"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years." -St John Macimovich of Shanghai and San Francisco
This man is an Orthodox priest and part of a certain jurisdiction that blesses and supports the Western Rite. If anyone of our Orthodox brothers here accuses Fr. Peter of "non-Orthodoxy" or even heresy, he accuses the bishop himself, to whom the father submits. The comments of some of the wisest here shock me and make me fear for Orthodoxy in America.
I have noticed much pride and not so much love and humbleness from Orthodox christians (perhaps especially ones from the us)...as if following Christ is to look down upon every other human that is not living "orthodox" like one does oneself...or a human who , God forbid is for example a devot Catholic...It make me sad. We are not to judge. Ever.
@henriettanovember4733 God meets people where they're at. We are to pray for them, not look at Western Rite Orthodox or Catholics like they're worse than demons.
What I like most about the Western Rite is how voluntary it is. The modern Western Orthodox movement has grown out of Western Christians wanting to return to Orthodoxy individually or on a parish-by-parish basis since the 19th century. Unlike the Eastern Catholic uniates, there has never been any geopolitics involved in renewing the Western Rite. It's simply the result of Western Orthodox Christians wanting to worship as their ancestors did in the fullness of the faith, and Eastern Rite bishops blessing the endeavor. May our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ bless it as well.
yes! Even though I don't mind the expression "Reverse Uniates" (even in the original Russian documents kept in England about a potential Western Rite if non-Juring Anglicans were to enter into union were entitled "Orthodox Unia") it definitely does not have the same horrid history of the Roman Catholic Uniates
No, our patriarchate has already agreed not to do that but rather to focus on reuniting with the Oriental Orthodox who have 4 distinct rites; which they of course would maintain upon reunion. The Assyrian rite is up for grabs though 😇
I was chrismated into The Orthodox Church at my western rite parish. I was very familiar with the Liturgy mostly because I was attending a trad parish when I was RC. It was so comfortable converting. I am blessed to have been able to become Orthodox and having familiarity.
I really like Western Rite. It's totally foreign to me as someone from the Byzantine Rite, since I've never known anything else, but It's really beautiful to see the different ways that Orthodox Christians are worshipping. I like Western hymns and tones, and I like the Western aesthetic also.
If you haven't already, you should visit a WR parish sometime just to experience it firsthand. It has a beauty of its own and while it serves a niche market, so to speak, it does so with the fullness of Orthodoxy and in a way that speaks deeply to some people. I know a few families that make a point of visiting a WR parish near me at least once a month.
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
@@momus2424 Well, it's not true that we only use the liturgy of St John Chrysostom, we use the liturgy of St. Basil ten times a year. But, let me try to understand, you're saying that the priest in this video is not an Orthodox priest? I thought the Western rite parishes were canonical and under the same bishops as the rest of us. I'm confused.
@@mement0_m0ri Don't be confused. He's incorrect. Even after the schism, the Orthodox Church used at least three rites. There was a Latin Orthodox monastery on Mt Athos as late as the 1300's that used the Latin rite of worship and followed the rule of St. Benedict. The Church of Antioch used the Syriac rite too. Both of those changed for the same reason: the crusades. Some monasteries on Mt Athos never recovered after the brutality of the 4th Crusade and the Church of Antioch in its exile to Constantinople became more Byzantine in nature. None of this has to do with any council "standardizing" the Church into a monoritual Church. This never happened. We lost the rites as a result of various schisms, wars, and conquests. It was a short period in the entire history of the Church that we had only only rite. An anomaly. One that is slowly going away as the Western Rite is being re-introduced thanks to western evangelism.
Just got back from a western rite monastery where we had liturgy in English and Latin as well as daily prayers chanted in Gregorian chant. It was awesome. I really appreciated it. I attend my western rite church and my Byzantine rite church alternatively during the week. I love the zeal of the Western rite.
I come from a Georgian Orthodox Church and can't imagine my Liturgy without Georgian polyphonic singing that was adopted from the local traditional folk singing. I'm so happy to hear that there is a Western rite that might feel like home for many Western Christians returning to its orthodox roots. BTW I have always been fascinated by Irish/British Christianity and its history and traditions. May all the orthodox saints from the west and east pray for us.
The Instagram reels and TH-cam short comments on this Father have been very abhorrent. He is literally an Orthodox Priest, A Father in the Orthodox priesthood, an administer of Orthodoxy in the West, and yet ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS are hating him so much! It's very disheartening. And yet people are wondering why the Catholic church doesn't reunite with the Orthodox. I mean just look at our reaction to an Orthodox priest who saves and wears a diffrent collar and we're tearing him to shreds. I really wonder how many people actually watched the full video. This whole thing reminds me of what Saint John Chrysostom said "Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor." Pray that the Eastern world understands how badly we in the West need the western rite of Orthodoxy
@@andersongoncalves3387 On whose authority do you accuse him of "errors"? Nothing he said goes against any Ecumenical Council, or against any canons, or against any teachings of Saints.
I came into the church through the eastern rite and was there for about a year and a half. I just moved to Houston and my new job is at a Western Rite Orthodox Church. Yes, it is different liturgically but it is beautiful in its own way. I am still learning and adapting but I think God is teaching me so much through it. I met Fr Peter when he came to the Western Rite conference in Katy, TX a couple weeks ago and he is so genuine, kind, and christ like. It’s okay to have a preference but not to personally attack a valid rite and/or their priests.
@@charleslasley2604 Yes you can. I’m also black and Orthodox. There is St. Joseph Orthodox Church (Eastern), St. George Orthodox Church (Eastern), St. Paul Orthodox Church (Western)
As a former Roman Catholic, watching the first minute of this and listening to the music brought back some fond memories as a child. Orthodox Liturgy, both Eastern and Western Rite Liturgy, is beyond earthly beauty. ☦️☦️☦️
20:03 To be a Western European American and to authentically delight in the heritage of one’s liturgical lineage is just as valid as the Eastern Europeans honoring theirs. I was received into the Orthodox Church via the Byzantine Rite, a love I will always cherish, yet being Italian, the Mass of St. Gregory harkens to my ancestral lineage that made me feel especially *home* - Christ is in our midst!
I was brought into the Orthodox Church via the Antiochian Eastern Rite. When I found out about the Western Rite, I decided to attend one of the annual Western Rite Conferences of the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate in order to see what it was all about from the horse's mouth, rather than hearsay on the web. Having attended, communed, and fellowshipped with them over several days, I believe I can safely say that the Antiochian Western Rite is indeed Orthodox Christian. The bread is leavened, Bishop John (their Eastern Rite auxilary bishop) was in attendance and participated in the worship, and they held both lay and clergy meetings to organize and unify the vicariate. The worst I can say about them is that some teased the other western rite vicariates (the same way one makes fun of the rival college football team), and that they are fellow human beings rather than angels.
As a former RC attendee of the Tridentine Mass and now a ROCOR Deacon, as someone who highly regards the Liturgy and its historical development and impact on the apprehension and confession of faith by the faithful, as a student of Church history both East and West, I would very much like to have a deep conversation with this Father Peter. I have many questions that I would like to ask for him to elaborate on, clarify, provide more information regarding. I also have several topics that I would challenge the Father on, not to argue necessarily the contrary of his points but that there are some things that I think need further critical analysis and that I think history has passed judgement on already, regarding specially some practices in Western piety and devotion. Roots of Orthodoxy, is this something that we can make happen? To be clear, my hierarchs bless the Western Rite and I am therefore in support of it as well as being of Irish, German, Italian heritage, I honor its ancient venerable Orthodoxy. What I foresee is maybe a part two to this video in which we could get into the weeds about Liturgical theology, dogmatic implications of popular piety, and also to go a little deeper into some of the histories that were mentioned but not addressed. In Christ, Deacon Daniel Watkins
One of the most ORTHODOX videos i have seen. One thing Father said comes to mind as i was reading through the live chat "we sit on our little computers, and we criticize one another... and we are tearing apart the Church. Our witness has to be Love. We stand on truth"
@@scottirey2507 Why convert a people and then give them a separate form of worship? Make a new rite? So that they are not united to the one holy catholic and apostolic church. But setting them up for failure, disunity and division
Brother.... this is not creating a "new rite", this is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church reclaiming what is rightfully hers. Watch the whole video.
@@momus2424 You have an issue with how the Apostles and the ancient Fathers evangelized adopting the ancient worship of Israel in the context of the New Covenant to the nations?
@@momus2424 The kind of attitude you propose is a departure from the ancient catholicity of the Church into something new. Orthodoxy absolutely cannot claim to be the ancient and original Christian Church while innovating new, faulty ideas such as yours. Thankfully, that is not the case and several Patriarchates participate in the restoration of the Western Rite.
@@scottirey2507 My brother in Christ. This is the situation with the western rite: During the feast day for the Sunday of Orthodoxy, when all of us are united in the Triumph of Orthodoxy against heresies. This great feast where we all should celebrate together. A priest from an "Eastern" Rite, will not know how to serve a liturgy in the "western" Rite way. This will prevent him and bishops and many clergy from Serving with people in that church. Likewise laypeople, will not know what is going on between churches if they are ever to visit Europe or Jerusalem. Or if laypeople from a WR visit another Orthodox church, they will not know what is going on. Why the disunity? why the division? why O brother are we separated like this, and cannot celebrate the same liturgy and the same feast days in our faith together? Why does western man, insist on being special and having his own way? why doesnt he do what the other Converts, the slavs, Japanese and Alaskan natives have done?
I pray West and East come together once more in unity as Christ intended to be an example of Christian unity. I also pray that the divisions within orthodoxy between Moscow, Constantinople and Alexandria are healed.
@@blockpartyvintage1568 True unity vs. Kumbaya "unity". Gio is praying for unity as Christ intended, so I assume they're in favor of the former and not the latter.
This was amazing. I’ve been Orthodox for about 4 years, but I’ve experienced many people having hangups with the Byzantine liturgy. My solution was “die to your preference”. His wisdom of not equating Byzantium with Orthodoxy honestly has the potential to bring so many more people into the fold. I attended my first western rite church on a trip as there is not one near me. The simple reality is that many people need the familiarity, so I believe the western rite would serve so many people well, especially many Protestant and Catholic converts. I pray the western rite grows in America.
Strange because most almost 90 % of the converts who attended Eastern Orthodox rite Divine Liturgy for the first time were amazed by its beauty and they immediately felt at home they testify it.. I don't know many to have had the same feelings with Western rite. On the contary they want to escape the Roman Latin rite remembrances at all costs
@@evans3922 right but you’re considering converts, not those who attended but did not convert. For example, there are many who do find beauty in the Latin rite. Also, consider that there may also be the reverse of what you say: Byzantine Catholics who want to escape the Byzantine rite remembrances at all cost. These are experiential and emotional hangups, not logical ones, so those who make decisions from either side purely based on their personal experience and negative associations with the other are both wrong. This priest outlines it well because he shows that the Church had both rites in the first millennium and they were and still are (for those who continued practicing the Latin Mass and were in communion with Orthodoxy) both considered Orthodox.
@@orthochap9124 this is incorrect... Even from history we know that when the Russians first visited Haghia Sophia in Constantinople and attended the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy they shouted in awe:we didn't know whether we are in Heaven or on earth... So sublime and spiritual was the Byzantine liturgy... They have visited before many other churches including Rome with its Latin Western rite but they didn't reacted such a way and that's why they decided to be baptised Orthodox by the Byzantines.. Regarding the Roman Catholic Byzantines as you say they are the Troyan horse of Papism.. Pope is interested in only one thing:as long as u bow to him u can have any rite u like he doesn't care that's why Roman Catholic Church has so many rites and monastic orders. Uniatrs are so much inconsistent to their beliefs they reject the Filioque and venerate st. Gregory Palamas in contrast to the Western rite Catholics and Pope sees it alright... Is this a serious church? No of course... And nobody dislikes the Byzantine rite because most of them are Eastern Catholics because they try to have both worlds goods they feel the beauty of the Orthodox Byzantine rite by they want to be in communion with Pope. Most of them in time realise that's vain and deceiving and become Eastern Orthodox. If what u say was true the Western rute Orthodox Churces would be flourishing but they are not...
@@evans3922 There are not many western rite churches, just as the percentage of Catholics who are eastern rite is minimal. So it is difficult to say what would happen hypothetically if we had a bunch more western rite Orthodox parishes. However we do know historically that St. Tikhon’s liturgy was adapted and approved by a synod of bishops for the sake of evangelizing those in the west, Overbeck is also one who developed a western liturgy approved by bishops for use prior to him.
@evans3922 seraphim rose said he felt immediately at home in the Russian Orthodox church. You're right many westerners feel immediately right at home in the eastern Orthodox too.
I agree with everything Father is saying, but I think the thing he's missed is the concern for continuity. It's not really a "Western Rite" if it isn't in continuity with a genuine Western tradition. It's actually still an Eastern tradition, but with Western externals. My concern is that Orthodoxy is about taking what your spiritual fathers give you and passing it along unchanged. They didn't give us a tradition that could be split apart and reworked and recombined. It seems presumptuous to me to think we can surgically remove Orthodoxy from its liturgics and transplant it into a dead tradition we only know about from books, and come out with something that's going to be salvific. We have a path already. It's well trod, we know it gives life. Why get inventive all of a sudden?
Agree, sketchy situation, even more so when, as far as I understand there’s no unified “Western Rite”, is it a revised Tridentine mass? Is it a revised Anglican mass? Both were created 6-7 centuries after those Churches were no longer Orthodox. I don’t mind the genuine efforts, as they seem to be evolving organically, and that’s what append with rites, but I have one big problem with it all: that Western Riters are subtly and not so subtly implying that we shouldn’t be going to Eastern Rite parishes and that those aren’t appropriate for our culture, even this priest seems to be implying it. Sorry, but if you give me the choice of a rite that has been practiced in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church without interruption, or these, I take the former. I’d even prefer the liturgy of St James. And isn’t it a little rich to throw the jab that as Americans we are accustomed to choosing, isn’t that what he did? (All that said, I would definitely attend a WR parish if it was the one closest to me).
