I have a question. I can understand the world becoming more modern and similar to ours as time passes. But what happened to the beast people? It seems like the human population reacts surprised by them but in the og dragonball they were common placed. In the beginning of z the police chief was a dog dude.
To me, the introduction of Super Sayian was a huge boost to the Dragon Ball franchise, but also needed to be handled carefully to avoid it simultaneously becoming the overall death knell for the franchise. And unfortunately, it wasn't. See, before the introduction of Super Sayian, fights in Dragon Ball or DBZ were never solely about raw power. It was a huge factor, but things like teamwork, tactics, techniques, even skill could close power gaps to various degrees. Even techniques like the Kaioken* and Genkidama were high risk/reward powers that required sacrifices to pull off, so they couldn't just be spammed for an instant win. Super Sayian made things solely about raw power. All of the clever tactics against Frieza, all the team-work, sacrifice plays, even superior martial arts skill, none of it mattered. It came down to who had more raw power, and that was it. And if had been that way SOLELY for Frieza, it wouldn't have mattered. It would have been that culmination of a prophecy giving Goku enough power to defeat someone who required raw power to defeat. Having more Super Sayians wasn't the problem. Making it some form Sayians could aspire to reach made sense, and the idea that it unlocked this massive amount of raw potential within them was cool. But then they needed to either make it a power boost to close the gap with more powerful opponents, or give Super Sayian it's own drawbacks. For instance, the focus on anger and rage could have giving it a limitation that a Super Sayian can't use more advanced tactics and techniques. That could have been a reason why they couldn't use the Kaioken in conjunction with Super Sayian mode: the technique is just too complex to use while in Super Sayian. It could have created instances where there'd be an excuse not to use Super Sayian mode when more tactics or skill was required. Goku out of Super Sayian mode could have fought more like an experienced martial arts master, while Goku in Super Sayian mode fights more like a brawler. It could have been a way to showcase the difference between Goku and Vegita. Vegita would see Super Sayian mode as the solution to every problem, while Goku would be willing to go in and out of Super Sayian mode depending on the situation. The other thing that cheapened Super Sayian was the idea of "grades". Making Super Sayian 2 specifically a unique upgraded form of Super Sayian meant that the base form was now something lesser, and afterwards everything was going to be about who had the most powerful and newest form of Super Sayian. They should have simply gone with the idea that Gohan's "Super Sayian 2" was simply the expression of Gohan cutting loose for the first time, completely tapping into his raw potential and THAT was why his Super Sayian mode was more powerful. Super Sayian should simply be a boost to the base form's power, so to get stronger you need to train in your basic form. In this way, whoever was the stronger Super Sayian would depend solely on how strong their base form was. By making the series all about raw power, by not giving Super Sayian any drawbacks and by introducing "grades" of Super Sayian, DBZ completely crippled the idea of the basic Super Sayian form, so that they'd HAVE to release multi-colored hair modes, different hair styles and the like to remain relevant. Super Sayian should have simply been a unique visual cue that the Sayians are going all out and favoring power over technique, not an easy indicator of who's more powerful. *And as a sidenote, the humans should have absolutely been taught the Kaioken as a way to keep them relevant. The very act of training with the Kaioken would have toughened them up and made them stronger, and allowed them to stay relevant to the series. Especially if the show didn't become about raw power and could have allowed weaker but skilled characters to still have a chance.
Amazing analysis! :) I've worked on a rewrite here and there and I also feel that drawbacks are important. Need to have more drama and meaningfulness from techniques/forms so they won't become irrelevant and force the creators to come up with a new form every saga. Cool at first, but, later on...hmm.
Except there are some error. The Super Sayan is a multiplier and the base form is vital. If you compare Goku and Vegeta you understand that Vegeta was weaker in his base and he need Babidi's mark.
@@stefanocremonini2656 While that's probably the case, I don't recall that ever being stated in series, likely comes from a second hand source like a guide book or interview, and given Toriyama's bad memory, who knows if it really matters. I could well be wrong, but my point is ultimately more about how to make Super Sayian function in a way that doesn't cheapen it or break the setting.
@@Paxchi vegeta and Gohan are the two cases. As an hybrid Gohan has a huge abyss in his base compared to Goku and Vegeta to the point were Mystic Gohan can easily take down Gotenks ss3,Goku ss3 and Majin Vegeta ssj2
When it became so basic that you're not a true saiyan if you can't transform. The fact that Vegeta was suprised by Cabba's inability that showed how simple it became.
Tbf cabba in vegetas eyes was Alternate Universe him, and vegeta achieved SSJ decades prior while going WAY beyond and these people were meant to be more evolved than them so it makes sense he would be surprised
@@jamesfitzgerald1684 true true which is also something people overlook ALOT, Cabbas base was like far higher than Gokus or Vegetas when they first went SSJ
@@bnbnism yea , some people completely neglect the fact that power creep exist in DBZ. They put out statements like SSJ2 Gohan is stronger than SSJ2 Cabba when it's like no heck no
People don't seem to realize that the U6 saiyans have every right to learn SSJ and SSJ2 so quickly. They had advantages over Goku and Vegeta to learn the two SSJ forms. -Goku and Vegeta had to learn by themselves, having no idea how to even do it. Goku not being concerned about it at all and Vegeta being too arrogant to accept he wasn't one yet. -The U6 saiyans naturally pick up techniques easily because they're saiyans -Goku and Vegeta can turn SSJ on like a flashlight, it's easy to teach that to a couple of quick-learners.
Remember back in the day when Super Saiyan 1 in the Frieza Saga was a huge deal and the most powerful force in the universe? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
@Brian BabinFacts I'm a future Trunks fan and I'm super ultra pissed at that ending they gave them unreasonable power ups for him to get the job done and it wasn't even worth it in the end
I think it was Goten and Trunks that did it. They're just able to do it when we saw all the other characters have to struggle to attain the form and those moments actually fueled the narrative. At least with Future Trunks it added to the mystery of "who is this kid," and Gohan going SS2 was meant to be the culmination of the character. After the Cell saga though, it felt more like "hey check out these new forms!"
agreed, which is why it felt weird to me how many people only started talking how it lost its shine when U6 saiyans got it easily, when literally children could already do it easily.
Trunks became a super saiyan litteraly chapters after goku Then vegeta got it, the gohan got it granted vegeta's reasons where good but it was of screened
Ever since the Android Saga, I always thought the "Super Sayian" more as a "Battle Form" kinda like Sailor Moon going full magical girl, or the Power Rangers Morphin Up. Since it was literally used in any fight that mattered by anyone that had it.
I really like it in DBGT: A Hero's Legacy where Super Saiyan is given the respect that it deserves again. You get to see Goku jr struggles so hard and becomes one and it was quite satisfying.
Well i guess you could argue transformations in general are just a way to sell toys now Honestly multiple saiyan form isnt a problem in and of itself. But toriyama power crept its cast. The new transformations makes everything else obsolete instead of having different niches
Look how far we've come and I'm still wondering what happened to the genius martial artist Tien or even Piccolo who's been relegated to mentor status to the point where in the Broly movie he was more useful as the mentor who sat on the side to teach them something after they got their asses kicked. Wtf does shonen jump have against genius fighters Tien and Neji deserved better.
This It would have been much more interesting if the characters kept improving on SSJ in their own ways instead of having a new SSJ number every week Like say: Gohan - SSJ - masters SSJ - Ascended SSJ Vegeta - SSJ - bulky SSJ - becomes Majin - learn god ki - SSJ Blue (going SSJ using said god ki instead of normal ki) - mastered Blue Goku - Kaioken - SSJ - masters SSJ - Super Kaioken Later you could have him get SSG through the ritual and/or become a golden oozaru to obtain Ikari SSJ(SSJ4)
True. Batman sells tons of "ice suit Batman", "fire suit Batman", "ninja Batman", etc. variants, most of which are insanely laughable and don't even show up in any media - but you know from how Batman DOES use other equipment why you would want each of them. If Super Sayians powers worked like a toolkit, each toy would stay relevant and keep selling. "It's a Majin! Goku needs to switch to Super Saiyan Purple Polkadotted to fend off the Majin ki so it doesn't corrupt him! Buy your Super Saiyan Purple Polkadotted Goku figure today!" With Goku, though, the only reason you buy SSJ1 figures is if you have a nostalgia for the first Frieza fight, or just because you happen to like it aesthetically. Most of the ones I've seen even have the blood from the Frieza fight. Meanwhile, "Ice suit Batman" has been done repeatedly to match different cartoon series' over the years. Each time to fight that generation's version of Mr. Freeze.
@@Merennulli Oh yeah, ice suit Batman. The costume he'll use for one episode at most and will beat Mr. Frezze without it next time he fights it. It's like how Superman TAS had a space suit for Superman, you know, for breathing in space.
@@vanjagalovic3621 As I mentioned, Batman never used many of the suits in any episode. But they worked as merchandise because they had clear, distinct functions that kids could understand enough to want. As for Superman's space suit, his powerset varies over incarnations. At the time, the logic was that he was just really good at holding his breath in space. (Despite talking. In space...)
4:06 *how Vegeta actually attained Super Saiyan* Vegeta: "I WANNA BE A SUPER SAIYAN! I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA! I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA!"
The second two teenage androids could beat it without trying much at all, it became a joke. Then SS2 became a joke in the Buu saga and SS3 became a joke in the same saga it was introduced.
@@origamininja380 I think why people hate that whole scene so much is because that wasn't really a training session like how gohan, vegeta, trunks technically if you count training with F gohan but they all had some emotional weight to it.
Super Saiyan kinda became a joke when an old man in his basement created a bunch of toasters who were stronger than it :( And then one of the toasters can magically rival Super Saiyan Blue because he defend animals against poachers on some random island. WTF?
America Eagle Prior to Z the strongest being on earth had a power level of what? 450? It makes no sense how Gero could create beings with power levels in the 100s of millions, especially considering previous Red Ribbon androids weren’t capable of beating KID Goku.
I personally excused it since Goku and Vegeta mastered Super Saiyan by that point. Well, not in Vegeta's case as he only just started using it after Trunks was born, but he was close enough that I feel like it could get a pass in the genetic pool.
@@saltystick_99 true... Plus before s cells it's also stated that half bloods have more potential than full ones. Except the so half bloods don't have the drive to constantly fight. That Saiyan instinct is dull in comparison.
@@saltystick_99 I mean yeah, I've read many theories on how and why Goten and Trunks where able to go SSJ in such an early age, and they do have good evidence backing them up. But story wise it feels kinda... what's a good word to describe it? Unsatisfying? Maybe if they showed us that they didn't have full control over their transformation at first, and they had to train to master there new forms it would make more sense? Then again this is the same show that thought it was a good idea to have two toddlers fight Majin Buu, so it's safe to say logic is not exactly a strong suit of the Dragon Ball franchise.
@@alexanderstavroulakis335 But love it or hate it. I think we can agree it would be worse if Trunks and Goten could go Super Saiyan 3 straight outta the womb without fusing into Gotenks.
There’s also the occurrence around the same time when Piccolo managed to leapfrog the base power of SSJ to take on 17, who’d handily proven capable of handling the first level Super Saiyan form with ease (as you touched on). That proved that while SSJ was certainly an impressive upgrade, it wasn’t necessarily the universal dominator the legends claimed it was and that (in theory) it was possible for non-Saiyans to reach the same heights with sufficient work and the right help. This got even more highlighted Pre-ToP, when Piccolo just shrugged off SSJ2 Gohan like it was nothing. But the biggest example of this would be Jiren, who seemingly got to where he is simply through grinding alone, with seemingly no transformations, shortcuts or hacks (like zenkais) necessary. Which is honestly a *way* more impressive feat than any SSJ form could achieve when you think about it. If he'd been a better written character, it would have almost felt a shame to see him lose in the end.
Jiren's only "Forms" are just percentages of his full power and then a sort of limit breaker for when a Goku comes along so he can push past his full power meanwhile Goku has *12 Forms* at his disposal. Jiren could've been the biggest badass ever but his backstory was utter crap
@@Goated876 Actually thats missing a step thats usually skipped over Oozaru and SSJ are massive components, yes, but people forget that simply going SSJ while in Oozaru is not only hard but also not going to immediately throw you into SSJ4 So as a math equation it'd look more like this Saiyan + Blutz Waves = Oozaru Oozaru + SSJ = Golden Oozaru Golden Oozaru + Self Control = SSJ4
@@vd6070 With that information, I can add even more to it. Oozaru + self control = Broly's oozaru(Ikari) Ikari + SSJ1 = Discount SSJ4(50x boost with another 10x boost) Ikari + "LSSJ" = Discount LSSJ4(?)
