"It costs several thousand pounds to install a public toilet block, and half that to remove it. So we've paid nearly ten thousand pounds on having no toilet. I could have given you no toilet for free!" Stuart Ashen, Sharticles (Paraphrased)
As HS2 has now been quietly scrapped or "put on hold" as the politicians say, I wonder whether that's another "might have been" project like so many others.
It will never be done! My parents back in the 1980s were considering buying a house in Hayes (Kent) the estate agent told them the Bakerloo will be there in 5 years 😂
@@mypointofview1111 Yah, I think he mentioned that in his video about loading gauges. The UK has generally small loading gauges, since they were the first country to build railroad bridges and tunnels and stations on a large scale -- before experience told everyone else that a wider and (especially) taller loading gauge might be better for mainline rail. (I'll edit this and link it if I can find it.)
@@robertwilloughby8050 Quite right. Lower deck passengers apparently could also smell the feet of upper deck ones! There were fewer doors which slowed exit and entry (though modern sliding door stock has even fewer), and complaints that you could be cornered in the upper compartments by thugs. A bright idea that didn't quite work - like quite a few of Bulleid's.
@@ibrahimhossain2776 I believe Half Life 3 is supposedly a game that's been in development for decades, heard about and confirmed many times, but nothing past that
@@ikec-pw5sb Valve realised that there was more money selling other peoples work in a convenient package than spend a fortune making their own games and so Steam was born and the game teams got sent on their way
@@ikec-pw5sb it also funnier that the game developers also keep releasing game that are RELATED to Half Life but NOT Half Life 3 Exactly like this Bakerloo Extension
Never thought of it that way, but it totally fits. At this point though, a Bakerloo Line extenstion is more likely than Half Life 3 (or Portal 3 for that matter).
In fact, geography of London cries to connect Lewisham to Hayes line to Marylebone. Such crossrail line could go via Bond Street (Elizabeth line), Green park, Victoria (Crossrail 2), Waterloo (with exits to Embankment and Westminster), Elephant and Castle (Thameslink) and via Camberwell to Lewisham
@@someoneno-one7672 I think have the thameslink be a fast 30tph service from mitcham junction to millhill via Kingscross , with stops at camberwell and remove city thameslink Bekenham/ Hayes could just be a bakerloo extension from lewisham, and extend newcross overground to slade green via bexleyheath branch I really think south east needs an alternative route to london bridge, elizabeth line is fine, but the overground is slow and so is DLR from lewisham/ woolwich Sladegreen to grays would be so good, and if C2C has a highspeed to kingscross stopping at barking , or heck if they take over the overground past stratford but with less stops (i think stratford international should have more trainlines imo)
If i had a £ for every time the bakerloo line extenison has been proposed, cancelled or delayed, i'd have £26. Which isn't a lot in retrospect, but it's weird that it's happened 26 TIMES?!?!?
They really need to extend something to Thamesmead. It is poor that the whole area doesn’t have any rail transport. Such a large area and no transport is shocking.
I'd guess a quick cheap fix there would be to build a pier and bung in a ferry service to Barking Riverside.. Yes a better long term fix is needed but you could have a ferry service done and dusted in a year or so for a few million, Which in Govt spending terms is chicken feed.
@@britishguy54dx surely im not the only one who thinks the hammersmith line is now useless, past paddington atleast. Also circle line should go from farringdon directly to blackfriars imo. Removing H&C would allow for more metropolitian trains , maybe extend the metropolitian to dartford via liverpool street and new cross
Dreary Helsinki! Well if you love London so much come visit here. Or if you want something more exciting and warmer go to Rome or Istanbul. (but definitely don't go to Moscow, I hear it's drearier than 'sinki)
"...didn't happen more cost-effectively." Gold. Strange that none of these plans were carried out, since most of them were on a direct straight line from Elephant & Castle...
As someone raised in Camberwell & Lewisham who’s lived all down the old Kent road and currently in traffic on it as I type, this extension makes almost too much sense given the amount of residential construction that is going on and it’s painful that they could build the whole Elizabeth line before even trying this 4 stop expansion
Ive lived in Lewisham then Peckham and used to hang around in Camberwell The last 35 years has been soooo bait lol. I really really thought it was going to happen when sainsburys (new x) had a "grassroots org" in their entrance handing out protect the supermarket leaflets. It was all quite exciting! The old toys r us/ lidl site was another place that was ear makerked for a station. If you look at the number of new developments being thrown up along the old kent road right now. It would seem it is/was definitely in the big plan. I would love to see it happen before i die!
This lol! I live close to the old Toys r Us site I thought finally that was going to be site of a potential bakerloo line extension alas I was wrong Hopefully one day! Till then Queens Road Peckham will have to do
The Bakerloo line did run as far as Watford Junction and I often used it… sets were stabled I think at the sheds on the West Watford Croxley Green spur. Clever that they used the same current rails as the EMUs…..
There must’ve been many hours of research to get details of 26 proposals listed and summarised for us. You must surely have enough data to submit a doctoral thesis on the history of the London railway network. 👍👍 from 🇦🇺.
Jago should send a link to his video to the proposers of the current extension to encourage them a little so that one day we don't hear about a 27th serious study for yet another extension.
Always amazed at the amount of research, and the time that must take, that underscores the narrative in each of your videos. Beautifully shot, researched and told - as always. Thank you
Let's dream a little and imagine several projects which would have served the most evocated stations in the different schemes : - Bakerloo line to Hayes via Lewisham - Victoria line to Crystal Palace via Dulwich and Sydenham Hill - W&C line to Bromley South via Camberwell, Peckham Rye, Honor Oak, Catford, Grove Park and the bit between Grove Park and Bromley North I'm immediately organizing a bake sale to get funds for these projects.
It's been some time since I've been to Camberwell Green but I remember there being an information board which seemed excited by the fact they had a Ginkgo tree, I wonder if the person in Southwark council who commissioned it would have been so excited had they known about a half of the roadside trees in Sutton are Maidenhair trees, which is English for Ginkgo tree
For decades now, the received wisdom I heard was that the ground south-east of E&C was such that tunnelling through that ground was extremely dodgy and very likely to cause issues to the buildings above.
