I hope Tony's kit is not missing a foil component from bag #6 like the one someone gave me was! Luckily a quick trip to the local Lego store got me fixed up. It really is a fantastic model.
one of the things I'm sure you noticed but didn't comment on is that the AM cyclers as a virtue of their recumbent position seem to be more reliant on hand grips for power output, probably making it impossible for them to be fiddling with too many controls. I remember watching the global cycling network video and anytime you see them in a recumbent position they always have a real tight grip on some handles looking like they are pushing against them really hard, whereas hands aren't that important for upright cycling power output unless you are out of your seat sprinting / dancing.
I thought the recumbent cyclors looked very uncomfortable and seemed to be awkwardly struggling to peddle. To fiddle with buttons would have been difficult I agree. And they couldn't see anything and didn't even realize other cyclors were performing sailing/trimming tasks until I watched this video! Even the screen they did have was off to one side, so they had their heads turned much of the time.
@@DriverDad58 I think your point about the recumbent cyclors not having the ability to see negated the possibility of having any controls more than any other reason. They'd need displays or windows to see what's going on outside for controls.
I noticed this as well. Combined with zero visibility down in the boat it made me wonder if recumbent was too much of a sacrifice for reasons outside of power
Great analysis thank you, it was Team NZ in Bermuda who used the cyclors for flight control, allowing Peter Burling to focus just on steering the boat.
Love the breakdown Mozzy, great stuff as always and looking forward to more during the finals. I wish we could afford to send you down to Barcelona for live coverage!
Lots of good info in this video mate. The have a mate who was a big road cycling racer who also races IQ Foil class with me, and he said the the recumbent cycle position doesn’t generate anywhere near the same kind of power as the traditional position. It looked to me like they were struggling for power to stay on the foils in the light stuff especially.
It was always a tradeoff between power and packaging. It's easy to say in hindsight that it was the wrong decision but I don't see any of you designing AC75's so I wouldn't put too much weight on your expertise.
I think allowing them to push buttons to aid the helmsman and flight controller is a big advantage that AM didn’t have, they focused too much on aerodynamic’s not realising preventing a touchdown is infinitely more important
Peak power, yes, I can see that. Overall and over time, not sure why this would be true. Many world records are held by folks riding in the recumbent position (top speed, race across America, human powered airplane, etc,). Often this has to do with the aerodynamic benefits of the rider being reclined rather than the position itself. Not sure if actual power output data for traditional vs recumbent position is available.
In motorsport you often have a mark button in the vehicle that the driver can press to put a marker in the data log for later analysis, I wonder if this is the same function as shown in the video. It's used so that you can quickly find that bit of data during the debrief and dig further in, rather than relying on the driver recalling where it happened. On some logger systems it can also trigger a burst logging function where the channels for a set number of seconds either side of the data point are logged at a higher rate so that you get more data. The keypads that they are using are Greyhill CAN keypads, so they need to be talking to another device in the boat to work, they only transmit the button press, and then the external device works with that press to control the function. they can also receive messaging over the CAN Bus to activate the three LED's above the buttons.
Since ETNZ in Bermuda split Helm from Flight control, and LRPP split helm to 2 roles, the trajectory of more Brains involved is better, has clearly been faster than overloading individuals. So recumbent cylors who produce less energy and cannot contribute in other helpful ways are never going to be systemically more valuable than the tiny aero gains that lying back might give....... But everyone is a Genius with Hindsight
Nice video and analyst .. What interest me is the sreamline hull of AM not make big speed different on straight than others bulky hull like BRITA. So their advantage (AM) on straight line (more speed assumption) can not replace lack of cyclor power and control. Than I do think the biggest drag of AC75 is their big main sail, jib (air drag) and foil, rudder (hydro drag) from long way (and their design are pretty similiar cross section accros team) vs the hull, so as long their hull not a big boxy high drag it will not make any different.
Great analysis, good insights. I remain astonished that the NYYC effort did not succeed further. Well-funded, lots of experience from the first effort, high-caliber sailing team, but the boat seemed to have minor weaknesses and the team made surprising mistakes.
After the investment in design, trials, training and testing you would have high expectations for the team, yet It is racing that catalyzes potential into a coherent package. On the downside it also exposes unfound weakness and concealed risk. With regard to American Magic I cant imagine anyone sat in a risk assessment meeting and suggested that "one of the skippers might fall down a hatch and crack four ribs taking them offline for many weeks". Its speculative but the boats were close and losing Goody could well have been the difference between winning and losing. Thats not to downplay the fabulous talent of Lucas Calabrese who performed superbly given the circumstances but it has to have made a difference when the margins were so tight, what learnings will teams take from that incident ?
@@number1genoa but did Goody really do better than Calabrese? AM lost 2 out of 2 against LRPP when Goody was still sailing (won once and lost once against Ineos, and lost against ETNZ). With Lucas they went 5/3 with LRPP and with tighter races.
@@famillebarrow8664for sure, but as Riffriff points out, AM didn't actually do noticeable worse without Goody onboard, and arguably actually sailed better, at least towards the end of the Semi. Not to take anything away from Calabrese or Goodison, but maybe placing a higher burden on Slingsby actually made them perform better? Slingsby is arguably one of the very best, if not the best, foiling helm in the world. His record on Sail GP is extremely impressive. I doubt that Slingsby will be sailing with AM next Cup, if there is any chance he can get an Aussie team together, and having Kyle Langford and others from his Sail GP team with him. There really seemed to be a fair bit of frustration from him on the boat, perhaps a lack of team cohesion?
Terrific insights into the Alinghi and AMagic campaigns, much of which I've not heard from anywhere else! Between you and Matt at PlanetSail, this sailing event has been so fascinating to follow. Also, I whole heartedly agree that the AC40's in the youth ACup has been a lot of fun to watch too. I wish I could get away to Barcelona for a week or two of spectating.
Great article. Balanced and covers a number of possible causes. On a different note I wonder what your take on the Dock Walk interviews just before each race. It's a modern thing to have more coverage but the itch in my mind is that it inadvertently introduces new and awkward thought processes before a tight and tense race. As a coach and instructor of two different elite level sports it was something we avoided like the plague. Nothing new in the mind for the players and participants in the lead up to the competition or event was our preference. I noticed a nervous glance by Ainslie toward Jim Ratcliffe before the first race today 26.9.
I won't pretend not to be biased. Mozzy knows well my role with American Magic in this cycle. I wanted to only make this adjacent point about the incorporation of a backup helmsman, on the side of the boat where he had not prepared for ahead of time. Recall that despite some months of knowledge that one challenger was sailing with dual helm/trimmers in AC36 (and it has proven to be superior), no other team in that cycle got rid of the helm crossing the boat. The systems were there, mirrored. It takes quite some ability to be a helm (and trimmer) of these boats in the best of times. In and elimination stage, it was just too much. Likewise, we will see in AC38, if recumbent is worth the difference in drag. I suspect more boats will either mix or have all cyclors recumbent, for aero purposes.
another excellent discussion. a couple of thoughts ... 1) how does the apparent wind (and the enormous impact of boat speed) change the "traditional" velocity diagram of these boats. ie how does this impact the speed vs distance trade off ? 2) what ? the kiwis won the lego model ?? geeze, the fix is in !
Excellent analysis. With all of the sail flutter it seems obvious that AM's way of handling the sail adjustments took more power than other teams. It seems unforgivable that a team would be burned by not having someone in solo control of the foils/ride height!!! One of the major factors that allowed NZ to win in Bermuda was their cyclor controlling the foils. AM combined this role onto either the driver or sail trimer, which obviously cost them stability and speed in maneuvers. It was noted by TS that they had an issue with the flight control system that was built into the boat way before it was launched. I would agree with other commenters that we most likely will see an upright front cyclor that can take on a sailing task during maneuvers and a back recumbent cyclor for less drag. I think AM was the boat design that GD feared the most at first reveal of the boats, but then realized they had deficiencies built into how the boat was sailed.
GCN have a couple of videos comparing recumbent bike to TT bikes and also road bikes, and both times they seemed to be more efficient. However this could be due to them being better in terms of aero, which obviously on an ac75 isnt a thing, except for the profile of the hull. The youth series is amazing, the AC40s look much more of a handful than the 75s and the fact they are fleet races makes for really exciting racing.
Performance recumbents are faster on the flats, downhill and rolling hill terrain if the hills are short. Only uphill are they slower. That's three out of four terrain types usually encountered by road cyclists. This is due to superior aerodynamics but in all cases, the position delivers less power to the drivetrain. As you stated, that will make for a small advantage in a sailing yacht and possible disadvantages that cannot be compensated for by slightly better streamlining.
@@jamesaron1967agree. I think AM must have looked at speed/watts when making the decision. Muscle memory and years of training on conventional is hard to re-educate. The other issue is the flywheel or lack of, don’t know the details, but can relate to a recumbent “spin out” when I was a “pilot” on one of the early human powered helicopter attempts. If there’s no real (or constant) resistance and no or limited ability to shift to a bigger gear or some sort of gearing the tendency was to max out spinning RPM and have a limited ability to put more power into the system…. Might be the same sort of problem here.
It is only the aero, the recumbent position is worse for power output and as a result recumbent bikes are really bad on climbs, GCN has a specific video about the AM cyclors and mentions this aspect.
I've been following this channel since the last AC, I'm surprised you haven't got more subs. I guess it's like music, some incredible artists gets a few million views while some cookie cutter overproduced crap gets billions. Hope you're around for the next AC...love you're work!👍
I'm not a sailor so correct me if I'm way off here. Tom Slingsby has a superb reputation as a sailor, and in his interviews went out of his way to support Lucas after Goodison was injured. But it seemed during races it felt he was airing a lot of frustration with his teammates. His communication seemed different to Ben/Dylan and Francesco/Jimmy who seemed to remain calm, even when mistakes were made. Is this fair or AITA?
Slingsby didn't ever seem comfortable during the cycle. Despite me being a Pom, you have to admire his hinest directness and he seemed genuinely disappointed with how the team performed when it mattered. Expect him to head up an Aussie team for AC38.
Hard to say from the small amount of data we have. I wish we had the choice for audio source in the streas. I would always choose the in-boat comms over the commentators.
@@richardmyers6054 Australia better have a team primed and ready for AC38. It is unacceptable that there hasn't been an Aussie AC effort for this many years.
Oh yes, coming through the defender trials. I guess you coukd say magic was a first time winner in 1870! Think it's slightly different to win as a first time challenger which is what I should have said
So other observation - I look at the side profile of American Magic (partnered with Airbus) and I see an airplane. I look at the side profile of luna rossa and ineos (partner Mercedes F1) and I see a lot more things that look like ground effect to me. I really wonder if American Magic ran into issues with aerodynamic pitch instability / ground effect instability given the rougher see state in Barcelona.
Hmm. What do you think you mean by "ground effect" here? It means exactly the opposite between aircraft (including flying boats) and race cars. Are you saying Luna Rossa and Ineos designed their boats to NOT fly? That would be wrong. Are you saying Luna Rossa and Ineos designed their boats to get extra lift from the hull form, once already flying on the foils... because what, an F1 team had that idea but Airbus didn't? Please clarify your comment.
I think Todd asks a good question. Ground effect comes into play when there is a small amount of air flow between the hull/car and the surface. While I don’t know that all of the boats weren’t flying too high to really engage GE (if you look at F1 the bottom of the cars are a few inches off the surface).