But it wasn't a dead tradition. When the AWRV was getting started ~60 years ago, most of the priests were converts from the Roman Catholics or the Anglicans/Episcopalians. They took that living tradition with them, sloughed off the heresy while keeping what is good under the instruction of Orthodox fathers, and returned to the Orthodox foundation that survived through the ages within their respective traditions. Now, if you were talking about the Sarum rite, Gallican rite, or any of the other rites that stopped being used entirely , then you'd be right about the whole "dead tradition" bit. Those are by definition reconstructed liturgies, because they stopped being celebrated for centuries; There was no living continuation for them, save for whatever bits of the Liturgy of St. Gregory they influenced. In contrast, the liturgies of St. Gregory and St. Tikhon are derived from living traditions, however unorthodox they may have become over time.
Well, we have the Lorrah-Stowe Missal that contains a liturgy from prior to the schism and is Western. No reworking there, so let's go Full Celtic Shall we😂😂😂
I go to a antiochian western rite parish. A lot of folks think the western rite isn’t orthodox. I tell them to go talk to Bishop John or Metropolitan Saba.
Thing I can't get around is the devotion to stuff like the sacred heart. I've seen more Orthodox content against such devotions as they're also not necessary. Another thing is if you look on their western orthodox website, they show the rosary. They don't mention the Rule of the Theotokos at all which is what Orthodox do instead of the Catholic Rosary. One of the main differences being the Orthodox don't do imaginative contemplation on the mysteries. However, I can't see anywhere on the website where they talk or warn about this. It's just suspicious whenever I look at the details
@awake3083 From what I understand, the sacred heart devotion is related to a post schism Catholic saint. In the video, he does say something about it also being a thing preschism and then went the wrong direction post schism, but I have to look at that, I guess. As for the rosary, we just don't do the Roman Catholic Rosary. we do the rule of the Theotokos like Saint Seraphim of Sarov did. You can still call it the rosary, but it looks like their site is doing the exact same one as the Catholic one. Any western rite person feel free to explain this to me.
@@IN-pr3lw the rule of the Theotokos is literally the exact same prayer rule as the Rosary except instead of "mother of God" you say "Theotokos", you're making a mountain out of a molehill. You also miss the point entirely, the Rule of the Theotokos while it is absolutely a venerable prayer rule, still isn't WESTERN. In the context of the western rite, the Rule of the Theotokos doesn't make sense
I’m looking forward to this. I personally have no connection to the WR and frankly I personally prefer the Byzantine myself, but I also see that St. John the Wonder-Worker, St. Tikhon, St. Raphael of Brooklyn, and more saints have blessed and worked for the restoration of the WR. Yet I go online and laity and priests and abbots talk down on it and explain why it’s not necessary or even wrong, or those who try to say it can be okay say that it must be a reconstructed pre-schism liturgy even though St. Tikhon literally got his liturgy from Anglicanism. Don’t get me wrong, I understand people’s concern of error or confusion, and obviously this should be approached with wisdom and discernment (most of all by the hierarchs and pastors), but most of what people criticize is so superficial. Even if they do eventually get to true issues, the thrust of their reasoning is lost by all the nitpicking. Of course, many things are far beyond my comprehension, like to what extent there doesn’t need to be proskomedia, which I don’t understand and it’s above my pay grade anyways. It seems to me that one of the reasons the Holy Spirit is bringing back the WR (yeah, that’s right, it’s blessed by multiple jurisdictions and in practice and is blessed and was fought for by the saints, this is the move of the Holy Spirit) is so people will open their eyes to the fact that eastern vestments don’t make Orthodoxy and genuflection isn’t schismatic. Many people have become very superficial about this sort of thing. Lord have mercy on us all ☦️.
"O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? " and"They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them."
I love that verse because in the more accurate translations it says "you can tell the weather of the skies by the color of the noghts but you can't discern the Holiness in front of you." Which I like remind people that "Red in morning sailers warning; red at night sailors' delight." Is older than the Bible and most of Egyptian times knew it too.
St. John criticized it after experincing it, and the issues I see people bring up are very significant, as they pertain to issues of conciliar condemnation, such as the heretical "sacred heart" innovation. The Orthodox church is complete.
I appreciate the importance of having Western Rite Orthodoxy as a fully legitimate option. Have godchildren who find it a supreme blessing. As a long-time protestant church musician, the tangle between worship and performance music was an issue before becoming Orthodox. This may be a factor for any classically trained musician - most of our music, at least until it became unhappy, was church music or was founded on its harmonic principles. In the Eastern Rite I'm relieved to make Byzantine music that's completely set apart for worship and does not get used anywhere else. A constant reminder that I've left my original "home" for "heaven".
God bless Fr. Peter. I came to Orthodoxy in college at a Greek church still love it. Moved home to Texas and have found my home at St Peter’s WR. Hope to cross paths someday God bless
Forgive me Father, I didn’t recognize you with your mustache. It’s so good to see you and I continue to pray for you. May Christ our God bless you and your wonderful family. Iakovos.☦️☦️☦️
I am certain that if the WR grew substantially, more Catholic bishops and and priests would become Orthodox and contribute to shifting the narrative. Blessings.
I'm a new convert from Protestantism, I came into the church almost 2 and a half years ago and as I grow in the Orthodox faith, i realize how much I don't know. Thanks for sharing the beauty and history of the western rite, it was very humbling. Kyrie Eleison.
The other day I saw a Catholic TH-cam using the example of "the apostle Judas" to justify submission to the hierarchs of the Roman Catholic Church no matter how much they contradict the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the holy fathers. I posted a comment explaining that Judas never became an actual apostle and it sounds very wrong to call him 'the apostle Judas' let alone use him as a prototype for obedience to Clergymen. I was opposed by many Roman Catholics who attacked me and orthodoxy as heretic for daring saying that Judas wasn't a true apostle. They continued to attack me when I reminded that Jesus called him a demon. They stopped only when I cited the chapter when Jesus gave him some bread to design him as the traitor, this moment been described as when the devil entered in him and Jesus send him away befor giving the last commendment in his absence telling the Apostles that the world will recognise them by their love for eachother. Eachother without Judas.
@@luizfilipecouto1030 Well you call for unity and we don't have the same instrument for unity as Rome: The unity of the orthodox Church is by the fidelity to the orthodox faith, and it's main tool is the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. The unity of the Roman Catholic Church is a hierarchical one : Salvation by submission to the Roman Pontiff (Unam Sanctam) . So when you call for unity what do you expect will happen? Do you think that we will shall reject the orthodox faith to submit to the Roman Pontiff despite all the heterodox teachings and practices of the modernists? Or rather do you think that the Roman Church should return to the orthodox faith?
@@Hope_Boat And also: I will not debate you but you should research better what both the EO Church and RC Church considers instruments for unity. God bless you!
I would be very supportive of a deep initiative to reveive pre schism "gregorian" styles of western plainchant. So much of it is so beautiful. According to something I heard it mostly came from eastern monastery traditions that were brought westward.
Thank you for your succinct and reasonable request. Because I think that's the key to making a successful unified "Western Rite". Playing with the idea of introducing heretical devotions is heading in the opposite direction of that. Fr Peter made many good points in the first half or so of this video, but the second half (as well as the intro showing communion wafers) threw me for a massive loop. Anyway, thank you navel orange gazer, very cool. I see you all over online Orthodox content xD
this was a very informative video. there is not many videos like this out there about the western rite. But i will say, the sacred heart devotion is not among the capadocians or even St.John chrysostom. The sacred heart is very much nestorian and comes from a Roman Catholic nun who is a saint in there church, who was carving the name "jesus christ" all over her chest and done it multiple times and is derived from her "visions" of the sacred heart. So, honestly, I can understand and accept everything this priest has said except the sacred heart. We need to have proper context of many western practices. especially of post-schismatic traditions. not saying every post-schism tradition is bad, but we have to be very discerning on how they were delivered and the theology and the fruit of them. Thank you Johnathan for this wonderful interview!
@@SarahHodgins It is nestorian because it is taking something that is part of the human nature and separating really from the divine. Venerating the human nature rather than both divine and human from the divine person himself. Jay Dyer should have some videos on this that goes further into it.
Here in Australia we don’t have any choice, you have to attend Greek, Russian ect, as an Australian convert and there are many of us. To have access to Orthodox in Australia for natural Australia converts is the requirement to conform and take in ethnic customs and in some part ethnic identity from these Orthodox Churches from the outside Australia. We here in Australia need our own Orthodox Church that does not cling to another country ethnicity. Very appreciate that Orthodoxy (Christ own Church) came to our country through ethnic culture but something must change, from my experience if your not Greek looking at a Greek liturgy some clergy (particularly Bishops) treat you as second class Orthodox Christians, Glory to God for the Clergy in these Churches that practice a higher form of brotherly love that make it possible to continue to worship as Australia Orthodox in Ethnic Orthodox Churches in Australia.
Don't take it personally. As an Orthodox Serb, I experienced the same from the Russians. West and East fall together. Perhaps the only advantage of the Orthodox is that it happens openly.
Also Australian. It really does seem to be a flip of the coin of the location and jurisdiction whether the parish is welcoming. The only parish in my town is a Greek parish, the next closest is another Greek parish, then the next closest ones are in Canberra. My Greek parish was of course surprised and interested why I was turning up (being neither Orthodox nor Greek) but they were friendly and welcoming. I ended being quite literally the first convert ever in that parish (everyone else was cradle), and since then we've had more people inquiring, a half/half greek/english liturgy and we've got people from other jurisdictions attending now as well who have moved away from the cities. Unfortunately, I think the chances of Australia ever having its own Church (even if it's under an existing Patriarchate like Japan under Russia) are slim if trends continue as they are. We're a minority Christian-identifying country, actual practicing Christians would be less again, then Orthodox even less (even though we're the only "denomination" that saw growth last census) Our Australian culture, as a consequence I think of the Catholic and Anglican background of the country and the corruption and problems they created (rampant child abuse, terrible treatment of the indigenous people and trying to erase their culture etc.), has been increasingly poisoned against Christianity altogether and doesn't really seem to value even basic discussion of things like philosophy, morality and spirituality. Sport is literally our state religion (Main games/worship on Sunday, parades/processions through the cities for certain celebrations, athletes replace Saints as being moral examples for society and young people) and Indigenous paganism is protected by the state, with intentional evangelism (like sending clergy/monks to live among the people, learn their lifestyle, slowly introduce the faith, as was done in places like Alaska) not being possible.
@@thehammared5972 As an American with relatives in Australia. I am surprised when I visit by how the Orthodox Churches on Australia are less Orthodox and more of an ethnic club which sticks to their language and mostly hate English. Similar to jewish groups. It definitely happens in America, but there is more openness for converts because the Orthodox tradition in North America started with saint missionaries, not starting solely with preserving some ethnic group of immigrants. Australia doesn’t have these saints as examples. Orthodoxy in Australia was always a preservative aspect within refugee and immigrant communities. They wanted to preserve their culture and took up their religion as part of their culture. Where as orthodoxy in the Philippines, Japan, Thailand ect has a stronger missionary aspect even though it may be run by Greeks or Russians. A problem unique to countries like Australia, Brazil, Argentina, where most orthodox come from refugee communities. There is also a high prevalence of schismatics in these countries which shows their overall mindset.
Antiochian is much less like this tbh in my experience. Ofc there are some that have other cultures because those small communities are basically made up of only 1 group of people. Last Sunday while I was in San Diego I was in St. George Antiochan Church. It was people of Arabic decent. Half the Liturgy was done in Arabic. I was still allowed to recieve. The priest knew me priest, all was well. Orthodoxy is the best experience I've had with Christianity. I came from RCC and I Dabbled with Baptist and Non-Denom. Never going back. Orthodoxy makes me happy.
@@vanfjaI don't think we understand what a Christian is at all. I am talking about the period in the last 100 years. All Serbian holy men were mostly misunderstood by the Serbian Orthodox people during their lifetime, to say the least. They were often imprisoned, beaten, even killed. I see that it is the same with the Greeks. Often, even if they were highly educated, they were rejected, degraded, humiliated. So expecting some spiritual heights from people is impossible. On the other hand, the same people later proclaimed them saints.
I am an orthodox catechumen and my view is that at the end of the day it doesn’t matter which rite you practice within orthodoxy because no matter what it’s orthodox. I believe that it’s honestly a personal preference, I personally prefer the eastern rite because it’s what makes me feel closest to God, but why should I judge another who prefers the western rite? We both partake in the mystery and we both come together in true worship so why judge 🤷♂️
I have worshipped as a member in both WR and ER parishes. I maintain connections in both. Each of them speaks to me of heaven and opens up that border between the here-and-now and the hereafter in every Divine Liturgy. Each does it in a different way and has its own beauty. I don't need to compare and contrast them off one another other than for an intellectual exercise, perhaps. I know families who are primarily ER who attend a WR parish at least once a month because both styles of worship speak to them deeply. It's a beautiful thing.
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites. There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china. They all used the same liturgy and same rite. Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite. To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions But to somehow be Orthodox? This is progressive modernistic ecumenism This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
Im a RC to Orthodox convert of 8 years. I like the idea of the WR but have reservations about post-schism devotions I’ve noticed in the WR which seem to be mostly in the Antiochian WR parishes
As long as those post-schism devotions don't clash with actual dogma.... they are probably pretty safe, especially if a bishop has approved of them for Orthodox use in the western rite
@@Winaska To explain it in simple terms, the worship of the sacred heart turns the sacred heart into an object of worship, and thus it becomes something worshipped alongside Christ which is what St. Cyril warns us of: “For that which is co-worshipped with other is altogether other than that with which it is co-worshipped. But we are accustomed to worship Emmanuel with one worship, not severing from the Word the Body That was Personally united to Him. If the devotional prayers are directed to the sacred heart, then those prayers treat the heart, which is a part of Christ’s human nature, as a hypostasis, thus there is a confusion between object of worship which is proper to hypostasis and what is proper to be worshipped which is proper to nature. St. Cyril of Alexandria continuously nails Nestorius on this point, that by treating the natures of Christ as objects of worship he ends up arguing for there being two Christs: “and severing them into two you worship them, yea rather you co-worship, and think that you are freeing the Church from the charge of god-making, yourself engoddening a man, and not saying One Son even though He be not conceived of apart from His own flesh: for then would you worship Him unblamed, and will know where you were, as it is written, going astray from the doctrines of the truth.” Not to mention, since the sacred heart is distinct from the person of Christ, and is a part of human nature, it means that one can arguably worship other parts of Christ’s body, after all, why just stop at the heart? This means that the human nature as a whole can logically be worshipped in the Roman Catholic system, eucharistic adoration being an example of that, but that is precisely what St. Cyril of Alexandria and the 5th Ecumenical Council seek to avoid
@@Winaska To explain it in simple terms, the worship of the sacred heart turns the sacred heart into an object of worship, and thus it becomes something worshipped alongside Christ which is what St. Cyril warns us of: “For that which is co-worshipped with other is altogether other than that with which it is co-worshipped. But we are accustomed to worship Emmanuel with one worship, not severing from the Word the Body That was Personally united to Him.”[36] If the devotional prayers are directed to the sacred heart, then those prayers treat the heart, which is a part of Christ’s human nature, as a hypostasis, thus there is a confusion between object of worship which is proper to hypostasis and what is proper to be worshipped which is proper to nature. St. Cyril of Alexandria continuously nails Nestorius on this point, that by treating the natures of Christ as objects of worship he ends up arguing for there being two Christs: “and severing them into two you worship them, yea rather you co-worship, and think that you are freeing the Church from the charge of god-making, yourself engoddening a man, and not saying One Son even though He be not conceived of apart from His own flesh: for then would you worship Him unblamed, and will know where you were, as it is written, going astray from the doctrines of the truth.”[37] Not to mention, since the sacred heart is distinct from the person of Christ, and is a part of human nature, it means that one can arguably worship other parts of Christ’s body, after all, why just stop at the heart? This means that the human nature as a whole can logically be worshipped in the Roman Catholic system, eucharistic adoration being an example of that, but that is precisely what St. Cyril of Alexandria and the 5th Ecumenical Council seek to avoid.
