"Therefore, a new route was suggested for the Fleet Line which would drive it across the Isle of Dogs... up to Barking." Oh come on, London. You can't just casually pretend that's not intentional.
I live near Thamesmead, and I've always thought that area was very weird, as it didn't have any way of easily getting into central London without having to take a bus to Woolwich or Abbey Wood. Even though Thamesmead seems to have a huge amount of space I'm sure developers would love to build on. Personal, working in central London, if there is more than 2 tube connections I have to take to reach my destination it already feels tiring, let alone having to add a bus into it. it sounds silly but I'd rather walk 10 minutes to a station than take 10 minutes on a bus to a station.
Yep - not only does it have no rail station but also no easy way of getting across the Thames, it being roughly equidistant from the crossings at Woolwich and Dartford. It desperately needs a rail link to provide one and I do think the Gallions Reach tunnel proposal is the best option available. You basically cannot llive in Thamesmead and communicate easily to the centre of the city.
A mile is about 15 minutes' walk,which should be no challenge - indeed a good thing to stay in reasonable shape - for the able bodied. But it would be good if a loop could be added from Abbey Wood via Thamesmead,though I bet it would be expensive.
@@rjjcms1 Actually most people walk at less than 3 mph. 4mph and above is rare. But yes, it would be expensive but it will give alternative routes out of Abbey Wood.
As a mere provincial guy - used to being ignored by London-centric politics - I was amazed to learn from this video about Thamesmead having the same treatment as us mortals who dare to enjoy life in the provinces. I never knew where Thamesmead was until a few minutes ago.
Well said regarding the lack of movement on a Thamesmead line. I was at uni when the idea was first mooted in 1973, and I am now an OAP. Planners ought to make their mind up which route is best, get on and build the damn thing rather than just sitting in offices for 50 years arguing and planning things between tea breaks.
Or perhaps accountants should be forced to loosen the purse-strings so that the planners can actually get what they plan built? Every failed project I've ever seen hasn't failed because the planners decide to play with another variant of the scheme but because the money wasn't forthcoming. :(
@@atraindriver Or perhaps things will never be spent on places like Thamesmead when there are competing claims for Canary Wharf, where important people can make lots of money. Good Grief! I'm starting to sound like a Leftist.
Regarding 1:39 and Abbey Wood being "about a mile away": Where I grew up in the suburbs, the local station was exactly a mile away, and for the whole of my life it has been "just round the corner", i.e. very convenient and local. This whole concept of what counts as inconvenient inside the big city is quite different from what people experience in suburbia. Out here, if you have a station within a 20 minute walk you consider yourself well served.
That's true enough. Our station is 25 minutes walk away from our house, and it's in the centre of town. But surely what Jago means is it's a mile from the edge of a very large housing development - in 2008 according to Wikipedia 41,000 people in a fairly widely scattered area. So a lot more than a mile for some residents.
@@peterdawson2645: Yeah, when I used to catch trains into Central London the station(s) I used were about a mile away and a 12-15min walk. Though tiring in the mornings, it was just about manageable (and maybe I still needed more exercise, even then!) but if it were double that or more, I probably would be moaning a lot at the very least (and that's with the assumption that the walking route is flat!)
Heh, the nearest passenger rail station to my home is 160 miles away by the shortest (but not fastest, oddly enough) route. But then, where I live, public transport of any kind is considered dangerously communistical.
At the time I was living in Thamesmead around 40 years ago, I was working in the City. The railway service was tragic, so I had to drive. The roads out of Thamesmead were marvellous until you hit Plumstead, about three miles away. I changed jobs and country largely because of the problems of transport.
Aarrggghh,Plumstead was where I got seriously snarled up in hopeless traffic one Saturday afternoon in October 1986,driving back through London with a friend from an overnight in Southend and foray into Kent to my home then in Watford. Is it any better now?
I'd imagine the social stigma associated with Thamesmead as A LOT to do with this but there might be some light at the end of the yet to be built tunnel. Woolwich has a DLR station, sure, but it now also has a fancy new Elizabeth line station (Canary Wharf in 8mins!) that's built inside the newly redeveloped Arsenal itself - the Arsenal being where you live if you're fortunate to have the money to (the average 2 bed flat with river/city view will be roughly 2k+ per month) but of course you tell people you live in Greenwich, not Woolwich. (technically true, but still...) I know this because I used to live in the new development and you couldn't help but tell people you lived in Greenwich because Woolwich has it's own stigma attached to it. Woolwich has had a SLOW redevelopment process over the last 20 years and in the last 5 has stalled considerably (the Arsenal, aside), walking around Woolwich is like being in an 80's time warp, you expect to see a Woolworths whenever you turn a corner. Maybe when Thamesmead's new developments are finished there will be more of a push to get a rail link there, because they sure as heck could charge the young, single finance types to pay 2k per month to live there if it had good connections.
The government only approved Woolwich getting a Crossrail station on the proviso that someone else paid for it all. Berkeley Homes paid a good chunk of it (for obvious reasons) and Greenwich council a small amount, which they raise from taxing other developments to build near the station. There's quite a big shortfall that still needs to be paid from the council's contribution, so good luck getting anything new done for a while.
The difference being, all the extensions you list had major developments, the developers of which often pay handsomely to have new stations so they can advertise their often overpriced flats and offices as being so many minutes from central London.
Although it may be costly (and, OK, I admit, potentially slow on its initial uptake), I would argue for the proposed Overground extension from Barking Riverside to Abbey Wood via Thamesmead. That particular route would maximise the available destinations/connections from Thamesmead without having to change too many times or go through central London which in turn would encourage increased use of public transport in the area and allow TfL to recoup its investment fairly easily.
My favourite is still extending the Goblin line to Abbey Wood from Barking Riverside. But it's amazing how, when a council builds it, all the planning requirements that are a necessity for a private development aren't a requirement. It's how councils manage to build the ugliest buildings...
Theres a physical problem in doing that now. Such an extension by tunnel needs a significant portal length to route under the river. Transport planners are rubbish. Every project they do is short sighted, corner cutting, compromises, that please noone.
As a US outsider, I've heard that if the railway is in a tunnel, you can actually build a station underground next to the railway. You could call it something like, I don't know, maybe "The Underground". Just a crazy wild idea.
@@davidwebb4904 They could do what they did with Island Gardens. I remember going to the old station on top of the viaduct before they put the new station underground as part of going under the river to Greenwich.
@@davidwebb4904 Maybe that's because public transport faces such an uphill battle to get built because schemes are frequently hit with budget constraints and vehement opposition from people who don't understand what schemes entail. Almost like, in a country where people consider owning a car as a form of success, schemes which aren't designed with that at the forefront have issues getting approval.
@@michaelleiper Exactly, only, who would approve the demolition of the brand new station? Also, the Thanes is wider and deeper there, making the approach longer and deeper than island gdns.
In (I think) 1969 I had a holiday job with the London Borough of Bexley Engineer's Department building a scale model to show the flyover which was about to be built across the railway at Abbey Wood to replace the level crossing. The plans (and my model) showed the station to be relocated with an entrance at flyover level and steps down to the platforms. The platforms would have been extended across where the level crossing was and under the new flyover, with a third platform to terminate trains at Abbey Wood. Although there was passive provision for the new station building when the bridge was built, it's only now, 50-odd years later, that anything like that has actiually happened. Shows how long you have to wait for transport changes at Thamesmead! Incidentally, it was a very odd experience walking round the area after the bridge had been built and the roads realigned and feeling you'd been shrunk to scale model size...
I moved to Thamesmead in 1978, Stage 3 the bus to Abbey Wood Station ran every hour the 272 the walk was 30 mins. The bus would leave empty from Abbey Wood Station to Stage 3. 5 mins before the train from London arrived so i would walk home. I put up with it for 2 years before moving out to Walderslade in Kent. Best thing i ever did. Thamesmead was just a place to house thousands of people and forget about them. By the way the problem was Half The estate was in London and the other Half in Kent. So nobody took control.
To be fair, over the years Thamesmead has become rather less isolated than it once was in public transport terms. Sure, it still relies exclusively on buses to link it into the rail network - but those buses are *far* more frequent and reliable than they were in the 70s and 80s. And back then they only linked into the BR line via Plumstead - a poor substitute for a proper metro service. But when the Jubilee Line Extension opened in 1999, Thamesmead got a direct (if rather lengthy) bus service to North Greenwich to connect with it. Far more important was the opening of the DLR to Woolwich Arsenal a decade later - this is much closer to Thamesmead, and linked to it by multiple bus routes. These days, Thamesmead's connectivity with the Underground / DLR network is comparable to that of many other areas of suburban London. The imminent opening of the Elizabeth Line will dramatically improve connectivity still further - even if the Abbey Wood terminus is still a short bus ride from Thamesmead itself. In effect, the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood is a direct replacement for a Jubilee Line branch to Thamesmead.
