Brilliant video! Chris talking so eloquently about complex issues, that everyone might be able to understand. 40 minutes of pure wisdom shared. Thank you!!!
Great discussion. I learn so much when Chris is speaking. Having audience Q&A brought out the best. This could have gone on for another hour and I would have been spell bound. Thanks Chris and Paul for sharing this. Great for adding credibility to PS Audio speakers as well.
I've been designing and building speakers since the late sixties so for sure my time has passed , but I appreciate Chris and I look forward to more nerd fixes like this . Informative , insightful , and just plain fun . It's also nice to know that some part of the BG organization carries on ...thanks
Very cool to see PS Audio doing this. Love it when companies are open about their product design and comfortable sharing their approach and philosophies. Really helps potential customers understand and appreciate the people working to build the stuff and the passion they have for the products. That means allot in a world where there are so many options, and many of them sort of being a dime a dozen.
Superb engineer with much in the way of an holistic approach toward the goals of loudspeaker system development and research. This informal gathering brief is not only unique. It is a clear demonstration of the confidence in what they are doing today. Many other companies simply don't want anyone to know what they're doing with pretty tried-and-tested formulae, yet here, Chris expands on some more than salient aspects of what constitute as more than relevant advances on key areas that collectively influence the efficiency of these designs. Great presentation!
So relieved to listen to a real engineer here! I'm thinking back on explanations of "technologies" from some of the manufacturers delivering the most expensive high-end products, and how they do persuade some of the reviewers to believe in they undocumented and semi-professional choices of "technologies".
This was a great presentation and very educational. I was fortunate enough to attend and have Chris demo the speakers, much to his credit he passed around the iPad and we could play anything we liked, no curated demo music chosen to sound good. In the room we were in, I enjoyed the middle of the line up the most, I suspect it just gelled with the room better. Many thanks to Paul and PS Audio for hosting our group. Many thanks to Chris for answering my questions about crossover topology and details.
That's nice from Paul, showing so much the tecnology insides. Not all do that and it's always a party and making new friends. Congratulations from Portugal 🇵🇹
The design of these speakers have really grown on me. I thought they looked too commercial or something at first but as I continue to look at them they just really sit well design wise.
One more thing why I, as once a salesman for stereo and home theater systems, asked for the room dimensions was a possibility to estimate how much a client can spend, just to the assumption that the bigger the room needed to sound, the more expensive his real estate is, and the more he can spend. So it was a proxy for a budget if the client didn't want to provide any.
he undersold the fact that speakers "mutilate" the sounds your expensive electronics are creating. he didn't discuss the crossover issues, also. Good stuff.
Wow, love hearing Chris speak with all his knowledge, interesting at the end about some new work being accomplished with Air Motion Transformers, I'm a huge fan and listen to some Great Heils everyday. I went to the Western Electric site to see, very cool.
👍Great content Paul . Thanks for posting/sharing this, and thank you Chris. Very 😎. It’s always great to hear no bull shit tech talk! 👏 ☕️Have a great day, gents!🥳👨🏻
Chris has an amazing ability as an engineer to talk to lay people in simple terms, which shows his true command of the topic. I hope Chris is locked up with ownership in PSA so that he doesn't go the way of Darren to the next higher bidder....
I like this guy. I have several of the B-G ribbon speakers, a pair of LFT-8B Eminent Technology speaks, 2 pairs of ESS AMTS (b & d ver.), and several of the Martin-Logan various models w/ 8" woofers. Oh yeah and a pair of Innersounds that are about 30-years old (ones w/ the separate UK-built bass amp/x-over). So, basically, I'm sick but have a love of that planar clarity and speed. If I was still as nutty and chasing my former audio addiction I can tell I'd most likely want something from this company.
I believe the split gap motor in those large woofers is referred to as XBL squared motor. Used in some terrific subwoofers over the last 15 -20 years. Dan Wiggens had the original patent. see the famous 'Tc sounds LMS 5400 Subbwoofer driver".
Yes, I worked for Adire and that’s what it is. The LMS 5400 is something different. TC sounds LMS technology with a variable voice coil winding to get linear motor force versus excursion
@@cbrunhaver Yup, I recognize an XBL² motor when I see it! At least most of the time. I used to have an old school RE XXX 12" Quad-1Ω running off two Fosgate BD1000.1s in a ported box, and it was an amazing setup. When Andrew started up Adire Audio again, I ended up picking up four 10" Brahma D2's during one of their sales and hope to implement them into a design. The other motor topology that was/is absolutely amazing is JBL's DDD motor in their WGTi series.
Great video! Any plans on making a light grey colored grill cover for the white Aspen speakers? Similar to what B&W and Focal does with their white speakers.
` A double pair KLH-9's not only provide deep, deep bass in quantity, but when driven with OTL Futterman circuitry tube amps, was one of the very rare devices that could render classical double bass sound with all of the timbre intact. Most other sub-bass devices render classical double bass very much like that of a ball park Hammond organ with just one slider in use! I believe that if Gary Karr had the opportunity to listen to what I had in the past, he would have been less reluctant to do recordings.
I thought my disguise would allow me to partake in this wonderful outing and without being noticed. Just an audiophile today tagging along with the Colorado Audio Society members. Just like everyone present and those looking at the video, Paul, Chris and their team members are pushing the limits as to speaker design. It was a treat to visit the music rooms and hear their equipment. A great time had by all! Thanks for noticing I was there!
That subwoofer motor reminds me of an Adire Audio Tumult. While im more into car audio than home audio i enjoy both, but i feel like the car audio world is miles ahead in the subwoofer game. Im curious if the home audio companies even pay attention to car audio (ill assume not much however, considering how many home subs seem to be "proprietary" to certain companies).
Almost certainly parts of it come from the same OEM manufacturer. Pretty sure PSaudio don't run their own steel forge/casting factory. They buy components for their gear from one of the big dogs like everyone else and just assemble. Maybe make or wind vc's locally but they aren't making the wire that goes into the coil. Lots of the time the "designers" will work with OEMs to tweak what the OEM is offering or maybe if they have oodles of cash, they will get the OEM to produce something to their custom spec. That magnet and the speaker basket are probably off the shelf OEM designs. PS audio get to make it their own by whatever VC they strap it to or whoever's speaker cone they strap on the front of it.
