Unicorn of War's White Fang video: th-cam.com/video/G54cEln_cwc/w-d-xo.html 0:00 Introduction 2:04 Roman Torchwick (and Neo) 3:22 Cardin Winchester 4:51 Cinder Fall 8:10 Emerald Sustrai and Mercury Black 10:45 Adam Taurus 16:02 Salem 19:19 Jacques and Whitley Schnee 21:24 Tyrian Callows 24:14 Raven Branwen 27:12 Ilia Amitola 29:23 Leonardo Lionheart 30:49 Vernal 32:15 Hazel Rainart 35:24 Caroline Cordovin 38:06 Arthur Watts 40:53 James Ironwood 42:48 Conclusion Note: Josh Grelle uses they/them pronouns, whereas Tyrian doesn't. I unknowingly used "he" to refer to both of them, and although I will not be reuploading the entire video to fix it, I do sincerely apologize. It was not my intent misgender them.
Unicorn of war in that same video says that people who are black in TV need to be played by the respective race....meaning you should judge people on skin color alone and not skill.........I think your both talking about stuff way over your heads.......
@@midderdixon I don't disagree with the concept, and there are some VA's who can pull off "foreign" accents successfully, but there's not many. So, in the end, it is more believable if VA's voice characters of the same ethnicity as themselves. Down Under, we cringe every time an American voices an Australian character. Trust me, you need an Aussie to voice an Aussie.
I'm shocked how most of the times people talk about Adam they almost never address how vastly different from how his character was portrayed in...season 2 I think? Where Adam and the white fang are at camp and Cinder shows up wanting to recruit him. He says no not wanting to risk Faunes lives for a humans schemes. THEN she threatens to kill his entire camp and he only agrees so she doesn't kill em. From the information wr ate given until the end of season 3, he is clearly being set up as a morally grey character. Compassionate and accepting for Faunes yet cold and heartless towards humans, which in his case is justified. This all goes down hill when they reveal that there was a romance between he and Blake, and that he was obsessed over her...but that wouldn't make sense...if we are to assume he was as manipulative and obsessed as we are shown then why let Blake go in the first place? Why ever bring her to missions with him where he will clearly kill someone in front of her and not pretend to be merciful but then take the prisoners out in the back and execute them? Surely that is something a manipulative character like Adam would do riiight? Certainly that would be far more compelling then what we got...but no...he was used as a plot device. To say RWBY's portrayal of politics and descrimination is " Problematic " is an understatement in my view.
Actually watching this video I think I understood their decision with adam. They don't know how to write a gray character like what adam was originally and they realized the villains of the volume were a bunch of shady, oppressed minorities. If they kept going with that angle it would've been extremely problematic later so they decided that instead of focusing on showing Adam's good side, they would focus on the abusive relationship angle instead as a kind of "Look at the monkey" to distract the audience while they wrote the White fang out of the plot.
Do keep in mind however that Monty the creator of this universe, is no longer with us, and with him gone we cannot for sure know if this is truly how he imagined RWBY going. There are so many inconsistencies with the progression of the story for me to believe that they are following his dream to the letter.
@@loukritiablack3573 Yes thank you. On top of that according to Shane's letter some parts were changed and edited long before volume 8. We may not even be looking at the original script as some concepts were added at the last minute such as the maidens
I love how you ask for Ironwood to continue on as a morally grey character and doesn't stray into the territory of true villainy, and then episode 1 of Volume 8 immediately dashes those hopes.
Tyrian's a good example of why sometimes, just having a simple, evil villain is the best. As long as they have a fun personality, interesting skills and a memroable design, they don't need a sad backstory or a full explanation for why they're a bastard.
People have said this before. But Adam would have been much better if he wasn't a spited boyfriend but rather a mentor or big brother figure to Blake who felt betrayed when she abandon him and as it was stated by Blake in the early seasons.
but then you dont get internet good boy points for killing off an abusive asshole boyfriend and then having blake and yang hook off with no real build up
I agree. Adam was always more of a revolutionary type with his own mission and ideals. He shouldnt be so obsessed over Blake and is better off trying to actually accomplish his goals and to make it so Blake matters to his narrative, have her actually fight him because his goal and ideal goes against Blake's and it's not like Blake would want to just leave that issue be. Another big problem is that RT doesnt know how to establish their characters and are for the most part inconsistent making it hard to pin point exactly who the character really is because the writing made them so inconsistent, you could literally make different characters out of the inconsistencies.
Me personal headcanon is that Adam was abducted or something and replaced by an impostor who was just absolutely obsessed with Blake for some reason. That's apparently the only way my brain has been able to justify him becoming what he became.
Side note: I think how Watts treats Tyrian while they work together is pretty interesting. It seems like he actually somewhat respects our favorite maniac (complimenting him more than once, calming him down, trusting in his abilities). Nice contrast to the pompous, asshole demeanor he bestows upon everyone else. Also: I adore your section on Tyrian. 🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤
I think he sees the mirror version of himself. While Watt's is clear of mind, forward thinking, and a meticulous planner . Tyrion is crazy, only really cares about serving Salem not the future, and flies by the seat of his pants.
I stopped watching at volume 6 when I saw how Adam died (maybe he died in volume 7 ? I don’t remember) the first time emotionally after being ridiculed and one hit koed then killed the second time by the most empowering and brave representation of friendship/love/sismance(you won’t caught me dare touch upon the black and yellow ship, God forbid) in Blake and Yang . That and the show just straight up bored me
@@togucvinw7 try these shows instead Re Zero My hero academia Zatch Bell Umamusame pretty Derby The wandering witch Selena And try some of clamps works like cardcaptor sakura or xxxholic
To be fair, I'd be pretty frustrated at the council member demanding to know why I was declaring Martial Law when Satan has literally showed up with an army of darkness on my doorstep. If you can't understand this is exactly the situation Martial Law was intended to be used in, maybe you deserve to be shot.
RWBY is like a beautiful trainwreck/masterclass on how to setup something that COULD be interesting, only to instead do something completely predictable and boring.
My hope is the councilman he shot isn’t actually dead cuz yano aura exists. He just shut him up. Still evil, but not as bad and the rest of the ace ops don’t look as bad still following him.
@@SigmaSyndicate try these shows instead Re Zero My hero academia Zatch Bell Umamusame pretty Derby Fate stay night And try some of clamps works like tsubasa Reserve chronicles or xxxholic
Here's the thing with Ironwood; he had good intentions, Qrow said he was trustworthy, he had a plan, a good plan to use the arena as a global communications hub, and he was doing the best that he could do within reason with what he had. The problem is that is was still leaning on Ozpins advice of not telling the world about Ozpin, the relics, and maidens and Salem, plus Team RWBY were basically lying to his face and going behind his back. The fact that he started taking extremes was in response to his situation and that the people he outright said he trusted lied to him. So of course hes gonna do what he believes is best, even if he is a bit compromised. The world needed to know the truth. Ozpin created this hellish situation that Ironwood is now trying to fix. Team RWBY (and the writers at RoosterTeeth) just made everything that much more difficult. Also Tyrian is a riot. I enjoy every moment he is on screen, is insanity reminds me of Mark Hamill's Joker (Anarchy) and I too will salute if he is killed.
@@BabyGirlTiny yes he did. He created the seasonal maidens, which basically act as glorified keys to the relics, he established the 4 kingdoms and schools and he basically allowed the knowledge of Salem and the original gods to fade into fairy tale while withholding the truth. He took free Choice and Knowledge away from humanity, hence the giant mess of Grimm and Salem Ironwood and everyone else has to try and stop.
The Path to Hell is paved with good Intentions. A Saying that Ozpin should've looked into, but now it seems Ironwood is well on the way to finding out.
"The world needed to know the truth." Okay. Why? Just because it' the truth and the relics, Salem and Ozpin are there? What exacly does that even begin to accomplish other than a step back?
@@1OtherMr the world needs to know because that is the half baked story and plot RoosterTeeth came up with after Monty's passing. It's not perfect, I dont know what Monty really had in mind for RWBY and honestly, I think at this point, Roosterteeth is flying by the seat of their pants. Its just how I viewed the entirety of V7 and the other proceeding volumes after V3. I'm pointing things out as provided by RT, and even though I try to understand the whole point and after seeing Ironwood shoot the councilman, I dont really care anymore. I'll watch to see what happens, but after V7 where Ironwood seemed to be the only well rewritten character (my opinion), I dont have much hope. Salem can win or lose, the world can learn the truth, or stay ignorant, Oz can finally get his act together or whatever.
They got some pretty good mileage out of her, as far as cameos go. Her scream when Cinder breaks her aura is *bonechilling.* But yeah I’d really love if she played a character that stuck around
I mean if we want to talk missed opportunities Travis Willingham had a single line before Torchwick made his ship crash into his other ship and Monica Rial as Sienna for 5 seconds.
I'm gonna have to disagree about Mercury and Emerald. I actually think that Mercury is far more redeemable than Emerald. Hear me out: The scene in V6C9 that you said doesn't have much subtext actually does have one crucial bit of subtext: Mercury is trying _really_ hard to be evil. Violence is all he's known so he wants to embrace it, he wants to be a sadistic little shit like those around him. And with time, he convinced himself that that is who he is, but... I don't think he takes any real pleasure from his evil deeds. I think he just wants to _think_ that he takes pleasure. Summed up perfectly by Tyrian in that scene: "The world is mean, and I'm a big bad man now, just like the others!" Emerald on the other hand... did you _see_ her smirk as she watches Tukson slowly realize that he was about to die? Love for Cinder may be her motivation, but her sadism seems far more real since, unlike Mercury, she didn't really have a reason to fake it, at least to my knowledge. What I think the writers are doing - and I hope I'm not giving them too much credit - is a bait-and-switch: Emerald seems to be the redeemable one, but once we dive deeper we realize that, at heart, Mercury is a far better person, he's just better at hiding it.
I think the same way Mercury tries to copy those around him to appear evil, Emerald tries to copy Cinder's confidence to feel closer to her. Her introduction scene is the only time where we can observe her with a femme fatale presence (that is exactly what Cinder is suppose to have), all the other times she seems to be enjoying killing/ hurting people is because she is WITH Cinder and therefore wants to support her every choice. IMO, The difference between Emerald and Mercury is that she found value in herself through Cinder, and idolises her for it, while Mercury is conditioned to over valuing strength due to it being the reason why he is in a permanent disadvantage to everyone else, and is afraid to be put in a position where he has to face his own weaknesses. (Also, can I just say how clever it is to give a disabled character this arc? Hats off for the writers here) In short: just give those two lost kids a healthy parental figure and some peace, please RT, I'm begging you
@@seasustrai6547 That is a good point, though that one opening scene with Tukson really makes it hard for me to believe that Emerald is redeemable, considering Cinder wasn't around... Welp, we'll see
RWBY needs to understand that complex, understandable, and worldly motivations do NOT MESH with villains who seek to end the entire world, and that a tragic backstory does not explain WHY they are doing what they are doing. The solution is easy as hell. Simply have the villains be driven by an unconditional love for Salem. After all, She was there for them at their lowest point, when no one else was. What happens to the rest of the world doesn't matter, as long as they have her. Have Salem's presence be both reverent and euphoric for them. From there, the rest of the characters in Salem's Lot fit naturally. Cinder Fall seeks power, not only to make her surrogate mother proud, but to emulate her. Hazel seeks a family to replace his lost sister, and is willing to do anything for them, regardless of morality. Tyrion is just a psychopath, but appreciates having a mother who both condones his psychotic brutality and is immune to it. Arthur wants to demolish society, specifically Atlas, to overthrow everyone in power and see them humiliated, broken, and powerless. Such a psychotic whim makes more sense if Salem has already given him what he wants. As it is, aside from Tyrion, and maaaaaaaybe Cinder, they all seem pretty apathetic toward Salem, aside from wanting to avoid getting murdered, by her.
So the All For One approach with Shigaraki more or less? Someone who acts as a mentor figure for those who have no-where to go and no one to turn to in their time of need?
I'm often scared to speak so much as a critical _word_ about the handling of Adam's. Misconstrue one thing about his character and what he represents, phrase one thing poorly, you're liable to have people rip you apart, deride you as a misogynst, racist or any combination thereof. Cannot express enough respect for your responsible analysis of Adam, great video
Case in point: Eren Denburg Niederhoffer Literally been going around every comment chain involving Adam and just assaulting everyone with insults, and insulting everything else he can think of. I jumped in to tell him that he shouldn’t get so worked up over a work of fiction and he reported my comment. Twice.
@@LegendPurpleDragon152 I've been seeing him on the thread too he's being very obsessive and isn't really making any arguments just saying "no" repeatedly.
They way they misused Adam should be taught in writing classes. You have your own version of Magneto ready and waiting and you still managed to blow it.
Yep. Xmen is a good example of people with super powers who are oppressed. Most mutants are basically normal people and they are scattered all over the world. Through magneto and professor x, mutants all over can find unity in working with humanity or destroying it.
Don’t get e started on the bandits. Raven and Qrow were tough enough to easily pass the entrance exams to Beacon. Yet these Bandits are about as good as Junior’s Thugs from volume I. They totally missed the mark on the bandit tribe.
To be honest I question why Raven cares about her bandit tribe. Everyone is pretty weak and they didn't seem any stronger than a white fang goon. For someone who strives to be "strong" she is surrounded by useless people under her.
@@eduardopantoja9115 There's actually a Raven vs Adam comic that explains the tribe in the show was one Raven took over after being ousted by the actual Branwen tribe.
@@Blizzic If only you were able to remember that Adam tried to murder a train of civilians in his very 1st trailer and in volume 2 dismissed the deaths of his men at Mount Glenn
@@eren34558 Nitpicks are nitpicks. Volume 2 is basically noncanon at this point anyways (They successfully stopped the Grimm attack on Vale, but in V3 suddenly Cinder's calling it a "colossal failure"). But hey, you farm your clout and repeat your comment.
@@liveonguitar5625 Volume 2 is non Canon? I'm sorry that's hilarious. Do you recall burning the candle episode where Yang spoke to Blake about her parents? Taiyangxsummer? I have met over a 1000 people who actively repressed that episode from their mind and memory because they did not want to talk about Yang discussing summer or the fact that summer had raised Yang. The fact that you people are so quick to deny something exists is disturbing. After mount Glen as bird uncle put it? Crime stopped. Thats what happened. You dont get to call v2 non-canon. Monty helped make that
Adam kills his boss and murders civilians. What do you do? Blame blake? Adam tries to blow up a train of civilians in his trailer. You blame blake. Could you explain how you people never pay attention?
