Love the idea of a conference on service, where people are given loo brushes. My only experience of a certain London church with many lawyers in the congregation taught me a lot. My husband worked for a Christian publisher, and for some reason, some of the wives were roped in to serve coffee to a group from the church. First, a woman told us in no uncertain terms not to go near her cello, because it was worth thousands of pounds. We had no intention of going near the cello, but it made us feel like naughty children. Thereafter we became invisible to the entire group. We were of no importance, because we were only serving the coffee. I made up my mind from then on to notice people who serve, and to acknowledge them. Of course I don't always succeed, but that is my aim, so thank you, lady with the cello.
Great to have this conversation. Great to talk about it all. Agree with Nick... it's complicated. At times I've wanted to disengage entirely with "worship" but my hunch is it's important not to throw it all out, but to pick through it and salvage the good parts.
A saying I came across a number of years ago 'What you attract them with, you attract them to'. There's a fine line between it becoming an 'experience' and 'entertainment'.
Great conversation guys I struggle so much with worship music and does it really represent God or is it trying too hard to sound like the bands I loved in rock and roll and is that why i keep wondering is it right or are Hymns the way forward . Bless you both for voicing thought 😊
About 5 years ago at Spring Harvest (where the bass drum was punching me in the chest most of the time) CofE Rev Simon Ponsonby was about to speak. The worship band had just blasted this noise at us for the previous 25 minutes. He asked the acoustic guitarist + the girl vocalist to lead us in 'Father I Love You', a song from the 70's, I think. For the first time we all felt like we were connecting with God. (Completely unconnected point: the PA guys couldn't tell the difference between the bass guitar (couldn't hear it at all) and the lower end of the Nord where all the bass sound was coming from. Mega incompetence. I felt for the bass player who might as well have not been there)
Went to recent Christian conference and the engineers set a hard limiter on the music. No dynamics, sound was squashed. Couldn't hear the bass guitar. Drummer was in his plastic/blanket covered box and what came out the PA was not worth this effort. I found it so distracting. We sang a classic hymn with just the piano and it was much easier to connect with the words we were singing.
@nikolaki wow. I really think some of these PA guys/firms really have no idea. They're simply not listening, the volume is cranked up so high. I stopped going to Creation fest in Cornwall cos of this. You actually had parents making their toddlers wear ear defenders in the arena. That says it all really. If it's too loud for little ones, then it's too loud full stop.
I'm only halfway through but very interesting. I've been involved in the musical aspects of church worship for quite a number of years, but towards the end of leaving evangelical/charismatic circles (I'm now Orthodox) I used to find the format of the music worship increasing puzzling and vexing. Of course, no, it's not about us, it's about God, he gets all the glory etc.... but at the end of the day, there we were, on a raised platform, facing the congregation in a performance style layout, all eyes on us on the platform. I remember trying to figure out if there was any other way of doing it, as the performance style music seemed to contradict the "all glory to him" intention, which for the most part, was intentional. Also, people would sometime say that "the worship was good today" I never really knew what people meant by that, I should have asked them I suppose. I remember thinking, well, if you worshipped then it was good, if you didn't, it was terrible. However, in that kind of church setting, I honestly don't know how you you do anything differently, it would be a bit weird to have the musicians hidden somewhere, sometimes I thought maybe the band could be on floor level, not up on a platform, and maybe facing the front, the same way as the congregation etc.... but it all felt a bit like trying to re-invent the wheel. Also, people would say to us that unless we did Rend Collective songs ALL OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE WILL LEAVE THE CHURCH.... All of these music problems are now solved for me in the Orthodox Church which I've joined, no musical instruments, only voices, no tiresome soundchecks and botherations with equipment etc... and the singers are either standing to one side or hidden in a gallery. Of course, we have other problems in the Orthodox church but the worship music conundrum is one that I've left behind. I've posted am example of how this works in this video: th-cam.com/video/--TnS8TyTyE/w-d-xo.html
You briefly mentioned Stewart Townsend and Church of Christ the King. I was briefly involved with them, maybe for five years or so. I would love to hear more from others who were involved with CCK / Newfrontiers and came out the other side.