@@gtvwill No need to explain to me, i already know these things lol. The basket is an open tooled 'T.I." basket. It was a TC Sounds design, which if i remember correctly the patent had expired. And yes, made now in China. While it reminds me of a Tumult sub mag/top plate, im sure its been tweaked at least a bit. Id be shocked to learn if its the same as the Tumult exactly. Most every part of every sub or speaker is pretty much made in China now, regardless of whether its assembled in America or not. There are still a veeeery small number of US parts manufacturers, but only a few. Precision Econowind is still a US company, and they make a good chunk of voice coils for the audio industry. So at least one part of a sub will usually be US made. I have no idea on the actual wire they use, but it wouldnt surprise me if its foreign as well. Anyways, cones, coils, baskets, motors ect...even full subs to just simply add branding can be ordered from China. Which is why i was surprised to see the sub in this vid. Most of the subs i see for home audio are generally (again) 'proprietary' designs. Which honestly is a bit suspect considering (again) they could learn a lot from the car audio industry instead of trying their own designs that the end result may be good, but its just simply a reason to charge outrageous prices (that goes for regular drivers as well). Subwoofer and speaker designs have changed very little in their overall design for the last 50+ years, materials not withstanding. Then again, I know a lot of the insanely high home audio costs are passed onto consumers as "the price of R&D" and/or ridiculous enclosure materials, which is honestly a huge cop out of you actually think about it. None of these speakers should cost as much as they do. I guess they love the illusion of the customers thinking more expensive is better.
@@FOH3663 Im mainly speaking of subwoofer design. Many car audio subwoofer manufacturers have incredible drivers capable of impressive excursion, power handling, and seriously impressive low frequency response. Im just surprised that more things arent adopted from them and placed into the home audio/subwoofer world. The two that DO stick out from car audio are JL Audio, and Stereo Integrity, and i dont know, maybe a couple others that im forgetting.
Even using floorstanders I still rely on my B&W subwoofer to add really nice controlled bass from it's 10-inch driver and Class A/B 150 watts to give me 20 Hz at 90 dB in my modest 5X5 meter listening room.
Any measurements or information to support this? Maybe with a very poor quality iron core inductor you could see something like that but we are using big air cores and poly film caps and the non-linear distortion is completely dominated by the (already very low distortion) drive units. Active speakers have other benefits (some of which I describe) but, at home audio power levels and midrange crossover points, a difference in sound quality because of lower distortion isn't one of them.
Yes! Just enjoying the hobby! Hard for me at trade shows to actually kick the tires snd get a chance to listen to equipment. Paul was gracious to host the Colorado Audio Society. Hands down Christopher provided us with lots of information and answered many great questions posed by very serious audiophiles. Nice to not be working and enjoying the outing! Thanks for noticing my color test pattern boxers!
I used to work for Dan. I wouldn’t say a lot of companies use it. There are a few, certainly. Home and car subwoofers by their definition are quite low sensitivity. No, I wouldn’t recommend this approach for professional sound reinforcement m. I am also working on some other magnet structures for various products that’s an overhung with undercut pole and saturated tips and some shorting rings
Didn't point out where the planar mid crosses over to the woofer? Cross whatever mid you choose lower, then doppler and intermodulation effects, etc. by a woofer on mid frequencies is less of an issue. Also didn't get into detail about the cone material in the woofer, or enough specifics on their motor's better approach to linearity (if this was developed by someone else many years back, was there a paper published)? The distance integration comments are quite helpful though.
We have a 400 hz crossover on the Aspen FR20/30. Depending on the type and construction of the midrange a lower crossover definitely isn’t always better. Doppler distortion is orders of magnitude less significant to IMD other types of distortion mentioned. The woofer tech is called XBL and was developed at Adire Audio where I worked in my early 20’s.
It’s a plastic diaphragm with an etched aluminum voice coil circuit on it. This allows it to have a high enough impedance to be driven by an audio amplifier without needing a transformer and far more rugged pure aluminum “ribbon”
Wow! Cool to hear that PS Audio is considering doing a new more affordable speaker line. I would love to help Beta test those! How bout a old school 12” high efficiency 3 way. 👍🏻🔈 I really think it could do well!
High Efficiency = High Distortion. You need stronger magnets and stronger coils, to prevent distortions. That comes at a cost of extra power needed to drive them... and its FAR more worth the extra power usage... , rather than using a low power ECO-woofers... that distort vocals and musical details into each other. The diameter of the woofer does make a difference.. however, the driver design itself is far more important than the cone diameter. Ive owned cheap 12" woofers, that couldnt hold a candle to the bass thump, and musical accuracy, of far superior 8" woofers. Personally, I would never use anything below 8" drivers. Most Audiophile companies refuse to use woofers larger than 8 inches, because the larger the cone.. the more mass. The more mass... means that you need much stronger coils and magnets, to be able to accelerate (and decel / stop / reverse) that cone. The lighter the cone... the faster it can accelerate, and you will get Far more precision control (with even less power consumption). Faster and Lighter + strong magnetics = near distortion free, audiophile grade Output.
@@johndough8115 I know this is different, but similar to your points. Dipole speakers, the bass drivers almost never move. They can respond in an instant to transients / bass information. We really have never heard bass sound so good! And to johndough8115 point on the smaller drivers.
@@johndough8115 Good points and you seem to know allot more than me. But check out the measurements online of the CerwinVega! XLS215. These are high efficiency speakers and have a low distortion. 👍🏻
@@johndough8115 Some good points ... but I'll push back on the lighter cones being able to accelerate faster. Moving mass doesn't impact ability to accelerate. As you mentioned it does however impact sensitivity.