What’s the problem if the devotion is completely Orthodox? The Church has baptized many things that came from outside the church. I don’t understand the double standard?
This guy cant get his facts straight. Altar rails are just in fact modern. The altar was always veiled in some way be it ciburiums or roodscreens. The unveiling of the altar is a counter reformation innovation.
Actually you are correct. I was looking into this, many mediaeval temples in Europe which still exist have remnants of the altar screen and even western sources explain they were removed as a counter reformation thing. Perhaps the early church in the 1st century didn’t always, but eventually the entire church adopted this and that is a tradition which is thrown away because of some academic desires to return to the early church practices which where in a completely different setting.
Thank you for this video. I believe this is the first time I've heard Orthodox chant in English on TH-cam. As WR Orthodox I do disagree with some points, but overall a great analysis and you've said many things I've wanted to say myself.
Not really... There are plenty of Eastern Orthodox rite chants in TH-cam... From Divine liturgy till pens from Mount Athos... How come u haven't heard till now?
@@evans3922 Whenever I search chants or hear chants on say someone's stream they are always in mumbly Greek or Russian. Pages and pages of Orthodox chants in foreign languages in search. Finding anything in English is next to impossible, even when you try to specify "English"..
I believe the Western Rite is Orthodox in their apostolic succession and right theology/teaching - however some things I can’t quite reconcile are the ways it seems to shirk some other church tradition. For instance, the lives of the saints. In the Eastern rite, their stories are told over and over again - the Synaxarion is read in our services, and with it many are inspired to live this holy life, and many to monasticism. Although I’m aware the Western rite encourages the Synaxarion and will tell saint stories, it isn’t imbedded into the church’s life and motions like the Eastern rite. And when we think of ancient traditions of the church and thought on importance, we know the liturgy and services are where many received the entirety of their knowledge on the faith. In this way, I can’t reconcile the two. Secondly, in my speaking with Western rite parishioners and former Western rite priests, there seems to be a loss of ancient prayer traditions - prayer rules as instructed by the priests, Jesus prayer, etc. To draw a thread between the two, it seems the Eastern rite is much more intimately connected to the saints and monastic tradition as borne out in their services and church life. Again, this is not to say the Western rite isn’t Orthodox - but it does seem to have a much different emphasis, and in that way seems disconnected from traditional ways of understanding saints, monasticism and prayer. For me personally, this is why I’m Eastern rite. God bless you.
I came into Orthodoxy in a Western Rite church. I went to an Eastern Rite church for a short while to get ma more complete understanding of Orthodoxy. I never had any doubt that Western Rite was any less Orthodox than the Eastern Rite. After rounding out my knowledge of Orthodoxy, I came home to my Western Rite church where I was Chrismated. I am at home now. I feel very fortunate that in my area, we have Pan-Orthodox Vespers on Sundays in Lent. Both Eastern and Western Rite churches participate in Pan-Orhtodox Vespers and we come to understand the brotherhood of East and West.
“Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.” -St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco. The Church has many branches. There is an Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, and there is a Western Orthodox Catholic Church (although now disfigured by Romish errors, but to be purified and restored by God's help). Within the Eastern Church there is a Greek, a Russian Church. Within the restored Orthodox Catholic Church of the West there will be an Italian, a Gallican, a Germanic, an Anglican Church. Every nationality will have its Catholic Orthodox Church according to its national usages, but based on the common Catholic doctrine and holy canons. -J. J. Overbeck
Thank you so much for making this video, its such an important message for many clergy and laymen. Glory to the triune god! Saint patrick pray for us ☦️
This is a very interesting and informative video on Western Rite Orthodoxy!! I would love to hear more about the Western Rite Orthodox Church, and even some suggestions on the books on the Western Rite as well as Western Rite orthodox prayer books
Many people in my western rite parish (this is my priest) use the St Ambrose prayer book made for western rite, but each person is encouraged to use the prayer book that they prefer. I use the Jordanville one from ROCOR, and I know others who use different ones.
This is my biggest struggle with the western rite and I'm curious what the Western Rites say about this. There is so much theology about the use of one loaf and everyone partaking of that one lamb. Of course, more than one lamb can be consecrated in the service but having a flat wafer, and each one not existing as a part of a whole, is the only thing I struggle to understand. Is the flat wafer an economia and would it be possible to do the western right with a lamb like the rest of us? The wafer instead of a risen lamb is my biggest hold up.
The wafer is made with yeast, it is just flattened into a wafer. The East and the West had different practices regarding the bread very early on, they are keeping with their ancient and venerable tradition, while still allowing it to be yeasted. In ROCOR they use the same loaf and communion style as we do, but that is not in keeping with the western tradition
@@dylanarmour6727 So, this is where I'm ignorant. Is it baked and then sliced thin? I bake bread and so it's one of those things where I'm looking at it and it doesn't look like a yeast rise.
@@zekedog1990 When we would bake it at our parish, we would bake it on a flat skillet and smash it down while baking so it cooks really thin, so each piece is baked separately
What a beautiful practice. I think its important to remember that the Western practice of using multiple flat lambs is very ancient and has been used by Orthodox Christians and saints for hundreds of years in the past. We have to embrace all Orthodox practices, even those of the earlier patristic practices.
@@Kauahdhdhd Most of them think they’re doing what’s truly right the best they know how. Pray that as the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of this matter through His Church that they won’t find themselves estranged by holding onto minutiae.
My brother in Christ. This is the situation with the western rite: During the feast day for the Sunday of Orthodoxy, when all of us are united in the Triumph of Orthodoxy against heresies. This great feast where we all should celebrate together. A priest from an "Eastern" Rite, will not know how to serve a liturgy in the "western" Rite way. This will prevent him and bishops and many clergy from Serving with people in that church. Likewise laypeople, will not know what is going on between churches if they are ever to visit Europe or Jerusalem. Or if laypeople from a WR visit another Orthodox church, they will not know what is going on. Why the disunity? why the division? why O brother are we separated like this, and cannot celebrate the same liturgy and the same feast days in our faith together? Why does western man, insist on being special and having his own way? why doesnt he do what the other Converts, the slavs, Japanese and Alaskan natives have done? why in the 21st century must we break the Catholic unity of Orthodoxy, in order to convert the western Americans? Is this not the pride of the westerners? how is this not innovation and ecumenism?
I do not doubt the sincerity and Orthodoxy of the people of the WR, but I feel quite skeptical of the supposed need of the whole movement along with the spiritual archeology that at least seems necessary for it to exist. But if bishops bless it, who am I to do anything but be obedient to it while expressing my reservations? The WR seems to simply "appear" and be justified by those who suggest that Eastern worship is too foreign to western people (which is absurd). Can WR worship be beautiful and contain the truth of Orthodoxy? This seems self-evidently possible and true. But does this justify the trouble caused by the revival of something that had gone to rest? Are we compelled to accept all those things that appear in the West that have never been a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church? I don't know. I appreciate Fr Peter's energy and love for the WR - and Christ- even if I feel like this movement (for such it is) causes real issues.
Its not really revival though. WR seems to be taking what's Orthodox about the West and running with it. For example the Mass of Saint Gregory isn't some dead ancient liturgy. Is it not still used in the RCC in some parishes?
The only thing I’ve noticed is that at some western rite parishes, there’s a tendency for some catholic converts to bring in sacred heart worship, which is blatantly Nestorian. Other than that, I have no problem with western rite
Father, thank you so much for your video. I am an ACNA (Anglican) priest and very much appreciated everything you had to say. I have one comment: you mentioned that before Vatican II it would have been sacrilege to receive the body of Christ in your hand and that our ancestors would be rolling in their graves. How do you reconcile that with St. Cyril of Jerusalem’s catechetical lectures in which he says, 21. In approaching therefore, come not with your wrists extended, or your fingers spread; but make your left hand a throne for the right, as for that which is to receive a King. And having hollowed your palm, receive the Body of Christ, saying over it, Amen. So then after having carefully hallowed your eyes by the touch of the Holy Body, partake of it; giving heed lest you lose any portion thereof ; for whatever you lose, is evidently a loss to you as it were from one of your own members. For tell me, if any one gave you grains of gold, would you not hold them with all carefulness, being on your guard against losing any of them, and suffering loss? Will you not then much more carefully keep watch, that not a crumb fall from you of what is more precious than gold and precious stones? 22. Then after you have partaken of the Body of Christ, draw near also to the Cup of His Blood; not stretching forth your hands, but bending , and saying with an air of worship and reverence, Amen , hallow yourself by partaking also of the Blood of Christ. And while the moisture is still upon your lips, touch it with your hands, and hallow your eyes and brow and the other organs of sense. Then wait for the prayer, and give thanks unto God, who has accounted you worthy of so great mysteries. Again, thank you, and may the Lord continue to bless you.
What are these "Real" and "not silly" and "extant" histories he keeps referencing time and again? He seems to be just saying random things without justifying any of it.
Eucharistic adoration is pre-schism, and was practiced by the likes of St. Victorian of Asan, St. Wenceslas the Martyr, St. Ulrich of Augsburg, St. Guthlac of Crowland, etc.
This dude is so crafty in his words, he calls orthodox who don’t agree with him not orthodox, basically says the schism didn’t happen and compares every papist heresy and innovation to “chanting style”
Westerners have been heretics for 1000+ years The reason they fell into heresy is pride And now they follow in the footsteps of their ancestors and continue in heresy Instead of humbly returning to the true faith and submitting to it They want to change it and subvert it. Put heretical traditions and liturgies into Orthodoxy
I wouldn’t go as far as you, but yes, he is very crafty in his words. I already picked out many historical inaccuracies which he just states as facts. I just wouldn’t trust what he says.
Absolutely fantastic video i am so happy this was made. Clearly many of the comments didnt watch the video at all or all the way through. Western orthodoxy is orthodoxy.
This was a wonderful talk, very enlightening. I was raised Roman Catholic. I had a question, do Orthodox Christisns pray the Stations of the Cross? I find this a very powerful, transforming practice of prayer, and so wanted to ask.
In the Western Rite, we do have Stations as a devotional practice, especially during Lent For those in the Eastern Rite: Stations are basically an akhathist with a procession around to 14 icons of the Passion. Very Orthodox!
God bless. In contemporary Roman Catholicism, devotions like the Rosary and Stations can slip into the kind of “sentimentality” Fr Peter describes, or with a kind of impressionistic use of imagination like Fr Paul describes. Not all Roman Catholics, no, but it can happen. When we do these devotions in the WR, they’re not done in that spirit. For example, at my WR parish, the Stations prayers are nearly all direct quotes from biblical or liturgical texts. Most of the service is meditating on selections of Passion passages from the OT or NT.
Yes western orthodox Christian ☦️ say the stations of the cross . I cried 😢 the first time I experienced this ,it was so beautiful. Father Peter delivers a beautiful mass
@@littlefishbigmountain Thank you for the recommendation. I did watch the video. I see there is much to learn about the differences in prayer practices.
Thanks for a good video, informative and interesting. Livechat... not so much. Lots of extremely important people in there as usual. I think i'v grown in understanding of how i am to continiue from this point on. I am on a quest, it is a fools quest but it is mine and i love it. Maby i'll get martyred. One can hope. God bless all
As a Roman Catholic of the Catholic Church, I am very curious and intrigued by this. Catholicism has its Eastern Churches as well, and they are fully "eastern" in their divine liturgies and other traditions. They were either never divided from the Church or returned to the Catholic Church centuries ago.
@JORA52 No, but if I ever want to attend a divine Liturgy, I can go an Eastern Catholic Church and it will fulfill my Sunday obligation as a fellow Catholic. I would also attend an Orthodox Liturgy if I were invited as a guest, with the same respect and reverence I show at the Latin Mass I attend.
What wondrous time we live where priests and bishops need to sit at the feet of laymen, catechumens and neophytes to learn from them. Some folks need to go read St. Ignatius of Antioch again and realize Orthodoxy is determined by who your bishop is and not what rite you practice.
some folks need to read about church history which is chock full of examples where monks and laymen held down orthodoxy and held to account many many clergy who had gone astray. authority worship is Latin.
I’m very very skeptical of anything western entering into orthodoxy. People seem to be really ignoring actual theological issues. Some questions here: Should the Body of Christ be leavened or unleavened? Both are acceptable then? Both are true? Should there be an iconostasis? Are both true? Does the form of worship matter? If not, then why not just be Protestant? These are very dangerous slopes. When Christ said “this is my body…” “this is my blood…” he was holding leavened bread. Or does it not matter then, does this theology not matter. I’m sure there are very many good natured Christians in these churches and I don’t deny that. But we are making a very bold decision to declare these preschismatic symptoms as sanctified. Forgive me if I am speaking too quickly. These things are very hard to discern.
Yes, form of worship matters. But there’s a big difference between having multiple ancient, reverent liturgical practices (remember, the Liturgy of St. Gregory is the most conservative liturgy we have!!!!) and throwing out everything ancient just to have something easy. As for the iconostasis, it developed in the 9th century. Christians worshiped for 8 centuries, in East and west alike, without the iconostasis. I love them too, but there aren’t what makes orthodoxy orthodox. Jesus Christ is.
