Je pense que karajan est le plus grand chef d'orchestre du 20 ieme siècle c'est phénoménal j'apprécie énormément sa concentration et son travail c'est extraordinaire j'aime
El resultado tímbrico que extrae el maestro CK en la pequeña muestra sonora de la IV de LvB es grandioso, Su comunicación gestual con la orquesta y sus matizadas indicaciones dibujadas en el aire, circulan en fluido diálogo con respuestas sensoriales que conmueven a la contagiada audiencia. Bravo!
Kleiber and von Karajan lived in a state of mutual respect, admiration, and escape. CK once referred to von K as an "ocean liner among dolphins". He was fascinated by the way von K produced sound.
It's always a great source of merriment for me to see Herr Kleiber ignoring the usual German society rules against smiling in public. Clearly, he was filled with joy at producing such amazing sounds. I only wish he had spent a bit more time doing so, preferably with cameras rolling, and a bit less time escaping to his vacation cottage in Slovenia. I can't begin to imagine what sorts of inner demons he must have been facing, however, I always did feel for him, and admired the consistently exceptional quality of his work on the not so frequent occasions when he actually did conduct.
Good that you could judge everything, from Kleiber to german people, how much time Carlos you allow him to spent in his "vacation cottage in Slovenia" , how the cameras have to film what they film, and how much concerts M. Kleiber should have given to your smart ears .....
this video is ximply extraordinary - superb - fantastic - marvelous - something like being in heaven with angel karajan and angel kleiber ocnducting the souls playing isntruments - majestic - thanks for existing my friend andfor up´loading such a treasure. itt is apure diamond of music.
Wondering if this conversation ever happened: "Maestro Von Karajan, what is it like to be the greatest conductor in the world?" He responded: "I don't know, ask Carlos Kleiber." I have lots of respect for both---but Karajan did acknowledge Kleiber and both were friendly in life---distinctly different in approach but able to corral sounds and performance unlike any others, in my opinion.
Was Kleiber dirigiert hat - es war leider nicht viel - geriet einfach perfekt. Wer Kleiber einmal entdeckt hat, soviel kann ich definitiv versprechen, kommt nicht wieder von ihm los! Er führt Musik in eine neue Dimension.
@@thomaskunze8196 Auf jeden Fall! Um es mit der bildenden Kunst zu vergleichen: Es gibt Dirigenten, die zeichnen. Manche malen. Ich finde, Kleiber hat die Musik geformt oder modelliert wie kein anderer.
Well, I can't completely agree with you, but I can agree with you on that Carlos Kleiber's movements perfectly embody the music amongst conductors I have seen so far!!! lol (Another words, I agree with you.) I'm so fascinated by his conducting and interpretation but I'm sure you understand that those words are not satisfyingly describing what he delivers to us.
Kleiber is not a wannabe at all, he is a great Maestro, one of the best conductors ever, just to mention a few: Mahler (as conductor), Toscanini, Furtwängler, Bernstein, Karajan, Haitink, Abbado, Celibidache, Giulini, etc. and of course Kleiber is among them. To give the adjective "wannabe" doesn't make Karajan look greater, but makes you look as an "not very well informed dilettante". Consider to appreciate his performances not comparing to any other conductor, his art speaks for him.
Celibidache in that list? Thoroughly overrated, never understood the fascination with him, given his normally slower than usual tempi. Bernstein of course was the king with his over 17 minute finale of the Pathetique...
@@MusikPiratCH Oh yes Rattle, a very good conductor indeed...but not a great one..imho. I note on the lists mentioned here that Karl Bohm isn't included. Perhaps not one of the most charismatic conductors compared to some but generally regarded as one of the greatest conductors of the Twentieth Century and a supreme interpreter of Wagner, Strauss, Mozart, and Berg. His recording of Beethoven's 'Pastoral' is still one of the best ever done...inmho.