@@JR-ho5qm Cerwin Vegas are what you call "Party Speakers"... very close to PA style speakers. They are not even close to being considered Audiophile grade sound. You should also know that the distortions Im speaking of, are not the kinds that you hear. Its more like when you cant understand what lyrics the singer is singing.. because the musical instruments and the singers vocals.. end up blending together.. due to the weak drivers lack of control. DJ / Party type of speakers, are good for very large rooms, where you need extremely loud volume levels.. and the ability to drive the sounds very deep into the room. This is why they often choose to use Horn tweeters... and those are notorious for distorting the natural 3d Soundstage "Image". They also tend to be very "Harsh" and "Fatiguing". Just looked up the model you spoke of. My buddie actually owns this model. He once demo'd them at one of his parties. He put in an Iron Man DVD / Bluray dics... and cranked the volume up to INSANE levels... At the time, I was playing one of his many arcade machines... and all the sudden, I hear Bullets flying, Explosions, glass breaking..etc.. I thought there was an actual WAR going on, outside, for a moment. While it was impressive that these were capable of that level of loudness, and sounding like an actual WAR... Here is the problem: Just like really being in such an event... it was extremely HARSH / Painful to the ears. It wasnt a good thing. Even when he was playing music through them... they had a very flat sound.. without a "3d Soundstage". They were also Harsh to my ears. I didnt really enjoy them at all, compared to my Audiophile grade speakers. Ive actually owned a lot of speakers that could go quite louder than my audiophile speakers. My original speakers, were Techniques 12" 3ways, capable of 200 watts each. While they were loud.. the bass was distorted and artificial sounding (typical of ported speakers). I felt the need to drive them loud.. because I was never fully satisfied with the sound they put out. But when I got a pair of EPI 100v speakers... I was blown away at how much better they sounded. I was finally hearing Bass that sounded musical and REAL.. and It was so amazingly different, that I put the Techs on the Curb, the next day. A single EPI 8 inch woofer, weighted more than TWO of the Techniques 12" woofers combined. Furthermore, they had a bass deeper response, and even a greater "Thump" that you could feel through the room/floor. While they couldnt play nearly as loud as the techs.. I didnt mind it, becuase it was loud enough, and the music sounded 1000x better. For the first time in my life... I was understanding singers lyrics in various old songs.. that I never could make out... on any other speaker that Ive heard / owned. Furthermore, the EPIs inverted tweeters, completely Trounced my Techs cheap mid and tweeter. They make a 3d soundstage that is, almost Holographic. In fact, if I blindfolded you... spun you around 20 times.. then asked you to try to find the speakers.. you wouldnt be able to do it... because the speakers sort of "Vanish". The sound is everywhere... like actually being there. You dont hear a "Speaker" or "Speaker Sound". Nothing artificial sounding... that gives away where the speakers are located. Its like magic! and its what totally sold me on getting a pair for myself. Additionally... unlike the Cerwin Vegas, or my former Techs... the EPIs tweeter produces very detailed highs and mids, WITHOUT sounding Harsh and Fatiguing to the ears... even at max volume levels... where the speakers are on the very verge of blowing. So again... if you are looking for cheap party speakers... you can find them pretty easily. Both used, and new. Because all sorts of people produce loud, low quality, speakers. But very few people produce and use Audiophile grade Drivers in their speakers. Most of them are completely unaffordable to the majority of the masses.. too. Which is why in my case, I lucked out, finding a cheap used pair of EPI's (from the 1970s era). Both refoamed, for a about $100 on Craigslist. These babies completely sh*t on the $3500 speakers, in the local high end audio shop. Its not even a competition. But the EPIs, while able to play loud enough to get the cops called on you, when playing in an Apartment... they are not really "Party" or "DJ" level speakers. Thats a whole other kind of speaker. And Not one that I care for anymore... after hearing the EPIs.
1,500 years of experience in that audience that know the difference between gimmicks and good audio. Just looking for that near-perfect speaker from a company that may actually be able to provide it.
This is extremely fascinating what they've done for their speakers. I'm particularly intrigued by the split gap technology. I have wanted to try making a woofer with a long VC but with graduated windings with a diminished stasis region to address the compression that Chris spoke of.
What you described was already patented by TC sounds as their LMS (linear motor system) technology. This tech is now owned by Tymphany and also used in the purifi woofer
When he turned round that speaker Ahh KEf 139 units no Chris is really starting from scratch to get the best sounding speakers available.Would like to know what the vertical frequency up and down measures a big failing with many makers
These are similar in shape to the b139 passive but are smaller. They had an aluminum/styrofoam “cone” and we are using fiberglass/rohacell/carbon fiber. While the vertical response contributes to the early reflections (off the floor and ceiling), they are a lot less critical than the horizontal response of the speaker to overall sound quality
When asked about active speakers, Chris focused more on all-in-one solutions with dac and dsp. I think the guy wanted to know about active analogue crossovers before the power amp. Al things the same, active speakers have more presence and life. Plus being more efficient you can avoid those gazillion Watts amplifiers.
You can have active digital (DSP) speakers with outboard dacs and power amps. Linn. Sanders Sound. PMC? I will only use active speakers, for the reasons you mentioned. Most pro audio is active. Audiophiles are about 2-3 decades behind. Discard the passive crossovers. A high quality, studio quality DSP. Multiple dacs. Multiple power amps.
@@n.lyndley.9889 I am bit on the fence on all in one HiEnd like Linn. Amp and analogue crossovers last quite some time, but DAC and DSP tend to become obsolete very quickly. My favourite approach wold be passive xover with a bypass on the back of the speakers and a external xover. The user then picks the amp it wants.
