasselblad film picture quality.
@@sonusancti Love the insight!
I just realized I said 12AU7s and meant to say 12AT7s (Telefunken). I'll let you know how they sound when they come in.
In my long search for a preamp I took the leap and got the Pro Ject Phono Tube Box S2 like yours. After only playing about 5 records I knew it was a keeper and it's not broke in yet. In all honesty when I was listening to a 30 year old Ricky Scaggs record it sounded so good I got a bit emotional 😢 But to my frustration there is a low level buzzing sound that you don't hear when the music is playing. When I touch the tone arm it goes away, wish I could figure this mystery out.
Are you using the ground at the back of the preamp? You might try an RCA cable with an included ground wire. That might solve it. An example is this: amzn.to/3NYfZOb
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I am using the ground but still there. Using my old ART preamp it doesn't do this. I even took it in to be looked at and the repair guy said he couldn't find anything wrong. Before I got the Pro Ject, I tried a Audio Technica and there was no noise at all. Thought about trying rolling the tubes, hoping that might solve it.
Here late to this comment, have you tried another tube for comparison? if not already
Great overview !
Someone I know who is really into vinyl says EAR phono pre is excellent. I decided to for Project tube S2.
The EAR is an expensive little unit but a great one (from what I've heard as well). Like you, I went with the S2. Rolled the tubes twice and enjoying it.
I have a separate system setup and have been using a tube preamp with a external SS phono preamp since 2002. My current tube preamp is a Schiit Audio Freya+ and the phono preamp is a Lounge Audio LCR Silver. So I get the tube benefits when playing CDs and SACDs.
Great video! I immediately looked for the RCA 5751 tubes you mentioned, but they were quite expensive. Are there some other brands you could recommend? I am looking for options to change the tubes that came with my Fosi Audio Box X2.
Hi! I'm glad you didn't pull the trigger on the RCA. I don't believe they are compatible with the Fosi. A pair you might want to look for are the GE5654s (made my General Electric). They aren't expensive and will be a slight upgrade from the stock tubes - a little smoother.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords thank you so much for your answer!!!!!
I have a Fosi Box X2 as well. I purchased Riverstone 5654W matched pair, they perform well for me. You may like them too. I'm also looking at possibly getting some Mullard tubes, but the matched pair are basically the same price I paid for my FOSI LOL
Enjoyed as always your video. I am perplexed. Viewing and absorbing all of the videos I am in a quandary of what to do. I have a Marantz 2250B receiver I purchased in high school with a Phillips 212 turntable using a Stanton 681ee cartridge mm. The speakers 3 way home made with various band pass and high pass crossovers. The system sounds good depending upon the recordings. So EU pressed vinyl recording of Supertramp Crime of the Century album quite!. Take Five album great , Van Clyburn CD great . Tim Bowman great, Earl Klugh great others not so . I am left with Ok do I upgrade the receiver or just get an external phono tube amp like the Pro-ject 2. Any thoughts
Hey David! Yes! The Marantz 225 is a classic. If it's in good shape I'd hang onto that and start with the phono stage. The Pro-Ject tube is always a good choice to start with. There are others but I highly recommend that. Maybe someday look at replacing the amp, but it's an extremely good and respected amp you have there.
I assume you're talking about phono preamps. I went through the same thing trying to pick a pp. I decided to chuck what I heard and pick a much higher quality pp than you would think my cartridge warranted. I like an analog pp with turntables especially so I chose a tube pp that uses 3 tubes. They don't need to be matched and they dont have to be the same brand. They don't run very hot and these tubes last so maintenance is very minor. Soundwise it makes my mm cartridges sing.
Do you mind me asking what the tube pp you picked up is?
It's a used EAR 834 mm pp and I use ADC XLM, Nagaoka MP 110, and Soundsmith otello cartridges.
What you lose picking up from the record can never be replaced along the amplifier chain.
Informative at least, revelational moving forward as far as potential spending goes- I have tube components in my gear plethora- but I have too many other time expenditures to have to worry, observe, replace, watch reviews, make buying decisions,..on and on, etc.. I am going solid state all the way. I can get the most bang out of my buck (time-wise). If I can't make money from it as a hobby- which I don't like to meet allot of new people unless they reveal themselves to be value-added and unless on a pre-established business basis.. then I simply won't have enough oomph or time to take on a new hobby or anyone new to teach life to or invest allot in.
Thank you for an explanative video with great informative content!
