Shortening a Frame The Right Way
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ส.ค. 2021
- We did a box swap on a truck where we had to take 21 inches out of the frame to make it fit. Here we show you the proper way to section a frame rail.
Elitetruckrepairs.com
#bethesolution - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I shorten frames once or twice a week. Easiest way with no welding, figure out the end of the frame take it all loose, tape some cardboard poster together and mark your old holes, figure out where the new location is, cut your new holes, bolt it back up cut your air lines shorter to fit and roll out. I've done so many I can do it in about 8 hours now.. really not too bad. No welding required
This truck had a welded on power tailgate, that was not an option. Otherwise yes I would have done that too.
I currently have a long K-100 that I want to be shorter. Have been thinking about just putting the rears where I want them and cutting the long part of frame off once I’m done but have never done anything like that so didn’t know if it could be done 🤷
@@weepweep2225 yes that's the easiest way to do it
@@EliteTruckRepairs I appreciate you sharing bud!
@@weepweep2225you have to be careful with Kenworth chassis rails as some are high tensile and really tricky to get heat treatment right pre and post welding of course correct filler material is paramount,
Paccar body builder book shows using straight cut with torch and minimum of 24 inches of double frame inside of frame on either side of cut/weld. So 4 foot piece of double frame and redrill any holes it covers up. No holes within 2 inches of other holes or top or bottom flange. So this guy is pretty spot on using the slanted cut with a little more weld I think.
I have done this same thing about 4 times now only we extend the frames or replacing bad sections but we also plate the inside but grate video
Good work man 👍
Nice work
I think it is great that you openly publish the fact that you modify truck frame rails in a manner that is inconsistent with manufacturer's recommendations.
Hate to break it to you but every modification done to a frame rail is against manufacturers recommendations. They are only for hacks and weekend warriors who don't know what they are doing.
Actually, most manufacturers publish their recommendations for frame alterations in the body builder guides. These guides are used by professionals to make alterations that they can back up in the courts in the sad event of a catastrophic failure that results in death or major injury. In such an event, the manufacturer can be your ally in court or they can provide expert testimony against you. If you have chosen not to follow their recommendations there tons of retired automotive engineers who make a good living as expert witnesses.
Yeah, the real guidelines are:
Don't weld to the webbing and don't drill within 3/4 of an inch from the corners. Any body installer should know that. The way I have sectioned this frame is not only safe but legally the only way that is accepted in BC Canada. As a licensed government safety inspector for commercial trucks I can be held liable for doing anything on this truck, not just a frame job. That's fine because my work does not fail. @@jamesford7182
Those are just a few of the general "rule of thumb" guidelines. Had you ever read the frame alteration section of a body builders guide you would know they contain a lot more when they are multiple pages with a lot of figures and drawings. You may be licensed to inspect trucks but you are in no way considered a truck frame expert. As background, I have worked for three different custom truck chassis builders and have been around a few truck frames and engineers. Any company of respectable size can expect to be in the middle of more that one lawsuit at a time and truck chassis are no different. The more you pump out the more exposed you become. Fortunately, truck builders have learned how to protect themselves by publishing these standards and will generally win in court because people like you never bother with the details because you just "know it will work."
"Legally acceptable in BC Canada" Call your lawyer and ask what kind of liability you face for repairing something when you didn't follow the manufacturers published procedures. If he says none, then he is as bad a lawyer are you are at being a mechanical engineer.
@@jamesford7182 Yes I agree with you. Fortunately I'm just a small truck repair outfit. As a government endorsed vehicle inspector I have all the rules and regs at my fingertips and I can tell you, what I have done here is acceptable where I live.
Good video, I always try and stagger the scarf joints when I do framework like this if possible even if it's just a couple inches, as opposed to the joints being directly across from each other, I also stick weld(SMAW) the repair, and patch, cheers.
Nice 👍
Could have fooled me when you wrote you are not a welder. Looks like pretty slick fabrication.
Thanks lol. It's not my specialty but I can lay a decent bead.
Wow, these comments...... this is how i was taught as well.. great job!
that's all fine and dandy, but what about the flex and twist factor built into the frames? does not the cutting and welding take away those built in characteristics? where's the first place cracking or fracturing will occur?
I wouldn't have thought that welding downhill would penetrate enough for 1/4" and thicker steel.
