if the no class meter/mechanics wasnt in the criteria "Cannot fire unless zoomed" would be a close second because you would only be able to play sniper edit: actually this would be the best upside because you would only be playing me, the best class
That was eligible, and I really did think about it. I decided not to add it because I thought it would cause confusion within the comments as to whether it should be eligible.
@@yang_notI feel as if the entire statistic being tied to said meter would make for an okay exception. It’s basically “on hit by pyro: unable to use this weapon for 10 seconds.”
The -2 Health regenerated stat does in fact, deplete your health when put on a non-medic class. The weapon itself has that stat and is only counteracted by the innate health regen, not modifying their existing stat. The “Damage Penalty” stat would not affect all sources of damage in the game. Certain things like sentries, Shield bashes, and reflected critical attacks, would still deal damage.
@@vikavolt11 The pootis pow counts as bullet damage, too. I know because I managed to pootis pow a pocketed heavy but his vaccinator medic activated the bullet resistance and barely did any damage.
@@wizardii4961 Pretty sure -100% damage would apply to the bison and shields lol(and the flying guillatine immediate hit), but yeah it would literally be just DOTs
5:06 the Razorback having no overheal whatsoever is to stop the weapon from essentially countering 2 classes since it’s already designed to limit Spy’s options and if the Sniper is overhealed it also limits the options for opposing Snipers simultaneously. So with that stat added you’re essentially forced to decide “Would I prefer to limit Spy or give my allied Medics the opportunity to help me counter Sniper.
If you ever come back to this series, i have a funny idea, “worst positive stat on every weapon” and the opposite, “best negative stat on every weapon”, basically stuff like the Beggar’s Overloading, which lets you rocket jump off thin air, but is listed as a downside, etc.
@@Lonqudor Um actually according to my calculations the grappling hook from Mannpower does 2 damage instead of 1 when you hit someone in the head, meaning every class can headshot 🤓🤓🤓
Technically, the Boston basher doesn't deal damage if you hit the ground or a friendly player, so if you apply that to any other weapon it wouldn't damage you if your shots hit the ground a wall or a friendly gamer
In my defence, I utterly forgot about that. I’d still put it in second place though due to the overall nature of bullets disappearing after set distances, but thank you for reminding me!
Missing leading to taking your own hit. So you have to not only deal with your health draining, but you have to deal with any debuffs the weapon also came with. End up marking yourself to take more damage or dealing with the aim punch of the damaging debuffs. Yeah, I can see how that would be #2.
Unfourtunally there is problem with your explanation for widomaker stat. In reality due to well known spaghetti code every class has metal meter but it is capped at 100 for every class except engineer. So this stat would be bad in a vacum - you would be able to fire only 3 shots on any weapon after which you would need to visit ressuply cabin or pickup ammo box (probably not from dead player as metal in their ammo box depends on their metal ammount - in normal game they have no way of lowering it). Shounic or Shaunic (i dont remember excact channel name) has full video detaling this mechanic and he even put it to use by enabling pda for all classes - everyone could build everything except of sentries (Its cost is 125 but metal is capped at 100).
6:25 The reason (I believe) why the panic attack has that stat is because when a person is in a panicked state, they are less likely to be in control of the situation and tend to aim worse. Like me whenever I am playing gun spy and try to shoot a pyro and somehow miss all my shots. I'd still give the damage vulnerability to the warrior spirit due to it not having the speed boost that the escape plan does.
Exactly. The panic attack is meant to be a last resort kind of weapon, not your primary weapon (which is why Heavy, Soldier and Pyro have it as a secondary). It's meant to cause a great burtst of damage to quickly kill an enemy that's threatening you, but that's it.
@@M4x_P0w3r this makes a lot of sense, and there would be serious debate as to whether it would be better than stock if it didn’t have the downside. But I still feel they could’ve gone with something else, like No Random Crits
Do correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the less accuracy stat a leftover from the previous panic attack iteration where it is the counter to the positive where the lesser health you have the quicker the gun shoots?
@@FletcherCat Yeah, but something like say, the Family Business, is definitely orientated to be more aimed towards longer skirmishes, considering the larger clip and faster firing speed. And the Reserve Shooter is more of a combo/counter weapon to blast jumping enemies.
2:04 I’d argue that the 30% vulnerability is worse because if an enemy weapons is boosted by buff banner, jarate, or whatever else can minicrit or mark for death, it would stack with the 30% vulnerability. So if you’re marked for death and someone throws jarate at you, the 2 won’t stack, but if you have 30% vulnerability and someone throw’s jarate the 2 will stack and make you extremely vulnerable
The reason why the -100% overheal on the Razorback exists is because of Highlander. Basically you used to be able to pocket the sniper and give him 183 hp which meant he couldn’t be killed by an enemy sniper’s quickscope, and you couldn’t backstab him which meant that he was basically indestructible short of a coordinated bomb, which you already have to do to kill the medic so it just ruined the mode entirely because you had to hard focus two people instead of one. For the record I never use the Razorback anymore because I consider it a straight downgrade unless there are 3 spies on the other team, which if they have they’re losing anyways. I’d rather be able to use overheal to my advantage to win sniper duels.
It's not just the name. The deployment speed bonus and the added bullets per shot all contribute to the theory that you're supposed to switch to it out of desperation and go for one or two meatshots on an enemy that got too close while you're not ready with your primary weapon (or while your sentry is down/too far away, if you're engineer). If it takes you any more than that then you start suffering from the spread penalty but only if the enemy is far away enough for it to make any difference. It's kind of just a more complicated alternative to lowering the clip size, which they probably did because the reserve shooter already had that so it'd be too obvious that it was a bit of an uninspired idea.
12:38 it might not work that way if it were ever properly made an all-class but when you roll the Blutsauger on randomizer servers (at least back when i played those a lot, it may have changed) it actually did drain 2 health per second on every non-Medic class.
However that's not a weapon stat, it's a set 'bonus' that requires you to wear the MK-50 helmet and equip the weapon at the same time. Same as the scout needing to be wearing the full cosmetic set to get that melee damage bonus.