I think when super saiyan lost its edge is when the power stopped coming to a need and started becoming only a desire like goku said "power responses to a need not a desire" because that was the core of the form and many other forms.
The narrative weight it had has changed a lot. Used as a kind of limit break (back before the term had any meaning) stemming from a Saiyan going to their limits physically and emotionally and still needing to go further, not wanting but *needing* at a level of tragic rage (Goku, Trunks) or pathological obsession (Vegeta) it's a great device. Buuuut yeah after that it gets a little silly.
Also, kinda tangential, but Trunks and Goten make a significant amount of sense if you consider it in terms of trauma and epigenetics. You shouldn't, because that sort of thing has no bearing on a story about magical dragons and super kung fu, but it does work.
Super saiyan was something really special especially ssj2 which was honestly its peak now it's like, ah yeah another hair color that makes u stronger because reasons
Uncommon opinion here. Perhaps we just have to remember that Super Saiyan is not a mysterious, godly legend. It's nothing more than the lore of an tribe from outer space. Some saiyan natives who can fall in a terrifying rage with their hair and eyes changing color. In a sense nothing special, not more than Friezas transformations, the metamoran and namekian fusion technique or the yardratian skills. I know it was portrayed to us as being the pinnacle of reachable power, but even in-universe, it was nothing more than alien folklore. Perhaps Toriyama wanted to remind us on that. And later in the ToP, I think it became pretty obvious - because every universe had races who thought of themselves as the exact pinnacle of power like the fandom sees in the Super Saiyan Transformation. Even if it is a big step down, I think it's an acceptable way to accomplish two deeper goals: give other characters their possibility to shine, and to make the saiyans appear more human, give them storywise the ability to still train and become stronger - and not relying on mystical on/off buttons or singular heroes who oitclass everything per se. That would quickly become boring.
The first time we saw SSJ; it was the awakening of a 1000 year legend. It was an iconic moment on the series. But now Pan is literally the only Canon Saiyan or Saiyan Hybrid to not have the form now. Its now just part being Saiyan.
So right, this became even more apparent after vegeta just asks cabba casually to transform to super saiyan even though he knows that the super saiyan form is a legendary transformation that comes once in a millenia.
What i still cant get over is the fact that gero was able to create something that was so powerfull. Gohan hat to go beyond ssj to defeat it in a closecall.
Well, cell is a dna combination of every z fighter and freeza and king cold, and he also absorbed the androids, who were stronger than the z fighters soooo I guess it makes sense (?)
@@itsjustaspider yeah but c17 and 18 where humans. that kind of mortals that have a powerlvl of 1-5. and 18 wooped vegis ass after he just got ssj. not to forget that 16 was a pure robot. imagine that power in og db. if 8 was that kind of powerhouse.
Hell how did Dr. Gero create machines more powerful than Frieza? I mean Frieza was supposed to be unstoppable force ruling the universe. How did no other inventor throughout the universe accomplish what a man hiding in the mountains accomplished?
@@Johncornwell103 It depends on a few things. 1. Gero had been spying on Goku and company for a long time, only stopping shortly after the Saiyan Saga. It gave him plenty of data to work with. Ironically though, he didn't send a drone after them to Namek... 2. Gero's androids had their own advantages. Such as not being detectable via KI sensing and being able to steal the energy of others. If played right, that could be a deadly combination. 3. Cell and #21 were created from fusing the DNA of several warriors, and were thus granted their abilities, and could even combine them. Cell using Namekian regeneration to give himself a Saiyan Zenkai for example. 4. In case of his death, Gero had back up labs with supercomputers to keep his work going. In FighterZ, #16 said there were many of said labs across the Earth... 5. The only thing I had a problem with, ironically, was how he gave #17, #18, and maybe #16, "unlimited energy" since it was never explained...
Galactic Emperor who explodes planets with his finger as a type of intimidation to other planets under his control VS. A disgraced, resource-less engineer in some lab in a mountainside on a backwater planet. The results will surprise you.
A good transformation needs to have at least 2 of these 3 things 1) An explanation of what the form is and how the character got it 2) Foreshawdowing 3) Some kind of drawback when the form is first used. This is why I hate SSJ Rage
I think Saiyans are an evolving species-they are just learning and adapting over time but the writers are leaving too much of the story out now for us to see the actual changes. Back in the day of Frieza, yes some of the battles were pretty long, but the intensity was there to make you want to see what happens next. The story kept you going because your favorite characters were facing a challenge that you wanted to see them overcome as individuals and as part of the Z team/cast. The story now is lacking, and many facts and characters are getting twisted for no reason that we are needing better story to clarify- or else are finding embarrassed for our favorite character. So yes, I can see how nostalgia is in the way of Super, but this is why we need better writing. We would not be feeling so lost or our favorite characters being ruined by Super, if the development of the characters were shown on camera and more of what is going on to make us understand. For example, I love Future Trunks, but why could we not have seen him stay in past and developed into Xeno? What about his rage transformation? Also, I know comedy is part of Super but there are moments in Super where the comedy is just stupid and not funny because the characters are just out of character, like Trunks getting on his knees mistaking Whis for Beerus, I'm sorry but I dont see Vegeta's son doing that. It is not him especially Future Trunks even if he is facing a god. Or Vegeta with the whole pacifier bit, again not something Vegeta would be willing to do. So yes, I think the problem is in the writing of the show and how it is not paying attention to their audience, and to the show's own past history(-Mai being way too old for Trunks to be with romantically since she was a main villain when Goku was a kid) and their audience's responses to the material. We love this show but no one likes their favorite characters being ruined by lazy writers.
The evolving species part i like and think is one of the things GT did well. Oozaru was too dangerous and impractical to use so they stuck with super saiyan, a more efficient form. As they ramped up their ki consumption like for ssj3 they got a little more aggressive and primal looking. Then oozaru was brought back as that uncontrolled source of power to then be finally tamed and refined in a best of both worlds ssj4 form. So far the god forms are just inject god ki and then go through hair colors. It is treated as saiyan exclusive when god ki is not and there is just no connection to their race anymore other than name. It is all just god ki, nothing saiyan unique about it so to speak
@@bluecanine3374 Yes, we can definitely see that in Dragonball, Z, and GT. Since Saiyans learn and adapt as they go, once they see something or experience it, they can adapt it and use as their own. That's why I can see them always evolving and changing, like getting a god form. But it would be nice to see the changes happen on screen, like seeing Vegeta obtaining red god form which we see he can all of a sudden in Resurrection of Frieza.
@@Stephanie-kh6nx The Super Manga even acknowledged SSJG Vegeta more than the anime did, so in a way Super was *supposed* to have SSJG Vegeta be more prominent but they tossed it aside for "SuPeR sAiYaN bLuE"
Hey Masako I finally got the Ranch plush I ordered in the mail yesterday! It's Super. Also the tingling back description sounds like Cabba figured out the actual mechanics of turning Super Saiyan. Maybe Universe 6 Saiyans have a better understanding of their biology and Ki flow.
Dragon Ball has always had a problem of introducing something awesome and then immediately making it irrelevant. You never actually get to enjoy it. Edit: I made this comment before finishing the video and realized I just said everything he did. Lol
@@Koel_Hellion Right? ultimate Gohan was amazing. I'd be okay with all these forms as they have like some sort of strategic value where they all had their strengths and weaknesses. But they always make itthis one makes this one obsolete and they throw in like one little detail the like o Super Saiyan God is really fast but that's it. And they utilize it for like 1 episode.
Veiotic tbf, unlike GT, Super is actually trying to have Gohan develop his PU form into a unique thing for himself. He seems genuinely dedicated to becoming powerful in his own way... now if only he could actually be something more than just third fiddle for the Z Fighters.
@@metatron6262 I'm not saying super is bad I love dragon ball as a whole I'm not even a GT fan. I would just love to see them utilize more of the shows potential than just constantly adding new abilities and pumping up Vegeta and Goku.
I honestly don't understand how Android 17 and 18 were so strong. If they were originally humans how does Android 17 rival SSB. Yet Toriyama screws the human characters who also probably train
Not going to lie, I was starting to lose interest in this channel (the what if’s and discussions were bloating with over-bias), but I was surprised that the discussion on transformation, a very touchy topic, was reasoned. Yeah, Trunks appearing was a start of decline, and I do agree. I was honestly surprised you didn’t go off on SSJ3. Great Job.
I won't lie: I like the idea of "S Cells" and Goten and Trunks being able to attain the form due to Goku and Vegeta having already unlocked the form when they were born.
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And Gohan struggling because he was already 6 or so by the time that Goku went super?
I think S Cells actually make sense in a genetic sense TL;DR: S-Cells make sense because of Alleles and Adrenaline Control. I discourage you from reading my incoherent mess of a comment. If anyone here has watched Film Theory or Game Theory you should know about Alleles (if you don't, Alleles are basically what decide how you look. For example: If your Grandpa was Blonde and your Dad is a Brunette you yourself can still be blonde because your Dad carries Blonde Alleles but you're more likely to be a brunette because brown hair is dominant and Blonde hair is not) If Goku and Vegeta both had completely normal saiyan features (Tail, Black hair, Black Eyes, Small Body) then those are able to decide how Goten and Trunks look, however they also have S-Cells which are Dominant (as proven by Trunks and Goten as children in the main timeline). With S-Cells being dominant they're more likely to be present in Goten and Trunks, which is why they can go Super Saiyan without traumatic experiences. As an explanation as to how S-Cells work it's obvious but I'll do it anyways: S-Cells are most comparable to adrenaline imo, and anyone who's gone to school should know that adrenaline is what allows your body to "push past it's limits" so to speak. Assuming Saiyan S-Cells are almost identical to Adrenaline that means with enough adrenaline the S-Cells will be activated and provide the extra boost to form Super Sayian. Due to adrenaline rushes being initiated only during times of extreme stress (anything from maternal instincts to bungee jumping) are able to provide superhuman strength, and comparing S-Cells to adrenaline still we can figure out that once S-Cells are activated they stay activated and will initiate when the user requires it (which is able to scientifically explain Goku's famous "It comes to a need, not a desire" which would be the need to survive, the need to be more powerful and overcome the threat) Now not many people know or can do this but it's possible to activate an adrenaline rush on command, however it's very complicated. I can only assume S-Cells are the same and can be activated on command through some training. However unlike Adrenaline, S-Cells are also dominant genes.
They were so close with Vegeta’s Yardrat training as it, in your words, showed a side-grade. They also originally had restrictions (and also specific uses) with the spirit bomb that it couldn’t be done while SSJ (until Broly 1 & Buu Saga took care of that). They keep getting so close to having certain techniques applying in different situations but then revert back to crash boom wallop power vs power. I think modern shounen realised that and adaptation of existing powers is the key to keeping it fresh. Heck even Satan’s effortless dodging of Kid Buu could have been a route to something, even though it was comic relief.
I think the problem is that everyone is sick of "power upgrades". I want to see more new abilities - the moro arc showed vegeta with new abilities and people were excited......only for goku to come in with another, predictable, unlocking a hidden power upgrade. People are sick of it. They've had 20 years of power increases to beat the bad guy. Buu is my favourite character because when he fights, you don't know what new ability will be shown and that makes him exciting. Too bad they rarely use him though
Super Saiyan: A legendary being that has to have a pure heart, unleashed by anger and pain of loss... The way they just starting throwing it out like confetti after the Cell games really hurt the really awesome transformations like Goku's, Gohan's and Future Trunks'. Vegeta too I suppose. But they had this deep meaning to the character and Goten and Trunks sort of ruined that...
Except Goten wasn't play fighting when he transformed the first time ChiChi was wailing on him and he responded in anger to fend her off and we never saw Trunks first transform.
@@darkscot1338 except that WASN'T Goten's first time transforming there just the first time Chichi saw it. Before that flashback Gohan asked how he was able to transform and Goten said he doesn't remember. Why would he say he doesn't remember his first time only to flashback to that "first time"?
For me personally, the moment super sayan declined was when Goten and kid Trunks achieved the legendary form by accident at far younger ages than even Gohan had and did absolute bubkis with the transformation. before that every single super sayan transformation had been earned.