@@dambrooks7578 Honestly, I'm skeptical we event want Tube line extensions in South London. Tube stations are to South London housing affordability as the Spanish Inquisition was to Native American populations - we'd quite rather avoid being "civilised", thank you!
It is true (gravelly rather than clay), but it just increases the cost, it's not a complete showstopper. They did get the Northern and Victoria lines built in this general area.
If I recall correctly, there were also plans to re-extend the Bakerloo Line north of Harrow and Wealdstone up to Watford Junction. However, I think these are now on "indefinite hiatus" as well. I feel that the bakerloo line is quite forgotten about and underdeveloped compared to other lines - especially with the age of the trains and lack of extensions
I don't know the area that well, but isn't it just a question of not stopping at Harrow & Wealdstone? The Watford DC lines continue to Watford Junction, and, as far as I know, the same tracks are used both by the Bakerloo and the Overground from Euston.
@@Tevildo That's right. The Bakerloo ran right through to Watford Junction for about 50 years. Although resignalling sometimes affects the feasibility for mixed operation. This has been a big factor in the Croxley Link which on paper looks a very obvious way of linking the Metropolitan line through to Watford and maybe on to St Albans Abbey.
@@Tevildo In the 1970s the Tube map used to show the Bakerloo reaching to Watford Junction. Some time later, the section between Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction had its' appearance changed and was commented something like ""peak times only, full service on British Rail". Later still, that section was removed completely from the map.
@@iankemp1131 isn't tube trains use NR signaling systems from Queen's Park to H&W? I mean 72 stock got a NR Class name, and I've seen some similar to NR looking equipment in the cab in other videos, so it might make sense.
@@Psevdonim123 That's absolutely correct. Obviously when the Bakerloo ran right through to Watford Junction the signalling was compatible, but those were the days before TPWS etc. So I don't know if it can be used beyond H&W nowadays. The Croxley Link would use a separate line out of Watford Junction. You'd think that if it can be solved in one situation it could be for the other as well, but apparently it's a difficulty that would increase the cost by tens or hundreds of millions of pounds according to the report. That would feed on to the Met rather then the Bakerloo so the stock is different. Mind you, apparently simple changes of any sort seem to cost ten times as much when Network Rail are responsible, which is why it's so hard even to introduce a passenger service along an existing freight line. The days in the 1980s when you could just introduce an experimental dmu service from Oxford to Bicester (which worked) and Derby to Sinfin (which didn't) seem to be long gone.
It might be worth reminding people when you were half way through that the every 2min train turnaround was because the Elephant was a single terminal point of a line that bifurcated at Baker Street, with one branch running on the added Met Lines to Stanmore, and the other taking the more original Bakerloo Extensions then onward and up on the LNWR to Watford. The split to the Jubilee was effectively "an extension"- of sorts, where the Stanmore service was relived to Charing Cross via the Bond Street new tunnels , thus allowing a bit of extra min or two of breathing space at Elephant.
Ahhh........ I remember those double decker trains. Thanks for slipping that in a tale about the Bakerloo. I wonder how many other relatively short rail schemes there are being mused. The sort that connect apparently unrelated lines in an attempt to spread the load and offer alternative routes.
There's an episode of the Sweeney, with Brian Blessed playing a well spoken "geezer" you get to see a quite interesting chase scene around Peckham Rye with a dirty 4SUB pulling out the platform as Carter chases the naughty young lad down the trackside.
Eat your heart out French connection. At this juncture I feel it necessary to point out that the French connection is a movie and not a proposed extension of the Bakerloo line !!
It seems it is easier to come up with reasons not to do it than have the vision to make it happen.I'm sure the economic boost would pay for any extension.
my 27th attempt is to send it above ground to Camberwell, than back under to Brixton and through run it with the Victoria Line, thus making one long tube line with a big loop in it.
If it’s going to happen before 2060 it needs to start happening soon! Replacement of the 72TS must surely happen relatively soon (being the oldest rolling stock in regular passenger use in the UK, so that’s the time to increase the fleet size!
@@LondonEmergency999 In which case, it may well be potentially worth their while investigating the possibility of another thorough refurbishment of the stock; along with replacing the traction equipment with something more modern and less high maintenence.
One mustn't underestimate the unrealised cost savings that an unrealised express bus service has over an unrealised tube line. Not only is it less expensive to unrealistically run, it's also unrealistically more flexible, and you won't have to realise an unrealised replacement bus service in case your unrealised tube service suffers an interruption.
Hmmm don't seem to remember Bromley South trains going to London Bridge back in the day, Holborn Viaduct or Victoria, Bromley North was your man for London Bridge and Bromley council were all up for closing that branch for the juicy property building lands it sat upon. Did you know David Bowie grew up alongside Sundridge Park station? Was a hero to us Sundridge Park folks :)
Somewhere amongst my old 1960s Ian Allen Trains Illustrated’s I have a magazine with the Lewisham Bakerloo rail extension idea. Thanks Jago great stuff.
One obstacle to tunnelling south of the Thames in the early 20th Century was the alluvial loose soil in that area; made tunnelling more expensive. Hence trams dominated in South London to places like New Cross, Old Kent Road, Dulwich, Camberwell Green, etc. Elephant and Castle was a major tram junction.
At 9.00 "express service to London Bridge" should be "express service to Victoria" if you are talking about Bromley South. The Bromley to London Bridge would only come into things if it utilised the Grove Park to Bromley North branch. Going onward from Bromley North to Bromley South would probably be impractical due to the difference in elevation between the two stations and the wanderings of the River Ravensbourne causing difficulties with a southern terminus.
The over-run from the Elephant does extend under Walworth Road to Burgess Park at Camberwell Gate and station signs were produced for 'Camberwell'. This may explain the suggestions people have made.