To be fair, a lot of city planners and budgeters likely uses the excuse, "But this existing community have been doing fine for over 50 years already, and they have plenty of parking spaces that we can't have. Why do WE have to give them a rail link?" But yes, a community as densely populated as Thamesmead should have had a rail link long ago regardless. Especially when so many options exist in the area. Extending the DLR from where it has already crossed the river at Woolwich Arsenal is a decent move, likewise is an extension from Abbey Wood.
The buses from Abbey Wood station to Thamesmead isnt that bad, running every 10 to 15 mins. Yes, I did enjoy living there and yes it is quieter than Woolwich that's for certain.
Oh I love Jago’s narration. These videos should be played to government ministers and transport planners as they’re really effective at demonstrating the folly of failing to plan.
At 3 minutes in I was wondering how the River Line going eastwards from Fenchurch Street would visit Thamesmead East and Thamesmead Central before reaching Thamesmead West
As a scotsman, a rural scotsman at that I nearly spat my coffee out when it was mentioned that the nearest station to Thamesmead was a whole mile away. I beg your pardon? Up here in the wilds its not uncommon for the nearest rail station to be 10... 20 ... 30.... 40 or more miles away. We even some what ridiculously have a station that's some 12 miles from the nearest road. Can't the people in Thamesead travel a paltry mile to the nearest station? I guess I just don't realise how GOOD the public transport is in London, or conversely Londoners don't realise how bad it is else where.
@@nicolek4076 oh absolutely 💯%. I enjoy learning about places like London, but no way I would want to live in a city! Even small Scottish cities like Dundee or Aberdeen are a bit too .... people-y for me after a few days 🤣 The town I live in is a little more than mile or so from end to end and no more than half a mile wide. I live in the centre, and am no more than 10 minute walk from the open green spaces. Getting public transport anywhere is a bit of a chore though, but I just hop on the motorbike so thats all good 👍
@@Decrepit_biker It sounds lovely, rather similar to my situation in Yorkshire. although we're on a pretty good bus route (every 20 minutes) and have a railway station within half a mile. But I look out of my window and see rolling green hills. Like you, I got the better side of the deal.
I actually was a member of the building crew back in 1969 just prior going to Tech College My Dad was a GLC surveyor and got me the Job Thames mead was supposed to build all along the Southbank of the Thames as far as Graves End all Transport done by the A2/M2 road
Sadly in Sydney, Australia these sorts of developments built away from railway stations are quite common. There are currently still several housing developments being built quite a distance from any rail or light rail station. London is quite spoilt for rail transport options, and even Thamesmead (by Sydney standards) is still quite close to rail transport being only a 10 minute drive from Abbey Wood.
100%. Here in Australia being within 1 mile or 1.6 klms of a train station is sold as a benefit and close to transport! Suppose it’s all releative when other newer but richer areas already well served get trains before a working class area that’s been asking for it for 40 years.
I have to laugh when a mile away is considered distant :) While living in Canada's capital, the nearest train station was 20 km away. Now, my nearest rail station is 1400 km away. And I'm close to a provincial capital! You might say I'm a little bitter about the state of passenger rail in Canada.
@@hairyairey Freight is the dominant rail form in North America - nearly every passenger service must account for it, and freight companies own the majority of the trackage. This often changes closer into major cities, but doesn't help less settled areas.
@@hairyairey Yes. CN Rail divested it's passenger services back in the 70s, which were nationalized into VIA Rail. Freight takes priority over passenger rail, as the companies still own the track. With large stretches of track not twinned, this can result in hours long delays in passenger service, where you sit on a siding and watch kilometers long freight trains pass by.
The saga of the Thamesmead rail link sounds like it ought to be the subject of a Beckett play... probably the best hope is for a DLR extension, but don't hold your breath
The problem with extending the DLR at its extremities is that the journey times become exhaustingly slow and ponderous.. the journey from woolwich arsenal to bank for example is LONG. I feel that the overground from barking riverside to abbey wood is the smartest choice, hopefully the powers that be see it worth investing in.
I lived in Thamesmead for 2 years. Rough barely covers it, plus no infrastructure or transport links... (First with an actual comment, as if anybody cares... )
100%. They can find money to extend a line 2 stations to cater for the smug upper middle class in their Battersea riverside apartments and nights out at expensive restaurants; but not 20,000+ in an entire suburb plonked there by government with 40 years of promises.
That's the UK for you. Working class oiks from the "slum" areas of big cities were hoofed out from the cities and dumped, effectively in the middle of nowhere, in places like Thamesmead and Telford in order to allow those big city areas to be redeveloped for "better" people. The oiks were unwanted by those traditionally in power in the areas they ended up in, were deemed unimportant by everyone in power everywhere and so nobody cared what they wanted, then or now. Doesn't matter which political party is in power, they've been screwed by the system ever since they were dumped and will continue to be screwed in the future.
@@ttrjw ok. Fair enough. But the private developers don’t staff them as well and pay the ongoing maintenance? Plus they were designed to extend beyond as well. And that would be paid by the state. “ The extension was funded by a £1bn loan to the Greater London Authority from the Public Works Loan Board to be repaid by developer contributions (Section 106 agreements and Community Infrastructure Levy) in the Vauxhall Nine Elms Battersea area, as well as through business rates.”
In the draft 1967 SE timetable, there was provision for an hourly Cannon Street to Margate service via Greenwich with first stop at Abbey Wood, intended to boost the service for Thamesmead. It never happened.
I live here and an interesting mention, most people say thanks to the driver when alighting the peasant wagon. there's also a lesser spotted woodpecker that visits the huge willow tree in my back garden its a lovely place
Like you, I feel sorry for Thamesmead. Back in the early 1980s I was a student in Woolwich, and Thamesmead was the cheapest place to find accommodation because it was in the middle of nowhere. It was also the cheapest place in London to buy a house (even in 1990 you could buy a 3/4 bed house for about £30K). Personally, I always loved the Brutalist architecture of Thamesmead (because I was a country boy, and it was therefore exciting). I still feel that it could shine. Woolwich was also a backwater in the 1980s but the arrival of DLR has changed all that. If only Thamesead was given its chance.
The Battersea Power Station Station Stop Station was partly funded by property developers flogging fancy yet ugly flats on the river, and it was only a short distance. Thamesmead is miles away from any connections, and it's a very poor area.
'Thamesmead is miles away from any connections, and it's a very poor area.' That is not stopping Berkeley from its development with plans to sell flats for up to £662,500. In reality, many will be sold off plan to overseas "investors" as somewhere to park their money.
Well I live in Thamesmead and the buses to Woolwich or Abbey wood are great, I don't think we need a rail line as each destination at worst case scenario takes 15 mins to get there.
Very interesting developments from old Bakerloo line to form Fleet/Jubilee line with possible build to Thamesmead. I remember this in the 70's when living at Abbey Wood. I recall too, the Abbey Wood level crossing and old bus routes, 180/171A to Tottenham on Sundays. Abbey Wood has changed much since then although transport links and Crossrail have advanced, it was a nice time back then.
Hi Jago, When I get in from work now outside of London now in Sudbury. My wife loves your calming voice . So Sudbury the Train line . Interesting. It used to run from Marks Tey to Bury St Edmunds. Branches off every where now only Sudbury to Marks Tey . Bridges are still in place , worth a video..... Also Kelvedon to Maldon is interesting.
You used to be able to get a map of the town from the thamesmead town offices where Sainsbury's car park now stands, in it was the proposed rail line. As thamesmead finally got it's extension to the town centre I think it is never going to have its own railway. It's split into two locally and neither council has shown any interest in the town for years
Being a tube nerd myself, I'd quite like the tube line extension. Failing that, the DLR extension sounds the most logical. Still, logical and/or nerdy arent planning considerations. I would agree that the bigger picture has been and is still being missed. It is probable that Thamesmead will only get a station when its on a stop to somewhere else.
It was so stupid how they did the DLR extention to Woolwich Arsenal as the train track trajectory is in the compete opposite to what you need to go thamesmead so you would have to build a new station at Woolwich Arsenal or extend from Gallions reach
What about if they reversed the trains at Woolwich to take them via Plumstead to Thamesmead? Safety standards and signalling permitting, it shouldn’t take long, as the trains run automated anyway?
It would be lovely for Thamesmead to have a new station, but since the nearest is only a mile away I really think it's time the endless spending on transport in the London area was suspended so the rest of us can start to have something close to a useful public transport system. A station just a mile away is something I can only dream about.
Just out of interest, why don't they just extend Crossrail from Abbey Wood to Thamesmead? Surely a mile of track not crossing the Thames is not as costly as some of these grand schemes? Bearing in mind that I don't know the area well (based out of Scotland) so I don't know if there are any issues blocking the way.
Knowing the area, I’d say a way is to extend the sidings at plumstead station (before abbey wood) up onto the Ridgeway path (a path placed on top of an embankment on a sewer main) and extend it the mile or 2 out to a new station at Thamesmead, by the lake.
@@a1white That's a neat idea, but the Ridgeway still looks a fair bit south of much of Thamesmead so maybe only about half a mile nearer than Abbey Wood and still outside easy walking distance for a lot of people. There's an interesting N-S road/path shown on the map west of Crossway park that goes up to the river, but no obvious site for a station.
