HOW TO KNURL ON THE LATHE
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- This is part 2 of a demonstration on how to make consistently beautiful & perfect knurls on steel & alum. In this video I show the frailties of bump type knurlers as compared to the the foolproof pinch type knurlers used on screw machines.
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#knurling#knurlrollers#brown&sharpeknurlers#clausinglathe#atlaslathe#machineshop#tubalcain
You should make a dvd or digital set off everything you’ve ever done so we don’t lose your knowledge!!! Pass on knowledge not lose it!! Thanks Mr Pete!! Love all your stuff always looking it over and over again!! Not many left like you!!! Thanks again!!!!
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Mr. Pete every video of yours gets a 👍from me! It's always good to learn what is correct, what is not, why one is correct and how to get the correct result every time.
A lesson I need to see (you may have covered but I've not found...yet) is fitting a solid, no pre drilled holes, backplate to a chuck.
If you've done it and know the episode number I'll definitely watch it.
Thanks Mr. Pete
Thank you for watching, I don’t think I have done a video on the backing plate
knurling is an art for itself, well done Pete, thanks for sharing
Mr Pete, I commented yesterday that I own a scissor type knurler and I get pretty good diamonds etc... I didn't give it much thought but, the scissors style cutters are positioned much like the B&S tools in that they are not pushing from the sides( like the bump style) but are on the top and bottom. On the scissors type there is quite a bit of effort in moving the tool down the workpiece and , for me powerfeed is almost a must in getting good, consistent diamonds.
Brings back many memories. My students were always amazed when they saw knurling for the first time.
Did anyone else wanted to see the setup of the knurler besides me?
Yes
Yes
I would have liked to see that too. Mr.Pete, can we talk you into doing a part 3 that covers setting up the B and S type knurling tools?
Me too :-)
Yes.
Very nicely done. Always a pleasure to watch and learn from you.
That "B&S" knurler is great adapted to the lathe. I have several videos of adapting screw machine/ turret lathe tooling to my Logan 10" lathe. Great video as alway Mr. Pete!👍
Thanks, I will look them up
I've done quite a bit of knurling through the years have also done face drilling on a milling machine where I put my knurling tools into a holder into a collet and then just pass the work underneath the knurls on the flat surface.
Nice demo Lyle. I use the B& S type knurllers all the time, mostly on my turret lathe, they work awesome. I like using the chamfered edge knurllers, they start easier. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Randy. I just watched your video on installing the knee power feed. It’s never very simple. Is it, L O L but you’re doing a great job.
@@mrpete222 All up and running great. Thank you for stopping in.
I always give you a thumbs up Mr. Pete, even before I watch the whole video.
Thanks
I paused the video and really looked close at that picture and it was hilarious!!! It reminds me of my daily work flow aka bad luck lol
Thank you Mr Pete. As always, I enjoyed it and I learned from you. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Excellent follow up video for part one , thanks for taking the time to do this MrPete 👍👍👍👍
Thank you for your exceptional content Sir. I am a fan of your videos for several years.
I appreciate that!
39 year machinist and I am so glad im not the only one disgusted with the results of the Aloris style knurling tool. Its rare for me to knurl something but I want it to look nice when I do. Thanks Mr. Pete.
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Thanks Mr. Pete for the knurling lesson. I was told not to have the knurl diamond come to a point, to always have a flat on the tip, otherwise it will bite into your hand.
True
Beautiful knurls Mr Pete by bagesh and bagash.Thank you.
Good morning Mr Pete, never fail to enjoy learning a little something with you sir, please keep up the good work, best wishes from merry ol England
I liked seeing you take control in year 2😂
Thank you for the video series on knurling. I haven't done much knurling over the years. The few times I've cut knurls I've used a cut style knurling tool dad borrowed from work back in the 1960's. Sadly, it's so old I can't find any new knurls that will fit this old tool. Anyways, I've tried the Aloris one with zero luck with it. It now is used with a chamfering tool only. Did buy a elcheapo scissor type knurling tool and amazingly it cuts some very nice knurls! Ken
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"Not as much Mayhem." So, did Mr. Mayhem lose a digit or a limb? I had an unflattering nickname was a little kid. "Tornado" was part of that name. And it didn't matter if I had one arm tied behind my back, it was just my nature.