There IS an express bus service from South Croydon to Waterloo, it travels as a normal stopping service to West Norwood and from there it is non stopping to Waterloo. It used to travel via Walworth Road but traffic there is always choc-a-block so it's been re-routed through Brixton, Kennington to Waterloo. I've used jt myself when I worked in the City. It runs during peak time rush hour morning and evening and cuts the journey time quite considerably but if there were a steady reliable service you'd get from a tube link I'm sure it would get used
I don’t think any work will happen on the Bakerloo Line anytime soon. Firstly, as it stands with TFLs finances, the trains won’t be replaced till at least 2035, and the plans to extend the Bakerloo Line down Old Kent Road into Lewisham has been placed on serious hold. I really wish it does go ahead ASAP as it’d be very nice to see Bakerloo Line trans serving areas such as Beckenham Junction. It’ll save all commuters having to use very unreliable Southern services into London. Well by the time that happens, I’ll probably be 6 foot under lol
After the failure of the Lewisham extension, the crayonista in me wondered if a cheaper option might be to connect it to the main line south of Elephant and Castle, where it could head down through Herne Hill and Tulse Hill before taking over the Wimbledon loop. This would provide relief for the Victoria Line (since Loughborough Junction is near Brixton), the Northern Line and some relief for Waterloo mainline services. You could also open a station in Walworth to fill a massive tube/train desert. All of these were identified as rationale for Crossrail 2 which is no-longer happening either... But I guess we will see what the next 20 years brings, your video might need updating once we hit 30 proposals!
I would send an overground extension West Croydon -Sutton- Wimbledon -Tooting-Balham-Clapham Junction-Willesden Junc for a real outer circle service. The Bakerloo Could Split onto the Hayes Line and off that divert to Beckenham Junction
I grew up in south east London (Brockley to be specific) so it was really interesting to hear about all these plans that never came to fruition near where I used to live. In my time there, we just had the trains to begin with, but then got the overground a few years before I moved. Going on the tube to me was always a sign of being far away from home. I remember once I had to get my oyster card updated or something and they said 'just go to the nearest tube station', which was at least 40 minutes away using a train and a bus (both of which I needed my oyster for!)
The Greenwich line runs past the back garden of my old family home. As children, we used to listen out for the 'train with the funny windows' because it had a distinctive sound and dash down the garden to see it. I have had the joy of travelling on the GoTrain in Toronto and it was wonderful.
I suspect any move to Lewisham from the Old Kent would have likely have utilised the abandoned Bricklayer's Arms branch which was still fairly intact in the 80's, there was a chord that ran from BA to New Cross Gate as well as the ELL which could have been widened for more lines to allow a second tube line to run into New Cross then onwards to Lewisham. We do forget too St Johns, I remember it when it had 4 working platforms and shifting BR traffic over to the right hand tracks would not have been a problem save the Hastings and Dover expresses would have snarled up with the extra passenger traffic. I seem to remember the Lewisham overunderground thingy would have seen the tube line terminate in a station under the current rail doings as it would have been next to impossible to have over the top terminating trains at Lewisham itself.
My favourite Bakerloo Line extension proposal was in a consultation response, where the writer suggested running it to Burgess Hill. I hope it was a typo and they actually meant Burgess Park, because otherwise that would involve combining several fringe schemes to end up with a route taking over the surface railway to Elmer's End, the Tramlink line to Selsdon, the branch line to East Grinstead, the Bluebell Railway to Horsted Keynes and then the Ardingly spur to Haywards Heath.
The short near the end of the video standing on Lewisham station gazing towards London in the rain brought back memories, even if some of the gentrified flats weren't there back then.
@@eattherich9215 we moved to Bexleyheath in '76 and occasionally caught the 89 bus to Lewisham to visit some of the department stores. It seems that gentrification is making it's way through the outskirts of London. My Godparents lived in Peckham and it was a 60's hellscape at the time.
I’m still very doubtful that the Bakerloo Line will ever get extended beyond it’s current terminus points because if there have been several proposals to do so which all failed miserably before, then I wouldn’t hold my breath for it going to Lewisham even though it’s the only way to make the line better
Hi Jago - I always think that TFL missed an easy opportunity to extend the East London Line beyond New Cross to Blackheath via Lewisham on lines shared with South East Trains. There was an old, unused, terminating platform at Blackheath which would have done nicely.
I think this was in the 1970s. Not sure if it was for the Bakerloo line or the then intended Fleet (now Jubilee) line. However I think an interesting point is that there was a stand-off between British Rail and London Transport. BR welcomed the idea in principle, because it would provide relief for the then heavily overcrowded route between Charing Cross / Cannon St. and Lewisham. However they wanted it to go to Hayes, as this was then the least used route and would therefore minimise their revenue loss. LT, following the same logic, wanted to take the Bexleyheath line as this was the busiest route and would therefore maximise their income. An absurd dispute really when both BR and LT were in public ownership so the overall profits / losses would finish up in the same place.
Jago, for a time there were double decker trains on the Brighton Line used between 1949 and 1971. Even though I was a occasional passenger on this line pre 1971 (later a commuter to the city on it), I never came across one of these 4DD EMU's.
Excellent video as always. My one nitpick - you omitted the 1897 proposal by the New Cross and Waterloo Railway (NC&WR) to extend the Bakerloo down the Old Kent Road. I believe this was the original extension intension - the original overrun tunnels beyond E&C were aligned towards the Old Kent Road as can be seen on Carto Metro. The route would have followed the Old Kent Road with lots of intermediate stations (too many imo), terminating at the now disused Old Kent Road railway station. Incredible how things could come full circle and that well over 130 years after originally proposed the Old Kent Road could finally get its tube!
The one thing I was hoping for that didn't appear in this video was a gigantic omnibus map of what would be if every one of those schemes - literally all of them - _had_ been made, as if we lived in Bizzaro World.
The only Bakerloo Line extension you didn't mention was the one to Camberwick Green, with stations at Trumpton and Chigley. Of course, it could also have served that other fictional place - Thamesmead.
In the LT musuem, there is an illuminated destination board for the Bakerloo with "Camberwell" on it. It is known amongst the intersection between tube and Withnail nerds as a "Camberwell Indicator" (as in carrot...)
I'm pretty certain the 2010s proposal mentioned Camberwell again and even included it in the earlier consultations. Not to mention that a station at Bricklayers Arms was on the cards for a long while before eventually being dropped.