@@irtnyc ground effect means interaction of the body in airflow with the ground - generally. It is a shift in how an object moves through the air from a fully free stream situation (e.g., an airplane in cruise). It can be leveraged or come into play in a lot of ways. In F1 cars - it is used for downforce. In contrast, russia had a series of 'ground effect vehicles' called ekranoplans - planes that intentionally flew low to the ground and were designed to be efficient in doing so. It also effects 'normal' airplanes as you land...the wings interact with the ground. it doesn't matter what you use it for - those effects happen when moving vehicles interact with a surface. Aerodynamic stability is not a constant. It is a series of forces. A wing might have meaningful shift, or lots of shifts (which is worse), in the center of lift as it moves from free stream to ground effect behavior. My sense, having watched all the races, is that american magic tends to 'fly' higher than the other competitors. It is also shaped meaningfully different, including a less pronounced 'keel fin' (I'm sure theres a better name). Higher means less ground effect, but also a larger change in the influence of ground effect as the bottom of the boat increases adn decreases its gap to the water. Its a different design choice, but one that my engineering eye looks at and goes 'oh this has stability implications'. It can be faster, maybe much faster, but if you can't control it speed doesn't matter.
@@Gefionius I could forsee parallel design paths where you (option 1) try and fly high enough to avoid ground effect and design to that target or (option 2) try to leverage groudn effect and design to that target. Those choices could/would effect overall efficiency, but are also going to effect where the forces are applied. If the location of your aerodynamic center of pressure rapidly shifts as you enter into and out of ground effect you might be more efficient when flown well - but you make it harder to fly well. @mozzy did a video a while back on the 'fly by wire/autopilot' controls, which coudl be relevant here. aerodynamically unstable aircraft (especially fighter aircraft) are better at lots of things, but they typically require fly by wire systems because pilots can't control them fast enough and accurately enough. In the end - its all about balancing a series of dynamic forces. Both the force itself and the location of that force are changing constantly. How much the forces and location move for a given environmental or control are design criteria - and hard design criteria to get right. They are often discovered during testing - and often only during full scale testing (which is what the AC75s basically are) - because scaled aerodynamic correlation testing is a serious technical challenge. A story as an analogy, there is a frequency notch filter on the Boeing 777 control stick input (th-cam.com/video/vqFJpTXtHhU/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUsYm9laW5nIDc3NyBwaWxvdCBpbmR1Y2VkIG9zY2lsbGF0aW9uIHRlc3Rpbmc%3D). The dynamic interaction was discovered during testing by a pilot just doing pitch inputs to quickly.
One more add on to my comment. Controlling an unstable dynamic system inherently requires more control inputs. More control inputs woudl naturally use more power, which would exacerbate or jut look like a lack of power to move control surfaces.
I'm certainly not a racing sailor, but... from what I observed in course management, LRPP did a much better job of staying in the areas with stronger wind. On several occasions when videos showed areas of lighter winds, AM seemed to be headed for them, instead of chasing the better winds. I think I understand the tactics of management of course/wind position, but AM, it seems, could have challenged for a more dominate position in nearly every race. Or was this simply a result of their apparent desire to keep Lucas in a less demanding role.
This is match racing. The presence of another boat on the course constrains what you can do. Also more favourable position might require an extra tack or jybe which is slow and the tradeoff needs to evaluated. In critically light air tacking or jybing at any particular moment might not even be an option. AM did not actually make too many unforced errors. They sailed extremely well.
During some of the hours of coverage during the delays of the Youth Cup, I think Mozzy was filmed sitting around quayside with some of the British youth squad, not quite picking his nose, but not far from it.
Hi there, Thanks again for your amazing analysis ! For me, it really makes a huge difference following these cups! Regarding the question of the sail trimming. I have the impression that the main sail trimming is very abrupt. Wouldn't it be more efficient to have a smoother setting with less jerk on the airflow in the sail? Cheers Thierry
The Magic cyclors just looked uncomfortable like they were twisted in their cockpits and also like they hadn't been given enough space and the information screen was off to one side which didn't seem to help. It seemed that they dumped the aerodynamic lids not long into the racing.
Great video as always. On the Ineos foils I can’t help thinking that they were simply testing the extremes of the design space. Were your focus on developing simulation tools to evolve your race foil that might create more useful data to validate them, as opposed to iterating a similar concept like AM?
So the ARBR Cyclors are really only responsible for the energy, nothing else? Thank you for your always exciting insights! I hope there will be an analysis of all the teams after the Cup, as we know from the internal forums in Formula One. As half Italo-Swiss, I am now in an LRPP "fan" - and firmly hope that Switzerland will be at the next Cup
This protocol includes a commitment to using AC75s for next time. I think all the teams quite like it so I expect it to stay. Main points of difference seems to be about venue, additional race series, commercial rights and budget cap....
Tom I'd love to see you do a vid predicting/fantasising about future AC/SGP boat technology. A lot of people say 20yrs ago they'd never imagine these boats. No one speculating about 20 yrs forward. I'm thinking kites, AI, super-cavitating foils, 100 knots,??
The AC40 is nearly *$3M.* You can buy a ~60ft carbon performance catamaran with at least four cabins and a huge saloon for that cash; sail it around the world with your family and a couple of friends to amazing destinations. There's no logical reason to buy an AC40 unless you're a billionaire with no idea what to do with your money...
From the on board audio in what little videos I've seen of Team NZ, you can hear the hydraulics working about once a second, much more frequently than the other teams. Does that suggest some sort of automation?
The French were a massive disappointment for me. I'm still at a loss to explain what happened. They had the essentials but it never came together for them.
@@jamesaron1967yes it does. If you don't have time on the water, you don't discover as many problems, and when the lack of time on the water is due to the boat not finished, you lose the prep for the shore team as well. Not sure how much of a designteam the French had, but I'd imagine a very small one, and their shore crew and sailors had no input into the overall design (since it was designed by ETNZ). It was always obvious that they had close to 0 chance of making the LV Final, and only a very, very tiny chance to survive the Round Robins. I'd say they sailed well under the circumstances.
Really liked your comments regarding the perceived 'ownership' of the Cup by NYYC and the same 'bring it back to it's home' attitude of many UK campaigns. NUUC were custodians but by writing the Deed of Gift they essentially gave the Cup to the World... The Cup belongs to the sport, nothing more. On another note, has anyone drilled into why Giles was taken off helming RB3 for the Cup and was him gaining skipper role of the SailGP team the sweetener for the ease, as one or two have suggested. No idea why this hasn't been newsworthy in the Cup media...
I'm really surprised to see that, from a user interface perspective, most of the teams decided to go with simple buttons for their sail control setups. I'd have thought that some type of joystick or roller would have been more intuitive for smaller adjustments and allowed the trimmers to adjust multiple controls with one hand.
Micro-adjusting a joystick or trackball on a boat bouncing around at over 40kn would be pretty difficult. I would say that it's a bit short sighted to think that none of the teams would have spent any time thinking about the ergonomics of the boat controls...
@@molby199 I think that Glenn Ashby once mentioned that his controller for the wing on the ETNZ AC72 in the 2013 Cup was a bit like a game controller, but I don't know if it was joysticks of any sort. I fully agree with the sentiment that joysticks would probably not work super well, atleast based on the (not that many) hours I have in running small excavators. As soon as you get a bit too much vibration/rocking going in the cab it's very easy to shake the sensitive joysticks and that usually just exaggerate the vibrations :P Hydraulics can be very sensitive. I
I wouldn't even be surprised if there is some level of filtering going on in the PLC systems to smooth things out a bit. Afaik all the controls (except the steering wheels I'd assume) is fly by wire and with a fair amount of automation for linked controls. As a sailor, I don't quite like that, as an engineer with a passion for automation and CNC machines, I love it :P
@@Robinlarsson83 Agreed, I would imagine that there's a filtering component to smooth out the hydraulic outputs and a control line blending component too, for example sheeting in the traveler + adding leech tension from one user input. I posted about this on another video but I also wonder if any of the teams are using nearly fully automated maneuver programs. For example, a "tack" program where the board drops, the boat automatically sets an ideal cant angle for acceleration on the next tack, the boat automatically cracks the jib and sheets in the main traveler, and the mast automatically rotates to always be inline with AWA and reduce drag, all while feeding the helm a steering angle target so that the rate of turn is perfectly in sync with the sail trim through the maneuver. The advantages of this would be huge, since you could reduce crew workload significantly so that they can just focus on ride height and minor adjustments to trim through the turn. Ideally you could do this for everything from mark roundings, to start line accelerations, to gybes. It's really interesting stuff.
@@molby199 Yeah, there almost has to be a fair bit of filtering going on I guess :) As you say, there could be quite a lot of things automated in that sense, but I wonder how much they do? I haven't read the rules and the protocol for this edition of the Cup, but I know they are allowed some level of linking through the control system. At some point the actual sailing gets lost, and in some ways I almost think they've gone a bit too far already. But, it's not like it doesn't take a serious amount of skill, actual sailing skills, to sail these boats, not to mention racing them at 40-50knots! And it's not really the rope handling skills that decides the race winners in most normal boats, it's the trimming, steering and tactical skills of the sailors that do decide. One thing I don't like in this edition though is that we get so little info on who does what on the boat, especially in regards to sail trim. I assume it's the windward trimmer than trims the sails, presumably both mail and jib? And the leeward trimmer does the foil. But the helmsmen seem to at least handle the main traveler in manoeuvres, maybe during the rest of the legs as well? Does the leeward helmsman take on more of trimmer role, or are they purely tacticians when not helming? I wonder how well Luna Rossas trimmers can see their sails from their forward and very low position, compared to Ineos with trimmers all the way back. I'm a bit surprised that only LR went with those super slick windscreens, their trimmers have great visibility, on everything but their sails :P I assume they have a lot of cameras.
Yes, but the question is why. Something in the setup (Lack of flywheel/tandem link/seat to pedal drop) looked awkward. I'm not sure their training setup (seen on GCN) closely matched the real thing. Also very surprised their road training was on uprights - different muscle recruitment.
I assume they weren't getting enough rest between max efforts, Whenever they were forced into making multiple quick maneuvers they lost time. Their perceived aero advantage didn't offset the power loses with their recumbent cyclors.
Whether the AM recumbent cycle setup was the main issue or not we may never know as w/o data it's a fruitless endeavor. The Goodison injury was a disaster. Calabrese improved every day but let's call a spade a spade - his first day at helm was a disaster as AM won both starts but lost each race by whisker margins on his errors. It's interesting to look at starts and finishes for the AM vs LR semifinal. Slingsby admitted in an interview with PlanetSail that he thought if they could win the start and avoid any mistakes then a win was certain. But, that's not how it played out. Four of the races (3-4 for LR and 6-7 for AM) the start winner won the race. But the other four saw the start winner lose. Overall AM controlled five of the eight starts hitting the favored left side of the course but in two of those races LR lucked into favorable shifts and puffs which seemed a theme throughout as noted elsewhere online by Slingsby. LR may have the best VMG boat in the regatta but their tactics lack polish and better teams like INEOS and ETNZ won't gift wins to their opponents like AM.
@@cvanscho why? What's wrong with Shirley? She's a pretty accomplished Olympic sailor and while a bit too much of an Ainslie fan-girl at times, on whole she's pretty good? :)
@@Robinlarsson83 I guess all our ears hear differently; but I find her voice is painful to listen to, like the teacher scratching the chalk the wrong way on the blackboard... On a related note, I believe we should hear a lot less from the commentators, and much more from the boats etc.. Commentators just state the obvious. The only useful information from them is when penalties are awarded. YMMV of course..