I have a scissors type knurler and a few bump types. I may try and make my own BS or WS style. They don't look all that difficult to make. So, they are probably way more complex than I can handle, and will result in another "growing" experience. Growing piles of swarf, broken tooling and scrapped parts!!!! Thanks for the excellent instruction Dr. Pete!
I have a 00 B & S knurler if you like to borrow it sometime and try out.😁
@@4GSR Good morning Sunshine!! That sounds like a plan! thanks!
Back in high school, 1980 (ish) I turned a small hammer. Knurled the handle about 4 inches. No clear memory what that tooling was. Still have that hanging in my shop today!
Mr. Pete, that's a knarley knurling video!😂
With the bump aloris on 303 I found you have to support with tailstock live center and use pretty heavy pressure.
You made me feel pretty good, Mr Pete! I'm a new, self-taught user of machine tools, and I've gotten some pretty good results with the Aloris style bump knurler I got from Shars. I've only used it on aluminum and brass, and made some crummy ones, but I think at least 60% of my attempts look pretty good. Maybe 30%, in my opinion, look quite good. I did not use power feed, and I think my biggest blunder was not using enough fluid. I'm sure a lot of it was just luck, but I think another helpful thing, for me at least, was really careful setup. Those of mine that looked the worst were, I think, caused by one of the rollers putting more pressure on the work piece than the other. It seems like getting really close matching of the pressure is a bit of a crap shoot. Even when they seemed to be the same, I think they often weren't.
I just got a scissor type knurler in the mail, and look forward to giving that one a try. Thanks for the excellent teaching!
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I’m still wondering about the stock diameter vs. the knurler tooth pitch/diameter…if not matched couldn’t the teeth in knurler be off a half a tooth on the stock and wipe out the just-formed teeth in the stock? Your part 1 video said not to worry about the stock diameter/knurler diameter but I am a worrier. Maybe the stock compensates by deforming in a way that matches the knurler?
I've always been confused about this, I'm assuming it must slip and fall in.
@@anthonymorency1107 I am glad to hear I’m not the only one that is confused!
The finished knurl is a repeating pattern with a fixed length. If the circumference isn't an integer multiple of the pattern length then there must be one point in the circumference where there is an error in the pattern as the wheels re-align. I guess a bad knurl is where this re-alignment doesn't occur quickly, or fails to occur at all. I need to have a really close look at any examples I can find to see if I can pick the point where it re-aligns. The only other thing I can think is that the rotation of the wheels causes the pattern to rotate with respect to the axis of the shaft, altering the pattern length, so that the re-alignment occurs automatically. But the math in working that out is way beyond me.
Thanks Mr Pete.
It does help with the bump knurler to set a one pass depth and just go for it. It does seem to improve your odds of getting a better knurl.
Thanks for the video
Thanks for the contribution🤗😎🤗😎
A scissors type knurling tool is not limited with making a longer knurl. I agree with you, usually knurls are not much over an inch and the Aloris style should pose no issue, unless for some reason the knurl was located in the middle of a long shaft. I cannot think of an example, just thinking out loud. Thanks for all the information given here.
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Fantastic! I fully understand the dynamics of knurling with this type knurling tool. The knurling wheels “swipe” across the surface instead of being mashed straight in.
yet another great one..
Thank You Mr. Pete! A very useful video!
Thank You Lyle... ( i am thinking to myself "how does Lyle Peterson get soooo much energy") You are so very active with so much wonderful information... I LOVE & LEARN ALL YOU DO..... TM
Actually, I don’t have much energy and I am getting pretty lazy
The Duke of Knurl!
