Who Can Become a Top-15 All-Time Player? (Other Than LeBron, Steph, and KD)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ย. 2023
- Giannis? Jokic? Luka? Tatum? JJ Redick, Richard Jefferson, and Tim Legler take a look at the current players in the league and try to decide if they think any will be top-15 all-time player by the end of their careers.
Subscribe to The Old Man and The Three podcast w/ JJ Redick (ESPN / First Take) and Tommy Alter TH-cam channel today for more NBA analysis, player interviews and highlights. - กีฬา
Giannis and Jokic. Think Luka will have a great chance as well
Luka isn't in his true prime yet, but he's on the brink of it. He's still getting better each year. I think Luka at 26+ will truly be unstoppable.
@@cryptidian3530I disagree. Luka is already prime. He had a 60 20 10 game bro.
@@cryptidian3530to your point,I assess that Luka hasn’t reached his “peak”. Which is bad news unless u love the mavericks
@@cryptidian3530he’s worse this year he’s not even scoring at the rim
Luka might never win a championship.
Outside of Bron Steph and KD, Jokic and Giannis are the only players who are worth considering in this conversation. They have the accolades and Stats to back it up.
Embiid, Luka, Tatum are a tier bellow as of now but they got the potential.
That's a good point, whats the difference between considering them in conversation and potential? Have a good day!
@@djviper636I think he means it’s basically just going that extra mile and winning a chip. Also they both 2x MVP’s as opposed to 1x or 0x and Giannis also has a DPOY. So I think it’s just that they have the hardware to make a better case then the others.
@@_kaleemwillson yep basically what puts you in a top 15 conversation is playoff success, chips and maybe a couple more all nba selection and longevity. Talent wise, Iuka, tatum and embiid are already on par with some players on the top 15.
The revisionist history with the raps chip is hilarious to witness. Before klay went out the raptors were outplaying them. But now we gonna act like that wasn’t the case lol
Bro what Gianni’s wasn’t a star like luka was when he first came in and jokic put Luka on the bucks the nuggets 6ers and with him healthy there going back to back
Luka has legit made 4 first team all nbas in his first 5 seasons… he is assembling a legendary resume as we speak
But you have to be honest he isn’t with Giannis and jokic more so has the potential
@@gravy7414not yet but he’s also only 24, by the end of his career Luka will definitely have a shot if he keeps up this pace
@@Liam11433 yup
LMAO Tatum is better than Luka, Luka hasn't achieved anything other than getting bounced in the playoffs. Luka is just a media darling
@@juandelacruz3718and tatum achieved?
JJ tried to sneak EMBIID on the all time great list 😂😂😂😂😂
He can 😂
Nah, JJ just knows ball unlike you lmao
I usually get annoyed with ranking Embiid that highly-but it's okay to bump up your personal friends.
He said potentially
@@owmegwoagm he's obviously biased towards his former teammate
It’s a damn shame Kawhi has dealt with injuries because when he’s healthy he’s absolutely in the same tier as KD
🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@JohnnyJay81 i hope ur not laughing bc u think its outrageous. Kawhi is a monster. Before Zaza he was whooping the warriors
@@JohnnyJay81Bro doesn't know basketball 😂 Kawhi if he wants cab give u 30+ like KD but KD can never defend like kawhi😂
If Kawhi can bring a chip to the clips this year he most definitely surpasses KD on the all time list no debate
Better than KD any day. He did what KD can’t do with the Raptors
Jokic easily.
He has some of the best adv stats of all time, rivalling Mike and Wilt
Hell no just got lucky in the playoffs, everybody was injured, played 3 play-in teams and got carried by Jamal Murray
Rivaling Bron, wilt and mike*** Bron has the most records out of all of em
And lebron RS00010. If your naming stats can’t leave one of the all time leaders dude. Come on
No way you’re not trolling
@@Imunderthewater45778why are you blaming them for getting No.1 seed ? Blam the Celtic for choking against heat.
If Jokic gets another MVP this year then heck that’s already an awesome resume.
Another championship matters way more than another MVP tbh.
Last MVP was undeserving. Jokic was the clear MVP and everyone knows it.
@@nosrellomtrue but MVP and a WCF or Finals appearance makes him cemented top 15-20 same with Giannis yall forgetting about my boy💯🦌
Jokic putting up stats but they losing without Murray. Just like a few years ago. They won't give him another mvp like that again.
Jokic has 3 mvps already.
Jokic and Giannis is probably the only answers right now....Already all-time greats
Kawhi is also there. If only bro can play more than 2 games per season
It’s Jokic and Giannis. I’m tired of having Tatum and Luka’s names being thrown in this mix when they haven’t won anything yet.
Luka hasn’t had a team anywhere near good enough yet has performed at a high level in the big games.
I really don't get why seeemingly intelligent basketball analysts don't give Giannis and Jokic the credit they're due. Sure, Tatum and Doncic are great players, but they can't be compared to guys who have won multiple MVPs and have led their teams to titles.
I think if Tatum wins 2 chips he’s an all time great , he did make a finals tho
Well to be fair we are talking about future projections,
Giannis won his first title at age 26 year 8
Jokic 28 year 8
Lebron 27 year 9
MJ. 28 year 7
Hakeem 31 year 10
Shaq. 27 year 8
Luka is year 6 age 24
Tatum year 7 age 25
The only players who won early ages were ones drafted to teams with Hall of Famers along side them the first 1-3 seasons
Duncan with Robinson
Kobe with Shaq
Kareem with Big O
Magic with Kareem
So not saying Luka and Tatum will make it but they still have time.