How would the 1974 "River Line" have served Woolwich Arsenal, Thamesmead East, Thamesmead Central and Thamesmead West in that order? Surely, Thamesmead West would have been served after Woolwich or was there to be a loop at the end?!
@@davidwebb4904 The same mistake was made with respect to the proposed Jubilee extension eastward from Fenchurch St. Maybe he should acquire a compass.
Your video was less bleak and depressing than the brutalist architecture used in Thamesmead. Regeneration cannot come soon enough and a new station would help enormously.
I am unable to comment on best solution, living across the Atlantic, but I must say transit is a significant key to activating moribund public streets. Activate those streets by causing people to use them to reach transit and you will enable community commercial enterprise. I know of Thamesmead only thru architectural study. I agree it has a lot of potential. I want it to see it succeed.
I didn't know that an early Jubilee line extension had plans to Barking & Thamesmead. I like the overground extension. Though with Barking Riverside being so high, the line would have to take quite a drop to get down under the Thames. The DLR extension is ok but I think it wouldn't have the capacity and could make service worse on the Beckton Branch. Also, the Overground has the potential to be extended as far as Bromley if need be. It depends on what happens with TFL in terms of funding. I feel that the disproportionate dependence on fares for tfl funding came from the central government being able to blame london government for failings of money as the London government is often of the opposite party compared with Westminister
I think if the plans were done in the late 60s early 70s, the costs rocketed 1973 with the oil price rises, inflation and public borrowing. If the arabs had not raised the prices, maybe it would have happened as intended (and Docklands at the time were still docks - just - )!
An interesting route would be riverside overground going through Thamesmead connecting with Abbey wood; taking over the southeastern route and joining back with Surrey quays via deptford station. This could potentially free up the track beyond Abbey wood to Dartford for crossrail. Just an idea 😂
Option 2…extend the DLR from the existing train depot underground through to Thamesmead and then Abbey Wood once again taking the existing route from Abbey wood to Greenwich which it would then join the existing route to Lewisham…I’m guessing this might be tested with the Woolwich to Mudchute route right now whilst they renovate Bank…again just a whacky idea 🤔😅
This sounds familiar. Great sounding ideas and plans to help economically depressed or underserved areas that are never realized. Why do I get the feeling I've heard this song and dance recently?
I live in a fairly dense area of a large American city, and Thamesmead is still 3 miles closer to Abbey Wood than I am to my closest bus stop, which is 4 miles away and gets 6 buses a day.
I suppose a cable car route would be out off the question? Sadly as you and others have pointed out, once the people move in the promise of shops and pubs and needed infrastructure goes out the window. The same happened where live. Flats and houses, the developer's plan had shop/supermarket school etc. Also no public transport link.
Extend the National Rail line north eastwards along the existing sewer from Plumstead to Thamesmead. Then place an 4-6tph Overground service to Thamesmead from Clapham Junction via Brixton, Peckham Rye, Lewisham and Woolwich Arsenal.
Whenever Thamesmead is mentioned on this channel, it always sounds like it's literally in the middle of nowhere! Then when I heard the nearest station was a whole mile away, I realised that it was really was serious situation... The best option might be levelling the place and starting again.
If Thamesmead was properly connected it would be one of the best places in London to live. It’s a essentially a massive park with homes for thousands of people.
Great Vid! Again highlighting the terrible inequalities of British life, Battersea Power Station to serve the posh and nothing for Thamesmead for the not so posh!
I enjoyed a fascinating walk (note: walk) from Woolwich to Thamesmead last October (alas, we missed out on a tour of the Crossness sewage works the same day). It's mind-boggling to think public transport was given such scant consideration when the area was first developed for residential living. So many missed opportunities to add good rail links since then, too. I agree, Thamesmead has great potential and puts me in mind of some of Stockholm's suburbs (the water, I guess). I first became intrigued via 'Beautiful Thing' (1996).
Any of those proposals you mentioned would have been worthwhile. Thamesmead remains a curiosity in London urban planning. , but one that I also strongly believe must be rectified
One of my mates lives in Thamesmead, and I find it shocking that it's not getting the appropriate rail it deserves. Yeah, money and all, but y'all could've found a way round it. Wouldn't have been half as expensive as what the Lizzy Line ended up being.
Ooh, I remember that mile walk to Abbey Wood station to go to work in High Holborn via Euston station. Didn’t mind the walk in the morning too much, but the walk back on a dark winter’s evening with the pea soup fog, was quite scary! Such a shame the infrastructure wasn’t built to support the build Thamesmead estate, as it was quite innovative for its time & had it had the investment it was promised & deserved, it would be a different story today. Oh, but wait, it was built as social housing, so of course it’s not 😡😡
There are a few hypotheses I could suggest as to why new developments get priority over existing ones, and the likelihood is possibly a combination of some or all of them. 1) New developments are usually taken up due to their potential. Often that potential is tied to making money and travel links will be integral to that (more jobs and more people). 2) Politicians, now more than ever, are keen to save face. New developments completed on their time look good. You'd think they'd do that for existing infrastructure, but if they only want to open their one project, it'll be for the new one. And that's partly tied to point 3. 3) This is what *Not Just Bikes* called the _"Growth Ponzi Scheme",_ which sees new development as growth. The people supplying the projects sell the dream to the government of perpetual growth, downplaying the money the developers themselves pocket. Shiny new developments are an easy sell because you're bringing in something new, and that means new money. 4) The problem with the length of time for old sites like the one in the video is that it's gone 50 years, despite the neglect, without being a perceived problem. It has survived without rail links and a bridge for _so long,_ so why does it need one now? But this is a deliberate and self-serving rhetoric to remove oneself from responsibility, something many politicians and government/department heads have used for centuries. 5) I'm going to be very frank here, but a lot of this is caused by this nation's mystifying continual bad habit of voting for the conservatives. Time and again they let us down. They let you down. In fact, they openly laugh in our faces, publicly, while actively ruining the country and letting it deteriorate. Two prolific examples are the Owen Paterson scandal, where an MP broke the rules so horrendously badly, that they wanted to change the rules and cover them up. And then there's Boris Johnson, who told us all that we couldn't gather in groups of more than two, only to then not only have multiple large gatherings himself, at his house, but they were full blown parties. That disgusting attitude to people in general is exactly why rejuvenation never happens. Us and our lives are meaningless to them. And honestly? They should be incarcerated for breaking the law like they did.
Here's hoping the middle class eventually get the rail station they've deserved! Ironically, this community got built around the same time the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center were under construction. Thamesmead essentially opened the same time as the Towers. Only to find itself out lasting those great structures. We Americans went through similar bureaucracy issues with cars versus trains during the 50's, 60's and 70's. If you get a chance, look up a man named Robert Moses to get a better understanding of my city's complicated transit history...
Unfortunately, Moses believed his name. Names of too many public facilities and utilities in NY include the creepy word "Authority". Living a safe distance away, I read the NY Post for schadenfreude.
What about the lack of rail in Crouch End, Muswell Hill and Friern Barnet? (Incidentally, having left London, I am now about 90 minutes drive from the nearest rail.)
The problem Thamesmead has is that they do not have people lobbying for them like the investors do. One can only hope parts of the area are appointed for a redevelopment that warrants a station!
I remember Thamesmead from college placements in the 1990s. Our dear mayor is still floating the idea of a Bristol tube. We had coal mines in the city until 1925 (South Liberty Colliery) I think, whilst there are stories of miners at Dean Lane hearing the rumble of trains from Temple Meads. No mention seems to be made of these old mine shafts when a tube system is proposed. No mention either of reviving the old Bristol to Bath Railway that's now a cycle path. Feel free to visit the Strawberry Line in spring. We've cheese, cider and err, strawberries.
Now I know who Jago really is! He's *Uncle Bulgaria* from the Wombles!! :-D Joking aside, I loved that reference, and now I'm going to binge watch some Wombles episodes!! Oh yes, nice to see some bits of London we don't usually hear about - thanks as always ;-))
The Gallions Reach DLR via Abbey Wood, etc will be the best solution (I have an urge to call the DLR the Wombling Free Line now 🤣😂😅) for Thamesmead I think, simply because it is the most affordable option, despite the Thames needing to be traversed somehow. The Woolwich Arsenal option illustrated won’t work simply because the railway is aligned the wrong way. We use the DLR frequently en route to Charlton and as the train emerges from the tunnel, it swings right and into the station in a westerly direction. An alternative would of course be if they decided it made sense to use Woolwich Arsenal as a terminus and then continue with a branch shuttle along the south bank via Thamesmead. Then again, they could start there, go via Thamesmead and then turn north and across/under the Thames to the new riverside developments on the opposite side.🤔 The Barkingside option is the one I like in principle the most, but I just can’t see it happening, not least because as you candidly point out, they only seem to be able to find stations if the money comes from elsewhere (pathetic really) so even public transport is now a matter of whim for the wealthy it seems. Need public transport that has been offered for 5 decades but not a wealthy area? Hmmm….nahhh…Throw up a steel and glass leviathan cash spinner for rich dicks and then hold the network to ransom by refusing to build affordable housing you were obliged to in principle from the start? Oh go on then…🙄 It does make me chuckle when the distance of a mile is considered a “long way” all the same 🤣 But then again, in this case it is the principle. This outpost was created with promises that were never fulfilled and repeatedly allowed to evaporate in the ether over decades. Almost like the governmental equivalent of the child catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, promising a freedom with plenty of opportunities and then realising they’d stuck you in an open prison.🤔 Also, in London, if you are not easy to get to and are not stacked with cash, it means local businesses won’t thrive and you don’t get the knock on multiplier effect, which I guess is another reason to encourage improvement. However, the down side to this will of course be that n the long run, it may become more desirous to line there and in time the poor folk will be turfed or priced out and it will be rebranded Thamesmead Riverside 🤷🏻♂️ Ah well…interesting topic yet again. Thanks Jago 👍🍻🍀
You are so right. A big shame, that now in 2022, more then 50 years after the 'beginning' of Thamesmead, there is still no proper, above or underground, rail connection. This is really unbelievable. If the original plans of Thamesmead were carried out properly, (marina, tube connection, new bridge over the Thames etc, etc...), it would have become one of the most popular places to live in the greater London area, imho.