This is an excellent posting displaying two very different approaches to Beethoven. The wonder is that everyone on this thread shares opinions about one or both conductors but NOONE seems able to describe their difference based on the music-making in this actual video. To me there is a world of difference between the sound of Karajan's Beethoven and Kleiber's. The two conductors come from different planets! This video proves it. Listen! You will hear the rich, heavy, smoothed out texture of Karajan. And from Kleiber you will hear clarity of texture, dynamism of momentum, variation within unity throughout the piece. Karajan is so much more homogenised. No judgements, just describing the difference my ears hear. Can anyone else hear this? If not, what difference do YOU hear?
I totally agree with you on this. To me Karajan is like a painter who uses thick paint, he likes to hear how notes sound together, the his texture is very homogenised. Kleiber uses thin paint. and focuses on detail to a much deeper level. I just recently discovered that i can hear his nervous and anxious personality in his choice of silent beat durations are sometimes shorter than they should be. listen to his beethoven 5th (1st movement.)
Who is/was Claudio Abbado? Both Kleibers (father Erich and Son Carlos) were great. There is NO greatest or what so ever (only personal preferences)! I rate Carlos Kleiber 3rd behind Wilhelm Furtwängler (1st) and Leonard Bernstein (2nd).
The relationship between the two conductors is well-documented in the new book, 'Corresponding With Carlos'. It makes fascinating reading. The very performance in this vid is discussed by Kleiber and Barber.
Never knew that when Karajan finally decided to appoint a successor his choice was Kleiber…too bad he waited so long to retire, if he hadn’t Kleiber might have accepted and then we might have had a interesting change of pace .
Kleibers grave should be graced and blessed. He feared his own genius!!!! - this made him very very difficult for himself and for all who tried to hire him. Stubborn like a mule. He did not like the music business but sometimes he had to work to make a living. His father was a big shadow for him, he hated his mother in the end. He worked hard on the pieces he conducted and did analyse the original Partitur very very carefully and then - I guess - he could find nuances in the pieces that others did not find and he than transformed it in simply fantastic orchestra work. We should be glad that we "had"him.
Yes, actually VK told it was a pity that Kleiber would conduct only when the fridge was empty... It means only when the money were close to finish... Karajan was asking to have more concerts conducted by Kleiber...
I am with you, brother! Every time I think I’ve had my fill of LvB, I stumble upon something like this, and I am under the spell once more…and somehow the power it holds over my imagination only grows with each encounter. Beethoven is immortal.
@kodomako01l6 What a weird posting your comment is... Karajan and Kleiber both admired each other. Dieter Flury (Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra): "When he wanted to do “Elektra”, Carlos Kleiber wanted Herbert von Karajan to explain it to him. Karajan told us that Carlos Kleiber arrived and remained for four hours and that he had never learned so much in four hours as he did in those four hours with Carlos Kleiber, because he had taught him the entire score"
IS THERE AANYONE HERE THAT CAN TELL ME - PLEASE - WHO IS THE COMPOSER AND THE NAME ON THIS COMPSITION CAUSE THE CHANNEL WHO SENT THIS VIDEO WAS NOT ABLE TO PUT ON THE DESCRIPTION AND I DONT KNOW - I OWULD BE VERY THABKFUL IF YOU COULD TELL ME - THANKS A LOT SWEETIE.
its Beethoven4th, available on DVD together with Beethoven7, Royal Concertgeboyw/Carlos Kleiber, or buy it in a Box with Brahms4/Coriolan, NewYearsconcerts etc on Deutsche Grammophon
quel est le propos pour deux oeuvres différentes avec une interprète assez "fadasse" il faut bien l'avouer Vous n 'aviez pas une version de la 4° par Karajan ??
Nikolaos Kal Karajan and Beethoven? Really? No way! I like Carlos Kleiber (even his father Erich was better IMHO) better than Karajan. However both didn't come close to Furtwängler (except Karajan in the 9th in 1949; C. Kleiber in the 4th with BRSO). Second to Furtwängler for Beethoven IMHO is Leonard Bernstein. I especially like how Furtwängler (and Bernstein) re-compose Beethoven's symphonies! The pure contrary to this (awful) Karajan sound!