Dammm that top plate is a thick boy lol Copper rings do you mean shorting rings right to stop over excursion on the up stroke nice to see you using a TI style basket/frame :)
Actually, what you’re describing is a “shorted turn” of the voice coil. These are a stationary conductive ring (copper or aluminum) placed in one or more places inside the motor (inside an undercut in the pole piece, top of the pole piece, inside the magnet, between the magnetic gaps in a split gap design, sleeving the pole with a thin tube). Generally, these shield the steel from A/C eddy currents which cause A/C forces - distortion- on the coil and DC forces- dynamic offset/rectification. They also make the coils inductance more linear with respect to excursion (in and out of the steel motor) and versus current. JBL and scan speak did some early work with this (see patents for the scan speak sd-1 motor or JBL vented gap/sfg in the 1970s
Thank you for letting us eavesdrop on the thinking behind the FR speaker series, it's very informative. That 18" subwoofer has about 5X the cone area of an 8" unit. What are the differences in performance and cost of using the 18" unit vs 5 of the smaller units? I'm thinking very hatd about springing for the FR20's for my system, just have to fill up that piggy bank.
@@cbrunhaver No it isn't. A passive radiator is a membrane of certain mass and resonance that resides in an infinite baffle enclosure, this augments and enhances the bass or mid-bass drivers low Fq response
@@Campbell1.they are both Helmholtz resonator spring-mass oscillators and work on the same principles. The PR has an additional compliance term that can be mostly ignored when talking about less than a 5 Hz Fp. I spoke with Laurie Fincham on this who derived early math on this in the early 60’s and designed the celestion Ditton passive radiator. That’s like one step away from talking to Harry Olson about its invention.
@@cbrunhaver LOL I used to have a celestion Dittion 150, yes a passive radiator, the cabinet was sealed. From what I've learnt in acoustic engineering is that a passive radiator can not work in a reflex enclosure. Its physics, sorry. A bass reflex means there is a port of some description. And I'll stand by this thanks. IF you can name One speaker in the world through out history that has a passive radiator in a reflex enclosure, I'd be most perplexed
I bet you're always this annoying...chris has forgotten more about speaker design than you will ever gather in a lifetime . Sometimes it's just better to stick to your side of things. That's being the consumer Also rewatch what he said , play It half speed so you actually comprehend what he's saying. He next said what you claim
the subwoofer topic interest me, but i do not like the approach of high excursion, i rather have dual 18" with half the cone travel. that would solve a lot if issues and think you can use the same size box also. and you also the twice the cone area, so you get twice the punch at lower volume. you can wrap you brain around this by an example: one 8" subwoofer with 2" excursion vs one 16" subwoofer with 0.5" excursion, or four 8" subwoofers.
@@davidfromamerica1871 Wow. That's a low blow. Me being older and having slight tinnitus in one ear :) So older people might? be more passionate about audio? I'm asking for a friend.
@@jamesvandamme7786 Paul says you can hear his speakers magically disappear even if you are tone deaf if you buy his system. 👍😀 Don’t wait act now before they are all sold out..😀👍😎🤗
Chris is a Gem. I like how he praises other company’s for what they are good at. This shows his confidence in what he does.
@@MajorImpactwhat-ever
Now buy the speakers.
other companies
Brilliant video! Chris talking so eloquently about complex issues, that everyone might be able to understand. 40 minutes of pure wisdom shared. Thank you!!!
We could have stayed for hours. Great tour of the facility and enjoyed the music rooms.
Someone who actually knows what they’re talking about and answers questions with facts and pro’s & con’s - not just a biased viewpoint.
Tremendous 👏
The 43 minutes of video flew by, I learned more about speakers than in my last 5 years of TH-cam reviews
Totally agree!
Great discussion. I learn so much when Chris is speaking. Having audience Q&A brought out the best. This could have gone on for another hour and I would have been spell bound.
Thanks Chris and Paul for sharing this.
Great for adding credibility to PS Audio speakers as well.
Some of us also visitied the Octave Studio with Paul and Jessica!
What a treat. All digital, lots of Manley, compression less end to end!
Bravo!
Very informative! I learned a lot. Chris is so good at explaining things simply and clearly. A great asset to the PS Audio family.
I've been designing and building speakers since the late sixties so for sure my time has passed , but I appreciate Chris and I look forward to more nerd fixes like this . Informative , insightful , and just plain fun . It's also nice to know that some part of the BG organization carries on ...thanks
Best forty minutes I’ve spent in a while. I love the way Chris and Paul are so generous with their knowledge. ❤
Learn so much every time you post a Chris video, thanks
You guys should be so proud of this new product line. I’m desperate to be able to audition. Chris is a great ambassador and so knowledgeable.
Nice sub-woofer! Chris is brilliant, loved his presentation. Thanks Paul and Chris
Very cool to see PS Audio doing this. Love it when companies are open about their product design and comfortable sharing their approach and philosophies. Really helps potential customers understand and appreciate the people working to build the stuff and the passion they have for the products. That means allot in a world where there are so many options, and many of them sort of being a dime a dozen.
Superb engineer with much in the way of an holistic approach toward the goals of loudspeaker system development and research. This informal gathering brief is not only unique. It is a clear demonstration of the confidence in what they are doing today. Many other companies simply don't want anyone to know what they're doing with pretty tried-and-tested formulae, yet here, Chris expands on some more than salient aspects of what constitute as more than relevant advances on key areas that collectively influence the efficiency of these designs. Great presentation!
LOL ... a friend of mine over for coffee comments "There's a lot of gray hair in that room".
Nice presentation, thanks Chris.
Younger folks likely can’t afford PS Audio
Not sure why all the hate, glad to have access to designers. Thank you!
Bedankt
So relieved to listen to a real engineer here! I'm thinking back on explanations of "technologies" from some of the manufacturers delivering the most expensive high-end products, and how they do persuade some of the reviewers to believe in they undocumented and semi-professional choices of "technologies".
Chris Brunhaver is in a class by himself. His passion is beyond beyond.
PS Audio dropping some serious knowledge. Thanks guys this is a lot of stuff to help clear up quite a few things.
This was a great presentation and very educational. I was fortunate enough to attend and have Chris demo the speakers, much to his credit he passed around the iPad and we could play anything we liked, no curated demo music chosen to sound good. In the room we were in, I enjoyed the middle of the line up the most, I suspect it just gelled with the room better. Many thanks to Paul and PS Audio for hosting our group. Many thanks to Chris for answering my questions about crossover topology and details.