When I lived in Peckham Rye, 50 years ago, I was about a mile away from Crofton Park, Brockley and Nunhead and slightly further away from Peckham Rye, which was the station I used. For the last 40 years I have lived 20 miles away from a station, so can't see how being 1 mile away from a station is a disadvantage to communications.
The big snag with Thamesmead looks to be that because a rail link wasn't planned into it in the first place, it looks difficult to retrofit any sensible route, at least on the surface, and tunnelling multiplies costs severalfold. A DLR extension might work as it can manage sharper curves and steeper gradients than heavy rail. Incidentally, the original idea of adding a station east of Plumstead doesn't look much better than Abbey Wood - still almost as far from Thamesmead proper.
It's been reported in the last couple of days that Sadiq Khan could shut the tube for "days on end" because of the £1.5 billion black hole." The Sun 2 Feb 2022", So is London going to be a city of walkers?
@@highpath4776 It's in The Sun. The original quote was probably that they needed to save X amount of money which would be the same as it would cost to keep the tube running for Y days. The Sun and their ilk aren't exactly famous for accurate reporting of anything said by someone they dislike, are they?
@@atraindriver I tend to follow myLondon or New Civil Engineer for rail info. I think Picc Line Signalling Upgrade expenditure has at least been canx or postponed. Its not too difficult to save some money running headways a little less - every 4 mins rather than 3 for example. Problem for Govt is that TfL has expanded so much since the 1980s, with the take on of overground and TfL rail services that mainly would have been a BR problem, add in DLR costs (fairly low I would imagine compared to others). Plus crossrail not bringing in fares revenue in the expected years and one can see that effectively TfL needs a massive financial loan that can only be repaid over a 40 year period, with little scope to reduce fixed costs without yet more initial investment. The TfL model in the London sense is more one of the Metropolitan Line's (or its Directors!) idea of expect significantly greater density of housing near tube stations (or increase the work places), and use that uplift in council tax to provide general london revenue, as such it always seems to me odd not to have connected Thamesmead with elements of additional housing units.
I remember a proposal suggesting an increase in frequency on DLR on the Woolwich Arsenal branch. Concern that the terminus would not be able to cope with the extra movements led to the suggestion that a junction be built in the tunnel and a eastern spur rise to a second terminus at Plumstead. Running would be split between the two. Perhaps this should merit reconsideration, an extension Plumstead to Thamesmead would surely be a no brainer and the whole scheme probably much cheaper than another river crossing.
The issue is they would have to rebuild Woolwich Arsenal DLR Station as the current platform trajectory is in the opposite direction you need to go thamesmead. A poor oversight by TFL honestly Edit I re-read your comment and you touched on Woolwich Arsenal station issue if they still might have to rebuild Woolwich Arsenal Station. Plus financially TFL is broke right now lol
@@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1 The then proposal (early 2000s and new extension proposal every fortnight!) was to avoid Woolwich Arsenal by building the junction in the tunnel, south of the river and prior to it veering westward.
@@fenlinescouser4105 interesting it would have made a lot of sense to do that, I honestly don't know why they didn't at all gotta love the TFL sometimes
Yet another great video from you, however, it would be very helpful if you had included a link to Google maps for example, of the area featured in your video.
More brilliant maps! I guess the reason stations get built for new developments is that the developers cough up for it. It's never enough and they always seem to negotiate it down, but I guess it is a financial incentive of sorts?
Enjoyed the “period architecture” of the housing. Called “Brutalist” in some quarters… it did bring me back to my pre-teen Beatles days. For all intents and purposes Thamesmead suffers from a lack of political clout …the absence of which allows planners and administrators to discount the areas needs and general worth …over and over… again. Future urban growth will eventually put a premium on the “residential viability” of Thamesmead….. and before you can say abracadabra… 💥 … a public transportation line of some sort will whisk you to …say… Canary Wharf … Enjoyed the very “well presented” saga of these broken promises. In fact…the sardonic summary made the frustrations all too clear. Yes…one day perhaps… but apparently …..no one should hold their breath.
I think Thamesmead should really have a line that connects to central london which is why I prefer the Jubilee line to have a branch line connecting to Thamesmead from North Greenwich. Having said that, it’s all down to cost, but if you build it, they will come.
I expect if anything does get done it will be the cheapest version, perhaps extending the DLR? I think the route you showed through to Barking and back to Abbey Wood would be most useful, especially with the Elizabeth Line coming. I've always felt that an outer 'circle line' or two would be advantageous for Londoners generally, otherwise to get to most places you need to travel into central London. Surely this would be the best way to get people out of their cars for lots of journeys?
I bet someone at TfL has ran the calcs and deducted that the population at Thamesmead is much less likely to pay for the transport cost into central London as quite a lot of it is social housing, therefore they pump money into developing Battersea and Barking as those neighbourhoods are much more likely to feature people that would commute into London. A such, the transport link remains uninteresting in generating money.
It feels almost as if there's a sense of apathy in the vein of "Thamesmead has done for so long without it, it can't possibly need it now."
I fear so.
Even though of course, it has needed it all along and hasn’t truly done well without it!
"Therefore, a new route was suggested for the Fleet Line which would drive it across the Isle of Dogs... up to Barking." Oh come on, London. You can't just casually pretend that's not intentional.
I live near Thamesmead, and I've always thought that area was very weird, as it didn't have any way of easily getting into central London without having to take a bus to Woolwich or Abbey Wood. Even though Thamesmead seems to have a huge amount of space I'm sure developers would love to build on.
Personal, working in central London, if there is more than 2 tube connections I have to take to reach my destination it already feels tiring, let alone having to add a bus into it. it sounds silly but I'd rather walk 10 minutes to a station than take 10 minutes on a bus to a station.
Yep - not only does it have no rail station but also no easy way of getting across the Thames, it being roughly equidistant from the crossings at Woolwich and Dartford. It desperately needs a rail link to provide one and I do think the Gallions Reach tunnel proposal is the best option available. You basically cannot llive in Thamesmead and communicate easily to the centre of the city.
Of course you will still have to wait for that bus so it's always easier to walk.
A mile is about 15 minutes' walk,which should be no challenge - indeed a good thing to stay in reasonable shape - for the able bodied. But it would be good if a loop could be added from Abbey Wood via Thamesmead,though I bet it would be expensive.
@@hairyairey: or you could just check any number of bus timetable apps. I never leave home without checking mine.
@@rjjcms1 Actually most people walk at less than 3 mph. 4mph and above is rare. But yes, it would be expensive but it will give alternative routes out of Abbey Wood.
As a mere provincial guy - used to being ignored by London-centric politics - I was amazed to learn from this video about Thamesmead having the same treatment as us mortals who dare to enjoy life in the provinces. I never knew where Thamesmead was until a few minutes ago.
Don’t worry you’re going to be levelled up!
@@keithpanda CC&T just shouldn't hold his breath! 🥶
@@keithpanda Or do they mean just levelled?
Well said regarding the lack of movement on a Thamesmead line. I was at uni when the idea was first mooted in 1973, and I am now an OAP. Planners ought to make their mind up which route is best, get on and build the damn thing rather than just sitting in offices for 50 years arguing and planning things between tea breaks.
That puts things into perspective 😮
Or perhaps accountants should be forced to loosen the purse-strings so that the planners can actually get what they plan built? Every failed project I've ever seen hasn't failed because the planners decide to play with another variant of the scheme but because the money wasn't forthcoming. :(
Why do you think it's planners who make the decisions about spending money?
@@atraindriver Or perhaps things will never be spent on places like Thamesmead when there are competing claims for Canary Wharf, where important people can make lots of money. Good Grief! I'm starting to sound like a Leftist.
Regarding 1:39 and Abbey Wood being "about a mile away": Where I grew up in the suburbs, the local station was exactly a mile away, and for the whole of my life it has been "just round the corner", i.e. very convenient and local. This whole concept of what counts as inconvenient inside the big city is quite different from what people experience in suburbia. Out here, if you have a station within a 20 minute walk you consider yourself well served.
