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PIN UP Vs. PIN DOWN | BOWLING BALL LAYOUT COMPARISON - TruBall Reviews
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ธ.ค. 2020
- A common topic amongst bowlers is does it matter if a ball is pin up or pin down? Today we take a look at that and only change the second angle of the layout to make the ball pin down. This allows for the test to be only about pin placement as both balls have the same pin distance from the Positive Axis Point. We put these two balls to the test. We verified that the shots were thrown the same using Specto at the CtD Education Center.
Check out more information and join our Staff on ctdbowling.com
2 balls with the exact same surface and different layouts thrown at the exact spot with repetition in ball speed and rev rate will look very similar. Pin up VS Pin down takes in effect when a bowler throws an errant shot, and how the ball responds as it creates a wider or smaller pocket, and how the ball responds to oily and or dry boards on "missed shots". Since the "average consumer" is less likely to repeat their shot, the amount of flare will absolutely matter in striking, leaving a makeable spare, or leaving a split.
the breakpoint being 1 foot sooner or later makes a ton of difference on some patterns
Second ball went through the pins much better, IMO.
I don't know about that. I think the difference was due to the slight difference in the entry angle not the ball driving through the pins, if you look at the graph comparing both of them, they both deflected to the right, neither actually drove through the deck.
Interesting video but I wish your sample size was larger. There was only one shot with each ball. Would have liked to see multiple rolls with each ball, and then figure out the mean/median values as well as the standard deviation to see how consistent the ball is being released.
One of the best visual explanations I've seen of pin up/down layout.
Thanks for watching
So pin up's breakpoint was earlier but less total hook, pin down's breakpoint went a bit farther but had more total hook. I think it makes sense now why all my bowling balls have it pin down.
Like to see that test where the balls are rolled in different parts of the lane
Great video thank you. The most important thing I took from watching was the fact that the pin up ball went too long, didn't read the lane early enough, and hit light leaving the swishing corner 7. The pin down ball read the lane earlier, finished better and struck. So IMO, there is a big difference when you look at carry and why.
Ron I have all my balls pin up. Basically only thing I have different is surface covers stock and core (a sym, sym) abd I normally just put ny older equipment at higher grit surface and just keep buying newer aggressive balls. Keeps it simple enough for me
Great advice. Getting those five shots in during practice is difficult most of the time though.
I’d love to see a video on how hand position at release affects how you should drill a ball. Sometimes my wrist is straight and I’m more behind the ball and sometimes I’m under the ball wrist more cupped. How does this change affect roll, carry, how ball should be drilled for each? I’m curious to hear😊
I generally prefer pin down layouts. Pin up for me is used when the lane gets dryer or sometimes as my starting ball on fresh oil
I keep seeing conflicting information with pin up vs pin down. Some say pin up will react sooner and is better for more oil and some say the complete opposite. Too confusing
Data shows pin down break point foot further, and entry angle barely more...and it did seem to go through the pins better....barely. But consider that he has pretty good speed. For a slower speed bowler perhaps there would be a bigger difference. I think we can say that for high speed high rev players the difference is very minor.
I think the difference is on lane condition / pattern. If the pattern is a ft shorter or higher than your preferred condition than having it another ball drilled pin down/up is going to help you carry that ten pen with a better entry angle and you dont have to change where you stand, aim, hand position etc.
Saw the pin up read the lane quicker than the pin down. Not much difference but there is a difference. 1 board doesn’t seem like a lot but when you bowl in tournaments where there’s very little room for error, that’s a lot. Basic house shot, doesn’t really matter.
There is definitely a difference for me in pin down vs pin up layouts and I would say my revs and speed are pretty close in matching up.
Solid scientific info here. Thanks.
I think the real key or take away is neither ball got into the roll phase. Both balls deflected right instead of driving through the pins because of it BUT the pin down kicked that ten pin out. Either way no roll, means balls back in the bag for me.
What about speed dominant vs balanced vs rev dominant with these layouts?
The ctd polish in the background is the real star
When the lanes start to dry out and the pattern breaks down is when pin up pin down really makes a difference
THIS
Awesome video, thank you so much! This is just the information I've been looking for
Looks like to me, the pin down carried better. Love my pin down layouts!
I thing I noticed looking at the graph is that neither drove through the deck. Both balls deflected to the right.
Great topic! Good to know pin up or down is not as important as pin to PAP. I do have the same ball drilled with a high pin and a low pin, and will use them through transition when 10 back vs a ringing 7 is worth a few bucks, but never seen much difference between them in normal league play. Always thought I wasn't paying attention during league 🙄
Can we see different drillings of pin up and pin down. Also are leverage drillings able to be done with the no extra hole rules? Ie axis leverage or rev leverage?
went a little crazy with that thumb bevel!!!!
Oval
It would be fun to see the pin up ball with deeper fingerholes. That would probably take some more core out of the ball. Will it roll as a pin down?
THANK YOU for posting this.
I’ve drilled balls for a long time and I’m tired of people passing off misconception and conjecture as fact. Especially when it comes to pin up vs pin down. I’ve told people from the get that for the same pin distance with most balls the difference will be a weakening of the effect of the core making the ball flare LESS and break LATER with less over all hook.