I will be watching you.
Thanks!
I would teach a close friend anything. You don't know me, I don't know you- but in my opinion- and not "children", because they are innocent- about 75% of humanity isn't worth a @#$%!
Ya.
have a yamaha M60 amp need a pre amp will one of the cheap ali express tube pre amps w/ remote and tone controls work ? like a Bluetooth Tube Preamplifier Amplifiers 2 Channels HiFi 6H3N Tube Preamp for Speaker Sound Amplifier Audio Home Theater $60.00
Hi Jack. I'm not familiar with the preamp so looked it up. The one I saw was low on specs so it's hard to say if it would work. If you're looking for an inexpensive hybrid tube phone stage I would suggest the Fosi for just a little bit more - around $70 - amzn.to/3O1aldX
thx but the Fosi has no tone controls! @@TheJoyofVinylRecords
@@jackdale9249 Ahhh...true. I wasn't thinking about tone controls.
Thank you again ! 🎩✌️
Cheers, Williams!
almost all tube Phono preamp use passive RIAA Equalization while almost all Solid state use active RIAA Equalization. You can get a better RIAA EQ with SS.
I have some friends who say the same thing.
Not necessarily, but you do lose noise performance and headroom. Because of the lower gain of valve stages the benefits of feedback are lessened, and the RIAA may be challenging to 'tune', but if you succeed you should get better bandwidth and less distortion.
Cool video. You managed to not make it boring ;) great voice too! Quick question: what tube preamp do you use please? I have a dac and an amp (aiyima a07) that I feed my music to (no turntable though). I miss the warmth of the tube when I listen to blues rock of the 60s and 70s...thanks!
Thanks for the compliment! I do try to not overstay my welcome when it comes to trying to explain something. It's fun for me too.
The phono preamp I've been using is a Project S2 tube with a pair of NOS Mullard tubes. The stock tubes were fine but I wanted to smooth the sound out a bit more. First with a pair of RCA 5751, then the Mullards.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords thanks! Do you think the S2 would fit well in my setup (no vynil)? (laptop + dac/amp)
@@jd5787 Unfortunately not. TheS2 is strictly phono preamp
And often a tube preamp will use solid state devices for the MC input. Why? Noise floor. My phono pre-amps box gets no hotter than my solid state preamp. The solid state does have a preamp, phono amp and other bits in the box, while the tube phono amp has but 3 tubes (12ax7's). At the moment the tube preamp feeds the 100W solid state amps directly (it has an output level control) and sounds sweet. The RIAA of the tube amp is not as clinically flat as the solid state phono preamp (Self Elektor 2012) and the MM cartridge loading is not identical. And that is much as it sounds when John Williams plays guitar, more spacious, if maybe a little less precise.
Cheers, Malcolm! 🍺
Do they sell pre amps or amps with a 30 day return policy? no restocking fees or shipping fees?. I would like to replace sell my Marantz 7702mk2 and use my Ncore or Pascal amps with a blusound node and Schiit Freya + tube preamp or any other tube amp. Im wondering If I will hear a noticible difference with my Philharmonic bmr speakers.
Every place is different from my experience. I suspect, given the tubes, that once used it will affect how the vendor handles returns. I'd contact whomever you settle upon before buying to make sure you can test them out and return them within an acceptable amount of time. With any additions you may need a couple of weeks to know for sure if that component fits with your equipment.
Tubes add the human element ,sound
Yes sir, they do.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords and to @gage4375 : To use this analogy, tube amplifiers are like real models, while transistors are like mannequins. Amplifiers with Mosfets however, can sometimes sound as good as tubes to me. I'm biamping with tubes on midrange and treble with transistors on bass. I get the best of both worlds this way. Bipolar transistors on bass is deep tight and dimensional. High powered tube amps can do this also but are expensive. Bipolar transistors on mids and treble give me severe listener fatigue. Transistors amps sound spirited but tube amps have souls within!! They possess humanity.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I agree more than 100%.
"it never ends..." especially if you don't know what youre doing.
some reading and a tube tester and you actually have a chance to figure it out.
Thank You Rick.
Is that a thick
Massachusetts accent I detect in your voice? lol.