Sure but these are different situations. Luka could easily be the most skilled out of them all but lacks the team support so far, while Tatum has a mixed of both to a lesser extent than Jokic and Giannis
Giannis and Jokic for sure have a shot. Top 15 is tough we're talking (in no particular order) Jordan, James, Russell, Chamberlain, Olajuwon, Shaq, Kobe, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Curry, Duncan, KD, Big O, and Moses. I can see Giannis and Jokic passing Big O and Moses... but the rest of those guys are hard to pass up. Maybe in 10 years Doncic and Wemby could be in the conversation, but that's a lot of legendary talent at the top.
Giannis and Jokic can definitely pass KD as well
it would be hard to. 13x all star, 4x scoring champ, youngest scoring champ ever, 2x champ & finals mvp, 1x mvp, 10x all nba, with a top 5 ppg average. And when its all said and done he will be top 10 scoring all time. Jokic and giannis started too late to beat that in my opinion.@@patrickporter4440
Giannis and jokic passed kd for me just based on how they got their ring and how kd got his
You forgot West, KG, Malone, Doc
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 That was Bill Simmons' basketball pyramid top 15. I really gotta sit down and think of my own top 15. I'm biased towards centers though, Hakeem is my all time guy.
I think Tier One is Jokic Giannis and Kawhi. First two are obvious, and if Kawhi somehow sneaks one more ring in and a FMVP with the Clippers (doubtful but, maybe) that becomes a really interesting conversation. He'd have to sneak in the top 20, maybe even 15. Unfortunately his career is more of a "What If" at the moment because of his injuries in the middle of his prime.
Tier 2: Tatum, Luka. Tatum is already getting to finals and conference finals, don't know if an MVP will ever come his way based on his game and competition, so he needs FMVP's and rings. Luka needs a better team around him, at only 24 you'd hope they can retool the roster over the next 2-3 years for his prime and make some runs. The Kyrie trade doesnt seem to be a great fit but time will tell with a full year. Either way not enough talent with the right fit around him.
Then there is everyone else.
This right here. I honestly wouldn't even place KD ahead of Kawhi. Kawhi has that "it" factor that KD has never seemed to have. It's too bad injuries have plagued him so much. He's one of the biggest "what if" stories in the NBA imo
@@zacht.9585confused this is the first comment mentioning Kawhi. He's been top 20-25 all time already
Saying Embiid at this point is funny, haven't seen bro make it out the second round yet
@simple45679 ya I too was surprised no one else mentioned him. And agreed. Embiid has no business being mentioned in top 75 imo not yet at least. He certainly has potential to be top 25. Unfortunately injuries have plagued him. And I will say, that Kawhi game 7 shot was pretty devastating for his legacy. Just a few bounces away from an alternate story for both players.
Right now, Jokic and Giannis are on another level given their playoff success. They too have that "it" factor. Their teams tend to punch above their weight, as opposed to Embiid's teams which tend to underperform.
@@zacht.9585 Yea, Kawhi and KD are close as it is now. If he wins one with the Clippers, there is no debate. Kawhi won with Russ and Harden while KD could not.
And plus, if Kawhi retires as the all time winningest player by percentage, he's ahead of KD in my eyes, even without another ring. Currently, he's at #3, 73.2%. #2 is Larry Bird at 73.6% and #1 is Magic Johnson at an even 74.0%. He was #1 just a few years ago when he was with the Raptors.
Jokic and Giannis have identical accolades. Both are 2 time mvp. Both are finals mvp. Both are nba champions. Giannis is a defensive juggernaut and Jokic is an assist savant. Both have advantages on each other. I mean this is an era of these two.
The problem with them is that the rest of thebleague is wack for the most part.. who has Jokic battled that's at his level? Embiid. That's it. No Yao, no Shaq, no David Robinson, no Hakeem, no Duckworth, no Ewing... list goes on.
Only Embiid. Not top 15 if you don't have competition
@@jdfraed123that’s such a laughable statement. The league is FILLED with talent, just because the league isn’t Center dominated doesn’t mean Jokic doesn’t still have to go head to head with some of the greatest players in the game.
bam would be a top 10 mvp candidatre if jokic and embiid werent around, averaging 22, 11 and 4 on best team in the east? crazy centre numbers plus guarding 1-5 on the other end plus amazing rim defense. plus gobert and AD also HOF level centers. Heaps of competition for jokic and embiid @@jdfraed123
@@jdfraed123 Excellent point. I've always said that Kareem played against more hall of famers at his position than anyone in the top ten on the all-time scoring list.
not identical, giannis got dpoy
I'd love to hear you discuss the top 3 or 4 at each position who could play in any era over the last 40 years who could contribute to team success in various ways.
The problem with that is, who is to say all 400 players in the NBA wouldn’t have adapted their play style to the era you put them in? As the world goes forward, people go forward with it- it’s relatively ignorant to say people wouldn’t because we are all products of our environment. What we don’t know know, we don’t know.
@darealest2exist260 its pretty easy honestly. You take their current game and how they play, they skillset and try to transition it to different times and think on how they would fit compared to others. Obviously you dont go well if they played then they would worked out different did this differently or that differently. It will never be perfect way but the only way you can do it is to take what their game was like during they time
It aint perfect but its the only way
@@williamcroson7387That is literally what everyone is doing, when fantasising about players in eras. To think that any particular player would bring his game as is, to a separate point in history is just making sh up. There is no way to get realistic analysis, and never will be to that end. Only feels and opinions.