I remember taking part in a survey, and via Camberwell or via OKR were the options. I forgot the 3rd one, but it was a minor variation of the OKR route.
Taking the Bakerloo down to Tulse Hill seems wild given that exact route (at least now) is served by Thameslink. Always assumed a Victoria line extension that way would have been more likely
I think you meant Bromley North, not Bromley South. The Bromley South line goes to Victoria. Bromley North line goes to Grove Park on the Charing Cross line
I’ve just moved to hither green. Thought that with such a big ol’ station, the train links would be super. As it turns out, they’re pretty poor. Getting to lewisham is straight forward, but it can be an absolute pain going the extra 4mins to hither green, with it sometimes being easier to simply walk!
I live one stop beyond (Lee) and the service is abysmal. It takes longer by train to Lewisham than it does by bus when factoring in the walk to the station plus the 10 minute journey time.
Runnig to Watford Jnct again is not really an extension as the tracks already exist. It's just a matter of running the trains further on the Overground tracks.
Jago, why the Bakerloo train sheds are numbered at Queen's Park that way? Like starting them from 21 to 24 not from 1? Where are the others? (And why?)
Since the various megabucks sprees I've seen conducted by government since 2008, I've stopped believing the "no money" excuse. "No political will" is the correct translation there.
In my opinion they should extend the bakerloo line down to Lewisham and then let it take over the line to Bromley North - because currently it’s a shuttle service between Bromley N and Grove Park, which means that residents would have a through service all the way to central london
I did enjoy your video, thank you. Export locos would be a great topic. You could do a series on them. My favourite being the Beyer-Peacock Garratts. My Dad apprenticed and worked in their massive iron foundry.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
If ever there was a slogan for modern Britain, it’s certainly “it also didn’t happen, but didn’t happen more cost effectively”
Have you been digesting the HS2 biscuits? 🎉 something that Labour also want to continue building when/if they get into power at the next election 😢
"It costs several thousand pounds to install a public toilet block, and half that to remove it. So we've paid nearly ten thousand pounds on having no toilet. I could have given you no toilet for free!"
Stuart Ashen, Sharticles (Paraphrased)
As HS2 has now been quietly scrapped or "put on hold" as the politicians say, I wonder whether that's another "might have been" project like so many others.
Just think how much money Britain could have saved by actually doing things.
"And if it did ever happen, it never happened here" 😉
It will never be done! My parents back in the 1980s were considering buying a house in Hayes (Kent) the estate agent told them the Bakerloo will be there in 5 years 😂
At the expense of a 32 storey tower block in the car park ?
Watch this comment age like milk.
Never trust estate agents.
They weren't wrong, just take another train to Charing Cross and you have it...
@@nathanw9770 I knew south-eastern trains were slow but 5 years to get to a bakerloo interchange point is ridiculous
Ok now we absolutely need a video on Britain's double decker trains
And why aren't there more of them. It seems a sensible idea. Probably not enough room for a top deck on the Victorian built tunnels
They were so tight that the top floor passengers would have had their feet in the bottom floor passengers pockets if there had been a gap!
@@mypointofview1111 Yah, I think he mentioned that in his video about loading gauges. The UK has generally small loading gauges, since they were the first country to build railroad bridges and tunnels and stations on a large scale -- before experience told everyone else that a wider and (especially) taller loading gauge might be better for mainline rail.
(I'll edit this and link it if I can find it.)
@@robertwilloughby8050 Quite right. Lower deck passengers apparently could also smell the feet of upper deck ones! There were fewer doors which slowed exit and entry (though modern sliding door stock has even fewer), and complaints that you could be cornered in the upper compartments by thugs. A bright idea that didn't quite work - like quite a few of Bulleid's.
Hear, hear!
The Bakerloo Line extension is the TfL equivalent of Half Life 3
??
@@ibrahimhossain2776 I believe Half Life 3 is supposedly a game that's been in development for decades, heard about and confirmed many times, but nothing past that
@@ikec-pw5sb Valve realised that there was more money selling other peoples work in a convenient package than spend a fortune making their own games and so Steam was born and the game teams got sent on their way
@@ikec-pw5sb it also funnier that the game developers also keep releasing game that are RELATED to Half Life but NOT Half Life 3
Exactly like this Bakerloo Extension
Never thought of it that way, but it totally fits. At this point though, a Bakerloo Line extenstion is more likely than Half Life 3 (or Portal 3 for that matter).
At this rate, we might see Crossrail 3 sooner than an extension of the Bakerloo
i want thameslink2 more at this point
Or HS2 getting further than Watford...
In fact, geography of London cries to connect Lewisham to Hayes line to Marylebone. Such crossrail line could go via Bond Street (Elizabeth line), Green park, Victoria (Crossrail 2), Waterloo (with exits to Embankment and Westminster), Elephant and Castle (Thameslink) and via Camberwell to Lewisham
@@someoneno-one7672
I think have the thameslink be a fast 30tph service from mitcham junction to millhill via Kingscross , with stops at camberwell and remove city thameslink
Bekenham/ Hayes could just be a bakerloo extension from lewisham, and extend newcross overground to slade green via bexleyheath branch
I really think south east needs an alternative route to london bridge, elizabeth line is fine, but the overground is slow and so is DLR from lewisham/ woolwich
Sladegreen to grays would be so good, and if C2C has a highspeed to kingscross stopping at barking , or heck if they take over the overground past stratford but with less stops (i think stratford international should have more trainlines imo)
If i had a £ for every time the bakerloo line extenison has been proposed, cancelled or delayed, i'd have £26. Which isn't a lot in retrospect, but it's weird that it's happened 26 TIMES?!?!?
You'd have enough for a single fare in Zone 1; just about 😉
Would get you a few pints at The Phoenix in Denmark Hill station. Duh.
I know it's part of the joke, but in what way is £26 "not a lot in retrospect"?
If the cost of producing all 26 proposals & studies was added together it would probably have paid for the line to be built.
But if you took a shot everytime you would have a bloody hard headache!
"...didn't happen more cost effectively..." is the best line for a bureaucrat ever!