Oh and on leaven! Both practices are ancient and beautiful, and both exist for good reason. There was variety in both East and west for a looong time on leaven.
There’s no need for a western rite. Just follow Orthodoxy and have your services, chanting and prayers in English. Why confuse matters? There are theological differences between the two. You cannot commingle them.
There’s no theological differences between the two. The Byzantine liturgy isn’t what’s been exclusively used in the early church. The church encompassed the Coptics, Syriacs, Latins, and Greeks at a point prior to the Great Schism and Chalcedonian schism. We shouldn’t be forsaking the liturgies that they used that go back to the apostles or the commemoration of saints they had. The Orthodox Church has a great number of western saints prior to the great schism that aren’t commemorated anymore along with liturgical traditions that express Orthodoxy in a way that isn’t expressed in the East. That’s not to say it’s any better or the East is any worse, it provides a wholistic presentation of what Orthodoxy is, because Orthodoxy is lived, not just read in books. That’s why liturgical diversity is important to maintain. We shouldn’t be forsaking what’s been in our tradition for a thousand years
@@frmyt1135 This is the creation of Uniatism No other race or Country has this issue. No other Orthodox church or country has their own rite or liturgy But yet prideful westerners and Americans somehow want their own in order to convert? Western rite liturgies have been heretical for 1000+ years. You can't just make them not heretical by editing them Western Christianity fell into heresy because of pride. And with this we see exactly why western people fell into heresy They don't have to humbly return to the faith. They want the faith to change to suit their interests. They want Orthodoxy to change in order to convert. And this western pride will continue to lead to heresy with this experiment
@@distracted900 Absolutely, and I’m half joking. I made this comment because of how Catholics love to say “Eastern Catholicism is Orthodoxy in communion with Rome.”
@@joelrobertsonmusic the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate is the organization who oversees these parishes. They are under Bishop John and Metropolitan Saba
I agree, mostly with what he said about how the church isn’t about appeasing our consumerism tendencies, but is it wrong to belong to a particular flavor of orthodoxy because a certain type of chanting speaks to you more? It can’t hurt. As long as you don’t hate other types of chanting because of it.
There already is in Edmonton, Canada. Look up Christ the King Orthodox Mission/Parish, it's an American Western Rite mission at an already established Antiochian Eastern Rite parish. Its been around since 2021, according to the OCA's website.
The use of leavened bread in Eucharist is not a matter of cultural inheritance. There is a canon of an Ecumenical Council, which condemns the use of unleavened bread in Eucharist. Such an ignorance of an orthodox priest is quite problematic.
WR Orthodox in the AWRV use **leavened** wafers, not the azimes of the Romans. The ROCOR WR uses Eastern prosphora, if I am not misinformed. Either way, there's nothing problematic here.
@Southlander1000 Unfortunately, there are two problematic issues: 1) The priest in question falsely presents the use of leavened bread in Eucharist as a matter of cultural inheritance!!! 2)In the beginning of the particular video, it is clearly presented that he uses bread, which is pressed down. Given that the bread is leavened, why is it pressed so as to seem like the unleavened bread? Isn't it such a tactic deceitful? After all, we are not Jesuits to deceive with a clear conscience!
Did you even watch the video? The western rite uses leavened bread loaf that’s just pressed flat and portioned out. It’s still from one unified loaf, leavened.
@@OrthodoxMidwife Unfortunately, there are two problematic issues: 1) The priest in question falsely presents the use of leavened bread in Eucharist as a matter of cultural inheritance!!! 2)In the beginning of the particular video, it is clearly presented that he uses bread, which is pressed down. Given that the bread is leavened, why is it pressed so as to seem like the unleavened bread? Isn't it such a tactic deceitful? After all, we are not Jesuits to deceive with a clear conscience!
@@dimitrispeiraias 1. Father didn't say anything wrong about that, the Patriarch of Antioch in 1054 said the exact same thing. He noted that communion with Rome could still exist even if they used unleavened bread, so long as they ceased their saying of the Filioque in the Creed. 2. This practice existed long before the schism of the West, there's nothing wrong with it
Father Bless! I very much enjoyed this video. Why though do WR priests (and even some eastern priests I have met) wear the plastic roman collar? It was developed by protestants and is used universally by roman catholics yet orthodox only ever wore cassocks in east and west long before the collar came about. Thanks again for the video!
And some modern Eastern clerical garb was influenced by Ottoman Turkish fashion. Early clerical vestments were inspired by pagan Roman ones. The Church baptizes lots of things. This is just something that can vary from culture to culture. A superficial issue, not a deep one. (Plus let’s be honest, the collar is what most Western people today associate with clergy, and plenty of Eastern clergy wear a collar)
One recurring argument I keep hearing against the WR is how liturgy is meant to be received and passed down from the Fathers, and shouldn't be dug up or "revived" I personally disagree with this, since the only other way for Orthodoxy to have a genuinely Western expression is reunion with Rome(yeah right) I like the Western rite, though. I hope it continues to grow in the West. I have a ROCOR WR parish about 3 hours away, thinking about visiting some day
The Western Rite is Uniatism just like the eastern Catholics. Joining heretical liturgies that have been heretics for 1000+ years. And now in the 21st century innovating and somehow making them Orthodox Literally no other race and country have their own liturgy and rite. This is an exclusive western and American phenomenon Forcing orthodoxy to change to suit them. Instead of changing for Orthodoxy There are so many issues here, -The pride of westerners -the Frankenstein edited Western Rite liturgies that are severely heretical and incoherent liturgically. -the breaking of Unity of Orthodox liturgics in the world -the adversarial attitude of east vs west being promoted -the innovation, modernism, and ecumenism -the disregard and breaking down of differences between Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy Etc
These comments remind me of Elder Paisios’ analogy of the fly and the bee. In this context, most of the people would be the fly. This is such a lengthy, informative and beautiful video about the Western Rite but people choose to pick out little parts and find issues with it as if invalidating everything he said. And these are other Orthodox Christian’s!
Wow, this interview was very enlightening, and I really appreciate it. Many of the criticisms that Fr. Peter gave towards the "eastern minded orthodox Christians in the west" I can see applied to me... very sobering, very genuine and this interview is challenging me and my views. I think this video is teaching me to humble myself and not be so hard on the WR. I will still stay absolutely firm on a few things. 1) I still very much do NOT like unleavened wafers as the sacred hosts of the eucharist. I think that is still scandalous that it's done in some (not all) WR parishes. 2) the Marian apparitions I completely disagree with Fr. Peter on. I understand the sentiment and his points on the Magi, and the other people who were led by the Holy Spirit ourside of Israel, but the Fatima and Guadalupe apparitions are very obviously Cold War era psyop campaigns, it was anti russia propaganda to stir up the christian world for the worse. 3) The Sacred Heart in the sense that the catholic devite thenselves to isnt christian, its prelest and nestorianism as cited in the Council of Ephesus the canon about how prayers and adoration is supposed to be diredted towards the whole Christ, not parts of Him. Other than those things, this video was splendid to watch and very convicting. Thank you Fr. Peter, you taught me a lot by this video. Edit: Referring back to Point #1 I made, I made that point halfway into the video. I got to the eucharist part of the video later. OOPSIE LMAO
@@asurian124because this is part of the authentic western tradition. See for example the Lanciano Eucharistic miracle from 700 AD - the host consecrated was flat.
@@asurian124because in our rite, we do not use a spoon. We use the ancient way of the priest placing it in our mouths directly from his hands. Imagine a congregation with 200 people, how would the priest have enough room on the altar for so many bite sized pieces of prosphora? In the Byzantine rite with the spoon, this “issue” is avoided because the lamb absorbs the wine and water and is easily scoopable into portions. Hopefully that helps a bit
It is the liturgical rite the Roman Catholics took from us when the schism happens and they fled from us. The rite is being taken back by Orthodoxy, but the false theology of the RCC is left behind.
@@Southlander1000this fella didn't mention leaven m8. Simply asked why it's in the form of a wafer, which is a totally legitimate question. Still have not received a good answer to it either. Just seems to be for the sake of looking more "western"
@Southlander1000 It's the body of Christ, not simple externals (which are still a part of Tradition anyway). Christ's body is risen and glorified, as such we leaven in prosphora to reflect this reality in the physical (external) realm
I also was confused cause it looks unleavened at a glance. But I don’t understand the wafer look a like too. And why not served on a spoon? Why would it be served by hand? Wouldn’t that risk crumbs falling and his body touching areas that it was not meant to? Wouldn’t that mean things have to be burned?
My wife heard just two weeks ago that there is no salvation outside the orthodox church and i think you know which orthodox church but i have also heard catholics say the same thing .
"Since We take great care to protect the religion of the godhead above in all things, (We order) that no one may carve or paint a statue of the Savior Christ in earth, in stone, or in marble placed on the ground; but whatsoever is found shall be destroyed. We specifically command that if anyone attempts anything contrary to Our laws, he shall be punished by the severest penalty. Given May 21, in the consulship of Hierius and Ardaburius (427)." (The Codex of Justinian, Vol. 1, Bk. 1, Title 8.1, p. 227-229, Cambridge University Press, 2022)
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"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years." -St John Macimovich of Shanghai and San Francisco
Ever read of his thoughts of the WR project later in life after his French WR project failed?
@@seffer777no will you provide please
@@seffer777please elaborate to us
It wasn’t intended in the way you mean it
@@evans3922 trying to respond, but it keeps failing to post
This man is an Orthodox priest and part of a certain jurisdiction that blesses and supports the Western Rite. If anyone of our Orthodox brothers here accuses Fr. Peter of "non-Orthodoxy" or even heresy, he accuses the bishop himself, to whom the father submits. The comments of some of the wisest here shock me and make me fear for Orthodoxy in America.
I have noticed much pride and not so much love and humbleness from Orthodox christians (perhaps especially ones from the us)...as if following Christ is to look down upon every other human that is not living "orthodox" like one does oneself...or a human who , God forbid is for example a devot Catholic...It make me sad. We are not to judge. Ever.
@henriettanovember4733 God meets people where they're at. We are to pray for them, not look at Western Rite Orthodox or Catholics like they're worse than demons.
What I like most about the Western Rite is how voluntary it is. The modern Western Orthodox movement has grown out of Western Christians wanting to return to Orthodoxy individually or on a parish-by-parish basis since the 19th century. Unlike the Eastern Catholic uniates, there has never been any geopolitics involved in renewing the Western Rite. It's simply the result of Western Orthodox Christians wanting to worship as their ancestors did in the fullness of the faith, and Eastern Rite bishops blessing the endeavor. May our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ bless it as well.
yes! Even though I don't mind the expression "Reverse Uniates" (even in the original Russian documents kept in England about a potential Western Rite if non-Juring Anglicans were to enter into union were entitled "Orthodox Unia") it definitely does not have the same horrid history of the Roman Catholic Uniates
Should an Alexandrian Orthodox Rite be created for former Oriental Orthodox?
No, our patriarchate has already agreed not to do that but rather to focus on reuniting with the Oriental Orthodox who have 4 distinct rites; which they of course would maintain upon reunion. The Assyrian rite is up for grabs though 😇
@@kmj2000yes
@@kmj2000 yes, and even further, Id argue that the Syriac Rite (including the liturgy of St James) and the Ethiopian rite should be restored as well
I was chrismated into The Orthodox Church at my western rite parish. I was very familiar with the Liturgy mostly because I was attending a trad parish when I was RC. It was so comfortable converting. I am blessed to have been able to become Orthodox and having familiarity.
Fr Peter is a wonderful priest and the parish is so welcoming and warm
I really like Western Rite. It's totally foreign to me as someone from the Byzantine Rite, since I've never known anything else, but It's really beautiful to see the different ways that Orthodox Christians are worshipping. I like Western hymns and tones, and I like the Western aesthetic also.
If you haven't already, you should visit a WR parish sometime just to experience it firsthand. It has a beauty of its own and while it serves a niche market, so to speak, it does so with the fullness of Orthodoxy and in a way that speaks deeply to some people. I know a few families that make a point of visiting a WR parish near me at least once a month.
I feel a cultural affinity with the western rite, but haven't been to one, just watched them on TH-cam.
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
@@momus2424 Well, it's not true that we only use the liturgy of St John Chrysostom, we use the liturgy of St. Basil ten times a year. But, let me try to understand, you're saying that the priest in this video is not an Orthodox priest? I thought the Western rite parishes were canonical and under the same bishops as the rest of us. I'm confused.
@@mement0_m0ri Don't be confused. He's incorrect. Even after the schism, the Orthodox Church used at least three rites. There was a Latin Orthodox monastery on Mt Athos as late as the 1300's that used the Latin rite of worship and followed the rule of St. Benedict. The Church of Antioch used the Syriac rite too. Both of those changed for the same reason: the crusades. Some monasteries on Mt Athos never recovered after the brutality of the 4th Crusade and the Church of Antioch in its exile to Constantinople became more Byzantine in nature. None of this has to do with any council "standardizing" the Church into a monoritual Church. This never happened. We lost the rites as a result of various schisms, wars, and conquests. It was a short period in the entire history of the Church that we had only only rite. An anomaly. One that is slowly going away as the Western Rite is being re-introduced thanks to western evangelism.
Just got back from a western rite monastery where we had liturgy in English and Latin as well as daily prayers chanted in Gregorian chant. It was awesome. I really appreciated it. I attend my western rite church and my Byzantine rite church alternatively during the week. I love the zeal of the Western rite.
I come from a Georgian Orthodox Church and can't imagine my Liturgy without Georgian polyphonic singing that was adopted from the local traditional folk singing. I'm so happy to hear that there is a Western rite that might feel like home for many Western Christians returning to its orthodox roots. BTW I have always been fascinated by Irish/British Christianity and its history and traditions. May all the orthodox saints from the west and east pray for us.
The Instagram reels and TH-cam short comments on this Father have been very abhorrent. He is literally an Orthodox Priest, A Father in the Orthodox priesthood, an administer of Orthodoxy in the West, and yet ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS are hating him so much! It's very disheartening.
And yet people are wondering why the Catholic church doesn't reunite with the Orthodox. I mean just look at our reaction to an Orthodox priest who saves and wears a diffrent collar and we're tearing him to shreds.