Das ist eine glatte Zumutung. Nimmt das Orchester gerade Fahrt auf und eine der interessanten Passagen kommt ...kommt Werbung und anschließend v. Karajan mit dem Violinkonzert. Also nein! Alle Liebhabern der 4. zur Warnung.
narjara ludmillagon Must be Beethoven Corolan Ouverture (if I'm not wrong). For me Carlos Kleiber is one of the greatest ever! Listen to Furtwängler (IMHO he is best at Beethoven). Karajan could have made more out of his immense talent! His "Karajan-sound" for all music seems to be too superficial.
Considering the strong stand his father (famous Austrian conductor, Erich Kleiber) took against the Nazis and fascists, at great personal cost (including self-exile), Carlos should have been ashamed to publicly laud and associate with Karajan, who was an unrepentant member of the German Nazi Party. The membership Karajan took out was done at a time when the Nazi Party was outlawed in Austria.
***** When it comes to Beethoven noone can match Furtwängler (even not Carlos Kleiber except for the 4th. where they are about equal - I slightly prefer Furtwängler)! Karajan has an excellent recording of the 9th symphony by Beethoven - where he really showed what a great conductor he could have been. Unfortunately he created this (awful) Karajan-sound that he used at all composers ... IMHO Karajan made to less out of his immense talent!
Kleiber rendition of Beethoven's 4th is certainly one of the greatest interpretations of any symphonic music.
Kleiber is still untouched by any other conductor in his musical insights and ability to inspire an orchestra to perform miracles of expressiveness.
Kleiber is so good that even numerous times he walked out right before concert but people still would ask him to conduct.
Kleiber: a masterclass of joy.
Wow, Kleiber has brought a new light on Beethoven's Fourth for me...
Je pense que karajan est le plus grand chef d'orchestre du 20 ieme siècle c'est phénoménal j'apprécie énormément sa concentration et son travail c'est extraordinaire j'aime
There is no conductor whose movements so perfectly embody the music as Carlos Kleiber.
Bernstein.
@@sarahjones-jf4pr Not at all.
KLEIBER è LA MUSICA PERFETTA. VON KARAJAN è L INTERPRETE PERFETTO
Une puissance phénoménal une composition magistral je découvre et j'aime beaucoup merci
2 greatest conductor of all time
El resultado tímbrico que extrae el maestro CK en la pequeña muestra sonora de la IV de LvB es grandioso, Su comunicación gestual con la orquesta y sus matizadas indicaciones dibujadas en el aire, circulan en fluido diálogo con respuestas sensoriales que conmueven a la contagiada audiencia. Bravo!
Kleiber and von Karajan lived in a state of mutual respect, admiration, and escape. CK once referred to von K as an "ocean liner among dolphins". He was fascinated by the way von K produced sound.
It's always a great source of merriment for me to see Herr Kleiber ignoring the usual German society rules against smiling in public. Clearly, he was filled with joy at producing such amazing sounds. I only wish he had spent a bit more time doing so, preferably with cameras rolling, and a bit less time escaping to his vacation cottage in Slovenia. I can't begin to imagine what sorts of inner demons he must have been facing, however, I always did feel for him, and admired the consistently exceptional quality of his work on the not so frequent occasions when he actually did conduct.
You are so right, Greg, total immersion in his God-given musical journey of joy and occasional torment.
he was argentine
Sure, we never smile in public here in Germany, God forbid! ;)
Good that you could judge everything, from Kleiber to german people, how much time Carlos you allow him to spent in his "vacation cottage in Slovenia" , how the cameras have to film what they film, and how much concerts M. Kleiber should have given to your smart ears .....
@@bimonsolivar8898 From that smiley i can tell you're not really german.
A graciosidade de Kleiber nao impede que Karajan com a sua robustez leve como sempre a melhor sobre todos os outros notaveis maestros
This is the first time I heard Kleibert, but I am paying attention now!
What a delicious sound from HvK!!
Every piece of music Carlos did was effortless and superlative and you can believe that everyone who worked with him loved him.
Such class from both
this video is ximply extraordinary - superb - fantastic - marvelous - something like being in heaven with angel karajan and angel kleiber ocnducting the souls playing isntruments - majestic - thanks for existing my friend andfor up´loading such a treasure. itt is apure diamond of music.