Could have been straight out of "Yes, Minister"
Pure Sir Humphrey!
"If you want to create a new urban district you need transport links"
Thamesmead - 'Cries into Beer'
They really need to extend something to Thamesmead. It is poor that the whole area doesn’t have any rail transport. Such a large area and no transport is shocking.
Well they are at least thinking about it, the current front-runner being the DLR.
@@marcelwiszowaty1751 Imagine if both the Overground and DLR extended to meet at Thamesmead. I can only dream
I'd guess a quick cheap fix there would be to build a pier and bung in a ferry service to Barking Riverside.. Yes a better long term fix is needed but you could have a ferry service done and dusted in a year or so for a few million, Which in Govt spending terms is chicken feed.
@@precariousworlds3029 Or this extended Bakerloo could be extended to Barking Riverside.
@@britishguy54dx surely im not the only one who thinks the hammersmith line is now useless, past paddington atleast.
Also circle line should go from farringdon directly to blackfriars imo.
Removing H&C would allow for more metropolitian trains , maybe extend the metropolitian to dartford via liverpool street and new cross
Wonderful deadpan comedy as usual, with plenty of interesting historical tidbits. You are the ray of sunlight in my otherwise dreary Helsinki Sunday.
I think you should Finish there.
Dreary Helsinki! Well if you love London so much come visit here. Or if you want something more exciting and warmer go to Rome or Istanbul. (but definitely don't go to Moscow, I hear it's drearier than 'sinki)
C'mon+ you have the best Ice Hockey in Europe and my favourite team Helsingins Jokerit!
"...didn't happen more cost-effectively." Gold. Strange that none of these plans were carried out, since most of them were on a direct straight line from Elephant & Castle...
If they build the Bakerloo extension in my lifetime I will have doubled my life-expectancy.
Thanks for the humour - I spilt my beer at "..didn't happen more cost effectively" and many thanks for scratching my inner nerd itch.
Was it a pork scratching?
Very nice with a pint !!
Every time I watch a video from Jago I wish someone would do a series like this for the system falling apart in my backyard in the us (bostons mbta)
As someone raised in Camberwell & Lewisham who’s lived all down the old Kent road and currently in traffic on it as I type, this extension makes almost too much sense given the amount of residential construction that is going on and it’s painful that they could build the whole Elizabeth line before even trying this 4 stop expansion
There's something satisfying about seeing Old Kent Road on the brown line.
That will be 60 pounds, please.
Ive lived in Lewisham then Peckham and used to hang around in Camberwell The last 35 years has been soooo bait lol. I really really thought it was going to happen when sainsburys (new x) had a "grassroots org" in their entrance handing out protect the supermarket leaflets. It was all quite exciting! The old toys r us/ lidl site was another place that was ear makerked for a station.
If you look at the number of new developments being thrown up along the old kent road right now. It would seem it is/was definitely in the big plan.
I would love to see it happen before i die!
They didn't stop Starbucks taking over Sainsburys.
This lol! I live close to the old Toys r Us site I thought finally that was going to be site of a potential bakerloo line extension alas I was wrong
Hopefully one day! Till then Queens Road Peckham will have to do
The Bakerloo line did run as far as Watford Junction and I often used it… sets were stabled I think at the sheds on the West Watford Croxley Green spur. Clever that they used the same current rails as the EMUs…..
There must’ve been many hours of research to get details of 26 proposals listed and summarised for us. You must surely have enough data to submit a doctoral thesis on the history of the London railway network. 👍👍 from 🇦🇺.
Jago should send a link to his video to the proposers of the current extension to encourage them a little so that one day we don't hear about a 27th serious study for yet another extension.
I heard the reason bricklayers arms roundabout was so huge was to fit a tube station in the middle (a la Old Street)
Always amazed at the amount of research, and the time that must take, that underscores the narrative in each of your videos. Beautifully shot, researched and told - as always. Thank you
I happened to notice, whilst idly reading 'Modern Railways' for 1962, that there were still some BR(S) double-deckers still in service.
Yep, the 4DD stock lasted until the early 70s. They weren’t very popular.
Although there were only ever two 4 car sets, usually making one 8 car train. Only used on the Dartford lines.
Any day with a new jago hazard upload is a good day let alone about the bakerloo line
I'd love to see all the various plans mapped together.
I chose the wrong video to play the take-a-shot-for-every-shelved-Underground-proposal game.
It's Sunday, it's TH-cam, it's Jago storytime.
❤
Let's dream a little and imagine several projects which would have served the most evocated stations in the different schemes :
- Bakerloo line to Hayes via Lewisham
- Victoria line to Crystal Palace via Dulwich and Sydenham Hill
- W&C line to Bromley South via Camberwell, Peckham Rye, Honor Oak, Catford, Grove Park and the bit between Grove Park and Bromley North
I'm immediately organizing a bake sale to get funds for these projects.
Mornington Crescent !
It's been some time since I've been to Camberwell Green but I remember there being an information board which seemed excited by the fact they had a Ginkgo tree, I wonder if the person in Southwark council who commissioned it would have been so excited had they known about a half of the roadside trees in Sutton are Maidenhair trees, which is English for Ginkgo tree
Wait until he puts up a notice about the impending Christmas tree !!
Nice shot of Hayes Station at the end, brought back memories of my time as a Signalman there back in the very early 1970's
For decades now, the received wisdom I heard was that the ground south-east of E&C was such that tunnelling through that ground was extremely dodgy and very likely to cause issues to the buildings above.
It is almost believable, but the truth is surely that South London is not civilised enough for a fuller tube system 😊
You could imagine they'd be better at dealing with that today than 100 years ago.
@@dambrooks7578 We need one to move around London faster!
@@dambrooks7578 Honestly, I'm skeptical we event want Tube line extensions in South London.
Tube stations are to South London housing affordability as the Spanish Inquisition was to Native American populations - we'd quite rather avoid being "civilised", thank you!
It is true (gravelly rather than clay), but it just increases the cost, it's not a complete showstopper. They did get the Northern and Victoria lines built in this general area.