I feel that Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 4 are the only meaningful Super Saiyan forms: One unlocked by achieving previously unseen levels of rage, the other by mastering that and the Oozaru form, combining them together in a new and meaningful way. The fact that these three Saiyan transformations all _look_ meaningfully different also helps. Aside from those two and the Oozaru form itself, none of the Saiyan forms have any impact on me. It's all just copy/pasting the less interesting aspects of Super Saiyan 1 and either removing downsides or swapping a color and saying this justifies putting it on a different order of magnitude of brute force. Changes in levels of brute force _also_ stopped mattering about a quarter of the way into the Namek saga, and the fact that nobody even from other entire "universes" we've been introduced to since the Namek Saga has had sub-Frieza Form 4 power levels just retroactively sullies the escalation and tension in the best parts of the Dragon Ball series. Most of the mystique of the Super Saiyan form itself was never really special to me the first time around; I got Super Sonic in the Sonic videogames a full decade before I saw my first Super Saiyan. When I was watching the anime they started doing reruns of the early episodes about halfway through the Frieza fight; next time I checked in on the show we were partway through the Android saga with Cell's introduction and Super Saiyan was already trivial and meaningless by then. Watching the series again without missing episodes only made it all the clearer how hollow it all was.
Yeah I gotta be hones the power creep is an issue if you think about it. Super Sayian was this mythical god like ability that Frieza, a being who ruled most the known galaxy with his power, feared. Then what a handful of years later it's a joke. Two androids from Earth, a place that previously had thought King Piccolo was the strongest being around, or had trouble with Raddits suddenly has a being that stomps Super Sayians around like toys. From there it just gets worse and worse, power levels and threats just keep rising out of no where. Every time you think you've found a being that has been the "strongest thing in the galaxy" for eons, it's surpassed by another like say Buu and so on. So not only did the show stop giving out power numbers directly, but the rises made no sense. Why were various powers able to rule the galaxy unopposed for so long if stronger being are out there?
It's just natural progression. The show would be very limited if Goku was the only Super Saiyan and that was the absolute peak of power through the whole show. I still think Trunks shouldn't have been a SSJ from the start. He could have gotten it later and that would have made his origin more of a mystery at first.
It's not natural progression. Toriyama just did a horrible transition from a hard magic system to a soft magic system. Gone are the rules and consistency and hello the "just hit them harder" fights.
The problem is that once the Super Saiyan became very popular due to the story of the transformation and the subsequent fight between SSJ Goku and Frieza Toriyama, instead of being careful with it went complete overboard by having the entire series revolve around it and introducing way too many Super Saiyan transformations to the point of it becoming a parody.
You make a really good point about the decline of ssj starting from the moment Trunks was introduced, and I'm inclined to believe you when you say nostalgia affects my view of this scene, but I would like to mention I also have nostalgia when it comes to the Buu saga, I would even say is the saga I remembered the most fondly out of all of DBZ along with the fusion saga, and it's in that saga I have the biggest issue with the show. The fact that Goten and Trunks are able to transform at such a young age has bothered me for years and that was my first pick as to which moment cheapened ssj. At least when Trunks was introduced, ssj was still a very novel thing to watch and we all wanted to see more of it, and there was a gravitas to his situation that lead him to come to the present, you are sucked in the suspense on what's going to happen next. Add to the fact that every single saiyan had to work their ass off and suffer greatly to eventually reached ssj, the form never felt cheap in the cell saga despite it becoming irrelevant with ssj2, which at the time it was unique to Gohan and Gohan was being foreshadowed from the beginning of Z that he was more powerful than Goku.
I look at it like this Super Saiyan is the standard. If you can beat a Super Saiyan or rival one in power you are a decent fighter. Outside of Botamo Goku and Vegeta were both pushed to use Super Saiyan in the God of destruction tournament. If you can compete with forms above Super Saiyan then you are a pretty good fighter If you can compete with the God Forms then you are obviously talented
I always used to it see as : Ss1 was tapping into the power (imperfect Ss) Ss2 was the transformation perfected (perfect Ss) Ss3 was overclocking the transformation I liked that way of seeing it because 1 and 2 mimic Cell’s transformation So, there was only really one transformation, shown as three variants. which is why 1 and 2 are identical save for power output, why 2 eventually just replaces 1 eventually, and why 3 looks so mutated.
Why am I okay with future Trunks and willing to give him a pass? Because as Goku said when training Gohan to transform "the power responds to a need, not a desire". Goku had to push Gohan physically and mentally into a corner in the time chamber to get him to transform. Trucks has that motivation and was out in a situation where it made sense to achieve the form. It wasn't cheaped by him having it. Kid Trunks and Goten however did nothing to earn that power or be put in a position where it would be required and as such has no emotional impact or meaning behind it. Vegeta said as much himself "when did the legendary transformation of the Sayian race become reduced to a child's game?" That is when super Sayian transformation truly hit rock bottom.
adding onto the tingly back topic, when watching the dub, Cabba mentions when you "get used to it" you can focus your power into your back or something around that, so at the very least cabba had offscreen training and so did caulifla since she discovered ssj 2 and grade 3, theoredically grade 2 as well. Personally I use the headcanon that her ssj wasnt fully mastered yet so it took stamina from her still. So looking back at the dub the whole tingly back topic isnt as bad as i remembered.
The reason I didn't mind the whole "Tingly back" thing was because I thought about Saiyan evolution. They used to be covered in fur. A tingly back is basically how it would feel if a great ape suddenly raised its hackles in preperation to fight, similar to how we get goosebumps even now to either make ourselves look bigger or to regulate temperature, both actions having to do with raising body hair/fur.
yeah as someone who liked dragonball but wasn't that into following/keeping up with the community, it felt to me that people really overreacted to how the U6 saiyans got theirs easily and how the transformation is no longer special... as if it it wasn't already rendered that from how trunks and goten got them as KIDS.
this is what makes me appreciate Garlic Jr. Saga so much more. I know people like to make so much fun of it, but everyone ignores the fact that this saga did make use of a majority of characters and made the characters have to rely on something other than transformations and power levels. Goku was kept as that one guy who had achieved this incredible thing, but no one else did, and when a villain came around and Goku wasn't there, it showed that the earth could still protect itself without market man around to save the day. Granted I love Goku to death, but you have to admit when Trunks transformed, it showed that this "legendary form" will be the next staple of measure for strength. Instead of "legendary power needed to fight an unstoppable foe", it became a step, "are you Super Saiyan, or Super Duper Saiyan level of foe?"
the funny thing is that ultra instinkt has been around since early dragon ball but super turned the concept of letting your body move on instinkt to react faster into another transformation which only makes it worse.
Cabba unlocking Super Saiyan turned the transformation from a routine thing back into an awesome moment, brief as it was. It was a moment of growth for the character, and that's what arguably made it the best transformation since Gohan's push into Super Saiyan 2. Sure, he got it pretty quickly, but I think we have Vegeta's experience and teaching methods more to thank for that --- when the prince was trying to unlock it for himself he had to stumble around in the dark for a while and figure everything out on his own, meanwhile here he knew exactly what buttons to press to send Cabba over the edge and into the form, and had no qualms about hitting them (even if it momentarily made everyone worry he was relapsing back to the personality of his Frieza Force days).
Super Saiyan was a Deus Ex Machina that turned into a literary trope that turned into a Deus Ex Machina again. Honestly I think what ruined Super Saiyan was introducing 17 & 18 who by no explanation whatsoever far outstripped everyone in power. If Goku had not been suffering from the heart virus 19 and subsequently 18 would not have been an issue. Vegeta proved that in a single episode, and the ones that followed had Gero running scared from the rest of the Z fighters. They had some interesting gimmicks that made them dangerous to the unprepared (and Yamcha regardless of preparedness) but were otherwise outclassed. These twins being *magnitudes* stronger than the rest of the team _despite Dr. Gero not having any data on the newest capabilities of Goku and the rest_ simply for no other reason than because Toriyama needed a stronger antagonist is where Super Saiyan really took a nosedive. It is what set the standard for Shonen series' constant drive for level grinding. Always trying to get better, to get stronger, to beat the next obstacle by raw power and raw power alone, regardless of what made any kind of sense.
When did it become irrelevant when Android 17&18 came. Honestly there should have been a different way where Vegeta could have been defeated. If I have to be honest Perfect Cell is the first character to properly defeat a Super Saiyan because by that time we are used to it.
Freeze was also defeated with it, twice, and the second time included his dad. Although yeah, 17 and 18 shouldn’t have been able to completely rag doll Super Saiyan.
@@Slender_Man_186 Yeah i feel like they should have tag teamed him and slowly worn him down with energy absorption that way it would still show ssj as powerful as vegeta would start off winning but lose in a battle of endurance due to 17 and 18s infinite energy
For me honestly Super Saiyan Grades 2/3 and Super Saiyan 3 mark the bottom of the barrel. Super Saiyan 3 especially never achieved ANYTHING. No build up, no nothing. It was just suddenly there and nothing came from it. And it is arguably the most ugly of the bunch. With long hair and missing eyebrows. Super Saiyan God is a cool concept with a fiery aura. Blue fire burns hotter (at least as it is portrayed in fiction), so Super Saiyan Blue was an obvious choice. And Ultra Instinct is something different altogether. So I guess in a way Super actually managed to somewhat improve on the idea.
They could have given specific abilities to each form to make them all necessary in their own right. For example, SSG had regeneration properties. They could have developed this form to grant Goku healing and stamina restoration abilities. Moreover, the form seemed to remove some years from Goku, so it could make the user return to his prime. SSB could have been a versatile form with which you could combine techniques such as the Kaioken. Super Saiyan Rosé could have been a form that turns damage into power. Super Saiyan Berserk/Legendary could be a form which powers increase over time. Super Saiyan... maybe its property could be exactly that: to evolve. An ever-improving form that adapts in cases of great emotional distress ( anger ).
It's also harder for some transformations when you have build-ons, like Super Saiyan 3. SSJ3 has been shown only a few times and was at one point a "last resort" kind of transformation. But after you get older powers like Super Saiyan 1 boosted up, you show that for nostalgia, then switch to later boosts like Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 get skipped over entirely. Not new enough to be current, not old or iconic enough to be nostalgic, other things that once were the cream of the crop are not able to cut it, nor are people reflecting back on it. And when it does show up, it's mostly just a tool to be beaten (I.E., SSJ3 getting flicked by Beerus or SSJ2 Trunks able to spar with SSJ3 Goku). It's a hard balancing act to keep things special when you have so many of them. It's also funny how SSJ1 is so out-classed by humanly-built robots. If you think about it, we on earth had the power to overtake Frieza, who was supposed to be the strongest being aside Majin Buu and Beerus. I never really understood that part. How do robots made of metal known to human kind outclass Frieza, when fighting people with robotic parts (like Mercenary Tao) is child's play for Super Saiyans like Gohan? Toriyama is known for choosing here-and-now narrative over the over-aching lore. It's good at the time, but as a discussion about hindsight, it makes little sense and is hard to keep track of.
The transformation I was most excited about that has also been power-crept into irrelevance; Super Saiyan God. The idea that there was this form that required all of the Saiyan's cooperating to create makes it a last-ditch form, certainly not the every-day form that all other Super Saiyan forms are. I also loved that, rather than bulking up, Goku was thinner, leaner and (Red hair side) looked like normal Goku. In Battle of Gods, Goku seemed calmer, more focused than regular Super Saiyan and so it looked and worked in a unique way to all others. ...Then Super Saiyan Blue came along and kicked that to the kerb by looking and working exactly the same as all other Super Saiyan forms, just even more powerful making the God form pointless.
While you're right about the BEGINNING, I think the big hit that took it down a huge peg was the tweens having it. Like it was simple. The death knell was how trivial the Tourney of Power made going through the different levels in minutes by the other saiyans that took our heroes years to do. Though I will say the problem with super saiyan is that, after it was introduced, no non-saiyans could keep up and maintain a real presence. Piccolo got A fight after a huge buff to be relevant physically, but everything else was saiyans or a few bits of drama with Tien and Krillin. The Android Saga was also when the "let's wait for Goku" thing was getting annoying for me. I think that's why Gohan ended the fighting with Cell because even Toriyama could see that pattern forming. Then it went right back to it in the next saga.
Nice discussion on the state of Super Saiyan Masako. For Super Saiyan began to decline and lose its value is in the Buu Arc where Goten and Trunks attained it rather easily and the usage of Super Saiyan 3 where Goku used it as a flashy transformation to quickly end the opponent it revealed that Super Saiyan 3 was unstable for the living body.