The difference between the Youth Cup & the AC75 class races has me thinking about the relevance of the cyclors, particularly given that batteries are already present to power the foil arm movement. The Youth Cup fleet race format & the interaction with the sea state adds significantly to the spectacle, by comparison the AC75 fly largely above even confused seas, are lumbering (at times) to control, which adds risk & complexity to ensure that disaster does not result. If the AC75 sail trimming also went electric (or electric + parasitic), to a supplied component, might the racing be more about sailing spectacle than cycling or rowing...also if light air performance was improved by the weight reduction (absence of the cyclors netted against weight of power replacement systems) & improved sail control systems by elimination of some of the variability in power availability, we might see better racing.
There's undeniable logic in that. The thing is that sailing has a tradition of requiring a physical element , which arguably makes it a more complete sport. That said the AC has been happy to drop tradition to make for a more TV friendly show, so who knows?
@@firstnamelastname2669 I'm not necessarily against tradition, more thinking about the scale, weight & revolutionary performance of these flying vessels. The 40 foot versions seem more the right-size for televised spectacle than the majestic looking 75 footers (which might be more exotic poster art!). It will only take 1 boat-on-boat collision at speed for parties to realise that with these giant foiling things we're not in Kansas anymore. Light wind performance might be the area that the biggest improvements are continued to be made, which is handy because it is also likely much safer for participants than at the top end of the wind range.
That's where the philosophical aspect of sailing in the AC meets the controversial. Furthering the trend of applying technological innovation at the expense of human input alters the very nature of the sport. The endpoint of this tech progression leads to fully automated yachts that are remote-controlled like drones. Do we really want that? Do the legions of fans want it? Where do we draw the line...? I like the fact there are grinders or cyclors. It's an additional element to factor in when designing these yachts and selecting a crew. If we only have helmsman and trimmers, the AC might as well remove the AC75 entirely and just sail on the AC40 one-design class, because the only thing differentiating the two classes at that point would be size. Might as well save all the time and resources devoted to the AC75 and turn the AC into an annual one-design competitor series to SailGP.
@@jamesaron1967 That moment in the pre-start where INEOS narrowly avoided their opponent who was struggling with boat control, was a wake-up call to me regarding the risks of the sail controls systems lacking power when needed. When these boats get in close, at speed, they aren't far away from carnage (& I wonder if it was that ("Sir") Ben was still dealing with a relatively new helm partner & thus a bit more inclined to hover over the controls, was all that averted disaster?) If the electrical systems were upgraded to eliminate the grinding immediately after the AC and a regatta run to determine what impact the absence of grinders has, I think it would be a more interesting contest about boat performance & decision making....I'd also think there may be evolution of roles, much more active/specialised around wind management, light air performance & the observation of the opponent. Currently I'm thinking that 75 is just too big a boat, likely a legacy of (cough) displacement sailing, where longer waterline length was advantageous. Other variations that might be worth toying with the idea are allowing the class to develop a foil arm that lets the boat sail both starboard and port...so syndicates might choose 2 arm foiling, or single arm foiling. There might be some robustness of operation in having a vessel that has 2 arms, but either arm can do both directions...supplied component to a class, or one-design comp. I think the operation of SailGP has changed the horizon to a significant degree, where the participants are reliant upon the tools being pretty much the same. A class description that provides a bit more scope for teams to do their own thing, as the AC tends to suggest, it puts some emphasis on development & sailing to your own advantages, not so much the techniques emergent across the fleet. As Mozzy's videos demonstrate, there is quite some interest and enjoyment in the consideration of events both on & off the water. 3 years between cup cycles seems a challenge.
Pretty rich having an American boat accuse others of a self levelling / sell trimming system given the rumour from their successful comeback in San Fran.
@@weatheranddarkness The rumors that I've heard were that he approached NYYC and St. Francis Yacht Club first, and had his bid rejected by both. I've also heard that part of the reason that he went with Golden Gate Yacht Club specifically is because it is located directly next door to St. Francis. If true, talk about petty lol
ETNZ always new the US had a faster boat, they just couldn’t sail it. Their biggest mistake was giving them a day off. Once the Spithill came to grips with the boat it was all over. I remember watching at 7-1 and thinking we’ve just lost the AC. People thought I was a nutter, but I could see things changing, new we’d lost it, even posted on the AC app that was available at the time and got abused and laughed at.
@@TheEnzedone Other teams said the 'day off' was literally because ETNZ were out of money and out of resources and were repairing critical parts of the boat with only what they had left. If the American Spy chopper had not seen ETNZ foiling 3 months out when ETNZ were 20 miles off shore thinking they were safe from prying eyes then it wouldve been a different story for sure. The better win was the next one in Bermuda when Coutts excluded ETNZ from everything and they won.
It was pretty obvious Goodison was a big loss for American Magic and I’m on record in quite a few previous posts and on Reddit in saying as much. If Goody was on the boat and perhaps a touch of luck could have knocked Luna Rossa out.
I don't think they had it in them, the sailing mistakes were arguably worse in the prelim and RR phases. The semis were the best showing they gave Luna Rossa the whole regatta.
I agree Goodison is better and I like him but even if he never left I still think LR would have won, despite the possibility of AM offering better competition. LR just looked a cut above every other contender except the Brits, who also have a good yacht this time around.
@@jamesaron1967 Totally, I think Luna Rossa is a very good overall boat and probably slightly geared towards lighter winds. Better at tacking and acceleration and manoeuvrability. As for Ineos Britannia, that boat in my opinion has more upside as in potential speed. A bit like where we Kiwis were in the last cup. If they can unlock everything they have a good chance of defeating Luna Rossa. Cheers.
@@johnmartin7158 I too had this feeling. Ineos seems to me to be a more powerful boat and capable of climbing against the wind with a narrower angle in certain wind conditions (over 10 kn). L.R on the contrary seems to me to be more agile and is better in lighter winds.
@@johnmartin7158consider that Inoes did already beat Luna Rossa the last 2 matches they sailed, fairly convincingly iirc, I'd say that the Brits definitely have a very good chance of winning the LV Final :)
I get the impression that AM did not have sufficient constructive critisism with the design team. Yes it's old school thinking. One aspect that nobody seems to have mentioned too is the comfort of their rearward facing cyclors. You aren't going to get 110% out of aft-facing, poorly ventilated energy makers. I like Terry Hutchinson but he hasn't ever adopted that gritty ETNZ management approach where all team members are given almost an equal voice, however silly some ideas may seem. It's a known fact that weird ideas that might not often work, frequently open up ideas you may never have stumbled across
I was wondering about the human factors of the rearward facing "deck apes." Merely being able to SEE when an effort is needed must be motivating, and the reverse must be true as well.
@@markfisher7962 I know there will always be deniers, but seasickness is a very real thing too. The thing is being seasick does take on many shades of grey. I would always go for comfort because the motion of these boats can be quite extreme at times
@@grantsutherland6798 How significant would seasickness be on a foiling boat in a race that's well under an hour? They're always above the waves unless they make a mistake or the wind drops. I'd be shocked if it's a major factor.
@@jamesaron1967 there is still motion and in a position where you could be spatially disoriented, it may be way more significant than you think. Remember anyone doing hard work at sea, it's a killer. I e been on semi-submersibles at sea and that motion is awful when doing drills in lifeboats on deck, especially with being inside a capsule
@@grantsutherland6798 I don't know much about submersibles but I've been in rough seas for a lot longer than these races and I've never had seasickness. Of course, that's purely personal because everyone's physiology is different and some people don't get sick easily. However, I don't recall in any of the interviews where a team member mentioned anything like that. They mentioned being knocked around and high g-forces in the turns but nothing about seasickness. Not saying it doesn't happen, but how prevalent is it actually?
😊 sort of like cars... -INEOS turned up with an Aston Marten -LUNA turned up with a Ferrari & NYYC turned up with a Corvette YIP-KIWIS are gonna needa McLaren!
In hindsight things are always easier to see. Re AM it could be argued that Slingsby and Goodison were the most talented pair of helms in the competition. I think the boat was very good and has a lot of potential but it was a little too radical and difficult to sail and as such represented a risk and a distraction. It was a strategic error to go down that path. When you have the best drivers just give them a conservative, easy, reliable boat that's on par with the competition and let them go to work to create some of their own magic. You could argue that Outteridge and Burling are just as or even more talented but they are handicapped by not getting as much racing. In my books AM was potentially the strongest boat in the field but Goodison's injury was just too much of a blow. I now like LR's chances against Ineos and even TNZ. It's going to come down to who keeps their head together best - unless someone magically pulls a few extra knots out their bag of tricks (which I seriously doubt).
I'm not a sailor and am new to this brand of the Cup but I don't understand many things about these boats. they're not really sailboats...they're more like sailfoils. The hull is simply a systems platform. The instant these boats drop into the water they're like bricks. And where are the sailors handling lines and changing sails? And what is the role of bicyclists on a sailboat? If these are the boats that are sailed why aren't these systems totally automated as they are on the youth Americas Cup (which to me is really exciting to watch...more so than the bigger boats)? I'm not trying to be critical...really. I just don't understand so much of it. To me a boat is a boat when it's in the water...not flying above it (even the hulls are designed for aerodynamics instead of displacement dynamics). just confused is all. btw, I love this kind of analysis...thanks for the effort
It would require many paragraphs to answer all of your questions to the extent they deserve. Briefly, much of what you're inquiring about is borderline philosophical and controversial. Has been since the AC began permitting foiling yachts a decade or more ago. The controversy with foiling as opposed to displacement sailing is in the interest of attaining much higher speeds and attracting more viewers to the AC. Foiling in general is very popular as a way to sail these days. Incidentally, these yachts when in the water seem to sail faster than the old displacement AC yachts given the same wind speeds. They may appear _relatively_ lethargic in the water when comparing their foiling speeds but are not slow. Yes, the hull is largely a platform where all the systems and sailors are located. Some people liken them more to fuselages than hulls. The rigging (sails) is handled by hydraulics operated by buttons. The cyclors provide oil pressure to operate the hydraulics which control the rigging. The reason the AC75 has cyclors is that the AC wanted to retain some physical connection to the operations of these yachts. Before the cyclors, there were grinders, who used arm power to accomplish the same job but they were still moving oil to provide pressure for the hydraulic systems. They changed to cyclors in this edition to lower the overall weight by reducing the crew complement (legs > arms). This allowed for better sailing in light wind. The Youth and the upcoming Women's races are in a different boat class to simplify the operation for these sailors. Also, being much smaller, their sail plan provides less power and interior space, necessitating a 'skeleton crew' to keep weight at a minimum. Thus, only helmsmen and trimmers are onboard.
@@jamesaron1967 thanks for the respectful reply. Your explanation answered a lot of questions. I think that the tech involved to lift a multi-ton boat out of the water on a single wing is fascinating and the speeds they reach are crazy fast. It's a bit of a relief to know that I'm not the only one who may have qualms about the "purity" of these boats...at my age I tend to see things in the light of the past. You're correct about getting more viewers...I certainly have been following these races and have become a fan of all of them. All tradition aside it's just amazing to see these boats ripping through the water on just a small contact point with the water. Thanks again.
@@lonewolf77782 No problem, glad I was able to answer some of your questions. Looking back at my comment, I realize that I could have been a little clearer with some of my responses. So, if you have further questions I'll see if I could address them better. Enjoy the current AC as much as you can and try to view all of the races including the Youth and Women's racing if you have the time. I don't know how much longer we will be able to see these amazing yachts racing. Despite their appeal among sailors and non-sailors alike, there seems to be a growing upswell of negativity among the purists who despise the design concept and don't like foiling in general. It's conceivable that this might be the last time we see these yachts. I hope not but it's difficult to predict the future of this sport.