The only real thing you can do is to compare how dominant, unique and inventive certain players were in their respective eras.
Oh, and to the OP.
Greats would be great in any era. Problem solved.
How did I miss this episode. The dynamic between this trio is perfect.
This should be the permanent lineup. Bye bye Tommy Alter
Such good nuanced conversation!
Luka is 24 and averaging 28 8 8 for his career and made first team all NBA in 4 out of his 5 seasons. He still has a lot of time to win championships and MVP's and I think if we talking about potential Luka is definitely the player I would choose to get into the top 10.
Stats mean nothing without championships.
Its really hard to get multiple championships in todays League... I mean its always hard but there is a lot of talent spread all over the league... I think the amount of talent is higher than it ever was... so we have lots of teams with a superstar or multiple stars... but what we rarely have now are superteams that stick together and make it work like past iterations of the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Spurs, Heat or Warriors of the past... as good as Steph and LeBron are... they had a lot of help and stacked teams compared to their competition. Winning without that is generally rare but it gets rarer every year. Giannis got one and Joker got one without an all-NBA bei their side. Giannis couldnt repeat that success and it took him some time as great as he is... we will see about Denver. Took them a while to come together and overcome injuries as well... And no one is denying that those two are by far the best players of the current generation of superstars. To get the accolades players had decades ago will be incredibly hard without a superteam like the Warriors had.
It's easier today all you have to do is shoot 50%. THe other team will shoot 33% cause all they do is long half court shots. 50% beats 33% anyday and everyday.
@@JimBrave-ri1oc wtf are you talking about
Steph didn't have a lot of help in 2022. 2022 was Steph and Kerr's masterpiece.
What was stacked about the Kerr Warriors first and last title teams?
@@cycleoflife565 they weren't stacked at all. 2022 was one of the least stacked title teams of all time. They won in 2022 mostly due to coaching... We now know Poole is very inefficient, they got the most out of that roster
People forget how great Giannis is , he’s definitely the best two way player. Defensive ability matters a lot.
His playoff offense is mid though
His offense is literally just Run and Dunk. It doesn't always work in the playoffs especially against good defensive teams. They got lucky in 2021. BKN was injured and had terrible defense. Suns were below average defense too.
His defense over rated as well
@@DonKey496 His "run & dunk," is actually highly skilled.. He has handles/footwork and a deep bag when he does that.
matters a lot is an understatement - You GOTTA be a killer on both ends. Curry ain't NO WAY a top ten player in history, a lotta guys above him, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, MJ, Shaq, LeBron, Hakeem, Kareem, Russell, so sure Steph is a top 15 , probably top 12 even but let's not get carried away
Great work guys! Love it!
The last point that RJ made is interesting, because there's never been a foreign player that's carried the league ratings-wise, but the best players coming up are foreign-born guys.
That’s because NBA will never promote them because they’re not American. Instead they went with Ja and Zion and that didn’t turn out well.
@@PeePeeMilk They seem to be promoting Wemby a bit though, let's see how that turns out
@@nifemi_o good point
@@PeePeeMilkshut up lol, jokic just isn't flashy abd fun to watch. Espn been d riding luka 24/7 for 5 years now
@@SamuelMills-ez4jo that English is terrible. It has everything to do with the team he’s on douchebag. If he was on the lakers they’d be d riding him.
Giannis and Jokic only currently... others have a lot to prove and show before we even consider them
He's not there yet but Luka is well on his way. The fact that he is in this conversation at all and only 24 years old should tell you something. We will just have to see how it plays out in the years to come.
Agreed, people are far too focused on him being a 'bad defender', which is already no longer the case. The main issue he has is somewhat shaky freethrow shooting, being a bit of a ballhog and yapping way too much to refs. He has a good case for MVP , with how well he started this season.
Luka has done nothing in his career other than get bounced in the playoffs LMAO Empty numbers on a mediocre team. TAtum is so much better
@@juandelacruz3718 He is 24 and he hasn't played with a championship caliber team. Michael Jordan didn't make the finals until he was 28 even though he was putting up crazy numbers. Takes more than individual performance to get over the hump. Usually a players peak is around 27-29, so he still has time to prove himself. I mean Dirk didn't win until he was 33.
@@juandelacruz3718god damn hop off Tatums nuts
@@juandelacruz3718Tatum better then Luka, lol...stick to chess or something...28.4 career average, breaking numeros records...smh
Great Topic ‼️‼️‼️‼️
if kawhi doesn’t get injured by zaza he’s top 10 no cap. bro was mad durable too
Yeah and I’d like to think PG could’ve been too 20
Yea Kawhi for sure also I like when a player has 20 k points too and shows he was a high level player for awhile like Embid and Kawhi should have ALOT more points
@@_Charles_LeClerc_no to PG. He’s been a choke in the playoffs his entire career
BIG FACTS!! People always bring up that Zaza stepping into Kawhi when they were destroying GS by 25+ but everyone also forgets SA lost Tony Parker the series before and he ran the offense. The offense had to begin running through Kawhi and they STILL (without TP) we’re destroying golden state. He’d definitely have another Finals and Finals MVP under his belt, if not more
I believe kawhi is still top 20 two rings,2 finals mvp,3dpoy unlike curry he plays both sides of the ball at a high level the injuries really slowed down a trajectory nobody could imagine
I feel like its destiny for Giannis to end up top 10, the storyline of his life, the dominance on both ends and a real chance at winning more chips/MVPs
With dame too now I don’t think people realize yet that there just getting started
Agreed sir
Destiny…lol what a dork
@@mbelma6329 who uses the word dork in 2023 🤣 put on your wheelies and roll on out this comment section 🤣🤣
Giannis probably won't get another MVP. They go for "narrative" quite a bit these days. In the last few years Giannis has been a distant third behind Jokic and Embiid. Now I understand Jokic being ahead in MVP voting, but how was Giannis behind Embiid each of those years?