@@Lonqudor hmmm best downside gotta be the rescue rangers "4-to-1 health-to-metal ratio when repairing buildings", seeing as thats actually an upside over repairing with a wrench which is 3-1(ik its ineligible) worst upside is harder. "On Equip: Visit Pyroland" is pretty bad "Knockback on the target and shooter" from the force-a-nature is absolutely unplayable on some weapons, but amazing on others. also, best and worst white text.
@@jafsrob There are many other good downsides as well. Self-damaging downsides can be used to build uber, and many of them work as mobility tools as well. While Boston Basher's downside was in this video for a good reason, it could be counted as one of the best downsides as well.
Considered it. But at the end of the day only a few classes care about Sentry damage. -20% DMG to buildings wouldn't change Scout, Sniper, Spy, Engineer and Pyro very much
@@Lonqudor but the thing is that sentries would be basically undectructable. A pipe would do 20 damage on direct hit, 6/7 if was wrangled. So the effective health of lvl 3 would be 216 * 5 * 3(if wrangled) Which is 3k+ hp It would take more than 30 direct pipes to destroy a lvl 3 sentry
That was eligible, and I really did think about it. I decided not to add it because I thought it would cause confusion within the comments as to whether it should be eligible.
From what I can’t tell with the successive shot become less accurate stat on the panic attack is because it’s meant to be switched to and from quickly for extra damage so it punishes you when you don’t use it like that
The idea of a hard-scoping Sniper immediately dying of cardiac arrest due to missing their shot is unbelievably amusing. Otherwise, I feel like one of the most frustrating downsides you could put on a weapon is the Spy-cicle's "Melts in fire, regenerates in 15 seconds and by picking up ammo". Imagine trying to do anything when a scorch shot is in play...
i like the mock rock approach! side note, on the metal thing being ineligible - this isn't a specific edge case that only the engineer has access to. shounic did a video about it, all classes have 100 metal (hence dropping 100 upon death) and if they may somehow use it, they can replenish it like usual. it's already programmed! which is neat
Funny you mention the blutsauger's -2 health regeneration. Back when i was a wee TF2 rookie, for so long i couldn't understand why folks would want to use the Blutsauger (ignoring the crossbow, i didn't know the potential back then) because i didnt know Medic had self-regen health, and this meant a reduction in THAT, not how i thought it worked, where you were fighting a battle to stay alive by shooting while you regularly lost health.
One thing I would like to point out about the Boston Basher's self hit stat is that it doesn't actually deal the full Boston Basher damage to scout, rather dealing 18 damage + full bleed. But since mechanics are considered in a vacuum that doesn't really matter in this discussion lol
I hate the -100% overheal downside so much. Whenever im playing medic i see a sniper and im like „oh! I can overheal this person, they get headshot or something but barely survive thanks to me! And then that person will be very thankful!“ But then i heal them, and nothing happens. They dont notice anything and just keep shooting. Its so sad..
Something that should be mentioned is that every class has a metal pool of 100 if their name doesn't start with an Engine and end with an ER. So every non engie class can take advantage of the metal consuming weapons, it's just they have half the reserve to work with and can never know exactly how much metal they have at a given time. Also, the "-2 health regeneration" stat should be read as "regenerate -2 health every second". You do actually lose health holding out the blutsauger. I should know since getting the blutsauger in Randomizer means you start taking damage and can do nothing about it.
Overheal arguably is the most important on sniper, most other classes just get the overheal as a little bonus to shave off some hard to anticipate damage, but sniper has a very important reason to get overheal, with overheal, a sniper can survive a quick scope and basically auto-wins sniper v sniper match-ups
The boston basher's downside isn't actually hitting yourself it deals 18 damage to himself despite his melee dealing 35 damage base, so you'd realistically be looking at it being at around half the damage of misses, rather then anywhere close to what you were using
@@MeesterTweester the bleed damage comes from the bleed damage the weapon inflicts, the weapon deals 35 base to enemies, now this does mean that similar debuffs, buffs and DOT would be tracked, like fire, Jarate, madmilk, bleed and possibly even explosive knockback
@@Lonqudor a boston basher swing will do a full damage of 75 on a hit after bleed, but it will deal only 58 if you miss, again, only after the bleed does it's job, so the direct translation of damage can either be seen as 18 damage per miss, or around 50% of the damage the weapon would deal, but despite saying the downside is hitting yourself, scout takes less total damage then he would inflict, also as far as I'm aware the damage he takes doesn't change on minicrits or crits, so there is room to argue it's only base damage that can be reflected, which means that things like crits would not let people oneshot themselves, unfortunately
I was literally just thinking about the rocket jumpers cannot cap stat as number 1 because it would literally make the game unwinnable, looks like I just forgot about the stat that’s right next to it
Some notes: - Modded servers demonstrate that increasing the Bludsaughers's downside actually does cause you to lose life constantly, so that's just how it'd work on other classes. Still, the GRU downside is signifiantly worse. - I'd like to mention the Cow Mangler's decreased damage vs Sentries stat since if it were on more weapons/every weapon it'd suck. A lot. - the BFB's speed reduction would be pretty abysmal on other classes, especially without the speed boost mechanic to compensate. - "This weapon melts when exposed to fire" is technically an upside but imagine that on a class other than spy. - The Equalizer/escape plan's -90% healing would make Medic useless if it were widespread. The Back Scratcher falls under this umbrella too, but less so. - Half-Zatoichi's -50 HP when you switch off this weapon would be particularly painful for... Basically all the light classes tbh. Power classes can kinda work around it since they're better at killing, but imagine having to lose 50 HP for a flare combo.
Blutsagers downside is irrelevant as we are judging these stats "In a Vacuum". "-2 health regen", In a Vacuum means "-2 health regen". Not health drain. 20% Damage to buildings was considered, but this truly only affects the Power classes. This wouldn't make a difference on the Support or Pick classes. BFB is classed as a meter, so ineligible. I'm unsure whether the Spy-cicle counts as a meter weapon. Don't worry, I did think about it, but left it off the list out of avoiding confusion. For the lesser healing from Medics, I considered the Back Scratchers version as unlike with the Escape Plan, you cant swap off it. It eventually got replaced with the Widowmaker. Also thought about the Zatoichi, but ultimately decided it just wasn't as bad as all of my choices. It could've potentially replaced the GRU.