I really wonder how many people actually watched the full video. This whole thing reminds me of what Saint John Chrysostom said "Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor."
Pray that the Eastern world understands how badly we in the West need the western rite of Orthodoxy
Thank you.
Well said, brother
Well said🙏🏽🕊️☺️
We can point out his (many) errors but if people are being mean then that’s wrong
@@andersongoncalves3387 On whose authority do you accuse him of "errors"? Nothing he said goes against any Ecumenical Council, or against any canons, or against any teachings of Saints.
I came into the church through the eastern rite and was there for about a year and a half. I just moved to Houston and my new job is at a Western Rite Orthodox Church. Yes, it is different liturgically but it is beautiful in its own way. I am still learning and adapting but I think God is teaching me so much through it. I met Fr Peter when he came to the Western Rite conference in Katy, TX a couple weeks ago and he is so genuine, kind, and christ like. It’s okay to have a preference but not to personally attack a valid rite and/or their priests.
Please visit the Greek Orthodox Church in Houston and the wonderful Greek Festival
@@RadRat1138October 3-5!
As a black man can I be orthodox? I'm also in the Houston area.
@@charleslasley2604 for sure! Check out Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral. Welcome any time.
@@charleslasley2604 Yes you can. I’m also black and Orthodox. There is St. Joseph Orthodox Church (Eastern), St. George Orthodox Church (Eastern), St. Paul Orthodox Church (Western)
As a former Roman Catholic, watching the first minute of this and listening to the music brought back some fond memories as a child. Orthodox Liturgy, both Eastern and Western Rite Liturgy, is beyond earthly beauty.
☦️☦️☦️
This has been very interesting and insightful. Thank you for sharing this!
Awesome channel bro could you make a video on this too
@@Struggle_for_Christabsolutely! Once I have had a chance to do some research
@@living_orthodox I look forward to your video on this topic.
@@living_orthodox Father Patrick Ramsey is our Father at Eccles, Norfolk. He does Western Rite. You would enjoy talking with him, Father Mikhail.
@@dianeleeder3438 if you can tell me how to reach out to him, I’d be happy to talk to him :)
Beyond proud to call this man my priest. Thanks to this channel for sharing our Rite and our parish with the world ☦️
20:03 To be a Western European American and to authentically delight in the heritage of one’s liturgical lineage is just as valid as the Eastern Europeans honoring theirs. I was received into the Orthodox Church via the Byzantine Rite, a love I will always cherish, yet being Italian, the Mass of St. Gregory harkens to my ancestral lineage that made me feel especially *home* - Christ is in our midst!
Si assolutamente hai perfettamente ragione
I was brought into the Orthodox Church via the Antiochian Eastern Rite. When I found out about the Western Rite, I decided to attend one of the annual Western Rite Conferences of the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate in order to see what it was all about from the horse's mouth, rather than hearsay on the web. Having attended, communed, and fellowshipped with them over several days, I believe I can safely say that the Antiochian Western Rite is indeed Orthodox Christian.
The bread is leavened, Bishop John (their Eastern Rite auxilary bishop) was in attendance and participated in the worship, and they held both lay and clergy meetings to organize and unify the vicariate. The worst I can say about them is that some teased the other western rite vicariates (the same way one makes fun of the rival college football team), and that they are fellow human beings rather than angels.
Not interested. Good for you.
Yeast is legalistically added but the bread is not allowed to rise (the whole point of adding yeast). Therefore their waffers are unleavened
As a former RC attendee of the Tridentine Mass and now a ROCOR Deacon, as someone who highly regards the Liturgy and its historical development and impact on the apprehension and confession of faith by the faithful, as a student of Church history both East and West, I would very much like to have a deep conversation with this Father Peter. I have many questions that I would like to ask for him to elaborate on, clarify, provide more information regarding. I also have several topics that I would challenge the Father on, not to argue necessarily the contrary of his points but that there are some things that I think need further critical analysis and that I think history has passed judgement on already, regarding specially some practices in Western piety and devotion.
Roots of Orthodoxy, is this something that we can make happen?
To be clear, my hierarchs bless the Western Rite and I am therefore in support of it as well as being of Irish, German, Italian heritage, I honor its ancient venerable Orthodoxy.
What I foresee is maybe a part two to this video in which we could get into the weeds about Liturgical theology, dogmatic implications of popular piety, and also to go a little deeper into some of the histories that were mentioned but not addressed.
In Christ,
Deacon Daniel Watkins
Would love to see a discussion, Roots of Orthodoxy!
One of the most ORTHODOX videos i have seen. One thing Father said comes to mind as i was reading through the live chat "we sit on our little computers, and we criticize one another... and we are tearing apart the Church. Our witness has to be Love. We stand on truth"
@@scottirey2507
Why convert a people and then give them a separate form of worship? Make a new rite?
So that they are not united to the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
But setting them up for failure, disunity and division
Brother.... this is not creating a "new rite", this is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church reclaiming what is rightfully hers. Watch the whole video.
@@momus2424 You have an issue with how the Apostles and the ancient Fathers evangelized adopting the ancient worship of Israel in the context of the New Covenant to the nations?
@@momus2424 The kind of attitude you propose is a departure from the ancient catholicity of the Church into something new. Orthodoxy absolutely cannot claim to be the ancient and original Christian Church while innovating new, faulty ideas such as yours. Thankfully, that is not the case and several Patriarchates participate in the restoration of the Western Rite.
@@scottirey2507 My brother in Christ.
This is the situation with the western rite:
During the feast day for the Sunday of Orthodoxy, when all of us are united in the Triumph of Orthodoxy against heresies. This great feast where we all should celebrate together.
A priest from an "Eastern" Rite, will not know how to serve a liturgy in the "western" Rite way. This will prevent him and bishops and many clergy from Serving with people in that church.
Likewise laypeople, will not know what is going on between churches if they are ever to visit Europe or Jerusalem. Or if laypeople from a WR visit another Orthodox church, they will not know what is going on.
Why the disunity? why the division? why O brother are we separated like this, and cannot celebrate the same liturgy and the same feast days in our faith together?
Why does western man, insist on being special and having his own way? why doesnt he do what the other Converts, the slavs, Japanese and Alaskan natives have done?
Finally!! im Orthodox but I support western rite Orthodoxy because is my Tradition too.
I pray West and East come together once more in unity as Christ intended to be an example of Christian unity. I also pray that the divisions within orthodoxy between Moscow, Constantinople and Alexandria are healed.
Amen.
Be careful what you wish for
@@blockpartyvintage1568 True unity vs. Kumbaya "unity". Gio is praying for unity as Christ intended, so I assume they're in favor of the former and not the latter.
I pray this as well, that return to the unity of Christ
Truth > Unity
This is fascinating. The Orthodox world just keeps opening up for us
Yes... the Holy Ghost is moving
This was amazing. I’ve been Orthodox for about 4 years, but I’ve experienced many people having hangups with the Byzantine liturgy. My solution was “die to your preference”. His wisdom of not equating Byzantium with Orthodoxy honestly has the potential to bring so many more people into the fold.
I attended my first western rite church on a trip as there is not one near me. The simple reality is that many people need the familiarity, so I believe the western rite would serve so many people well, especially many Protestant and Catholic converts. I pray the western rite grows in America.
Strange because most almost 90 % of the converts who attended Eastern Orthodox rite Divine Liturgy for the first time were amazed by its beauty and they immediately felt at home they testify it.. I don't know many to have had the same feelings with Western rite. On the contary they want to escape the Roman Latin rite remembrances at all costs
@@evans3922 right but you’re considering converts, not those who attended but did not convert. For example, there are many who do find beauty in the Latin rite. Also, consider that there may also be the reverse of what you say: Byzantine Catholics who want to escape the Byzantine rite remembrances at all cost.
These are experiential and emotional hangups, not logical ones, so those who make decisions from either side purely based on their personal experience and negative associations with the other are both wrong.
This priest outlines it well because he shows that the Church had both rites in the first millennium and they were and still are (for those who continued practicing the Latin Mass and were in communion with Orthodoxy) both considered Orthodox.
@@orthochap9124 this is incorrect... Even from history we know that when the Russians first visited Haghia Sophia in Constantinople and attended the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy they shouted in awe:we didn't know whether we are in Heaven or on earth... So sublime and spiritual was the Byzantine liturgy... They have visited before many other churches including Rome with its Latin Western rite but they didn't reacted such a way and that's why they decided to be baptised Orthodox by the Byzantines..
Regarding the Roman Catholic Byzantines as you say they are the Troyan horse of Papism.. Pope is interested in only one thing:as long as u bow to him u can have any rite u like he doesn't care that's why Roman Catholic Church has so many rites and monastic orders. Uniatrs are so much inconsistent to their beliefs they reject the Filioque and venerate st. Gregory Palamas in contrast to the Western rite Catholics and Pope sees it alright... Is this a serious church? No of course... And nobody dislikes the Byzantine rite because most of them are Eastern Catholics because they try to have both worlds goods they feel the beauty of the Orthodox Byzantine rite by they want to be in communion with Pope. Most of them in time realise that's vain and deceiving and become Eastern Orthodox.
If what u say was true the Western rute Orthodox Churces would be flourishing but they are not...
@@evans3922 There are not many western rite churches, just as the percentage of Catholics who are eastern rite is minimal. So it is difficult to say what would happen hypothetically if we had a bunch more western rite Orthodox parishes. However we do know historically that St. Tikhon’s liturgy was adapted and approved by a synod of bishops for the sake of evangelizing those in the west, Overbeck is also one who developed a western liturgy approved by bishops for use prior to him.
@evans3922 seraphim rose said he felt immediately at home in the Russian Orthodox church. You're right many westerners feel immediately right at home in the eastern Orthodox too.
I agree with everything Father is saying, but I think the thing he's missed is the concern for continuity. It's not really a "Western Rite" if it isn't in continuity with a genuine Western tradition. It's actually still an Eastern tradition, but with Western externals.
My concern is that Orthodoxy is about taking what your spiritual fathers give you and passing it along unchanged. They didn't give us a tradition that could be split apart and reworked and recombined. It seems presumptuous to me to think we can surgically remove Orthodoxy from its liturgics and transplant it into a dead tradition we only know about from books, and come out with something that's going to be salvific. We have a path already. It's well trod, we know it gives life. Why get inventive all of a sudden?
Agree, sketchy situation, even more so when, as far as I understand there’s no unified “Western Rite”, is it a revised Tridentine mass? Is it a revised Anglican mass? Both were created 6-7 centuries after those Churches were no longer Orthodox.
I don’t mind the genuine efforts, as they seem to be evolving organically, and that’s what append with rites, but I have one big problem with it all: that Western Riters are subtly and not so subtly implying that we shouldn’t be going to Eastern Rite parishes and that those aren’t appropriate for our culture, even this priest seems to be implying it. Sorry, but if you give me the choice of a rite that has been practiced in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church without interruption, or these, I take the former. I’d even prefer the liturgy of St James. And isn’t it a little rich to throw the jab that as Americans we are accustomed to choosing, isn’t that what he did? (All that said, I would definitely attend a WR parish if it was the one closest to me).
@@henry.favelaThe Tridentine Mass is very similar to the liturgy used in pre 1054 Rome
But it wasn't a dead tradition. When the AWRV was getting started ~60 years ago, most of the priests were converts from the Roman Catholics or the Anglicans/Episcopalians. They took that living tradition with them, sloughed off the heresy while keeping what is good under the instruction of Orthodox fathers, and returned to the Orthodox foundation that survived through the ages within their respective traditions.
Now, if you were talking about the Sarum rite, Gallican rite, or any of the other rites that stopped being used entirely , then you'd be right about the whole "dead tradition" bit. Those are by definition reconstructed liturgies, because they stopped being celebrated for centuries; There was no living continuation for them, save for whatever bits of the Liturgy of St. Gregory they influenced. In contrast, the liturgies of St. Gregory and St. Tikhon are derived from living traditions, however unorthodox they may have become over time.
St Gregory's Liturgy is "Re Worked". I have never heard such a thing. You prefer it in Latin😂
Well, we have the Lorrah-Stowe Missal that contains a liturgy from prior to the schism and is Western. No reworking there, so let's go Full Celtic Shall we😂😂😂
I go to a antiochian western rite parish. A lot of folks think the western rite isn’t orthodox. I tell them to go talk to Bishop John or Metropolitan Saba.
Thing I can't get around is the devotion to stuff like the sacred heart. I've seen more Orthodox content against such devotions as they're also not necessary. Another thing is if you look on their western orthodox website, they show the rosary. They don't mention the Rule of the Theotokos at all which is what Orthodox do instead of the Catholic Rosary. One of the main differences being the Orthodox don't do imaginative contemplation on the mysteries. However, I can't see anywhere on the website where they talk or warn about this. It's just suspicious whenever I look at the details
@@IN-pr3lw There is nothing wrong with the Holy Rosary or the Sacred Heart of our Lord.
@awake3083 From what I understand, the sacred heart devotion is related to a post schism Catholic saint. In the video, he does say something about it also being a thing preschism and then went the wrong direction post schism, but I have to look at that, I guess. As for the rosary, we just don't do the Roman Catholic Rosary. we do the rule of the Theotokos like Saint Seraphim of Sarov did. You can still call it the rosary, but it looks like their site is doing the exact same one as the Catholic one. Any western rite person feel free to explain this to me.
@@IN-pr3lw the rule of the Theotokos is literally the exact same prayer rule as the Rosary except instead of "mother of God" you say "Theotokos", you're making a mountain out of a molehill. You also miss the point entirely, the Rule of the Theotokos while it is absolutely a venerable prayer rule, still isn't WESTERN. In the context of the western rite, the Rule of the Theotokos doesn't make sense
@@DositheiteChungusboom!
I’m looking forward to this. I personally have no connection to the WR and frankly I personally prefer the Byzantine myself, but I also see that St. John the Wonder-Worker, St. Tikhon, St. Raphael of Brooklyn, and more saints have blessed and worked for the restoration of the WR. Yet I go online and laity and priests and abbots talk down on it and explain why it’s not necessary or even wrong, or those who try to say it can be okay say that it must be a reconstructed pre-schism liturgy even though St. Tikhon literally got his liturgy from Anglicanism.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand people’s concern of error or confusion, and obviously this should be approached with wisdom and discernment (most of all by the hierarchs and pastors), but most of what people criticize is so superficial. Even if they do eventually get to true issues, the thrust of their reasoning is lost by all the nitpicking. Of course, many things are far beyond my comprehension, like to what extent there doesn’t need to be proskomedia, which I don’t understand and it’s above my pay grade anyways.