Very interesting, informative and a little nerdy, but not over most of our heads, thanks
That's nice from Paul, showing so much the tecnology insides. Not all do that and it's always a party and making new friends. Congratulations from Portugal 🇵🇹
The guy in the red shoes has a fashion sense that is on POINT.
Chris is offering some very valuable information. Thank you so much.
The design of these speakers have really grown on me. I thought they looked too commercial or something at first but as I continue to look at them they just really sit well design wise.
OMG how am I just finding this channel?? Thank you!! 🔊🔊🔊
I have a feeling Chris will get hired out like Darren. He is very knowledgeable and a lot of speaker companies know who he is now.
One more thing why I, as once a salesman for stereo and home theater systems, asked for the room dimensions was a possibility to estimate how much a client can spend, just to the assumption that the bigger the room needed to sound, the more expensive his real estate is, and the more he can spend. So it was a proxy for a budget if the client didn't want to provide any.
Really enjoyed listening to Chris.
Excellent information & presentation, Chris!!👍👍
Please come to the Toronto Audio Fest ... pretty please. Speaking as a 58 year old, how do we get younger people into hifi?
Fascinating discussion.
he undersold the fact that speakers "mutilate" the sounds your expensive electronics are creating. he didn't discuss the crossover issues, also. Good stuff.
Thanks for sharing! This was great and saw some familiar faces in the crowd.
Chris is so insightful
A well rounded informative discussion. Well done!
Those. Fr30’s. Look. Amazing.
Love the new matte finish 👍🏻🔈
Wow, love hearing Chris speak with all his knowledge, interesting at the end about some new work being accomplished with Air Motion Transformers, I'm a huge fan and listen to some Great Heils everyday. I went to the Western Electric site to see, very cool.
👍Great content Paul . Thanks for posting/sharing this, and thank you Chris. Very 😎. It’s always great to hear no bull shit tech talk! 👏
☕️Have a great day, gents!🥳👨🏻
Chris has an amazing ability as an engineer to talk to lay people in simple terms, which shows his true command of the topic. I hope Chris is locked up with ownership in PSA so that he doesn't go the way of Darren to the next higher bidder....
Again great video! Are there any plans for a video tour of the Aspen speakers being assembled at the overseas factory?
I like this guy. I have several of the B-G ribbon speakers, a pair of LFT-8B Eminent Technology speaks, 2 pairs of ESS AMTS (b & d ver.), and several of the Martin-Logan various models w/ 8" woofers. Oh yeah and a pair of Innersounds that are about 30-years old (ones w/ the separate UK-built bass amp/x-over). So, basically, I'm sick but have a love of that planar clarity and speed. If I was still as nutty and chasing my former audio addiction I can tell I'd most likely want something from this company.
I knew when I saw it that was an XBL driver!
they stole technology from an audio monitor with speaker assembly and the baboon is freaking out xD
Looking forward to Chris's speaker building book to add to my Vance Dickason's classic.
Hoping that if I say it out loud, it'll come true.
I believe the split gap motor in those large woofers is referred to as XBL squared motor. Used in some terrific subwoofers over the last 15 -20 years. Dan Wiggens had the original patent. see the famous 'Tc sounds LMS 5400 Subbwoofer driver".
Yes, I worked for Adire and that’s what it is. The LMS 5400 is something different. TC sounds LMS technology with a variable voice coil winding to get linear motor force versus excursion
@@cbrunhaver Yup, I recognize an XBL² motor when I see it! At least most of the time. I used to have an old school RE XXX 12" Quad-1Ω running off two Fosgate BD1000.1s in a ported box, and it was an amazing setup. When Andrew started up Adire Audio again, I ended up picking up four 10" Brahma D2's during one of their sales and hope to implement them into a design. The other motor topology that was/is absolutely amazing is JBL's DDD motor in their WGTi series.
Great video! Any plans on making a light grey colored grill cover for the white Aspen speakers? Similar to what B&W and Focal does with their white speakers.
do
`
A double pair KLH-9's not only provide deep, deep bass in quantity, but when driven with OTL Futterman circuitry tube amps, was one of the very rare devices that could render classical double bass sound with all of the timbre intact. Most other sub-bass devices render classical double bass very much like that of a ball park Hammond organ with just one slider in use! I believe that if Gary Karr had the opportunity to listen to what I had in the past, he would have been less reluctant to do recordings.
Can't believe it took him just over 20 minutes to use flux, that is a solid engineer/presenter!
The Gentleman with the hat and the shorts - is that Charles Kirmuss from KirmussAudio? 🤨
I thought my disguise would allow me to partake in this wonderful outing and without being noticed. Just an audiophile today tagging along with the Colorado Audio Society members.
Just like everyone present and those looking at the video, Paul, Chris and their team members are pushing the limits as to speaker design. It was a treat to visit the music rooms and hear their equipment. A great time had by all! Thanks for noticing I was there!
@@kirmussaudio7578I for one didn’t recognize you without the lab coat 😊
@@kirmussaudio7578 You are welcome 🤠
As you can see you are also known in Germany - even in disguise 😎
@591desperado Wow, thank you! Hope to be In Munich next year for the HiFi Deluxe! Dunca!
@uncola6028 Thanks! Learned a lot at the presentation. I was a rep for Roger's BBC and Larence Audio a long time ago. Fascinating what Paul is doing!
Chris you are the MAN! AND PS AUDIO COME ON !!!!
LOWER THE PRICES !
That subwoofer motor reminds me of an Adire Audio Tumult. While im more into car audio than home audio i enjoy both, but i feel like the car audio world is miles ahead in the subwoofer game. Im curious if the home audio companies even pay attention to car audio (ill assume not much however, considering how many home subs seem to be "proprietary" to certain companies).