The sports writers have also been pushing Luka a lot in preseason writing a lot, even though he hasn't shown that he would make that jump.
Ok so a little tricky . The only players rn that are on the trajectory (other then Steph , kd , bron ofc) is jokic and Giannis. Now players that I see with the potential to get there is luka , Tatum , booker , Anthony edwards and then maybe about 2 more I’m leaving out . So other then Giannis and jokic it’s no clear cut tho on who will cement themselves as legends
Shai???
You can't compare someone like jokic, who is a unique force we have never seen to someone like tatum who is very good, but is a talent we have seen plenty of times before. Jokic will easily be top ten all time and if he was American it wouldn't even be in question
No way in hell Tatum , booker or Anthony edwards get close to top 15. gtfoh
@@kevinlakeman5043 don’t come at me talking crazy , once again you never know what will happen , if in 2013 someone said Steph over next decade would become a top 10 player of all time you’d probably laugh right? My point , I’m not banking on them doing it but those players are really good and I’d they start winning more I don’t see how that’s so insane to you lol , jayson Tatum especially the Celtics have been on the brink of dominating for years so if he starts winning rings his is more likely then booker and ant that I threw in .
@@pantrywarriors9577 sure we’ve seen the talent but I’m also banking on that he will eventually probably start winning rings so that combined with the talent is what could get him there . I for sure don’t think purely as a player he is unique or special as someone like jokic
JJ your podcasts when it comes to basketball talk are unmatched...
Unless he's taking about LeBron and MJ. Then he becomes a clown
I think Luka is somehow still underrated. We have not seen what he’s really capable of achieving with championship caliber teammates.
guy is 24 and is doubled and tripled every time he touches the ball. He's the most feared guy in the league
@@allandeaton5928Wouldn’t go that far. Has to be Jokic currently after last year. Especially as Luka is hunted on defence, Jokic can at least hold his own
@@hardwoodthought1213 Luka's D is much improved this year.
@@hardwoodthought1213sure but in that sense, that's the area he has the most opportunity to improve at. Jokic is pretty much complete and peaking at the moment and Luka is still under 25 and pretty much single handedly sonned the Suns and made the Clippers as a whole respect his name. So far.
@@janezkarlin9874bro I would hate to be on the suns or clippers and see the Mavs in the first round cos we all know Luka bout to drop 40, 10 and 10 on them for his series average. No doubt he’ll prob’s have like 2 buzzer beater game winners in that series too 😂
Jokic and Giannis. Thats it. No one else is even close to even being a possible unless things drastically change
Agreed. The top 15 is getting harder and harder to crack. You really have to be a talented, accomplished, and an iconic generational player who adds something to the game overall. Jokic and Giannis are each headed for the top 15, but no one else comes close right now.
I think Luka can be up there with Giannis and Jokic with the right star alongside him and team which the mavs have shown to not be able to do at least this far into his career unfortunately
Luka is just different gravy, it goes:
Giannis and Jokic
Then Luka
Then the rest
He will have to learn to share the ball. He is not the most efficient player so the fact that he needs the ball all the time is hurting Mavs championship prospects. His game is going to have to evolve significantly if he is going to enter that conversation otherwise he will just be another Melo or Allen Iverson.
JJ matching the light shade?!
Love these 3 talking ball. So refreshing vs espn.
Outside of Steph Lebron and KD, Kawhi is knocking on the door resume wise but I feel like his clippers stint keeps him out of the top 15 unless he makes like 2 more ECFs. Jokic and Giannis are a lock as long as they keep on their trajectory for atleast 5 more years. Tatum has to breakout and be the clear cut best player in the league at some point and I just don’t see that happening. Embiid too.
Top 10 all time is awfully hard to get into. Here are some guys:
Jordan
Lebron
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Magic
Steph
Duncan
Kareem
Kobe
Shaq
Olajuwon
Big O
That's 13 already. If Luka, Tatum, or Embiid are getting in there, they have some work to do. I think Giannis and Jokic are close; they're probably around the Moses Malone/David Robinson range, which is just under the guys I have above and has a few guys in it like Jerry West and some others, imo _(I think Giannis and Jokic are both above KD in terms of all-time greatness; KD is a slightly better scorer, but Giannis is a better defender and Jokic is a better passer, and both have more MVPs and more impressive title victories)._ Both have back-to-back MVPs and 1 title, for which they won, and absolutely deserved, finals MVP. Giannis also has a DPOY and Jokic has all the triple doubles and insane efficiency. To be clearly top 15 all time they need to separate themselves from other greats like Moses Malone, David Robinson, Jerry West, and others.
to be top 10-15.. u need longevity, periods of dominance..
Jokic is better than Hakeem and O and it’s not even close. Also russell was a terrible offensive player which is hilarious when they say how bad jokic is at defense when Russell was worse at offense than Jokic is at defense also bills 11 titles had to go through 2 playoff series and 3 teams.