It seems to me that one of the reasons the Holy Spirit is bringing back the WR (yeah, that’s right, it’s blessed by multiple jurisdictions and in practice and is blessed and was fought for by the saints, this is the move of the Holy Spirit) is so people will open their eyes to the fact that eastern vestments don’t make Orthodoxy and genuflection isn’t schismatic. Many people have become very superficial about this sort of thing. Lord have mercy on us all ☦️.
"O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? " and"They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them."
@@almedhamorton4369
You’re the one denying the saints based on your own opinions?
@@littlefishbigmountain Um, I merely quoted SCRIPTURE. Keep kicking against the goads.....Learn what this means . (Quoting SCRIPTURE again)
I love that verse because in the more accurate translations it says "you can tell the weather of the skies by the color of the noghts but you can't discern the Holiness in front of you." Which I like remind people that "Red in morning sailers warning; red at night sailors' delight." Is older than the Bible and most of Egyptian times knew it too.
St. John criticized it after experincing it, and the issues I see people bring up are very significant, as they pertain to issues of conciliar condemnation, such as the heretical "sacred heart" innovation. The Orthodox church is complete.
I appreciate the importance of having Western Rite Orthodoxy as a fully legitimate option. Have godchildren who find it a supreme blessing.
As a long-time protestant church musician, the tangle between worship and performance music was an issue before becoming Orthodox. This may be a factor for any classically trained musician - most of our music, at least until it became unhappy, was church music or was founded on its harmonic principles.
In the Eastern Rite I'm relieved to make Byzantine music that's completely set apart for worship and does not get used anywhere else. A constant reminder that I've left my original "home" for "heaven".
God bless Fr. Peter. I came to Orthodoxy in college at a Greek church still love it. Moved home to Texas and have found my home at St Peter’s WR. Hope to cross paths someday
God bless
Forgive me Father, I didn’t recognize you with your mustache. It’s so good to see you and I continue to pray for you. May Christ our God bless you and your wonderful family. Iakovos.☦️☦️☦️
I am certain that if the WR grew substantially, more Catholic bishops and and priests would become Orthodox and contribute to shifting the narrative. Blessings.
I'm a new convert from Protestantism, I came into the church almost 2 and a half years ago and as I grow in the Orthodox faith, i realize how much I don't know. Thanks for sharing the beauty and history of the western rite, it was very humbling. Kyrie Eleison.
I love him❤ I've been a postulant in a orthodox western rite for 7 months!
As a Roman Catholic I find this video very informative. Great Content! Let us pray for Unity in God therms!
The other day I saw a Catholic TH-cam using the example of "the apostle Judas" to justify submission to the hierarchs of the Roman Catholic Church no matter how much they contradict the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the holy fathers. I posted a comment explaining that Judas never became an actual apostle and it sounds very wrong to call him 'the apostle Judas' let alone use him as a prototype for obedience to Clergymen.
I was opposed by many Roman Catholics who attacked me and orthodoxy as heretic for daring saying that Judas wasn't a true apostle. They continued to attack me when I reminded that Jesus called him a demon. They stopped only when I cited the chapter when Jesus gave him some bread to design him as the traitor, this moment been described as when the devil entered in him and Jesus send him away befor giving the last commendment in his absence telling the Apostles that the world will recognise them by their love for eachother.
Eachother without Judas.
@@Hope_Boat What does this have to do with my comment?
@@luizfilipecouto1030 Well you call for unity and we don't have the same instrument for unity as Rome:
The unity of the orthodox Church is by the fidelity to the orthodox faith, and it's main tool is the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
The unity of the Roman Catholic Church is a hierarchical one : Salvation by submission to the Roman Pontiff (Unam Sanctam) .
So when you call for unity what do you expect will happen?
Do you think that we will shall reject the orthodox faith to submit to the Roman Pontiff despite all the heterodox teachings and practices of the modernists?
Or rather do you think that the Roman Church should return to the orthodox faith?
@@Hope_Boat I don’t think of nothing. As I said i am calling for unity in God therms not in your therms or my therms.
@@Hope_Boat And also: I will not debate you but you should research better what both the EO Church and RC Church considers instruments for unity. God bless you!
I would be very supportive of a deep initiative to reveive pre schism "gregorian" styles of western plainchant. So much of it is so beautiful. According to something I heard it mostly came from eastern monastery traditions that were brought westward.
Thank you for your succinct and reasonable request. Because I think that's the key to making a successful unified "Western Rite". Playing with the idea of introducing heretical devotions is heading in the opposite direction of that. Fr Peter made many good points in the first half or so of this video, but the second half (as well as the intro showing communion wafers) threw me for a massive loop. Anyway, thank you navel orange gazer, very cool. I see you all over online Orthodox content xD
this was a very informative video. there is not many videos like this out there about the western rite. But i will say, the sacred heart devotion is not among the capadocians or even St.John chrysostom. The sacred heart is very much nestorian and comes from a Roman Catholic nun who is a saint in there church, who was carving the name "jesus christ" all over her chest and done it multiple times and is derived from her "visions" of the sacred heart. So, honestly, I can understand and accept everything this priest has said except the sacred heart. We need to have proper context of many western practices. especially of post-schismatic traditions. not saying every post-schism tradition is bad, but we have to be very discerning on how they were delivered and the theology and the fruit of them. Thank you Johnathan for this wonderful interview!
Yeah this is what's making me hesitant..
how can it be Nestorian? He hated the Mother of God ....but yes the Sacred Heart is very late medieval/early modern RC
@@SarahHodgins It is nestorian because it is taking something that is part of the human nature and separating really from the divine. Venerating the human nature rather than both divine and human from the divine person himself. Jay Dyer should have some videos on this that goes further into it.
Lovely video. I love my Western-Rite ORTHODOX parish. I can't wait to take part of the mysteries when I'm recieved soon...
Here in Australia we don’t have any choice, you have to attend Greek, Russian ect, as an Australian convert and there are many of us. To have access to Orthodox in Australia for natural Australia converts is the requirement to conform and take in ethnic customs and in some part ethnic identity from these Orthodox Churches from the outside Australia. We here in Australia need our own Orthodox Church that does not cling to another country ethnicity. Very appreciate that Orthodoxy (Christ own Church) came to our country through ethnic culture but something must change, from my experience if your not Greek looking at a Greek liturgy some clergy (particularly Bishops) treat you as second class Orthodox Christians, Glory to God for the Clergy in these Churches that practice a higher form of brotherly love that make it possible to continue to worship as Australia Orthodox in Ethnic Orthodox Churches in Australia.
Don't take it personally. As an Orthodox Serb, I experienced the same from the Russians. West and East fall together. Perhaps the only advantage of the Orthodox is that it happens openly.
Also Australian. It really does seem to be a flip of the coin of the location and jurisdiction whether the parish is welcoming. The only parish in my town is a Greek parish, the next closest is another Greek parish, then the next closest ones are in Canberra. My Greek parish was of course surprised and interested why I was turning up (being neither Orthodox nor Greek) but they were friendly and welcoming. I ended being quite literally the first convert ever in that parish (everyone else was cradle), and since then we've had more people inquiring, a half/half greek/english liturgy and we've got people from other jurisdictions attending now as well who have moved away from the cities.
Unfortunately, I think the chances of Australia ever having its own Church (even if it's under an existing Patriarchate like Japan under Russia) are slim if trends continue as they are. We're a minority Christian-identifying country, actual practicing Christians would be less again, then Orthodox even less (even though we're the only "denomination" that saw growth last census) Our Australian culture, as a consequence I think of the Catholic and Anglican background of the country and the corruption and problems they created (rampant child abuse, terrible treatment of the indigenous people and trying to erase their culture etc.), has been increasingly poisoned against Christianity altogether and doesn't really seem to value even basic discussion of things like philosophy, morality and spirituality. Sport is literally our state religion (Main games/worship on Sunday, parades/processions through the cities for certain celebrations, athletes replace Saints as being moral examples for society and young people) and Indigenous paganism is protected by the state, with intentional evangelism (like sending clergy/monks to live among the people, learn their lifestyle, slowly introduce the faith, as was done in places like Alaska) not being possible.
@@thehammared5972 As an American with relatives in Australia. I am surprised when I visit by how the Orthodox Churches on Australia are less Orthodox and more of an ethnic club which sticks to their language and mostly hate English. Similar to jewish groups. It definitely happens in America, but there is more openness for converts because the Orthodox tradition in North America started with saint missionaries, not starting solely with preserving some ethnic group of immigrants. Australia doesn’t have these saints as examples. Orthodoxy in Australia was always a preservative aspect within refugee and immigrant communities. They wanted to preserve their culture and took up their religion as part of their culture. Where as orthodoxy in the Philippines, Japan, Thailand ect has a stronger missionary aspect even though it may be run by Greeks or Russians. A problem unique to countries like Australia, Brazil, Argentina, where most orthodox come from refugee communities. There is also a high prevalence of schismatics in these countries which shows their overall mindset.
Antiochian is much less like this tbh in my experience. Ofc there are some that have other cultures because those small communities are basically made up of only 1 group of people. Last Sunday while I was in San Diego I was in St. George Antiochan Church. It was people of Arabic decent. Half the Liturgy was done in Arabic. I was still allowed to recieve. The priest knew me priest, all was well. Orthodoxy is the best experience I've had with Christianity. I came from RCC and I Dabbled with Baptist and Non-Denom. Never going back. Orthodoxy makes me happy.
@@vanfjaI don't think we understand what a Christian is at all. I am talking about the period in the last 100 years. All Serbian holy men were mostly misunderstood by the Serbian Orthodox people during their lifetime, to say the least. They were often imprisoned, beaten, even killed. I see that it is the same with the Greeks. Often, even if they were highly educated, they were rejected, degraded, humiliated. So expecting some spiritual heights from people is impossible. On the other hand, the same people later proclaimed them saints.
I am an orthodox catechumen and my view is that at the end of the day it doesn’t matter which rite you practice within orthodoxy because no matter what it’s orthodox. I believe that it’s honestly a personal preference, I personally prefer the eastern rite because it’s what makes me feel closest to God, but why should I judge another who prefers the western rite? We both partake in the mystery and we both come together in true worship so why judge 🤷♂️
yes there are some mistake WRO clergy make though
I have worshipped as a member in both WR and ER parishes. I maintain connections in both. Each of them speaks to me of heaven and opens up that border between the here-and-now and the hereafter in every Divine Liturgy. Each does it in a different way and has its own beauty. I don't need to compare and contrast them off one another other than for an intellectual exercise, perhaps. I know families who are primarily ER who attend a WR parish at least once a month because both styles of worship speak to them deeply. It's a beautiful thing.
@@pop_kiriland ERO make them as well, none are perfect
There is no "western" "eastern" Orthodox Rites.
There is only the Roman Orthodox liturgy of st. John chrysostom
In the beginning of christianity there used to be different "rites" but this was before the standardization and councils in christianity
When orthodox was spread to the slavs, it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to the varangian vikings it was the same rite
When orthodoxy was spread to japan, alaska, china.
They all used the same liturgy and same rite.
Now western mans pride and arrogance wants his own special rite.
To retain their protestant and Roman catholic traditions
But to somehow be Orthodox?
This is progressive modernistic ecumenism
This is not Traditional Orthodox Christianity
This is not what the saints and the councils and the history of the Orthodox church has done
Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, greece, georgia, serbia, alaska, china, japan, south america, etc
They all have the same 1, Orthodox liturgy and rite. IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
And yet the westerners want something new and to be special?
@@momus2424this is historically inaccurate
Father Peter is wonderful! I attended his parish a few times when I was stationed in Oklahoma!
A truthful critique of this video can be found at Traditional Western Orthodoxy.
This channel was PIVOTAL in my finding god and my faith. Thank you.
My god this is so beautiful. I've never heard about your community. Much love from a flock of the pope of Rome
The closest Western Rite church to me is over 8 hours away. I would love to attend a service one day.
Im a RC to Orthodox convert of 8 years. I like the idea of the WR but have reservations about post-schism devotions I’ve noticed in the WR which seem to be mostly in the Antiochian WR parishes
Preach it dude because some here can't understand the obvious
As long as those post-schism devotions don't clash with actual dogma.... they are probably pretty safe, especially if a bishop has approved of them for Orthodox use in the western rite
@@Winaska To explain it in simple terms, the worship of the sacred heart turns the sacred heart into an object of worship, and thus it becomes something worshipped alongside Christ which is what St. Cyril warns us of: “For that which is co-worshipped with other is altogether other than that with which it is co-worshipped. But we are accustomed to worship Emmanuel with one worship, not severing from the Word the Body That was Personally united to Him.
If the devotional prayers are directed to the sacred heart, then those prayers treat the heart, which is a part of Christ’s human nature, as a hypostasis, thus there is a confusion between object of worship which is proper to hypostasis and what is proper to be worshipped which is proper to nature. St. Cyril of Alexandria continuously nails Nestorius on this point, that by treating the natures of Christ as objects of worship he ends up arguing for there being two Christs: “and severing them into two you worship them, yea rather you co-worship, and think that you are freeing the Church from the charge of god-making, yourself engoddening a man, and not saying One Son even though He be not conceived of apart from His own flesh: for then would you worship Him unblamed, and will know where you were, as it is written, going astray from the doctrines of the truth.”
Not to mention, since the sacred heart is distinct from the person of Christ, and is a part of human nature, it means that one can arguably worship other parts of Christ’s body, after all, why just stop at the heart? This means that the human nature as a whole can logically be worshipped in the Roman Catholic system, eucharistic adoration being an example of that, but that is precisely what St. Cyril of Alexandria and the 5th Ecumenical Council seek to avoid
@@Winaska To explain it in simple terms, the worship of the sacred heart turns the sacred heart into an object of worship, and thus it becomes something worshipped alongside Christ which is what St. Cyril warns us of: “For that which is co-worshipped with other is altogether other than that with which it is co-worshipped. But we are accustomed to worship Emmanuel with one worship, not severing from the Word the Body That was Personally united to Him.”[36]
If the devotional prayers are directed to the sacred heart, then those prayers treat the heart, which is a part of Christ’s human nature, as a hypostasis, thus there is a confusion between object of worship which is proper to hypostasis and what is proper to be worshipped which is proper to nature. St. Cyril of Alexandria continuously nails Nestorius on this point, that by treating the natures of Christ as objects of worship he ends up arguing for there being two Christs: “and severing them into two you worship them, yea rather you co-worship, and think that you are freeing the Church from the charge of god-making, yourself engoddening a man, and not saying One Son even though He be not conceived of apart from His own flesh: for then would you worship Him unblamed, and will know where you were, as it is written, going astray from the doctrines of the truth.”[37]
Not to mention, since the sacred heart is distinct from the person of Christ, and is a part of human nature, it means that one can arguably worship other parts of Christ’s body, after all, why just stop at the heart? This means that the human nature as a whole can logically be worshipped in the Roman Catholic system, eucharistic adoration being an example of that, but that is precisely what St. Cyril of Alexandria and the 5th Ecumenical Council seek to avoid.