Note that this is *My opinion* if you disagree that's fine I honestly like hearing it from another perspective, with that said this might be a bit long so I'll just cover the important part's in my opinion. I'd say it's about quality and quantity. At the beginning when Goku unlocked the form it was amazing and world shattering that it changed people's perception on the show dragging in millions of viewers and fans. From there they introduced more and more transformations and users of the form. Including the old Bardock movie and dragon ball legends there are about 12 super saiyans. Along with that more transformations being introduced. The quality is reduced due to how many times they use the forms. For instance against almost every foe since starting the android saga they kept using the form for almost everything. Even in super Goku uses *Blue* for almost everything. It reduces the quality as it's used so often that at this point it's just "Oh yeah super saiyan" Along with that with their being so many it just doesn't feel unique or earned anymore. Along with that there are counting GT as well. There are about six forms, if you count rose, rage form and evolution blue then nine (Not counting ultra instinct and the graded forms of ssj as it's a *Technique* not a *Transformation*) After all now it's just wearing color contacts and dyeing your hair as the multipliers no longer matter as it's never implemented. It's lost it's unique charm it was around the buu saga that it didn't feel special anymore especially with the introduction of more forms. At this point it's natural and makes me question why the other saiyans in universe 7 never had the form.
To me the decline of the Super Sayian started in the Buu saga where it becames just some boost of energy and power. Personally, I think it would be cool if the why of the Super Sayian where more explored. Like: in the final fight versus Freezer, Goku start tapping into the power of the Super Sayian. But, when you discover Trunks and Vegeta can do it too, you learn that it is in fact a power that can appear in very strong Sayian. Then in the Cell saga, they experiment with that power, creating multiple form with various power and effectivity. And in the end, Gohan succeed in mastering the power of the Super Sayian, making him some sort of “Perfect Super Sayian” (not the canonical one). And after that, instead of simply punching things really hard, and/or throwing balls/beam of energy really fast, they would try to use that power to make various techniques. And when the “Perfect Super Sayian” will be outmatched, they would try to use other power: Mystic power with the Kaio, divine power with Beerus, and cosmic(?) energy for the Ultra-Instinct. However, with these modifications it wouldn’t be this show of total Epicness, and I still love Dbz despite it flaws!
I like to think Caulifia got Super Saiyan through excitement and thrill as well. There's no rule saying that Super Saiyan can't be obtained through only negative emotions. It's just like how Sarada got her Sharingan through the excitement of seeing Sasuke for the first time.
Fusion isn't really a Dragon Ball thing in Japan. The source of it is Devilman, though franchises like SMT cranked it up to 11 and others made use of it in their own way.
I hope in a future arc of Super they focus on transformations for earthlings and namekians so Krillin, Yamcha, Tien and Piccolo so they could catch up to Goku and Vegeta. Their transformations can be based on their fighting styles and individual characteristics.
The way I looked at Trunks' obliteration of Freeza and Cold translated as: This new saga will include villains and conflicts make Freeza look tame. Perhaps, it's because it wasn't long after watching the Freeza fight that I purchased the cassette tape of Freeza vs Trunks, but Super Saiyan never fully lost its luster for me. I wonder how fans of Dragon Ball interpreted the introduction and exposition of Goku's new Saiyan origin. Suddenly, this talented, albeit strange Earthling is now an alien, and it was dropped on the audience strikingly quickly. Did that cause some audience to lose their fondness of Goku after all they had known about him had been upheaved?
I think it would've been an interesting concept to have a Saiyan transformation that used magic in some shape or form, instead of the usual ki. I mean we have seen magic in places throughout the Dragon Ball series, and if you can channel God Ki into the SSJ form to create SSJB, why not for once have a Saiyan transformation be more than brute force power up? Piccolo can very easily manifest things like clothes, probably other things too, through what can be assumed to be an application of magic, something not unheard of among Namekians. Maybe ask Super Kami Dende to teach someone in the main cast?
You know, MasakoX, I had a thought: What if the Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama increased Goku's S-cells while he was gathering energy and Krillin's death was the trigger to the transformation. It would add another element of all these things coming together to make the transformation possible.
super saiyan UI its a better name, and the idea isn't that bad but Goku should Only use it with omen because hes using ssj at the same time making it impossible to use UI to its maximum, it hould make ssj more important since only the first ssj can be used with UI and UI hould also Stay important.
SS4 was by far the Best Transformation in DBZ History IMHO. The ideal behind it is perfect to the Sayians ancestry. Maybe they should make it Canon again.
I think super vegeta and super sayan 3 were cool ideas, just like kaiokens because they felt like techniques with their own strong points and weak points, also the genkidama to some extent. And also creating those sort of technique's that tent just "a powerful beam" but more like what vegeta got in the moro arc could make some old characters relevant because maybe someone like tien becomes great at blocking opponents with his 4 arms or maybe piccolo with his stretchy arms becomes really good at catching opponents that move fast like dispo. Maybe someone like yamcha is a boxer style of character, similar to rocky, not quite as strong in raw power (maybe with kaioken it's at least decent) but can outlast opponents by dodging and he has developed a wolf fang fist style that aims to exploit opponents that are tired. But as you said they need to sell those toys, and all of them are just goku or maybe vegeta with different dyed air
I think Toriyama mentioned that "kindness" is a key trait in getting the SSJ transformation. Thus, it was only possible for Vegeta to access it after he'd gotten together with Bulma. :P Also, from what we've seen, pure-blood Saiyans don't usually form very strong emotional bonds quite in the same way as humans do - Just look at how much Goku ignores his wife, while being quite kind and certainly caring about his family.... he's just not that close, y'know. That's probably why the half-bloods have such an easy time of it. One could even hypothesize that the reason Saiyans don't have such close bonds is because they're so strong - they do not need other individuals to survive as much, unlike weak and squishy humans.
To me it was when Kid Trunks & Goten could go Super Saiyan. I can forgive the Android/Cell Saga with the androids easily overcoming the form at the beginning BUT it took the Saiyans finally mastering SSJ1 (Fourth Grade) to actually overcome them & even move on to SSJ2. Plus, all the Saiyans had an emotional reason as to why they went SSJ.
Thought of a what if that could have easily happened. What if Vegeta went super saiyan rage (like future Trunks did against Goku Black) when Beerus hit Bulma. Given that it is powerful enough to hold it's own against super saiyan rosé, it must be more powerful than super saiyan god and impress beerus.
"IT IS WHAT IT IS, as it were." SCATHING, MASAKO!!! Golden writing. A+++ Also, for me, Super Saiyan was useless the moment two five year olds accomplished it. Universe 6 literally needed to catch up to something, just to compete, and did nothing wrong.
I think it goes back to the idea of the Zone of proximal development. In other words its easier to learn from a teacher than figure it out yourself. It all seemed natural to me. The original Super Saiyan couldn't control it and therefore couldn't teach it to others. We don't know which form was the original super saiyan's form.
As much as I loved SSJ in the first Freiza fight, the decline of SSJ and thereafter couldn't come soon enough. Dragonball needs diversity in it's combat. The biggest reason abilities and transformations become obsolete is there are not enough unique tradeoffs to new ones to make old ones stay relevant. Nor do the antagonist make it necessary to keep old ones relevant. The ToP was a breath of fresh air in this regard to a degree. It was nice to see old characters become more relevant. I think the notion that SSJ level powers and beyond are an unattainable achievement by anyone else is absurd. I like the idea of the tools you have and the skill at which you use them being a bigger play on combat ability than solely raw power. Still, Vegeta4life.
Remember in the ToP arc when Goku switched between Blue and God forms to take advantage of their differences? It’d be great to see something like that again - different forms could be most useful in different situations. Wouldn’t it be cool if Goku was getting trounced in UI, but discovered a hitherto-unknown quirk in the original Super Saiyan form that made it the best form for the task at hand? Or perhaps if that’s too much of a stretch we could see UI and Super Saiyan combined...I’m just spitballing here but I just think it would be cool if instead of every form being just ‘the same, but better’ each form had its pros and cons, like a Swiss Army knife of transformations. It might require some form of retcon to work but it would lend a bit more strategy to fights.
That's something that the Goku Black Arc Manga honestly did better than the anime. It made old forms more relevant. Like Vegeta turning to SSG to use that switch technique with Blue or Future Trunks using an advanced form of SSJ2.
There was a chance to make SS special to Goku and Vegeta by allowing Gohan his ultimate form or mystic. Whichever it is. That power exclusive ot Gohan or potentially the hybrids would have put them in their own place while the pure blooded Saiyans get thing like Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan blue. And that exclusivity having its own place was made apparent with Gohan going toe to toe with SSB Goku. It could be something he could teach to Trunks and Goten or even Pan. And when the fights go on the hybrids can use this ultimate form and when that isn't enough it gives Goku and Vegeta more shine to their own SS power. Making it special.
Thanks for watching! Hope you're all having a great day and stay safe. :)
I Hope you have a great day
Take care of yourself
I remember SSJ4 when they said that form makes u sociopathic and lose a good amount of ur morals.
I have a question. I can understand the world becoming more modern and similar to ours as time passes. But what happened to the beast people? It seems like the human population reacts surprised by them but in the og dragonball they were common placed. In the beginning of z the police chief was a dog dude.
Such a great topic to discuss. Honestly you always find a way to keep us talking.
To me, the introduction of Super Sayian was a huge boost to the Dragon Ball franchise, but also needed to be handled carefully to avoid it simultaneously becoming the overall death knell for the franchise. And unfortunately, it wasn't.
See, before the introduction of Super Sayian, fights in Dragon Ball or DBZ were never solely about raw power. It was a huge factor, but things like teamwork, tactics, techniques, even skill could close power gaps to various degrees. Even techniques like the Kaioken* and Genkidama were high risk/reward powers that required sacrifices to pull off, so they couldn't just be spammed for an instant win.
Super Sayian made things solely about raw power. All of the clever tactics against Frieza, all the team-work, sacrifice plays, even superior martial arts skill, none of it mattered. It came down to who had more raw power, and that was it. And if had been that way SOLELY for Frieza, it wouldn't have mattered. It would have been that culmination of a prophecy giving Goku enough power to defeat someone who required raw power to defeat.
Having more Super Sayians wasn't the problem. Making it some form Sayians could aspire to reach made sense, and the idea that it unlocked this massive amount of raw potential within them was cool. But then they needed to either make it a power boost to close the gap with more powerful opponents, or give Super Sayian it's own drawbacks.
For instance, the focus on anger and rage could have giving it a limitation that a Super Sayian can't use more advanced tactics and techniques. That could have been a reason why they couldn't use the Kaioken in conjunction with Super Sayian mode: the technique is just too complex to use while in Super Sayian. It could have created instances where there'd be an excuse not to use Super Sayian mode when more tactics or skill was required. Goku out of Super Sayian mode could have fought more like an experienced martial arts master, while Goku in Super Sayian mode fights more like a brawler. It could have been a way to showcase the difference between Goku and Vegita. Vegita would see Super Sayian mode as the solution to every problem, while Goku would be willing to go in and out of Super Sayian mode depending on the situation.
The other thing that cheapened Super Sayian was the idea of "grades". Making Super Sayian 2 specifically a unique upgraded form of Super Sayian meant that the base form was now something lesser, and afterwards everything was going to be about who had the most powerful and newest form of Super Sayian. They should have simply gone with the idea that Gohan's "Super Sayian 2" was simply the expression of Gohan cutting loose for the first time, completely tapping into his raw potential and THAT was why his Super Sayian mode was more powerful. Super Sayian should simply be a boost to the base form's power, so to get stronger you need to train in your basic form. In this way, whoever was the stronger Super Sayian would depend solely on how strong their base form was.
By making the series all about raw power, by not giving Super Sayian any drawbacks and by introducing "grades" of Super Sayian, DBZ completely crippled the idea of the basic Super Sayian form, so that they'd HAVE to release multi-colored hair modes, different hair styles and the like to remain relevant. Super Sayian should have simply been a unique visual cue that the Sayians are going all out and favoring power over technique, not an easy indicator of who's more powerful.
*And as a sidenote, the humans should have absolutely been taught the Kaioken as a way to keep them relevant. The very act of training with the Kaioken would have toughened them up and made them stronger, and allowed them to stay relevant to the series. Especially if the show didn't become about raw power and could have allowed weaker but skilled characters to still have a chance.
Trying to keep Super Saiyan 1 unique, and giving humans Kaio-Ken could've been cool.
Amazing analysis! :) I've worked on a rewrite here and there and I also feel that drawbacks are important. Need to have more drama and meaningfulness from techniques/forms so they won't become irrelevant and force the creators to come up with a new form every saga. Cool at first, but, later on...hmm.
Except there are some error.
The Super Sayan is a multiplier and the base form is vital.
If you compare Goku and Vegeta you understand that Vegeta was weaker in his base and he need Babidi's mark.
@@stefanocremonini2656 While that's probably the case, I don't recall that ever being stated in series, likely comes from a second hand source like a guide book or interview, and given Toriyama's bad memory, who knows if it really matters. I could well be wrong, but my point is ultimately more about how to make Super Sayian function in a way that doesn't cheapen it or break the setting.