The joints are ground on a 45 to give a valley to fill with weld, on both sides. That combined with slightly slower wire speed, lots of heat and a slow whip, the penetration in the weld will be nearly 100% through. Uphand would technically be the proper way to do it no doubt, but I'm not good at uphand, and this method is just as viable for this application.
@@EliteTruckRepairs I'm an old stick welder. To be honest, I don't think I would like to weld the "overheads", especially inside the C channel with MIG. I'm sure you know a lot more about mig than I do. Nice job.
@@davidmitchell7183 Thanks, I hear ya, stick is nice for overhead, I just turn the wire down more for overhead welding usually with a mig. In the end I am a truck mechanic, and I've done a lot of fabricating on trucks, I'm not a "welder", but I know enough to get by.
rest assured it does not. the only way is uphill with an 90XXX low hydrogen rod with copper or ceramic backing. this guy has no clue and is not certified.
@@bernardmauge8613 Hahaha you are out to lunch. It's a truck not a spaceship. None of that is necessary at all.
How much does this cost. Look good
Seriously nice job. Wouldn't it still be cheaper to just cut the gate or whatever is on the back, cut the frame, and give it new welds? I mean, your welds are gorgeous, so I'm sure whatever you're avoiding to weld again could use for your fresh welds.
Plus, cutting the back gives the opportunity to clean up the frame and further rust-proof it.
What kind of wire was use , great video 👍💪 for people who actually put the work in and do itttt . Might be having to do a job this Weekend for a friend.
Just regular solid core steel wire is fine. If you are doing extreme duty you might want to use flux core but for anything smaller then a crane truck solid core is fine. I used .35 and lots of heat, one pass on each side.
Ok thank you for the advice VERY VERYY Helpful when you need the help , appreciate you ,Elite Truck Repairs ,great videos like the quality of work done too 💯
@@jorgealvarado7925 Thank you!
Ive never done a frame. But I would still use a 7018. And some support gussets.
Fish plate and mild steel wire is fine for this truck its only a 5 ton.
where you get those overalls from?
Nice job, Boss what's the name of that " orange clamp " you were using at 5:52 to pull both frames tight against each other ? And Would you know where can I buy one ? Appreciated it
I believe they are just pipe clamps, normally used for woodworking, but these are made from some type of I-beam. I did not buy them, they were in the shop that I rented, left behind by someone. But they worked pretty good.
Thanks for the video.
What MIG wire are you using?
Just standard .035 solid core. You could use bigger wire for this job, but that's what I have in my machine for everyday use. If this was anything heavier then a 5 ton I would recommend using .045 flux core with dual shield argon.
i got a 1993 ford E350 van would shortening be about the same way just smaller?
Yes, but it would be tricky to find a spot long and straight enough to shorten of a frame of that type.
@@EliteTruckRepairs I appreciate the reply. Was planning on doing a body swap using a 1950 Plymouth for a mad max build
I’m wondering is this way better then the otching method idk anything about welding I was told by shop it would be best method I guess? Also does 2-2500 Canadian sound about right for just the cutting and welding no box brake lines driveshaft or fuel lines
I don't know what the otching method is. That price seems tad more then I would charge, just the cutting and welding should not be more then 6 hours max in my opinion.
Shit sorry meant to say notched the way they explained it was like a L cut so one sits on top of other O ok good to know I wasn’t sure what the going rate of something like that would be U happen to be in Ontario? I’d bring my truck to you haha
@@jordan-rb1lo If you are going to section a frame the way it is done in this video, this is the only legal way to do it in BC, that's where I am.
What wire did you use in the welder for that frame rail
.035 solid core
Probably GP mild steel. Not good enough , no normalization either .
Should have used a fish plate or at lease low hydrogen control plus no visible undercut ,lines or repair marks on any part or the repairs. Because chassis flex to extremes marks and scratches cause cracks.
Scribe lines cause cracks .
With the end result are you going to plate it with another rail or thats the finished product ? Thanks
A fishplate on the inside is plenty strong enough for this application. If it were heavier duty I would double the frame.
Just curious: why do you use oxyacetylene cutting and not plasma cutting?
Just because i don't have a plasma cutter big enough to cut frame rail. You could use a plasma if you wanted. I am also more practiced with a torch anyway.
The length of the weld is stronger if its longer? At an angle there are more inches of weld than a strait vertical weld?
No . one inch of weld one ton of weight. Natural steel is stronger. All bridges buildings and industrial structure uses butt welds , only timber structures use the taper connection method .