@@Lonqudor I think the issue is that the phrase 'in a vacuum' is too vague as most people are reading it just to mean you're not using any other stats at the same time. It doesn't really imply 'the stat only works the way I interpreted it'. Perhaps something like 'in plain English' might make more sense? It needs to clarify that you're using words like 'ammo' or 'regen' in their general meaning that a gamer coming from another shooter would immediately assume, and ignoring the technical definitions in TF2's code.
@@Lonqudor"In a vaccuum." I'm not sure you understand what those words mean. But you defined them yourself as independent of the weapon it's on, the class it's on, and potentially how it would work with other class's weapons. Changing how the mechanics of a downside work to fit how you think the text should translate wasnt included in those things.
5:04 The -100% overheal penalty is so you can't tank a headshot from an enemy Sniper while having the Razorback equipped. This is so that if you do put it on to avoid being backstabbed, you can't have a Medic also negate your other counter as a Sniper. You're trading a potential advantage in Sniper 1v1s for an advantage in dealing with Spies. I think that, while the Razorback as a concept is inherently flawed, this is a good downside for it that makes its design more fair and cohesive for what it is.
I like the idea of how -100% overheal could really affect Medic's overall gameplan (Literally transforming him into a sorta Mercy), but this would also mean Medic always builds Über at max rate, like how the Quick-Fix used to when it was bugged since it didn't overheal past the slow down percent and always gave enough to be underneath. In other words: If the Overheal build rate isn't also patched out so Medics build at slower rate on fully healed targets, this could be an indirect buff to balance the lost Overheal.
I feel like the cow manglers 80% damage penalty to buildings is pretty bad, it only works on that weapon because it has an alternative that allows him to disable them for a few seconds. If that was on say a grenade launcher or a minigun, it would make dealing with engineers literally impossible as you'd be doing basically nothing.
I think the worst and the "worst" are both stats attached to weapons belonging to a single class, the spy and his YER and Kunai The YER has that GOD AWFUL cloak drain penalty that absolutely fucking gimps your ability as spy to do a core tenant of your class, your cloak barely exists and it forces you to use the l'tranger and maybe the C&D to get back to slightly better cloak drain, this also being on a knife most people see and spies worst knife (I love it tho its super satisfying for a hammy ass actor kind like me) The other worst is the kunai's health penalty which is worst not because its bad and affects you as the spy in a detrimental way, more so the worst in that it barely exists as a downside and can be mitigated before you can even say "oh look a f2p backside", yeah you can be one shot by a ton of things now but first you could be one shot by alot of them anyway, second your not really suppose to be face tanking shit as a spy and third again, you can just ignore the downside the moment you get a stab because you become immortal.
I think the marked for death penalty is worse than reduced health, at least on any weapon you're incentivized to use often. Medic? It's on medigun/crossbow, L. Sniper rifle? Screwed. Rocket launcher? Awful. Shotgun? You'd never ever switch to it. No damage falloff is so so much worse than reduced max health, it'll take some 30 damage tickle of a rocket and turn it into a 120 damage ouchie. Of course, reduced max health is always bad, on any weapon, and works on ones you can't hold or never have reason to.
i think for pellets like shotguns, the hit yourself only applies IF you missed all the pellets. You technically did not miss if you hit only one bullet hence does not apply to On Miss
With the pellets and shotguns disappearing after a set distance, this downside would still be very applicable in large open maps. But you are right, this is something I should’ve mentioned in the video
The Widowmaker's -30 metal mechanic wouldn't be as bad as you describe as every class technically has a metal reserve hidden (Pretty sure every class except Engi has 100 metal). This means that the -30 metal mechanic would give every class 3 shots, due to consuming that metal reserve, and not their ammo reserve.
@@Lonqudor lol i know but like lets just be honest if there was no criteria THIS WULD BE NUMBER ONE admit it (also 66% slower owerheall is also insanely bad)
i wonder if the ammo penalties (from the persian persuader and widowmaker) would give the pomson and righteous bison actual use cases lol also the widowmaker's -30 ammo per shot would make the cow mangler and the rocket jumper the only usable rocket launchers
Amused holiday punch didn't get a mention, crits doing no damage in the vacuum would be so garbage. Random crits would become random fumbles, kritzkrieg would be a hindrance, sniper would be useless and the crit storage and on demand weapons like amby/frontier
Very first stat of the video at 1:50 is wrong. The warrior’s spirit and escape plan only give vulnerability when holding them out. The candy cane makes you vulnerable to explosives ALWAYS. way worse than being marked for death while holding your melee.
I am aware, but I chose the Escape Plan due to the lack of damage falloff from the crits. I think taking Mini crit damage at any range is worse than taking extra explosive damage all the time
The Boston Basher one might not be too bad, actually, since TF2 bullets have infinite range, and hitting the environment with the Boston Basher doesn't count as a miss. If hitting the environment with a bullet weapon DID count as a miss, though, it would be pretty terrible.
all classes do have a metal pool, just since they don't build buildings it acts like a secondary ammo thing that you cant use unless you are somehow using the Widowmaker or Short Circuit
Surprised the Back Scratcher wasn't a contender for this video. Healing less from Medics, Dispensers, and Payload carts is huge, the only thing that prevents it from being detrimental is the fact you get more health from kits. Remove that buff and you miss out on 3/4th of all healing sources without a way to offset it.
Finally this vid came out! Guess nobody with right mind gonna argue about lack of ability to deal damage being worse than self damage, or -55 health really.
the boston basher is literally viable solely because of its "downside" actually being one of the strongest upsides in the game, allowing you to build uber with medic and opening up movement opportunities by launching you upwards when you hit yourself, allowing you to jump like 20 feet with just one hit.
@@Psyche_TH plenty of melee weapons would benefit from it. for example, take demo's most often run melee in competitive play, the half zatoichi. it allows you to hurt yourself. an engi weapon with that stat would be good for the same purpose, same with pyro, heavy, and it is good already on scout and demo. I agree on weapons that aren't melee it could be problematic, but it also could be fine given that it would have to be paired with an amazing upside to have been considered balanced by any dev team.