Good one. I should rename the video
Well well - now I know why my push type was never satisfying. I had already concluded the pinch type knurl tool was the way to go, but having your demonstration and opinion certainly solidifies that. Thanks for your continuing education.
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Mr. Pete I’ve watched most of your videos so far always informative even in your rants & rumblings something to learn keep them up ,what I didn’t hear you say when using bump or scissor type knurlier was to never disengage from the work till you were happy with your knurl this is what I see most other creators on TH-cam do wrong
You are right, I failed to say that
Good job thanks for sharing
I feel like there should be a thread rolling tool next, if you happen to have one. Another awesome video. Thanks for posting :)
If a longer handle was to be knurled would it be a better outcome with the first style tool if it was turned with the tail stock center. Then set the speed very slow and the feed rate to advance half of the roller width per spindle revolution about.125 or 8 threads per inch? Thanks Mr. Pete for another great video!
Happy SNOWY WINDY cruddy weather filled Sunday Morning, I hope you remembered the Sabbath etc.!
I find using reverse on the lead screws cross threads the knurls due to the backlash issues.
It is a nasty day in Illinois. Actually, the Sabbath is Saturday not Sunday.
Thanks Mr Pete, always interesting, informative and funny. Though I still gotta believe that the stock's circumference and the wheel's pitch have got to be evenly dividable, else it overlaps somewhat, deforms each and is less then perfect, though it looks pretty good to the eye.
I have gotten good Knurls with the Aloris rigid knurl thingy, but it's a crap shoot for sure. I don't have any other type of knurling tool right now. I do use the wheel style that starts out on the edge as opposed to the tapered side style which helps I find. The turret or screw machine style really is the best. I bet I could make one in my spare time....someday!
Yes, make one I’m thinking about doing it myself
Mr Pete it would be neat to get booth of those carton drawings with your autograph maybe in pdf format . JM
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Nice! Gotta find me some driveshaft yokes and make me a few of those! 😁
Yes, I would like to find a yolk from a smaller vehicle and try to make one
I have a bump knurler, and I hate it! I've never acheived a decent knurl, I'm getting the scissor knurling tool shortly, and feel sure I'll get good results, but those Brown & Sharp ones you just showed would be preferable, but hard to get here in the UK. great video Mr Pete, thanks!
Yeah, I have scissor knurler and it works quite well. The scissor knurler is better for your machine as there isn't near the pressure on the cross feed screw. You carefully position the rolls so that they are dead center with the part, you can do it by feel. Then, turn the machine on and tighten the knurler, put it in feed.
Hope this helps.
I believe the starting circumference of the stock is critical to easily produce a proper knurl. It is a function of the knurl wheel pitch and the circumference. Divide the circumference with the knurl pitch, and the closer the result is to a whole number, the better the results.
Agree!
Straight knurls is nothing but a small gear interacting with a larger gear. For this to run smoothly, there is a relationship between the two. Now, when knurling, the metal is massaged. The result is that the workpiece is forced into correct diameter. You will find this in the diameter of the resulting knurled part of the workpiece. In practical work you do not care about the diameter of the knurling, but if you do, you must start with a workpiece of correct diameter and the knurling must go to a specific depth.
No mathematics are necessary If the knurls are set deep enough with a good flow of oil they will self-track on any diameter after a few rotations. I’ve made thousands of perfectly formed diamond knurls on 3/4, 1.00, 1.25, 1.50, and 1.75 diameter 6061 T6 aluminum without calculating exact diameters. The free rotating knurls actually slip slightly into previous grooves once a tracking pattern is established.
@@ellieprice363, I only said "the closer the result is to a whole number, the better the results". Of course brute force will also solve the problem, if you a have scissor-type knurler - or the type Mr. Pete demonstrated.
@@ellieprice363 Yes, brute force may do the math. That is, you press the knurler exactly so deep that the knurled part is perfect. In witch case the pitch of the knurler coinside with the correct diameter, but you have no control with he diameter of the finished knurled section.
@@ellieprice363 Please take a look here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knurling
They indicate that the workpiece should have a sertain diameter for best result with a given knurler.