I recently thought that you don't talk about the Bakerloo often, and here you are, greatest telepath of Britain on your way to change that.
Fantastic and so informative
Camberwell bus garage on Camberwell New rd used to have a tube station style sign on the front, complete with flag pole.
If I recall correctly, there were also plans to re-extend the Bakerloo Line north of Harrow and Wealdstone up to Watford Junction. However, I think these are now on "indefinite hiatus" as well. I feel that the bakerloo line is quite forgotten about and underdeveloped compared to other lines - especially with the age of the trains and lack of extensions
I don't know the area that well, but isn't it just a question of not stopping at Harrow & Wealdstone? The Watford DC lines continue to Watford Junction, and, as far as I know, the same tracks are used both by the Bakerloo and the Overground from Euston.
@@Tevildo That's right. The Bakerloo ran right through to Watford Junction for about 50 years. Although resignalling sometimes affects the feasibility for mixed operation. This has been a big factor in the Croxley Link which on paper looks a very obvious way of linking the Metropolitan line through to Watford and maybe on to St Albans Abbey.
@@Tevildo In the 1970s the Tube map used to show the Bakerloo reaching to Watford Junction. Some time later, the section between Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction had its' appearance changed and was commented something like ""peak times only, full service on British Rail". Later still, that section was removed completely from the map.
@@iankemp1131 isn't tube trains use NR signaling systems from Queen's Park to H&W? I mean 72 stock got a NR Class name, and I've seen some similar to NR looking equipment in the cab in other videos, so it might make sense.
@@Psevdonim123 That's absolutely correct. Obviously when the Bakerloo ran right through to Watford Junction the signalling was compatible, but those were the days before TPWS etc. So I don't know if it can be used beyond H&W nowadays. The Croxley Link would use a separate line out of Watford Junction. You'd think that if it can be solved in one situation it could be for the other as well, but apparently it's a difficulty that would increase the cost by tens or hundreds of millions of pounds according to the report. That would feed on to the Met rather then the Bakerloo so the stock is different. Mind you, apparently simple changes of any sort seem to cost ten times as much when Network Rail are responsible, which is why it's so hard even to introduce a passenger service along an existing freight line. The days in the 1980s when you could just introduce an experimental dmu service from Oxford to Bicester (which worked) and Derby to Sinfin (which didn't) seem to be long gone.
Camberwell residents must feel unloved, when you consider that the Central Line was extended all the way out to Ongar in Essex 😁
It might be worth reminding people when you were half way through that the every 2min train turnaround was because the Elephant was a single terminal point of a line that bifurcated at Baker Street, with one branch running on the added Met Lines to Stanmore, and the other taking the more original Bakerloo Extensions then onward and up on the LNWR to Watford. The split to the Jubilee was effectively "an extension"- of sorts, where the Stanmore service was relived to Charing Cross via the Bond Street new tunnels , thus allowing a bit of extra min or two of breathing space at Elephant.
Ahhh........ I remember those double decker trains. Thanks for slipping that in a tale about the Bakerloo.
I wonder how many other relatively short rail schemes there are being mused. The sort that connect apparently unrelated lines in an attempt to spread the load and offer alternative routes.
There's an episode of the Sweeney, with Brian Blessed playing a well spoken "geezer" you get to see a quite interesting chase scene around Peckham Rye with a dirty 4SUB pulling out the platform as Carter chases the naughty young lad down the trackside.
Moonlighting from Z-Cars !?
@@PMA65537 Fancy that!...
Eat your heart out French connection.
At this juncture I feel it necessary to point out that the French connection is a movie and not a proposed extension of the Bakerloo line !!
Jago you spoilt me again with another trip down memory lane..to Peckham rye. One day I will have to pay my old stomping ground a visit
It seems it is easier to come up with reasons not to do it than have the vision to make it happen.I'm sure the economic boost would pay for any extension.
my 27th attempt is to send it above ground to Camberwell, than back under to Brixton and through run it with the Victoria Line, thus making one long tube line with a big loop in it.
If it’s going to happen before 2060 it needs to start happening soon! Replacement of the 72TS must surely happen relatively soon (being the oldest rolling stock in regular passenger use in the UK, so that’s the time to increase the fleet size!
72TS replacement is not happening until late 2030/early 2040, according to TfL themselves.
@@LondonEmergency999 In which case, it may well be potentially worth their while investigating the possibility of another thorough refurbishment of the stock; along with replacing the traction equipment with something more modern and less high maintenence.
One mustn't underestimate the unrealised cost savings that an unrealised express bus service has over an unrealised tube line. Not only is it less expensive to unrealistically run, it's also unrealistically more flexible, and you won't have to realise an unrealised replacement bus service in case your unrealised tube service suffers an interruption.
Footage is just as good whether it is raining or sunny, because it reflects everyone's experiences of being at these stations.
Hmmm don't seem to remember Bromley South trains going to London Bridge back in the day, Holborn Viaduct or Victoria, Bromley North was your man for London Bridge and Bromley council were all up for closing that branch for the juicy property building lands it sat upon. Did you know David Bowie grew up alongside Sundridge Park station? Was a hero to us Sundridge Park folks :)
Somewhere amongst my old 1960s Ian Allen Trains Illustrated’s I have a magazine with the Lewisham Bakerloo rail extension idea. Thanks Jago great stuff.
BUT NOT FOR LONG! Thrilled to realise that Jago is a Horrible Histories aficionado 😊
A mid day treat from Jago
Now that we've already got to plan z, what do we do next? Plan alpha?
If a Moggy could drive a car, would that Cat drive a Ford? (Catford) LOL😁 I think I'm *pussin'* my luck with this pun!
One obstacle to tunnelling south of the Thames in the early 20th Century was the alluvial loose soil in that area; made tunnelling more expensive. Hence trams dominated in South London to places like New Cross, Old Kent Road, Dulwich, Camberwell Green, etc. Elephant and Castle was a major tram junction.
At 9.00 "express service to London Bridge" should be "express service to Victoria" if you are talking about Bromley South. The Bromley to London Bridge would only come into things if it utilised the Grove Park to Bromley North branch. Going onward from Bromley North to Bromley South would probably be impractical due to the difference in elevation between the two stations and the wanderings of the River Ravensbourne causing difficulties with a southern terminus.