I would argue that the Persian Persuader's downside wouldn't apply to the Widowmaker(And Short Circuit ig). But getting locked into exclusively using the most punishing Engineer primary sounds.......fun Edit:Wouldn't the Boston Basher downside technically make the Widowmaker a 'Blood for bullets' ordeal?
The funny part about Blutsauger is that it actively is a perma bleed just for being in your loadout, so you are required to use the healing equivalent to nullify its effects unless you are bold. -2 health regen in TF2 is actively losing 2 health per second, so its interesting you mention the "loss" part not being accounted for despite the fact it does exactly that.
If every weapon had the -30 metal per shot every class would have 3 shots because every class has a base 100 metal which is why sometimes on engi you will see +100 metal when you spawn in
The escape plan downside as well as the warrior's spirit downside aren't as bad as the candy cane. The candy cane's downside is permanent on the wearer, while the other two are only while deployed. Additionally, the candy cane downside absolutely destroys every light class, just like how it does on scout.
I was kind of surprised about the top three. Honestly I had thought about the -90% healing from all sources (Escape plan stat) being at least #3, but I can see why your choices are worse. I mean, literally unable to kill anything is messed up in a special kind of way.
I considered putting the Back Scratcher’s version of the lesser medical healing on here for the reason that you cannot swap away from it like you can with the Escape Plan. Eventually I cut it and replaced it with the Widowmakers downside after I realised how broken that was
I don't know how The Blutsaugers downside isn't on this list. Taking -2hp per second means that as a light class you only have over 1 minute of living before you die assuming you don't heal in any way. Another thing, The Candy Canes 25% damage vulnerability applies to you even if you don't have your weapon out, while all the other weapons you listed only affect you if you are actively holding the weapon.
This video could push me past 10K if you all subbed. Just saying🤨
done deal
What if instead of Lon’qudor you were Freak’qudor, and instead of posting the worst tf2 weapons you post the worst ass and toes sucked
I am subbed :)
you should try Attribute Randomizer server
I subbed for that reason
if the no class meter/mechanics wasnt in the criteria "Cannot fire unless zoomed" would be a close second because you would only be able to play sniper
edit: actually this would be the best upside because you would only be playing me, the best class
Oh that's a really good point
Solution: reduce fov when firing anything
@@noahthecrazy1632 You wouldn't be considered zoomed by the game.
a fate worse than death
I was just about to comment this. No wonder a sniper pfp thought of it first.
the worst one might be the friends we didn't make along the way
for valve, it's the money they didn't make along the way.
Or the enemies we made along the way😔
Yes
Jolly Cooperation is essential in these dark lands.
Man that is deep
ah yes, the Gloves of Gloving Urgently
its a call back to the same mistake he made
you gotta glove the dedication to the bit
@@godusopp1797 T'was no mistake. I am committed.
@@Lonqudor Yeah you'd never make a mistake 🙏
@@Lonqudor what an absolute gloving chad
@@Lonqudor sounds like the eviction notice tbh; it's a high attack speed melee.
You missed 1 stat imo. The melting of the spycicle. It would make the game unplayable with pyros. Like oh no my rocket launcher melted lmao
That was eligible, and I really did think about it. I decided not to add it because I thought it would cause confusion within the comments as to whether it should be eligible.
technically it’s a meter tho so it would be ineligible
Gunspy
@@yang_notI feel as if the entire statistic being tied to said meter would make for an okay exception. It’s basically “on hit by pyro: unable to use this weapon for 10 seconds.”
The -2 Health regenerated stat does in fact, deplete your health when put on a non-medic class. The weapon itself has that stat and is only counteracted by the innate health regen, not modifying their existing stat.
The “Damage Penalty” stat would not affect all sources of damage in the game. Certain things like sentries, Shield bashes, and reflected critical attacks, would still deal damage.
I like how if all weapons were given the -100% dmg penalty the only way of killing eachother would probably be thru taunt kills or airblast
Actually taunt kills are also affected by damage penalties
You can see this with the sandman vs the atomizer
@@vikavolt11 The pootis pow counts as bullet damage, too. I know because I managed to pootis pow a pocketed heavy but his vaccinator medic activated the bullet resistance and barely did any damage.
@@vikavolt11 crap i forgot
Afterburn, shields, bleed, the righteous bison and the flying guillotine would work.
@@wizardii4961 Pretty sure -100% damage would apply to the bison and shields lol(and the flying guillatine immediate hit), but yeah it would literally be just DOTs
I was thinking of the 75% damage penalty on the fan o war for the entire video and when I saw the end I was like "oooohhhhhh"
"That's rough buddy" mentality
The worst downside is no random crits
That’s funny
legitimately tho
How about Halloween restricted? Imagine having to wait until October in order to use a weapon!
thats- you managed to find a stat thats debatably worse than -100% damage. bravo.
@@jafsrob That's- yeah, I- wow, I never... t-t-thought about like that...
5:06 the Razorback having no overheal whatsoever is to stop the weapon from essentially countering 2 classes since it’s already designed to limit Spy’s options and if the Sniper is overhealed it also limits the options for opposing Snipers simultaneously. So with that stat added you’re essentially forced to decide “Would I prefer to limit Spy or give my allied Medics the opportunity to help me counter Sniper.
And then there's the modern Danger Shield
@@retrodarktrooper6372 'fuck you for playing pyro'
@@retrodarktrooper6372Well thats just opportunity cost. Darwin shield means no razerback and no jarate.
It also has an indirect upside to the medic as it means they never receive the overheal penalty for charge rate.
If you ever come back to this series, i have a funny idea, “worst positive stat on every weapon” and the opposite, “best negative stat on every weapon”, basically stuff like the Beggar’s Overloading, which lets you rocket jump off thin air, but is listed as a downside, etc.
Haven't watched the video but I'm sure the worst downside must be 'No headshots' on Crusader's Crossbow.
I consider Headshots a class specific mechanic, so I make it ineligible
@@Lonqudor But it's not a class specific mechanic on Medic, who the weapon is on.
