tbh, I think it’d be an easier way to test and show these differences to the user, by using Tonal Energy’s Harmonic Analyzer. It shows the base and upper harmonics of the note played, together with the pitch and the overall brightness / darkness of the note. Then by using the same sax and setup, and more importantly the same microphone and distance, one could compare if there is any difference between the Upper harmonics of the two horns when played in fundamentally the same way (easier to take video, than to take two images, just use screen record). It sounds way more complicated than it actually is, but no need for blindfold or gloves. It’s a pretty easy way to put an end to all these similar questions from the listener’s point of view.
I am playing a Yamaha 82zII Lacquered and Unlacquered (82Z UL) tenor en alto's (4 horns). I found the Lacquered had a bit more projection and brightness in the sound. More edge, which I like. But I like the look of the Unlacquered. It has more vintage sound (mellow). So yeah, there is obviously a difference in how your horn sounds!
Thanks for this test, Jim! After years of lacquered saxes, I bought an unlacquered Ishimori Woodstone Vintage alto sax with an F# key. I absolutely love its vibrational frequencies and the feel and sound of that while I am playing. Of course, some of those results could be due to the Ishimori itself as I didn't have the opportunity to test a lacquered one and this is my first Ishimori. I've had it for 2 years and it just keeps looking and playing better and better (IMHO)
That's very interesting. But the difference must be extremely small. The lacquer weighs almost nothing compared to the metal, so the damping is also very low. Have you tried measuring the overtones? Can you see the difference in the frequency curves?
I could hear the more pronounced higher frequencies the unlacquered had. I prefer lacquered as I don't like the look and feel of an unlacquered saxophone as it tarnishes.
Not sure, but I know that Phil Woods honestly felt there was a huge difference with the unlaquered Yamaha. I wonder if how you play makes a difference. No one put as much air through the alto as Phil Woods, so maybe that will access another side to these horns.
Here my 2cents about this topic: The experiment itself is of course flawed. I have never had two new saxophone of the same model that (except maybe at the Yamaha pro line) that didn't sound a bit different. So this one experiment doesn't prove anything by itself. But everybody who says, they never heard a difference maybe doesn't have the most developed ears. But here comes Jimmy's expertise. If you compare hundred of new instruments of different brands and finishes and you notice the same tendencies of finishes, that's a hint. I would have changed the experiment a bit. I would take a Standard Selmer Neck and use it on every brand that fits it and offers different finishes. If you get like 80% of the brand duels right, that would be significant. And about the science part. Every change in mass/density changes the Eigenfrequenzys of an object. In machine engineering that's a big topic. Of course that changes how the instrument vibrates. And although the finish is just a quite small difference in mass, it covers the whole instrument. In my experience, that has more influence than a heavy weight screw . How big, hearable or better/worse the change will be, is a different question. But in the end, I advise my students to buy what they think, looks cooler. 😎
Yes, and even two "identical" mouthpieces and reeds are anything but. An excellent compromise is to get a standard, lacquered saxophone that won't tarnish, along with an unlacquered neck. Best of both worlds.
I was listening on headphones and, with the quality of sound on TH-cam, heard no difference. Anyone who thinks they can is deluding themselves. Even if there is a difference, talk of the external finish is irrelevant. The only factor that could have an impact would be the internal bore smoothness. Also, a more valid test would be to try several lacquered and several unlacquered instruments. A one-on-one test is proof of sample variation, not surface finish.
tbh, I think it’d be an easier way to test and show these differences to the user, by using Tonal Energy’s Harmonic Analyzer.
It shows the base and upper harmonics of the note played, together with the pitch and the overall brightness / darkness of the note.
Then by using the same sax and setup, and more importantly the same microphone and distance, one could compare if there is any difference between the Upper harmonics of the two horns when played in fundamentally the same way (easier to take video, than to take two images, just use screen record).
It sounds way more complicated than it actually is, but no need for blindfold or gloves.
It’s a pretty easy way to put an end to all these similar questions from the listener’s point of view.
Awesome sound!❤
I am playing a Yamaha 82zII Lacquered and Unlacquered (82Z UL) tenor en alto's (4 horns). I found the Lacquered had a bit more projection and brightness in the sound. More edge, which I like. But I like the look of the Unlacquered. It has more vintage sound (mellow). So yeah, there is obviously a difference in how your horn sounds!
Thanks for this test, Jim! After years of lacquered saxes, I bought an unlacquered Ishimori Woodstone Vintage alto sax with an F# key. I absolutely love its vibrational frequencies and the feel and sound of that while I am playing. Of course, some of those results could be due to the Ishimori itself as I didn't have the opportunity to test a lacquered one and this is my first Ishimori. I've had it for 2 years and it just keeps looking and playing better and better (IMHO)
That's very interesting. But the difference must be extremely small. The lacquer weighs almost nothing compared to the metal, so the damping is also very low. Have you tried measuring the overtones? Can you see the difference in the frequency curves?
I could hear the more pronounced higher frequencies the unlacquered had. I prefer lacquered as I don't like the look and feel of an unlacquered saxophone as it tarnishes.
When will you be doing a test video on the Selmer series ii and series iii soprano saxophone and comparing them with Yamaha and Yanagisawa soprano
Not sure, but I know that Phil Woods honestly felt there was a huge difference with the unlaquered Yamaha. I wonder if how you play makes a difference. No one put as much air through the alto as Phil Woods, so maybe that will access another side to these horns.
Unlacquered for me because of the sound and I also enjoy the Patina as it tells a story of sorts.
SCSI is in fact quite old.
Here my 2cents about this topic:
The experiment itself is of course flawed. I have never had two new saxophone of the same model that (except maybe at the Yamaha pro line) that didn't sound a bit different.
So this one experiment doesn't prove anything by itself. But everybody who says, they never heard a difference maybe doesn't have the most developed ears.
But here comes Jimmy's expertise. If you compare hundred of new instruments of different brands and finishes and you notice the same tendencies of finishes, that's a hint.
I would have changed the experiment a bit. I would take a Standard Selmer Neck and use it on every brand that fits it and offers different finishes.
If you get like 80% of the brand duels right, that would be significant.
And about the science part. Every change in mass/density changes the Eigenfrequenzys of an object. In machine engineering that's a big topic.
Of course that changes how the instrument vibrates.
And although the finish is just a quite small difference in mass, it covers the whole instrument. In my experience, that has more influence than a heavy weight screw .
How big, hearable or better/worse the change will be, is a different question.
But in the end, I advise my students to buy what they think, looks cooler.
😎
Yes, and even two "identical" mouthpieces and reeds are anything but. An excellent compromise is to get a standard, lacquered saxophone that won't tarnish, along with an unlacquered neck. Best of both worlds.
@@MichaelCorner-l7o I think, in Jazz and popular music there is no solution that fits all.
I was listening on headphones and, with the quality of sound on TH-cam, heard no difference. Anyone who thinks they can is deluding themselves. Even if there is a difference, talk of the external finish is irrelevant. The only factor that could have an impact would be the internal bore smoothness. Also, a more valid test would be to try several lacquered and several unlacquered instruments. A one-on-one test is proof of sample variation, not surface finish.