I became a charismatic in part due to the music from CCK, especially that of Stuart Townend et al. They struck me as rather different to the mainstream, and I was taken with the attention to theological detail. I shared a lot of the same theology, but they seemed to enjoy it more. My journey was out of traditional conservative cessationist evangelical churches, into what used to be called "reformed charismatic". At one point I even became an elder in a Newfrontiers church, but that went horribly wrong due to spiritual abuse that left me scared for more than a decade (I'm still not completely recovered). I am now an Anglican, and exploring ordination at 60. What a time to be in the CofE *&?%! I still have my Nord Stage 2, which is played every week in church, sometimes even by me. At our midweek communion, I generally choose a traditional hymn and something by Townend, Redman, or Hughes. I'm also a big fan of Choral Evensong, and try to get along to my local cathedral for that several times a week. It's a great place to meet people who are ready and willing to talk about Jesus. I like good music in all forms. But when it comes to church, the content really matters to me. When truth and beauty combine, it's wonderful. At Evensong the content is Scripture, and Cranmer (which is almost scripture) ;) I find much charismatic worship childish. It's really sad when folk say "I can only worship God" in such-and-such a cultural form. What sad, monochromatic lives they must live. It can be extremely enriching to connect with others in worship across geography and time, and a protection against living in a bubble. Charles Wesley probably wrote over 6000 hymns. Today, probably less than a couple of dozen of those are in regular use. How many Hillsong, Bethel, Soul Survivor, Passion songs will be in use in 250 years, when hardly any seem to make it past 25? I work in tech, and have a side-line in helping churches install low-end digital mixers (e.g. X32, M32) as these are still pretty easy to use, and provide basic features that can stop poor audio becoming a distraction. Alarm bells usually start ringing as soon as anyone asks for IEM.
I think by the 2000s part of the "point" of church had gone - generally if you were interested in Bible teaching you could get better teaching online than in your local church (and at least comparable with teaching at a festival by Big Names), but listening to a CD isn't the same as being part of a congregation singing and so for our generation I think worship leaders were more important than ministers. I don't know if my experience is representative or not, but I think that something also happened around the same time with ministry. When I was a child our ministers used to visit the family and there was a sense of interest in the family. I've never had a pastoral visit as an adult and none if my ministers have taken any sort of active interest in my life. So I wonder if also for our generation that worship leaders became more of the "vicar" and ministers just an administrator?
That's really insightfu, I think you've highlighted exactly what is often missing. The relationship was replaced with home) cell groups, whilst the church leader dealt with admin/ emails and (often the same) people with problems. Thanks
Love the idea of a conference on service, where people are given loo brushes.
My only experience of a certain London church with many lawyers in the congregation taught me a lot.
My husband worked for a Christian publisher, and for some reason, some of the wives were roped in to serve coffee to a group from the church.
First, a woman told us in no uncertain terms not to go near her cello, because it was worth thousands of pounds. We had no intention of going near the cello, but it made us feel like naughty children. Thereafter we became invisible to the entire group. We were of no importance, because we were only serving the coffee. I made up my mind from then on to notice people who serve, and to acknowledge them. Of course I don't always succeed, but that is my aim, so thank you, lady with the cello.
She sounds like a sweetheart. Genuine connection matters every time.
As someone still trying to find my feet after 11 years on church staff as a worship pastor, this conversation was very healing ✌🏻
Thanks for saying that. I'm still finding my feet as to what to share here. Nick is such a kind guy - do look him up.
Great to have this conversation. Great to talk about it all. Agree with Nick... it's complicated. At times I've wanted to disengage entirely with "worship" but my hunch is it's important not to throw it all out, but to pick through it and salvage the good parts.
A saying I came across a number of years ago 'What you attract them with, you attract them to'.
There's a fine line between it becoming an 'experience' and 'entertainment'.
Its a shame you dont have more views, these videos are so needed
Thanks Matt - I'm only really just starting out with this and now finding people to film with. Nick was an awesome first interviewee wasn't he?
Great conversation guys I struggle so much with worship music and does it really represent God or is it trying too hard to sound like the bands I loved in rock and roll and is that why i keep wondering is it right or are Hymns the way forward . Bless you both for voicing thought 😊
About 5 years ago at Spring Harvest (where the bass drum was punching me in the chest most of the time) CofE Rev Simon Ponsonby was about to speak. The worship band had just blasted this noise at us for the previous 25 minutes. He asked the acoustic guitarist + the girl vocalist to lead us in 'Father I Love You', a song from the 70's, I think. For the first time we all felt like we were connecting with God. (Completely unconnected point: the PA guys couldn't tell the difference between the bass guitar (couldn't hear it at all) and the lower end of the Nord where all the bass sound was coming from. Mega incompetence. I felt for the bass player who might as well have not been there)
Went to recent Christian conference and the engineers set a hard limiter on the music.
No dynamics, sound was squashed. Couldn't hear the bass guitar. Drummer was in his plastic/blanket covered box and what came out the PA was not worth this effort.
I found it so distracting.
We sang a classic hymn with just the piano and it was much easier to connect with the words we were singing.
@nikolaki wow. I really think some of these PA guys/firms really have no idea. They're simply not listening, the volume is cranked up so high. I stopped going to Creation fest in Cornwall cos of this. You actually had parents making their toddlers wear ear defenders in the arena. That says it all really. If it's too loud for little ones, then it's too loud full stop.