I have heard that inside these boats temperatures reach around 80 degrees Celsius. I try to imagine what hell it must have been for the cyclors inside and with little or none fresh air to breathe.
If USA wants to get competitive, they need to sack Hutchinson. More posturing and posing than leadership - - "all hat, no cattle." Normally, I don't root for teams from Angry Island (football), but I would be equally happy with Ineos winning (steady progress, honest innovation, grit), or Luna Rossa for functional elegance and seamanship. Also love the idea that the Kiwis maintain their dynasty. As a fan, I can't lose! As a (former) native of Pensacola, FL, I can attest to the fact that the longer you stay there, the lower your IQ becomes. It's a failed sh¡thole of a has-been, small-minded intellectual wasteland - - hardly the type of drumbeat and vibe needed for animating and inspiring a high-tech, high-performance team. Literally any Florida gulf coast city south of the armpit would be better. Being in Pensacola is like drowning in a vat of pure sad.
Just couldn't go pass am cyclors positioning seem to be disconnected .as you say many factors this was a link that felt looked not max out on output compared to other teams did like the way they fought back am was on a charge there boat harder to keep the power speed at critical time s definitely had every one take notice. I think they sailed best they could with boat they had .
The real problem is stopping boats from using this Gemini program and having access to it from outside without other boats knowing Larosa was always in the wind, even if it made no sense to drive out and you cannot see that between 5 kn or 7 kn on the water from so far out I believe that the top boats are using from outside of what they’re allowed to see where the pressure is. American magic was always racing. Larosa was always pressure. It seemed that the data showed I find that suspicious.
Can't blame one for this conclusion. AM won 5 of 8 starts but LR inevitably was better positioned for shifts consistently. Was it just great "luck" or something else as proposed herein?
AM was a Charley Foxtrot from the get go. Too many cooks in the kitchen, divergent strategies among the so-called leaders and the big headed NYYC types made their effort almost doomed from the start. Ever since the NYYC lost the America’s Cup they’ve been desperate to get it back and in that desperation they haven’t made sound decisions on their team and strategy. They probably had the boat design but when it was all put together they didn’t have a cohesive team to pull it off. I’m sure they’ll be back as their pockets are extremely deep but they need to appoint one head of the operation and let the professionals do their job without meddling from the money people.
Yes I will never forget an interview with the still distraught Dean Barker with him saying yes ETNZ looked at that (some sort of automatic system) but we thought it was outside the rules. So it has always seemed to me that there was some sort of autopilot system installed on the US boat during the lay day. So if now someone is playing that way perhaps we shouldnt be surprised. After all it is the AM Cup! But it has to be said that compared to all the earlier Cups I have watched eg those with DC, these recent matches seem like a very fair playing field with good sportsmanship and a minimum of grief - even Jimmy Spithill has been very reserved. Go ETNZ!!
Why does everyone seem to think that recumbent produces less power than upright? I could have sworn that pro cyclists consider recumbent able to generate more power than upright.
I dont think there was anything easi in alinghi winning the cup. Coming on a well established design rule with veteran teams is a big feat. I do think you cant compare Alinghi 2024 and what it was 20 years ago. Particularly the will of the ceo is certainly not the same. On the contrary i think we see a lot of mistakes and problems from the top teams, i think some genius, lets say an adrian newey of sailing with the right backing could have swiped this cup.
keep up with this way of thinking ! perhaps we can get rid of rowers and cyclists and simply train actual sailors to meet the fitness requirements. Clearly its a better way of thinking as LR, GBR, and etnz all have sailing talent on the pumps
Not particularly pertinent to this video, but am I the only one who thinks that the AC40s are so much more exciting to watch? They look as though they are on fast forward compared to the lumbering leviathans that are the AC75.
I don't think it's a question of yacht class. It's fleet racing versus match racing. There's no question it will be more interesting watching all the teams racing together compared to only two at a time.
Obviously the fleet racing helps, but as speaking as a long time sailor of high performance dinghies the way the AC40s handle and behave is way more engaging.
It's weird because in the GCN interviews, they talked a big game that they could pump 500W for a 30' and sprint up to 1000-1500W, but when we got peeks into the power numbers during races, they were only doing like 150-300W most of the time, with sprints up to 500W! I do believe those guys were jacked, they have former Olympic track cyclists and elite rowers on there, but still, it makes me ask questions.
@@JMurph2015 Exactly. I've been saying for months that the recumbent position cannot approach the traditional upright position in power output. Magic's claim of a 10% difference was so against conventional wisdom among recumbent cyclists that it had to be pure PR. That said, I don't think it's the reason AM was eliminated. I believe LR is a better team overall and their yacht is faster. Even ETNZ will have a difficult time if LR faces them in the finals. They have a very strong chance of winning the AC37 and I'm saying this as a NZ fan.
@@jamesaron1967 Well, one other thing though was that a lot of the other teams also seemed to be more in the same 300-500 watt territory, but they also didn't hype up their cyclors as much. I don't know if the power meters on the boats were just shite or what, but the numbers we actually saw during races were more like advanced hobbyist racer (Cat 1) and less like Olympic rower / track cyclist. I only saw a few bursts over like 600W (I think we did see one of the LR or Britannia guys do like 1200 or 1500 watts briefly, which was chad!). So I'm not sure what to make of that.
@@jamesaron1967 I also wonder if the rumored tandem setup on AM was causing issues. In that interview with GCN, Si asked "what happens if the dude behind you stops pedaling?" to which they responded something like "well you're pretty much f***ed". They had that shock loss to Alinghy after subbing their whole team of cyclors from the race prior. Then the next day, they only subbed two of the four cyclors between races. That seems to imply that something was going on with two of their cyclors that meant they weren't being subbed in the next day. The tandem setup would definitely exacerbate any difference in wattage because they couldn't each go at their own pace and put out what power they can. They would have had to roughly match power or the entire load would transfer onto the person pushing harder.
I suspect the lack of flywheel effect is a factor there. Have you ever used a cheap 'resistance band' trainer? It's weird how the lack of smoothness makes it so difficult to put out power.
Alinghi is an money mercenaries business club only! Creepy alinghi better fitted out new the Aihe and hade a better yacht😅 Then they back box mast destroyer!
LOL, I was wondering myself if _Te Aihe_ was given the latest tech packages and lost some weight would it have been a better contender. Certainly looks a lot better!
I'm not a fan of these freaky boats, but they are sailing better this goround. They are starting to find respectability. Let's see them race across the Alenuihaha Channel to see if they are actually sea going boats like the original schooner America.
@@jomgelborn "very popular" as if it isn't getting the same mediocre viewership it always does. And I guess you're just ignoring designs like the f50 producing faster, more consistent, and generally better racing
@@dread6554 The F50, a direct descendant of the AC50s, will soon incorporate T-foils inspired by the AC75s, highlighting how the America's Cup consistently drives innovation in sailing, and that's easier to do if audience numbers don't drive every decision. I love SailGP for its thrilling fleet racing, and the Youth America's Cup with the AC40s has been fantastic. However, match racing will always struggle to match the excitement of fleet racing for viewers. Even so, the America's Cup remains a leading platform for advancing the sport, despite its match-racing format. Interestingly, Grant Dalton hinted that if they win again, fleet racing might be considered for some regattas in the future, though not immediately. Just imagine 10 AC75s in a fleet race-it would be fun to watch!
Ineos will be praying that there are no light wind days. Their performance in light wind has been very poor in light wind. That is probably the reason why they selected to race the second race on the first day of the semi final when the wind was forecast to build a bit more.
@TheAllEngineering Maybe, but the extra Ineos shed time will have remoded the boat to be closer to what is anticipated. The data gathered is enormous. The learning curve remains steep. If either team cracks the code, minimises AND gets a couple of lucky breaks, then the other team will look ordinary...... I honestly think it is too close to call authoritatively. Hoping for a nail biter, either way......
@Si-jk4iy Mother nature always wins, you can anticipate what you like but if she throws some light wind days in I think Ineos will struggle. They struggled early on as well as later in the light winds and really did not improve much over the time so far. We will see, it will be more interesting if it is not a one sided affair.
Thanks to the many thousands of you who entered for the Taihoro lego model! Unfortunately there could be only one winner! Congrats Tony!
I hope Tony's kit is not missing a foil component from bag #6 like the one someone gave me was! Luckily a quick trip to the local Lego store got me fixed up. It really is a fantastic model.
one of the things I'm sure you noticed but didn't comment on is that the AM cyclers as a virtue of their recumbent position seem to be more reliant on hand grips for power output, probably making it impossible for them to be fiddling with too many controls. I remember watching the global cycling network video and anytime you see them in a recumbent position they always have a real tight grip on some handles looking like they are pushing against them really hard, whereas hands aren't that important for upright cycling power output unless you are out of your seat sprinting / dancing.
Good observation
I thought the recumbent cyclors looked very uncomfortable and seemed to be awkwardly struggling to peddle. To fiddle with buttons would have been difficult I agree. And they couldn't see anything and didn't even realize other cyclors were performing sailing/trimming tasks until I watched this video! Even the screen they did have was off to one side, so they had their heads turned much of the time.
@@DriverDad58 I think your point about the recumbent cyclors not having the ability to see negated the possibility of having any controls more than any other reason. They'd need displays or windows to see what's going on outside for controls.
I noticed this as well. Combined with zero visibility down in the boat it made me wonder if recumbent was too much of a sacrifice for reasons outside of power
yeah, good point. They seemed to only have some button which I presume were for switching between filling the accumulator and direct pump to a control
Great analysis thank you, it was Team NZ in Bermuda who used the cyclors for flight control, allowing Peter Burling to focus just on steering the boat.
Love the breakdown Mozzy, great stuff as always and looking forward to more during the finals. I wish we could afford to send you down to Barcelona for live coverage!
Congrats fellow Kiwi on winning the prize. Bad luck for me and good luck for ya.
Lots of good info in this video mate. The have a mate who was a big road cycling racer who also races IQ Foil class with me, and he said the the recumbent cycle position doesn’t generate anywhere near the same kind of power as the traditional position. It looked to me like they were struggling for power to stay on the foils in the light stuff especially.
Surprising such a basic design decision would be the clearly wrong one!
Yep, more people are finally saying that and the revealed wattages corroborate it.
It was always a tradeoff between power and packaging. It's easy to say in hindsight that it was the wrong decision but I don't see any of you designing AC75's so I wouldn't put too much weight on your expertise.
I think allowing them to push buttons to aid the helmsman and flight controller is a big advantage that AM didn’t have, they focused too much on aerodynamic’s not realising preventing a touchdown is infinitely more important
Peak power, yes, I can see that. Overall and over time, not sure why this would be true. Many world records are held by folks riding in the recumbent position (top speed, race across America, human powered airplane, etc,). Often this has to do with the aerodynamic benefits of the rider being reclined rather than the position itself. Not sure if actual power output data for traditional vs recumbent position is available.
clear and competent analysis, as usual.
In motorsport you often have a mark button in the vehicle that the driver can press to put a marker in the data log for later analysis, I wonder if this is the same function as shown in the video. It's used so that you can quickly find that bit of data during the debrief and dig further in, rather than relying on the driver recalling where it happened. On some logger systems it can also trigger a burst logging function where the channels for a set number of seconds either side of the data point are logged at a higher rate so that you get more data.