Jokic is so much better than Kobe it’s not even funny. Kobe is the most overrated basketball player of all time. He is Bradley Beal 1.0
Jokic is far closer than people would like to admit. IMO he already is. He’s arguably had the best offensive peak out of any player in history and had an all time finals run leading the playoffs in points assists and rebounds
@@CoC_Lord joker needs longevity to be in top 10.. which we just need to give him time.. thats all he needs . Not that I think this will happen.. if I told u he's gonna be average for next 5 years... Is he still top 10? Many guys on that top 10 list have played at an elite level for quite a while.. we just need to let his career play out. This banter of how he's already there is kinda meaningless..
Giannis and Jokic for sure. Others are not proven.
In the league right now as it is right now 5
Lebron KD Curry Jokic Giannis. Outside of this if these players I mention do it at a high level for at least 10 to 15 years win a few and become more dominated and talented and have accolades which seem harder to get with the media and favoritism etc than they will be in the mix for sure.
KD is not top 15
Giannis and Jokic. BTW Giannis is a DPOTY that counts too.
Thing with Kawhi is that 2019 playoff run where he averaged 30 and beat that many future HoF on the way to a chip with no HoF level teammates was insane! I can’t think of 10 guys you could plug in and achieve what he did that year.
Kawhi did in 2019 pretty much what Dirk accomplished in 2011, they are in the same vein of championship runs.
I would still rank Dirk above Kawhi all time.
@@steviechampagnethat's tough for me since i grew up watching dirk and that fadeaway but then with kawhi i love the way he plays when "healthy" and he won more chip.
Load Management makes Kawhi out of the list
@@user-gl7zc6ze1u Dirk is also the #6 All-Time scoring list and he was essentially the first 7 footer ever to be a sharpshooter from anywhere on the floor.
He is the prototype Kevin Durant and truly changed the game.
@@steviechampagneLebron and Dwade weren’t injured in the finals when Dirk won. It’s not comparable. KD came back and was cooking Toronto but then went out for good. If the warriors were healthy they would have washed the Raptors.
I think a more interesting question is Giannis over KD all time? When his career is done, Giannis will have DPOY and a Finals MVP as the sole leader of his team.
All because of Durant's big toe.
Is KD even top 15?
@@joedagg4495As opposed to Durant having the Justice League on his two rings?
Man are yall joking? Answer this question. Was giannis elite is whole career? The answer is no. All of these all time greats, off the rip were averaging 20 the rookie season!!! That’s all time great.
Throwing Embiid's name in that conversation is bananas. A guy who was in playoffs 6 times and best he did was conference semis (with in some years a good team)
JJ, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on my team and your former team the Orlando Magic
Jokic and Gianni’s are like a couple spots away right now
Nope. You guys do not understand longevity. Giannis might be a bit closer, but Jokic isn’t even a top5 center yet. If they retired today, neither one is close to top15. They won’t have enough counting stats, and that matters along with your other accolades.
@@deadprecidents I’m projecting also in my rankings
@@JonathanHarveygoat2009 Couple spots away from top 15. Who's your 11-15?
@@gumballwaterson1957 curry Wade bird bill kawhi
@@JonathanHarveygoat2009 Aight Wade in top 15 is one of the wildest takes I've seen. Kawhi in top 15 is up there with wild takes too when he hasn't done much in the regular season and has had only 1 dominant post season run as the top dog.
Bird outside top 10 is also wild considering Bill is not in your top 10, but I can see some people putting him there. So who's in the top 10 if you have Bird, Bill, and Curry outside the top 10?
The following are prototypes: MJ, Lebron, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq, Steph, Duncan. Other greats aren’t necessarily one of one; ie Kobe is a MJ copy, so technically not a prototype.
In the current and coming generation, Jokic and KD are the only other prototypes. Maybe Giannis. Wemby is getting that hype, but of course time will tell
Edit: I’m sure I missed someone. Go ahead and fill in the gaps
Good theory
hakeem and wilt are 1 of 1 lol
Luka? He is unlike everyone else. Better passer than LeBron, his size, without the athletism, shoots better from every area of the court, more clutch, streaky like steph but more consistent. Has the craziest game winners in NBA history. Rebounds like Rodman
@@JorgeReyesMDLuka is a Bird copy
giannis is a prototype FOR SURE
In general, following people are considered top 6-10:
Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt
They all have multiple championship along with 10+ All NBA. Has more than 1 FMVP (Except Wilt as there was no FMVP in 60s). They all have longevity.
Giannis / Jokic already has 1 FMVP and 2 MVPs so they are definitely on the pace of getting there. Couple more rings and longevity will definitely put them around 10-15.
They can definitely edge KD (I'd say, they already edged KD) if they have more longevity and even Steph.
Giannis and Jokic is the correct answer, but the next two are for sure Kawhi and Luka. Kawhi window is closing but if he wins another championship, might overshadow his lack of MVP’s. Luka still has a long road to go but he’s putting up all the numbers and seems on the right path with a long time to go.
If wasn't for injury kawhi had 3 to 4 rings right now
@@joeyidusora4978🤣🤣🤣🤣
Luka, Giannis & Jokic
Kawhi for sure. 2 defense player of the year, 2 finals mvp.