That's true enough. Our station is 25 minutes walk away from our house, and it's in the centre of town. But surely what Jago means is it's a mile from the edge of a very large housing development - in 2008 according to Wikipedia 41,000 people in a fairly widely scattered area. So a lot more than a mile for some residents.
@@peterdawson2645: Yeah, when I used to catch trains into Central London the station(s) I used were about a mile away and a 12-15min walk. Though tiring in the mornings, it was just about manageable (and maybe I still needed more exercise, even then!) but if it were double that or more, I probably would be moaning a lot at the very least (and that's with the assumption that the walking route is flat!)
Heh, the nearest passenger rail station to my home is 160 miles away by the shortest (but not fastest, oddly enough) route. But then, where I live, public transport of any kind is considered dangerously communistical.
Most of Thamesmead is more than a mile from the station - in some cases two miles. That's 40 minutes walk for a lot of people.
What if I told you some people are old and not great walkers?
At the time I was living in Thamesmead around 40 years ago, I was working in the City. The railway service was tragic, so I had to drive. The roads out of Thamesmead were marvellous until you hit Plumstead, about three miles away. I changed jobs and country largely because of the problems of transport.
Aarrggghh,Plumstead was where I got seriously snarled up in hopeless traffic one Saturday afternoon in October 1986,driving back through London with a friend from an overnight in Southend and foray into Kent to my home then in Watford. Is it any better now?
I'd imagine the social stigma associated with Thamesmead as A LOT to do with this but there might be some light at the end of the yet to be built tunnel. Woolwich has a DLR station, sure, but it now also has a fancy new Elizabeth line station (Canary Wharf in 8mins!) that's built inside the newly redeveloped Arsenal itself - the Arsenal being where you live if you're fortunate to have the money to (the average 2 bed flat with river/city view will be roughly 2k+ per month) but of course you tell people you live in Greenwich, not Woolwich. (technically true, but still...) I know this because I used to live in the new development and you couldn't help but tell people you lived in Greenwich because Woolwich has it's own stigma attached to it. Woolwich has had a SLOW redevelopment process over the last 20 years and in the last 5 has stalled considerably (the Arsenal, aside), walking around Woolwich is like being in an 80's time warp, you expect to see a Woolworths whenever you turn a corner. Maybe when Thamesmead's new developments are finished there will be more of a push to get a rail link there, because they sure as heck could charge the young, single finance types to pay 2k per month to live there if it had good connections.
The government only approved Woolwich getting a Crossrail station on the proviso that someone else paid for it all. Berkeley Homes paid a good chunk of it (for obvious reasons) and Greenwich council a small amount, which they raise from taxing other developments to build near the station. There's quite a big shortfall that still needs to be paid from the council's contribution, so good luck getting anything new done for a while.
The difference being, all the extensions you list had major developments, the developers of which often pay handsomely to have new stations so they can advertise their often overpriced flats and offices as being so many minutes from central London.
Although it may be costly (and, OK, I admit, potentially slow on its initial uptake), I would argue for the proposed Overground extension from Barking Riverside to Abbey Wood via Thamesmead. That particular route would maximise the available destinations/connections from Thamesmead without having to change too many times or go through central London which in turn would encourage increased use of public transport in the area and allow TfL to recoup its investment fairly easily.
That's the one that looks like the best option to me,too. How much does the capacity of DLR trains differ from the Overground/Underground?
My favourite is still extending the Goblin line to Abbey Wood from Barking Riverside.
But it's amazing how, when a council builds it, all the planning requirements that are a necessity for a private development aren't a requirement.
It's how councils manage to build the ugliest buildings...
Theres a physical problem in doing that now. Such an extension by tunnel needs a significant portal length to route under the river. Transport planners are rubbish. Every project they do is short sighted, corner cutting, compromises, that please noone.
As a US outsider, I've heard that if the railway is in a tunnel, you can actually build a station underground next to the railway. You could call it something like, I don't know, maybe "The Underground". Just a crazy wild idea.
@@davidwebb4904 They could do what they did with Island Gardens. I remember going to the old station on top of the viaduct before they put the new station underground as part of going under the river to Greenwich.
@@davidwebb4904 Maybe that's because public transport faces such an uphill battle to get built because schemes are frequently hit with budget constraints and vehement opposition from people who don't understand what schemes entail. Almost like, in a country where people consider owning a car as a form of success, schemes which aren't designed with that at the forefront have issues getting approval.
@@michaelleiper Exactly, only, who would approve the demolition of the brand new station? Also, the Thanes is wider and deeper there, making the approach longer and deeper than island gdns.
In (I think) 1969 I had a holiday job with the London Borough of Bexley Engineer's Department building a scale model to show the flyover which was about to be built across the railway at Abbey Wood to replace the level crossing. The plans (and my model) showed the station to be relocated with an entrance at flyover level and steps down to the platforms. The platforms would have been extended across where the level crossing was and under the new flyover, with a third platform to terminate trains at Abbey Wood. Although there was passive provision for the new station building when the bridge was built, it's only now, 50-odd years later, that anything like that has actiually happened. Shows how long you have to wait for transport changes at Thamesmead! Incidentally, it was a very odd experience walking round the area after the bridge had been built and the roads realigned and feeling you'd been shrunk to scale model size...
The speed and time schedule of trying to breed mammoths,probably.
I moved to Thamesmead in 1978, Stage 3 the bus to Abbey Wood Station ran every hour the 272 the walk was 30 mins. The bus would leave empty from Abbey Wood Station to Stage 3. 5 mins before the train from London arrived so i would walk home. I put up with it for 2 years before moving out to Walderslade in Kent. Best thing i ever did. Thamesmead was just a place to house thousands of people and forget about them. By the way the problem was Half The estate was in London and the other Half in Kent. So nobody took control.
You mean half the estate was in Greenwich (Lab) and half in Bexley (Con). The whole of Thamesmead is in Greater London.
@@mjcats2011 I think at the time, Bexley was considered "Kent", despite officially being a part of Greater London, since 1964.
To be fair, over the years Thamesmead has become rather less isolated than it once was in public transport terms. Sure, it still relies exclusively on buses to link it into the rail network - but those buses are *far* more frequent and reliable than they were in the 70s and 80s.
And back then they only linked into the BR line via Plumstead - a poor substitute for a proper metro service. But when the Jubilee Line Extension opened in 1999, Thamesmead got a direct (if rather lengthy) bus service to North Greenwich to connect with it. Far more important was the opening of the DLR to Woolwich Arsenal a decade later - this is much closer to Thamesmead, and linked to it by multiple bus routes. These days, Thamesmead's connectivity with the Underground / DLR network is comparable to that of many other areas of suburban London.
The imminent opening of the Elizabeth Line will dramatically improve connectivity still further - even if the Abbey Wood terminus is still a short bus ride from Thamesmead itself. In effect, the Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood is a direct replacement for a Jubilee Line branch to Thamesmead.
To be fair, a lot of city planners and budgeters likely uses the excuse, "But this existing community have been doing fine for over 50 years already, and they have plenty of parking spaces that we can't have. Why do WE have to give them a rail link?"
But yes, a community as densely populated as Thamesmead should have had a rail link long ago regardless. Especially when so many options exist in the area.
Extending the DLR from where it has already crossed the river at Woolwich Arsenal is a decent move, likewise is an extension from Abbey Wood.
why the funding bid to do it was never made I dont know. Given that Crossrail was going to Abbey Wood, was it neccessary for the DLR to go there too ?
The buses from Abbey Wood station to Thamesmead isnt that bad, running every 10 to 15 mins. Yes, I did enjoy living there and yes it is quieter than Woolwich that's for certain.
Fair enough, but when I lived there it was far quicker to walk (well over a mile) to Abbey Wood than wait for a bus.
@@rodjones117 Not many walk sub 15 minute miles so well done you!
@@hairyairey I do walk at about 4 mph, but my point is that the buses didn't run anything like every 10-15 minutes when I lived there.
Every 15 mins isn't often enough, it's a waste of time for the folks living there.
@@davidsixtwo there are places near me that don't even get an hourly bus service and that's in a city! London is spoiled for buses
Oh I love Jago’s narration. These videos should be played to government ministers and transport planners as they’re really effective at demonstrating the folly of failing to plan.
At 3 minutes in I was wondering how the River Line going eastwards from Fenchurch Street would visit Thamesmead East and Thamesmead Central before reaching Thamesmead West
As a scotsman, a rural scotsman at that I nearly spat my coffee out when it was mentioned that the nearest station to Thamesmead was a whole mile away. I beg your pardon? Up here in the wilds its not uncommon for the nearest rail station to be 10... 20 ... 30.... 40 or more miles away. We even some what ridiculously have a station that's some 12 miles from the nearest road. Can't the people in Thamesead travel a paltry mile to the nearest station? I guess I just don't realise how GOOD the public transport is in London, or conversely Londoners don't realise how bad it is else where.