The keypads that they are using are Greyhill CAN keypads, so they need to be talking to another device in the boat to work, they only transmit the button press, and then the external device works with that press to control the function. they can also receive messaging over the CAN Bus to activate the three LED's above the buttons.
Yeah, that's an interesting idea. Could well be that
Amazing recon and analysis.
Great breakdown 👌
Glad you liked it!
Since ETNZ in Bermuda split Helm from Flight control, and LRPP split helm to 2 roles, the trajectory of more Brains involved is better, has clearly been faster than overloading individuals. So recumbent cylors who produce less energy and cannot contribute in other helpful ways are never going to be systemically more valuable than the tiny aero gains that lying back might give....... But everyone is a Genius with Hindsight
Nice video and analyst ..
What interest me is the sreamline hull of AM not make big speed different on straight than others bulky hull like BRITA. So their advantage (AM) on straight line (more speed assumption) can not replace lack of cyclor power and control.
Than I do think the biggest drag of AC75 is their big main sail, jib (air drag) and foil, rudder (hydro drag) from long way (and their design are pretty similiar cross section accros team) vs the hull, so as long their hull not a big boxy high drag it will not make any different.
To summarise, the boats aren't equal enough for the marginal aero gains to be meaningful.
Great analysis, good insights. I remain astonished that the NYYC effort did not succeed further. Well-funded, lots of experience from the first effort, high-caliber sailing team, but the boat seemed to have minor weaknesses and the team made surprising mistakes.
After the investment in design, trials, training and testing you would have high expectations for the team, yet It is racing that catalyzes potential into a coherent package. On the downside it also exposes unfound weakness and concealed risk. With regard to American Magic I cant imagine anyone sat in a risk assessment meeting and suggested that "one of the skippers might fall down a hatch and crack four ribs taking them offline for many weeks". Its speculative but the boats were close and losing Goody could well have been the difference between winning and losing. Thats not to downplay the fabulous talent of Lucas Calabrese who performed superbly given the circumstances but it has to have made a difference when the margins were so tight, what learnings will teams take from that incident ?
@@number1genoa but did Goody really do better than Calabrese? AM lost 2 out of 2 against LRPP when Goody was still sailing (won once and lost once against Ineos, and lost against ETNZ). With Lucas they went 5/3 with LRPP and with tighter races.
Experience, but not sufficient with AC75s
@@famillebarrow8664for sure, but as Riffriff points out, AM didn't actually do noticeable worse without Goody onboard, and arguably actually sailed better, at least towards the end of the Semi.
Not to take anything away from Calabrese or Goodison, but maybe placing a higher burden on Slingsby actually made them perform better?
Slingsby is arguably one of the very best, if not the best, foiling helm in the world. His record on Sail GP is extremely impressive.
I doubt that Slingsby will be sailing with AM next Cup, if there is any chance he can get an Aussie team together, and having Kyle Langford and others from his Sail GP team with him.
There really seemed to be a fair bit of frustration from him on the boat, perhaps a lack of team cohesion?
Terrific insights into the Alinghi and AMagic campaigns, much of which I've not heard from anywhere else! Between you and Matt at PlanetSail, this sailing event has been so fascinating to follow. Also, I whole heartedly agree that the AC40's in the youth ACup has been a lot of fun to watch too. I wish I could get away to Barcelona for a week or two of spectating.
I was going to make a standalone video on the youth AC... but there is almost to much action to get your head around!
Perhaps an analysis of hours on the water for each team, prior to the event, will offer a guide to the final pecking order? @@MozzySails
Really interesting perspective on NYYC
Thanks, Mozzy. Fascinating!
Thanks for the thoughtful analysis 👏👏👏
Great video and lots of different perspective view of the teams
Great Video Mozzy, I love the AC and the LVC I don't have a clue about Yacht racing, thanks for sharing
Glad to help
Great article. Balanced and covers a number of possible causes. On a different note I wonder what your take on the Dock Walk interviews just before each race. It's a modern thing to have more coverage but the itch in my mind is that it inadvertently introduces new and awkward thought processes before a tight and tense race. As a coach and instructor of two different elite level sports it was something we avoided like the plague. Nothing new in the mind for the players and participants in the lead up to the competition or event was our preference. I noticed a nervous glance by Ainslie toward Jim Ratcliffe before the first race today 26.9.
I won't pretend not to be biased. Mozzy knows well my role with American Magic in this cycle. I wanted to only make this adjacent point about the incorporation of a backup helmsman, on the side of the boat where he had not prepared for ahead of time.
Recall that despite some months of knowledge that one challenger was sailing with dual helm/trimmers in AC36 (and it has proven to be superior), no other team in that cycle got rid of the helm crossing the boat. The systems were there, mirrored. It takes quite some ability to be a helm (and trimmer) of these boats in the best of times. In and elimination stage, it was just too much.
Likewise, we will see in AC38, if recumbent is worth the difference in drag. I suspect more boats will either mix or have all cyclors recumbent, for aero purposes.
another excellent discussion. a couple of thoughts ...
1) how does the apparent wind (and the enormous impact of boat speed) change the "traditional" velocity diagram of these boats. ie how does this impact the speed vs distance trade off ?
2) what ? the kiwis won the lego model ?? geeze, the fix is in !
Enjoy your presentation and indepth information. Thankyou.
Maungaturoto New Zealand.
Great analysis as always! Thanks for your work.
Fantastic insight filling in all the gaps..Thank you.
Excellent analysis. With all of the sail flutter it seems obvious that AM's way of handling the sail adjustments took more power than other teams. It seems unforgivable that a team would be burned by not having someone in solo control of the foils/ride height!!! One of the major factors that allowed NZ to win in Bermuda was their cyclor controlling the foils. AM combined this role onto either the driver or sail trimer, which obviously cost them stability and speed in maneuvers. It was noted by TS that they had an issue with the flight control system that was built into the boat way before it was launched. I would agree with other commenters that we most likely will see an upright front cyclor that can take on a sailing task during maneuvers and a back recumbent cyclor for less drag. I think AM was the boat design that GD feared the most at first reveal of the boats, but then realized they had deficiencies built into how the boat was sailed.
GCN have a couple of videos comparing recumbent bike to TT bikes and also road bikes, and both times they seemed to be more efficient. However this could be due to them being better in terms of aero, which obviously on an ac75 isnt a thing, except for the profile of the hull. The youth series is amazing, the AC40s look much more of a handful than the 75s and the fact they are fleet races makes for really exciting racing.
Performance recumbents are faster on the flats, downhill and rolling hill terrain if the hills are short. Only uphill are they slower. That's three out of four terrain types usually encountered by road cyclists. This is due to superior aerodynamics but in all cases, the position delivers less power to the drivetrain. As you stated, that will make for a small advantage in a sailing yacht and possible disadvantages that cannot be compensated for by slightly better streamlining.
@@jamesaron1967agree. I think AM must have looked at speed/watts when making the decision. Muscle memory and years of training on conventional is hard to re-educate. The other issue is the flywheel or lack of, don’t know the details, but can relate to a recumbent “spin out” when I was a “pilot” on one of the early human powered helicopter attempts. If there’s no real (or constant) resistance and no or limited ability to shift to a bigger gear or some sort of gearing the tendency was to max out spinning RPM and have a limited ability to put more power into the system…. Might be the same sort of problem here.
It is only the aero, the recumbent position is worse for power output and as a result recumbent bikes are really bad on climbs, GCN has a specific video about the AM cyclors and mentions this aspect.
I've been following this channel since the last AC, I'm surprised you haven't got more subs.
I guess it's like music, some incredible artists gets a few million views while some cookie cutter overproduced crap gets billions. Hope you're around for the next AC...love you're work!👍
I'm not a sailor so correct me if I'm way off here. Tom Slingsby has a superb reputation as a sailor, and in his interviews went out of his way to support Lucas after Goodison was injured. But it seemed during races it felt he was airing a lot of frustration with his teammates. His communication seemed different to Ben/Dylan and Francesco/Jimmy who seemed to remain calm, even when mistakes were made. Is this fair or AITA?
Slingsby didn't ever seem comfortable during the cycle. Despite me being a Pom, you have to admire his hinest directness and he seemed genuinely disappointed with how the team performed when it mattered. Expect him to head up an Aussie team for AC38.
Hard to say from the small amount of data we have. I wish we had the choice for audio source in the streas. I would always choose the in-boat comms over the commentators.
@@richardmyers6054 Australia better have a team primed and ready for AC38. It is unacceptable that there hasn't been an Aussie AC effort for this many years.
Imagine if Jimmy Spithill were to win it from here, starboard helm of an Italian team, wouldn’t that just fire up Australia AC38! 😆
Great job Mozzy, fyi, America³ won the America's Cup in 1992 against Il Moro de Venenzia it was thier first America's Cup attempt as well.
Oh yes, coming through the defender trials. I guess you coukd say magic was a first time winner in 1870! Think it's slightly different to win as a first time challenger which is what I should have said
So other observation - I look at the side profile of American Magic (partnered with Airbus) and I see an airplane. I look at the side profile of luna rossa and ineos (partner Mercedes F1) and I see a lot more things that look like ground effect to me. I really wonder if American Magic ran into issues with aerodynamic pitch instability / ground effect instability given the rougher see state in Barcelona.
Hmm. What do you think you mean by "ground effect" here? It means exactly the opposite between aircraft (including flying boats) and race cars. Are you saying Luna Rossa and Ineos designed their boats to NOT fly? That would be wrong. Are you saying Luna Rossa and Ineos designed their boats to get extra lift from the hull form, once already flying on the foils... because what, an F1 team had that idea but Airbus didn't?
Please clarify your comment.
I think Todd asks a good question. Ground effect comes into play when there is a small amount of air flow between the hull/car and the surface. While I don’t know that all of the boats weren’t flying too high to really engage GE (if you look at F1 the bottom of the cars are a few inches off the surface).
@@irtnyc ground effect means interaction of the body in airflow with the ground - generally. It is a shift in how an object moves through the air from a fully free stream situation (e.g., an airplane in cruise). It can be leveraged or come into play in a lot of ways. In F1 cars - it is used for downforce. In contrast, russia had a series of 'ground effect vehicles' called ekranoplans - planes that intentionally flew low to the ground and were designed to be efficient in doing so. It also effects 'normal' airplanes as you land...the wings interact with the ground. it doesn't matter what you use it for - those effects happen when moving vehicles interact with a surface.
Aerodynamic stability is not a constant. It is a series of forces. A wing might have meaningful shift, or lots of shifts (which is worse), in the center of lift as it moves from free stream to ground effect behavior.
My sense, having watched all the races, is that american magic tends to 'fly' higher than the other competitors. It is also shaped meaningfully different, including a less pronounced 'keel fin' (I'm sure theres a better name). Higher means less ground effect, but also a larger change in the influence of ground effect as the bottom of the boat increases adn decreases its gap to the water. Its a different design choice, but one that my engineering eye looks at and goes 'oh this has stability implications'. It can be faster, maybe much faster, but if you can't control it speed doesn't matter.
@@Gefionius I could forsee parallel design paths where you (option 1) try and fly high enough to avoid ground effect and design to that target or (option 2) try to leverage groudn effect and design to that target.
Those choices could/would effect overall efficiency, but are also going to effect where the forces are applied. If the location of your aerodynamic center of pressure rapidly shifts as you enter into and out of ground effect you might be more efficient when flown well - but you make it harder to fly well.
@mozzy did a video a while back on the 'fly by wire/autopilot' controls, which coudl be relevant here. aerodynamically unstable aircraft (especially fighter aircraft) are better at lots of things, but they typically require fly by wire systems because pilots can't control them fast enough and accurately enough.