Luka has bad leadership and bad defense. Bad combo
@@realspitter272710th in iso defense this season
@@P4P5 lol pick one specific thing to point out. If you watch their games, you know damn well he does not play good defense. I live in Dallas and see every game. Some of you just like him so you defend him blindly
Jokic and Giannis already have a legitimate shot. Too early for players drafted less than 5 years, but Luka already defies that, so he will likely end up in the convo if he continues with his career progression and he actually wins awards and at least a chip or two... the other person that would have been if not for an injury-ridden career is Kawhi
So happy to hear Legs mention Tatum first after Steph/Bron/KD and rightfully so
STEPH IS NOT OVER KD
Giannis. Easily
Hell no.
He got a lucky championship
And he got a lot of weaknesses
@@waillachab284 How very convenient that his championship is deemed lucky. Please tell me which weaknesses do we see in him that aren’t already seen in some of the consensus top 15 players of all time?
@@waillachab284 Injuries are apart the game. it happens. Almost every, if not every, championship had players injured throughout the playoffs. quit being dense
Giannis easily, joker easier
@@trathagoat1756 he got the suns in the final 🤣🤣🤣🤣every good team in the west was dealing with injuries and without mentioning The Nets
So stop it
The luckiest championship in the past 70 years in any sport
Looking to put young players in the top 15 is extremely unlikely and a little disrespectful.
You got:
MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Russel, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan.
Then you got:
Hakeem, Steph, KD, Wade, Giannis & Jokic.
That is already 16 players. There is no one that can squeeze in there right now. Especially Giannis and Jokic still have prime years ahead of them. I am going to assume one of them is going to win 1-2 more championships before retiring.
you didn't watch, they're not looking to put young players in the top 15
it's a hypothetical discussion about who could potentially make the top 15 by the end of their career
no one is trying to say they're currently above some all time greats, in fact they were very respectful and gave props
Yeah super disrespectful. They always try to do this. I remember when people were doing this with Derrick Rose, or even guys the caliber of Brandon Roy.
I watched the clip. Even by stating they have the potential to get into a top 10-15 of all time is crazy. It means by the end of their career, they have to be better than the people already in them. I don't see anyone with that potential apart from Giannis, Jokic, Steph and KD from current players.
Do we really think Tatum, Embiid and Booker has that potential after some of their playoff performances?@@_WeDontKnow_
Amazing closing argument by Rich.
Spat out my water when I heard Embiids name mentioned
It’s only Giannis and Jokic right now, nobody else for 10-20 spot.
It’s starting to get wild how much people are ignoring and disrespecting jokic. He was literally a passing thought here. In America we like fake wrestling way more than real sports fighting so I suppose it makes sense that we like style over performance
First off, what did pro-wrestling do to you. Secondly, he was a passing thought because they all agreed, are they supposed to argue who's supporting him more.
Joke's on you. "Real sports fighting" and "fake wrestling" are all owned by the same people.
@@Victor-vf4tl lol nothing man im just saying americans enjoy the entertainment sometimes more than the outcome. Wrestling of all kinds is cool no hate here
.... They literally all said he and Giannis are the clear answers, what about that indicates that he's a passing thought? Lol. The discussion was around Tatum, Luka, Kawhi, etc.
@@treydigs02 I dunno I watched this a month ago dude but maybe youre right
Bro I would've loved to see who JJ put on his list where Tatum and Embiid make the Top 15 looool
Alotta players in today’s game can clear the whole top 15 if they start winning multiple championships , we can’t keep painting the picture that players from the 60s-90s will be the best/greatest forever especially now where the league is clearly more skilled and talented and competitive
They never mention the DPOY being the major difference between Jokic and Giannis.
It's implied.
Giannis is nowhere near Jokic in offense. He's an MVP because he's elite on defense and good in offense. Jokic is elite on offense and good in defense (yes, he is, watch the playoffs and stop looking at blocks highlights).
Playmaking and good shooting in favor of Jokic and atheticism in favor of Giannis are actually the biggest differences.
@@a-j.200230 10 & 5 is “good” on offense💀 Giannis is better on offense than Jokic is at defense by far
Or the fact that Gianni’s is not even half as skilled as jokic in basketball, we have seen games where Giannis gets shut down. Jokic very rarely does
@@a-j.2002giannis is elite on offense. he averages 30-10-5. he’s 100% elite on both ends
They give kd the respect kawhi actually deserves
same amount of championship and fmvp but kawhi got less first teams less mvp than kd
Tatum is a CLEAR talent and/or production tier below Jokic and Giannis. Luka is the only other ATG level player when you're talking about who has a chance to enter the pantheon imo. Embiid and Kawhi are simply not consistent enough producers. A sneaky name that they did not consider (given a player like Tatum was mentioned) is SGA. If the Thunder realize their full potential and he ends up with a couple Finals MVP's as the leader of a perennial contender for the next 4-6 years while putting up ~30/5/5 with ELITE efficiency as a 2 way threat, that's a name who will skyrocket up a list like this.
Here is the list when completely excluding 4 guys from the older era (pre 80s).
So no: Russell, Chamberlain, West, Robertson.
in no particular order (ignore the numbers)
1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Bird
9. Curry
10. Olajuwon
11. Durant
12. Dirk
13. Wade
14. Isiah
15. Moses
So besides the 4 guys from the pre-historic times who would throw Dirk, Wade, Isiah and Moses out of the top 15, here are some other names who are close to top 15.
Btw the reason I don't include the old guys is because there were less teams at that time and there was no 3pt line. The game changes quite a lot with the 3pt line.
other guys: Kawhi, Karl Malone, Garnett, Pippen.