@Metsarebuff 22 Existentialism is like what you see in anime so many times. I'd like to know how boku no hero academia has a midget's named mineta Whose sole purpose is to sexually harass women in complain and somehow nobody minds even though hes the type that would be a complete villain while Bakugo is considered to be heroic despite being an asshole like qrow
@Metsarebuff 22 I also want to know how people get away with projecting their desires on what they want Adam to be, and getting pissy because the writers dont give them their fantasies?
lol at ironwood becoming that generic dictator who kills people who question him when his main theme was about sacrificing humanity both literally and figuratively only for him to kill a senator who essentially was just doing his job. Sure he tried to kill Ozpin/Oscar but he didn't try to kill him because Ozpin questioned his actions he sacrificed his (human)friendship Ozpin and his idealogy where you have to save everyone for his inhumane idealogy where you save who you can. it was really beautiful and was a great foil to ruby's "save everyone no matter what" idealogy that too bad the show is now changing the response to that from "you can't save everyone, we'll save who we can and if you don't like it then sit in jail until you see things my way" to "you can't save everyone so just kill shit"
I wouldn't even mind if Ironwood straight up joined Salem's side, as in like "I'll do your bidding, and in return, you'll spare Atlas" Literally doing anything he can to save his own kingdom. But no, he is just killing anyone who even questions him now. The writers are trash.
@Gameboy224 I can already tell that it's gonna end with Winter and the Ace... ops? turn against him because he's being morally bad. He's actively turning his own allies against himself now. What he's doing is stupid, full stop.
I was done with Ruby after Adam's death. I got over changing his motivation from intimidating revolutionary to Blake's evil ex pretty quickly. I hate how 5 seasons of BlackSun was flushed down the toilet for Bumblebee, but doesn't matter to the overall story. What was the last straw for me was Adam's face reveal (and season 5), the scar over his left eye was something that would have been huge for Wiess's character growth. So much so that they should have kept her a spoiled and racist little brat UNTIL she has seen that scar and realizes her family and ppl like them are responsible for the white fang's militant turn. That her life of privilege was built directly on the backs of Faunus like Adam. Making her indirectly responsible for everyone Adam has killed because her family directly created Adam. But instead, Adam is wasted to build up a ship only a fraction of the fandom wanted. The one person Adams scar would have meant something to never got to see it. Writing this bad doesn't deserve support.
Give these shows support instead Re Zero My hero academia Umamusame pretty Derby Zatch Bell Angels of death Little witch academia And try some of clamps works like cardcaptor sakura or xxxholic
@@noahwiley2846 - The only shows you recommend that I haven't seen are pretty Derby, Angels of Death, and xxxholic. I'll have to take some time to check them out. And it's been a while since I watched Zatch Bell and CC Sakura. You have pretty solid tastes, I approve.
I don’t think Ironwood is even a villain. He is still trying to do the right thing. Team RWBY almost never faces consequences and can stay blindly optimistic without any fair reason. They want to safe all, but the goal has to be realistic. If even at Beacon not everyone could be saved, how do they want to manage to safe everyone when there is a giant whale, whose even more black than my liver? Ironwood is making the choice nobody has the stomach to make. That’s not evil. And for that reason, look at Clover and Crow Crow was a factor Clover died. He broke his aura when there was a freaking happy go lucky murderer free wanting to fight them. Crow and Tyrian even teamed up?! And when Clover died, the guy who is loyal to Ironwood till his dead, Crow decide to screw Clovers last wish and blames Ironwood for this? Ironwood hugged even that blackbird when the met again. He gave Yang an arm for free and no thank you?? I’ll side with Ironwood any day than ungreatfull people
Yeah, Ironwood is certainly an antagonist, but never a villain. Edit: watched the first ep of volume 8. Now he's in straight up villain territory. There was no need for what he did.
@@jimfox1477 Yeah, people keeping hitting him without processing that they're hitting a child who was forced into all this. Or maybe they don't care. It's never. addressed. Even by Ruby.
Incredible display of maturity in not only recognizing your past faults but directly resolving them by remaking the video. Great analysis, awesome editing and good job updating in time for volume 8, keep it up!
I LOVE the way you break down characters so much. Your analysis of Mercury and Raven are so concise and to the point but are still filled with so much nuance. I really enjoy your writing style
Your hopes about Ironwood mirrored mine exactly. V7 made me think that he could be set up as a cool antagonist, who isn't ~evil~ but who still opposes team RWBY since they have different priorities (him stopping Salem + the end justifies the means, them saving Mantle even if it risks Salem winning). But V8 literally shot that hope in the face so :) that's cool i guess :)
I know you said you think Watts is just okay. But I personally, LOVE HIM. Out of all the villains he's my favorite. And I think there's more to him. Then you gave credit for. Not only is he the gentlemen/scientist villain. But he's also a deal maker he has a silver tong to get people to do what he wants. Like when he made Jacques his pawn. Also he seems more open with Salem like when he interrupted the meeting with her and leo just to poke fun at Cinder. Questioning her when she said Cainder was alive. Which leads me to believe he is the second in command of the group. And if you watch the Volume 4 intro, the part were they show Salem and her team. Watts is standing right below her. And in volume six when they show them Watts is front and center with the others behind him and Salem being above him. Again I believe showing us he is her right hand. And feel like out of all of Salem's general's he will be the one to go down last.
I like this. Most criticism try to make the show into something else. You simply look at it, and try to find the best way you can find such that the show could still be itself. The fact that you break down the characters and try to find out why they didn't deliver to you personally gives it much more weight to your arguments.
If I understand your point about self conflict correctly, would Azula from avatar be a good example? She operates on a philosophy of fear and power instilled by Ozai but ultimately seeks love from her mother that she never received and hopes she can gain it through her fathers methods.
The real problem with Adam and the White Fang in general isn't just the piss poor writing. It just lacks any real nuance, and that just makes everything fall apart. You can make a story about "the oppressed becoming the oppressors," but it needs to make sense. If you don't do that then it's sloppy at best, and can say the opposite of you meant to say at worse. Honestly it's no suprise that Adam is this poorly developed, considering he was never really meant to be a character and was more of a throwaway.
Considering that Monty made unique animation between specifically Yang and Adam, that tells me he actually was meant to be a character rather than a throw away, especially considering he's supposed to match yang unlike Jr. or the twins. Besides that, I don't think the white fang was ever supposed to be a "oppressed becomes the oppressor" story when they are initially committing terrorism from the beginning. They were honestly just a group standing in opposition of the main cast and nothing else.
@@furyberserk If that was the goal of the White Fang, to just have them be a bunch of faceless mooks for our noble heroes to cut down, then I think that makes it worse than if it was just a mishandling of the "oppressed becomes the oppressor" story. They should've just had them be a generic criminal gang instead of trying to look more "nuanced" than they actually were and stapling 'violent anti-racist revolutionaire' to a group of evil redshirts.
@@furyberserk so why create this entire story where they’re oppressed and subjugated to racism if they were meant to be nothing more than mindless terrorist with no story? Are you admitting that the writers are completely tone deaf and have no idea what they’re writing
@@Enchie pretty sure they didn't evolve. After all Faunus also just kind of showed up. I think the implication is that all live in this world that's not Grim came from the white pond and created by the dark god's brother. When he abandoned the world he left his pond behind to continue to produce life and EVENTUALLY humans as well. But without his guidance the pool began to make mistakes and started to mix humanity with other species which created the Faunus. Because remember they apparently Faunus didn't exist BEFORE humanity was wiped out. Also the fact humanity could even appear in a world with monsters implies they just kind of spawned ... since there is no way individual humans could possibly survive. They'd need to just kind of spawn as a group.
Nobody wants power if they have no intention of using it, and if there's no clear intention then it's paranoia, fearing you'll need power in the future without knowing exactly knowing why, or thanatophobia, utter fear of death. These goals are not original but find their depth in their background. An example would be Vergil in Devil May Cry, the guy is pretty aimless when you see the whole picture, also a power seeker with no clear goal beyond that, but explained by the childhood trauma of feeling too weak to save her mom. Even though he knows the only thing he really wished to used it for is long gone, he keeps seeking power in an unfulfillable goal.
Honestly, I love Hazel so much, I really hope they can do something with him properly instead of "RAH OZPIN BAD HULK SMASH". Like the way he doesnt like unnecessary death ("No body needed to die today") and cares for children (His sister, Oscar, Emerald), I hope they expand on his compassion and less on his hulk rage monster mode.
It would be interesting if they examined his hypocrisy and made it explicit that he was deep in denial to protect himself from the pain and grief of his sister's death and the weight of his own actions. As it is, I kind of can't stand how he hates Ozpin for sending people to die while actively murdering people and causing the same grief he despises Ozpin for causing him with Gretchen. If Gretchen was killed by Grimm then why the hell is he taking orders from the seeming queen of Grimm and helping her kill massive numbers of people?
@@williamharmon4039 ugh his sister's death is so lame. A training mission? Really? Was she killed by Grimm? If so, why is Hazel working for someone who CONTROLS the Grimm? Did she go out like RWBY, Sun and Neptune v Torchwick and got herself killed? If so, what did Ozpin have to do with her death? Was she killed by criminals? Why didn't Hazel target the criminals instead of Ozpin? How did she really die? I would've preferred if Gretchen was a maiden candidate and Ozpin's first attempt to test the aura transferring machine. The machine was a prototype and thus not as advanced as the one used on Pyrrha. Because of this Gretchen dies from the power transfer and the magic goes somewhere else. In this instance, I can see Hazel being pissed at Ozpin. Why he sided with Salem is beyond me though.
Personally Raven would have to be the biggest disappointment for me villain wise, an its all thanks to the admittedly little but still there stuff building up the Branwen tribe as well a tribe. As an indigenous person any kind of indigenous character/topics (Whether they be real or fake) in a piece of media get me interested, and there's some actual real stuff you could dig into with the set up of things as is. But the Branwen tribe just ended up being a group of just bandits, but I guess that's what's fanfiction for (Assuming I can ever manage to get off my ass an write it)
I think the point was in a world with monsters walking around everywhere those who try to live outside of the protection of major powers don't tend to last long. As such the Branwen tribe become bandits to get what they need to survive and fight back. Both against Grim and those that obviously aren't happy to have their stuff stolen. This could still work as a way of showing how hard it is to be independent in a world where literal monsters exist. But they never got that deep into it and mostly skimmed past it so the build up went to waste.
I agree with your argument about Adam, but I think another key part of the problem with Adam is that he's set up as the ultimate leader of White Fang. Sure, technically Sienna's higher, but Adam's the one calling all the shots, and he's the one most identified with the face of White Fang. Adam's negative character traits wouldn't be quite as problematic if he was more of a "mid-boss" - a key admin overseeing a good portion of White Fang, but not the head leader. With that sort of set-up, Adam would initially be what we see of the White Fang and be the primary antagonist in that sector, but as the story progressed his role would be supplanted by a leader like Sienna, who then becomes the main antagonist driving the White Fang. This leader would be a radical and revolutionary, but have a more well-rounded personality, where we understand and empathize with their motives even if the justification for their means is up for debate. Instead, Sienna only has a brief appearance before getting usurped by Adam, who again takes over White Fang. So we never get to see a White Fang leader with a more balanced character.
U mentioned The Promised Neverland and I immediately knew who u were taking about. If u love anime I HIGHLY recommend u watch it. It is an amazing experience
Correction: at 15:20 you mention that the writers made this mess before RWBY was even a show, however there is considerable evidence that the plot of RWBY was altered significantly after Monty's passing (for example, the changes to Jaun's motivations and how Pyra was supposed to die or Sun getting written out because he was hard to animate). Up to the end of Volume 3, based purely on what we had seen to that point, Adam's anger with Blake could have been over what he viewed as abandoning a just cause and subsequently joining the enemy, which would be tied deeply to his emotional investment in Blake from their time together. Even him oneshotting Yang but ultimately not killing either of them is murky enough from a character standpoint to have a lot directions it could go. It is entirely possible that Adam was supposed to be redeemed, or that someone else was planned to take over the Fang and cast him down after he threw in too deeply with the Grim and stopped representing the interests of the Faunis (Blake herself maybe?), but we have all seen quite clearly the capacity RT has for character writing or planning and executing satisfying subplots. Edit: wrong timestamp
Still watching, but I wanna make a quick comment on Adam. I know some people don't like the idea of minorities being the bad guys (personally I think that's a load partially because it implies that just because someone is oppressed, they're automatically exempt of all wrongdoing, but not really the point), but Adam honestly could've been a really good Magneto type character, but instead we got the hot mess we got.
@@benjaminmcneil574 Well the comparison works because they both follow a similar archetype and Magneto is the best and most famous example in fiction. Mags is a Holocaust survivor who became a Mutant supremacist and Adam was a victim of Faunus oppression who became a Faunus supremacist and terrorist.
@@themysteriousmista4922 I'm well aware of that, and that's the sad part. He could've been so much more, but RT can't write serious topics for shit. Hell, he didn't even necessarily be a Magneto. He could've been something else entirely that still made sense. The thing that really pisses me off about it (if true) is that they supposedly used the excuse of being white for why they couldn't properly write racial issues.