I'll take the headshot stat but only if the thing stopped healing and reloading passively
@@Lonqudor Um actually according to my calculations the grappling hook from Mannpower does 2 damage instead of 1 when you hit someone in the head, meaning every class can headshot 🤓🤓🤓
@@Lonqudor ambassador doesn't exist. cool.
Technically, the Boston basher doesn't deal damage if you hit the ground or a friendly player, so if you apply that to any other weapon it wouldn't damage you if your shots hit the ground a wall or a friendly gamer
In my defence, I utterly forgot about that. I’d still put it in second place though due to the overall nature of bullets disappearing after set distances, but thank you for reminding me!
That's fair, and it's not like it made the video less enjoyable to watch by any mean
I will say about the Blutsauger, when you get it as a class that isn't Medic in Randomizer, it does actually drain 2 health per second
Missing leading to taking your own hit. So you have to not only deal with your health draining, but you have to deal with any debuffs the weapon also came with. End up marking yourself to take more damage or dealing with the aim punch of the damaging debuffs.
Yeah, I can see how that would be #2.
I really wanted it to be Number 1, but I couldn't put it there in good faith
Unfourtunally there is problem with your explanation for widomaker stat. In reality due to well known spaghetti code every class has metal meter but it is capped at 100 for every class except engineer. So this stat would be bad in a vacum - you would be able to fire only 3 shots on any weapon after which you would need to visit ressuply cabin or pickup ammo box (probably not from dead player as metal in their ammo box depends on their metal ammount - in normal game they have no way of lowering it). Shounic or Shaunic (i dont remember excact channel name) has full video detaling this mechanic and he even put it to use by enabling pda for all classes - everyone could build everything except of sentries (Its cost is 125 but metal is capped at 100).
“In a Vaccum” is the judging criteria for this video. “Per shot: -30 ammo”, in a vaccum, has nothing to do with metal.
6:25 The reason (I believe) why the panic attack has that stat is because when a person is in a panicked state, they are less likely to be in control of the situation and tend to aim worse. Like me whenever I am playing gun spy and try to shoot a pyro and somehow miss all my shots.
I'd still give the damage vulnerability to the warrior spirit due to it not having the speed boost that the escape plan does.
Exactly. The panic attack is meant to be a last resort kind of weapon, not your primary weapon (which is why Heavy, Soldier and Pyro have it as a secondary). It's meant to cause a great burtst of damage to quickly kill an enemy that's threatening you, but that's it.
@@M4x_P0w3r this makes a lot of sense, and there would be serious debate as to whether it would be better than stock if it didn’t have the downside. But I still feel they could’ve gone with something else, like No Random Crits
Do correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the less accuracy stat a leftover from the previous panic attack iteration where it is the counter to the positive where the lesser health you have the quicker the gun shoots?
@@M4x_P0w3r All of the shotguns on those classes are last resort/secondary
@@FletcherCat Yeah, but something like say, the Family Business, is definitely orientated to be more aimed towards longer skirmishes, considering the larger clip and faster firing speed. And the Reserve Shooter is more of a combo/counter weapon to blast jumping enemies.
My guess is -100% damage or cant pick up intelligence
ooooh cant pick up intelligence is actually pretty bad.
I think the worst downside is that of the of the sniper rifle
as soon as you get a 5 killstreak on it your parents die in real life
The Ambadassor's critical hits are effected by range would cripple any sniper, and most flare guns as well as many crit related weapons.
That one was really close to making it on the list. Probably would’ve been my 3rd choice for stats that didn’t get on
For me (althought not listed as one), when you miss with the Dragon's Fury... Oh boy, does it hurt.
2:04 I’d argue that the 30% vulnerability is worse because if an enemy weapons is boosted by buff banner, jarate, or whatever else can minicrit or mark for death, it would stack with the 30% vulnerability.
So if you’re marked for death and someone throws jarate at you, the 2 won’t stack, but if you have 30% vulnerability and someone throw’s jarate the 2 will stack and make you extremely vulnerable
I think a “worst upsides” and “best downsides” video would be pretty interesting, like seeing which stats are the most useless
I’m REALLY heavily considering it right now. So many people have joked about it to the point where I think it’s a good idea.
8:14 "Gloves of Gloving Urgently" lmao XD
That was a goofy mispronunciation that made the name 100X better
This is about my seventh video where I refer to them as that
The reason why the -100% overheal on the Razorback exists is because of Highlander. Basically you used to be able to pocket the sniper and give him 183 hp which meant he couldn’t be killed by an enemy sniper’s quickscope, and you couldn’t backstab him which meant that he was basically indestructible short of a coordinated bomb, which you already have to do to kill the medic so it just ruined the mode entirely because you had to hard focus two people instead of one.
For the record I never use the Razorback anymore because I consider it a straight downgrade unless there are 3 spies on the other team, which if they have they’re losing anyways. I’d rather be able to use overheal to my advantage to win sniper duels.
the gloves of gloving urgently... bruh
I think the panic attack's inaccuracy stat comes only from the name.
"Panic attack? Hurr durr well you panic so you are inaccurate"
It's not just the name. The deployment speed bonus and the added bullets per shot all contribute to the theory that you're supposed to switch to it out of desperation and go for one or two meatshots on an enemy that got too close while you're not ready with your primary weapon (or while your sentry is down/too far away, if you're engineer). If it takes you any more than that then you start suffering from the spread penalty but only if the enemy is far away enough for it to make any difference.
It's kind of just a more complicated alternative to lowering the clip size, which they probably did because the reserve shooter already had that so it'd be too obvious that it was a bit of an uninspired idea.
Bleed on miss would be hellish in anything other than a melee, imagine that on a minigun
Edit: knew Boston Basher would be on it, knew it.
12:38 it might not work that way if it were ever properly made an all-class but when you roll the Blutsauger on randomizer servers (at least back when i played those a lot, it may have changed) it actually did drain 2 health per second on every non-Medic class.
Clearly it's the Nostromo Napalmer's x4 melee damage taken from Isolationist Pack Scouts
At that point, the katana's "instantly killed by another guy with the katana" would heat it.
However that's not a weapon stat, it's a set 'bonus' that requires you to wear the MK-50 helmet and equip the weapon at the same time. Same as the scout needing to be wearing the full cosmetic set to get that melee damage bonus.