@@Paxchi vegeta and Gohan are the two cases.
As an hybrid Gohan has a huge abyss in his base compared to Goku and Vegeta to the point were Mystic Gohan can easily take down Gotenks ss3,Goku ss3 and Majin Vegeta ssj2
When it became so basic that you're not a true saiyan if you can't transform. The fact that Vegeta was suprised by Cabba's inability that showed how simple it became.
Tbf cabba in vegetas eyes was Alternate Universe him, and vegeta achieved SSJ decades prior while going WAY beyond and these people were meant to be more evolved than them so it makes sense he would be surprised
@@bnbnism not to mention vegeta could sense Cabba's Ki. He knew Cabba was strong enough to do it.
@@jamesfitzgerald1684 true true which is also something people overlook ALOT, Cabbas base was like far higher than Gokus or Vegetas when they first went SSJ
@@bnbnism yea , some people completely neglect the fact that power creep exist in DBZ. They put out statements like SSJ2 Gohan is stronger than SSJ2 Cabba when it's like no heck no
People don't seem to realize that the U6 saiyans have every right to learn SSJ and SSJ2 so quickly. They had advantages over Goku and Vegeta to learn the two SSJ forms.
-Goku and Vegeta had to learn by themselves, having no idea how to even do it. Goku not being concerned about it at all and Vegeta being too arrogant to accept he wasn't one yet.
-The U6 saiyans naturally pick up techniques easily because they're saiyans
-Goku and Vegeta can turn SSJ on like a flashlight, it's easy to teach that to a couple of quick-learners.
Remember back in the day when Super Saiyan 1 in the Frieza Saga was a huge deal and the most powerful force in the universe?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Remember when people used to use the meme Pepperidge Farm remembers?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Back then Whis was the stronger in this universe... he still is...
It is still one of the most powerful forces in the universe..... When it is used by Broly
*during Super Saiyan Bargain Sale*
Oprah Winfrey: "YOU'RE A SUPER SAIYAN! YOU'RE A SUPER SAIYAN! EVERYBODY IS A SUPER SAIYAN!"
Lol 😂
“I wanna be a super saiyan, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna!”
@Brian BabinLike for real Z had big power ups but at least those power ups were more earned
@Brian BabinFacts I'm a future Trunks fan and I'm super ultra pissed at that ending they gave them unreasonable power ups for him to get the job done and it wasn't even worth it in the end
Lmfaooo
MadakoX: Is Super Saiyan declining?
Frieza: It had better be!
I'll drink to that.
@@cooler1679 How's the afterlife
@@studentNEET319
Still waiting for the cannon call. And my point is. Super Saiyan was never good.
@@cooler1679 ok
Don't worry btw try training to assert dominance over frieza
@@studentNEET319
What do you think I'm doing right now?
I think it was Goten and Trunks that did it. They're just able to do it when we saw all the other characters have to struggle to attain the form and those moments actually fueled the narrative. At least with Future Trunks it added to the mystery of "who is this kid," and Gohan going SS2 was meant to be the culmination of the character. After the Cell saga though, it felt more like "hey check out these new forms!"
agreed, which is why it felt weird to me how many people only started talking how it lost its shine when U6 saiyans got it easily, when literally children could already do it easily.
Trunks became a super saiyan litteraly chapters after goku
Then vegeta got it, the gohan got it granted vegeta's reasons where good but it was of screened
@@user-gk6nt5gi5n all of these were explained at least. It just happened to Goten and present Trunks.
Agreed.
@@christiancrusader9374Yeah but to be fair kid Trunks having super saiyan makes a little sense he just needs an emotional back story
I think we can all agree that Super Saiyan is now just another form of Base form. Not a power up; a variation.
Eleos -7 mostly because of them mastering it
@@user-nr6is3eh2c no the point but your not wrong
Eleos -7 I mean he can go blue why go to a basic form unless they’re trying to keep energy
It's still a power up just not a useful one.
Ever since the Android Saga, I always thought the "Super Sayian" more as a "Battle Form" kinda like Sailor Moon going full magical girl, or the Power Rangers Morphin Up. Since it was literally used in any fight that mattered by anyone that had it.
Ah, Super Saiyans. The Legend turned simple plot device.
I really like it in DBGT: A Hero's Legacy where Super Saiyan is given the respect that it deserves again. You get to see Goku jr struggles so hard and becomes one and it was quite satisfying.
3:50 Vegeta: "Oh my heart is pure. Pure. Unadulterated. Badass.
Tien: Yeah. More like pure unadulterated ego.
@@justinpullen1097 Vegeta: "I heard that Triclops!"
@@darkscot1338 Tien: Is that a problem?
Ahh Vegeta the saiyan with most number if Ls under his name lol
@@sammydray5919 also the second most Ws
The first transformation like that I think is actually just a foreshadowing; that Kaio-Ken against Ginyu is iconic Goku.
It became a bargain sale?
Always has been
Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 mission "Super Saiyan Bargain Sale" ... One of my favourite missions
One of my favorite vegeta quotes.
More like a super saiyan Opera giveaway
Vegeta states it in the English Dub Buu Saga when he saw Kid Trunks turn Super Saiyan. It was one of those memes before memes were a thing situations.
Well i guess you could argue transformations in general are just a way to sell toys now
Honestly multiple saiyan form isnt a problem in and of itself. But toriyama power crept its cast. The new transformations makes everything else obsolete instead of having different niches
Look how far we've come and I'm still wondering what happened to the genius martial artist Tien or even Piccolo who's been relegated to mentor status to the point where in the Broly movie he was more useful as the mentor who sat on the side to teach them something after they got their asses kicked. Wtf does shonen jump have against genius fighters Tien and Neji deserved better.
This
It would have been much more interesting if the characters kept improving on SSJ in their own ways instead of having a new SSJ number every week
Like say:
Gohan - SSJ - masters SSJ - Ascended SSJ
Vegeta - SSJ - bulky SSJ - becomes Majin - learn god ki - SSJ Blue (going SSJ using said god ki instead of normal ki) - mastered Blue
Goku - Kaioken - SSJ - masters SSJ - Super Kaioken
Later you could have him get SSG through the ritual and/or become a golden oozaru to obtain Ikari SSJ(SSJ4)
True. Batman sells tons of "ice suit Batman", "fire suit Batman", "ninja Batman", etc. variants, most of which are insanely laughable and don't even show up in any media - but you know from how Batman DOES use other equipment why you would want each of them. If Super Sayians powers worked like a toolkit, each toy would stay relevant and keep selling. "It's a Majin! Goku needs to switch to Super Saiyan Purple Polkadotted to fend off the Majin ki so it doesn't corrupt him! Buy your Super Saiyan Purple Polkadotted Goku figure today!"
With Goku, though, the only reason you buy SSJ1 figures is if you have a nostalgia for the first Frieza fight, or just because you happen to like it aesthetically. Most of the ones I've seen even have the blood from the Frieza fight. Meanwhile, "Ice suit Batman" has been done repeatedly to match different cartoon series' over the years. Each time to fight that generation's version of Mr. Freeze.
@@Merennulli Oh yeah, ice suit Batman. The costume he'll use for one episode at most and will beat Mr. Frezze without it next time he fights it. It's like how Superman TAS had a space suit for Superman, you know, for breathing in space.
@@vanjagalovic3621 As I mentioned, Batman never used many of the suits in any episode. But they worked as merchandise because they had clear, distinct functions that kids could understand enough to want.
As for Superman's space suit, his powerset varies over incarnations. At the time, the logic was that he was just really good at holding his breath in space. (Despite talking. In space...)
4:06 *how Vegeta actually attained Super Saiyan*
Vegeta: "I WANNA BE A SUPER SAIYAN! I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA! I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA!"
He probably had that moment but Hercule’s cameras weren’t on.
You mean by situps,push ups and plenty of soup.
@@AhmedHussain-ju6xd Not soup, juice. Big difference. :P
@@mathunit1 how could I have mistaken so much! I will edit it right away
Super Saiyan’s been in decline ever since The Great Bargain Sale of ‘93.
I think it started in the Android saga. Then they had to create evolutions of the forms one after another.
The second two teenage androids could beat it without trying much at all, it became a joke. Then SS2 became a joke in the Buu saga and SS3 became a joke in the same saga it was introduced.
To be fair, the Androids are supposed to show why they are a threat for a reason.
The Worf Effect you know
@@okagron agreed
@@okagron Well the villains keep getting stronger as the story progresses.
@@harshavardhanvaidya938 You say that as if its a good thing
6:31 At least Cabba and Kale got their Super Saiyan by being enraged. While Caulifla got her Super Saiyan just by feeling a tingling on her back.
Yeah but kale was simply being a whiny b*tch.
@@desertsandfly2277 So was vegeta tbf and people dont throw a hissy fit over that lol
@@origamininja380 I think why people hate that whole scene so much is because that wasn't really a training session like how gohan, vegeta, trunks technically if you count training with F gohan but they all had some emotional weight to it.
@@origamininja380 Maybe? but Vegeta was actually enduring harsh training, not getting it through being jealous of LITERALLY NOTHING.
@@origamininja380 Vegeta had legitimate reasons
Kale is just a jealous Yandere who simps hard for "Sister"
Super Saiyan kinda became a joke when an old man in his basement created a bunch of toasters who were stronger than it :( And then one of the toasters can magically rival Super Saiyan Blue because he defend animals against poachers on some random island. WTF?
Never underestimate the power of Human Science and Technology.
Don't disrespect nature.
I never understood a problem with that. Oh yeah most people didnt watch Dragon Ball and missed when Roshi said there is always someone stronger.
America Eagle Prior to Z the strongest being on earth had a power level of what? 450?
It makes no sense how Gero could create beings with power levels in the 100s of millions, especially considering previous Red Ribbon androids weren’t capable of beating KID Goku.
@@pongopunch6349 scientific advancements bro.
Dragonball is like WOW. Every expansion makes the previous entirely irrelevant. Sucks.
Pretty sure it began the moment Goten and Trunks where able to transform as children.
S-cELls
I personally excused it since Goku and Vegeta mastered Super Saiyan by that point.
Well, not in Vegeta's case as he only just started using it after Trunks was born, but he was close enough that I feel like it could get a pass in the genetic pool.
@@saltystick_99 true... Plus before s cells it's also stated that half bloods have more potential than full ones. Except the so half bloods don't have the drive to constantly fight. That Saiyan instinct is dull in comparison.
@@saltystick_99 I mean yeah, I've read many theories on how and why Goten and Trunks where able to go SSJ in such an early age, and they do have good evidence backing them up.
But story wise it feels kinda... what's a good word to describe it? Unsatisfying? Maybe if they showed us that they didn't have full control over their transformation at first, and they had to train to master there new forms it would make more sense?
Then again this is the same show that thought it was a good idea to have two toddlers fight Majin Buu, so it's safe to say logic is not exactly a strong suit of the Dragon Ball franchise.
@@alexanderstavroulakis335 But love it or hate it.
I think we can agree it would be worse if Trunks and Goten could go Super Saiyan 3 straight outta the womb without fusing into Gotenks.
There’s also the occurrence around the same time when Piccolo managed to leapfrog the base power of SSJ to take on 17, who’d handily proven capable of handling the first level Super Saiyan form with ease (as you touched on). That proved that while SSJ was certainly an impressive upgrade, it wasn’t necessarily the universal dominator the legends claimed it was and that (in theory) it was possible for non-Saiyans to reach the same heights with sufficient work and the right help.
This got even more highlighted Pre-ToP, when Piccolo just shrugged off SSJ2 Gohan like it was nothing. But the biggest example of this would be Jiren, who seemingly got to where he is simply through grinding alone, with seemingly no transformations, shortcuts or hacks (like zenkais) necessary. Which is honestly a *way* more impressive feat than any SSJ form could achieve when you think about it. If he'd been a better written character, it would have almost felt a shame to see him lose in the end.
Jiren's only "Forms" are just percentages of his full power and then a sort of limit breaker for when a Goku comes along so he can push past his full power meanwhile Goku has *12 Forms* at his disposal. Jiren could've been the biggest badass ever but his backstory was utter crap
Well Broly had that whole thing were his super saiyan form is some kind of freak combination of super saiyan and the oozaru.
thats the golden ape and ssj4, so does that mean... BROLY COULD ACHIEVE SSJ4
@@mithmoonwalker I mean he technically did right?