Almost certainly parts of it come from the same OEM manufacturer. Pretty sure PSaudio don't run their own steel forge/casting factory. They buy components for their gear from one of the big dogs like everyone else and just assemble. Maybe make or wind vc's locally but they aren't making the wire that goes into the coil. Lots of the time the "designers" will work with OEMs to tweak what the OEM is offering or maybe if they have oodles of cash, they will get the OEM to produce something to their custom spec. That magnet and the speaker basket are probably off the shelf OEM designs. PS audio get to make it their own by whatever VC they strap it to or whoever's speaker cone they strap on the front of it.
@@gtvwill No need to explain to me, i already know these things lol.
The basket is an open tooled 'T.I." basket. It was a TC Sounds design, which if i remember correctly the patent had expired. And yes, made now in China. While it reminds me of a Tumult sub mag/top plate, im sure its been tweaked at least a bit. Id be shocked to learn if its the same as the Tumult exactly.
Most every part of every sub or speaker is pretty much made in China now, regardless of whether its assembled in America or not. There are still a veeeery small number of US parts manufacturers, but only a few.
Precision Econowind is still a US company, and they make a good chunk of voice coils for the audio industry. So at least one part of a sub will usually be US made. I have no idea on the actual wire they use, but it wouldnt surprise me if its foreign as well. Anyways, cones, coils, baskets, motors ect...even full subs to just simply add branding can be ordered from China.
Which is why i was surprised to see the sub in this vid. Most of the subs i see for home audio are generally (again) 'proprietary' designs. Which honestly is a bit suspect considering (again) they could learn a lot from the car audio industry instead of trying their own designs that the end result may be good, but its just simply a reason to charge outrageous prices (that goes for regular drivers as well). Subwoofer and speaker designs have changed very little in their overall design for the last 50+ years, materials not withstanding.
Then again, I know a lot of the insanely high home audio costs are passed onto consumers as "the price of R&D" and/or ridiculous enclosure materials, which is honestly a huge cop out of you actually think about it. None of these speakers should cost as much as they do. I guess they love the illusion of the customers thinking more expensive is better.
Interesting perspective ... I don't see mobile audio driver design etc., as being ahead of other applications.
@@FOH3663 Im mainly speaking of subwoofer design. Many car audio subwoofer manufacturers have incredible drivers capable of impressive excursion, power handling, and seriously impressive low frequency response. Im just surprised that more things arent adopted from them and placed into the home audio/subwoofer world. The two that DO stick out from car audio are JL Audio, and Stereo Integrity, and i dont know, maybe a couple others that im forgetting.
@@imawesomeyourenot what do you think of rythmik subwoofers
Man I feel humbled I didn’t understand half of it sorry but cool stuff I’m a old person ho just love HiFi and Music 🙏
That's what we seniors should be doing… Exploring our passions and reflecting back on our life experiences.
Thanks, Chris !!
That's not a sub-woofer, that's a rocket engine nozzle!
Paul is eternal young! he will video tape till the end of time! Even if tape is not a thing anymore :)
Awesome video, very informative. 👍🏻
Passive radiators are weighted to a specific mass for the frequency you tune it
Even using floorstanders I still rely on my B&W subwoofer to add really nice controlled bass from it's 10-inch driver and Class A/B 150 watts to give me 20 Hz at 90 dB in my modest 5X5 meter listening room.
Passive crossovers at fairly high levels cause a lot of distortion I think! Active crossovers at line output level are a better option in my opinion ?
Any measurements or information to support this? Maybe with a very poor quality iron core inductor you could see something like that but we are using big air cores and poly film caps and the non-linear distortion is completely dominated by the (already very low distortion) drive units. Active speakers have other benefits (some of which I describe) but, at home audio power levels and midrange crossover points, a difference in sound quality because of lower distortion isn't one of them.
Chris is a big dude. Talk about a cool job
Dude knows his shit. Damn
Where are these made?
Is that Charles Kirmuss?
Yes!
Just enjoying the hobby!
Hard for me at trade shows to actually kick the tires snd get a chance to listen to equipment.
Paul was gracious to host the Colorado Audio Society.
Hands down Christopher provided us with lots of information and answered many great questions posed by very serious audiophiles.
Nice to not be working and enjoying the outing!
Thanks for noticing my color test pattern boxers!
Enjoyed my outing with the Colorado Audio Society!
It's xbl 2 subwoofer dan Wiggins design alot of company's use this design done correctly there low distortion but allso low sensitivity
I used to work for Dan. I wouldn’t say a lot of companies use it. There are a few, certainly.
Home and car subwoofers by their definition are quite low sensitivity. No, I wouldn’t recommend this approach for professional sound reinforcement m.
I am also working on some other magnet structures for various products that’s an overhung with undercut pole and saturated tips and some shorting rings
Information Of Audio Wisdom
is that larry david in blue t shirt????
is that peter mcgrath from Wilson in the front row?
I love how the target audience for high end audio started losing their hearing 25 years ago.
Whats the price of the small speakers?
Great video Paul. Chris need's more airtime :)
needs
Didn't point out where the planar mid crosses over to the woofer? Cross whatever mid you choose lower, then doppler and intermodulation effects, etc. by a woofer on mid frequencies is less of an issue. Also didn't get into detail about the cone material in the woofer, or enough specifics on their motor's better approach to linearity (if this was developed by someone else many years back, was there a paper published)? The distance integration comments are quite helpful though.
We have a 400 hz crossover on the Aspen FR20/30. Depending on the type and construction of the midrange a lower crossover definitely isn’t always better.
Doppler distortion is orders of magnitude less significant to IMD other types of distortion mentioned.
The woofer tech is called XBL and was developed at Adire Audio where I worked in my early 20’s.
Not sure I understand correctly
But the driver diaphragm matriels are made of plastic ?
It’s a plastic diaphragm with an etched aluminum voice coil circuit on it. This allows it to have a high enough impedance to be driven by an audio amplifier without needing a transformer and far more rugged pure aluminum “ribbon”
I always found active speakers to be cleaner than passive. These days with high quality cheap class D amps it's the way to go.
Wow! Cool to hear that PS Audio is considering doing a new more affordable speaker line. I would love to help Beta test those! How bout a old school 12” high efficiency 3 way. 👍🏻🔈 I really think it could do well!