The amount of people that think pin down balls hook earlier and more is astounding.
Exactly Joe, great post.
The motion through the pins is paramount. Earl Anthony used to call the motion of the axis downward as it approached and entered the pocket 'mid-roll'. In this instance the pin down shot had better mid roll energy. In a different lane condition or different type of player an identical shot may have shown the pin up with better axis motion through the pins.
This was a great video and you are dead on in your point.
The space between the flare lines shows how many degrees the ball has rotated through each revolution. Basically the bigger the spaces the more distance the ball covers laterally every time it makes one revolution.
When you clip the hole with your pin down.That's when it makes tha difference. You get more Midlane
I have a question. I have the pin up on my new Wolverine ball but the pin is straight up in the middle.
What will it do to the ball if the pro shop drill it that way. Does it make any difference.
It looked like the pin down had a little more energy and had a little more "left to right" hook. The pin up was a little earlier and had more front to back hook (it's a little stronger) hence the corner pin still standing. I could be wrong but I have the Tank Blitz one pin up and one pin down and the web Pearl the same. On shorter conditions it's hard to keep it in the 1-3 because it stores so much energy, my pin ups kill short patterns though 🤔
Yea but is this for just a righty thrower or lefty thrower also. For pin up or pin down at that measurement?
Hi there then what does ring finger drilled into the pin do as a two hander?
I'm a 2 finger 2 hand on my strike ball n 2 finger one hander on my spare ball so...pin up or down on which one???
surface is #1 and RG and differential are #2, combined equal about 90%+ of the reaction of a ball.
What happens if you put the pin between the ring finger and the bridge of the ball
I usually go pin up, kinda like how he had his and I like the looks of it. I went pin down on one ball, the phaze 2 and honestly I hate it. I can't predict it and sometimes it just slides too far past breaking points and never recovers to hook
yea i changed my phase two from the standard layout to a lil more aggressive layout right above my ring finger and if cuff my wrist it can really take off when it hits the dry I love it. But I usually don't cuff unless Im inside since Im a lefty I usually bowl down and in similar to francis lavoie.
Pin up will read earlier and pin down later, so that mystery is solved.
Can you show me by looking at the cover stock on a ball if is asymmetrical or symmetrical
I love specto. But im curious what the rev rate is at the pins between the two. Which ball revs up more at the pins? My best educated guess is the pin down layout.
Nah, it's negligible.
Reading the comments and everybody is missing the point. He says there is a slight difference. His point is everything else being equal VAL angle (pin up vs pin down) doesn't change ball reaction very much. Pin distance to positive axis point changing the amount of flare will change how the ball reacts more. Surface on the bowling ball is the most important factor a bowler can control.
The users may not notice the difference visually, but the pins might. As it struck in your video
Would say an avg consumer throws the ball slower? Say 16.5-17.5 mph? Think you may see more of a comparison at a slower speed.
Pin up ball looked like it reved easier through the front part, but was less continuous, seemingly. I thought the difference would be the pin up had more angle. I remember pin up leverage being called flip leverage in the 90's.
I just read that lower VAL angle should lower the RG and raise the differential slightly.
Would there be more difference with an asymmetric ?
We need this app at more bowling alleys
try doing these tests with a lower rev rate and you'll see a difference. I have both pin up and down balls and I can see a difference with them, the pin up tends to be a better down and in shot whereas the pin down tends to be a better arcing shot. You'll have a little more credibility if you use different rev rates.
what weight block generates the most spin?
Would have been great to have the CG in the same position ( static weights the same) after drilling. That way it would truly only be one variable. And / or do the test again with the pin to pap and drill angle the same and have one ball with a 1 inch pin and the other with a 5 inch pin, and see if there is a difference in shape.
The static weight test has been done a lot of times. You can Google Brunswick CG Study as an example. There wasn't a good reason to redo that test. We do have more testing that shows more Bowling balls layed out differently.
@@Ctdbowling I get it... I've seen it.. thanks for the content.
The difference was about a board for hook...the difference between a corner pin or strike. You blew through the statistics pretty fast and that is what matters...where it starts to hook, how much hook and angle of entry would seem to matter. Also, they did not appear to exit the pin deck the same...a difference in continuation?
The total hook was less than a board different. The exit point is also extremely similar, and all the data can easily be paused for a in depth review. We have multiple videos of this and even a simulation that shows the same thing. Feel free to do some checking on this page and look for other sources of information on this topic. We welcome the opportunity to teach people using data and science.
Similar pocket hits produce different results. The difference between a ringing ten or seven and a strike is small. Not saying that they are not similar, just one left a seven and the other was a.strike. very similar.
@@harveywarne9030 ô
You disproved your own test. One struck! The other didn't. Pin down balls come into play on difficult conditions. You can see the disparity very clearly then.
That how they promote the selling of bowling balls. Actually the fact is : who's hand is it behind the bowling ball. Different lay out, different weight block, different core , different oil patterns, or may be different color or names, all this make it more complicated. I got at least 8 bowling balls in my truck. 10 more in my basement. Just for fun , Man, as long as you are going to make a living and they are.