SS1 + Oozaru = SS4
Basically once you use the oozaru power, go SS and BOOM, you have discount SS4
@@Goated876 Actually thats missing a step thats usually skipped over
Oozaru and SSJ are massive components, yes, but people forget that simply going SSJ while in Oozaru is not only hard but also not going to immediately throw you into SSJ4
So as a math equation it'd look more like this
Saiyan + Blutz Waves = Oozaru
Oozaru + SSJ = Golden Oozaru
Golden Oozaru + Self Control = SSJ4
@@vd6070 With that information, I can add even more to it.
Oozaru + self control = Broly's oozaru(Ikari)
Ikari + SSJ1 = Discount SSJ4(50x boost with another 10x boost)
Ikari + "LSSJ" = Discount LSSJ4(?)
New Broly is basically the reboot version of SSJ4.
Everyone knows that Base Form Goku is actually his most powerful state, Masako!
Just ask Super Android #17 and Omega Shenron!
and if I recall Whis :P I loved the idea that base is best ^^
And dont forget Evil KidBuu
GT isn't canon
@@vulgrim909 my head cannon is that its the neighboring time line to super where beerus never woke up
8:27 Future Trunks is the reason why we make OC Saiyans and half-Saiyans to be part of Dragon Ball Z universe in fanfics, fan animation and fan arts.
I think when super saiyan lost its edge is when the power stopped coming to a need and started becoming only a desire like goku said "power responses to a need not a desire" because that was the core of the form and many other forms.
The narrative weight it had has changed a lot. Used as a kind of limit break (back before the term had any meaning) stemming from a Saiyan going to their limits physically and emotionally and still needing to go further, not wanting but *needing* at a level of tragic rage (Goku, Trunks) or pathological obsession (Vegeta) it's a great device. Buuuut yeah after that it gets a little silly.
Also, kinda tangential, but Trunks and Goten make a significant amount of sense if you consider it in terms of trauma and epigenetics. You shouldn't, because that sort of thing has no bearing on a story about magical dragons and super kung fu, but it does work.
Super saiyan was something really special especially ssj2 which was honestly its peak now it's like, ah yeah another hair color that makes u stronger because reasons
Uncommon opinion here. Perhaps we just have to remember that Super Saiyan is not a mysterious, godly legend. It's nothing more than the lore of an tribe from outer space. Some saiyan natives who can fall in a terrifying rage with their hair and eyes changing color. In a sense nothing special, not more than Friezas transformations, the metamoran and namekian fusion technique or the yardratian skills.
I know it was portrayed to us as being the pinnacle of reachable power, but even in-universe, it was nothing more than alien folklore. Perhaps Toriyama wanted to remind us on that.
And later in the ToP, I think it became pretty obvious - because every universe had races who thought of themselves as the exact pinnacle of power like the fandom sees in the Super Saiyan Transformation.
Even if it is a big step down, I think it's an acceptable way to accomplish two deeper goals: give other characters their possibility to shine, and to make the saiyans appear more human, give them storywise the ability to still train and become stronger - and not relying on mystical on/off buttons or singular heroes who oitclass everything per se. That would quickly become boring.
The first time we saw SSJ; it was the awakening of a 1000 year legend. It was an iconic moment on the series.
But now Pan is literally the only Canon Saiyan or Saiyan Hybrid to not have the form now. Its now just part being Saiyan.
Bulla?
That’s tough for Pan
Tarble?
So right, this became even more apparent after vegeta just asks cabba casually to transform to super saiyan even though he knows that the super saiyan form is a legendary transformation that comes once in a millenia.
@ReAwakenZ
Keyword being "now".
I remember when I thought Krillin was Gohan's best friend. Granted, I first watched the series when they landed at namik.
What i still cant get over is the fact that gero was able to create something that was so powerfull. Gohan hat to go beyond ssj to defeat it in a closecall.
Well, cell is a dna combination of every z fighter and freeza and king cold, and he also absorbed the androids, who were stronger than the z fighters soooo I guess it makes sense (?)
@@itsjustaspider yeah but c17 and 18 where humans. that kind of mortals that have a powerlvl of 1-5. and 18 wooped vegis ass after he just got ssj. not to forget that 16 was a pure robot. imagine that power in og db. if 8 was that kind of powerhouse.
Hell how did Dr. Gero create machines more powerful than Frieza?
I mean Frieza was supposed to be unstoppable force ruling the universe.
How did no other inventor throughout the universe accomplish what a man hiding in the mountains accomplished?
@@Johncornwell103
It depends on a few things.
1. Gero had been spying on Goku and company for a long time, only stopping shortly after the Saiyan Saga. It gave him plenty of data to work with. Ironically though, he didn't send a drone after them to Namek...
2. Gero's androids had their own advantages. Such as not being detectable via KI sensing and being able to steal the energy of others. If played right, that could be a deadly combination.
3. Cell and #21 were created from fusing the DNA of several warriors, and were thus granted their abilities, and could even combine them. Cell using Namekian regeneration to give himself a Saiyan Zenkai for example.
4. In case of his death, Gero had back up labs with supercomputers to keep his work going. In FighterZ, #16 said there were many of said labs across the Earth...
5. The only thing I had a problem with, ironically, was how he gave #17, #18, and maybe #16, "unlimited energy" since it was never explained...
Galactic Emperor who explodes planets with his finger as a type of intimidation to other planets under his control VS. A disgraced, resource-less engineer in some lab in a mountainside on a backwater planet.
The results will surprise you.
A good transformation needs to have at least 2 of these 3 things
1) An explanation of what the form is
and how the character got it
2) Foreshawdowing
3) Some kind of drawback when the form is first used.
This is why I hate SSJ Rage
Facts lol. When he got a form stronger than ssjb lol.
I think Saiyans are an evolving species-they are just learning and adapting over time but the writers are leaving too much of the story out now for us to see the actual changes.
Back in the day of Frieza, yes some of the battles were pretty long, but the intensity was there to make you want to see what happens next. The story kept you going because your favorite characters were facing a challenge that you wanted to see them overcome as individuals and as part of the Z team/cast. The story now is lacking, and many facts and characters are getting twisted for no reason that we are needing better story to clarify- or else are finding embarrassed for our favorite character.
So yes, I can see how nostalgia is in the way of Super, but this is why we need better writing. We would not be feeling so lost or our favorite characters being ruined by Super, if the development of the characters were shown on camera and more of what is going on to make us understand. For example, I love Future Trunks, but why could we not have seen him stay in past and developed into Xeno? What about his rage transformation?
Also, I know comedy is part of Super but there are moments in Super where the comedy is just stupid and not funny because the characters are just out of character, like Trunks getting on his knees mistaking Whis for Beerus, I'm sorry but I dont see Vegeta's son doing that. It is not him especially Future Trunks even if he is facing a god. Or Vegeta with the whole pacifier bit, again not something Vegeta would be willing to do.
So yes, I think the problem is in the writing of the show and how it is not paying attention to their audience, and to the show's own past history(-Mai being way too old for Trunks to be with romantically since she was a main villain when Goku was a kid) and their audience's responses to the material. We love this show but no one likes their favorite characters being ruined by lazy writers.
@Peace Ecaep Thank you. Its been fixed.
The evolving species part i like and think is one of the things GT did well. Oozaru was too dangerous and impractical to use so they stuck with super saiyan, a more efficient form. As they ramped up their ki consumption like for ssj3 they got a little more aggressive and primal looking. Then oozaru was brought back as that uncontrolled source of power to then be finally tamed and refined in a best of both worlds ssj4 form.
So far the god forms are just inject god ki and then go through hair colors. It is treated as saiyan exclusive when god ki is not and there is just no connection to their race anymore other than name. It is all just god ki, nothing saiyan unique about it so to speak
@@bluecanine3374 Yes, we can definitely see that in Dragonball, Z, and GT. Since Saiyans learn and adapt as they go, once they see something or experience it, they can adapt it and use as their own. That's why I can see them always evolving and changing, like getting a god form. But it would be nice to see the changes happen on screen, like seeing Vegeta obtaining red god form which we see he can all of a sudden in Resurrection of Frieza.
@@Stephanie-kh6nx The Super Manga even acknowledged SSJG Vegeta more than the anime did, so in a way Super was *supposed* to have SSJG Vegeta be more prominent but they tossed it aside for "SuPeR sAiYaN bLuE"
Mai was turned back into a kid with Emperor Pilaf's accidental wish. So physically she is the same age as trunks.
I’d say when Goten went SS before he could fly was the downfall.
Hey Masako I finally got the Ranch plush I ordered in the mail yesterday! It's Super.
Also the tingling back description sounds like Cabba figured out the actual mechanics of turning Super Saiyan. Maybe Universe 6 Saiyans have a better understanding of their biology and Ki flow.
Dragon Ball has always had a problem of introducing something awesome and then immediately making it irrelevant. You never actually get to enjoy it.
Edit: I made this comment before finishing the video and realized I just said everything he did. Lol
Yeah man I agree, especially with Ultimate Gohan such a cool thing just to be another "weak" power up like everything else
@@Koel_Hellion Right? ultimate Gohan was amazing. I'd be okay with all these forms as they have like some sort of strategic value where they all had their strengths and weaknesses. But they always make itthis one makes this one obsolete and they throw in like one little detail the like o Super Saiyan God is really fast but that's it. And they utilize it for like 1 episode.
Veiotic tbf, unlike GT, Super is actually trying to have Gohan develop his PU form into a unique thing for himself. He seems genuinely dedicated to becoming powerful in his own way... now if only he could actually be something more than just third fiddle for the Z Fighters.
@@metatron6262 I'm not saying super is bad I love dragon ball as a whole I'm not even a GT fan. I would just love to see them utilize more of the shows potential than just constantly adding new abilities and pumping up Vegeta and Goku.
I honestly don't understand how Android 17 and 18 were so strong. If they were originally humans how does Android 17 rival SSB. Yet Toriyama screws the human characters who also probably train
When everyone is super, no one is.
-Syndrome
Not going to lie, I was starting to lose interest in this channel (the what if’s and discussions were bloating with over-bias), but I was surprised that the discussion on transformation, a very touchy topic, was reasoned. Yeah, Trunks appearing was a start of decline, and I do agree. I was honestly surprised you didn’t go off on SSJ3. Great Job.
I won't lie: I like the idea of "S Cells" and Goten and Trunks being able to attain the form due to Goku and Vegeta having already unlocked the form when they were born.
And Gohan struggling because he was already 6 or so by the time that Goku went super?
Pokémaniac Guquiz exactly, Goku hadn’t gone Super Saiyan when he had Gohan, although I think Tori should’ve just left out the S Cells part.
I think S Cells actually make sense in a genetic sense
TL;DR: S-Cells make sense because of Alleles and Adrenaline Control.
I discourage you from reading my incoherent mess of a comment.
If anyone here has watched Film Theory or Game Theory you should know about Alleles (if you don't, Alleles are basically what decide how you look. For example: If your Grandpa was Blonde and your Dad is a Brunette you yourself can still be blonde because your Dad carries Blonde Alleles but you're more likely to be a brunette because brown hair is dominant and Blonde hair is not)
If Goku and Vegeta both had completely normal saiyan features (Tail, Black hair, Black Eyes, Small Body) then those are able to decide how Goten and Trunks look, however they also have S-Cells which are Dominant (as proven by Trunks and Goten as children in the main timeline). With S-Cells being dominant they're more likely to be present in Goten and Trunks, which is why they can go Super Saiyan without traumatic experiences.
As an explanation as to how S-Cells work it's obvious but I'll do it anyways: S-Cells are most comparable to adrenaline imo, and anyone who's gone to school should know that adrenaline is what allows your body to "push past it's limits" so to speak. Assuming Saiyan S-Cells are almost identical to Adrenaline that means with enough adrenaline the S-Cells will be activated and provide the extra boost to form Super Sayian. Due to adrenaline rushes being initiated only during times of extreme stress (anything from maternal instincts to bungee jumping) are able to provide superhuman strength, and comparing S-Cells to adrenaline still we can figure out that once S-Cells are activated they stay activated and will initiate when the user requires it (which is able to scientifically explain Goku's famous "It comes to a need, not a desire" which would be the need to survive, the need to be more powerful and overcome the threat)
Now not many people know or can do this but it's possible to activate an adrenaline rush on command, however it's very complicated. I can only assume S-Cells are the same and can be activated on command through some training. However unlike Adrenaline, S-Cells are also dominant genes.
They were so close with Vegeta’s Yardrat training as it, in your words, showed a side-grade. They also originally had restrictions (and also specific uses) with the spirit bomb that it couldn’t be done while SSJ (until Broly 1 & Buu Saga took care of that).
They keep getting so close to having certain techniques applying in different situations but then revert back to crash boom wallop power vs power. I think modern shounen realised that and adaptation of existing powers is the key to keeping it fresh.