In the end - its all about balancing a series of dynamic forces. Both the force itself and the location of that force are changing constantly. How much the forces and location move for a given environmental or control are design criteria - and hard design criteria to get right. They are often discovered during testing - and often only during full scale testing (which is what the AC75s basically are) - because scaled aerodynamic correlation testing is a serious technical challenge.
A story as an analogy, there is a frequency notch filter on the Boeing 777 control stick input (th-cam.com/video/vqFJpTXtHhU/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUsYm9laW5nIDc3NyBwaWxvdCBpbmR1Y2VkIG9zY2lsbGF0aW9uIHRlc3Rpbmc%3D). The dynamic interaction was discovered during testing by a pilot just doing pitch inputs to quickly.
One more add on to my comment. Controlling an unstable dynamic system inherently requires more control inputs. More control inputs woudl naturally use more power, which would exacerbate or jut look like a lack of power to move control surfaces.
Love to hear on your thoughts to the fine and what your analysis shows
I'm certainly not a racing sailor, but... from what I observed in course management, LRPP did a much better job of staying in the areas with stronger wind. On several occasions when videos showed areas of lighter winds, AM seemed to be headed for them, instead of chasing the better winds. I think I understand the tactics of management of course/wind position, but AM, it seems, could have challenged for a more dominate position in nearly every race. Or was this simply a result of their apparent desire to keep Lucas in a less demanding role.
This is match racing. The presence of another boat on the course constrains what you can do. Also more favourable position might require an extra tack or jybe which is slow and the tradeoff needs to evaluated. In critically light air tacking or jybing at any particular moment might not even be an option. AM did not actually make too many unforced errors. They sailed extremely well.
During some of the hours of coverage during the delays of the Youth Cup, I think Mozzy was filmed sitting around quayside with some of the British youth squad, not quite picking his nose, but not far from it.
ha, really, I never saw that!
Hi there,
Thanks again for your amazing analysis ! For me, it really makes a huge difference following these cups!
Regarding the question of the sail trimming. I have the impression that the main sail trimming is very abrupt. Wouldn't it be more efficient to have a smoother setting with less jerk on the airflow in the sail?
Cheers
Thierry
The Magic cyclors just looked uncomfortable like they were twisted in their cockpits and also like they hadn't been given enough space and the information screen was off to one side which didn't seem to help. It seemed that they dumped the aerodynamic lids not long into the racing.
yeah i noticed how one of the AM cyclors looked rather useless down in his tomb inside the boat (-8
they did keep the cockpit covers, but they were turned black for the semi finals
@@MozzySailslooked like they were different covers to me, felt like a different style of "honeycomb", but I can't say I investigated it very deeply 😅
Great video as always. On the Ineos foils I can’t help thinking that they were simply testing the extremes of the design space. Were your focus on developing simulation tools to evolve your race foil that might create more useful data to validate them, as opposed to iterating a similar concept like AM?
So the ARBR Cyclors are really only responsible for the energy, nothing else? Thank you for your always exciting insights! I hope there will be an analysis of all the teams after the Cup, as we know from the internal forums in Formula One. As half Italo-Swiss, I am now in an LRPP "fan" - and firmly hope that Switzerland will be at the next Cup
So Mozzy do you think ETNZ are using the cyclors in a similar way to LR and Ineos?
I was wondering the same thing.
Great Insight , very interesting .
A little off topic: Any idea how long the AC75s will be around?
This protocol includes a commitment to using AC75s for next time. I think all the teams quite like it so I expect it to stay. Main points of difference seems to be about venue, additional race series, commercial rights and budget cap....
@@MozzySails Great! Love these.
Tom I'd love to see you do a vid predicting/fantasising about future AC/SGP boat technology. A lot of people say 20yrs ago they'd never imagine these boats. No one speculating about 20 yrs forward. I'm thinking kites, AI, super-cavitating foils, 100 knots,??
AC40 are great little boats and I could see a broad market if the price is reasonable.
The AC40 is nearly *$3M.* You can buy a ~60ft carbon performance catamaran with at least four cabins and a huge saloon for that cash; sail it around the world with your family and a couple of friends to amazing destinations. There's no logical reason to buy an AC40 unless you're a billionaire with no idea what to do with your money...
I think the question is between a TP52 or Fast40, or even some Cape31 owners or an AC40 in a 'pool' fleet that does a med cup.
Great video! Thx!
From the on board audio in what little videos I've seen of Team NZ, you can hear the hydraulics working about once a second, much more frequently than the other teams. Does that suggest some sort of automation?
Allinghi did well considering it was their first cup. A hell of a lot better than the French team.
The French were a massive disappointment for me. I'm still at a loss to explain what happened. They had the essentials but it never came together for them.
@@jamesaron1967 The answer is in the calendar. Just look at the number of days spent sailing.
@@AnttiBrax Yes, that is indeed true but it doesn't explain all the technical problems.
@@jamesaron1967yes it does. If you don't have time on the water, you don't discover as many problems, and when the lack of time on the water is due to the boat not finished, you lose the prep for the shore team as well.
Not sure how much of a designteam the French had, but I'd imagine a very small one, and their shore crew and sailors had no input into the overall design (since it was designed by ETNZ).
It was always obvious that they had close to 0 chance of making the LV Final, and only a very, very tiny chance to survive the Round Robins.
I'd say they sailed well under the circumstances.
good call Tom.. as we know that the kiwis had their cyclors had extra duties during the Bermuda cup
Really liked your comments regarding the perceived 'ownership' of the Cup by NYYC and the same 'bring it back to it's home' attitude of many UK campaigns. NUUC were custodians but by writing the Deed of Gift they essentially gave the Cup to the World...
The Cup belongs to the sport, nothing more.
On another note, has anyone drilled into why Giles was taken off helming RB3 for the Cup and was him gaining skipper role of the SailGP team the sweetener for the ease, as one or two have suggested. No idea why this hasn't been newsworthy in the Cup media...
Very very interesting video as always. Great insights. Thanks a lot!!
But duuuude, what are your predictions for the final?
I'm really surprised to see that, from a user interface perspective, most of the teams decided to go with simple buttons for their sail control setups. I'd have thought that some type of joystick or roller would have been more intuitive for smaller adjustments and allowed the trimmers to adjust multiple controls with one hand.
Micro-adjusting a joystick or trackball on a boat bouncing around at over 40kn would be pretty difficult.
I would say that it's a bit short sighted to think that none of the teams would have spent any time thinking about the ergonomics of the boat controls...
@@molby199 I think that Glenn Ashby once mentioned that his controller for the wing on the ETNZ AC72 in the 2013 Cup was a bit like a game controller, but I don't know if it was joysticks of any sort.
I fully agree with the sentiment that joysticks would probably not work super well, atleast based on the (not that many) hours I have in running small excavators. As soon as you get a bit too much vibration/rocking going in the cab it's very easy to shake the sensitive joysticks and that usually just exaggerate the vibrations :P
Hydraulics can be very sensitive. I
I wouldn't even be surprised if there is some level of filtering going on in the PLC systems to smooth things out a bit.
Afaik all the controls (except the steering wheels I'd assume) is fly by wire and with a fair amount of automation for linked controls. As a sailor, I don't quite like that, as an engineer with a passion for automation and CNC machines, I love it :P
@@Robinlarsson83 Agreed, I would imagine that there's a filtering component to smooth out the hydraulic outputs and a control line blending component too, for example sheeting in the traveler + adding leech tension from one user input.
I posted about this on another video but I also wonder if any of the teams are using nearly fully automated maneuver programs. For example, a "tack" program where the board drops, the boat automatically sets an ideal cant angle for acceleration on the next tack, the boat automatically cracks the jib and sheets in the main traveler, and the mast automatically rotates to always be inline with AWA and reduce drag, all while feeding the helm a steering angle target so that the rate of turn is perfectly in sync with the sail trim through the maneuver.
The advantages of this would be huge, since you could reduce crew workload significantly so that they can just focus on ride height and minor adjustments to trim through the turn. Ideally you could do this for everything from mark roundings, to start line accelerations, to gybes. It's really interesting stuff.
@@molby199 Yeah, there almost has to be a fair bit of filtering going on I guess :)
As you say, there could be quite a lot of things automated in that sense, but I wonder how much they do? I haven't read the rules and the protocol for this edition of the Cup, but I know they are allowed some level of linking through the control system.
At some point the actual sailing gets lost, and in some ways I almost think they've gone a bit too far already. But, it's not like it doesn't take a serious amount of skill, actual sailing skills, to sail these boats, not to mention racing them at 40-50knots!
And it's not really the rope handling skills that decides the race winners in most normal boats, it's the trimming, steering and tactical skills of the sailors that do decide.
One thing I don't like in this edition though is that we get so little info on who does what on the boat, especially in regards to sail trim.
I assume it's the windward trimmer than trims the sails, presumably both mail and jib? And the leeward trimmer does the foil. But the helmsmen seem to at least handle the main traveler in manoeuvres, maybe during the rest of the legs as well?
Does the leeward helmsman take on more of trimmer role, or are they purely tacticians when not helming?
I wonder how well Luna Rossas trimmers can see their sails from their forward and very low position, compared to Ineos with trimmers all the way back.
I'm a bit surprised that only LR went with those super slick windscreens, their trimmers have great visibility, on everything but their sails :P I assume they have a lot of cameras.
Slingsby said it was harder boat to sail than the other boats
He did in a Planet Sail video, I forgot to reference that but it's here: th-cam.com/users/clipUgkxIe5RYQVXzpyBEFCvpMjMosfmcW1SX9Me?si=HvFN_GvMzjzMqDK_
There was at least one cyclor on American magic pedaling squares. The on board cameras captured some terrible pedaling.
Yes, but the question is why. Something in the setup (Lack of flywheel/tandem link/seat to pedal drop) looked awkward. I'm not sure their training setup (seen on GCN) closely matched the real thing. Also very surprised their road training was on uprights - different muscle recruitment.
I assume they weren't getting enough rest between max efforts, Whenever they were forced into making multiple quick maneuvers they lost time. Their perceived aero advantage didn't offset the power loses with their recumbent cyclors.
Whether the AM recumbent cycle setup was the main issue or not we may never know as w/o data it's a fruitless endeavor. The Goodison injury was a disaster. Calabrese improved every day but let's call a spade a spade - his first day at helm was a disaster as AM won both starts but lost each race by whisker margins on his errors.
It's interesting to look at starts and finishes for the AM vs LR semifinal. Slingsby admitted in an interview with PlanetSail that he thought if they could win the start and avoid any mistakes then a win was certain. But, that's not how it played out. Four of the races (3-4 for LR and 6-7 for AM) the start winner won the race. But the other four saw the start winner lose. Overall AM controlled five of the eight starts hitting the favored left side of the course but in two of those races LR lucked into favorable shifts and puffs which seemed a theme throughout as noted elsewhere online by Slingsby. LR may have the best VMG boat in the regatta but their tactics lack polish and better teams like INEOS and ETNZ won't gift wins to their opponents like AM.
They really need to add you to the commentator team.
I would be terrible live!
..and to replace that lady....
@@cvanscho why? What's wrong with Shirley? She's a pretty accomplished Olympic sailor and while a bit too much of an Ainslie fan-girl at times, on whole she's pretty good? :)
@@Robinlarsson83 I guess all our ears hear differently; but I find her voice is painful to listen to, like the teacher scratching the chalk the wrong way on the blackboard... On a related note, I believe we should hear a lot less from the commentators, and much more from the boats etc.. Commentators just state the obvious. The only useful information from them is when penalties are awarded. YMMV of course..