Great video!
Does pin up vs pin down make a similar lack of difference if ball is symmetrical or asymmetrical?
It doesn't and we have more videos coming
@@Ctdbowling thanks for the reply, I really enjoy and appreciate the content y’all make.
@@bobbyray290 it more depends on how you play the oil patterns. Try a few shots inside and a few outside using the same release. Those shots will give you an idea of optimal entry angle for higher scores.
The difference was way more visible on the shots.
The pin up obviously used too much energy throughout the lane to leave the weak 7
The pin up ball would probably be better served a touch slower from a few boards deeper
In 10 pin,can we do a free play after the game,no scoring,just for having fun like we can do tricks?
Awesome video. So is it safe to say pin up/down is a personal preference instead of a pure performance placement? I was always told it would determine how soon a ball would hook vs giving the ball more length
I don't think it's safe to draw any conclusions from this video. Sample size is just too small.
I couldn't find the website in the do down
How about during transition?
does the oiling pattern (sports vs THS) affect pin up vs pin down ball reaction?
Very much so
Yup.
Very much so depending on how much oil is on the lane and how far down the lane is oiled . Keep in mind urtheane balls will carry oil down the lane drying up the heads/ front part of the lane also
Um...where did you say your ctd performance center was located?PLEASE AND THANK YOU!!!
www.ctdeducationcenter.com/
Insightful video. Would like to see the same for short pins too
We have more videos coming. Consider joining our free staff for the latest information and early access to videos. ctdbowling.com/pages/staff-inquiries
So does that mean on a symmetrical ball, the pin to pap is the ONLY thing that matters?
just spend 1000 dollars over a couple of years trying everything out. thats all i can ever gather from all of these vids. you have to spend money because everyone's release and ball preference is different.
what do the three number represent __x__x__ ?
Hello, I have a question. I am a lefty bowler, that has high rev and ball speed. What kinda of layout would you suggest? I do both leagues and tournaments. Thank you.
That's a great question for our staff group. Feel free to join at ctdbowling.com
Might be a small difference but that small difference was a 9 count vs a strike.
😂😂😂
I always thought pin down made the ball roll up earlier.
Ball surface will Always dictate ball roll. Pin up or down is secondary
Does the difference in these layouts apply to bowlers who are unable to bowl faster than 10 mph? Lots of these videos show these high ball speeds, but there are some of us who due to disability (in my case, a wheelchair) average far lower than our standing/walking counterparts due to the inability to generate these speeds. Please consider doing a video using a slower ball speed.
The slower the ball speed the more difference you will see.
I bowl 12-13 mph and pin down is much better it gives the ball more time down lane before reacting. higher speed bowlers I’m sure prefer pin up
I mean exact same throw but they finished through the pins different
Let's keep it real if your goin to have ball layout that close you need to change the surface so your not playing in the same part of the lane.change the surface and make them 3 too 5 broads different....
So pin down reads earlier and pin up goes little bit longer before it hooks
There is so many people that thinks it's the opposite
Ive been saying this for years. Guys worried about pin up vs pin down have trouble hitting their target twice in a row. Don’t waste energy on something a large majority of Bowlers won’t be able to see.
Yep. I always laugh when I see a guy tug a shot and immediately make a ball change bc obviously it wasn't user error....
My track goes over the thumb and between the 2 fingers 🤷♂️🤣
Yikes.
Then you are likely a full roller buddy, and your ball not being drilled for your release pulls the track over the holes. your pso should be putting your pins down next to your thumb and 3 3/8” from the center of your track but most pso’s are morons so good luck there
Your not gonna have two balls perfectly different like that tho, a pin up and a pin down is often a vital combo in a bag, i run it and makes all the difference
why so much reverse on the fingers? Zero would work better unless the bowler is not flexible.
What is the best way to find a legitimate coach in my area? Would like to get a couple lessons in and tighten up my release a bit,
Bowl.com has a coach finder, but I'd just call your local proshop.
No one ever shows a shot being thrown between the first and second arrow, I guess I’m the only human left bowling that way averaging 230. Lol
Glad I’m not the only one!! If it ain’t broke why “fix it?”
Pin up?? Pin down??? So let me buy a $200 bowl to get an extra board of hook. How bout trying a thing called “adjustment”. Lol
I seen him crossing the foul line already on your first try 1:04
I tend to carry my 7 pin better with pin down. I'm L.H
Even though Specto's numbers are practically the same, the pin down ball was able to slow down and get through the pins properly. The pin up ball was at least a foot late.
Great video. Important basic information for all bowlers to know. Knowledge is the key! #CTDbowling. #TeamCTD
Theres a big difference...the way the ball reads the lane...duhhhhh
Don't do this test on 1 pattern and call it sold....do it on a shorter house pattern and I can guarantee you will see a huge difference. Also, do some different lines, don't just follow the rule of 31 because not everyone uses it.
Lol look at the channel. We have a bunch of videos on this topic.
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wish someone with more skill was throwing the ball