Adam had so much potential. After Monty died... RIP, I feel like they changed him because he could have been redeemed if you change some things. Adam wants justice but how he obtain that justice is just such as killing. I believe Blake could have changed him through a TEAM effort. Honestly I would support the white fang
Here's the thing about Ironwood I don't agree with... I don't see him as a villain. He's being pragmatic in the face of unrealistically idealistic heroes. This is the guy who gave Yang a new arm no questions asked, stood up for Weiss during a charity event for Vale when everyone was talking shit about Vale, tries to get communications back online and what happens? Ruby and co decide to ignore all the good he's done for them in prior seasons, lie to him when he flat out said he trusts them and proves it by showing them his plans for Amity, then YANG (and Blake) of all people betrays him to Robyn Hill. Yang who is literally wearing his kindness on her arm! In all honesty, I see Ironwood as the unsung hero of Vol 7 and teams RWBY and JNPR have basically become just as bad as the villains they are trying to stop, because they are unwilling to compromise on Ruby's unrealistic and fatally idealistic and fairytale-like 'save everyone' mentality. The real world doesn't work like that. Sometimes sacrifices need to be made... Especially when a who knows how many years old witch is flying towards your base on a giant fucking whale, and she fucking TELLS YOU she'll be there any minute! The problem is, Ruby is in charge. She shouldn't be. She's the youngest person in the entire group for one. For another they have a Qrow, someone whose known James for YEARS! Instead of him taking point, Blake, who has her first real conversation with Ruby ever outside of Vol 1 I think tells Ruby they'll back whatever play she makes. Like, is it just me, or does none of this make sense? I don't even hate Ruby as a character its just... she's so damn annoying at times! Like, how can I put this? She's never had sacrifice anything to get to where she is. Sure her mom died, but... other than that, she hasn't really lost much. She got into Beacon two years early, was made the leader of a team of girls two years her senior, and finds out she has magical eyes that can kill Grimm... It just feels like a lot of this was just handed to her and she hasn't really had to overcome all that much. People will probably say, "But Penny and Pyrrha died!" My rebuttal would be, "Yeah, and Penny came back and look how 'excited' she was to see her friend she was dead again." Another argument would be, "Well, she has to work to control her Silver Eyes." My response "Good! she has to actually work on screen to get good at something for once!" Lastly the Ace Ops fight. Team RWBY should not have won that fight. Hands down, they should've gotten their asses handed to them. On silver platters. Not the least reason of which was because just moments prior Ruby was talking with Salem and learned she had a hand in her mother's death. How Ruby hasn't figured this out earlier when she was talking with Maria about her Silver Eyes, and Ruby flat out says Salem is hunting down people with Silver Eyes. No, Salem has to admit it. Ruby has a breakdown, and moments later she taunting Ace-Ops who they got training from for all of a month... Ace-Ops who've been training together for years? Longer? I dunno, but I do know they shouldn't have beaten by a bunch of kids... the fact they were is just bad writing. I could go on, with how they turned Adam Tarus from this badass into a jilted lover that get's killed by Yang (who was suffering from PTSD right up until the point where she MEETS the cause of said PTSD, that's not how PTSD works CREWBY!) and Blake, Sun got shipped off to Side Material Land, I mean Vacuo so Bumblebee could be shipped harder than Naruto and Sasuke ever were, even though Sun spent an entire volume with Blake. And don't even get me started on Oscar and how obvious it is that Ozma is slowly taking over his soul... So much has gone wrong in RWBY lately, but honestly Ironwood shooting Oscar was NOT one of them in my mind. P.S. Sorry for the rant, I just needed to get this out.
@@RJLiams Yes, it's called a 'jumping the shark' moment. One where CREWBY completely Assassinates Ironwood's character, because he 'must' be shown as evil because he opposes our 'morally correct' heroes. There's is a difference between what is morally correct and what is pragmatic however. Ironwood flat out says it not feasibly possibly to get everyone on Atlas in time, and protect it from Salem, which caused this whole mess in the first place. What is Team RWBY ORNJ's 'plan' at the start of season 8? To STILL try and do both! Proving that their idealism has blinded them to what is actually possible for a dozen or so people to achieve. Judging by the into to this season they are going to hopefully going to fail epically at their plan and realize James was right the entire time.
God I hope so. It would give weight to decision making that has consequences that has been horribly absent from the show. Imo, the remainder of Team JNPR should die to really set in stone the poor decision making the "Heroes" have made up to this point. Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but the cast needs to experience loss that was directly caused by their choices. They'll have to learn to cope with that then move forward as best they can and change, hopefully for the better, as a result.
@@JaesWasTaken Indeed Jaes, Team RWBY especially the 'R' in said team need a big 'L' so they can do some growing up. I'm gonna be honest though, I'm pretty sure Jaune isn't going to die. It's not just because I'm a fan of his either. It's because Jaune is going through the Monomyth, or the 'actual' Heroes Journey. He heeded the call to adventure in getting into Beacon, got aid from a mentor in Pyrrha which he lost,. I'd say he's about halfway through all the steps at the moment. The step 'I think' he's on ironically involves him almost dying or a confrontation with his father... whichever one seems more likely at this point. Either way, that doesn't protect Ren and Nora whose relationship is not only on the rocks at this point, but with the Intro and The Hound potentially being synonymous with the Big Bad Wolf but also possibly Fenrir from Norse Mythology with its ability to rapidly shapeshift... Yeah one of them might be dying.
I share your exact opinions when it comes to ironwood. Mainly because volume 7 made him the most well written character in the series and absolutely carried the volume. And the only villain besides Adam to really have a motivation that can people can actually debate on. Also 0:45 is pretty much my biggest problem with the show
@@noahwiley2846 Fucking hated what they did to my man Ironwood. I thought Adam's derailment was bad but this was a whole new level of dumb. The made the man so unescarily and out of his way evil for no reason and I also hate how team rwby almost unanimously think they aren't responsible and think they are in the right. Like morally grey does exist people. Everything after Salem's defeat was trash as well since Ironwood has literally no reason to be evil yet they decide to have him needlessly put innocents in danger. We can't even say this is semblance because no one acknowledges it. So when he needlessly kills Jacque another now wasted character and fight Winter I'm just like "how did we get here?" Doesn't help that in Ironwood's mind he basically dies alone by himself thinking he's failed with the series trying to make me feel bad for Emerald and Cinder over the guy who was trying to save the world. So glad I don't support this show directly.
@@DonniedrakoE yeah when winter left him for dead dispit everything he's done for everyone else and the way the show kept treating him like he's doing it for selfish reasons was too far. I haven't really watched the show since volume 6 and only kept up with people I know and I'm glad did with stuff like this that happened
I think I've realised why I like the earlier volumes so much more than the recent ones- RWBY is great at building things up, but when it comes time to show off the results, its apparent that this essay was written minutes before the deadline.
I laughed at "abandits them" It was a good joke lol But in seriousness, this was a really good video. It was both entertaining and educational on breaking down these characters. Great work!
When it comes to abuse victims who are also harmful to others, I do think it's really important to remember that while pitying them is all well and good, and that the abuse they suffered helps us understand why they do what they do, it isn't an excuse for what they do. People are still responsible for their own actions. This all gets murkier when talking about a fictional character ofc, since they aren't harming real people. But when you relate the fictional character back to real life, it's important to reiterate this. Too often folks in real life excuse or enable more awful behavior from others bc of things like this. It's a vicious cycle, but there are still choices involved.
32:09 Actually the "Did you kill her too part" is to do with the old Raven that Tai described and not Vernal as her body was not in the same place of where Raven looked.
@IMABANANA64 it is but it actually kinda addresses his point Her "....and I refuse to starve " comment seems to come from how abused she was when she was adopted as a teen Both her adoptive mom and sisters treated her like garbage and Cinder even had a shock collar on her Salem has her hoarding the Maiden powers which are the Vault keys Despite not having total freedom and being under Salem's thumb she has more control over her life than she's probably EVER had She refuses to give it all up
There's a good way and a bad way to write a character/antagonist that wants power, if you want to see a good way then look at Vergil from DMC, if you want to see a bad way then look at Cinder.
I very much believe that there is some fuckery going behind the scenes of RWBY with RoosterTeeth. After a certain point, shit just started derailing and I really believe they are not following Monty Oum's dream to the letter. There is just so much inconsistency going on and it really smells like studio interference, especially with Adam, his character just took a nose dive from a morality standpoint. You said it yourself, the show has an exaggerated view of morality, but that doesn't mean that morally grey characters can't exist within it. I think that they just took that sentence and just ran with it and are now using it as an excuse. They just can't write morally grey and this is why we only see the two extremes. Also, can I say, fuck this whole "you left him" spiel Willow gives Weis? Weis, while a big sister and thus responsible at some degree for her brother, especially since Winter bounced, is still a victim herself. It is not her place to fix her family, it's her parents' and in this case Willow's. Willow is the less sucky adult in the equation, she married the asshat she married and it is her responsibility to take care of her children when that started going south. Weis, could have done so much as a child herself with little to no power. What could she have done, really? I'm not saying that that diminishes anything about Whitely's character, I completely agree with your analysis. But I have such a hatred for that scene.
This was thoroughly enjoyable and though you insist you're an idiot who isn't good at this stuff, I personally think that this level of analysis is the level I strive to for my own RWBY analysis videos. You were articulate and thorough and your points flowed well with each other, and you never failed to convey your point in an elegant way. Well done! Subscribed!
Ah, this seems like the perfect place to talk about this idea: RWBY has three characters who have some kind of similarity to Vergil from Devil May Cry. Those characters are Adam, Raven, and Cinder. Adam being his design and fighting style, Raven being the "shitty twin" and the portals, and Cinder being the inhuman lust for power.. But somehow, the three of them combined don't even amount to a third of his likability.
I disagree with you, both RWBY and Cordvin were both idiots in that situation. RWBY could have simply called Winter or Ironwood for permission, let Weiss go on her own, or have Qrow go with her in bird form or even simply fly to Ironwood in bird form. They were many other solutions besides stealing an ship which they should know could result in creating negative emotions. Though bringing out an mech just to kill an bunch of teenagers is dumb.
@@Sephajinami - Agree with your first point. - Letters being intercepted by Weiss family or Salem agents is just headcanon, it's never mentioned by any of the characters for an reason not to do it. - What in the world is Weiss family going to do? Take her by force? She has one of the most powerful semblances, she could take them all down before they could do anything. - Once again bribing other huntsmen is nothing but headcanon as its not an reason used by the characters as an reason not to have Weiss go on her own. And considering the Ace Ops were the best huntsmen in Altas I don't think they would be much of an threat. - Qrow could have just flow to Ironwood or go with Weiss in the form of an bird in case something happened.
@@Sephajinami He said in case it got intercepted, there was no guarantee it would be. All huntsmen are in the hands of Ironwood in Altas. Thus its unlikely her father would be able to do that. He was depressed, until Ruby gave him an pet talk and encouraged him, if Ruby did the same thing there would be no problem. Finally, none of the reasons you give our stated by the characters, thus it would be headcanon.
@@Sephajinami Why couldn't they call Winter or Ironwood once they were in Atlas? World wide communication is down, not local and we've seen that it's up within the individual kingdoms otherwise scrolls would be useless and they are used constantly. Bribing Hunters? Who are they going to get, Atlas? They all work for the military under ironwood. You already pointed out worldwide comms are down and you're assuming that they are like mercenaries in any case or any threat.
The old lady was power mad and senile but she was loyal to ironwood and ironwood prefers people that he can control. If you actually watched and observed the characters you'd learn that but instead you are looking for faults that don't exist
This is kind of a late comment but imo Salem is like the lich from adventure time. She’s got infinite time on her hands because eventually she will win. But her single mindedness just reminds me of the “you’re so evil it’s boring” line Finn said towards the lich. They’re both inevitable and both evil to the core, the lich just has more gravitas and better monologues.
I saw the transition to Salem and my first thought was let’s be honest she’s not a villain she’s barely a character. A villain has to do something and Salem doesn’t
I love that you used Undertale and Deltarune music for this video. It also made me realize how much better Undertale/Deltarune antagonists are written compared to this series.
I haven't watched a single episode of Rwby but I love videos like this. Your breakdowns are so interesting to listen to and really makes me wanna write up some villains to capitalize on the ideas Rwby fumbled
As someone who commented on the first video, i thought I'd through in my two cents once again on two of the villains discussed: Adam and Cinder. First Adam: I feel much of the critique against Adam is a mis-reading of the character as a "Representative of freedom fighters", but I feel this is inaccurate. From the first volume the White Fang is presented as toxic even to other Faunus: "Lisa: Thank you, Cyril. In other news, this Saturday's Faunus Civil Rights protest turned dark when members of the White Fang disrupted the ceremony. The once peaceful organization has now disrupted..." “Stupid holier-than-thou creeps who use force to get whatever they want.” -Sun, to Blake about the White Fang The White Fang in the show do not represent revolutionaries (That's Ghira, Blake and Sienna to a lesser extent), but rather a CORRUPTION of that revolution. They're more analogous to the Taliban. Claimin to stand for an oppresed group and then using that position to justify their initial oppression (Taliban initially enjoyed enormous good will from Afghans weary of the corruption, brutality, and the incessant fighting of Mujahideen warlords.). They can also be compared to groups like Antifa or PETA who pretend to stand for one thing while enforcing the opposite (They claim to want to end opression while in reality, THEY just want to be the oppressors) and ultimately end up doing more harm to their cause. Even in the real life Black Lives protests, people causing riots and destruction of property has been so harmful to the message and cause of Black Lives that actual White Supremacists groups have been posing as protesters and using the EXACT SAME TACTICS the White Fang employs as a way to discredit the protests: acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-violence-in-america-new-data-for-summer-2020/ Ironically, they can also be seen as similar to the original Nazi Party. The first (self-proclaimed) National Socialists rose to power at a time when Germany was treated as the world's bootheel. They became popular because they claimed to care for and protect a country that, at the time, felt abused and oppressed, of course by the time the people of Germany learned what the party REALLY wanted, it was too late. Adam in particular feels analogous to many an abusive cult-leader who claims to care for the mistreated but use their pretense of "protector" to justify their own mistreatment. Also, in the scene of self-defence, what takes the action from self-defence to needless violence is the gap in power between Adam and a normal person. With his Aura, semblance and sheer speed, Adam had hundreds of ways to instantly neutralise the attacker without killing them. Making his use of explicitly LETHAL force into over-kill (Like if Superman used his heat-vision to melt a muggers face instead of their weapon) Essentially it's Racists. Normal people. Revolutionaries. Faux-revolutionaries like Adam's White Fang. THE ACTUAL PROBLEM. The real problem here I feel, is that the White Fang has no opposite. The story I think RWBY wants to tell is one of cruel oppressors and violent extremists posing as liberators, with the actual liberators having to fight BOTH. Those who oppose their goal, and those who corrupt it. The problem is that aside from racist assholes, we don't see real direct oppression on screen, which makes the story feel unbalanced (In fact, some critics feel that the Faunus AREN'T oppresed and that characters like Blake are fighting over nothing). The heroes spend more time fighting the extremists, so it looks to some like they're siding with the oppressors. If the anti-Faunus crimes of people like Jacques Schnee were given more attention and RWBY had to fight both to free the Faunus AND fight against Adam trying to use the Faunus to become a tyrant himself, it would be a much more balanced portrayal. In fact, this seemed to be the direction in the "Black" short. Blake was fighting against the SDC's abuse, but opposed the murder of innocent civilians. This is how the show can support revolution while opposing extremism. Of course in this day and age, the politics has become "My side is the good guys and everything we do is justified because we're the good guys!" So the show would still be blasted for DARING to try and make the statement that you can also have bad people in a revolution (Like Bioshock Infinite was) This post is already pretty big, so I'll talk about Cinder in a seperate post.