What’s the problem if the devotion is completely Orthodox? The Church has baptized many things that came from outside the church. I don’t understand the double standard?
I love that.
“Orthodoxy isn’t about orthodoxy it’s about Jesus Christ.”
This is circular is it not?
@@Chance_Rice no
While I am in a Byzantine parish, I got to attend a WR Compline service a few times recently and found it very beautiful.
This guy cant get his facts straight. Altar rails are just in fact modern. The altar was always veiled in some way be it ciburiums or roodscreens. The unveiling of the altar is a counter reformation innovation.
Actually you are correct. I was looking into this, many mediaeval temples in Europe which still exist have remnants of the altar screen and even western sources explain they were removed as a counter reformation thing. Perhaps the early church in the 1st century didn’t always, but eventually the entire church adopted this and that is a tradition which is thrown away because of some academic desires to return to the early church practices which where in a completely different setting.
Thank you for this video. I believe this is the first time I've heard Orthodox chant in English on TH-cam. As WR Orthodox I do disagree with some points, but overall a great analysis and you've said many things I've wanted to say myself.
Not really... There are plenty of Eastern Orthodox rite chants in TH-cam... From Divine liturgy till pens from Mount Athos... How come u haven't heard till now?
@@evans3922 Whenever I search chants or hear chants on say someone's stream they are always in mumbly Greek or Russian. Pages and pages of Orthodox chants in foreign languages in search. Finding anything in English is next to impossible, even when you try to specify "English"..
@@johnbeckham9881 I just found many... Search Orthodox liturgy English and it shows u many
@@johnbeckham9881 search Orthodox liturgy English shows plenty
Search orthy psalms English shows many
I have found them what are u talking about?
I believe the Western Rite is Orthodox in their apostolic succession and right theology/teaching - however some things I can’t quite reconcile are the ways it seems to shirk some other church tradition. For instance, the lives of the saints. In the Eastern rite, their stories are told over and over again - the Synaxarion is read in our services, and with it many are inspired to live this holy life, and many to monasticism. Although I’m aware the Western rite encourages the Synaxarion and will tell saint stories, it isn’t imbedded into the church’s life and motions like the Eastern rite. And when we think of ancient traditions of the church and thought on importance, we know the liturgy and services are where many received the entirety of their knowledge on the faith. In this way, I can’t reconcile the two. Secondly, in my speaking with Western rite parishioners and former Western rite priests, there seems to be a loss of ancient prayer traditions - prayer rules as instructed by the priests, Jesus prayer, etc. To draw a thread between the two, it seems the Eastern rite is much more intimately connected to the saints and monastic tradition as borne out in their services and church life. Again, this is not to say the Western rite isn’t Orthodox - but it does seem to have a much different emphasis, and in that way seems disconnected from traditional ways of understanding saints, monasticism and prayer. For me personally, this is why I’m Eastern rite. God bless you.
I came into Orthodoxy in a Western Rite church. I went to an Eastern Rite church for a short while to get ma more complete understanding of Orthodoxy. I never had any doubt that Western Rite was any less Orthodox than the Eastern Rite. After rounding out my knowledge of Orthodoxy, I came home to my Western Rite church where I was Chrismated. I am at home now. I feel very fortunate that in my area, we have Pan-Orthodox Vespers on Sundays in Lent. Both Eastern and Western Rite churches participate in Pan-Orhtodox Vespers and we come to understand the brotherhood of East and West.
“Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.” -St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco.
The Church has many branches. There is an Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, and there is a Western Orthodox Catholic Church (although now disfigured by Romish errors, but to be purified and restored by God's help). Within the Eastern Church there is a Greek, a Russian Church. Within the restored Orthodox Catholic Church of the West there will be an Italian, a Gallican, a Germanic, an Anglican Church. Every nationality will have its Catholic Orthodox Church according to its national usages, but based on the common Catholic doctrine and holy canons. -J. J. Overbeck
Thank you so much for making this video, its such an important message for many clergy and laymen.
Glory to the triune god!
Saint patrick pray for us ☦️
This is a very interesting and informative video on Western Rite Orthodoxy!! I would love to hear more about the Western Rite Orthodox Church, and even some suggestions on the books on the Western Rite as well as Western Rite orthodox prayer books
Many people in my western rite parish (this is my priest) use the St Ambrose prayer book made for western rite, but each person is encouraged to use the prayer book that they prefer. I use the Jordanville one from ROCOR, and I know others who use different ones.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It really illustrates the beauty of our Western Orthodox church in our American culture.
This is my biggest struggle with the western rite and I'm curious what the Western Rites say about this. There is so much theology about the use of one loaf and everyone partaking of that one lamb. Of course, more than one lamb can be consecrated in the service but having a flat wafer, and each one not existing as a part of a whole, is the only thing I struggle to understand. Is the flat wafer an economia and would it be possible to do the western right with a lamb like the rest of us? The wafer instead of a risen lamb is my biggest hold up.
The wafers are leavened and come from the same batch of bread
The wafer is made with yeast, it is just flattened into a wafer. The East and the West had different practices regarding the bread very early on, they are keeping with their ancient and venerable tradition, while still allowing it to be yeasted. In ROCOR they use the same loaf and communion style as we do, but that is not in keeping with the western tradition
@@dylanarmour6727 So, this is where I'm ignorant. Is it baked and then sliced thin? I bake bread and so it's one of those things where I'm looking at it and it doesn't look like a yeast rise.
@@zekedog1990 When we would bake it at our parish, we would bake it on a flat skillet and smash it down while baking so it cooks really thin, so each piece is baked separately
What a beautiful practice. I think its important to remember that the Western practice of using multiple flat lambs is very ancient and has been used by Orthodox Christians and saints for hundreds of years in the past. We have to embrace all Orthodox practices, even those of the earlier patristic practices.
My father was a Western Rite Orthodox priest so I should know this but I've NEVER heard such a thorough explanation.
R u still in the western rite
fascinating how many people in the live chat seemed to know more about orthodoxy than the bishops who preside over western rite churches lol
It’s because they don’t have humility and love. Just pray for them
@@Kauahdhdhd
Most of them think they’re doing what’s truly right the best they know how. Pray that as the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of this matter through His Church that they won’t find themselves estranged by holding onto minutiae.
@@Kauahdhdhd and you do?
@@simm1132hope you learn humility and repent
My brother in Christ.
This is the situation with the western rite:
During the feast day for the Sunday of Orthodoxy, when all of us are united in the Triumph of Orthodoxy against heresies. This great feast where we all should celebrate together.
A priest from an "Eastern" Rite, will not know how to serve a liturgy in the "western" Rite way. This will prevent him and bishops and many clergy from Serving with people in that church.
Likewise laypeople, will not know what is going on between churches if they are ever to visit Europe or Jerusalem. Or if laypeople from a WR visit another Orthodox church, they will not know what is going on.
Why the disunity? why the division? why O brother are we separated like this, and cannot celebrate the same liturgy and the same feast days in our faith together?
Why does western man, insist on being special and having his own way? why doesnt he do what the other Converts, the slavs, Japanese and Alaskan natives have done?
why in the 21st century must we break the Catholic unity of Orthodoxy, in order to convert the western Americans? Is this not the pride of the westerners? how is this not innovation and ecumenism?
Almost every day I pray that the Western Rite can come to my country.
I do not doubt the sincerity and Orthodoxy of the people of the WR, but I feel quite skeptical of the supposed need of the whole movement along with the spiritual archeology that at least seems necessary for it to exist. But if bishops bless it, who am I to do anything but be obedient to it while expressing my reservations? The WR seems to simply "appear" and be justified by those who suggest that Eastern worship is too foreign to western people (which is absurd). Can WR worship be beautiful and contain the truth of Orthodoxy? This seems self-evidently possible and true. But does this justify the trouble caused by the revival of something that had gone to rest? Are we compelled to accept all those things that appear in the West that have never been a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church? I don't know. I appreciate Fr Peter's energy and love for the WR - and Christ- even if I feel like this movement (for such it is) causes real issues.
#AllRitesMatter - Haven’t you heard? 🙃
@@StefanEmil13 oh no! You caught me! 😄
Its not really revival though. WR seems to be taking what's Orthodox about the West and running with it. For example the Mass of Saint Gregory isn't some dead ancient liturgy. Is it not still used in the RCC in some parishes?
Thank you for interviewing Fr. Peter!
I want nothing more but the body of Christ to be united like Christ intended why have we all went away from eachother it’s truly heart breaking
The only thing I’ve noticed is that at some western rite parishes, there’s a tendency for some catholic converts to bring in sacred heart worship, which is blatantly Nestorian. Other than that, I have no problem with western rite
God bless orthodoxy ❤
Father, thank you so much for your video. I am an ACNA (Anglican) priest and very much appreciated everything you had to say.
I have one comment: you mentioned that before Vatican II it would have been sacrilege to receive the body of Christ in your hand and that our ancestors would be rolling in their graves. How do you reconcile that with St. Cyril of Jerusalem’s catechetical lectures in which he says,
21. In approaching therefore, come not with your wrists extended, or your fingers spread; but make your left hand a throne for the right, as for that which is to receive a King. And having hollowed your palm, receive the Body of Christ, saying over it, Amen. So then after having carefully hallowed your eyes by the touch of the Holy Body, partake of it; giving heed lest you lose any portion thereof ; for whatever you lose, is evidently a loss to you as it were from one of your own members. For tell me, if any one gave you grains of gold, would you not hold them with all carefulness, being on your guard against losing any of them, and suffering loss? Will you not then much more carefully keep watch, that not a crumb fall from you of what is more precious than gold and precious stones?
22. Then after you have partaken of the Body of Christ, draw near also to the Cup of His Blood; not stretching forth your hands, but bending , and saying with an air of worship and reverence, Amen , hallow yourself by partaking also of the Blood of Christ. And while the moisture is still upon your lips, touch it with your hands, and hallow your eyes and brow and the other organs of sense. Then wait for the prayer, and give thanks unto God, who has accounted you worthy of so great mysteries.
Again, thank you, and may the Lord continue to bless you.
What are these "Real" and "not silly" and "extant" histories he keeps referencing time and again? He seems to be just saying random things without justifying any of it.
Eucharistic adoration is pre-schism, and was practiced by the likes of St. Victorian of Asan, St. Wenceslas the Martyr, St. Ulrich of Augsburg, St. Guthlac of Crowland, etc.
Do you have sources for this? I am very interested. Everything I have found suggests it only dates to the 12-13th centuries.
@@Southlander1000 Alphonsus Liguori mentions St. Wenceslaus practicing Eucharistic adoration: books.google.com/books?id=-iDGCgAAQBAJ&dq=wenceslaus+bohemia+blessed+sacrament&pg=PT12#v=onepage&q=wenceslaus%20bohemia%20blessed%20sacrament&f=false
@@Southlander1000 James Monti's book A Sense of the Sacred
This dude is so crafty in his words, he calls orthodox who don’t agree with him not orthodox, basically says the schism didn’t happen and compares every papist heresy and innovation to “chanting style”
They and the OCA also venerate Roman Catholic "saints."
Westerners have been heretics for 1000+ years
The reason they fell into heresy is pride
And now they follow in the footsteps of their ancestors and continue in heresy
Instead of humbly returning to the true faith and submitting to it
They want to change it and subvert it. Put heretical traditions and liturgies into Orthodoxy
I wouldn’t go as far as you, but yes, he is very crafty in his words. I already picked out many historical inaccuracies which he just states as facts. I just wouldn’t trust what he says.
Typical
@@Death2Compromiseno they dont
Idk how I ended up agreeing with a lot of what father said.
I feel like the Western Orthodox mind will be helpful for reunification
Not just reunification, to keep Eastern Orthodox Christians from straining at gnats (the collar in the video) and swallowing camels (Pharisaism)…
For what?
What a wonderful discussion, thank you Father!
Absolutely fantastic video i am so happy this was made. Clearly many of the comments didnt watch the video at all or all the way through. Western orthodoxy is orthodoxy.
This was a wonderful talk, very enlightening. I was raised Roman Catholic. I had a question, do Orthodox Christisns pray the Stations of the Cross? I find this a very powerful, transforming practice of prayer, and so wanted to ask.
In the Western Rite, we do have Stations as a devotional practice, especially during Lent
For those in the Eastern Rite: Stations are basically an akhathist with a procession around to 14 icons of the Passion. Very Orthodox!
Yes. Not the same way though. It’s similar with the Rosary. Look up Fr. Paul Truebenbach’s recent video on the Rosary for more info on what I mean
God bless. In contemporary Roman Catholicism, devotions like the Rosary and Stations can slip into the kind of “sentimentality” Fr Peter describes, or with a kind of impressionistic use of imagination like Fr Paul describes. Not all Roman Catholics, no, but it can happen.
When we do these devotions in the WR, they’re not done in that spirit. For example, at my WR parish, the Stations prayers are nearly all direct quotes from biblical or liturgical texts. Most of the service is meditating on selections of Passion passages from the OT or NT.
Yes western orthodox Christian ☦️ say the stations of the cross . I cried 😢 the first time I experienced this ,it was so beautiful. Father Peter delivers a beautiful mass
@@littlefishbigmountain Thank you for the recommendation. I did watch the video. I see there is much to learn about the differences in prayer practices.
Thanks for a good video, informative and interesting.
Livechat... not so much.
Lots of extremely important people in there as usual.
I think i'v grown in understanding of how i am to continiue from this point on.
I am on a quest, it is a fools quest but it is mine and i love it.
Maby i'll get martyred.
One can hope.