@@Psyche_TH It was a joke
Getting the persian persuader in randomizer basically kills your loadout. I miss the old persuader.
I think being able to do random crits is the worst downside
Now we need a third and fourth video for class mechanics only, because they were neglected by you for far too long
And then a fifth and sixth video talking about the worst upside and the best downside
@@Lonqudor hmmm
best downside gotta be the rescue rangers "4-to-1 health-to-metal ratio when repairing buildings", seeing as thats actually an upside over repairing with a wrench which is 3-1(ik its ineligible)
worst upside is harder.
"On Equip: Visit Pyroland" is pretty bad
"Knockback on the target and shooter" from the force-a-nature is absolutely unplayable on some weapons, but amazing on others.
also, best and worst white text.
@@jafsrob There are many other good downsides as well. Self-damaging downsides can be used to build uber, and many of them work as mobility tools as well. While Boston Basher's downside was in this video for a good reason, it could be counted as one of the best downsides as well.
@@wombat4191 oh yeah, beggars downside lol
While being marked for death you usually will take more that 135% damage because of no damage falloff
I think -80% to sentries should be up there
Considered it. But at the end of the day only a few classes care about Sentry damage. -20% DMG to buildings wouldn't change Scout, Sniper, Spy, Engineer and Pyro very much
@@Lonqudor but the thing is that sentries would be basically undectructable.
A pipe would do 20 damage on direct hit, 6/7 if was wrangled. So the effective health of lvl 3 would be 216 * 5 * 3(if wrangled)
Which is 3k+ hp
It would take more than 30 direct pipes to destroy a lvl 3 sentry
You forgot the spy-cicle's "Melts on contact with fire" tho
That was eligible, and I really did think about it. I decided not to add it because I thought it would cause confusion within the comments as to whether it should be eligible.
I feel like if the force a nature's knockback on target and shooter stat was a downside it would be quite insane on this list
"Best let the friendly live"
Good ending :D
Idk if it fits the criteria but the liberty launcher's -25% damage penalty turns what could be a nice side grade to stock into a downrigth downgrade
"gloves of gloving urgently"
From what I can’t tell with the successive shot become less accurate stat on the panic attack is because it’s meant to be switched to and from quickly for extra damage so it punishes you when you don’t use it like that
The idea of a hard-scoping Sniper immediately dying of cardiac arrest due to missing their shot is unbelievably amusing. Otherwise, I feel like one of the most frustrating downsides you could put on a weapon is the Spy-cicle's "Melts in fire, regenerates in 15 seconds and by picking up ammo".
Imagine trying to do anything when a scorch shot is in play...
i like the mock rock approach! side note, on the metal thing being ineligible - this isn't a specific edge case that only the engineer has access to. shounic did a video about it, all classes have 100 metal (hence dropping 100 upon death) and if they may somehow use it, they can replenish it like usual. it's already programmed! which is neat
Funny you mention the blutsauger's -2 health regeneration. Back when i was a wee TF2 rookie, for so long i couldn't understand why folks would want to use the Blutsauger (ignoring the crossbow, i didn't know the potential back then) because i didnt know Medic had self-regen health, and this meant a reduction in THAT, not how i thought it worked, where you were fighting a battle to stay alive by shooting while you regularly lost health.
One thing I would like to point out about the Boston Basher's self hit stat is that it doesn't actually deal the full Boston Basher damage to scout, rather dealing 18 damage + full bleed. But since mechanics are considered in a vacuum that doesn't really matter in this discussion lol
I hate the -100% overheal downside so much. Whenever im playing medic i see a sniper and im like „oh! I can overheal this person, they get headshot or something but barely survive thanks to me! And then that person will be very thankful!“
But then i heal them, and nothing happens. They dont notice anything and just keep shooting.
Its so sad..
Something that should be mentioned is that every class has a metal pool of 100 if their name doesn't start with an Engine and end with an ER.
So every non engie class can take advantage of the metal consuming weapons, it's just they have half the reserve to work with and can never know exactly how much metal they have at a given time.
Also, the "-2 health regeneration" stat should be read as "regenerate -2 health every second". You do actually lose health holding out the blutsauger. I should know since getting the blutsauger in Randomizer means you start taking damage and can do nothing about it.
Overheal arguably is the most important on sniper, most other classes just get the overheal as a little bonus to shave off some hard to anticipate damage, but sniper has a very important reason to get overheal, with overheal, a sniper can survive a quick scope and basically auto-wins sniper v sniper match-ups
as someone who often plays medic the Razorback's disabling of overheal hurts
The boston basher's downside isn't actually hitting yourself it deals 18 damage to himself despite his melee dealing 35 damage base, so you'd realistically be looking at it being at around half the damage of misses, rather then anywhere close to what you were using
Then why the hell didn't the Wiki tell me it only does 18 damage?
Except you take 40 bleed damage after taking 18 damage
@@Lonqudor You take 40 bleed damage after taking 18 damage, the wiki is right
@@MeesterTweester the bleed damage comes from the bleed damage the weapon inflicts, the weapon deals 35 base to enemies, now this does mean that similar debuffs, buffs and DOT would be tracked, like fire, Jarate, madmilk, bleed and possibly even explosive knockback
@@Lonqudor a boston basher swing will do a full damage of 75 on a hit after bleed, but it will deal only 58 if you miss, again, only after the bleed does it's job, so the direct translation of damage can either be seen as 18 damage per miss, or around 50% of the damage the weapon would deal, but despite saying the downside is hitting yourself, scout takes less total damage then he would inflict, also as far as I'm aware the damage he takes doesn't change on minicrits or crits, so there is room to argue it's only base damage that can be reflected, which means that things like crits would not let people oneshot themselves, unfortunately
I was literally just thinking about the rocket jumpers cannot cap stat as number 1 because it would literally make the game unwinnable, looks like I just forgot about the stat that’s right next to it
Some notes:
- Modded servers demonstrate that increasing the Bludsaughers's downside actually does cause you to lose life constantly, so that's just how it'd work on other classes. Still, the GRU downside is signifiantly worse.
- I'd like to mention the Cow Mangler's decreased damage vs Sentries stat since if it were on more weapons/every weapon it'd suck. A lot.