This would be a pretty good write up if Adam didn't do a sudden 180° from his early volume characterisation where he doesn't care that Blake left and how he later comments that Blake leaving him was the worst pain he ever felt. Seriously dude, I somehow think that being forced into slavery, being branded, losing an eye and being treated as subhuman most of your life would be slightly worse than a bad breakup with your girlfriend. He also dies like an idiot to a girl that had PTSD caused by him until she actual fought him.
The way Arthur ate Cinder the fuck up with that monologue about her being a pissy little bitch who thinks she deserves everything when she actually deserves nothing while being held LIKE 10 STORIES OFF THE GROUND ON THE BRINK OF DEATH makes him the best villain next to Neo and Tyrian
Arthur joined an immortal witch's evil chaos cult, betrayed his kingdom and helped uproot the world...because sempai didn't choose his project over "that fat imbecile". The rant is great until you realize it's completely hypocritical. At least she feels wronged by needless suffering. Something understandable. "You think you're entitled to _everything_ just because [...you're slimfit and think you're smarter than a chubby dude who built an android with a literal soul]"
As for the cinders motivation for power thing this may be a theory of sorts (just commenting cuz I just had this thought while playing DMC4 special edition (I’m excited for the special edition of five)) what if the reason cinder seeks power is because of a certain feeling of powerlessness she felt at one point early on in childhood such as what had happened to Vergil. Vergil seemed to seek power to prevent the same event from happening to him again but it essentially got twisted to a degree. To that extent perhaps something similar had happened.
I agree RWBY has writing problems but I feel like a part of that is how many villains or antagonists that are thrown into the mix. Literally like saying how many people want to throw their hat into the ring of evil in one show. Like I wouldn't mind a few minor antagonists along with the main current antagonist (Like Roman, Emerald and Mercury being minor ones compared to Cinder in Vol. 1) and having some of those minor ones either becoming a bigger threat later on when the current one is resolved with, or having their arc come to an end (like Roman's arc despite the fact that I feel like he had been taken out just a bit too soon imo.) SOME of the writing is actually pretty good, like Ironwood's character development and where he could end up in the future as it comes. It makes it much more compelling than how they wrote Cinder. With Cinder, they really fell flat with her writing. Yes she wants revenge on Ruby, but that was a motivation that was given to her after Vol. 3 ended. Her character could be written better than it has been. I feel like fans that write fanfiction can do a better job of writing Cinder than the actual show writers can. As for lionheart.....yeah spot on with him being a pawn. A shame though, seeing as he could have been written completely differently. He could have that cowardly side at first but when faced head on about where his morals lay by oscar(ozpin) and the crew, he could have had a change of heart and display courage much like the character he was based off of. A shame that they wasted such a good potential on him. I could go on and on about the other characters here, but I honestly feel like RWBY needs to be rebooted with better writing. The first like....one or two volumes are fine the way they are....maybe with a few tweaks with characters to refine things....but otherwise the rest needs to be rewritten. The episodes about the atrophy (i think that is how it is spelled?) grimm however are not that bad and can stay as they are. There is a lot about this series that have flaws and plot holes big enough to swallow an entire town if combined together....not all of this show has bad qualities.
I thought Salem wanted the gods to come back, see humanity still fighting and have them destroy the world so she can finally die. I mean, she never says that, I just assume that. She already has the grim, she doesn't need the relics. The only thing the relics could do for her is the god summoning.
Sad thing: Not one villain in RWBY (except maybe Torchwick) actually works: 1. Salem, the big immortal bad, does nothing. She sits back and let her lackeys do the job more bad than good, but does she even need lackeys? She can walk through anything Remnant can throw at her, the worst that could happen would be a fight with Ozpin; but with a much superior reviving factor than him, it shouldn't be much of a problem. There is no reason for her to be so passive and that is for an evil overlady just bad. 2. Cinder: Want to be powerful but acts like a brat and doesn't learn anything. The 'doesn't learn anything' archetype can carry you only for a short amount of time, since especially in a world like what Remnant tries to be, stupidity gets you killed. Cinder surviving that long without being killed is just downright stupid. Especially since her motivation of killing Ruby doesn't exist in that one moment, where she actually CAN kill Ruby. 3. Hazel: At the moment he is stupid. Yes, he lost his sister. And yes, maybe Salem turned his grief into hate against Ozpin, but here's the kicker: It doesn't make sense for him to team up with Salem regardless. At least, not initally. He basically kills huntsman, letting other families go through the exact same situation that he was in. He shows no remorse or even understanding about this situation. He may be capable of becoming an understandable villain later on, but as of now, he is just a stupid person. 4. Tyrrian: The only villain which reasoning makes sense given his insanity. But just an insane nutjob doesn't make an interesting character. 5. Watts: Ah, yes. The technological genius that hated that his idea wasn't taken. Like Tyrian his motivation makes sense, making him one of the few understandable villains. And the funny thing is: he was right. Since Penny, a military robot, turned against her superior (Ironwood), she should be considered a failure from a military development standpoint (I'm not talking about a human/philosopical standpoint just to be clear). 6. Ironwood and Corodvin: Not villains! Yes, Cordovin is racist and full of herself, but it is Team RWBY that forces her hand. They steal the aircraft and try to go behind her back. And while her not wanting to let Team RWBY go with Weiss, you have to remember, that Yang is seen guilty of attacking a non fighting person while Blake has ties to the White Fang over her family. Cordovin and her lackeys aren't portrayed as good soldiers, but in this moment she does her job. And the same goes for Ironwood. It is Ruby and her team who lie to him. Yang tells a secret operation to a woman that steal from said operation. Team JNR and Oscar can't defend the relic, Penny betrays him after obtaining the maiden powers out of need by siding with Ruby (even though he made her building and her rebuild possible) etc. That guy has every right to be angry at Ruby and her companions. And that Qrow want to make him responsible for Clover's death, even though Robin attacked at the air craft and he himself allied with a mad person he knows doesn't hesitate to kill (who almost killed him just a few Volumes earlier) is just bad writing. 7. Raven doesn't make sense. She wants to be safe, but take the maiden power. She doesn't kill Salem's agent who knows that she has said powers (or at least doesn't check that Cinder is dead), is a trained huntress but doesn't seem to train her "family" so that they are easily defeated by a huntress in training, even though they have the numeral advantage. I mean, how is it that this tribe is so feared, when there seem to be only two good fighers, one of which is a trained huntress and a maiden. 8. Neo and Emerald only hang on Cinder's coattail without having a purpose of being characters beside that. Same could be said about Mercury, but he has at least a solid backstory. 9. Jacque Schnee is someone I can't really say if he is a villain. Yes, he is an a****le, but in regards of him being racist and an evil business man, the show doesn't show us much of this. We hear that he abuses Faunus, but then we are told that he build them homes etc. We are told that his company run another shop out of business, but did he do that through shady practices? Or couldn't that shop keep up with the development of the market? With the scraps the show gives us it's like they want us to believe, that being a successful businessman alone makes you an evil person. 10. Adam: Everything is said. Adam who could have been a gray character is evil for stepping up against oppression. Once more the show tells us one ting, but looking deeper shows that it doesn't work. He is evil for killing in self defense? No, that doesn't make him evil. He is evil for fighting against oppression? Once again, no. Especially since we are told to belief, that faunus are these super oppressed people. If he was a faunus supremalist then yes, his actions are evil. But that would make Blake also part supremalist and since she is a heroine that can't be. TLDR: Roosterteeth can't write decent villains. The best villains in RWBY are the simpler types (fanatic mad person, intelligent engineer who thinks nobody respect his ideas, etc.). Everyone with a little depth doesn't work because RWBY want us to the them as evil, even though the world of Remnant would paint them more in a grey light that need much more exploration than what the show is giving us.
It would have had we saw it volumes ago or with Weiss present. The White Fang was never handled well. I could parody an ERP video with Adam. "The coolest things about you were straight up abandoned two white boys took a sword and they fucked up your canon".
@@Violent_Wolfen I wanted a flash back where little spoiled baby Weiss did it but didn't understand what she was doing, like 4 or 5 y.o, until it was too late. So then she repressed the memory. But yeah atleast have her reaction
I really wish Adam had fought with Weiss to be honest. Since you know she is the daughter of the person who made the scar in Adam's life. The scar on his face is literally from her father's company. It would be cool if Adam blame Weiss for her father action and she had to fight him.
If I remember correctly Cardins team got their asses kicked by CFVY, this was mentioned by Velvet talking to Blake in the Manga, though since not many people actually cared that much about the manga it's understandable that you wouldn't have known about that
Yeah. Sadly, ""Team RWBY is NEVER wrong" is something the writers seem determined to enforce throughout the show and anyone who even questions them is turned into a villain. I mean, they pretty much killed an entire Kingdom. They're damn terrorists by this point.
I definitely would have preferred if they dropped the abuse angle of Adam's character and wrote him as a chaotic neutral. Evil enough to try and kidnap Weiss to hold her hostage and not think about cutting off Yang's arm, heroic enough to try and save the Faunus of Mantle when Ironwood threatens to blow them up. It would have been cool to see how he interacts with Blake, neither truly wants to hurt the other but Adam keeps going after Weiss and the schools, and Blake keeps getting in the way and it's annoying for all parties involved.
Weiss: "What are you doing here?" Ironwood: "Ruby texted me and said Mantle got hurt. So I brought a nuke!" Ruby: "Why?" Ironwood: "Mantle loves nukes-"
I hate the big villian because of how they made her hair. It makes her head huge and thus makes her arms look comically small. She isn't a towering elegant seductive beauty with the means to destroy the planet, she's an angry short and stubby over-hyped villain. Adam should have been more meaningful instead of just angry/hornboy. Neo is the best because it's hard to screw up a character that doesn't speak.
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bzivN4KDg-k/mqdefault.jpg)
Unicorn of War's White Fang video: th-cam.com/video/G54cEln_cwc/w-d-xo.html
0:00 Introduction
2:04 Roman Torchwick (and Neo)
3:22 Cardin Winchester
4:51 Cinder Fall
8:10 Emerald Sustrai and Mercury Black
10:45 Adam Taurus
16:02 Salem
19:19 Jacques and Whitley Schnee
21:24 Tyrian Callows
24:14 Raven Branwen
27:12 Ilia Amitola
29:23 Leonardo Lionheart
30:49 Vernal
32:15 Hazel Rainart
35:24 Caroline Cordovin
38:06 Arthur Watts
40:53 James Ironwood
42:48 Conclusion
Note: Josh Grelle uses they/them pronouns, whereas Tyrian doesn't. I unknowingly used "he" to refer to both of them, and although I will not be reuploading the entire video to fix it, I do sincerely apologize. It was not my intent misgender them.
I'm not sure why you're linking that WF video as if it's insightful. It's a confused mess.
Unicorn of war in that same video says that people who are black in TV need to be played by the respective race....meaning you should judge people on skin color alone and not skill.........I think your both talking about stuff way over your heads.......
@@midderdixon Exactly.
@@SunlitSonata14272 I hope that that was a joke.
@@midderdixon I don't disagree with the concept, and there are some VA's who can pull off "foreign" accents successfully, but there's not many. So, in the end, it is more believable if VA's voice characters of the same ethnicity as themselves. Down Under, we cringe every time an American voices an Australian character. Trust me, you need an Aussie to voice an Aussie.
I'm shocked how most of the times people talk about Adam they almost never address how vastly different from how his character was portrayed in...season 2 I think? Where Adam and the white fang are at camp and Cinder shows up wanting to recruit him. He says no not wanting to risk Faunes lives for a humans schemes. THEN she threatens to kill his entire camp and he only agrees so she doesn't kill em. From the information wr ate given until the end of season 3, he is clearly being set up as a morally grey character. Compassionate and accepting for Faunes yet cold and heartless towards humans, which in his case is justified.
This all goes down hill when they reveal that there was a romance between he and Blake, and that he was obsessed over her...but that wouldn't make sense...if we are to assume he was as manipulative and obsessed as we are shown then why let Blake go in the first place? Why ever bring her to missions with him where he will clearly kill someone in front of her and not pretend to be merciful but then take the prisoners out in the back and execute them?
Surely that is something a manipulative character like Adam would do riiight? Certainly that would be far more compelling then what we got...but no...he was used as a plot device. To say RWBY's portrayal of politics and descrimination is " Problematic " is an understatement in my view.
Actually watching this video I think I understood their decision with adam. They don't know how to write a gray character like what adam was originally and they realized the villains of the volume were a bunch of shady, oppressed minorities. If they kept going with that angle it would've been extremely problematic later so they decided that instead of focusing on showing Adam's good side, they would focus on the abusive relationship angle instead as a kind of "Look at the monkey" to distract the audience while they wrote the White fang out of the plot.
Do keep in mind however that Monty the creator of this universe, is no longer with us, and with him gone we cannot for sure know if this is truly how he imagined RWBY going. There are so many inconsistencies with the progression of the story for me to believe that they are following his dream to the letter.
@@loukritiablack3573 Yes thank you. On top of that according to Shane's letter some parts were changed and edited long before volume 8. We may not even be looking at the original script as some concepts were added at the last minute such as the maidens
They like changed his character mid story
I love how you ask for Ironwood to continue on as a morally grey character and doesn't stray into the territory of true villainy, and then episode 1 of Volume 8 immediately dashes those hopes.
"OH NO WE DONT KNOW HOW TO KEEP NUANCE AND MAKE HIM ANTAGONISTIC AT THE SAME TIME, QUICK, MAKE HIM A MANIAC!"
Notice how all the writters are doing is taking out characters so they dont have to deal with them down the road😭
Tyrian's a good example of why sometimes, just having a simple, evil villain is the best. As long as they have a fun personality, interesting skills and a memroable design, they don't need a sad backstory or a full explanation for why they're a bastard.
He has such a presence about him, he's great...watch them destroy him 🤣🤣
Exactly, its why Neo is also so popular. She is well designed, has a simple motive and has a fun presence about her
@@key6955 plsu an air of mystery due to her many abilties, muteness and seeming loyalty to Torchwick for reasons we cna only fathom.
It's why Roman remains my favorite RWBY villain.
Heath Ledger joker
People have said this before. But Adam would have been much better if he wasn't a spited boyfriend but rather a mentor or big brother figure to Blake who felt betrayed when she abandon him and as it was stated by Blake in the early seasons.
but then you dont get internet good boy points for killing off an abusive asshole boyfriend and then having blake and yang hook off with no real build up
I agree. Adam was always more of a revolutionary type with his own mission and ideals. He shouldnt be so obsessed over Blake and is better off trying to actually accomplish his goals and to make it so Blake matters to his narrative, have her actually fight him because his goal and ideal goes against Blake's and it's not like Blake would want to just leave that issue be.