@@Thirddegree26 that's terrible.
A very helpful video thanks both.
Glad it was helpful!
I'm only halfway through but very interesting. I've been involved in the musical aspects of church worship for quite a number of years, but towards the end of leaving evangelical/charismatic circles (I'm now Orthodox) I used to find the format of the music worship increasing puzzling and vexing. Of course, no, it's not about us, it's about God, he gets all the glory etc.... but at the end of the day, there we were, on a raised platform, facing the congregation in a performance style layout, all eyes on us on the platform. I remember trying to figure out if there was any other way of doing it, as the performance style music seemed to contradict the "all glory to him" intention, which for the most part, was intentional. Also, people would sometime say that "the worship was good today" I never really knew what people meant by that, I should have asked them I suppose. I remember thinking, well, if you worshipped then it was good, if you didn't, it was terrible. However, in that kind of church setting, I honestly don't know how you you do anything differently, it would be a bit weird to have the musicians hidden somewhere, sometimes I thought maybe the band could be on floor level, not up on a platform, and maybe facing the front, the same way as the congregation etc.... but it all felt a bit like trying to re-invent the wheel. Also, people would say to us that unless we did Rend Collective songs ALL OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE WILL LEAVE THE CHURCH.... All of these music problems are now solved for me in the Orthodox Church which I've joined, no musical instruments, only voices, no tiresome soundchecks and botherations with equipment etc... and the singers are either standing to one side or hidden in a gallery. Of course, we have other problems in the Orthodox church but the worship music conundrum is one that I've left behind. I've posted am example of how this works in this video: th-cam.com/video/--TnS8TyTyE/w-d-xo.html
@@TheMOV13 perhaps we musicians should stand stand on the floor like everyone else. Always feels uncomfortable being 'elevated '
You briefly mentioned Stewart Townsend and Church of Christ the King. I was briefly involved with them, maybe for five years or so. I would love to hear more from others who were involved with CCK / Newfrontiers and came out the other side.
I became a charismatic in part due to the music from CCK, especially that of Stuart Townend et al. They struck me as rather different to the mainstream, and I was taken with the attention to theological detail. I shared a lot of the same theology, but they seemed to enjoy it more.
My journey was out of traditional conservative cessationist evangelical churches, into what used to be called "reformed charismatic". At one point I even became an elder in a Newfrontiers church, but that went horribly wrong due to spiritual abuse that left me scared for more than a decade (I'm still not completely recovered).
I am now an Anglican, and exploring ordination at 60. What a time to be in the CofE *&?%! I still have my Nord Stage 2, which is played every week in church, sometimes even by me. At our midweek communion, I generally choose a traditional hymn and something by Townend, Redman, or Hughes.
I'm also a big fan of Choral Evensong, and try to get along to my local cathedral for that several times a week. It's a great place to meet people who are ready and willing to talk about Jesus.
I like good music in all forms. But when it comes to church, the content really matters to me. When truth and beauty combine, it's wonderful. At Evensong the content is Scripture, and Cranmer (which is almost scripture) ;)
I find much charismatic worship childish. It's really sad when folk say "I can only worship God" in such-and-such a cultural form. What sad, monochromatic lives they must live. It can be extremely enriching to connect with others in worship across geography and time, and a protection against living in a bubble.
Charles Wesley probably wrote over 6000 hymns. Today, probably less than a couple of dozen of those are in regular use. How many Hillsong, Bethel, Soul Survivor, Passion songs will be in use in 250 years, when hardly any seem to make it past 25?
I work in tech, and have a side-line in helping churches install low-end digital mixers (e.g. X32, M32) as these are still pretty easy to use, and provide basic features that can stop poor audio becoming a distraction. Alarm bells usually start ringing as soon as anyone asks for IEM.
IEMs are such a good distinction. Keep well!
In ear monitors and click tracks make me shudder
I think by the 2000s part of the "point" of church had gone - generally if you were interested in Bible teaching you could get better teaching online than in your local church (and at least comparable with teaching at a festival by Big Names), but listening to a CD isn't the same as being part of a congregation singing and so for our generation I think worship leaders were more important than ministers.
I don't know if my experience is representative or not, but I think that something also happened around the same time with ministry. When I was a child our ministers used to visit the family and there was a sense of interest in the family. I've never had a pastoral visit as an adult and none if my ministers have taken any sort of active interest in my life.
So I wonder if also for our generation that worship leaders became more of the "vicar" and ministers just an administrator?
That's really insightfu, I think you've highlighted exactly what is often missing. The relationship was replaced with home) cell groups, whilst the church leader dealt with admin/ emails and (often the same) people with problems. Thanks
Extremely interesting conversation but I'll have to finish it off later.....
Music in Church has become over spiritualized, it's lost its rightful place.