Yes. But have you ever lived in one of these places with public transport within walking distance? I'd say you get the better part of the deal.
@@nicolek4076 oh absolutely 💯%. I enjoy learning about places like London, but no way I would want to live in a city! Even small Scottish cities like Dundee or Aberdeen are a bit too .... people-y for me after a few days 🤣 The town I live in is a little more than mile or so from end to end and no more than half a mile wide. I live in the centre, and am no more than 10 minute walk from the open green spaces. Getting public transport anywhere is a bit of a chore though, but I just hop on the motorbike so thats all good 👍
@@Decrepit_biker It sounds lovely, rather similar to my situation in Yorkshire. although we're on a pretty good bus route (every 20 minutes) and have a railway station within half a mile. But I look out of my window and see rolling green hills. Like you, I got the better side of the deal.
Yea but you can ride a stag to the station and park it! There’s always an up side.
@@andyrob3259 its not so easy, the buggers keep.wandering off....
I can't claim to know Thamesmead but I accidently went there in the early '90's, it was frankly depressing, and we lived in Woolwich which says a lot.
I actually was a member of the building crew back in 1969 just prior going to Tech College My Dad was a GLC surveyor and got me the Job Thames mead was supposed to build all along the Southbank of the Thames as far as Graves End all Transport done by the A2/M2 road
Sadly in Sydney, Australia these sorts of developments built away from railway stations are quite common. There are currently still several housing developments being built quite a distance from any rail or light rail station. London is quite spoilt for rail transport options, and even Thamesmead (by Sydney standards) is still quite close to rail transport being only a 10 minute drive from Abbey Wood.
100%. Here in Australia being within 1 mile or 1.6 klms of a train station is sold as a benefit and close to transport! Suppose it’s all releative when other newer but richer areas already well served get trains before a working class area that’s been asking for it for 40 years.
I have to laugh when a mile away is considered distant :) While living in Canada's capital, the nearest train station was 20 km away. Now, my nearest rail station is 1400 km away. And I'm close to a provincial capital! You might say I'm a little bitter about the state of passenger rail in Canada.
That said, Being a mile away from an under or overground station would be a royal pain.
Yet rail freight in Canada is more widespread isn't it?
@@hairyairey Freight is the dominant rail form in North America - nearly every passenger service must account for it, and freight companies own the majority of the trackage. This often changes closer into major cities, but doesn't help less settled areas.
@@hairyairey Yes. CN Rail divested it's passenger services back in the 70s, which were nationalized into VIA Rail. Freight takes priority over passenger rail, as the companies still own the track. With large stretches of track not twinned, this can result in hours long delays in passenger service, where you sit on a siding and watch kilometers long freight trains pass by.
@@hairyairey And, passenger service coverage is a tiny fraction of what it used to be, with entire provinces without it. It's quite disheartening.
The saga of the Thamesmead rail link sounds like it ought to be the subject of a Beckett play... probably the best hope is for a DLR extension, but don't hold your breath
"Waiting for Transport"
The problem with extending the DLR at its extremities is that the journey times become exhaustingly slow and ponderous.. the journey from woolwich arsenal to bank for example is LONG. I feel that the overground from barking riverside to abbey wood is the smartest choice, hopefully the powers that be see it worth investing in.
I lived in Thamesmead for 2 years. Rough barely covers it, plus no infrastructure or transport links... (First with an actual comment, as if anybody cares... )
100%. They can find money to extend a line 2 stations to cater for the smug upper middle class in their Battersea riverside apartments and nights out at expensive restaurants; but not 20,000+ in an entire suburb plonked there by government with 40 years of promises.
That's the UK for you. Working class oiks from the "slum" areas of big cities were hoofed out from the cities and dumped, effectively in the middle of nowhere, in places like Thamesmead and Telford in order to allow those big city areas to be redeveloped for "better" people.
The oiks were unwanted by those traditionally in power in the areas they ended up in, were deemed unimportant by everyone in power everywhere and so nobody cared what they wanted, then or now.
Doesn't matter which political party is in power, they've been screwed by the system ever since they were dumped and will continue to be screwed in the future.
The private developers paid for the Northern Line Extension, not the state.
@@ttrjw ok. Fair enough. But the private developers don’t staff them as well and pay the ongoing maintenance? Plus they were designed to extend beyond as well. And that would be paid by the state.
“ The extension was funded by a £1bn loan to the Greater London Authority from the Public Works Loan Board to be repaid by developer contributions (Section 106 agreements and Community Infrastructure Levy) in the Vauxhall Nine Elms Battersea area, as well as through business rates.”
Brilliant summary- how depressing that while Battersea gets a new station Thamesmead is unable to. 😠
I remember spending a fortnight in Thamesmead, one Thursday afternoon...
I think you need to have been there to fully understand this comment!
@@petemessenger9514 I totally get it - absolutely nothing to do except drunken violence...
In the draft 1967 SE timetable, there was provision for an hourly Cannon Street to Margate service via Greenwich with first stop at Abbey Wood, intended to boost the service for Thamesmead. It never happened.
Lol, I was thinking Wombling free as you said "inevitable joke"
I live here and an interesting mention, most people say thanks to the driver when alighting the peasant wagon. there's also a lesser spotted woodpecker that visits the huge willow tree in my back garden its a lovely place
The reputation of Thamesmead has definitely changed. It used to be considered a dangerous place to go.
İsolation played right into the hands of the yobs & crooks that took over and really run it
Like you, I feel sorry for Thamesmead. Back in the early 1980s I was a student in Woolwich, and Thamesmead was the cheapest place to find accommodation because it was in the middle of nowhere. It was also the cheapest place in London to buy a house (even in 1990 you could buy a 3/4 bed house for about £30K). Personally, I always loved the Brutalist architecture of Thamesmead (because I was a country boy, and it was therefore exciting). I still feel that it could shine. Woolwich was also a backwater in the 1980s but the arrival of DLR has changed all that. If only Thamesead was given its chance.
The Battersea Power Station Station Stop Station was partly funded by property developers flogging fancy yet ugly flats on the river, and it was only a short distance. Thamesmead is miles away from any connections, and it's a very poor area.
Battersea Power Stations Station to be precise. Or Battersea Power Station (x3) if you prefer.
'Thamesmead is miles away from any connections, and it's a very poor area.' That is not stopping Berkeley from its development with plans to sell flats for up to £662,500. In reality, many will be sold off plan to overseas "investors" as somewhere to park their money.
Well I live in Thamesmead and the buses to Woolwich or Abbey wood are great, I don't think we need a rail line as each destination at worst case scenario takes 15 mins to get there.
Very interesting developments from old Bakerloo line to form Fleet/Jubilee line with possible build to Thamesmead. I remember this in the 70's when living at Abbey Wood. I recall too, the Abbey Wood level crossing and old bus routes, 180/171A to Tottenham on Sundays. Abbey Wood has changed much since then although transport links and Crossrail have advanced, it was a nice time back then.
Hi Jago, When I get in from work now outside of London now in Sudbury.
My wife loves your calming voice .
So Sudbury the Train line . Interesting. It used to run from Marks Tey to Bury St Edmunds. Branches off every where now only Sudbury to Marks Tey . Bridges are still in place , worth a video.....
Also Kelvedon to Maldon is interesting.
You used to be able to get a map of the town from the thamesmead town offices where Sainsbury's car park now stands, in it was the proposed rail line. As thamesmead finally got it's extension to the town centre I think it is never going to have its own railway. It's split into two locally and neither council has shown any interest in the town for years
Being a tube nerd myself, I'd quite like the tube line extension. Failing that, the DLR extension sounds the most logical. Still, logical and/or nerdy arent planning considerations. I would agree that the bigger picture has been and is still being missed. It is probable that Thamesmead will only get a station when its on a stop to somewhere else.
It was so stupid how they did the DLR extention to Woolwich Arsenal as the train track trajectory is in the compete opposite to what you need to go thamesmead so you would have to build a new station at Woolwich Arsenal or extend from Gallions reach
I presume in Past the Jubilee went to Stratford because there were existing tracks .
Wombling free was just escaping my lips when you said the line....
DLR at Woolwich is built with tunnels facing west, not east - incredibly short-term planning...
What about if they reversed the trains at Woolwich to take them via Plumstead to Thamesmead? Safety standards and signalling permitting, it shouldn’t take long, as the trains run automated anyway?
It would be lovely for Thamesmead to have a new station, but since the nearest is only a mile away I really think it's time the endless spending on transport in the London area was suspended so the rest of us can start to have something close to a useful public transport system. A station just a mile away is something I can only dream about.
Just out of interest, why don't they just extend Crossrail from Abbey Wood to Thamesmead? Surely a mile of track not crossing the Thames is not as costly as some of these grand schemes? Bearing in mind that I don't know the area well (based out of Scotland) so I don't know if there are any issues blocking the way.
Knowing the area, I’d say a way is to extend the sidings at plumstead station (before abbey wood) up onto the Ridgeway path (a path placed on top of an embankment on a sewer main) and extend it the mile or 2 out to a new station at Thamesmead, by the lake.