Another big problem is that RT doesnt know how to establish their characters and are for the most part inconsistent making it hard to pin point exactly who the character really is because the writing made them so inconsistent, you could literally make different characters out of the inconsistencies.
Me personal headcanon is that Adam was abducted or something and replaced by an impostor who was just absolutely obsessed with Blake for some reason.
That's apparently the only way my brain has been able to justify him becoming what he became.
He was at a time my favorite villain. But the writer to went full retard. Adam “mishandled” Taurus
Yes. Instead of being some overprotective (and creepy) bf, he should’ve been like Scar from FMA(B).
Side note: I think how Watts treats Tyrian while they work together is pretty interesting. It seems like he actually somewhat respects our favorite maniac (complimenting him more than once, calming him down, trusting in his abilities). Nice contrast to the pompous, asshole demeanor he bestows upon everyone else.
Also: I adore your section on Tyrian. 🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤
I think he sees the mirror version of himself.
While Watt's is clear of mind, forward thinking, and a meticulous planner
. Tyrion is crazy, only really cares about serving Salem not the future, and flies by the seat of his pants.
SPOILER ALERT!
Ironwood is completely gone, 1st episode of Volume 8 he straight up murdered a member of the Atlas council for speaking against him
Yep it sucks they turned him into a stereotypical Dictator
I stopped watching at volume 6 when I saw how Adam died (maybe he died in volume 7 ? I don’t remember) the first time emotionally after being ridiculed and one hit koed then killed the second time by the most empowering and brave representation of friendship/love/sismance(you won’t caught me dare touch upon the black and yellow ship, God forbid) in Blake and Yang . That and the show just straight up bored me
*Spoilers*
Ironwood 3 months later: _Literally threatens to slaughter an entire city with a nuke to save his own skin_
@@togucvinw7 try these shows instead
Re Zero
My hero academia
Zatch Bell
Umamusame pretty Derby
The wandering witch Selena
And try some of clamps works like cardcaptor sakura or xxxholic
To be fair, I'd be pretty frustrated at the council member demanding to know why I was declaring Martial Law when Satan has literally showed up with an army of darkness on my doorstep. If you can't understand this is exactly the situation Martial Law was intended to be used in, maybe you deserve to be shot.
"I hope they don't put Ironwood too far gone."
RWBY Volume 8:
Haven’t seen the episode myself but I’ve seen what he did in that episode
@@lonewolf9578 murders a council member in cold blood lol
i didn't mind it but i'm not sure why he did it all the council member did was complain.
@@spinballproduction9678 cuz the writers want him to be a villain now so they make him do evil stuff for the sake of being evil
Ep1:
Straight up shoots a guy for being angry at him
All this Ironwood goodness JUST before Volume 8 drops and they've completely flipped the "I'm evil, now" switch on him.
I know, right? I got to that section and started laughing because... just... _goddammit._
RWBY is like a beautiful trainwreck/masterclass on how to setup something that COULD be interesting, only to instead do something completely predictable and boring.
My hope is the councilman he shot isn’t actually dead cuz yano aura exists. He just shut him up. Still evil, but not as bad and the rest of the ace ops don’t look as bad still following him.
@@SigmaSyndicate try these shows instead
Re Zero
My hero academia
Zatch Bell
Umamusame pretty Derby
Fate stay night
And try some of clamps works like tsubasa Reserve chronicles or xxxholic
Here's the thing with Ironwood; he had good intentions, Qrow said he was trustworthy, he had a plan, a good plan to use the arena as a global communications hub, and he was doing the best that he could do within reason with what he had. The problem is that is was still leaning on Ozpins advice of not telling the world about Ozpin, the relics, and maidens and Salem, plus Team RWBY were basically lying to his face and going behind his back. The fact that he started taking extremes was in response to his situation and that the people he outright said he trusted lied to him. So of course hes gonna do what he believes is best, even if he is a bit compromised. The world needed to know the truth. Ozpin created this hellish situation that Ironwood is now trying to fix. Team RWBY (and the writers at RoosterTeeth) just made everything that much more difficult.
Also Tyrian is a riot. I enjoy every moment he is on screen, is insanity reminds me of Mark Hamill's Joker (Anarchy) and I too will salute if he is killed.
Ozpin didn’t create anything though.
@@BabyGirlTiny yes he did. He created the seasonal maidens, which basically act as glorified keys to the relics, he established the 4 kingdoms and schools and he basically allowed the knowledge of Salem and the original gods to fade into fairy tale while withholding the truth. He took free Choice and Knowledge away from humanity, hence the giant mess of Grimm and Salem Ironwood and everyone else has to try and stop.
The Path to Hell is paved with good Intentions. A Saying that Ozpin should've looked into, but now it seems Ironwood is well on the way to finding out.
"The world needed to know the truth."
Okay. Why? Just because it' the truth and the relics, Salem and Ozpin are there?
What exacly does that even begin to accomplish other than a step back?
@@1OtherMr the world needs to know because that is the half baked story and plot RoosterTeeth came up with after Monty's passing. It's not perfect, I dont know what Monty really had in mind for RWBY and honestly, I think at this point, Roosterteeth is flying by the seat of their pants. Its just how I viewed the entirety of V7 and the other proceeding volumes after V3.
I'm pointing things out as provided by RT, and even though I try to understand the whole point and after seeing Ironwood shoot the councilman, I dont really care anymore. I'll watch to see what happens, but after V7 where Ironwood seemed to be the only well rewritten character (my opinion), I dont have much hope. Salem can win or lose, the world can learn the truth, or stay ignorant, Oz can finally get his act together or whatever.
7:20 whaat?! Laura Bailey was in the show... what a missed opportunity 🤧
They got some pretty good mileage out of her, as far as cameos go. Her scream when Cinder breaks her aura is *bonechilling.* But yeah I’d really love if she played a character that stuck around
I mean if we want to talk missed opportunities Travis Willingham had a single line before Torchwick made his ship crash into his other ship and Monica Rial as Sienna for 5 seconds.
They prob couldn’t afford it at the time
I'm gonna have to disagree about Mercury and Emerald. I actually think that Mercury is far more redeemable than Emerald. Hear me out:
The scene in V6C9 that you said doesn't have much subtext actually does have one crucial bit of subtext: Mercury is trying _really_ hard to be evil. Violence is all he's known so he wants to embrace it, he wants to be a sadistic little shit like those around him. And with time, he convinced himself that that is who he is, but... I don't think he takes any real pleasure from his evil deeds. I think he just wants to _think_ that he takes pleasure. Summed up perfectly by Tyrian in that scene: "The world is mean, and I'm a big bad man now, just like the others!"
Emerald on the other hand... did you _see_ her smirk as she watches Tukson slowly realize that he was about to die? Love for Cinder may be her motivation, but her sadism seems far more real since, unlike Mercury, she didn't really have a reason to fake it, at least to my knowledge.
What I think the writers are doing - and I hope I'm not giving them too much credit - is a bait-and-switch: Emerald seems to be the redeemable one, but once we dive deeper we realize that, at heart, Mercury is a far better person, he's just better at hiding it.
I think the same way Mercury tries to copy those around him to appear evil, Emerald tries to copy Cinder's confidence to feel closer to her. Her introduction scene is the only time where we can observe her with a femme fatale presence (that is exactly what Cinder is suppose to have), all the other times she seems to be enjoying killing/ hurting people is because she is WITH Cinder and therefore wants to support her every choice.
IMO, The difference between Emerald and Mercury is that she found value in herself through Cinder, and idolises her for it, while Mercury is conditioned to over valuing strength due to it being the reason why he is in a permanent disadvantage to everyone else, and is afraid to be put in a position where he has to face his own weaknesses. (Also, can I just say how clever it is to give a disabled character this arc? Hats off for the writers here)
In short: just give those two lost kids a healthy parental figure and some peace, please RT, I'm begging you
@@seasustrai6547 That is a good point, though that one opening scene with Tukson really makes it hard for me to believe that Emerald is redeemable, considering Cinder wasn't around... Welp, we'll see
I love Emerald and Mercury, I hope both get redeemed.
Like Locus and Felix (Red vs Blue)
@@guicaldo7164 I wonder what review Jaune would get, personally I think he a boring piece of cardboard.
RWBY needs to understand that complex, understandable, and worldly motivations do NOT MESH with villains who seek to end the entire world, and that a tragic backstory does not explain WHY they are doing what they are doing.
The solution is easy as hell. Simply have the villains be driven by an unconditional love for Salem. After all, She was there for them at their lowest point, when no one else was. What happens to the rest of the world doesn't matter, as long as they have her. Have Salem's presence be both reverent and euphoric for them.
From there, the rest of the characters in Salem's Lot fit naturally.
Cinder Fall seeks power, not only to make her surrogate mother proud, but to emulate her.
Hazel seeks a family to replace his lost sister, and is willing to do anything for them, regardless of morality.
Tyrion is just a psychopath, but appreciates having a mother who both condones his psychotic brutality and is immune to it.
Arthur wants to demolish society, specifically Atlas, to overthrow everyone in power and see them humiliated, broken, and powerless. Such a psychotic whim makes more sense if Salem has already given him what he wants.
As it is, aside from Tyrion, and maaaaaaaybe Cinder, they all seem pretty apathetic toward Salem, aside from wanting to avoid getting murdered, by her.
So the All For One approach with Shigaraki more or less?
Someone who acts as a mentor figure for those who have no-where to go and no one to turn to in their time of need?
I'm often scared to speak so much as a critical _word_ about the handling of Adam's. Misconstrue one thing about his character and what he represents, phrase one thing poorly, you're liable to have people rip you apart, deride you as a misogynst, racist or any combination thereof.
Cannot express enough respect for your responsible analysis of Adam, great video
I got you man
I was called a tasteless asshole by the fandom because I didn't like the handling of volume 7
@@arthurida3698 I commented "I don't understand the point of shipping tbh" once and the response was enough to make me quit the site.
Case in point: Eren Denburg Niederhoffer
Literally been going around every comment chain involving Adam and just assaulting everyone with insults, and insulting everything else he can think of.
I jumped in to tell him that he shouldn’t get so worked up over a work of fiction and he reported my comment. Twice.
@@LegendPurpleDragon152 I've been seeing him on the thread too he's being very obsessive and isn't really making any arguments just saying "no" repeatedly.
@@lvlHive try these shows instead
Re Zero
My hero academia
Zatch Bell
Umamusame pretty Derby
The heroic legend of prince arslin
They way they misused Adam should be taught in writing classes.
You have your own version of Magneto ready and waiting and you still managed to blow it.
Yep. Xmen is a good example of people with super powers who are oppressed. Most mutants are basically normal people and they are scattered all over the world. Through magneto and professor x, mutants all over can find unity in working with humanity or destroying it.
@Metsarebuff 22 agree. Human faunus relations are a big part of the story. More could have been done.
magneto and adam both murder civilians...you just refuse to acknowledge adam doing it
Both Adam and magnito murder civilians
Are you literally projecting what you want onto a serial killer who murdered civilians?
Like magneto was going to in X-Men one?
Don’t get e started on the bandits. Raven and Qrow were tough enough to easily pass the entrance exams to Beacon. Yet these Bandits are about as good as Junior’s Thugs from volume I. They totally missed the mark on the bandit tribe.
To be honest I question why Raven cares about her bandit tribe. Everyone is pretty weak and they didn't seem any stronger than a white fang goon. For someone who strives to be "strong" she is surrounded by useless people under her.
@@eduardopantoja9115 There's actually a Raven vs Adam comic that explains the tribe in the show was one Raven took over after being ousted by the actual Branwen tribe.
Yep they’re nothing but jobbing losers squatting in the woods.
Wow dude. You've grown and improved so much since "The Villain Problem". Extra props for the socially responsible analysis of Adam. Cheers.
Thanks!
You mean the guy who tried to blow up a train of civilians and didn't give 2 fucks about the death of his men in volume two
@@Blizzic If only you were able to remember that Adam tried to murder a train of civilians in his very 1st trailer and in volume 2 dismissed the deaths of his men at Mount Glenn
@@eren34558 Nitpicks are nitpicks. Volume 2 is basically noncanon at this point anyways (They successfully stopped the Grimm attack on Vale, but in V3 suddenly Cinder's calling it a "colossal failure"). But hey, you farm your clout and repeat your comment.
@@liveonguitar5625 Volume 2 is non Canon?
I'm sorry that's hilarious.
Do you recall burning the candle episode where Yang spoke to Blake about her parents?
Taiyangxsummer?
I have met over a 1000 people who actively repressed that episode from their mind and memory because they did not want to talk about Yang discussing summer or the fact that summer had raised Yang.
The fact that you people are so quick to deny something exists is disturbing.
After mount Glen as bird uncle put it?
Crime stopped.
Thats what happened.
You dont get to call v2 non-canon.
Monty helped make that
The entropy joke is a whole-ass mood.
@Metsarebuff 22 I really don't get what you people are talking about because you have been making up bullshit left and write
Adam kills his boss and murders civilians.
What do you do?
Blame blake?
Adam tries to blow up a train of civilians in his trailer.
You blame blake.
Could you explain how you people never pay attention?
@Metsarebuff 22 Existentialism is like what you see in anime so many times.
I'd like to know how boku no hero academia has a midget's named mineta Whose sole purpose is to sexually harass women in complain and somehow nobody minds even though hes the type that would be a complete villain while Bakugo is considered to be heroic despite being an asshole like qrow
@Metsarebuff 22 I also want to know how people get away with projecting their desires on what they want Adam to be, and getting pissy because the writers dont give them their fantasies?
He had me concerned
lol at ironwood becoming that generic dictator who kills people who question him when his main theme was about sacrificing humanity both literally and figuratively only for him to kill a senator who essentially was just doing his job. Sure he tried to kill Ozpin/Oscar but he didn't try to kill him because Ozpin questioned his actions he sacrificed his (human)friendship Ozpin and his idealogy where you have to save everyone for his inhumane idealogy where you save who you can. it was really beautiful and was a great foil to ruby's "save everyone no matter what" idealogy that too bad the show is now changing the response to that from "you can't save everyone, we'll save who we can and if you don't like it then sit in jail until you see things my way" to "you can't save everyone so just kill shit"
I wouldn't even mind if Ironwood straight up joined Salem's side, as in like "I'll do your bidding, and in return, you'll spare Atlas" Literally doing anything he can to save his own kingdom. But no, he is just killing anyone who even questions him now. The writers are trash.