Che orchestre favolose!
Wondering if this conversation ever happened: "Maestro Von Karajan, what is it like to be the greatest conductor in the world?" He responded: "I don't know, ask Carlos Kleiber." I have lots of respect for both---but Karajan did acknowledge Kleiber and both were friendly in life---distinctly different in approach but able to corral sounds and performance unlike any others, in my opinion.
Two legends and two kings ❤❤
the king was and will always be Celibidache. and his "army" the Munich phil
Two legends and ONE King. HERBERT con KARAJAN. Et recte.😊
Herbert von Karajan war mir schon immer bekannt, aber Carlos Kleiber ist mir neu, und ich bin begeistert von ihm!
Was Kleiber dirigiert hat - es war leider nicht viel - geriet einfach perfekt. Wer Kleiber einmal entdeckt hat, soviel kann ich definitiv versprechen, kommt nicht wieder von ihm los! Er führt Musik in eine neue Dimension.
@@thomaskunze8196 Auf jeden Fall! Um es mit der bildenden Kunst zu vergleichen: Es gibt Dirigenten, die zeichnen. Manche malen. Ich finde, Kleiber hat die Musik geformt oder modelliert wie kein anderer.
but karajan recognized that kleiber is "extra". kleiber go to salzburg to lern elektra from karajan. finally karajan did warmly thank klber!
Did the usually cheap seats behind the orchestra become the most expensive or desirable when Kleiber was conducting?
He is dancing to the music. Love love it.!!!!!!
Le travail musical en binôme et dirigé par karajan donne une vision de magistral
Wouldn’t wanted to get stuck in a lift with Kleiber, but he shure was a genius!
Meraviglioso!
Well, I can't completely agree with you, but I can agree with you on that Carlos Kleiber's movements perfectly embody the music amongst conductors I have seen so far!!! lol (Another words, I agree with you.)
I'm so fascinated by his conducting and interpretation but I'm sure you understand that those words are not satisfyingly describing what he delivers to us.
CK embraced the music, the orchestra, the audience and at least the world
li amo entrambi.
3:48 The look that turned the woodwinds to stone.
karayan era ed è irrangiungibile amava troppo la musica ed il pubblico,grande rispetto per esso,solo musica senza trovate sensazionali
Grandi!
VK has his merits, perhaps the best of them all?!
本当に20世紀後半の大巨匠だ！信じられない高潔、高邁な音楽創造の力❤
Kleiber is not a wannabe at all, he is a great Maestro, one of the best conductors ever, just to mention a few: Mahler (as conductor), Toscanini, Furtwängler, Bernstein, Karajan, Haitink, Abbado, Celibidache, Giulini, etc. and of course Kleiber is among them. To give the adjective "wannabe" doesn't make Karajan look greater, but makes you look as an "not very well informed dilettante". Consider to appreciate his performances not comparing to any other conductor, his art speaks for him.
Celibidache in that list? Thoroughly overrated, never understood the fascination with him, given his normally slower than usual tempi. Bernstein of course was the king with his over 17 minute finale of the Pathetique...
Which Kleiber? There were two: father Erich and Son Carlos! Both deserve a place in your list.
What about Mariss Jansons and Sir Simon Rattle?
@@MusikPiratCH Rattle?
@@crewelocoman5b161 What about Rattle?
@@MusikPiratCH Oh yes Rattle, a very good conductor indeed...but not a great one..imho. I note on the lists mentioned here that Karl Bohm isn't included. Perhaps not one of the most charismatic conductors compared to some but generally regarded as one of the greatest conductors of the Twentieth Century and a supreme interpreter of Wagner, Strauss, Mozart, and Berg. His recording of Beethoven's 'Pastoral' is still one of the best ever done...inmho.
kleiber is a big fan of karajan.
Yes, Kleiber was a big fan of Karajan.
but Kleiber was even greater...
Should be the other way around.
Karajan😍
Also Carlos Kleiber for me was often a true dancer ..
Kleiber is the best from the pianissimo to the fortissino
Very clean
Von Karajan for ever Maestro of all Maestros!! Exceeds absolute perfection!!