Heck even Satan’s effortless dodging of Kid Buu could have been a route to something, even though it was comic relief.
I think the problem is that everyone is sick of "power upgrades". I want to see more new abilities - the moro arc showed vegeta with new abilities and people were excited......only for goku to come in with another, predictable, unlocking a hidden power upgrade. People are sick of it. They've had 20 years of power increases to beat the bad guy.
Buu is my favourite character because when he fights, you don't know what new ability will be shown and that makes him exciting. Too bad they rarely use him though
Super Saiyan: A legendary being that has to have a pure heart, unleashed by anger and pain of loss...
The way they just starting throwing it out like confetti after the Cell games really hurt the really awesome transformations like Goku's, Gohan's and Future Trunks'. Vegeta too I suppose. But they had this deep meaning to the character and Goten and Trunks sort of ruined that...
Except Goten wasn't play fighting when he transformed the first time ChiChi was wailing on him and he responded in anger to fend her off and we never saw Trunks first transform.
@@darkscot1338 shoot, you right. Imma fix that.
@@darkscot1338 except that WASN'T Goten's first time transforming there just the first time Chichi saw it. Before that flashback Gohan asked how he was able to transform and Goten said he doesn't remember. Why would he say he doesn't remember his first time only to flashback to that "first time"?
For me personally, the moment super sayan declined was when Goten and kid Trunks achieved the legendary form by accident at far younger ages than even Gohan had and did absolute bubkis with the transformation. before that every single super sayan transformation had been earned.
I feel that Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 4 are the only meaningful Super Saiyan forms: One unlocked by achieving previously unseen levels of rage, the other by mastering that and the Oozaru form, combining them together in a new and meaningful way. The fact that these three Saiyan transformations all _look_ meaningfully different also helps.
Aside from those two and the Oozaru form itself, none of the Saiyan forms have any impact on me. It's all just copy/pasting the less interesting aspects of Super Saiyan 1 and either removing downsides or swapping a color and saying this justifies putting it on a different order of magnitude of brute force. Changes in levels of brute force _also_ stopped mattering about a quarter of the way into the Namek saga, and the fact that nobody even from other entire "universes" we've been introduced to since the Namek Saga has had sub-Frieza Form 4 power levels just retroactively sullies the escalation and tension in the best parts of the Dragon Ball series.
Most of the mystique of the Super Saiyan form itself was never really special to me the first time around; I got Super Sonic in the Sonic videogames a full decade before I saw my first Super Saiyan. When I was watching the anime they started doing reruns of the early episodes about halfway through the Frieza fight; next time I checked in on the show we were partway through the Android saga with Cell's introduction and Super Saiyan was already trivial and meaningless by then. Watching the series again without missing episodes only made it all the clearer how hollow it all was.
Yeah I gotta be hones the power creep is an issue if you think about it. Super Sayian was this mythical god like ability that Frieza, a being who ruled most the known galaxy with his power, feared. Then what a handful of years later it's a joke. Two androids from Earth, a place that previously had thought King Piccolo was the strongest being around, or had trouble with Raddits suddenly has a being that stomps Super Sayians around like toys.
From there it just gets worse and worse, power levels and threats just keep rising out of no where. Every time you think you've found a being that has been the "strongest thing in the galaxy" for eons, it's surpassed by another like say Buu and so on. So not only did the show stop giving out power numbers directly, but the rises made no sense. Why were various powers able to rule the galaxy unopposed for so long if stronger being are out there?
It's just natural progression. The show would be very limited if Goku was the only Super Saiyan and that was the absolute peak of power through the whole show.
I still think Trunks shouldn't have been a SSJ from the start. He could have gotten it later and that would have made his origin more of a mystery at first.
Same with Ultra Instinct. It's progression, it has to happen. Not everything is about selling figures.
It's not natural progression. Toriyama just did a horrible transition from a hard magic system to a soft magic system. Gone are the rules and consistency and hello the "just hit them harder" fights.
@Luis Martinez
Another example is Black Clover.
The problem is that once the Super Saiyan became very popular due to the story of the transformation and the subsequent fight between SSJ Goku and Frieza Toriyama, instead of being careful with it went complete overboard by having the entire series revolve around it and introducing way too many Super Saiyan transformations to the point of it becoming a parody.
You make a really good point about the decline of ssj starting from the moment Trunks was introduced, and I'm inclined to believe you when you say nostalgia affects my view of this scene, but I would like to mention I also have nostalgia when it comes to the Buu saga, I would even say is the saga I remembered the most fondly out of all of DBZ along with the fusion saga, and it's in that saga I have the biggest issue with the show. The fact that Goten and Trunks are able to transform at such a young age has bothered me for years and that was my first pick as to which moment cheapened ssj.
At least when Trunks was introduced, ssj was still a very novel thing to watch and we all wanted to see more of it, and there was a gravitas to his situation that lead him to come to the present, you are sucked in the suspense on what's going to happen next. Add to the fact that every single saiyan had to work their ass off and suffer greatly to eventually reached ssj, the form never felt cheap in the cell saga despite it becoming irrelevant with ssj2, which at the time it was unique to Gohan and Gohan was being foreshadowed from the beginning of Z that he was more powerful than Goku.
Wow this was an amazing watch. I really enjoyed the discussion.
I look at it like this Super Saiyan is the standard. If you can beat a Super Saiyan or rival one in power you are a decent fighter.
Outside of Botamo Goku and Vegeta were both pushed to use Super Saiyan in the God of destruction tournament.
If you can compete with forms above Super Saiyan then you are a pretty good fighter
If you can compete with the God Forms then you are obviously talented
I always used to it see as :
Ss1 was tapping into the power (imperfect Ss)
Ss2 was the transformation perfected (perfect Ss)
Ss3 was overclocking the transformation
I liked that way of seeing it because 1 and 2 mimic Cell’s transformation
So, there was only really one transformation, shown as three variants. which is why 1 and 2 are identical save for power output, why 2 eventually just replaces 1 eventually, and why 3 looks so mutated.
I have to say mastered ss1 is the perfected ssj transformation of ss1 grade 4 ss2 is grade 5
Why am I okay with future Trunks and willing to give him a pass? Because as Goku said when training Gohan to transform "the power responds to a need, not a desire". Goku had to push Gohan physically and mentally into a corner in the time chamber to get him to transform.
Trucks has that motivation and was out in a situation where it made sense to achieve the form. It wasn't cheaped by him having it.
Kid Trunks and Goten however did nothing to earn that power or be put in a position where it would be required and as such has no emotional impact or meaning behind it.
Vegeta said as much himself "when did the legendary transformation of the Sayian race become reduced to a child's game?"
That is when super Sayian transformation truly hit rock bottom.
This is surprisingly well thought out for you.
(Your analyses are well thought out in general, but the reference was just too good to pass up.)
I was legit gonna say "Because Toriama forgot"
adding onto the tingly back topic, when watching the dub, Cabba mentions when you "get used to it" you can focus your power into your back or something around that, so at the very least cabba had offscreen training and so did caulifla since she discovered ssj 2 and grade 3, theoredically grade 2 as well. Personally I use the headcanon that her ssj wasnt fully mastered yet so it took stamina from her still. So looking back at the dub the whole tingly back topic isnt as bad as i remembered.
The reason I didn't mind the whole "Tingly back" thing was because I thought about Saiyan evolution. They used to be covered in fur. A tingly back is basically how it would feel if a great ape suddenly raised its hackles in preperation to fight, similar to how we get goosebumps even now to either make ourselves look bigger or to regulate temperature, both actions having to do with raising body hair/fur.
Alternate title: Taking the “Super” out of Super Saiyan.
yeah as someone who liked dragonball but wasn't that into following/keeping up with the community, it felt to me that people really overreacted to how the U6 saiyans got theirs easily and how the transformation is no longer special... as if it it wasn't already rendered that from how trunks and goten got them as KIDS.
this is what makes me appreciate Garlic Jr. Saga so much more. I know people like to make so much fun of it, but everyone ignores the fact that this saga did make use of a majority of characters and made the characters have to rely on something other than transformations and power levels. Goku was kept as that one guy who had achieved this incredible thing, but no one else did, and when a villain came around and Goku wasn't there, it showed that the earth could still protect itself without market man around to save the day. Granted I love Goku to death, but you have to admit when Trunks transformed, it showed that this "legendary form" will be the next staple of measure for strength. Instead of "legendary power needed to fight an unstoppable foe", it became a step, "are you Super Saiyan, or Super Duper Saiyan level of foe?"
the funny thing is that ultra instinkt has been around since early dragon ball but super turned the concept of letting your body move on instinkt to react faster into another transformation which only makes it worse.
Cabba unlocking Super Saiyan turned the transformation from a routine thing back into an awesome moment, brief as it was. It was a moment of growth for the character, and that's what arguably made it the best transformation since Gohan's push into Super Saiyan 2.
Sure, he got it pretty quickly, but I think we have Vegeta's experience and teaching methods more to thank for that --- when the prince was trying to unlock it for himself he had to stumble around in the dark for a while and figure everything out on his own, meanwhile here he knew exactly what buttons to press to send Cabba over the edge and into the form, and had no qualms about hitting them (even if it momentarily made everyone worry he was relapsing back to the personality of his Frieza Force days).
Super Saiyan was a Deus Ex Machina that turned into a literary trope that turned into a Deus Ex Machina again.
Honestly I think what ruined Super Saiyan was introducing 17 & 18 who by no explanation whatsoever far outstripped everyone in power. If Goku had not been suffering from the heart virus 19 and subsequently 18 would not have been an issue. Vegeta proved that in a single episode, and the ones that followed had Gero running scared from the rest of the Z fighters. They had some interesting gimmicks that made them dangerous to the unprepared (and Yamcha regardless of preparedness) but were otherwise outclassed.
These twins being *magnitudes* stronger than the rest of the team _despite Dr. Gero not having any data on the newest capabilities of Goku and the rest_ simply for no other reason than because Toriyama needed a stronger antagonist is where Super Saiyan really took a nosedive. It is what set the standard for Shonen series' constant drive for level grinding. Always trying to get better, to get stronger, to beat the next obstacle by raw power and raw power alone, regardless of what made any kind of sense.
What? But masako that's just some legend from 1000 years ago
When did it become irrelevant when Android 17&18 came. Honestly there should have been a different way where Vegeta could have been defeated. If I have to be honest Perfect Cell is the first character to properly defeat a Super Saiyan because by that time we are used to it.
Agreed.
He should've been taken out with his energy being stolen (IE all androids have that trait)
Freeze was also defeated with it, twice, and the second time included his dad. Although yeah, 17 and 18 shouldn’t have been able to completely rag doll Super Saiyan.
@@Slender_Man_186 Yeah i feel like they should have tag teamed him and slowly worn him down with energy absorption that way it would still show ssj as powerful as vegeta would start off winning but lose in a battle of endurance due to 17 and 18s infinite energy
When Super Saiyan goes from the transformation of legend to the colors of the rainbow, it declines in value
For me honestly Super Saiyan Grades 2/3 and Super Saiyan 3 mark the bottom of the barrel. Super Saiyan 3 especially never achieved ANYTHING. No build up, no nothing. It was just suddenly there and nothing came from it. And it is arguably the most ugly of the bunch. With long hair and missing eyebrows. Super Saiyan God is a cool concept with a fiery aura. Blue fire burns hotter (at least as it is portrayed in fiction), so Super Saiyan Blue was an obvious choice. And Ultra Instinct is something different altogether. So I guess in a way Super actually managed to somewhat improve on the idea.
the shock factor and specialty of it weighed ages ago, only thing that got near that height was ultra instinct bc it was new and not a rehash
They could have given specific abilities to each form to make them all necessary in their own right.
For example, SSG had regeneration properties. They could have developed this form to grant Goku healing and stamina restoration abilities. Moreover, the form seemed to remove some years from Goku, so it could make the user return to his prime.
SSB could have been a versatile form with which you could combine techniques such as the Kaioken.
Super Saiyan Rosé could have been a form that turns damage into power.
Super Saiyan Berserk/Legendary could be a form which powers increase over time.
Super Saiyan... maybe its property could be exactly that: to evolve. An ever-improving form that adapts in cases of great emotional distress ( anger ).
Did you mean
A curse?
Ohhhhhhhhh
Nappa: "I get it!"