God bless all
As a Roman Catholic of the Catholic Church, I am very curious and intrigued by this. Catholicism has its Eastern Churches as well, and they are fully "eastern" in their divine liturgies and other traditions. They were either never divided from the Church or returned to the Catholic Church centuries ago.
Would u become orthodox if this rite is close to u
@JORA52 No, but if I ever want to attend a divine Liturgy, I can go an Eastern Catholic Church and it will fulfill my Sunday obligation as a fellow Catholic. I would also attend an Orthodox Liturgy if I were invited as a guest, with the same respect and reverence I show at the Latin Mass I attend.
Whichitaw falls? Might go. Like an hr from me
🎉
Please do , Father Peter is like no other. Truly a man of God. Mass at 10am and Matins at 9am
Definitely worth the drive!
Truth be told: I really enjoyed this video. Thank you for this.
What wondrous time we live where priests and bishops need to sit at the feet of laymen, catechumens and neophytes to learn from them.
Some folks need to go read St. Ignatius of Antioch again and realize Orthodoxy is determined by who your bishop is and not what rite you practice.
based
some folks need to read about church history which is chock full of examples where monks and laymen held down orthodoxy and held to account many many clergy who had gone astray. authority worship is Latin.
Seems like a nice guy. Comes off as complaining rather than explaining.
I’m very very skeptical of anything western entering into orthodoxy. People seem to be really ignoring actual theological issues. Some questions here: Should the Body of Christ be leavened or unleavened? Both are acceptable then? Both are true?
Should there be an iconostasis? Are both true?
Does the form of worship matter? If not, then why not just be Protestant? These are very dangerous slopes.
When Christ said “this is my body…” “this is my blood…” he was holding leavened bread. Or does it not matter then, does this theology not matter.
I’m sure there are very many good natured Christians in these churches and I don’t deny that. But we are making a very bold decision to declare these preschismatic symptoms as sanctified.
Forgive me if I am speaking too quickly. These things are very hard to discern.
Yes, form of worship matters. But there’s a big difference between having multiple ancient, reverent liturgical practices (remember, the Liturgy of St. Gregory is the most conservative liturgy we have!!!!) and throwing out everything ancient just to have something easy.
As for the iconostasis, it developed in the 9th century. Christians worshiped for 8 centuries, in East and west alike, without the iconostasis. I love them too, but there aren’t what makes orthodoxy orthodox. Jesus Christ is.
Oh and on leaven! Both practices are ancient and beautiful, and both exist for good reason. There was variety in both East and west for a looong time on leaven.
The Eucharist is leavened, but it is flattened in the baking process so that is a non issue.
@camp408962 why do they flatten it?
@@IN-pr3lwthat is the tradition in the west to have flattened wafers
God bless you, Father Peter! Stay strong. The attacks are sure to come!
I have grown to love the Western Rite, and I wish I could be more involved.
There’s no need for a western rite. Just follow Orthodoxy and have your services, chanting and prayers in English. Why confuse matters? There are theological differences between the two. You cannot commingle them.
There’s no theological differences between the two. The Byzantine liturgy isn’t what’s been exclusively used in the early church. The church encompassed the Coptics, Syriacs, Latins, and Greeks at a point prior to the Great Schism and Chalcedonian schism. We shouldn’t be forsaking the liturgies that they used that go back to the apostles or the commemoration of saints they had.
The Orthodox Church has a great number of western saints prior to the great schism that aren’t commemorated anymore along with liturgical traditions that express Orthodoxy in a way that isn’t expressed in the East. That’s not to say it’s any better or the East is any worse, it provides a wholistic presentation of what Orthodoxy is, because Orthodoxy is lived, not just read in books.
That’s why liturgical diversity is important to maintain. We shouldn’t be forsaking what’s been in our tradition for a thousand years
So, what the problem with following Orthodoxy and have a western rite
@@Alexander_Fuscinianusbecause everything this “priest” is saying is like the words of a snake
@@Orthodogehe is a priest in the Antiochian Archdiocese and there is nothing snake about what he is saying
@@frmyt1135
This is the creation of Uniatism
No other race or Country has this issue.
No other Orthodox church or country has their own rite or liturgy
But yet prideful westerners and Americans somehow want their own in order to convert?
Western rite liturgies have been heretical for 1000+ years.
You can't just make them not heretical by editing them
Western Christianity fell into heresy because of pride.
And with this we see exactly why western people fell into heresy
They don't have to humbly return to the faith. They want the faith to change to suit their interests. They want Orthodoxy to change in order to convert.
And this western pride will continue to lead to heresy with this experiment
Gonna start telling my Catholic buddies that you can be fully Roman Catholic but in communion with the Orthodox Church.
As long as you let them know they must be orthodox in belief!
@@distracted900 Absolutely, and I’m half joking. I made this comment because of how Catholics love to say “Eastern Catholicism is Orthodoxy in communion with Rome.”
How do we expand these western rite churches across America? Is there any place we can support the planting of more orthodox churches around America?
Yes. GOARCH
@@ProtestantismLeftBehind thank you!
@@ProtestantismLeftBehind
GOARCH doesn't have WR to my knowledge.
@@joelrobertsonmusic
I know the Antiochian archdiocese and ROCOR both support the WR
@@joelrobertsonmusic the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate is the organization who oversees these parishes. They are under Bishop John and Metropolitan Saba
I agree, mostly with what he said about how the church isn’t about appeasing our consumerism tendencies, but is it wrong to belong to a particular flavor of orthodoxy because a certain type of chanting speaks to you more? It can’t hurt. As long as you don’t hate other types of chanting because of it.
I want to see a church that serves both rites
There already is in Edmonton, Canada. Look up Christ the King Orthodox Mission/Parish, it's an American Western Rite mission at an already established Antiochian Eastern Rite parish. Its been around since 2021, according to the OCA's website.
@@KnoxEmDownwelp looks like I'm moving
@@raywest7222 lol
Imagine thinking that the Liturgical rites have all just stayed the same and have been the same since the very beginning.
The use of leavened bread in Eucharist is not a matter of cultural inheritance. There is a canon of an Ecumenical Council, which condemns the use of unleavened bread in Eucharist.
Such an ignorance of an orthodox priest is quite problematic.
WR Orthodox in the AWRV use **leavened** wafers, not the azimes of the Romans. The ROCOR WR uses Eastern prosphora, if I am not misinformed. Either way, there's nothing problematic here.
@Southlander1000 Unfortunately, there are two problematic issues:
1) The priest in question falsely presents the use of leavened bread in Eucharist as a matter of cultural inheritance!!!
2)In the beginning of the particular video, it is clearly presented that he uses bread, which is pressed down. Given that the bread is leavened, why is it pressed so as to seem like the unleavened bread? Isn't it such a tactic deceitful? After all, we are not Jesuits to deceive with a clear conscience!
Did you even watch the video? The western rite uses leavened bread loaf that’s just pressed flat and portioned out. It’s still from one unified loaf, leavened.
@@OrthodoxMidwife Unfortunately, there are two problematic issues:
1) The priest in question falsely presents the use of leavened bread in Eucharist as a matter of cultural inheritance!!!
2)In the beginning of the particular video, it is clearly presented that he uses bread, which is pressed down. Given that the bread is leavened, why is it pressed so as to seem like the unleavened bread? Isn't it such a tactic deceitful? After all, we are not Jesuits to deceive with a clear conscience!
@@dimitrispeiraias 1. Father didn't say anything wrong about that, the Patriarch of Antioch in 1054 said the exact same thing. He noted that communion with Rome could still exist even if they used unleavened bread, so long as they ceased their saying of the Filioque in the Creed.
2. This practice existed long before the schism of the West, there's nothing wrong with it
Liturgical diversity is good!
Father Bless! I very much enjoyed this video. Why though do WR priests (and even some eastern priests I have met) wear the plastic roman collar? It was developed by protestants and is used universally by roman catholics yet orthodox only ever wore cassocks in east and west long before the collar came about. Thanks again for the video!
And some modern Eastern clerical garb was influenced by Ottoman Turkish fashion. Early clerical vestments were inspired by pagan Roman ones. The Church baptizes lots of things. This is just something that can vary from culture to culture. A superficial issue, not a deep one.
(Plus let’s be honest, the collar is what most Western people today associate with clergy, and plenty of Eastern clergy wear a collar)
@@b.d.4746some people confuse Orthodox with lack of change. There's change, just not in the Faith.
He is wearing a cassock w/ a clerical collar
I've visited a Western Rite church and thought the Liturgy was beautiful.
One recurring argument I keep hearing against the WR is how liturgy is meant to be received and passed down from the Fathers, and shouldn't be dug up or "revived"
I personally disagree with this, since the only other way for Orthodoxy to have a genuinely Western expression is reunion with Rome(yeah right)
I like the Western rite, though. I hope it continues to grow in the West. I have a ROCOR WR parish about 3 hours away, thinking about visiting some day
The Western Rite is Uniatism just like the eastern Catholics.
Joining heretical liturgies that have been heretics for 1000+ years.
And now in the 21st century innovating and somehow making them Orthodox
Literally no other race and country have their own liturgy and rite.
This is an exclusive western and American phenomenon
Forcing orthodoxy to change to suit them. Instead of changing for Orthodoxy
There are so many issues here,
-The pride of westerners
-the Frankenstein edited Western Rite liturgies that are severely heretical and incoherent liturgically.
-the breaking of Unity of Orthodox liturgics in the world
-the adversarial attitude of east vs west being promoted
-the innovation, modernism, and ecumenism
-the disregard and breaking down of differences between Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy
Etc
These comments remind me of Elder Paisios’ analogy of the fly and the bee. In this context, most of the people would be the fly. This is such a lengthy, informative and beautiful video about the Western Rite but people choose to pick out little parts and find issues with it as if invalidating everything he said. And these are other Orthodox Christian’s!
What analogy did he use
Wow, this interview was very enlightening, and I really appreciate it. Many of the criticisms that Fr. Peter gave towards the "eastern minded orthodox Christians in the west" I can see applied to me... very sobering, very genuine and this interview is challenging me and my views. I think this video is teaching me to humble myself and not be so hard on the WR.
I will still stay absolutely firm on a few things. 1) I still very much do NOT like unleavened wafers as the sacred hosts of the eucharist. I think that is still scandalous that it's done in some (not all) WR parishes. 2) the Marian apparitions I completely disagree with Fr. Peter on. I understand the sentiment and his points on the Magi, and the other people who were led by the Holy Spirit ourside of Israel, but the Fatima and Guadalupe apparitions are very obviously Cold War era psyop campaigns, it was anti russia propaganda to stir up the christian world for the worse. 3) The Sacred Heart in the sense that the catholic devite thenselves to isnt christian, its prelest and nestorianism as cited in the Council of Ephesus the canon about how prayers and adoration is supposed to be diredted towards the whole Christ, not parts of Him. Other than those things, this video was splendid to watch and very convicting.
Thank you Fr. Peter, you taught me a lot by this video.
Edit: Referring back to Point #1 I made, I made that point halfway into the video. I got to the eucharist part of the video later. OOPSIE LMAO
There are no parishes that use unleavened wafers, though. It’s an edict by the Vicariate to use leavened, but flattened, wafers
@@Lamenters1stCompanyCpt Oh wow really? The wafers are leavened?
My question is, why must they flatten it? Doesn’t make any sense
@@asurian124because this is part of the authentic western tradition. See for example the Lanciano Eucharistic miracle from 700 AD - the host consecrated was flat.
@@asurian124because in our rite, we do not use a spoon. We use the ancient way of the priest placing it in our mouths directly from his hands. Imagine a congregation with 200 people, how would the priest have enough room on the altar for so many bite sized pieces of prosphora? In the Byzantine rite with the spoon, this “issue” is avoided because the lamb absorbs the wine and water and is easily scoopable into portions.
Hopefully that helps a bit
I want to learn more about the Western Rite. I feel that I've been mislead about the West.
This looks so Roman Catholic to me idk why
You are not the only one yes it does
It is the liturgical rite the Roman Catholics took from us when the schism happens and they fled from us. The rite is being taken back by Orthodoxy, but the false theology of the RCC is left behind.
Because you, like many people, are accustomed to eastern expressions of the Orthodox faith.
This is the latin Mass.
Kinda the point
I would rather see ALL faces of Orthodoxy than just one.
27:38 "If we can adopt pagan practices..."
Pagan culture not religion
Is there any other upload of the song in the beginning of the video? What's it called?
It is our churchs choir as he shows our communion, our choir is pretty great 😂
Why is the Eucharist still a wafer in the western rite? At least they also give the blood. Doesn’t make sense to me
The wafer is leavened. It's not the azimes of the Romans.
@@Southlander1000this fella didn't mention leaven m8. Simply asked why it's in the form of a wafer, which is a totally legitimate question. Still have not received a good answer to it either. Just seems to be for the sake of looking more "western"
@@UnworthySeraphim You also have no good reason to decry it, either. It's focusing on externals.
@Southlander1000 It's the body of Christ, not simple externals (which are still a part of Tradition anyway). Christ's body is risen and glorified, as such we leaven in prosphora to reflect this reality in the physical (external) realm
I also was confused cause it looks unleavened at a glance. But I don’t understand the wafer look a like too. And why not served on a spoon? Why would it be served by hand? Wouldn’t that risk crumbs falling and his body touching areas that it was not meant to? Wouldn’t that mean things have to be burned?
Where can I find the song from the oppening scene ?
Since when is it in Orthodoxy permitted to use unleavened bread.?
They use leavened. He explains it later in the video.
Where did you see that's it's unleavened bread? It's leavened, just flat.
It shouldn’t be because it’s still obviously trying to ape Tridentine-flavored Papism.
@@atomiclead8647 so wrong. There are many things that the traditional Romans practice that we reject and exclude.
This is not Orthodox practice and tradition. They mix Orthodoxy with Papism somehow.
My wife heard just two weeks ago that there is no salvation outside the orthodox church and i think you know which orthodox church but i have also heard catholics say the same thing .
"Since We take great care to protect the religion of the godhead above in all things, (We order) that no one may carve or paint a statue of the Savior Christ in earth, in stone, or in marble placed on the ground; but whatsoever is found shall be destroyed. We specifically command that if anyone attempts anything contrary to Our laws, he shall be punished by the severest penalty. Given May 21, in the consulship of Hierius and Ardaburius (427)." (The Codex of Justinian, Vol. 1, Bk. 1, Title 8.1, p. 227-229, Cambridge University Press, 2022)