So lets discuss Jokic and Giannis:
I believe both of them are just above Dirk and below Durant.
But are they better than the 4 guys from the old era? - maybe better than Oscar, maybe better than West.
So they have a legit argument for already being top 15.
Ah I see ESPN is staring to rub off on JJ Reddick with these top 10/15/20 all time topics 😂.
It is the most boring thing ever. A very tiresome topic
Good boilerplate slop over thanksgiving weekend
@@emmanuela7528dont click on the video if you dont like the topic
I think right before this they were talking about the future of the league post Lebron/Steph so it felt much more natural bringing up this topic. The clip alone though just makes it seem like an ESPN segment 😭
Giannis and Jokic will definitely be top 15, when there careers are over.
Finals matchup need to happen
Oh my god JJ found a shirt that match the lights perfectly
RJ brought up a good point at then end, who has the potential to be an all time great AND be box office exciting like lebron or steph? I'm not seeing anyone out there right now.
Hate to say it. Out of the 5 PF gods: TD, KG, Dirk, Malone, and Chuck, only TDs spot is secure.
Giannis's resume is absolutely filthy: 1 ring, 1 fmvp, 2x mvp, 1 DPOY. Its a tough conversation to have, but one of those 4 guys is getting bumped off.
Giannis only won a ring because the entire League was injured though. Ended up barely beating out a Nets team with only KD, a Hawks team that had no business being in the ECF after Phily choking, and a Suns team that also only vsed injured teams on their way to the finals and also had no business really being there. Giannis' ring is a bigger asterisk than Lebron's in 2020.
what's the argument for dirk, chuck, and KG over Giannis???
@@tetsuya2ko what's the argument for Malone over giannis? That's the point I'm making.
@@TrueGuardify lame take. Luck and injuries is a factor in every championship.
@jivexturk3y Malone is 3rd all time in pts. "this game has always been, and will always be, about buckets"
Luka has the highest potential to crack top 10 with his current trajectory.
He also has the lowest chance of winning championships
And he is even 10th in iso defense this season
@@Jason09_Idk the way he played vs. Clippers and pheonix if he had a better team? Clearly, he could win.
@@Jason09_Are you saying that because his team isn't good enough? That should be the only reason.
@@nycat666 Not really , Luka’s style of play doesn’t allow his teammates to have success , unless he sacrifices his own numbers which won’t happen because he only dominates the offensive side of the game
Jokic and Giannis are prolly already top 30 or so. So with one more ring and 7 or 8 more All-NBA level seasons they both will be top 20 easy. Then I would say Luka and Tatum need at least 2 or 3 chips along with some MVP’s and another decade of all nba stats to crack the top 20
I feel like Quentin Grimes and Daquan Jeffries would be the two guys when all said and done
Jokic: the way hes hobbling while running, it seems like his body will give out or he will retire early. He’s literally running around like Dirk in his last year. His skillset is there though to be top 15.
Tatum: Seems like he lacks body control. His movements are so linear for a wing.
Luka plays no defense. His game seems like Euro Harden but better. I think the only chance is Giannis because of his talent and heart. If he develops something other than bulldozing to the basket on offense then he’s reaching top 15 easy.
Jokic and Giannis already are top 20 and they will easily be top 15 when they finish their careers
Giannis and Jokic are close to that. Other than these two basketball monsters, maybe Luka or Ant.
i'd say the 2 main guys are jokic and giannis but luka and tatum both got a chance as well
I wanted to hear what JJ was excited to say at the end!
Jokic, giannis, luka. Maybe Tatum and Vic.
Luka with bad defense nahh
If Jokic gets another ring and another FMVP I think he’ll already be there he’s just the perfect Offensive player
if he gets two more rings or another ring and mvp then he would be right at that 13-15 spot imo
He could be top 5 center by the time he retires
Stop it you 🤡
Jefferson!!?!, said JAYCHOKE TATUM😂😂😂😂😂😂
He better than your favorite player 100%....that's why your mad at him lol
Lukas on the top 5 track.. giannis and joker had slow career starts.. lbj and mj hadnt won ring at doncic age we just gotta wait
Giannis and Jokic might end up in the Top 15 0r 20...Those 2 guys can probably get at least 3-5 Championships and Finals MVPS...Different set of Playing Styles that can win
Either could crack the top 10
lol if say jokic have 5 rings he is top 2 if he gets 6 or 7 he would be undisputed goat.
@@nebojsabozic2146 Jokic wont win more than 3.The parity in the NBA is crazy. There are many great teams that will have to share championships. The era of repeating and three peating is over which you need to get to 4-5 rings
Jokic is top 15 already
Giannis and Jokic already are both top 20 this is ridiculous
Luka and Tatum have to prove it this season. They're short on something all top 15 players have: individual hardware and rings. Luka's in year 6 now and Tatum's in year 7. Giannis, Jokic, LeBron, and Curry won their first of two consecutive MVPs in year 6. KD won his only MVP in year 7. The clock is ticking for Luka and Tatum.
we have to start lowering the value of an mvp though to be honest. With so much talent in the league you have to have just an absurd year to win mvp especially with jokic averaging a ridiculously efficient almost triple double. I think Tatum has already proven himself with all his playoff success. Luka on the other hand hasn't done anything in the playoffs outside of 2022. We should absolutely value playoff success over mvps at this point.