@@a1white That's a neat idea, but the Ridgeway still looks a fair bit south of much of Thamesmead so maybe only about half a mile nearer than Abbey Wood and still outside easy walking distance for a lot of people. There's an interesting N-S road/path shown on the map west of Crossway park that goes up to the river, but no obvious site for a station.
if it should extend to anywhere it should be slade green and the sidings there. the dlr and overground from barking sound like better ideas.
Ok, I can imagine the most of the UK would really love their nearest station to be "ABOUT A MILE AWAY".
Indeed, let me introduce you to Lincolnshire...
Yes, indeed!
The people of Hawick, certainly. And don't get me started about Brechin or Forfar!
How would the 1974 "River Line" have served Woolwich Arsenal, Thamesmead East, Thamesmead Central and Thamesmead West in that order? Surely, Thamesmead West would have been served after Woolwich or was there to be a loop at the end?!
Yeah, I noticed that also, but thought I would leave it to someone else to mention.
@@davidwebb4904 The same mistake was made with respect to the proposed Jubilee extension eastward from Fenchurch St. Maybe he should acquire a compass.
A joy, as always.
Thank you 😊.
Thamesmead looks like an ideal location for A Clockwork Orange remake.
Your video was less bleak and depressing than the brutalist architecture used in Thamesmead. Regeneration cannot come soon enough and a new station would help enormously.
I am unable to comment on best solution, living across the Atlantic, but I must say transit is a significant key to activating moribund public streets. Activate those streets by causing people to use them to reach transit and you will enable community commercial enterprise. I know of Thamesmead only thru architectural study. I agree it has a lot of potential. I want it to see it succeed.
I didn't know that an early Jubilee line extension had plans to Barking & Thamesmead.
I like the overground extension. Though with Barking Riverside being so high, the line would have to take quite a drop to get down under the Thames.
The DLR extension is ok but I think it wouldn't have the capacity and could make service worse on the Beckton Branch. Also, the Overground has the potential to be extended as far as Bromley if need be.
It depends on what happens with TFL in terms of funding. I feel that the disproportionate dependence on fares for tfl funding came from the central government being able to blame london government for failings of money as the London government is often of the opposite party compared with Westminister
I think if the plans were done in the late 60s early 70s, the costs rocketed 1973 with the oil price rises, inflation and public borrowing. If the arabs had not raised the prices, maybe it would have happened as intended (and Docklands at the time were still docks - just - )!
The DLR can handle some very impressive gradients, just have a look around Poplar.
“The nearest rail link is a mile away” [cries in American]
An interesting route would be riverside overground going through Thamesmead connecting with Abbey wood; taking over the southeastern route and joining back with Surrey quays via deptford station. This could potentially free up the track beyond Abbey wood to Dartford for crossrail. Just an idea 😂
Option 2…extend the DLR from the existing train depot underground through to Thamesmead and then Abbey Wood once again taking the existing route from Abbey wood to Greenwich which it would then join the existing route to Lewisham…I’m guessing this might be tested with the Woolwich to Mudchute route right now whilst they renovate Bank…again just a whacky idea 🤔😅
This sounds familiar. Great sounding ideas and plans to help economically depressed or underserved areas that are never realized. Why do I get the feeling I've heard this song and dance recently?
I live in a fairly dense area of a large American city, and Thamesmead is still 3 miles closer to Abbey Wood than I am to my closest bus stop, which is 4 miles away and gets 6 buses a day.
I suppose a cable car route would be out off the question?
Sadly as you and others have pointed out, once the people move in the promise of shops and pubs and needed infrastructure goes out the window. The same happened where live. Flats and houses, the developer's plan had shop/supermarket school etc. Also no public transport link.
So the curse of Horace Cutler's GLC lives on!
Brilliant video sir, love the womble joke lol. How about a London overground extension from Barking Riverside to Thamesmead then down to uhh Sidcup?
Thamesmead really have been treated shabbily. Hope this is rectified at some point in the near-ash future. Great video as always Mr Hazzard.
Extend the National Rail line north eastwards along the existing sewer from Plumstead to Thamesmead. Then place an 4-6tph Overground service to Thamesmead from Clapham Junction via Brixton, Peckham Rye, Lewisham and Woolwich Arsenal.
Thamesmead, we Southeast Londoners feel your pain. 😔
So when they planned the Fleet/Jubilee line extension they were also going to move Barking to roughly where Bromley-by-Bow is 😉
Lol the underground overground or wombling free bit got to me cause as you were saying it that was exactly what I thought about
4:29 - ‘When Crossrail hopefully opens’. - Well according to my Crossrail publicity leaflet that is going to happen on 10 December 2018.
Whenever Thamesmead is mentioned on this channel, it always sounds like it's literally in the middle of nowhere! Then when I heard the nearest station was a whole mile away, I realised that it was really was serious situation...
The best option might be levelling the place and starting again.
Its going to flood soon anyway
If Thamesmead was properly connected it would be one of the best places in London to live. It’s a essentially a massive park with homes for thousands of people.
Great Vid! Again highlighting the terrible inequalities of British life, Battersea Power Station to serve the posh and nothing for Thamesmead for the not so posh!
Poor ole Thamesmead...... so many promised builds..... yet so near, yet so far !!
I enjoyed a fascinating walk (note: walk) from Woolwich to Thamesmead last October (alas, we missed out on a tour of the Crossness sewage works the same day). It's mind-boggling to think public transport was given such scant consideration when the area was first developed for residential living. So many missed opportunities to add good rail links since then, too. I agree, Thamesmead has great potential and puts me in mind of some of Stockholm's suburbs (the water, I guess). I first became intrigued via 'Beautiful Thing' (1996).
Any of those proposals you mentioned would have been worthwhile. Thamesmead remains a curiosity in London urban planning. , but one that I also strongly believe must be rectified
It must be within somebody's budget just to rename one of the Thamesmead housing blocks as Thamesmead Station ... what else could they need?
One of my mates lives in Thamesmead, and I find it shocking that it's not getting the appropriate rail it deserves. Yeah, money and all, but y'all could've found a way round it. Wouldn't have been half as expensive as what the Lizzy Line ended up being.
Ooh, I remember that mile walk to Abbey Wood station to go to work in High Holborn via Euston station. Didn’t mind the walk in the morning too much, but the walk back on a dark winter’s evening with the pea soup fog, was quite scary! Such a shame the infrastructure wasn’t built to support the build Thamesmead estate, as it was quite innovative for its time & had it had the investment it was promised & deserved, it would be a different story today. Oh, but wait, it was built as social housing, so of course it’s not 😡😡
There are a few hypotheses I could suggest as to why new developments get priority over existing ones, and the likelihood is possibly a combination of some or all of them.
1) New developments are usually taken up due to their potential. Often that potential is tied to making money and travel links will be integral to that (more jobs and more people).
2) Politicians, now more than ever, are keen to save face. New developments completed on their time look good. You'd think they'd do that for existing infrastructure, but if they only want to open their one project, it'll be for the new one. And that's partly tied to point 3.
3) This is what *Not Just Bikes* called the _"Growth Ponzi Scheme",_ which sees new development as growth. The people supplying the projects sell the dream to the government of perpetual growth, downplaying the money the developers themselves pocket. Shiny new developments are an easy sell because you're bringing in something new, and that means new money.
4) The problem with the length of time for old sites like the one in the video is that it's gone 50 years, despite the neglect, without being a perceived problem. It has survived without rail links and a bridge for _so long,_ so why does it need one now? But this is a deliberate and self-serving rhetoric to remove oneself from responsibility, something many politicians and government/department heads have used for centuries.
5) I'm going to be very frank here, but a lot of this is caused by this nation's mystifying continual bad habit of voting for the conservatives. Time and again they let us down. They let you down. In fact, they openly laugh in our faces, publicly, while actively ruining the country and letting it deteriorate. Two prolific examples are the Owen Paterson scandal, where an MP broke the rules so horrendously badly, that they wanted to change the rules and cover them up. And then there's Boris Johnson, who told us all that we couldn't gather in groups of more than two, only to then not only have multiple large gatherings himself, at his house, but they were full blown parties.
That disgusting attitude to people in general is exactly why rejuvenation never happens. Us and our lives are meaningless to them. And honestly? They should be incarcerated for breaking the law like they did.
Good points. However incarceration may be a better option than incarnation 😜 (especially reincarnation 😭)
@@PlayitonPan Excellent catch. 😁 Edited and updated (there's probably more in there to boot).
I totally agree with you regarding the loop on the DLR it’s probably the cheapest option to finally giving Thamesmead the transport link it needs
Here's hoping the middle class eventually get the rail station they've deserved! Ironically, this community got built around the same time the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center were under construction. Thamesmead essentially opened the same time as the Towers. Only to find itself out lasting those great structures. We Americans went through similar bureaucracy issues with cars versus trains during the 50's, 60's and 70's. If you get a chance, look up a man named Robert Moses to get a better understanding of my city's complicated transit history...
Unfortunately, Moses believed his name. Names of too many public facilities and utilities in NY include the creepy word "Authority". Living a safe distance away, I read the NY Post for schadenfreude.