@Gameboy224 I can already tell that it's gonna end with Winter and the Ace... ops? turn against him because he's being morally bad. He's actively turning his own allies against himself now. What he's doing is stupid, full stop.
I was done with Ruby after Adam's death. I got over changing his motivation from intimidating revolutionary to Blake's evil ex pretty quickly. I hate how 5 seasons of BlackSun was flushed down the toilet for Bumblebee, but doesn't matter to the overall story. What was the last straw for me was Adam's face reveal (and season 5), the scar over his left eye was something that would have been huge for Wiess's character growth. So much so that they should have kept her a spoiled and racist little brat UNTIL she has seen that scar and realizes her family and ppl like them are responsible for the white fang's militant turn. That her life of privilege was built directly on the backs of Faunus like Adam. Making her indirectly responsible for everyone Adam has killed because her family directly created Adam.
But instead, Adam is wasted to build up a ship only a fraction of the fandom wanted. The one person Adams scar would have meant something to never got to see it. Writing this bad doesn't deserve support.
Give these shows support instead
Re Zero
My hero academia
Umamusame pretty Derby
Zatch Bell
Angels of death
Little witch academia
And try some of clamps works like cardcaptor sakura or xxxholic
@@noahwiley2846 - The only shows you recommend that I haven't seen are pretty Derby, Angels of Death, and xxxholic. I'll have to take some time to check them out. And it's been a while since I watched Zatch Bell and CC Sakura.
You have pretty solid tastes, I approve.
@@gideo5792 ah thanks one of the three that you haven't seen I highly recommend trying umamusame pretty Derby. The second season made me cry.
@@noahwiley2846 - Good to know, I've just finished marathoning Promised Neverland and that sounds right up my alley.
I don’t think Ironwood is even a villain. He is still trying to do the right thing. Team RWBY almost never faces consequences and can stay blindly optimistic without any fair reason. They want to safe all, but the goal has to be realistic. If even at Beacon not everyone could be saved, how do they want to manage to safe everyone when there is a giant whale, whose even more black than my liver? Ironwood is making the choice nobody has the stomach to make. That’s not evil. And for that reason, look at Clover and Crow
Crow was a factor Clover died. He broke his aura when there was a freaking happy go lucky murderer free wanting to fight them. Crow and Tyrian even teamed up?! And when Clover died, the guy who is loyal to Ironwood till his dead, Crow decide to screw Clovers last wish and blames Ironwood for this? Ironwood hugged even that blackbird when the met again. He gave Yang an arm for free and no thank you?? I’ll side with Ironwood any day than ungreatfull people
Yeah, Ironwood is certainly an antagonist, but never a villain.
Edit: watched the first ep of volume 8. Now he's in straight up villain territory. There was no need for what he did.
@@joyc.e.7511 I can agree on that! Team RWBY also shows some antagonist quirks sometimes :D
@@kevinrieke4901 That's very true!
Ironwoods a coward and a poor leader, but he ain't really a villian. But then again he did shoot a 14 year old farm boy.
@@jimfox1477 Yeah, people keeping hitting him without processing that they're hitting a child who was forced into all this. Or maybe they don't care. It's never. addressed. Even by Ruby.
Incredible display of maturity in not only recognizing your past faults but directly resolving them by remaking the video. Great analysis, awesome editing and good job updating in time for volume 8, keep it up!
My thoughts exactly !
I LOVE the way you break down characters so much. Your analysis of Mercury and Raven are so concise and to the point but are still filled with so much nuance. I really enjoy your writing style
Thank you! I appreciate the compliment.
Your hopes about Ironwood mirrored mine exactly. V7 made me think that he could be set up as a cool antagonist, who isn't ~evil~ but who still opposes team RWBY since they have different priorities (him stopping Salem + the end justifies the means, them saving Mantle even if it risks Salem winning).
But V8 literally shot that hope in the face so :) that's cool i guess :)
I know you said you think Watts is just okay. But I personally, LOVE HIM. Out of all the villains he's my favorite. And I think there's more to him. Then you gave credit for. Not only is he the gentlemen/scientist villain. But he's also a deal maker he has a silver tong to get people to do what he wants. Like when he made Jacques his pawn. Also he seems more open with Salem like when he interrupted the meeting with her and leo just to poke fun at Cinder. Questioning her when she said Cainder was alive. Which leads me to believe he is the second in command of the group. And if you watch the Volume 4 intro, the part were they show Salem and her team.
Watts is standing right below her. And in volume six when they show them Watts is front and center with the others behind him and Salem being above him. Again I believe showing us he is her right hand. And feel like out of all of Salem's general's he will be the one to go down last.
I like this. Most criticism try to make the show into something else. You simply look at it, and try to find the best way you can find such that the show could still be itself. The fact that you break down the characters and try to find out why they didn't deliver to you personally gives it much more weight to your arguments.
To be fair art is subjective whether the creators intended it or not.
If I understand your point about self conflict correctly, would Azula from avatar be a good example? She operates on a philosophy of fear and power instilled by Ozai but ultimately seeks love from her mother that she never received and hopes she can gain it through her fathers methods.
Azula is a wonderful example of this and many other principles of villainy
The real problem with Adam and the White Fang in general isn't just the piss poor writing. It just lacks any real nuance, and that just makes everything fall apart. You can make a story about "the oppressed becoming the oppressors," but it needs to make sense. If you don't do that then it's sloppy at best, and can say the opposite of you meant to say at worse. Honestly it's no suprise that Adam is this poorly developed, considering he was never really meant to be a character and was more of a throwaway.
Considering that Monty made unique animation between specifically Yang and Adam, that tells me he actually was meant to be a character rather than a throw away, especially considering he's supposed to match yang unlike Jr. or the twins. Besides that, I don't think the white fang was ever supposed to be a "oppressed becomes the oppressor" story when they are initially committing terrorism from the beginning. They were honestly just a group standing in opposition of the main cast and nothing else.
@@furyberserk If that was the goal of the White Fang, to just have them be a bunch of faceless mooks for our noble heroes to cut down, then I think that makes it worse than if it was just a mishandling of the "oppressed becomes the oppressor" story. They should've just had them be a generic criminal gang instead of trying to look more "nuanced" than they actually were and stapling 'violent anti-racist revolutionaire' to a group of evil redshirts.
@@ravenfrancis1476 Summary: They underestimated the unfortunate implications they put out.
X-Men did it better.
@@furyberserk so why create this entire story where they’re oppressed and subjugated to racism if they were meant to be nothing more than mindless terrorist with no story? Are you admitting that the writers are completely tone deaf and have no idea what they’re writing
And when the world needed him, he returned
“RWBY doesn’t have villain problems it has WRITING PROBLEMS” Thank you for saying that and thank you for the video
“What is there to say about Tyrian other than I love him?” Is my entire opinion of him.
You have perfectly matched up these characters with undertale/deltarune themes well done
14:27 I personally read that scene more as Adam getting his first taste of blood, and deciding he liked it. A slippery slope sorta deal.
Canonically, mankind got wiped then had the time to randomly mutate from scratch into humans while Salem idk twiddled her thumbs for 2 million years
2 million? Shouldn't it have taken a few hundred million years?
@@Enchie life didn't get wiped on remnant just humans
@@voiice1477
Again, doesn't it take humans a few hundred million years to evolve from apes?
@@Enchie pretty sure they didn't evolve. After all Faunus also just kind of showed up.
I think the implication is that all live in this world that's not Grim came from the white pond and created by the dark god's brother.
When he abandoned the world he left his pond behind to continue to produce life and EVENTUALLY humans as well. But without his guidance the pool began to make mistakes and started to mix humanity with other species which created the Faunus.
Because remember they apparently Faunus didn't exist BEFORE humanity was wiped out.
Also the fact humanity could even appear in a world with monsters implies they just kind of spawned ... since there is no way individual humans could possibly survive. They'd need to just kind of spawn as a group.
@@metazoxan2
So its like a game of Civilization, with the grimm as barbarians.
Nobody wants power if they have no intention of using it, and if there's no clear intention then it's paranoia, fearing you'll need power in the future without knowing exactly knowing why, or thanatophobia, utter fear of death. These goals are not original but find their depth in their background. An example would be Vergil in Devil May Cry, the guy is pretty aimless when you see the whole picture, also a power seeker with no clear goal beyond that, but explained by the childhood trauma of feeling too weak to save her mom. Even though he knows the only thing he really wished to used it for is long gone, he keeps seeking power in an unfulfillable goal.
Honestly, I love Hazel so much, I really hope they can do something with him properly instead of "RAH OZPIN BAD HULK SMASH". Like the way he doesnt like unnecessary death ("No body needed to die today") and cares for children (His sister, Oscar, Emerald), I hope they expand on his compassion and less on his hulk rage monster mode.
It would be interesting if they examined his hypocrisy and made it explicit that he was deep in denial to protect himself from the pain and grief of his sister's death and the weight of his own actions.
As it is, I kind of can't stand how he hates Ozpin for sending people to die while actively murdering people and causing the same grief he despises Ozpin for causing him with Gretchen. If Gretchen was killed by Grimm then why the hell is he taking orders from the seeming queen of Grimm and helping her kill massive numbers of people?
@@williamharmon4039 ugh his sister's death is so lame. A training mission? Really? Was she killed by Grimm? If so, why is Hazel working for someone who CONTROLS the Grimm? Did she go out like RWBY, Sun and Neptune v Torchwick and got herself killed? If so, what did Ozpin have to do with her death? Was she killed by criminals? Why didn't Hazel target the criminals instead of Ozpin? How did she really die?
I would've preferred if Gretchen was a maiden candidate and Ozpin's first attempt to test the aura transferring machine. The machine was a prototype and thus not as advanced as the one used on Pyrrha. Because of this Gretchen dies from the power transfer and the magic goes somewhere else. In this instance, I can see Hazel being pissed at Ozpin. Why he sided with Salem is beyond me though.
Ah yes. He cares for children.
Which is why he tried to kill Nora and Ren.
@@benjaminmcneil574 He did say "I dont want to fight you"
@@ClaraTehKitty He didn't try any harder than that.
Personally Raven would have to be the biggest disappointment for me villain wise, an its all thanks to the admittedly little but still there stuff building up the Branwen tribe as well a tribe. As an indigenous person any kind of indigenous character/topics (Whether they be real or fake) in a piece of media get me interested, and there's some actual real stuff you could dig into with the set up of things as is. But the Branwen tribe just ended up being a group of just bandits, but I guess that's what's fanfiction for (Assuming I can ever manage to get off my ass an write it)
I think the point was in a world with monsters walking around everywhere those who try to live outside of the protection of major powers don't tend to last long. As such the Branwen tribe become bandits to get what they need to survive and fight back. Both against Grim and those that obviously aren't happy to have their stuff stolen.
This could still work as a way of showing how hard it is to be independent in a world where literal monsters exist. But they never got that deep into it and mostly skimmed past it so the build up went to waste.
I loved the design of Adam and I am still ticked on how horrible his character was just tossed around
I agree with your argument about Adam, but I think another key part of the problem with Adam is that he's set up as the ultimate leader of White Fang. Sure, technically Sienna's higher, but Adam's the one calling all the shots, and he's the one most identified with the face of White Fang. Adam's negative character traits wouldn't be quite as problematic if he was more of a "mid-boss" - a key admin overseeing a good portion of White Fang, but not the head leader.
With that sort of set-up, Adam would initially be what we see of the White Fang and be the primary antagonist in that sector, but as the story progressed his role would be supplanted by a leader like Sienna, who then becomes the main antagonist driving the White Fang. This leader would be a radical and revolutionary, but have a more well-rounded personality, where we understand and empathize with their motives even if the justification for their means is up for debate.
Instead, Sienna only has a brief appearance before getting usurped by Adam, who again takes over White Fang. So we never get to see a White Fang leader with a more balanced character.
U mentioned The Promised Neverland and I immediately knew who u were taking about. If u love anime I HIGHLY recommend u watch it. It is an amazing experience
honestly by the end of season 7, Ironwood seemed like the mc, while the main group+ozpin are the antagonists.
Correction: at 15:20 you mention that the writers made this mess before RWBY was even a show, however there is considerable evidence that the plot of RWBY was altered significantly after Monty's passing (for example, the changes to Jaun's motivations and how Pyra was supposed to die or Sun getting written out because he was hard to animate). Up to the end of Volume 3, based purely on what we had seen to that point, Adam's anger with Blake could have been over what he viewed as abandoning a just cause and subsequently joining the enemy, which would be tied deeply to his emotional investment in Blake from their time together. Even him oneshotting Yang but ultimately not killing either of them is murky enough from a character standpoint to have a lot directions it could go. It is entirely possible that Adam was supposed to be redeemed, or that someone else was planned to take over the Fang and cast him down after he threw in too deeply with the Grim and stopped representing the interests of the Faunis (Blake herself maybe?), but we have all seen quite clearly the capacity RT has for character writing or planning and executing satisfying subplots.
Edit: wrong timestamp
Still watching, but I wanna make a quick comment on Adam. I know some people don't like the idea of minorities being the bad guys (personally I think that's a load partially because it implies that just because someone is oppressed, they're automatically exempt of all wrongdoing, but not really the point), but Adam honestly could've been a really good Magneto type character, but instead we got the hot mess we got.
If I had a dollar for every freaking time I've heard comparisons of Adam and Magento...
I seriously wouldn't know what to do with that much money.
@@benjaminmcneil574 Well the comparison works because they both follow a similar archetype and Magneto is the best and most famous example in fiction. Mags is a Holocaust survivor who became a Mutant supremacist and Adam was a victim of Faunus oppression who became a Faunus supremacist and terrorist.
@@s3studios597 Magneto's also a better character. He's an Anti-Villain... But that concept is too hard to grasp for the CRWBY
@@themysteriousmista4922 I'm well aware of that, and that's the sad part. He could've been so much more, but RT can't write serious topics for shit. Hell, he didn't even necessarily be a Magneto. He could've been something else entirely that still made sense. The thing that really pisses me off about it (if true) is that they supposedly used the excuse of being white for why they couldn't properly write racial issues.
@@benjaminmcneil574 I wouldn't know what to do with only a single dollar bill. What the fuck only costs a dollar nowadays?
Puts clip of Regina George in antagonist video.
me: puts a like on the video immediately.