High Efficiency = High Distortion. You need stronger magnets and stronger coils, to prevent distortions. That comes at a cost of extra power needed to drive them... and its FAR more worth the extra power usage... , rather than using a low power ECO-woofers... that distort vocals and musical details into each other.
The diameter of the woofer does make a difference.. however, the driver design itself is far more important than the cone diameter. Ive owned cheap 12" woofers, that couldnt hold a candle to the bass thump, and musical accuracy, of far superior 8" woofers. Personally, I would never use anything below 8" drivers.
Most Audiophile companies refuse to use woofers larger than 8 inches, because the larger the cone.. the more mass. The more mass... means that you need much stronger coils and magnets, to be able to accelerate (and decel / stop / reverse) that cone. The lighter the cone... the faster it can accelerate, and you will get Far more precision control (with even less power consumption). Faster and Lighter + strong magnetics = near distortion free, audiophile grade Output.
@@johndough8115 I know this is different, but similar to your points. Dipole speakers, the bass drivers almost never move. They can respond in an instant to transients / bass information. We really have never heard bass sound so good! And to johndough8115 point on the smaller drivers.
@@johndough8115
Good points and you seem to know allot more than me. But check out the measurements online of the CerwinVega! XLS215. These are high efficiency speakers and have a low distortion. 👍🏻
@@johndough8115
Some good points ... but I'll push back on the lighter cones being able to accelerate faster.
Moving mass doesn't impact ability to accelerate.
As you mentioned it does however impact sensitivity.
@@JR-ho5qm Cerwin Vegas are what you call "Party Speakers"... very close to PA style speakers. They are not even close to being considered Audiophile grade sound.
You should also know that the distortions Im speaking of, are not the kinds that you hear. Its more like when you cant understand what lyrics the singer is singing.. because the musical instruments and the singers vocals.. end up blending together.. due to the weak drivers lack of control.
DJ / Party type of speakers, are good for very large rooms, where you need extremely loud volume levels.. and the ability to drive the sounds very deep into the room. This is why they often choose to use Horn tweeters... and those are notorious for distorting the natural 3d Soundstage "Image". They also tend to be very "Harsh" and "Fatiguing".
Just looked up the model you spoke of. My buddie actually owns this model. He once demo'd them at one of his parties. He put in an Iron Man DVD / Bluray dics... and cranked the volume up to INSANE levels...
At the time, I was playing one of his many arcade machines... and all the sudden, I hear Bullets flying, Explosions, glass breaking..etc.. I thought there was an actual WAR going on, outside, for a moment.
While it was impressive that these were capable of that level of loudness, and sounding like an actual WAR... Here is the problem: Just like really being in such an event... it was extremely HARSH / Painful to the ears. It wasnt a good thing.
Even when he was playing music through them... they had a very flat sound.. without a "3d Soundstage". They were also Harsh to my ears. I didnt really enjoy them at all, compared to my Audiophile grade speakers.
Ive actually owned a lot of speakers that could go quite louder than my audiophile speakers. My original speakers, were Techniques 12" 3ways, capable of 200 watts each. While they were loud.. the bass was distorted and artificial sounding (typical of ported speakers). I felt the need to drive them loud.. because I was never fully satisfied with the sound they put out.
But when I got a pair of EPI 100v speakers... I was blown away at how much better they sounded. I was finally hearing Bass that sounded musical and REAL.. and It was so amazingly different, that I put the Techs on the Curb, the next day. A single EPI 8 inch woofer, weighted more than TWO of the Techniques 12" woofers combined. Furthermore, they had a bass deeper response, and even a greater "Thump" that you could feel through the room/floor. While they couldnt play nearly as loud as the techs.. I didnt mind it, becuase it was loud enough, and the music sounded 1000x better. For the first time in my life... I was understanding singers lyrics in various old songs.. that I never could make out... on any other speaker that Ive heard / owned.
Furthermore, the EPIs inverted tweeters, completely Trounced my Techs cheap mid and tweeter. They make a 3d soundstage that is, almost Holographic. In fact, if I blindfolded you... spun you around 20 times.. then asked you to try to find the speakers.. you wouldnt be able to do it... because the speakers sort of "Vanish". The sound is everywhere... like actually being there. You dont hear a "Speaker" or "Speaker Sound". Nothing artificial sounding... that gives away where the speakers are located. Its like magic! and its what totally sold me on getting a pair for myself.
Additionally... unlike the Cerwin Vegas, or my former Techs... the EPIs tweeter produces very detailed highs and mids, WITHOUT sounding Harsh and Fatiguing to the ears... even at max volume levels... where the speakers are on the very verge of blowing.
So again... if you are looking for cheap party speakers... you can find them pretty easily. Both used, and new. Because all sorts of people produce loud, low quality, speakers. But very few people produce and use Audiophile grade Drivers in their speakers. Most of them are completely unaffordable to the majority of the masses.. too. Which is why in my case, I lucked out, finding a cheap used pair of EPI's (from the 1970s era). Both refoamed, for a about $100 on Craigslist. These babies completely sh*t on the $3500 speakers, in the local high end audio shop. Its not even a competition.
But the EPIs, while able to play loud enough to get the cops called on you, when playing in an Apartment... they are not really "Party" or "DJ" level speakers. Thats a whole other kind of speaker. And Not one that I care for anymore... after hearing the EPIs.
40 min, nice to hear from the inventor of the Western Electric 777 rAMT Midrange Driver
1,500 years of experience in that audience that know the difference between gimmicks and good audio. Just looking for that near-perfect speaker from a company that may actually be able to provide it.
Good job Chris. Now how about a $2,500, 2 way, stand mount ?
Working on it! May be a hair more than that at retail but I’m sure we can get there with our discounts/trade in program
This is extremely fascinating what they've done for their speakers. I'm particularly intrigued by the split gap technology. I have wanted to try making a woofer with a long VC but with graduated windings with a diminished stasis region to address the compression that Chris spoke of.