Dos grandísimos directores (posiblemente los dos más grandes). Pero yo me quedo, es una cuestión personal, con Kleiber. Siempre Kleiber.
. . . und bitte nicht Celibidache ignorieren, damit könnte man den Egomanen HvK ersetzen . . .
This is an excellent posting displaying two very different approaches to Beethoven. The wonder is that everyone on this thread shares opinions about one or both conductors but NOONE seems able to describe their difference based on the music-making in this actual video. To me there is a world of difference between the sound of Karajan's Beethoven and Kleiber's. The two conductors come from different planets! This video proves it. Listen! You will hear the rich, heavy, smoothed out texture of Karajan. And from Kleiber you will hear clarity of texture, dynamism of momentum, variation within unity throughout the piece. Karajan is so much more homogenised. No judgements, just describing the difference my ears hear. Can anyone else hear this? If not, what difference do YOU hear?
I totally agree with you on this. To me Karajan is like a painter who uses thick paint, he likes to hear how notes sound together, the his texture is very homogenised. Kleiber uses thin paint. and focuses on detail to a much deeper level. I just recently discovered that i can hear his nervous and anxious personality in his choice of silent beat durations are sometimes shorter than they should be. listen to his beethoven 5th (1st movement.)
Arguably one of the greatest conductors although not as popular as a Karajan...
as as popular as coca cola😂😂😂😂
Yes! Carlos Kleiber! THE Greatest! Claudio Abbado said it himself!
Who is/was Claudio Abbado? Both Kleibers (father Erich and Son Carlos) were great. There is NO greatest or what so ever (only personal preferences)!
I rate Carlos Kleiber 3rd behind Wilhelm Furtwängler (1st) and Leonard Bernstein (2nd).
The relationship between the two conductors is well-documented in the new book, 'Corresponding With Carlos'. It makes fascinating reading. The very performance in this vid is discussed by Kleiber and Barber.
Never knew that when Karajan finally decided to appoint a successor his choice was Kleiber…too bad he waited so long to retire, if he hadn’t Kleiber might have accepted and then we might have had a interesting change of pace .
Is that the Tristan chord at1,18 42 and 1.57?........?.....?. Anyone
Kleibers grave should be graced and blessed. He feared his own genius!!!! - this made him very very difficult for himself and for all who tried to hire him. Stubborn like a mule. He did not like the music business but sometimes he had to work to make a living. His father was a big shadow for him, he hated his mother in the end. He worked hard on the pieces he conducted and did analyse the original Partitur very very carefully and then - I guess - he could find nuances in the pieces that others did not find and he than transformed it in simply fantastic orchestra work. We should be glad that we "had"him.
Kiebler, just love this man !
Von Karajan once said that Carlos Kleiber only conducted when his freezer was empty..
Yes, actually VK told it was a pity that Kleiber would conduct only when the fridge was empty... It means only when the money were close to finish... Karajan was asking to have more concerts conducted by Kleiber...
遂にベートーヴェンに回帰した！Eventually I could come back to Beethoven again!
I am with you, brother! Every time I think I’ve had my fill of LvB, I stumble upon something like this, and I am under the spell once more…and somehow the power it holds over my imagination only grows with each encounter.
Beethoven is immortal.
Это вечность
They're Op.60 and 61.
@kodomako01l6
What a weird posting your comment is...
Karajan and Kleiber both admired each other. Dieter Flury (Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra): "When he wanted to do “Elektra”, Carlos Kleiber wanted Herbert von Karajan to explain it to him. Karajan told us that Carlos Kleiber arrived and remained for four hours and that he had never learned so much in four hours as he did in those four hours with Carlos Kleiber, because he had taught him the entire score"
IS THERE AANYONE HERE THAT CAN TELL ME - PLEASE - WHO IS THE COMPOSER AND THE NAME ON THIS COMPSITION CAUSE THE CHANNEL WHO SENT THIS VIDEO WAS NOT ABLE TO PUT ON THE DESCRIPTION AND I DONT KNOW - I OWULD BE VERY THABKFUL IF YOU COULD TELL ME - THANKS A LOT SWEETIE.
its Beethoven4th, available on DVD together with Beethoven7, Royal Concertgeboyw/Carlos Kleiber, or buy it in a Box with Brahms4/Coriolan, NewYearsconcerts etc on Deutsche Grammophon
quel est le propos pour deux oeuvres différentes avec une interprète assez "fadasse" il faut bien l'avouer Vous n 'aviez pas une version de la 4° par Karajan ??