Only as strong as weakest element and usually that means parent metal unless incorrect welds or filler material is used, angle cuts add no structural strength other than imaginary ! But what ever ows your hair back until you face litigation I guess !
I absolutely agree the 45 will give you more weld and more strength over a straight cut. Excellent work! There are a lot of people with "expert" opinions like armchair quarterbacks... but until you've been knee-deep in a project like this, you don't really know what's up lol. I think a big fish plate is a huge safety net and you did a great job with it!
Thanks dude! Lookin forward to seeing your truck done!
I've only done at least 50 of these with a straight cut.
None broke.
Some sleeved, but the company I work for just wants hokey ass diamond shaped plates at the cuts.
We put 7 feet in the middle of the frame, and farmer co-ops put fertilizer tender boxes on them and run them in and out of fields and abuse them. I have no idea how they hold up.
Mig welded. Vertical UP.
Plasma cut rails.
Angle cuts are a waste of time. If you can weld.
@@haroldphipps3457 2 reasons why you're wrong, although it will likely still work fine. 1 It's simply against the law, at least where I live. 2 the safety factor includes extreme scenarios. In other words, it may drive down the road just fine, in most scenarios, but if you put it under extreme conditions, ie: major shock load or excessive weight bearing, it WILL fail before an extension made on a 45. Which is why it's illegal here in BC.
@@EliteTruckRepairs not illegal in the USA.
Those tow trucks and oil field trucks and heavy haul trucks that I and the companies that build tow trucks cut them at 90 degrees, so, NO they will NOT break.
But then, we weld vertical UP. So there is that.
@@haroldphipps3457 Well, it sounds like you've got the experience to back up the processes you prefer. Straight cuts with a splice/fish plate give you significant welding area in different angles. SEND IT! Haha thanks for watching and commenting!
I like what I saw. It would have been good to see the fish plates installments . Could you give me an approximate cost to do a job like this ? I know this video is over a year old but just to know an approx cost and tell what currency I am guessing US.
This job costed my customer about 7500 CAD including driveline and brake line mods, and swapping a box from another truck onto this one.
@@EliteTruckRepairs Thank you so much for your reply. This helps me so very much for the things I am doing in the Philippines for when I get back. My first welding job I did in the Philippines was on a motorcycle who's rear swing arm split in half in the center of the frame long swing arm mounting bolt. the swing arm became left and right independent motion of up and down from each side. I re-caped the crotch of the swing arm with a flat plate that I heated and formed over the entire split section. The repair was a success and I got paid 2 one liter beers and a chicken... Now I have people who want me to do frame work like you are doing now so knowing what it really will cost I can relate that to Philippine peso and lesser labor cost . I hope you find this reply entertaining the motorcycle weld repair was done with motorcycle spokes for welding rods because no welding rods for gas welding are available after The Super Typhon hit Cebu..... Pls keep your videos coming thhey are very educational ! ! ! I made the weld beads on the motorcycle repair very WIDE so the strong spring steel motorcycle spoke welding rod metal could better mix with the softer frame steel to make the weld less prone to cracking . Two years later the bike repair is still good. In the Philippines it is common to see up to 6 people on a motor bike , sometimes pigs , rebar , and cement blocks etc..
@@raydreamer7566 I am glad I could help you out, good luck with your job. One thing to keep in mind though if you are thinking of pouring more weld into a place, you need to keep in mind the heat you are putting into the material. Most times it is better to lay down multiple overlapping welds, rather then doing one big wide bead, this keeps the heat down on the material and makes it less prone to cracking at the edges of the weld, especially with aluminum. Don't be afraid to do multiple small welds instead of one big one.
@@EliteTruckRepairs Yes I will I also like the control with stringer weld beads. Keep your videos coming.
You should never weld down hill for structural reguardless if you double frame it! Other than that looks good , cause remember this , that frame breaks you’re held accountable. I’m lucky to be alive for this exact same mistake that a dealership made.
Technically you are correct, but trust me when I tell you my beveling and down hand has 100% penetration, it will never break.
How many hours to do a this job ?
About 8 hrs on the frame, plus time for having the driveshaft, park brake cable and brake lines shortened.
Great skill. However the steel guitar not so good for me.
What kind of wire are you using????
.035 solid core
I’m stunned you didn’t use a stick welder.
Welcome to the 21st century.
Why would you rather use a stick welder if you have a Mig welder
@miked8009 If you gotta ask then you wouldn't try to understand the answer anyways......