Last video I was convinced that I would pick up the knurlmaster hand knurler. Found one on feebay with only straight wheels but new would cost all my molars. Non-knurled thumb screws it is. Thanks for the video
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I have one of these b&s style knurling tools. I never use it because I don't know how to set it up. I wish you would have shown how to set the tool up like you said you were going to earlier in the video.
I always wondered how a knurler doesn't just mash the diamond points of the previously formed points, how does it "self synchronize" to prevent this? Nothing seems to be timed or set like you do with gear teeth....? Thanks Mr.Pete!
Good knurling video. Could you cover the difference between these form knurls and cut knurls?
I was always told that the work piece needs to be a multiple of the diameter of the rollers on the bump style knurling tool.
Thank you! I would like to see the results of using a clamp-type knurling tool that is sold on both eBay and Amazon and compare the results to your Brown & Sharpe knurling tools.
I don’t have a knurled, but I have to get one. Thanks Mr Pete
Thank you for the video. I found it very interesting despite the fact that from now on I'll look at all my existing bad knurls with disappointment. I wish you had a scissor knurler in the video. I wonder if getting good results with them is fairly easy or hard. These days one often sees those Chinese made scissor knurlers that look like two pieces of 4in long, half inch square bar stock with rollers attached on the end, mounted in a V configuration, having a single thin screw for setting the spacing. I often wondered if these are a waste of time or not? They don't look very rigid at all. If they're useless I can see myself making one similar to those screw machine types shown.
I have seen those Chinese scissors knurlers in catalogs. I have never used one and I really do not know about the air quality.
Mr. Pete, the bump knurler catalog pages from video 859 were very clear that tailstock support was necessary. Even though you had a short stick-out, since you observed material deflection (and bad knurls!), it really seems like a fair test requires using a live center. Any reason you didn't?
Mr Pete, unfortunately you neglected to show us how to set up the knurling wheels. It would be so interesting to see this. Could you do a quick part 2a please. Watch all your videos and have learnt so much. Cheers Nobby
It seems like it would take a lifetime to setup a machine shop perfect.
Every job to do right just about requires tooling specific to that job, and then the fixtures, jigs, clamps, vises, etc.
I have to constantly keep myself from buying a lathe because I know I will be chasing all those small things down the rest of my life.
I know myself too well, and each project will be a reason to order a new tool. I will just have to be happy with 3d printing and wood work as I'm pretty setup in that dept.
But it sure does look fun and satisfying! Even if it's just watching on TH-cam.
Great video. At 18:07 your knurl is pretty good but notice how the diamonds don't form a straight line? This is where the material diameter vs diametral pitch comes in. If you adjust the material diameter slightly you'll see those diamonds line up perfectly. Sometimes you can get away with adjusting the depth of the knurl to fix this issue.
Yes
The straight knurls don't look to be parallel to the longitudinal axis of the work piece; i.e. over even the short distance that you knurled, they appear to be slightly twisted. Just a comment. I like the scissors type, in particular the UK-made Marlco knurling tool which is both self centring and cam actuated via a lever (against an pre-settable depth-stop). Maybe you can look it up in some old catalogue - something that you seem to enjoy doing (LOL!).
Ian.
If you mess up the OD on something that is press fit you can straight knurl it to make it tight fit.
Have you ever had to sharpen a knurl to improve traction? And all you have is a 6" triangle file. If you worked on small Xerox machines in 1980 you did. They would wear down and were not a replaceable part and all they did was feed paper. Finally we developed a one wheel knurling and we used it on one side and turned it over to cross the pattern. Them were the days my friend.
Very interesting, never heard of sharpening one
Thanks a lot I’ve used the bump type and you are correct it’s terrible. I also have the scissor type( looks like a pair of pliers) with much better results, as usual your correct about them being better a little harder feeding it while squeezing the handles together but much better results. GOD BLESS YOU ❤
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A good demonstration Lyle. Now all I have to do is find an old B&S.