Yep! Got it from a town called Hanson outside of Brockton. Been decades but stuck with me. You can take the boy out of Mass but not Mass out of the boy. Ah well…
mmm.. I kind of got lost. Appears comparisons was about Preamps (SS & Tube). But then there was cut-away's of Primaluna's Integrated Amp?🤔
pffft preamp tubes need less maintenance than people think, usually paranoid audiophiles change them when they are at 90% or more of their lifetime and when they are in their optimal range for mumbo mojo audifool reasons. There are 12AX7 from decades old guitar amp that are still good. If we apply the same logic to cars they will be changing the motor oil every week.
Best comment here
I have an HMV from early 50's with original tubes. Still works, just a pity it's mono.
Awesome comment
You don't say how much a new tube will cost.
Hi Tom! That's very hard to say. A tube (depending on the brand and type) can run anywhere from $25 to a few hundred or well over a thousand if it's a very rare new old stock tube.
Iv had 12ax7s last 41yrs before . Power tubes not quite as long . I can handle tht . Ur milage may vary .
41 years! That has to be a record (no pun intended).
Let’s talk about new video! It’s been 4 months 😂
There will be more! Just been focusing on a book launch :)
Shame the project phono amplifier posing as a tube preamp actually has 2 op amps inside the tubes are just for effect as with the 16v power supply will never run a true tube amplifier. I had the project and did not rate it so I built a ear834 valve phono stage and it's like night and day the information it retrieves from the record and the soindstage is unreal. It has 3 12ax7 valves Matsushita Japan and they sound great
Exactly true about the Pro-Ject. Basically a tube buffer but a step above typical SS phono stages. The Tavish that I use is an all tube signal path.
I’m incredibly impressed that you built your own. Always wanted to do something like that. Maybe someday.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords you so should the great thing is you can choose your own componants and what you end up with is somthing so speciel and the what it does to the sound of your turntable is just incredible. i put it up against stages costing 0ver a thousand and it just wipes the floor in every way.and you get the satisfaction after to of building it yourself :-)
Electrons move most freely in a vacuum!
It's Audio
UMAMI Time! lol
I forgot I mentioned umami in that. Just did the same thing in a video for later this week. 😂
i believe youre talking about phono stage/phono amp not a preamp.
a preamp doesnt have to have an RIAA stage. most dont these dates.
if you say "preamp" without specifying "phono preamp" youre not talking about a phono stage.
Great point! I often neglect to state phono preamp when discussing the RIAA curve correction. I need to be more clearer when discussing preamps and differentiating them from phono preamps.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords whoever decided that a phono stage/phono amp/RIAA EQ amplifier should also be called a "phono preamp" made for some serious confusion.
Tube amps dont have massive heat sinks, dont have as many parts as transistor amps do, have less IHD than transistor amps, are louder at less wattage levels, have better definition, clarity, frequency response. I have two 3.5 monoblock amps with 2 tubes only built by me from a simple design. The amp volume comes up slowly when turned on, ( speaker saver feature) and decreases slowly when turned off, which a transistor amp cant do. Show me a transistor amp with just two stages that can bring a line level signal to loud enough to rock the house down, with 3.5 watts per channel, Good luck with that! 2 tubes with 4 triodes in push pull class A. And a transistor amp with class A is a good heater in the winter. Transistors will never have the clarity and definiton tubes do. That 1978 tube amp sounds better than my Onkyo. Ill fix a tube amp over a trashsistor amp anyday. They sound better thats all there is to it why they are still being made. If all that transistor amps were evaluated for Interharmodulation distortion, then people would know why when you turn the volume way up, why it has a gritty sound.
Very well said, Kevin! You're a man after my own heart 😎. Cheers!
Thankyou, Its good to see younger people falling in love with tubes!
@@kevinhamming4514 You are way too kind, Kevin. I dont feel young at 56 😂😂😂
Tube amps add an extra ingredient = DISTORTION! Your three things mentioned about SS pre-amps, is missing one very important thing = COST - tubes are VERY expensive, and require fairly regular replacement - every 4000hrs in the case of my ARC Ref3. So, every 4000hrs of on time, I must spend c£450. This does not exist in a SS amp, but few tube 'people' mention or acknowledge this continual outlay, and that's before we get to the unreliable aspect oof tube use, again which is rarely mentioned by you 'tube people'.
OMG - as soon as you suggested using tone controls to 'tune' a SS amp to your liking; it was an instant Thumbs Down I'm afraid!
Thank you for taking the time to comment Davy. And you're right - the cost of owning a tube amp is often left out (dare I say 95% of the time?). It's a good callout. I should do a follow-up video to set expectations on the possible costs.