Adam had so much potential. After Monty died... RIP, I feel like they changed him because he could have been redeemed if you change some things. Adam wants justice but how he obtain that justice is just such as killing. I believe Blake could have changed him through a TEAM effort. Honestly I would support the white fang
Here's the thing about Ironwood I don't agree with... I don't see him as a villain. He's being pragmatic in the face of unrealistically idealistic heroes. This is the guy who gave Yang a new arm no questions asked, stood up for Weiss during a charity event for Vale when everyone was talking shit about Vale, tries to get communications back online and what happens? Ruby and co decide to ignore all the good he's done for them in prior seasons, lie to him when he flat out said he trusts them and proves it by showing them his plans for Amity, then YANG (and Blake) of all people betrays him to Robyn Hill. Yang who is literally wearing his kindness on her arm! In all honesty, I see Ironwood as the unsung hero of Vol 7 and teams RWBY and JNPR have basically become just as bad as the villains they are trying to stop, because they are unwilling to compromise on Ruby's unrealistic and fatally idealistic and fairytale-like 'save everyone' mentality. The real world doesn't work like that. Sometimes sacrifices need to be made... Especially when a who knows how many years old witch is flying towards your base on a giant fucking whale, and she fucking TELLS YOU she'll be there any minute!
The problem is, Ruby is in charge. She shouldn't be. She's the youngest person in the entire group for one. For another they have a Qrow, someone whose known James for YEARS! Instead of him taking point, Blake, who has her first real conversation with Ruby ever outside of Vol 1 I think tells Ruby they'll back whatever play she makes. Like, is it just me, or does none of this make sense? I don't even hate Ruby as a character its just... she's so damn annoying at times! Like, how can I put this? She's never had sacrifice anything to get to where she is. Sure her mom died, but... other than that, she hasn't really lost much. She got into Beacon two years early, was made the leader of a team of girls two years her senior, and finds out she has magical eyes that can kill Grimm... It just feels like a lot of this was just handed to her and she hasn't really had to overcome all that much. People will probably say, "But Penny and Pyrrha died!" My rebuttal would be, "Yeah, and Penny came back and look how 'excited' she was to see her friend she was dead again."
Another argument would be, "Well, she has to work to control her Silver Eyes."
My response "Good! she has to actually work on screen to get good at something for once!"
Lastly the Ace Ops fight. Team RWBY should not have won that fight. Hands down, they should've gotten their asses handed to them. On silver platters. Not the least reason of which was because just moments prior Ruby was talking with Salem and learned she had a hand in her mother's death. How Ruby hasn't figured this out earlier when she was talking with Maria about her Silver Eyes, and Ruby flat out says Salem is hunting down people with Silver Eyes. No, Salem has to admit it. Ruby has a breakdown, and moments later she taunting Ace-Ops who they got training from for all of a month... Ace-Ops who've been training together for years? Longer? I dunno, but I do know they shouldn't have beaten by a bunch of kids... the fact they were is just bad writing.
I could go on, with how they turned Adam Tarus from this badass into a jilted lover that get's killed by Yang (who was suffering from PTSD right up until the point where she MEETS the cause of said PTSD, that's not how PTSD works CREWBY!) and Blake, Sun got shipped off to Side Material Land, I mean Vacuo so Bumblebee could be shipped harder than Naruto and Sasuke ever were, even though Sun spent an entire volume with Blake. And don't even get me started on Oscar and how obvious it is that Ozma is slowly taking over his soul... So much has gone wrong in RWBY lately, but honestly Ironwood shooting Oscar was NOT one of them in my mind.
P.S. Sorry for the rant, I just needed to get this out.
Totally agree. To bad the writers made him evil cuz reasons.
And then he shoots an unarmed council man in the face.
@@RJLiams Yes, it's called a 'jumping the shark' moment. One where CREWBY completely Assassinates Ironwood's character, because he 'must' be shown as evil because he opposes our 'morally correct' heroes. There's is a difference between what is morally correct and what is pragmatic however. Ironwood flat out says it not feasibly possibly to get everyone on Atlas in time, and protect it from Salem, which caused this whole mess in the first place. What is Team RWBY ORNJ's 'plan' at the start of season 8? To STILL try and do both! Proving that their idealism has blinded them to what is actually possible for a dozen or so people to achieve. Judging by the into to this season they are going to hopefully going to fail epically at their plan and realize James was right the entire time.
God I hope so. It would give weight to decision making that has consequences that has been horribly absent from the show. Imo, the remainder of Team JNPR should die to really set in stone the poor decision making the "Heroes" have made up to this point. Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but the cast needs to experience loss that was directly caused by their choices. They'll have to learn to cope with that then move forward as best they can and change, hopefully for the better, as a result.
@@JaesWasTaken Indeed Jaes, Team RWBY especially the 'R' in said team need a big 'L' so they can do some growing up. I'm gonna be honest though, I'm pretty sure Jaune isn't going to die. It's not just because I'm a fan of his either. It's because Jaune is going through the Monomyth, or the 'actual' Heroes Journey. He heeded the call to adventure in getting into Beacon, got aid from a mentor in Pyrrha which he lost,. I'd say he's about halfway through all the steps at the moment. The step 'I think' he's on ironically involves him almost dying or a confrontation with his father... whichever one seems more likely at this point. Either way, that doesn't protect Ren and Nora whose relationship is not only on the rocks at this point, but with the Intro and The Hound potentially being synonymous with the Big Bad Wolf but also possibly Fenrir from Norse Mythology with its ability to rapidly shapeshift... Yeah one of them might be dying.
I share your exact opinions when it comes to ironwood. Mainly because volume 7 made him the most well written character in the series and absolutely carried the volume. And the only villain besides Adam to really have a motivation that can people can actually debate on. Also 0:45 is pretty much my biggest problem with the show
What did you think about him in volume 8?
@@noahwiley2846 Fucking hated what they did to my man Ironwood. I thought Adam's derailment was bad but this was a whole new level of dumb.
The made the man so unescarily and out of his way evil for no reason and I also hate how team rwby almost unanimously think they aren't responsible and think they are in the right. Like morally grey does exist people.
Everything after Salem's defeat was trash as well since Ironwood has literally no reason to be evil yet they decide to have him needlessly put innocents in danger. We can't even say this is semblance because no one acknowledges it. So when he needlessly kills Jacque another now wasted character and fight Winter I'm just like "how did we get here?"
Doesn't help that in Ironwood's mind he basically dies alone by himself thinking he's failed with the series trying to make me feel bad for Emerald and Cinder over the guy who was trying to save the world. So glad I don't support this show directly.
@@DonniedrakoE yeah when winter left him for dead dispit everything he's done for everyone else and the way the show kept treating him like he's doing it for selfish reasons was too far. I haven't really watched the show since volume 6 and only kept up with people I know and I'm glad did with stuff like this that happened
Fun fact: CFVY beat the ever loving **** out of Cardin and the gang in the comics
Where can I find this? I need the satisfaction of something actually happening in the story.
@@tailweaverweasel4286 I think in the Blake Manga, it’s a chapter about team Blake realizing team RWBY accepts her
"Merc and Ems story arc could be pretty cool... or it could suck."
No, let's just be real here. It's GOING to suck.
Yup. Let's not fool ourselves.
I think I've realised why I like the earlier volumes so much more than the recent ones- RWBY is great at building things up, but when it comes time to show off the results, its apparent that this essay was written minutes before the deadline.
It's been a while since I heard the lovely laugh of Flowey the Flower
This.... turned oddly nihilistic every now and again. lol
Yes, but optimistically nihilistic! That's the key :D
@@Blizzic You are not wrong.
😶
Having seen your previous vid on RWBY’s antagonists/villains, you’ve definitely improved since then.
Smashing job, here’s your 1-UP brick!
I laughed at "abandits them"
It was a good joke lol
But in seriousness, this was a really good video. It was both entertaining and educational on breaking down these characters. Great work!
When it comes to abuse victims who are also harmful to others, I do think it's really important to remember that while pitying them is all well and good, and that the abuse they suffered helps us understand why they do what they do, it isn't an excuse for what they do. People are still responsible for their own actions. This all gets murkier when talking about a fictional character ofc, since they aren't harming real people. But when you relate the fictional character back to real life, it's important to reiterate this. Too often folks in real life excuse or enable more awful behavior from others bc of things like this. It's a vicious cycle, but there are still choices involved.
"Ruby, who is representative of all that is good and pure in the world" I laughed so fucking hard after I heard this!
32:09 Actually the "Did you kill her too part" is to do with the old Raven that Tai described and not Vernal as her body was not in the same place of where Raven looked.
They were talking about the spring maiden. Raven had to kill one to get their powers.
Talks about Cinder:
Motivacion.... and Power in the same sentence. oh god
DMC VIBES INTENSIFEIES
The fact that cinder now has a backstory is funny
How is it
@@eduardopantoja9115 its awful
@IMABANANA64 it is but it actually kinda addresses his point
Her "....and I refuse to starve " comment seems to come from how abused she was when she was adopted as a teen
Both her adoptive mom and sisters treated her like garbage and Cinder even had a shock collar on her
Salem has her hoarding the Maiden powers which are the Vault keys
Despite not having total freedom and being under Salem's thumb she has more control over her life than she's probably EVER had
She refuses to give it all up
There's a good way and a bad way to write a character/antagonist that wants power, if you want to see a good way then look at Vergil from DMC, if you want to see a bad way then look at Cinder.
I think we should just call it the Rooster Teeth Problem.
One thing with adam during his last fight was when yang block his attack with her new arm i was like wtf that doesnt make sense
There was so much more bullshit...like moonslice being far weaker than before
I very much believe that there is some fuckery going behind the scenes of RWBY with RoosterTeeth. After a certain point, shit just started derailing and I really believe they are not following Monty Oum's dream to the letter. There is just so much inconsistency going on and it really smells like studio interference, especially with Adam, his character just took a nose dive from a morality standpoint.
You said it yourself, the show has an exaggerated view of morality, but that doesn't mean that morally grey characters can't exist within it. I think that they just took that sentence and just ran with it and are now using it as an excuse. They just can't write morally grey and this is why we only see the two extremes.
Also, can I say, fuck this whole "you left him" spiel Willow gives Weis? Weis, while a big sister and thus responsible at some degree for her brother, especially since Winter bounced, is still a victim herself. It is not her place to fix her family, it's her parents' and in this case Willow's. Willow is the less sucky adult in the equation, she married the asshat she married and it is her responsibility to take care of her children when that started going south. Weis, could have done so much as a child herself with little to no power. What could she have done, really? I'm not saying that that diminishes anything about Whitely's character, I completely agree with your analysis. But I have such a hatred for that scene.
What's studio interference?
This was thoroughly enjoyable and though you insist you're an idiot who isn't good at this stuff, I personally think that this level of analysis is the level I strive to for my own RWBY analysis videos. You were articulate and thorough and your points flowed well with each other, and you never failed to convey your point in an elegant way. Well done! Subscribed!
Thank you, I appreciate your support!
Ah, this seems like the perfect place to talk about this idea:
RWBY has three characters who have some kind of similarity to Vergil from Devil May Cry. Those characters are Adam, Raven, and Cinder. Adam being his design and fighting style, Raven being the "shitty twin" and the portals, and Cinder being the inhuman lust for power.. But somehow, the three of them combined don't even amount to a third of his likability.
I disagree with you, both RWBY and Cordvin were both idiots in that situation. RWBY could have simply called Winter or Ironwood for permission, let Weiss go on her own, or have Qrow go with her in bird form or even simply fly to Ironwood in bird form. They were many other solutions besides stealing an ship which they should know could result in creating negative emotions. Though bringing out an mech just to kill an bunch of teenagers is dumb.
@@Sephajinami - Agree with your first point.
- Letters being intercepted by Weiss family or Salem agents is just headcanon, it's never mentioned by any of the characters for an reason not to do it.
- What in the world is Weiss family going to do? Take her by force? She has one of the most powerful semblances, she could take them all down before they could do anything.
- Once again bribing other huntsmen is nothing but headcanon as its not an reason used by the characters as an reason not to have Weiss go on her own. And considering the Ace Ops were the best huntsmen in Altas I don't think they would be much of an threat.
- Qrow could have just flow to Ironwood or go with Weiss in the form of an bird in case something happened.
@@Sephajinami He said in case it got intercepted, there was no guarantee it would be.
All huntsmen are in the hands of Ironwood in Altas. Thus its unlikely her father would be able to do that.
He was depressed, until Ruby gave him an pet talk and encouraged him, if Ruby did the same thing there would be no problem.
Finally, none of the reasons you give our stated by the characters, thus it would be headcanon.
Tell that to the writers of the series.
Just sayin.
@@Sephajinami Why couldn't they call Winter or Ironwood once they were in Atlas? World wide communication is down, not local and we've seen that it's up within the individual kingdoms otherwise scrolls would be useless and they are used constantly.
Bribing Hunters? Who are they going to get, Atlas? They all work for the military under ironwood. You already pointed out worldwide comms are down and you're assuming that they are like mercenaries in any case or any threat.
The old lady was power mad and senile but she was loyal to ironwood and ironwood prefers people that he can control.
If you actually watched and observed the characters you'd learn that but instead you are looking for faults that don't exist
This is kind of a late comment but imo Salem is like the lich from adventure time. She’s got infinite time on her hands because eventually she will win. But her single mindedness just reminds me of the “you’re so evil it’s boring” line Finn said towards the lich. They’re both inevitable and both evil to the core, the lich just has more gravitas and better monologues.
I just disappointed what those writers made to Cinder, Adam & Raven. 😭
Miles and Kerry arnt amazing writers
RIP Roman Torchwick, you were too good a character for this show.
He's in Valhalla now, enjoying a Barbeque and Beer with Ironwood and Watts, waiting for his dear Neo to join him away from the dissolute of Remnant.
I saw the transition to Salem and my first thought was let’s be honest she’s not a villain she’s barely a character. A villain has to do something and Salem doesn’t
The villains in my hero academia have does more than Salem
Whitley isn't a villain. He is a victim.
This is a genuinely great essay, props to you
Who needs villains when the protagonists are forced to be as distracted and self-destructive as these ones.
Here we go again the lying bullshits
@@eren34558 sure can you tell me what part he lied about cause all I see in your comments is vague insults
I love that you used Undertale and Deltarune music for this video. It also made me realize how much better Undertale/Deltarune antagonists are written compared to this series.
emerald's plot tried to break my heart, while ironwood's tore it from my chest and squished it under it's boot
"Power isn't what I mean when I talk about motivation"
Vergil from devil may cry wants to know your location
raven abandits her "family" of bandits!
yes!