I was surprised McMaster & Carr didn't have the tool holders only wheels. They had a hand knurler that looks like a pipe cutter.
Excellent video! Would also enjoy a video using the scissor type knurler. Hopefully someone will donate one for you to make a video using that type.
I wish I would have had that type of knurling tool as opposed to the bump style in HS shop.
I bet the antics of the kids in your or anyone's shop class would make for a great Sunday newspaper comic strip. I turned in time to see (but not stop) a Special Ed kid get the result of using a cross cut guide and rip fence simultaneously on a table saw. It nutted the kid so hard he dropped to his knees. It took what seemed like an eternity to convince my beloved teacher 1. That the kid didn't cut anything important off and 2. That a heart attack was totally unnecessary.
Yes, I wish I had documented every scary or crazy incident over the years. I could write a book. That’s a horrible story about the tablesaw.
i have used my brown & sharpe kurling tool many times on my Hardinge DSM 59 turret lathe, to get the best results, you need to flood the part with oil or coolant to wash the chips off of the knurling wheels.
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Good morning Mr Pete!
I have used the bump knurlers and made a scissors type. The bump ones didn't have the same depth and sharpness to the knurl. The scissors one I made worked very well and was so much easier on my lathe.
Yes
Thanks Mr Pete - I'm making some parts with about a 5" long knurl (alum) and using a scissors knurler for the length. Seems to work ok - I notice some flex but overall am happy with the results - thanks as always
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I’m not a machinist but enjoy watching your videos! It seems to me you could make a pilot hole jig the same diameter as the base of the knerling tool to get an accurate center. Getting the cutters the right diameter would be a challenge but one of the variables would be eliminated.
Mr. Pete, for those of us who are stuck with the 'bump' style knurling tool, would it improve the situation to use a follow rest to introduce a countervailing force when knurling?
The following rest might marr the knurl
Re: "I wish they had used a phillips head screw": -Not invented until 1932, so if the tool was designed before that, they probably didn't change from the slotted type for many years. My dad, who ran the screw production operation for the Sems division of Textron in Rockford said that high production industries like automotive were begging a fastener head that would lend itself to increased automation.
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What's the purpose of the two screws behind the rolls
Ive looked for a knurler for a few years now, off and on. Ive never seen that type, only the cheap push type. Ive never made a good knurl before, I think Ill have to buy a kit from hemingway to get a decent one.
Isn't there a type that cuts rather than presses the metal?
My guess the problem of bump knurlers is essentially chatter and lack of rigidity. The cutters can jump out of "timing" too easily.
Can you turn those 90 degrees to the axis of the material and run them for any length of material you wish? You wouldn't be limited by the depth in the bore of them that way.
Thank you
thank you Mr Pete
have you done a video on how you set up this straddle knurler?
The straight knurl reminds me of splines on the ends of shafts such as axles or machine shafts.
At 19:22 you said that hot rolled steel would be an issue. Could someone explain why? As frame of reference, Im assuming hot rolled means A36 from a box store. Thanks for your help!
RE: ALORIS Knurling attachment lack of Quality and less than fine cut, I believe that if you examine the beginning frames of the cut, show quite clearly that the TOP roller engages the work (starts to spin) before the BOTTOM does. This is evidence of the tool needing to be raised. I believe better Z axis will vastly improve it's cut, as well as employing tailstock or follow rest being needed as well. Also from what I could see, the cutters had leftover swarf or even damaged cutting edges. Knurling close to the jaws would help. I also saw the TOP cutter bobbing up and down while in use....couldn't see the bottom one. see video at abt. 6:59.
Love ALL your Videos!
Much of knurling depends on both knurls beginning to turn at the very same moment. This insures they are set to the same depth. The B&S knurl holder was a pretty dependable tool holder as long as they are clean inside and not overly damaged or worn. As to diametric relationships of knurl and pitch, an old B&S handbook described the math involved. Knurling will crush drilled/reamed holes, so yes, knurl first, then do the holes.