Due giganti. Kleiber è su un altro pianeta.
I wish they had been playing the same piece. But an interesting display of contrasting styles nonetheless.
Less even the same piece as the same KIND of piece - conducting a concerto is so different.
El video me gusta. No me gusta su planteamiento en términos comparativos
Sounds like the opening to Beethoven Symphony No. 4
I like Kleiber, but for Beethoven there is only Karajan.
Nikolaos Kal Karajan and Beethoven? Really? No way! I like Carlos Kleiber (even his father Erich was better IMHO) better than Karajan. However both didn't come close to Furtwängler (except Karajan in the 9th in 1949; C. Kleiber in the 4th with BRSO). Second to Furtwängler for Beethoven IMHO is Leonard Bernstein. I especially like how Furtwängler (and Bernstein) re-compose Beethoven's symphonies! The pure contrary to this (awful) Karajan sound!
In fact, with many composers there is only Karajan
Ad astra!
That bowtie.. 1:50
MARAVILLOSO
Inimitabile
As far as I know, Kleiber never accompanied any soloists.
The way she read the Beethoven back then was incredibly sensitive. She got rough in the last movement, though.
Das ist eine glatte Zumutung. Nimmt das Orchester gerade Fahrt auf und eine der interessanten Passagen kommt ...kommt Werbung und anschließend v. Karajan mit dem Violinkonzert. Also nein! Alle Liebhabern der 4. zur Warnung.
Kleiber non dirige la IV di Beethoven bensì la 42 di Mozart,composta da Amade' dopo aver tracannato un paio di bottiglie di Barbera d'Asti.😂😂😂.
narjara ludmillagon Must be Beethoven Corolan Ouverture (if I'm not wrong).
For me Carlos Kleiber is one of the greatest ever! Listen to Furtwängler (IMHO he is best at Beethoven). Karajan could have made more out of his immense talent! His "Karajan-sound" for all music seems to be too superficial.
It is the 1st movement of the Fourth Symphony.
クライバーさんの
優雅な指揮にブラボー そして最高❗
@kodomako01l6 this comment is quite entertaining to see haha..
Considering the strong stand his father (famous Austrian conductor, Erich Kleiber) took against the Nazis and fascists, at great personal cost (including self-exile), Carlos should have been ashamed to publicly laud and associate with Karajan, who was an unrepentant member of the German Nazi Party. The membership Karajan took out was done at a time when the Nazi Party was outlawed in Austria.
Nothing shaking about your trash.
Las comparaciones suelen ser odiosas, y esta lo es también. Como también lo es el propio comentario del señor markshiel.
***** When it comes to Beethoven noone can match Furtwängler (even not Carlos Kleiber except for the 4th. where they are about equal - I slightly prefer Furtwängler)!
Karajan has an excellent recording of the 9th symphony by Beethoven - where he really showed what a great conductor he could have been. Unfortunately he created this (awful) Karajan-sound that he used at all composers ... IMHO Karajan made to less out of his immense talent!
***** I really cannot take this seriously! Sorry!
MusikPiratCH ＂
MusikPiratCH 人
Great music. Lousy video editing.
Karajan was for me always beer without bubbles , and Kleiber is ..... , you know what , a slight part of the Creator himself .... !
vK
no. Kleiber was.
El video es estupendo, pero no me gusta su planteamiento comparativo
Wow what a stupid comment. Kleiber a wannabe? Perhaps it should say placing one of the greatest conductors (Karajan) next to THE greatest (Kleiber)
Kleiber by 20 lengths.
Beethoven violin concerto is the most annoying piece of music in history...
Kleiber made all other conductors look like fools, including Karajan. LOL