The difference between the Youth Cup & the AC75 class races has me thinking about the relevance of the cyclors, particularly given that batteries are already present to power the foil arm movement. The Youth Cup fleet race format & the interaction with the sea state adds significantly to the spectacle, by comparison the AC75 fly largely above even confused seas, are lumbering (at times) to control, which adds risk & complexity to ensure that disaster does not result. If the AC75 sail trimming also went electric (or electric + parasitic), to a supplied component, might the racing be more about sailing spectacle than cycling or rowing...also if light air performance was improved by the weight reduction (absence of the cyclors netted against weight of power replacement systems) & improved sail control systems by elimination of some of the variability in power availability, we might see better racing.
There's undeniable logic in that. The thing is that sailing has a tradition of requiring a physical element , which arguably makes it a more complete sport. That said the AC has been happy to drop tradition to make for a more TV friendly show, so who knows?
@@firstnamelastname2669 I'm not necessarily against tradition, more thinking about the scale, weight & revolutionary performance of these flying vessels. The 40 foot versions seem more the right-size for televised spectacle than the majestic looking 75 footers (which might be more exotic poster art!). It will only take 1 boat-on-boat collision at speed for parties to realise that with these giant foiling things we're not in Kansas anymore. Light wind performance might be the area that the biggest improvements are continued to be made, which is handy because it is also likely much safer for participants than at the top end of the wind range.
That's where the philosophical aspect of sailing in the AC meets the controversial. Furthering the trend of applying technological innovation at the expense of human input alters the very nature of the sport. The endpoint of this tech progression leads to fully automated yachts that are remote-controlled like drones. Do we really want that? Do the legions of fans want it? Where do we draw the line...?
I like the fact there are grinders or cyclors. It's an additional element to factor in when designing these yachts and selecting a crew. If we only have helmsman and trimmers, the AC might as well remove the AC75 entirely and just sail on the AC40 one-design class, because the only thing differentiating the two classes at that point would be size. Might as well save all the time and resources devoted to the AC75 and turn the AC into an annual one-design competitor series to SailGP.
@@jamesaron1967 That moment in the pre-start where INEOS narrowly avoided their opponent who was struggling with boat control, was a wake-up call to me regarding the risks of the sail controls systems lacking power when needed. When these boats get in close, at speed, they aren't far away from carnage (& I wonder if it was that ("Sir") Ben was still dealing with a relatively new helm partner & thus a bit more inclined to hover over the controls, was all that averted disaster?) If the electrical systems were upgraded to eliminate the grinding immediately after the AC and a regatta run to determine what impact the absence of grinders has, I think it would be a more interesting contest about boat performance & decision making....I'd also think there may be evolution of roles, much more active/specialised around wind management, light air performance & the observation of the opponent. Currently I'm thinking that 75 is just too big a boat, likely a legacy of (cough) displacement sailing, where longer waterline length was advantageous. Other variations that might be worth toying with the idea are allowing the class to develop a foil arm that lets the boat sail both starboard and port...so syndicates might choose 2 arm foiling, or single arm foiling. There might be some robustness of operation in having a vessel that has 2 arms, but either arm can do both directions...supplied component to a class, or one-design comp. I think the operation of SailGP has changed the horizon to a significant degree, where the participants are reliant upon the tools being pretty much the same. A class description that provides a bit more scope for teams to do their own thing, as the AC tends to suggest, it puts some emphasis on development & sailing to your own advantages, not so much the techniques emergent across the fleet. As Mozzy's videos demonstrate, there is quite some interest and enjoyment in the consideration of events both on & off the water. 3 years between cup cycles seems a challenge.
This should put an end to the luddites complaining about the boats being run by cyclists and rowers.
I hope they stay with these design boats for awhile. Seems like everyone is getting used to sailing them
Pretty rich having an American boat accuse others of a self levelling / sell trimming system given the rumour from their successful comeback in San Fran.
Totally different teams with no relation to each other. As far as I'm aware there's actually bad blood between Larry Ellison and NYYC
@@molby199 Well, considering he campaigned the Oracle team for a different yacht club, that does make some sense.
@@weatheranddarkness The rumors that I've heard were that he approached NYYC and St. Francis Yacht Club first, and had his bid rejected by both. I've also heard that part of the reason that he went with Golden Gate Yacht Club specifically is because it is located directly next door to St. Francis. If true, talk about petty lol
ETNZ always new the US had a faster boat, they just couldn’t sail it. Their biggest mistake was giving them a day off. Once the Spithill came to grips with the boat it was all over.
I remember watching at 7-1 and thinking we’ve just lost the AC. People thought I was a nutter, but I could see things changing, new we’d lost it, even posted on the AC app that was available at the time and got abused and laughed at.
@@TheEnzedone Other teams said the 'day off' was literally because ETNZ were out of money and out of resources and were repairing critical parts of the boat with only what they had left. If the American Spy chopper had not seen ETNZ foiling 3 months out when ETNZ were 20 miles off shore thinking they were safe from prying eyes then it wouldve been a different story for sure. The better win was the next one in Bermuda when Coutts excluded ETNZ from everything and they won.
It was pretty obvious Goodison was a big loss for American Magic and I’m on record in quite a few previous posts and on Reddit in saying as much. If Goody was on the boat and perhaps a touch of luck could have knocked Luna Rossa out.
I don't think they had it in them, the sailing mistakes were arguably worse in the prelim and RR phases. The semis were the best showing they gave Luna Rossa the whole regatta.
I agree Goodison is better and I like him but even if he never left I still think LR would have won, despite the possibility of AM offering better competition. LR just looked a cut above every other contender except the Brits, who also have a good yacht this time around.
@@jamesaron1967 Totally, I think Luna Rossa is a very good overall boat and probably slightly geared towards lighter winds. Better at tacking and acceleration and manoeuvrability.
As for Ineos Britannia, that boat in my opinion has more upside as in potential speed. A bit like where we Kiwis were in the last cup. If they can unlock everything they have a good chance of defeating Luna Rossa.
Cheers.
@@johnmartin7158 I too had this feeling. Ineos seems to me to be a more powerful boat and capable of climbing against the wind with a narrower angle in certain wind conditions (over 10 kn). L.R on the contrary seems to me to be more agile and is better in lighter winds.
@@johnmartin7158consider that Inoes did already beat Luna Rossa the last 2 matches they sailed, fairly convincingly iirc, I'd say that the Brits definitely have a very good chance of winning the LV Final :)
Can anyone explain why of three AM helms none of them was american. Is America not producing foiling sailers?
I get the impression that AM did not have sufficient constructive critisism with the design team. Yes it's old school thinking. One aspect that nobody seems to have mentioned too is the comfort of their rearward facing cyclors. You aren't going to get 110% out of aft-facing, poorly ventilated energy makers. I like Terry Hutchinson but he hasn't ever adopted that gritty ETNZ management approach where all team members are given almost an equal voice, however silly some ideas may seem. It's a known fact that weird ideas that might not often work, frequently open up ideas you may never have stumbled across
I was wondering about the human factors of the rearward facing "deck apes." Merely being able to SEE when an effort is needed must be motivating, and the reverse must be true as well.
@@markfisher7962 I know there will always be deniers, but seasickness is a very real thing too. The thing is being seasick does take on many shades of grey. I would always go for comfort because the motion of these boats can be quite extreme at times
@@grantsutherland6798 How significant would seasickness be on a foiling boat in a race that's well under an hour? They're always above the waves unless they make a mistake or the wind drops. I'd be shocked if it's a major factor.
@@jamesaron1967 there is still motion and in a position where you could be spatially disoriented, it may be way more significant than you think. Remember anyone doing hard work at sea, it's a killer. I e been on semi-submersibles at sea and that motion is awful when doing drills in lifeboats on deck, especially with being inside a capsule
@@grantsutherland6798 I don't know much about submersibles but I've been in rough seas for a lot longer than these races and I've never had seasickness. Of course, that's purely personal because everyone's physiology is different and some people don't get sick easily. However, I don't recall in any of the interviews where a team member mentioned anything like that. They mentioned being knocked around and high g-forces in the turns but nothing about seasickness. Not saying it doesn't happen, but how prevalent is it actually?
@10:15 my guess would be the mode button is what mode they're sailing in. Ie high and slow or low and fast.
I had the same thought.
😊 sort of like cars...
-INEOS turned up with an Aston Marten
-LUNA turned up with a Ferrari
& NYYC turned up with a Corvette
YIP-KIWIS are gonna needa McLaren!
The always looked heavy in the water.
In hindsight things are always easier to see. Re AM it could be argued that Slingsby and Goodison were the most talented pair of helms in the competition. I think the boat was very good and has a lot of potential but it was a little too radical and difficult to sail and as such represented a risk and a distraction. It was a strategic error to go down that path. When you have the best drivers just give them a conservative, easy, reliable boat that's on par with the competition and let them go to work to create some of their own magic.
You could argue that Outteridge and Burling are just as or even more talented but they are handicapped by not getting as much racing.
In my books AM was potentially the strongest boat in the field but Goodison's injury was just too much of a blow. I now like LR's chances against Ineos and even TNZ. It's going to come down to who keeps their head together best - unless someone magically pulls a few extra knots out their bag of tricks (which I seriously doubt).
So now the question remains, who is going to win the "Louie Vwee ton" cup?.
That grates me when he pronounces it like that. Its likely the correct way, but still.....
@@fordsure take a shot everytime the commentator pronounces it differently, i dare you lol
Is that you, Stephen?
@@fordsure Me too, pretty sure it's pronounced "vee ton", I stand to be corrected though.
@@real2gone Not pronouncing words like that no 😉
I'm not a sailor and am new to this brand of the Cup but I don't understand many things about these boats. they're not really sailboats...they're more like sailfoils. The hull is simply a systems platform. The instant these boats drop into the water they're like bricks. And where are the sailors handling lines and changing sails? And what is the role of bicyclists on a sailboat? If these are the boats that are sailed why aren't these systems totally automated as they are on the youth Americas Cup (which to me is really exciting to watch...more so than the bigger boats)?
I'm not trying to be critical...really. I just don't understand so much of it. To me a boat is a boat when it's in the water...not flying above it (even the hulls are designed for aerodynamics instead of displacement dynamics).
just confused is all.
btw, I love this kind of analysis...thanks for the effort
It would require many paragraphs to answer all of your questions to the extent they deserve. Briefly, much of what you're inquiring about is borderline philosophical and controversial. Has been since the AC began permitting foiling yachts a decade or more ago. The controversy with foiling as opposed to displacement sailing is in the interest of attaining much higher speeds and attracting more viewers to the AC. Foiling in general is very popular as a way to sail these days. Incidentally, these yachts when in the water seem to sail faster than the old displacement AC yachts given the same wind speeds. They may appear _relatively_ lethargic in the water when comparing their foiling speeds but are not slow. Yes, the hull is largely a platform where all the systems and sailors are located. Some people liken them more to fuselages than hulls. The rigging (sails) is handled by hydraulics operated by buttons. The cyclors provide oil pressure to operate the hydraulics which control the rigging. The reason the AC75 has cyclors is that the AC wanted to retain some physical connection to the operations of these yachts. Before the cyclors, there were grinders, who used arm power to accomplish the same job but they were still moving oil to provide pressure for the hydraulic systems. They changed to cyclors in this edition to lower the overall weight by reducing the crew complement (legs > arms). This allowed for better sailing in light wind. The Youth and the upcoming Women's races are in a different boat class to simplify the operation for these sailors. Also, being much smaller, their sail plan provides less power and interior space, necessitating a 'skeleton crew' to keep weight at a minimum. Thus, only helmsmen and trimmers are onboard.