I haven't watched a single episode of Rwby but I love videos like this. Your breakdowns are so interesting to listen to and really makes me wanna write up some villains to capitalize on the ideas Rwby fumbled
Well with what we know now of Salem's goals, that clears that bit up
As someone who commented on the first video, i thought I'd through in my two cents once again on two of the villains discussed: Adam and Cinder.
First Adam: I feel much of the critique against Adam is a mis-reading of the character as a "Representative of freedom fighters", but I feel this is inaccurate. From the first volume the White Fang is presented as toxic even to other Faunus:
"Lisa: Thank you, Cyril. In other news, this Saturday's Faunus Civil Rights protest turned dark when members of the White Fang disrupted the ceremony. The once peaceful organization has now disrupted..."
“Stupid holier-than-thou creeps who use force to get whatever they want.”
-Sun, to Blake about the White Fang
The White Fang in the show do not represent revolutionaries (That's Ghira, Blake and Sienna to a lesser extent), but rather a CORRUPTION of that revolution. They're more analogous to the Taliban. Claimin to stand for an oppresed group and then using that position to justify their initial oppression (Taliban initially enjoyed enormous good will from Afghans weary of the corruption, brutality, and the incessant fighting of Mujahideen warlords.).
They can also be compared to groups like Antifa or PETA who pretend to stand for one thing while enforcing the opposite (They claim to want to end opression while in reality, THEY just want to be the oppressors) and ultimately end up doing more harm to their cause.
Even in the real life Black Lives protests, people causing riots and destruction of property has been so harmful to the message and cause of Black Lives that actual White Supremacists groups have been posing as protesters and using the EXACT SAME TACTICS the White Fang employs as a way to discredit the protests:
acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-violence-in-america-new-data-for-summer-2020/
Ironically, they can also be seen as similar to the original Nazi Party. The first (self-proclaimed) National Socialists rose to power at a time when Germany was treated as the world's bootheel. They became popular because they claimed to care for and protect a country that, at the time, felt abused and oppressed, of course by the time the people of Germany learned what the party REALLY wanted, it was too late.
Adam in particular feels analogous to many an abusive cult-leader who claims to care for the mistreated but use their pretense of "protector" to justify their own mistreatment.
Also, in the scene of self-defence, what takes the action from self-defence to needless violence is the gap in power between Adam and a normal person. With his Aura, semblance and sheer speed, Adam had hundreds of ways to instantly neutralise the attacker without killing them. Making his use of explicitly LETHAL force into over-kill (Like if Superman used his heat-vision to melt a muggers face instead of their weapon)
Essentially it's
Racists.
Normal people.
Revolutionaries.
Faux-revolutionaries like Adam's White Fang.
THE ACTUAL PROBLEM.
The real problem here I feel, is that the White Fang has no opposite. The story I think RWBY wants to tell is one of cruel oppressors and violent extremists posing as liberators, with the actual liberators having to fight BOTH. Those who oppose their goal, and those who corrupt it.
The problem is that aside from racist assholes, we don't see real direct oppression on screen, which makes the story feel unbalanced (In fact, some critics feel that the Faunus AREN'T oppresed and that characters like Blake are fighting over nothing). The heroes spend more time fighting the extremists, so it looks to some like they're siding with the oppressors. If the anti-Faunus crimes of people like Jacques Schnee were given more attention and RWBY had to fight both to free the Faunus AND fight against Adam trying to use the Faunus to become a tyrant himself, it would be a much more balanced portrayal.
In fact, this seemed to be the direction in the "Black" short. Blake was fighting against the SDC's abuse, but opposed the murder of innocent civilians. This is how the show can support revolution while opposing extremism.
Of course in this day and age, the politics has become "My side is the good guys and everything we do is justified because we're the good guys!"
So the show would still be blasted for DARING to try and make the statement that you can also have bad people in a revolution (Like Bioshock Infinite was)
This post is already pretty big, so I'll talk about Cinder in a seperate post.
This would be a pretty good write up if Adam didn't do a sudden 180° from his early volume characterisation where he doesn't care that Blake left and how he later comments that Blake leaving him was the worst pain he ever felt. Seriously dude, I somehow think that being forced into slavery, being branded, losing an eye and being treated as subhuman most of your life would be slightly worse than a bad breakup with your girlfriend. He also dies like an idiot to a girl that had PTSD caused by him until she actual fought him.
Loved that tyrian section, glad I’m not the only one that really likes him for how he is.
The way Arthur ate Cinder the fuck up with that monologue about her being a pissy little bitch who thinks she deserves everything when she actually deserves nothing while being held LIKE 10 STORIES OFF THE GROUND ON THE BRINK OF DEATH makes him the best villain next to Neo and Tyrian
Arthur joined an immortal witch's evil chaos cult, betrayed his kingdom and helped uproot the world...because sempai didn't choose his project over "that fat imbecile". The rant is great until you realize it's completely hypocritical. At least she feels wronged by needless suffering. Something understandable. "You think you're entitled to _everything_ just because [...you're slimfit and think you're smarter than a chubby dude who built an android with a literal soul]"
I asked out my crush he said yes. Thanks Blizzic.
Congrats! 🎉🎉🎉
Congratulations!
I asked mine out and she said we've been together for a year
As for the cinders motivation for power thing this may be a theory of sorts (just commenting cuz I just had this thought while playing DMC4 special edition (I’m excited for the special edition of five)) what if the reason cinder seeks power is because of a certain feeling of powerlessness she felt at one point early on in childhood such as what had happened to Vergil. Vergil seemed to seek power to prevent the same event from happening to him again but it essentially got twisted to a degree. To that extent perhaps something similar had happened.
I like ironwood but as an antagonist not a villain
I agree RWBY has writing problems but I feel like a part of that is how many villains or antagonists that are thrown into the mix. Literally like saying how many people want to throw their hat into the ring of evil in one show. Like I wouldn't mind a few minor antagonists along with the main current antagonist (Like Roman, Emerald and Mercury being minor ones compared to Cinder in Vol. 1) and having some of those minor ones either becoming a bigger threat later on when the current one is resolved with, or having their arc come to an end (like Roman's arc despite the fact that I feel like he had been taken out just a bit too soon imo.)
SOME of the writing is actually pretty good, like Ironwood's character development and where he could end up in the future as it comes. It makes it much more compelling than how they wrote Cinder. With Cinder, they really fell flat with her writing. Yes she wants revenge on Ruby, but that was a motivation that was given to her after Vol. 3 ended. Her character could be written better than it has been. I feel like fans that write fanfiction can do a better job of writing Cinder than the actual show writers can.
As for lionheart.....yeah spot on with him being a pawn. A shame though, seeing as he could have been written completely differently. He could have that cowardly side at first but when faced head on about where his morals lay by oscar(ozpin) and the crew, he could have had a change of heart and display courage much like the character he was based off of. A shame that they wasted such a good potential on him.
I could go on and on about the other characters here, but I honestly feel like RWBY needs to be rebooted with better writing. The first like....one or two volumes are fine the way they are....maybe with a few tweaks with characters to refine things....but otherwise the rest needs to be rewritten. The episodes about the atrophy (i think that is how it is spelled?) grimm however are not that bad and can stay as they are. There is a lot about this series that have flaws and plot holes big enough to swallow an entire town if combined together....not all of this show has bad qualities.
I thought Salem wanted the gods to come back, see humanity still fighting and have them destroy the world so she can finally die. I mean, she never says that, I just assume that. She already has the grim, she doesn't need the relics. The only thing the relics could do for her is the god summoning.
Nice video, and thank you for introducing me to Neverland. Watched the first episode and it's got me hooked.
:D
Sad thing: Not one villain in RWBY (except maybe Torchwick) actually works:
1. Salem, the big immortal bad, does nothing. She sits back and let her lackeys do the job more bad than good, but does she even need lackeys? She can walk through anything Remnant can throw at her, the worst that could happen would be a fight with Ozpin; but with a much superior reviving factor than him, it shouldn't be much of a problem. There is no reason for her to be so passive and that is for an evil overlady just bad.
2. Cinder: Want to be powerful but acts like a brat and doesn't learn anything. The 'doesn't learn anything' archetype can carry you only for a short amount of time, since especially in a world like what Remnant tries to be, stupidity gets you killed. Cinder surviving that long without being killed is just downright stupid. Especially since her motivation of killing Ruby doesn't exist in that one moment, where she actually CAN kill Ruby.
3. Hazel: At the moment he is stupid. Yes, he lost his sister. And yes, maybe Salem turned his grief into hate against Ozpin, but here's the kicker: It doesn't make sense for him to team up with Salem regardless. At least, not initally. He basically kills huntsman, letting other families go through the exact same situation that he was in. He shows no remorse or even understanding about this situation. He may be capable of becoming an understandable villain later on, but as of now, he is just a stupid person.
4. Tyrrian: The only villain which reasoning makes sense given his insanity. But just an insane nutjob doesn't make an interesting character.
5. Watts: Ah, yes. The technological genius that hated that his idea wasn't taken. Like Tyrian his motivation makes sense, making him one of the few understandable villains. And the funny thing is: he was right. Since Penny, a military robot, turned against her superior (Ironwood), she should be considered a failure from a military development standpoint (I'm not talking about a human/philosopical standpoint just to be clear).
6. Ironwood and Corodvin: Not villains! Yes, Cordovin is racist and full of herself, but it is Team RWBY that forces her hand. They steal the aircraft and try to go behind her back. And while her not wanting to let Team RWBY go with Weiss, you have to remember, that Yang is seen guilty of attacking a non fighting person while Blake has ties to the White Fang over her family. Cordovin and her lackeys aren't portrayed as good soldiers, but in this moment she does her job.
And the same goes for Ironwood. It is Ruby and her team who lie to him. Yang tells a secret operation to a woman that steal from said operation. Team JNR and Oscar can't defend the relic, Penny betrays him after obtaining the maiden powers out of need by siding with Ruby (even though he made her building and her rebuild possible) etc. That guy has every right to be angry at Ruby and her companions. And that Qrow want to make him responsible for Clover's death, even though Robin attacked at the air craft and he himself allied with a mad person he knows doesn't hesitate to kill (who almost killed him just a few Volumes earlier) is just bad writing.
7. Raven doesn't make sense. She wants to be safe, but take the maiden power. She doesn't kill Salem's agent who knows that she has said powers (or at least doesn't check that Cinder is dead), is a trained huntress but doesn't seem to train her "family" so that they are easily defeated by a huntress in training, even though they have the numeral advantage. I mean, how is it that this tribe is so feared, when there seem to be only two good fighers, one of which is a trained huntress and a maiden.
8. Neo and Emerald only hang on Cinder's coattail without having a purpose of being characters beside that. Same could be said about Mercury, but he has at least a solid backstory.
9. Jacque Schnee is someone I can't really say if he is a villain. Yes, he is an a****le, but in regards of him being racist and an evil business man, the show doesn't show us much of this. We hear that he abuses Faunus, but then we are told that he build them homes etc. We are told that his company run another shop out of business, but did he do that through shady practices? Or couldn't that shop keep up with the development of the market? With the scraps the show gives us it's like they want us to believe, that being a successful businessman alone makes you an evil person.
10. Adam: Everything is said. Adam who could have been a gray character is evil for stepping up against oppression. Once more the show tells us one ting, but looking deeper shows that it doesn't work. He is evil for killing in self defense? No, that doesn't make him evil. He is evil for fighting against oppression? Once again, no. Especially since we are told to belief, that faunus are these super oppressed people. If he was a faunus supremalist then yes, his actions are evil. But that would make Blake also part supremalist and since she is a heroine that can't be.
TLDR: Roosterteeth can't write decent villains. The best villains in RWBY are the simpler types (fanatic mad person, intelligent engineer who thinks nobody respect his ideas, etc.). Everyone with a little depth doesn't work because RWBY want us to the them as evil, even though the world of Remnant would paint them more in a grey light that need much more exploration than what the show is giving us.
My hero academia villains are a great example of good villains
Just hearing this today is so sad. He deserves half of the good ending than other antagonist.
They thought Adam's branding mark would justify more than it did lol
It would have had we saw it volumes ago or with Weiss present. The White Fang was never handled well.
I could parody an ERP video with Adam. "The coolest things about you were straight up abandoned two white boys took a sword and they fucked up your canon".
@@Violent_Wolfen I wanted a flash back where little spoiled baby Weiss did it but didn't understand what she was doing, like 4 or 5 y.o, until it was too late. So then she repressed the memory. But yeah atleast have her reaction
The random spouts of existential terror are funny
I really wish Adam had fought with Weiss to be honest. Since you know she is the daughter of the person who made the scar in Adam's life. The scar on his face is literally from her father's company. It would be cool if Adam blame Weiss for her father action and she had to fight him.
If I remember correctly Cardins team got their asses kicked by CFVY, this was mentioned by Velvet talking to Blake in the Manga, though since not many people actually cared that much about the manga it's understandable that you wouldn't have known about that
I hate they made ironwood a villian team rwby where in the wrong they lied to him and broke what trust he had left
Yeah. Sadly, ""Team RWBY is NEVER wrong" is something the writers seem determined to enforce throughout the show and anyone who even questions them is turned into a villain.
I mean, they pretty much killed an entire Kingdom. They're damn terrorists by this point.
I definitely would have preferred if they dropped the abuse angle of Adam's character and wrote him as a chaotic neutral. Evil enough to try and kidnap Weiss to hold her hostage and not think about cutting off Yang's arm, heroic enough to try and save the Faunus of Mantle when Ironwood threatens to blow them up. It would have been cool to see how he interacts with Blake, neither truly wants to hurt the other but Adam keeps going after Weiss and the schools, and Blake keeps getting in the way and it's annoying for all parties involved.
Weiss: "What are you doing here?"
Ironwood: "Ruby texted me and said Mantle got hurt. So I brought a nuke!"
Ruby: "Why?"
Ironwood: "Mantle loves nukes-"
Huh....if the show was written better vernal could have had a mother daugther relationship with raven due to ravens guilt of abondoning yang...
I hate the big villian because of how they made her hair. It makes her head huge and thus makes her arms look comically small. She isn't a towering elegant seductive beauty with the means to destroy the planet, she's an angry short and stubby over-hyped villain. Adam should have been more meaningful instead of just angry/hornboy. Neo is the best because it's hard to screw up a character that doesn't speak.
Holy mackerels that's a really good backstory for hazel props man great video keep it up
Thanks, I appreciate your support!