That’s interesting, always wondered why Bromley North Station sited under a mile from Bromley South and not connected.
@@jeanjacques9980 Also built originally by two different railways (SER and LCDR) and the town grew up between them.
@@iankemp1131 Thank you for the explanation, age old problem and yes I recall now that Bromley Town Centre is on a downward slope.
The over-run from the Elephant does extend under Walworth Road to Burgess Park at Camberwell Gate and station signs were produced for 'Camberwell'. This may explain the suggestions people have made.
Goodness me! Jago talking about his tube extension has given me a funny turn!😳
There IS an express bus service from South Croydon to Waterloo, it travels as a normal stopping service to West Norwood and from there it is non stopping to Waterloo. It used to travel via Walworth Road but traffic there is always choc-a-block so it's been re-routed through Brixton, Kennington to Waterloo. I've used jt myself when I worked in the City. It runs during peak time rush hour morning and evening and cuts the journey time quite considerably but if there were a steady reliable service you'd get from a tube link I'm sure it would get used
I don’t think any work will happen on the Bakerloo Line anytime soon. Firstly, as it stands with TFLs finances, the trains won’t be replaced till at least 2035, and the plans to extend the Bakerloo Line down Old Kent Road into Lewisham has been placed on serious hold. I really wish it does go ahead ASAP as it’d be very nice to see Bakerloo Line trans serving areas such as Beckenham Junction. It’ll save all commuters having to use very unreliable Southern services into London. Well by the time that happens, I’ll probably be 6 foot under lol
Bromley South and Orpington are pretty close to me, so part of me is silently wishing for an extension in the future 😅
Though I have a feeling that Jago really meant Bromley North ...
@@iankemp1131 Either the tunnel would have a steep gradient approaching Bromley North or a very long escalator to platform level.
Whenever I see Camberwell Green I always wonder if they’ll extend to Chigley & Trumpton.
Hang on... double decker trains? In Britain? Now there's something else I'd like to know more about. Great video as always
4DD stock.
After the failure of the Lewisham extension, the crayonista in me wondered if a cheaper option might be to connect it to the main line south of Elephant and Castle, where it could head down through Herne Hill and Tulse Hill before taking over the Wimbledon loop. This would provide relief for the Victoria Line (since Loughborough Junction is near Brixton), the Northern Line and some relief for Waterloo mainline services. You could also open a station in Walworth to fill a massive tube/train desert. All of these were identified as rationale for Crossrail 2 which is no-longer happening either...
But I guess we will see what the next 20 years brings, your video might need updating once we hit 30 proposals!
I would send an overground extension West Croydon -Sutton- Wimbledon -Tooting-Balham-Clapham Junction-Willesden Junc for a real outer circle service. The Bakerloo Could Split onto the Hayes Line and off that divert to Beckenham Junction
I grew up in south east London (Brockley to be specific) so it was really interesting to hear about all these plans that never came to fruition near where I used to live. In my time there, we just had the trains to begin with, but then got the overground a few years before I moved. Going on the tube to me was always a sign of being far away from home. I remember once I had to get my oyster card updated or something and they said 'just go to the nearest tube station', which was at least 40 minutes away using a train and a bus (both of which I needed my oyster for!)
My late father rode the "double decked" trains from Bexleyheath to London Bridge. He said they were the only times he'd ever felt claustrophobic.
The Greenwich line runs past the back garden of my old family home. As children, we used to listen out for the 'train with the funny windows' because it had a distinctive sound and dash down the garden to see it. I have had the joy of travelling on the GoTrain in Toronto and it was wonderful.
I suspect any move to Lewisham from the Old Kent would have likely have utilised the abandoned Bricklayer's Arms branch which was still fairly intact in the 80's, there was a chord that ran from BA to New Cross Gate as well as the ELL which could have been widened for more lines to allow a second tube line to run into New Cross then onwards to Lewisham. We do forget too St Johns, I remember it when it had 4 working platforms and shifting BR traffic over to the right hand tracks would not have been a problem save the Hastings and Dover expresses would have snarled up with the extra passenger traffic. I seem to remember the Lewisham overunderground thingy would have seen the tube line terminate in a station under the current rail doings as it would have been next to impossible to have over the top terminating trains at Lewisham itself.
My favourite Bakerloo Line extension proposal was in a consultation response, where the writer suggested running it to Burgess Hill. I hope it was a typo and they actually meant Burgess Park, because otherwise that would involve combining several fringe schemes to end up with a route taking over the surface railway to Elmer's End, the Tramlink line to Selsdon, the branch line to East Grinstead, the Bluebell Railway to Horsted Keynes and then the Ardingly spur to Haywards Heath.
if this had just been built in 1913 it would have paid for itself many many times over by now lol.
The short near the end of the video standing on Lewisham station gazing towards London in the rain brought back memories, even if some of the gentrified flats weren't there back then.
Ugh, Lewisham town centre now is HORRIBLE. I have lived in the area since the 1980s' and have watched its DESTRUCTION.
@@eattherich9215 we moved to Bexleyheath in '76 and occasionally caught the 89 bus to Lewisham to visit some of the department stores. It seems that gentrification is making it's way through the outskirts of London. My Godparents lived in Peckham and it was a 60's hellscape at the time.
@@jarthurs: it's not even gentrification but a cookie cutter design, computer render made real.
I’m still very doubtful that the Bakerloo Line will ever get extended beyond it’s current terminus points because if there have been several proposals to do so which all failed miserably before, then I wouldn’t hold my breath for it going to Lewisham even though it’s the only way to make the line better
Its, not it’s.
@@hanstheexplorerwho cares
@@hanstheexplorer can tell that you didn't get invited to many parties growing up mate
It will! Will TFL please be serious and let me have a nice tube station?!
@@hanstheexplorer The possessive form of "it" is correctly written as its'
Hi Jago - I always think that TFL missed an easy opportunity to extend the East London Line beyond New Cross to Blackheath via Lewisham on lines shared with South East Trains. There was an old, unused, terminating platform at Blackheath which would have done nicely.