- the BFB's speed reduction would be pretty abysmal on other classes, especially without the speed boost mechanic to compensate.
- "This weapon melts when exposed to fire" is technically an upside but imagine that on a class other than spy.
- The Equalizer/escape plan's -90% healing would make Medic useless if it were widespread. The Back Scratcher falls under this umbrella too, but less so.
- Half-Zatoichi's -50 HP when you switch off this weapon would be particularly painful for... Basically all the light classes tbh. Power classes can kinda work around it since they're better at killing, but imagine having to lose 50 HP for a flare combo.
Blutsagers downside is irrelevant as we are judging these stats "In a Vacuum". "-2 health regen", In a Vacuum means "-2 health regen". Not health drain.
20% Damage to buildings was considered, but this truly only affects the Power classes. This wouldn't make a difference on the Support or Pick classes.
BFB is classed as a meter, so ineligible.
I'm unsure whether the Spy-cicle counts as a meter weapon. Don't worry, I did think about it, but left it off the list out of avoiding confusion.
For the lesser healing from Medics, I considered the Back Scratchers version as unlike with the Escape Plan, you cant swap off it. It eventually got replaced with the Widowmaker.
Also thought about the Zatoichi, but ultimately decided it just wasn't as bad as all of my choices. It could've potentially replaced the GRU.
@@Lonqudor I think the issue is that the phrase 'in a vacuum' is too vague as most people are reading it just to mean you're not using any other stats at the same time. It doesn't really imply 'the stat only works the way I interpreted it'. Perhaps something like 'in plain English' might make more sense? It needs to clarify that you're using words like 'ammo' or 'regen' in their general meaning that a gamer coming from another shooter would immediately assume, and ignoring the technical definitions in TF2's code.
@@Lonqudor"In a vaccuum." I'm not sure you understand what those words mean. But you defined them yourself as independent of the weapon it's on, the class it's on, and potentially how it would work with other class's weapons.
Changing how the mechanics of a downside work to fit how you think the text should translate wasnt included in those things.
5:04 The -100% overheal penalty is so you can't tank a headshot from an enemy Sniper while having the Razorback equipped. This is so that if you do put it on to avoid being backstabbed, you can't have a Medic also negate your other counter as a Sniper. You're trading a potential advantage in Sniper 1v1s for an advantage in dealing with Spies. I think that, while the Razorback as a concept is inherently flawed, this is a good downside for it that makes its design more fair and cohesive for what it is.
I like the idea of how -100% overheal could really affect Medic's overall gameplan (Literally transforming him into a sorta Mercy), but this would also mean Medic always builds Über at max rate, like how the Quick-Fix used to when it was bugged since it didn't overheal past the slow down percent and always gave enough to be underneath.
In other words: If the Overheal build rate isn't also patched out so Medics build at slower rate on fully healed targets, this could be an indirect buff to balance the lost Overheal.
The Quick-Fix still does this and I don't think it's a bug. It's an indirect stat but that doesn't mean it's a mistake.
I feel like the cow manglers 80% damage penalty to buildings is pretty bad, it only works on that weapon because it has an alternative that allows him to disable them for a few seconds. If that was on say a grenade launcher or a minigun, it would make dealing with engineers literally impossible as you'd be doing basically nothing.
Surprised the Holiday Punch wasn't mentioned, even though it kinda overlaps with the -100% damage penalty thing.
5:14
Also, an overhealed Sniper can survive a quickscope headshot or a fully-charged bodyshot
Imagine any demoman weapon having the Boston basher downside.
I think the worst and the "worst" are both stats attached to weapons belonging to a single class, the spy and his YER and Kunai
The YER has that GOD AWFUL cloak drain penalty that absolutely fucking gimps your ability as spy to do a core tenant of your class, your cloak barely exists and it forces you to use the l'tranger and maybe the C&D to get back to slightly better cloak drain, this also being on a knife most people see and spies worst knife (I love it tho its super satisfying for a hammy ass actor kind like me)
The other worst is the kunai's health penalty which is worst not because its bad and affects you as the spy in a detrimental way, more so the worst in that it barely exists as a downside and can be mitigated before you can even say "oh look a f2p backside", yeah you can be one shot by a ton of things now but first you could be one shot by alot of them anyway, second your not really suppose to be face tanking shit as a spy and third again, you can just ignore the downside the moment you get a stab because you become immortal.
"No random critical hits"
That would have sufficed.
Sniper exploding after missing a fully charged body shot 🔥
man i dont think i’ve noticed it before but who let my man cook with the LQ title card
Is that bad?
I think the marked for death penalty is worse than reduced health, at least on any weapon you're incentivized to use often. Medic? It's on medigun/crossbow, L. Sniper rifle? Screwed. Rocket launcher? Awful. Shotgun? You'd never ever switch to it.
No damage falloff is so so much worse than reduced max health, it'll take some 30 damage tickle of a rocket and turn it into a 120 damage ouchie.
Of course, reduced max health is always bad, on any weapon, and works on ones you can't hold or never have reason to.
good video (also i like the music on this video)
Fanks
i think for pellets like shotguns, the hit yourself only applies IF you missed all the pellets. You technically did not miss if you hit only one bullet hence does not apply to On Miss
With the pellets and shotguns disappearing after a set distance, this downside would still be very applicable in large open maps.
But you are right, this is something I should’ve mentioned in the video
The Widowmaker's -30 metal mechanic wouldn't be as bad as you describe as every class technically has a metal reserve hidden (Pretty sure every class except Engi has 100 metal).
This means that the -30 metal mechanic would give every class 3 shots, due to consuming that metal reserve, and not their ammo reserve.