I'm not cutting the frame I'm moving the rear end forward and redrill holes
dude so glad i saw this comment. this is prob the way to go. way easier. just saw off whatever dont need
I’m right there
Can u add to turn a 24ft box truck into a 26ft box truck
Yes, but you should only add frame at the rear ends of the frame rails if possible.
@@EliteTruckRepairs ok thanks do u have to move the rear axle or is just add 2ft to each side being it’s only 2 ft
@@johnWick-in2gk that depends on the factory location of the rear axle and what kind of load you expect to put on it. If its a standard factory wheel base you can usually get away with adding a couple feet of frame on the back without changing the rear axle location. Each state or province will have its own rules on what you can have, I suggest looking into it with your local DOT. But generally, a couple feet is fine.
Don't mean to be a hater, but you should've welded the frame with E11018 welding rods, because truck frames are hardened steel.
No.
Frames are NOT "hardened" steel.
Not hardened. But alloy variance steel . You selected a mid range low hydrogen rod and is a good choice it's specs are suitable for army repairs that's got to tell ya something.
As for tensile strength its easy to overheat drill holes and will easily temper to not allow a hss drill to penetrate (All ways use pilot drill ) sharpen drills before they won't cut is good advice.
scarf is for wood. extra work for no benefit
I just learned this from watching a video of an engineer explain why that is. However even he stated, some places are mandating these style of connections. However! He also showed with his math, these don't hurt either. It's simply a waste of time and effort and doesn't gain anything, just like you said; extra work and no benefit.
In THIS guys case, he's in BC where they lawfully mandate he does it this way. Leave it to Canada lol.
Why didnt you tack weld a spreader bar between each section of frame ? I like your system , But I would think you should have supported those sections for more accuracy . i do this all the time just saying , NOT BASHING . Good video though man !!!
You're not wrong, I did actually use some pieces to help line it up, I guess it just wasn't shown in this video. The application was not very extreme duty so I just measured twice and cut once on a few reference points.
Fish plates on the webs? How many frame fractures begin in the webs? The loads on truck frames stress the flanges. That is where any breaks will begin.
There are no fish plates on the webs. The fish plate is on the inside of the rail in the center.
Sorry, but if you are referring to the vertical portion of the channel frame member (guessing approx. 10" with approx. 3" flanges), that is the web. Not worth dickering over, but I have yet to see a broken or bent truck frame, caused by a load, that started in the web. Distortion or break in one or both flanges may have extended into the web, but it didn't start there. Just saying.
@@dennisveal4427 Well I was taught the "flanges" are called the web and the inner section is the rail. Either way, it is illegal to weld anything to the "flange" of the frame rail where I live.
Up weld stronger than down weld looks good
True, but if you bevel and whip you can get just as as strong of a weld in this application.
So long as you know what your puddle was doing then it does not matter what direction you travel unless grain and polarization of the cooled metal crystals is engineered into the specs. The reason down hill is not preferred is because the puddle can run down prematurely and not completely penatrate both sides of the weld. The puddle runs down and overlaps the base metal before it has a chance to become molten. This results in an inclusion and weakens the weld. Down hill is used heavily within the industry and professionals know the why and how to make it right. You generally learn that down hill is a bad thing at the high-school or college lol because it is an introductory course. In applications where you are welding very thick material up hill welding will be called for to insure that the heat required for good penatration is available do to the puddle not running away from the electrode but instead into it. This creates a more effective heat well required for welding thicker materials more efficiently. Not stronger, but more efficiently since you are stacking the heat into the base metal so that it does not require as much on the next pass. It is a balance of not overheating your weldment and not letting to much heat from your root pass disappear...... so I have read somewhere
Nope wrong, but hey what do I know? Only did it for over 20 years for every major Trucking outfit in the USA. Oh just to name a few Mack, Peterbuilt, Frieghtliner, Volvo, Republic waste, Waste Management, and many many more.
The settler colonies have different laws though. The settler colony of Canada mandates he uses this method. He doesn't have a choice. Even though engineers prove, this method is extra work and doesn't add anything, BC he say's mandates it this way. It's not his call. He has no choice even if he preferred butt joints. Seems like the settler colony of USA got this one right. Apparently down under (another settler colony) also mandates this craziness.