@@jamesaron1967 thanks for the respectful reply. Your explanation answered a lot of questions. I think that the tech involved to lift a multi-ton boat out of the water on a single wing is fascinating and the speeds they reach are crazy fast. It's a bit of a relief to know that I'm not the only one who may have qualms about the "purity" of these boats...at my age I tend to see things in the light of the past. You're correct about getting more viewers...I certainly have been following these races and have become a fan of all of them. All tradition aside it's just amazing to see these boats ripping through the water on just a small contact point with the water.
Thanks again.
@@lonewolf77782 No problem, glad I was able to answer some of your questions. Looking back at my comment, I realize that I could have been a little clearer with some of my responses. So, if you have further questions I'll see if I could address them better. Enjoy the current AC as much as you can and try to view all of the races including the Youth and Women's racing if you have the time. I don't know how much longer we will be able to see these amazing yachts racing. Despite their appeal among sailors and non-sailors alike, there seems to be a growing upswell of negativity among the purists who despise the design concept and don't like foiling in general. It's conceivable that this might be the last time we see these yachts. I hope not but it's difficult to predict the future of this sport.
I have heard that inside these boats temperatures reach around 80 degrees Celsius. I try to imagine what hell it must have been for the cyclors inside and with little or none fresh air to breathe.
If USA wants to get competitive, they need to sack Hutchinson. More posturing and posing than leadership - - "all hat, no cattle."
Normally, I don't root for teams from Angry Island (football), but I would be equally happy with Ineos winning (steady progress, honest innovation, grit), or Luna Rossa for functional elegance and seamanship. Also love the idea that the Kiwis maintain their dynasty. As a fan, I can't lose!
As a (former) native of Pensacola, FL, I can attest to the fact that the longer you stay there, the lower your IQ becomes. It's a failed sh¡thole of a has-been, small-minded intellectual wasteland - - hardly the type of drumbeat and vibe needed for animating and inspiring a high-tech, high-performance team. Literally any Florida gulf coast city south of the armpit would be better. Being in Pensacola is like drowning in a vat of pure sad.
Well it IS almost in Alabama, isn't it?
@@cvanscho It's near "LA" as the local joke goes - - "Lower Alabama"
Just couldn't go pass am cyclors positioning seem to be disconnected .as you say many factors this was a link that felt looked not max out on output compared to other teams did like the way they fought back am was on a charge there boat harder to keep the power speed at critical time s definitely had every one take notice. I think they sailed best they could with boat they had .
The real problem is stopping boats from using this Gemini program and having access to it from outside without other boats knowing Larosa was always in the wind, even if it made no sense to drive out and you cannot see that between 5 kn or 7 kn on the water from so far out I believe that the top boats are using from outside of what they’re allowed to see where the pressure is. American magic was always racing. Larosa was always pressure. It seemed that the data showed I find that suspicious.
this a deep conspiracy, but not too outlandish for the America's Cup
But to be honest, I think the system is more of a gimmick for the viewers. I am not sure how accurate it really is...
Can't blame one for this conclusion. AM won 5 of 8 starts but LR inevitably was better positioned for shifts consistently. Was it just great "luck" or something else as proposed herein?
The NYYC is an irrelevancy, it’s been 40 years since winning.
AM was a Charley Foxtrot from the get go. Too many cooks in the kitchen, divergent strategies among the so-called leaders and the big headed NYYC types made their effort almost doomed from the start. Ever since the NYYC lost the America’s Cup they’ve been desperate to get it back and in that desperation they haven’t made sound decisions on their team and strategy. They probably had the boat design but when it was all put together they didn’t have a cohesive team to pull it off. I’m sure they’ll be back as their pockets are extremely deep but they need to appoint one head of the operation and let the professionals do their job without meddling from the money people.
American magic needed the autopilot Oracle used in their famous comeback .,,
Yes I will never forget an interview with the still distraught Dean Barker with him saying yes ETNZ looked at that (some sort of automatic system) but we thought it was outside the rules. So it has always seemed to me that there was some sort of autopilot system installed on the US boat during the lay day. So if now someone is playing that way perhaps we shouldnt be surprised. After all it is the AM Cup! But it has to be said that compared to all the earlier Cups I have watched eg those with DC, these recent matches seem like a very fair playing field with good sportsmanship and a minimum of grief - even Jimmy Spithill has been very reserved. Go ETNZ!!
When the quality of the manoeuvres depend on electronics instead of the sailors skills, I am not sure that we are going in the right direction.
Thoughtful exit analysis, Tom. Who is your pick for the LVC Winner? My money is on LRPP.
Bought 😂
Why does everyone seem to think that recumbent produces less power than upright? I could have sworn that pro cyclists consider recumbent able to generate more power than upright.
I think it was pretty apparent that the recumbent cyclors did not generate sufficient power and Terry did not have a Plan B.
I hope Prada wins .. 🇮🇹
I dont think there was anything easi in alinghi winning the cup. Coming on a well established design rule with veteran teams is a big feat. I do think you cant compare Alinghi 2024 and what it was 20 years ago. Particularly the will of the ceo is certainly not the same.
On the contrary i think we see a lot of mistakes and problems from the top teams, i think some genius, lets say an adrian newey of sailing with the right backing could have swiped this cup.
keep up with this way of thinking ! perhaps we can get rid of rowers and cyclists and simply train actual sailors to meet the fitness requirements. Clearly its a better way of thinking as LR, GBR, and etnz all have sailing talent on the pumps
The last word in your headline is NOT spelled "cyclors." It's spelled "cyclers."
www.cyclingnews.com/features/cycling-meets-sailing-the-rise-of-cyclors-in-the-quest-for-the-americas-cup/
The hydrodynamics of politics…or is it the other way around?😅
'The English'?
Terry Hutchinson should stop whining, take the L and go home.
Come on, American sailors have always been humourists in Americas cup contests, where would be we be if we had to take them seriously?
CAn you get a presenter who is not experiencing a seizure while speaking.
Blah blah blah the yanks had the fastest boat but the worst crew
Not particularly pertinent to this video, but am I the only one who thinks that the AC40s are so much more exciting to watch? They look as though they are on fast forward compared to the lumbering leviathans that are the AC75.
I don't think it's a question of yacht class. It's fleet racing versus match racing. There's no question it will be more interesting watching all the teams racing together compared to only two at a time.
Obviously the fleet racing helps, but as speaking as a long time sailor of high performance dinghies the way the AC40s handle and behave is way more engaging.
$3M go karts :-)
I much rather be watching AC 70s than these go carts
AM cyclists looked horrendous to be fair
It's weird because in the GCN interviews, they talked a big game that they could pump 500W for a 30' and sprint up to 1000-1500W, but when we got peeks into the power numbers during races, they were only doing like 150-300W most of the time, with sprints up to 500W! I do believe those guys were jacked, they have former Olympic track cyclists and elite rowers on there, but still, it makes me ask questions.
@@JMurph2015 Exactly. I've been saying for months that the recumbent position cannot approach the traditional upright position in power output. Magic's claim of a 10% difference was so against conventional wisdom among recumbent cyclists that it had to be pure PR. That said, I don't think it's the reason AM was eliminated. I believe LR is a better team overall and their yacht is faster. Even ETNZ will have a difficult time if LR faces them in the finals. They have a very strong chance of winning the AC37 and I'm saying this as a NZ fan.
@@jamesaron1967 Well, one other thing though was that a lot of the other teams also seemed to be more in the same 300-500 watt territory, but they also didn't hype up their cyclors as much. I don't know if the power meters on the boats were just shite or what, but the numbers we actually saw during races were more like advanced hobbyist racer (Cat 1) and less like Olympic rower / track cyclist. I only saw a few bursts over like 600W (I think we did see one of the LR or Britannia guys do like 1200 or 1500 watts briefly, which was chad!). So I'm not sure what to make of that.
@@jamesaron1967 I also wonder if the rumored tandem setup on AM was causing issues. In that interview with GCN, Si asked "what happens if the dude behind you stops pedaling?" to which they responded something like "well you're pretty much f***ed". They had that shock loss to Alinghy after subbing their whole team of cyclors from the race prior. Then the next day, they only subbed two of the four cyclors between races. That seems to imply that something was going on with two of their cyclors that meant they weren't being subbed in the next day. The tandem setup would definitely exacerbate any difference in wattage because they couldn't each go at their own pace and put out what power they can. They would have had to roughly match power or the entire load would transfer onto the person pushing harder.
I suspect the lack of flywheel effect is a factor there. Have you ever used a cheap 'resistance band' trainer?
It's weird how the lack of smoothness makes it so difficult to put out power.
“Th”….keep working on it…..
Alinghi is an money mercenaries business club only!
Creepy alinghi better fitted out new the Aihe and hade a better yacht😅
Then they back box mast destroyer!
LOL, I was wondering myself if _Te Aihe_ was given the latest tech packages and lost some weight would it have been a better contender. Certainly looks a lot better!
That's what you get for giving you boat an obnoxious, Trumpy name like 'Patriot'
I'm not a fan of these freaky boats, but they are sailing better this goround. They are starting to find respectability. Let's see them race across the Alenuihaha Channel to see if they are actually sea going boats like the original schooner America.
Agreed, the boats are so unstable in general. Even if this go is an improvement from the last.
Yeah lets go back to super slow boats no one gives a rats ass about. I hate that the AC is very popular now.
@@jomgelborn "very popular" as if it isn't getting the same mediocre viewership it always does. And I guess you're just ignoring designs like the f50 producing faster, more consistent, and generally better racing
@@dread6554 Is the F50 really faster?
@@dread6554 The F50, a direct descendant of the AC50s, will soon incorporate T-foils inspired by the AC75s, highlighting how the America's Cup consistently drives innovation in sailing, and that's easier to do if audience numbers don't drive every decision.
I love SailGP for its thrilling fleet racing, and the Youth America's Cup with the AC40s has been fantastic. However, match racing will always struggle to match the excitement of fleet racing for viewers. Even so, the America's Cup remains a leading platform for advancing the sport, despite its match-racing format.
Interestingly, Grant Dalton hinted that if they win again, fleet racing might be considered for some regattas in the future, though not immediately. Just imagine 10 AC75s in a fleet race-it would be fun to watch!
Next one to go out is Luna Rossa 😂
Ineos will be praying that there are no light wind days. Their performance in light wind has been very poor in light wind. That is probably the reason why they selected to race the second race on the first day of the semi final when the wind was forecast to build a bit more.
@TheAllEngineering Maybe, but the extra Ineos shed time will have remoded the boat to be closer to what is anticipated. The data gathered is enormous. The learning curve remains steep. If either team cracks the code, minimises AND gets a couple of lucky breaks, then the other team will look ordinary......
I honestly think it is too close to call authoritatively. Hoping for a nail biter, either way......
@Si-jk4iy Mother nature always wins, you can anticipate what you like but if she throws some light wind days in I think Ineos will struggle. They struggled early on as well as later in the light winds and really did not improve much over the time so far. We will see, it will be more interesting if it is not a one sided affair.
@@TheAllEngineeringYou could very well be right. Do you know what the weather conditions could be.
Really?
Hutchinson should be fired.
Sigh
maybe
I guess it would have been a different outcome if Paul Goodison would not have had the accident
@pitasim3285 agreed