Ikr
There was once a plan for the Bakerloo to take over the Bexleyheath line to Dartford. This would have seen trains running from Watford to Dartford!
I think this was in the 1970s. Not sure if it was for the Bakerloo line or the then intended Fleet (now Jubilee) line. However I think an interesting point is that there was a stand-off between British Rail and London Transport. BR welcomed the idea in principle, because it would provide relief for the then heavily overcrowded route between Charing Cross / Cannon St. and Lewisham. However they wanted it to go to Hayes, as this was then the least used route and would therefore minimise their revenue loss. LT, following the same logic, wanted to take the Bexleyheath line as this was the busiest route and would therefore maximise their income. An absurd dispute really when both BR and LT were in public ownership so the overall profits / losses would finish up in the same place.
Jago, for a time there were double decker trains on the Brighton Line used between 1949 and 1971. Even though I was a occasional passenger on this line pre 1971 (later a commuter to the city on it), I never came across one of these 4DD EMU's.
I don’t think they were ever used on the Brighton line, they were mainly confined to high-density SE London commuter services.
@@AtheistOrphan Yes, they only ever worked on the London to Dartford route. (Unless there was an occasional railfan special elsewhere).
Excellent video as always. My one nitpick - you omitted the 1897 proposal by the New Cross and Waterloo Railway (NC&WR) to extend the Bakerloo down the Old Kent Road. I believe this was the original extension intension - the original overrun tunnels beyond E&C were aligned towards the Old Kent Road as can be seen on Carto Metro. The route would have followed the Old Kent Road with lots of intermediate stations (too many imo), terminating at the now disused Old Kent Road railway station. Incredible how things could come full circle and that well over 130 years after originally proposed the Old Kent Road could finally get its tube!
Come up with it, promise it, cancel it.
Surely Camberwell must be in the running for the Underground's most-unbuilt (or least-built?) station...
We will eventually get that extension. Some day. To somewhere.
Probably in 80 years time!
Jago, the tunnels south of E&C _do_ go further south than the sidings, but they flooded, and those extended tunnels were capped off as a result.
The one thing I was hoping for that didn't appear in this video was a gigantic omnibus map of what would be if every one of those schemes - literally all of them - _had_ been made, as if we lived in Bizzaro World.
The only Bakerloo Line extension you didn't mention was the one to Camberwick Green, with stations at Trumpton and Chigley.
Of course, it could also have served that other fictional place - Thamesmead.
The year 2200, and humans can now teleport to the Moon....but the Bakerloo line still hasn't been extended...
Great bit of research Jago. 👍
Seeing you at my 'home' station shouldn't be so incongruous but it still feels weird
Hooray! The "Linear Cartography" is back! Eat your heart out Google Earth!
I think the arguments of where any extension should go will eventually result in the idea being scrapped altogether
The best plan would be to ensure that the MP for Lewisham / Blackheath / Catford / wherever is appointed as Secretary of State for Transport.
In the LT musuem, there is an illuminated destination board for the Bakerloo with "Camberwell" on it. It is known amongst the intersection between tube and Withnail nerds as a "Camberwell Indicator" (as in carrot...)
I'm pretty certain the 2010s proposal mentioned Camberwell again and even included it in the earlier consultations. Not to mention that a station at Bricklayers Arms was on the cards for a long while before eventually being dropped.
I remember taking part in a survey, and via Camberwell or via OKR were the options. I forgot the 3rd one, but it was a minor variation of the OKR route.
Now we need this for every line !
Extending every line to Lewisham seems a bit excessive.
Taking the Bakerloo down to Tulse Hill seems wild given that exact route (at least now) is served by Thameslink. Always assumed a Victoria line extension that way would have been more likely
as a resident of Beckenham, can i just say OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JUST BUILD THE SODDING THING ALREADY! 😁
Not in my lifetime but all those on hold plans are keeping the moth ball producers in business.
Tell me more about those double decker trains to Dartford.
Once they figure out what a straight line is they may have something .
I think you meant Bromley North, not Bromley South.
The Bromley South line goes to Victoria. Bromley North line goes to Grove Park on the Charing Cross line
I’ve just moved to hither green. Thought that with such a big ol’ station, the train links would be super. As it turns out, they’re pretty poor. Getting to lewisham is straight forward, but it can be an absolute pain going the extra 4mins to hither green, with it sometimes being easier to simply walk!
I live one stop beyond (Lee) and the service is abysmal. It takes longer by train to Lewisham than it does by bus when factoring in the walk to the station plus the 10 minute journey time.
Nice informative about about the Bakerloo Line attempts to extend the Bakerloo Line. Hope it get extended one day....
Don’t worry. It will.
There’s also that planned extension at the other end to Watford Junction via the overground that was either shelved or scrapped.
When I was a nipper, the Bakerloo did run all the way to Watford Junction; the section from Harrow and Wealdstone onwards was scrapped.
Runnig to Watford Jnct again is not really an extension as the tracks already exist. It's just a matter of running the trains further on the Overground tracks.
@@rayfisher3921 even does go over existing track it’s still an extension in my eyes.
Jago, why the Bakerloo train sheds are numbered at Queen's Park that way? Like starting them from 21 to 24 not from 1? Where are the others? (And why?)
Since the various megabucks sprees I've seen conducted by government since 2008, I've stopped believing the "no money" excuse. "No political will" is the correct translation there.
"No political will" means "somebody in a higher branch has a vanity project".
Good old Jago - future-proofing his videos with "you may remember that pandemic that ruined the early 2020s..." as if it wasn't just three years ago!
It feels a lot longer to me already. 😄
In my opinion they should extend the bakerloo line down to Lewisham and then let it take over the line to Bromley North - because currently it’s a shuttle service between Bromley N and Grove Park, which means that residents would have a through service all the way to central london
I did enjoy your video, thank you. Export locos would be a great topic. You could do a series on them. My favourite being the Beyer-Peacock Garratts. My Dad apprenticed and worked in their massive iron foundry.
For one glorious moment I thought we were going to reach new heights, with a map having only _one_ station on it.