What about the lack of rail in Crouch End, Muswell Hill and Friern Barnet?
(Incidentally, having left London, I am now about 90 minutes drive from the nearest rail.)
The line was going to be "The Norther Heights" but became "Parkland Walk" (a muggers special). That should be converted back to, maybe, light rail.
I love your videos thank you 👍
The problem Thamesmead has is that they do not have people lobbying for them like the investors do.
One can only hope parts of the area are appointed for a redevelopment that warrants a station!
Keep up the good work; Thamesmead clearly needs your good offices.
I remember Thamesmead from college placements in the 1990s. Our dear mayor is still floating the idea of a Bristol tube. We had coal mines in the city until 1925 (South Liberty Colliery) I think, whilst there are stories of miners at Dean Lane hearing the rumble of trains from Temple Meads. No mention seems to be made of these old mine shafts when a tube system is proposed. No mention either of reviving the old Bristol to Bath Railway that's now a cycle path. Feel free to visit the Strawberry Line in spring. We've cheese, cider and err, strawberries.
Now I know who Jago really is! He's *Uncle Bulgaria* from the Wombles!! :-D
Joking aside, I loved that reference, and now I'm going to binge watch some Wombles episodes!!
Oh yes, nice to see some bits of London we don't usually hear about - thanks as always ;-))
The Gallions Reach DLR via Abbey Wood, etc will be the best solution (I have an urge to call the DLR the Wombling Free Line now 🤣😂😅) for Thamesmead I think, simply because it is the most affordable option, despite the Thames needing to be traversed somehow.
The Woolwich Arsenal option illustrated won’t work simply because the railway is aligned the wrong way. We use the DLR frequently en route to Charlton and as the train emerges from the tunnel, it swings right and into the station in a westerly direction. An alternative would of course be if they decided it made sense to use Woolwich Arsenal as a terminus and then continue with a branch shuttle along the south bank via Thamesmead. Then again, they could start there, go via Thamesmead and then turn north and across/under the Thames to the new riverside developments on the opposite side.🤔
The Barkingside option is the one I like in principle the most, but I just can’t see it happening, not least because as you candidly point out, they only seem to be able to find stations if the money comes from elsewhere (pathetic really) so even public transport is now a matter of whim for the wealthy it seems. Need public transport that has been offered for 5 decades but not a wealthy area? Hmmm….nahhh…Throw up a steel and glass leviathan cash spinner for rich dicks and then hold the network to ransom by refusing to build affordable housing you were obliged to in principle from the start? Oh go on then…🙄
It does make me chuckle when the distance of a mile is considered a “long way” all the same 🤣 But then again, in this case it is the principle. This outpost was created with promises that were never fulfilled and repeatedly allowed to evaporate in the ether over decades. Almost like the governmental equivalent of the child catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, promising a freedom with plenty of opportunities and then realising they’d stuck you in an open prison.🤔
Also, in London, if you are not easy to get to and are not stacked with cash, it means local businesses won’t thrive and you don’t get the knock on multiplier effect, which I guess is another reason to encourage improvement. However, the down side to this will of course be that n the long run, it may become more desirous to line there and in time the poor folk will be turfed or priced out and it will be rebranded Thamesmead Riverside 🤷🏻♂️
Ah well…interesting topic yet again. Thanks Jago 👍🍻🍀
You are so right. A big shame, that now in 2022, more then 50 years after the 'beginning' of Thamesmead, there is still no proper, above or underground, rail connection. This is really unbelievable. If the original plans of Thamesmead were carried out properly, (marina, tube connection, new bridge over the Thames etc, etc...), it would have become one of the most popular places to live in the greater London area, imho.
7:35 Making all use of the jokes that we find. Jokes that the everyday Jago leaves behind!
Good one Jago 👍
What do we have hear a jago upload Great 👍🏻🇬🇧
When I lived in Peckham Rye, 50 years ago, I was about a mile away from Crofton Park, Brockley and Nunhead and slightly further away from Peckham Rye, which was the station I used. For the last 40 years I have lived 20 miles away from a station, so can't see how being 1 mile away from a station is a disadvantage to communications.
A station about a mile away. In Norfolk we call that living large.
The big snag with Thamesmead looks to be that because a rail link wasn't planned into it in the first place, it looks difficult to retrofit any sensible route, at least on the surface, and tunnelling multiplies costs severalfold. A DLR extension might work as it can manage sharper curves and steeper gradients than heavy rail. Incidentally, the original idea of adding a station east of Plumstead doesn't look much better than Abbey Wood - still almost as far from Thamesmead proper.
It's been reported in the last couple of days that Sadiq Khan could shut the tube for "days on end" because of the £1.5 billion black hole." The Sun 2 Feb 2022", So is London going to be a city of walkers?
Rather a strange way to save money, if marginal revenue exceeds marginal cost, keep running. basically trying to scare the treasury
@@highpath4776 It's in The Sun. The original quote was probably that they needed to save X amount of money which would be the same as it would cost to keep the tube running for Y days. The Sun and their ilk aren't exactly famous for accurate reporting of anything said by someone they dislike, are they?
@@atraindriver I tend to follow myLondon or New Civil Engineer for rail info. I think Picc Line Signalling Upgrade expenditure has at least been canx or postponed. Its not too difficult to save some money running headways a little less - every 4 mins rather than 3 for example. Problem for Govt is that TfL has expanded so much since the 1980s, with the take on of overground and TfL rail services that mainly would have been a BR problem, add in DLR costs (fairly low I would imagine compared to others). Plus crossrail not bringing in fares revenue in the expected years and one can see that effectively TfL needs a massive financial loan that can only be repaid over a 40 year period, with little scope to reduce fixed costs without yet more initial investment. The TfL model in the London sense is more one of the Metropolitan Line's (or its Directors!) idea of expect significantly greater density of housing near tube stations (or increase the work places), and use that uplift in council tax to provide general london revenue, as such it always seems to me odd not to have connected Thamesmead with elements of additional housing units.
I remember a proposal suggesting an increase in frequency on DLR on the Woolwich Arsenal branch. Concern that the terminus would not be able to cope with the extra movements led to the suggestion that a junction be built in the tunnel and a eastern spur rise to a second terminus at Plumstead. Running would be split between the two.
Perhaps this should merit reconsideration, an extension Plumstead to Thamesmead would surely be a no brainer and the whole scheme probably much cheaper than another river crossing.
The issue is they would have to rebuild Woolwich Arsenal DLR Station as the current platform trajectory is in the opposite direction you need to go thamesmead. A poor oversight by TFL honestly
Edit I re-read your comment and you touched on Woolwich Arsenal station issue if they still might have to rebuild Woolwich Arsenal Station.
Plus financially TFL is broke right now lol
@@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1 The then proposal (early 2000s and new extension proposal every fortnight!) was to avoid Woolwich Arsenal by building the junction in the tunnel, south of the river and prior to it veering westward.
@@fenlinescouser4105 interesting it would have made a lot of sense to do that, I honestly don't know why they didn't at all gotta love the TFL sometimes
Personally I like getting the ferry over the river 🙂
Imagine the cheek of '🤩Thames Link🤩' with the Thames Mead still over there with its sore feet🤭😅😏
*I know it's Thamesmead but you get me
Yet another great video from you, however, it would be very helpful if you had included a link to Google maps for example, of the area featured in your video.
More brilliant maps!
I guess the reason stations get built for new developments is that the developers cough up for it. It's never enough and they always seem to negotiate it down, but I guess it is a financial incentive of sorts?
Enjoyed the “period architecture” of the housing. Called “Brutalist” in some quarters… it did bring me back to my pre-teen Beatles days. For all intents and purposes Thamesmead suffers from a lack of political clout …the absence of which allows planners and administrators to discount the areas needs and general worth …over and over… again. Future urban growth will eventually put a premium on the “residential viability” of Thamesmead….. and before you can say abracadabra… 💥 … a public transportation line of some sort will whisk you to …say… Canary Wharf … Enjoyed the very “well presented” saga of these broken promises. In fact…the sardonic summary made the frustrations all too clear.
Yes…one day perhaps… but apparently …..no one should hold their breath.
I think Thamesmead should really have a line that connects to central london which is why I prefer the Jubilee line to have a branch line connecting to Thamesmead from North Greenwich. Having said that, it’s all down to cost, but if you build it, they will come.
I expect if anything does get done it will be the cheapest version, perhaps extending the DLR? I think the route you showed through to Barking and back to Abbey Wood would be most useful, especially with the Elizabeth Line coming. I've always felt that an outer 'circle line' or two would be advantageous for Londoners generally, otherwise to get to most places you need to travel into central London. Surely this would be the best way to get people out of their cars for lots of journeys?
I bet someone at TfL has ran the calcs and deducted that the population at Thamesmead is much less likely to pay for the transport cost into central London as quite a lot of it is social housing, therefore they pump money into developing Battersea and Barking as those neighbourhoods are much more likely to feature people that would commute into London. A such, the transport link remains uninteresting in generating money.