One thing people should keep in mind is the fact that bump type put much more pressure on spindle bearings of the lathe. This pressure is much greater than the process of turning or cutting. The scissor type (which was not shown) do not apply this kind of pressure because the knurl wheels are opposed like the screw machine type, but unlike the screw machine type they have a greater range of capacity. With the advent of small table top machines with smaller and less sophisticated spindle bearing systems, I would opt for the scissor type if I were buying one. I only use this type in my shop and it was the only type my students used when I taught. The students had very good results with the scissor type.
On another note, the appearance and utility of any knurl is greatly enhanced by power wire brushing afterwards. Softer materials of course require softer pressure on the wheel.😮
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The pinch type is often helped by chamfering the rollers the same amount so as to make them start rolling at the same time.
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thanks
Is the knurl supposed to slip and fall into the previous groove? I've been confused about this as wouldn't it need to align after 1 revolution?
No. Just like two gears do not need to realign after each revolution. They are just wheels riding around a wheel(the work piece).
@grntitan1 so it just works. That's crazy how that works out. You'd think the pitch of the knurl die would need to relate to the circumference of the piece or the last knurl at 1 revolution would be odd size
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Looks good to me Boss. Izzit time for lunch? Me and Bubba and that new kid from Louisiana izza gitn hangry. Ok Bubba, I'll tell him. Bubba says the new kid is Budroux. We got mud crickets around here? 👍
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👍 Knarly Knurls 🤓👍
What alloy is "screw machine stock"? What do you mean by that term Lyle?
When I Google it I get answers from 12L14 all the way to 4130, so I'm not sure which alloy you're referring to when you use that term.
12L14
@@mrpete222 Thanks Lyle...that's what I figured. But Google was less than helpful.
By the way--your ears should have been ringing late last week: I went over and picked up a couple of the Rose Index units from Tim at his shop, and we were talking about a couple of your videos. I live like 30 miles away from him, so I just drove over there. Cool place--full to the brim with machinery!
I was hoping you would show the set up as you made mention of at the beginning of the video, still a good video though.
Why wouldn't you mount the knurling tool perpendicular to the work rather than from the end? Put it in the other end of the tool holder and put the tool holder on the left side of the Aloris tool block (like where you would mount a tool bit).Then turn the wheels in the holder to the proper angle, Use a tailstock support center if you need to. Then you could knurl longer lengths than just 1 inch. Just a thought.
My thought exactly. The pressure on the tool would be across the shaft instead of lengthwise, but it looks sturdy enough to cope. And with the wheels at 45 degrees the cutting action should be identical to the standard setup.
Your favorite way is much better.
Fun picture from Your first year as teacher. What did the pupils think of You?
What nickname did they give You?
One teacher got the nickname "the buck" due to his beard. One was named "The cheese" due to his name. Then there was "The file", already mentioned..
Not having a scissor knurler? Maybe the next auction can fix that? Joking!
The push type knurler should not be used on hobby lathes as they stress the head stock bearings. The scissor type is more kind to the lathe.
Anything can be made a science. I'm satisfied getting something a littler bit better than just raugh. Making arts? Not my ambition. Why ruin a clumsy but working part by failing some artistic work?
Being an old an experienced teacher, have You been reading the label on the WD40? I have and don't use it. "Avoid breathing it, use good ventilation"...... I would need to put the lathe, or the mill, on the stove where there is air evacuation...
If You're still reading.... You have beaten this subject to death in the two parts... Joking!
I read the whole thing. I guess I did not read the warning label on WD-40.
Never seen heard of that type before.
Hi Lyle,, you might be interested in a stock dia chart for a perfect knurl ? I found this helps for fine knurls ,, see what you think Paul WPG MB
Not being familiar with this knurl tool, I was wondering if there is a proper way to remove the knurl wheel shaft. Maybe just hand press it out? Just don't want to break anything on the used one I picked up, and not for a buy$, it cost me but I wanted one anyway!
I use a punch