Good one
We don't talk about that 'round these parts >:(
It's also harder for some transformations when you have build-ons, like Super Saiyan 3. SSJ3 has been shown only a few times and was at one point a "last resort" kind of transformation. But after you get older powers like Super Saiyan 1 boosted up, you show that for nostalgia, then switch to later boosts like Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 get skipped over entirely. Not new enough to be current, not old or iconic enough to be nostalgic, other things that once were the cream of the crop are not able to cut it, nor are people reflecting back on it. And when it does show up, it's mostly just a tool to be beaten (I.E., SSJ3 getting flicked by Beerus or SSJ2 Trunks able to spar with SSJ3 Goku). It's a hard balancing act to keep things special when you have so many of them.
It's also funny how SSJ1 is so out-classed by humanly-built robots. If you think about it, we on earth had the power to overtake Frieza, who was supposed to be the strongest being aside Majin Buu and Beerus. I never really understood that part. How do robots made of metal known to human kind outclass Frieza, when fighting people with robotic parts (like Mercenary Tao) is child's play for Super Saiyans like Gohan? Toriyama is known for choosing here-and-now narrative over the over-aching lore. It's good at the time, but as a discussion about hindsight, it makes little sense and is hard to keep track of.
When it became a pure unadulterated ego booster
Damn i see you everywhere
Yes praise lord Yamcha
Vegeta: "I HEARD HEARD, BETA MALE!"
you mean pure unadulterated badass?
The transformation I was most excited about that has also been power-crept into irrelevance; Super Saiyan God.
The idea that there was this form that required all of the Saiyan's cooperating to create makes it a last-ditch form, certainly not the every-day form that all other Super Saiyan forms are. I also loved that, rather than bulking up, Goku was thinner, leaner and (Red hair side) looked like normal Goku. In Battle of Gods, Goku seemed calmer, more focused than regular Super Saiyan and so it looked and worked in a unique way to all others.
...Then Super Saiyan Blue came along and kicked that to the kerb by looking and working exactly the same as all other Super Saiyan forms, just even more powerful making the God form pointless.
Super Sandwich is a very underrated transformation
While you're right about the BEGINNING, I think the big hit that took it down a huge peg was the tweens having it. Like it was simple. The death knell was how trivial the Tourney of Power made going through the different levels in minutes by the other saiyans that took our heroes years to do. Though I will say the problem with super saiyan is that, after it was introduced, no non-saiyans could keep up and maintain a real presence. Piccolo got A fight after a huge buff to be relevant physically, but everything else was saiyans or a few bits of drama with Tien and Krillin. The Android Saga was also when the "let's wait for Goku" thing was getting annoying for me. I think that's why Gohan ended the fighting with Cell because even Toriyama could see that pattern forming. Then it went right back to it in the next saga.
Nice discussion on the state of Super Saiyan Masako. For Super Saiyan began to decline and lose its value is in the Buu Arc where Goten and Trunks attained it rather easily and the usage of Super Saiyan 3 where Goku used it as a flashy transformation to quickly end the opponent it revealed that Super Saiyan 3 was unstable for the living body.
Note that this is *My opinion* if you disagree that's fine I honestly like hearing it from another perspective, with that said this might be a bit long so I'll just cover the important part's in my opinion.
I'd say it's about quality and quantity. At the beginning when Goku unlocked the form it was amazing and world shattering that it changed people's perception on the show dragging in millions of viewers and fans.
From there they introduced more and more transformations and users of the form. Including the old Bardock movie and dragon ball legends there are about 12 super saiyans. Along with that more transformations being introduced.
The quality is reduced due to how many times they use the forms. For instance against almost every foe since starting the android saga they kept using the form for almost everything. Even in super Goku uses *Blue* for almost everything. It reduces the quality as it's used so often that at this point it's just "Oh yeah super saiyan"
Along with that with their being so many it just doesn't feel unique or earned anymore. Along with that there are counting GT as well. There are about six forms, if you count rose, rage form and evolution blue then nine (Not counting ultra instinct and the graded forms of ssj as it's a *Technique* not a *Transformation*)
After all now it's just wearing color contacts and dyeing your hair as the multipliers no longer matter as it's never implemented.
It's lost it's unique charm it was around the buu saga that it didn't feel special anymore especially with the introduction of more forms. At this point it's natural and makes me question why the other saiyans in universe 7 never had the form.
To me the decline of the Super Sayian started in the Buu saga where it becames just some boost of energy and power. Personally, I think it would be cool if the why of the Super Sayian where more explored.
Like: in the final fight versus Freezer, Goku start tapping into the power of the Super Sayian. But, when you discover Trunks and Vegeta can do it too, you learn that it is in fact a power that can appear in very strong Sayian. Then in the Cell saga, they experiment with that power, creating multiple form with various power and effectivity. And in the end, Gohan succeed in mastering the power of the Super Sayian, making him some sort of “Perfect Super Sayian” (not the canonical one).
And after that, instead of simply punching things really hard, and/or throwing balls/beam of energy really fast, they would try to use that power to make various techniques. And when the “Perfect Super Sayian” will be outmatched, they would try to use other power: Mystic power with the Kaio, divine power with Beerus, and cosmic(?) energy for the Ultra-Instinct.
However, with these modifications it wouldn’t be this show of total Epicness, and I still love Dbz despite it flaws!
I like to think Caulifia got Super Saiyan through excitement and thrill as well. There's no rule saying that Super Saiyan can't be obtained through only negative emotions. It's just like how Sarada got her Sharingan through the excitement of seeing Sasuke for the first time.
I mean... that just sounds like Sarada got her sharingan for an equally poor reason as Caulifla to me.
Thinking about them after reading this comment, yeah, Super Saiyan and Sharingan are unlocked in a similar way. Haven't thought about that before.
Are you comparing naruto with dragon ball when they don't have more than 5 things in common
Fusion isn't really a Dragon Ball thing in Japan. The source of it is Devilman, though franchises like SMT cranked it up to 11 and others made use of it in their own way.
I hope in a future arc of Super they focus on transformations for earthlings and namekians so Krillin, Yamcha, Tien and Piccolo so they could catch up to Goku and Vegeta. Their transformations can be based on their fighting styles and individual characteristics.
The way I looked at Trunks' obliteration of Freeza and Cold translated as: This new saga will include villains and conflicts make Freeza look tame. Perhaps, it's because it wasn't long after watching the Freeza fight that I purchased the cassette tape of Freeza vs Trunks, but Super Saiyan never fully lost its luster for me.
I wonder how fans of Dragon Ball interpreted the introduction and exposition of Goku's new Saiyan origin. Suddenly, this talented, albeit strange Earthling is now an alien, and it was dropped on the audience strikingly quickly. Did that cause some audience to lose their fondness of Goku after all they had known about him had been upheaved?
I think it would've been an interesting concept to have a Saiyan transformation that used magic in some shape or form, instead of the usual ki.
I mean we have seen magic in places throughout the Dragon Ball series, and if you can channel God Ki into the SSJ form to create SSJB, why not for once have a Saiyan transformation be more than brute force power up?
Piccolo can very easily manifest things like clothes, probably other things too, through what can be assumed to be an application of magic, something not unheard of among Namekians.
Maybe ask Super Kami Dende to teach someone in the main cast?
Masako in the previous videos: Puts a spoiler warning for the DBS Super Broly movie
Masako now: just casually spoils the Moro arc.
You know, MasakoX, I had a thought: What if the Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama increased Goku's S-cells while he was gathering energy and Krillin's death was the trigger to the transformation. It would add another element of all these things coming together to make the transformation possible.
Imagine they make ultra instinct 2 with goku having his white hair, but spiked up like a super saiyan
super saiyan UI its a better name, and the idea isn't that bad but Goku should Only use it with omen because hes using ssj at the same time making it impossible to use UI to its maximum, it hould make ssj more important since only the first ssj can be used with UI and UI hould also Stay important.
I’m probably one of the few people who don’t mind the tingly back feeling
I don't mind it personally. It's just how it is in U6.
MasakoX and I’m ok with that
SS4 was by far the Best Transformation in DBZ History IMHO.
The ideal behind it is perfect to the Sayians ancestry.
Maybe they should make it Canon again.
I think super vegeta and super sayan 3 were cool ideas, just like kaiokens because they felt like techniques with their own strong points and weak points, also the genkidama to some extent.
And also creating those sort of technique's that tent just "a powerful beam" but more like what vegeta got in the moro arc could make some old characters relevant because maybe someone like tien becomes great at blocking opponents with his 4 arms or maybe piccolo with his stretchy arms becomes really good at catching opponents that move fast like dispo. Maybe someone like yamcha is a boxer style of character, similar to rocky, not quite as strong in raw power (maybe with kaioken it's at least decent) but can outlast opponents by dodging and he has developed a wolf fang fist style that aims to exploit opponents that are tired.
But as you said they need to sell those toys, and all of them are just goku or maybe vegeta with different dyed air
I think Toriyama mentioned that "kindness" is a key trait in getting the SSJ transformation. Thus, it was only possible for Vegeta to access it after he'd gotten together with Bulma. :P
Also, from what we've seen, pure-blood Saiyans don't usually form very strong emotional bonds quite in the same way as humans do - Just look at how much Goku ignores his wife, while being quite kind and certainly caring about his family.... he's just not that close, y'know.
That's probably why the half-bloods have such an easy time of it.
One could even hypothesize that the reason Saiyans don't have such close bonds is because they're so strong - they do not need other individuals to survive as much, unlike weak and squishy humans.
You get a Super Saiyan, and You get a Super Saiyan, Everyone gets a Super Saiyan!!!
To me it was when Kid Trunks & Goten could go Super Saiyan. I can forgive the Android/Cell Saga with the androids easily overcoming the form at the beginning BUT it took the Saiyans finally mastering SSJ1 (Fourth Grade) to actually overcome them & even move on to SSJ2. Plus, all the Saiyans had an emotional reason as to why they went SSJ.
as much as i love vegeta ( sometimes more than goku ) i gotta say i'm still not over Bulma and goku not being a thing. I blame Chi Chi
Thought of a what if that could have easily happened. What if Vegeta went super saiyan rage (like future Trunks did against Goku Black) when Beerus hit Bulma. Given that it is powerful enough to hold it's own against super saiyan rosé, it must be more powerful than super saiyan god and impress beerus.
everyone gets it until GT decided there were enough super saiyans
"IT IS WHAT IT IS, as it were." SCATHING, MASAKO!!! Golden writing. A+++
Also, for me, Super Saiyan was useless the moment two five year olds accomplished it. Universe 6 literally needed to catch up to something, just to compete, and did nothing wrong.
I think it goes back to the idea of the Zone of proximal development. In other words its easier to learn from a teacher than figure it out yourself. It all seemed natural to me. The original Super Saiyan couldn't control it and therefore couldn't teach it to others. We don't know which form was the original super saiyan's form.
As much as I loved SSJ in the first Freiza fight, the decline of SSJ and thereafter couldn't come soon enough.
Dragonball needs diversity in it's combat. The biggest reason abilities and transformations become obsolete is there are not enough unique tradeoffs to new ones to make old ones stay relevant. Nor do the antagonist make it necessary to keep old ones relevant.
The ToP was a breath of fresh air in this regard to a degree. It was nice to see old characters become more relevant. I think the notion that SSJ level powers and beyond are an unattainable achievement by anyone else is absurd. I like the idea of the tools you have and the skill at which you use them being a bigger play on combat ability than solely raw power.
Still, Vegeta4life.
Remember in the ToP arc when Goku switched between Blue and God forms to take advantage of their differences? It’d be great to see something like that again - different forms could be most useful in different situations. Wouldn’t it be cool if Goku was getting trounced in UI, but discovered a hitherto-unknown quirk in the original Super Saiyan form that made it the best form for the task at hand? Or perhaps if that’s too much of a stretch we could see UI and Super Saiyan combined...I’m just spitballing here but I just think it would be cool if instead of every form being just ‘the same, but better’ each form had its pros and cons, like a Swiss Army knife of transformations. It might require some form of retcon to work but it would lend a bit more strategy to fights.
That's something that the Goku Black Arc Manga honestly did better than the anime. It made old forms more relevant. Like Vegeta turning to SSG to use that switch technique with Blue or Future Trunks using an advanced form of SSJ2.
A question for you Masako in your what if nappa turned good story does nappa still have his tail?????
There was a chance to make SS special to Goku and Vegeta by allowing Gohan his ultimate form or mystic. Whichever it is. That power exclusive ot Gohan or potentially the hybrids would have put them in their own place while the pure blooded Saiyans get thing like Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan blue. And that exclusivity having its own place was made apparent with Gohan going toe to toe with SSB Goku. It could be something he could teach to Trunks and Goten or even Pan. And when the fights go on the hybrids can use this ultimate form and when that isn't enough it gives Goku and Vegeta more shine to their own SS power. Making it special.
I honestly like the tingling back thing