Good way to f-ckup a perfectly good truck . Move the suspension forward cut off the back
First off, you don’t fish plate frame splice you should plate the inside and bolt it then weld it
I did fish plate the inside, and bolts are not required on a truck of this GVW
The video must’ve cut short I didn’t see the plates on the inside the department of transportation in the last year has made it mandatory for us to have plates on the inside at least 22 inches on both sides about cuts but they must be folded. We can’t Welder plates on the outside any longer.
Good way to f-ckuo a perfectly good truck. Move the suspension forward cut off the back. Lot more work but the rite way
The truck is not fucked up this is industry standard practice. This truck has a welded liftgate which makes a shit ton more work then what I did. You might wanna get off your high horse there pal. You know nothing.
Maybe he owns a drill bit factory
I don't understand why you would shorten a frame unless it's because it's extremely rusted and needs to be redone at the same time as you are hiring a sub40 hour driver.
Because it had a welded liftgate on the rear of the frame that would have been more work to remove, repair and reinstall.
No cutting no welding is the best way. But 45 cut is also not bad option and straight cut also no problem any cut and welds works nice. Mild steel frame works with any cut. but in OEM view no weld is permitted. Operator should follows the Law first
But your fishplate is really interesting and impressive what can i call that kind of plate?
How do you figure that’s the right way?….
Because it is. It will never break, and I got it done in half the time it would take you with a zipcut and stick welder. Customer happy.
@@EliteTruckRepairs where are u located
@@duallylover4566 Sorry but the shop is out of business due to covid.
The easy way doesn't mean it's the right way.
This isn't actually the easy way anyway.
We modify frames every day…if one of my guys made a diagonal cut and fish plated it…I’d thump him on the head and tell him to quit watching TH-cam and let the men work.
We 45 our cuts and add football plates…7018 stickweld it like a man. 8 hours with shortening drive shaft and lines.
Exactly how to not shorten a frame. Nothing against the welding or skill set. Does not follow any recommended OEM procedures.
Follows exact government regulations where I live. OEM recommendations are for lamens.
You ran down hill on the vertical.
Yeah, and the edges were beveled on both sides. Penetration 100%
Slide the axle forward, cut end of the frame off and get on with your life!
Not with a liftgate attached to the truck. Watch the whole video before you start spewing bullshit punk.
i never understand why people prefer to cut a frame to shorten it over drilling new holes and relocating the axle on factory frame rails with no welds...cutting and welding is increased liability..do you think its faster? it takes me about 8 hours to move an axle . to each their own...everyone has their own way.....might be "the right way" to them.
Depending on the application you could go either way. In this circumstance it was easier to shorten the frame to keep the lift gate on the rear of the truck in tact. Moving the axle would've involved cutting off the rear of the frame to fit the box and then remounting the lift gate. The 8 hrs it took me to do this job, would have been closer to 20 hours at that point. no increased liability, because it's done properly. Make sense?
Oh ok. I now see why each way has its place. Very cool!
When you're working on a medium duty truck with the shorter frame section above the axle, cutting IS the way to go...otherwise you end up with funky fitment of the spring hangers and the rear of the truck higher as well.
THAT IS ACTUALLY WRONG !
No way. That's terrible. You don't cut it in the middle. Slide the axles forward and re drill holes. Then cut off the back. Never cut in the middle.
Nothing wrong with cutting here. It's done ALL the time, exactly here. I have a stretched F450 the same way...with butt cuts though. Slanted doesn't gain you anything, but there in BC, he claims it's the only lawful way. Ignorant politicians making clueless laws I guess.
BS. Easier, faster and better to slide the axles forward and cut off the back.
@@michaelwhite-oi1ft It's not BS. It's done all over the world lmao. Sometimes you want to lengthen, not shorten, you know right?
Wrong in so many ways
Nope
Who the f&$k uses a cutting torch to cut a frame. Good lord have you lost your mind. Make sure you soften every area of the frame and put a nice hard weld on it. 👍
Oh yeah tell me, how hot does a welder get when it's welding back together? A pro torch user can do the job of your zip cut in a fraction of the time. Stick welders are shit, not needed for class 8 frames. It also has a giant fish plate on the inside of the rail.
@@EliteTruckRepairs Should have used wood glue and duct tape so you aren't affecting the molecular structure of the steel!
Mind-numbing music takes away from the whole video. Don't believe I'll be subscribing. Let the tools be the background music.
Easiest way to shorten the frame is move the hangers forward Mark all the holes and redrilling holes with a MAG drill
Except when the truck has a lift gate welded to the back of the frame.
Wrong way.