What you described was already patented by TC sounds as their LMS (linear motor system) technology. This tech is now owned by Tymphany and also used in the purifi woofer
@@cbrunhaver So I was what I call a 5 second billionaire...again🤣
What’s the smallest room that the 10s can reasonably fit in?
This topic was covered in the discussion.
I misspoke and the cobalt/alnico crisis was in 1977/78
When he turned round that speaker Ahh KEf 139 units no Chris is really starting from scratch to get the best sounding speakers available.Would like to know what the vertical frequency up and down measures a big failing with many makers
These are similar in shape to the b139 passive but are smaller. They had an aluminum/styrofoam “cone” and we are using fiberglass/rohacell/carbon fiber.
While the vertical response contributes to the early reflections (off the floor and ceiling), they are a lot less critical than the horizontal response of the speaker to overall sound quality
When asked about active speakers, Chris focused more on all-in-one solutions with dac and dsp. I think the guy wanted to know about active analogue crossovers before the power amp. Al things the same, active speakers have more presence and life. Plus being more efficient you can avoid those gazillion Watts amplifiers.
th-cam.com/video/UHbB9fXtk_M/w-d-xo.html Why having a gazillion watts can matter.
..
You can have active digital (DSP) speakers with outboard dacs and power amps.
Linn. Sanders Sound. PMC?
I will only use active speakers, for the reasons you mentioned.
Most pro audio is active. Audiophiles are about 2-3 decades behind.
Discard the passive crossovers.
A high quality, studio quality DSP.
Multiple dacs.
Multiple power amps.
@jim9930 unfortunately there's a glitch and YT is not showing your comment :(
@@n.lyndley.9889 I am bit on the fence on all in one HiEnd like Linn. Amp and analogue crossovers last quite some time, but DAC and DSP tend to become obsolete very quickly. My favourite approach wold be passive xover with a bypass on the back of the speakers and a external xover. The user then picks the amp it wants.
I wait for the bookshelfs 😋
Dammm that top plate is a thick boy lol
Copper rings do you mean shorting rings right to stop over excursion on the up stroke
nice to see you using a TI style basket/frame :)
Ahh multigap motor nice like the idea
I learnt a lot by this video:)
Actually, what you’re describing is a “shorted turn” of the voice coil. These are a stationary conductive ring (copper or aluminum) placed in one or more places inside the motor (inside an undercut in the pole piece, top of the pole piece, inside the magnet, between the magnetic gaps in a split gap design, sleeving the pole with a thin tube). Generally, these shield the steel from A/C eddy currents which cause A/C forces - distortion- on the coil and DC forces- dynamic offset/rectification. They also make the coils inductance more linear with respect to excursion (in and out of the steel motor) and versus current.
JBL and scan speak did some early work with this (see patents for the scan speak sd-1 motor or JBL vented gap/sfg in the 1970s
Good Stream
Chris looks like he is powerlifting a bit there.
it's useful in design review mtgs.
I don't know why, but I feel sickness in the air in this room
Thank you for letting us eavesdrop on the thinking behind the FR speaker series, it's very informative.
That 18" subwoofer has about 5X the cone area of an 8" unit. What are the differences in performance and cost of using the 18" unit vs 5 of the smaller units?
I'm thinking very hatd about springing for the FR20's for my system, just have to fill up that piggy bank.
can you imagine the size of the cabinet that's going to accommodate that sub
I wanna try a PS Audio speaker so bad. But for the price of their cheapest model I can order Clayton Shaws open baffle beauty Caladan.
6:46 "A reflex box can have a passive radiator in it". I dont think so
A passive radiator is a bass reflex system
@@cbrunhaver No it isn't. A passive radiator is a membrane of certain mass and resonance that resides in an infinite baffle enclosure, this augments and enhances the bass or mid-bass drivers low Fq response
@@Campbell1.they are both Helmholtz resonator spring-mass oscillators and work on the same principles. The PR has an additional compliance term that can be mostly ignored when talking about less than a 5 Hz Fp. I spoke with Laurie Fincham on this who derived early math on this in the early 60’s and designed the celestion Ditton passive radiator. That’s like one step away from talking to Harry Olson about its invention.
@@cbrunhaver LOL I used to have a celestion Dittion 150, yes a passive radiator, the cabinet was sealed. From what I've learnt in acoustic engineering is that a passive radiator can not work in a reflex enclosure. Its physics, sorry. A bass reflex means there is a port of some description. And I'll stand by this thanks. IF you can name One speaker in the world through out history that has a passive radiator in a reflex enclosure, I'd be most perplexed
I bet you're always this annoying...chris has forgotten more about speaker design than you will ever gather in a lifetime .
Sometimes it's just better to stick to your side of things. That's being the consumer
Also rewatch what he said , play It half speed so you actually comprehend what he's saying. He next said what you claim
He ain’t no Micheal Borresen, or Von Schweikert.
the subwoofer topic interest me, but i do not like the approach of high excursion, i rather have dual 18" with half the cone travel.
that would solve a lot if issues and think you can use the same size box also.
and you also the twice the cone area, so you get twice the punch at lower volume.
you can wrap you brain around this by an example: one 8" subwoofer with 2" excursion vs one 16" subwoofer with 0.5" excursion, or four 8" subwoofers.
Do you notice the age group in this video.🤔😳🙄
And?
@@davewin1792
They should have set up a mobile Audiologist testing vehicle in the parking lot. 😀
@@davidfromamerica1871 Wow. That's a low blow. Me being older and having slight tinnitus in one ear :) So older people might? be more passionate about audio? I'm asking for a friend.
@@davewin1792 We have the money but can't hear above 5K.
@@jamesvandamme7786
Paul says you can hear his speakers magically disappear even if you are tone deaf if you buy his system. 👍😀
Don’t wait act now before they are all sold out..😀👍😎🤗
I like theese speakers, but I would like them even more if the outside was made of wood.
nice HAT....
I think he knows what he's talking about...
small subwoofer look at car audio there are 24 inch and 32 inch subwoofers
In high performance home audio too.