No random critical hits
Thats not downside, thats upside 😂
Dont come to me crying that you lost to random crit
@@KL53986who's gonna tell him..
that’s easy NO AIRBLAST god dam that stat CRIPELS phloog so much it’s nearly unbelievable
Yeah, that's against the criteria buddy
@@Lonqudor lol i know but like lets just be honest if there was no criteria THIS WULD BE NUMBER ONE admit it
(also 66% slower owerheall is also insanely bad)
@@master-pz5ed but not as bad as -100% max overheal
i wonder if the ammo penalties (from the persian persuader and widowmaker) would give the pomson and righteous bison actual use cases lol
also the widowmaker's -30 ammo per shot would make the cow mangler and the rocket jumper the only usable rocket launchers
Amused holiday punch didn't get a mention, crits doing no damage in the vacuum would be so garbage. Random crits would become random fumbles, kritzkrieg would be a hindrance, sniper would be useless and the crit storage and on demand weapons like amby/frontier
I think the damage vulnerability of the candy cane is still worse as it is always active and would make one grenade deadly for every class under 125.
2:44 Mimi bullies Solider in 4k
Very first stat of the video at 1:50 is wrong.
The warrior’s spirit and escape plan only give vulnerability when holding them out. The candy cane makes you vulnerable to explosives ALWAYS. way worse than being marked for death while holding your melee.
I am aware, but I chose the Escape Plan due to the lack of damage falloff from the crits. I think taking Mini crit damage at any range is worse than taking extra explosive damage all the time
@@Lonqudorimo the candy cane is worse since it makes light classes a one shot from rockets and pipes. (100 damage+100x25%=125)
3:32 my brother in Crist, you can use a shield with a sticky bomb launcher
The Boston Basher one might not be too bad, actually, since TF2 bullets have infinite range, and hitting the environment with the Boston Basher doesn't count as a miss. If hitting the environment with a bullet weapon DID count as a miss, though, it would be pretty terrible.
3:23 was just watching this casually cos it appeared in my recommendations and noticed myself in the Turbine gameplay lmao
I had so much footage from that game. It is quite well, it was very fun. I’ll have to reuse the rest of it at some point
all classes do have a metal pool, just since they don't build buildings it acts like a secondary ammo thing that you cant use unless you are somehow using the Widowmaker or Short Circuit
Check the bottom line of the description
@@Lonqudor all classes have metal it's still a vacuum, if a scout equips the Widowmaker it pulls from the scout's metal
8:29 it used to be the BEST stat, but was removed because a heavy with 3 MILLION overheal was a little too overpowered.
mans said it again! "Gloves of Gloving Urgently"
Surprised the Back Scratcher wasn't a contender for this video. Healing less from Medics, Dispensers, and Payload carts is huge, the only thing that prevents it from being detrimental is the fact you get more health from kits. Remove that buff and you miss out on 3/4th of all healing sources without a way to offset it.
It was on the longer list. It was probably the second one I cut for time, the first being the Skullcutter, and third being the Ambassador
Finally this vid came out! Guess nobody with right mind gonna argue about lack of ability to deal damage being worse than self damage, or -55 health really.
the boston basher is literally viable solely because of its "downside" actually being one of the strongest upsides in the game, allowing you to build uber with medic and opening up movement opportunities by launching you upwards when you hit yourself, allowing you to jump like 20 feet with just one hit.
Yeah, but he wasn't rating the Boston basher, he was taking its red stat and saying it would be awful on anything else.
@@Psyche_TH plenty of melee weapons would benefit from it. for example, take demo's most often run melee in competitive play, the half zatoichi. it allows you to hurt yourself.
an engi weapon with that stat would be good for the same purpose, same with pyro, heavy, and it is good already on scout and demo. I agree on weapons that aren't melee it could be problematic, but it also could be fine given that it would have to be paired with an amazing upside to have been considered balanced by any dev team.
I would argue that the Persian Persuader's downside wouldn't apply to the Widowmaker(And Short Circuit ig). But getting locked into exclusively using the most punishing Engineer primary sounds.......fun
Edit:Wouldn't the Boston Basher downside technically make the Widowmaker a 'Blood for bullets' ordeal?
The funny part about Blutsauger is that it actively is a perma bleed just for being in your loadout, so you are required to use the healing equivalent to nullify its effects unless you are bold. -2 health regen in TF2 is actively losing 2 health per second, so its interesting you mention the "loss" part not being accounted for despite the fact it does exactly that.
If every weapon had the -30 metal per shot every class would have 3 shots because every class has a base 100 metal which is why sometimes on engi you will see +100 metal when you spawn in
Check the bottom line of the description
5:19
Full voliume trust me. I promise.
ok, now let's make a weapon with all the downsides at the same time
With the Persian Persuader the Backburner gets the same downside as the Phlogg
The damage vulnerability on the buffalo steak 😑
But interestingly, the Boston Basher does not deal the full 35 damage to you when you swing it and miss.
The escape plan downside as well as the warrior's spirit downside aren't as bad as the candy cane. The candy cane's downside is permanent on the wearer, while the other two are only while deployed. Additionally, the candy cane downside absolutely destroys every light class, just like how it does on scout.
There is that yeah. Im sticking with the Escape plan as any shooting weapon with that downside would basically be unusable, but it was really close
next video: what is the worst upside in tf2
I wonder what the best downside is. maybe I’ll make a joke video about these
@@Lonqudor best downside, though ineligible, is the rescue rangers "4-to-1 health-to-metal ratio when repairing buildings"
I think the worst downside for a TF2 weapon is no random crits. That could potentially make your weapon do over 200% less damage, so sad : (
Weapon downsides in TF2 have always seemed like a strange case to me
-100% damage on detonator would actually be kinda cool
The Boston Basher stat would be a great way to nerf sniper
5:19 lon'qudor bottle opener dying
I was kind of surprised about the top three.
Honestly I had thought about the -90% healing from all sources (Escape plan stat) being at least #3, but I can see why your choices are worse. I mean, literally unable to kill anything is messed up in a special kind of way.
I considered putting the Back Scratcher’s version of the lesser medical healing on here for the reason that you cannot swap away from it like you can with the Escape Plan.
Eventually I cut it and replaced it with the Widowmakers downside after I realised how broken that was
@@Lonqudor Yeah that's fair haha, great video though man
I don't know how The Blutsaugers downside isn't on this list. Taking -2hp per second means that as a light class you only have over 1 minute of living before you die assuming you don't heal in any way.
Another thing, The Candy Canes 25% damage vulnerability applies to you even if you don't have your weapon out, while all the other weapons you listed only affect you if you are actively holding the weapon.