Luka hasn't even been to the finals yet lol
24 and 25yrs old respectfully they got 10more years to get that hardware let's see
Ant will be in that convo after this year imo. Dude's a magician on the court rn
A top 15 player all time convo after this season?
it’s crazy that the only players we can mention now are overseas players besides steph n bron n kd
Giannis is the most dominant player off the dribble to the basket that the game has ever seen. If he wins 2 more titles he's going to be top 10.
Yeah most dominant until he faces the Celtics, then he gets owned by Horford lmao
@@juandelacruz3718 WTF you talking you about? Yoy mean like when they went 7 games without Middleton in the playoffs and Giannis became the only player in history to put up 200 100 and 50 in a 7 game series? 😂. Grown folks talking ball, go lay your dumb a** down.
I think kawhi could definitely be there. Especially if he gets a 3rd one with a 3rd team.
I wish Kawhi had better knees because it wouldn’t even be debatable. He is an amazing player when he actually plays.
This kawhi take is amazing. You're 100%. One more ring and everyone will say it.
Sad career if he stayed he probably would be top 10 by know will see if he can get another one
No, he would have a legendary career of his own, but his totals and regular season awards are nowhere near.
@@Irfanhillthe regular season is irrelevant
Tatum should not be in the conversation. He has already topped out.
I think the last RJ take is tricky, because LJ and Steph are charismatic, iconic superstars, which has a lot to do with these audience numbers. But Tim Duncan has a resumee as good or even better than Steph's, and he never had that aura. I sense something similar about Jokic. I can see him winning multiple rings and FMVP, but I think he will never be an audience raiser like LJ or Steph (with the Denver Nuggets at least).
Duncan’s resume dismantles Steph’s with all due respect
@@hardwoodthought1213Duncan’s resume dismantles everyone outside lebron and mj..so what’s ur point? U mad cause Steph better than Duncan without the defense lol..Duncan could never win 73 games In his life
@@jessicagalvan3358 Lol, you’re deluded. Steph isn’t close to Duncan. Duncan was the best offensive player on double the title teams Steph was whilst being the best defender alive. Your man losing awards to bench players and being hunted on defence 😂😂😂😂 Needed to call another MVP to get the job done. Duncan won 4 titles without even an All-NBA a teammate by his side, no other player in history won more than 1 without that.
@@hardwoodthought1213 when ur 6”11 u don’t need anyone..and this man said the best offensive player lol..I’m done dog..u Ididot men just like to talk..fucken regards
RJ will summon the death eaters for disagreeing with his take
If Kawhi can win a chip with the Clippers he’s top 15 all time
Top 15 with 0 mvp is crazyyy
Nah
The finals MVP award started in 1969. Wilt and Bill Russell should be on that list.
To keep it 100, Haliburton may be the next US NBA player to reach a status. Or Anthony Edwards
Too early for those guys. They are more on track to end up having a Deron Williams or John Wall type career.
@@joedagg4495 mind change yet?
All Luka needs is a championship he will be 1
And Tatum will be hard with the team around him he needs at least two chips imo and I don’t think he can do it
They seem to have a knack for choking
Tatum is really good, but i just don’t trust him to show up the same level Lebron, KD, Steph, Jokic, Giannis do. Maybe they can grab a championship, but i think tatum is a phenomenal no.2 . Is that a crazy take ? 😭
@@itszirvah wouldn’t it be hilarious if he becomes two to doncic?😂
Theyed probably win a few honestly
@itszirvah Tatum a #2 😂😂😂. But you have Luka up there who can't even get in the play in with Kyrie. Yeah that's a delusional take. 😂😂😂
@@mockgriftclowns6729thank you!
I think he for sure has the talent and skill set, but I just don't trust him to get it all the way done as the number one. That feeling before a series or a big game where we know lebron is going to show out, or we know curry is going to have a good game, i just dont get that same feeling with tatum. Maybe im delusional, but im just explaining a gut feeling I get @@mockgriftclowns6729
Respectfully
Tatum and Luka hasn’t done enough YET to be mentioned alongside guys like
Giannis and Jokic who to me already have top 25-35 careers when you really look at what they’re doing and the records they’ve both broken
Tatums done more than all of them by 25
The whole conversation is about which players are on an all-time great path potentially, if their production and accomplishments continue and grow. They were pretty clear about this in the video.
@@revampmusic56 Tatums had a way better team then every player mentioned.
@@danielrasmussen2167 what I’m saying is they shouldn’t even be mentioned they’re in a tier below Giannis and Joker.
@@Jay_Briscoe alright, carry on. Listening and reading are fundamental.
Giannnis, Jokic, Luka maybe (too young to know). The others are too far.
Top 15 players of all time is crazy rarified air. It's Dr. J, Jerry West or Moses Malone spot you're trying to take!
The shirt and the light is trippy 😂
Jokic is already top fifteen.
No.
u know it brother
Jokic/Giannis/Embiid.
i don't see how giannis and jokic are in the "what if" conversation still. i don't think it's unreasonable to already have both of them top 20 with what they've done
Some good takes from RJ ngl
1. Jokic ceiling goat debate with LeBron and MJ.
2. Giannis ceiling top 10 definitely not top 5.
3. Luka ceiling top 10 but if he never wins a title might barely make top 25
4. Wembenyama still has goat conversation potential but way too early to predict that.
5. Long shot but SGA and Holmgren may be the next dynasty that wins 3 plus titles and the better of the 2 might be top 15 conversation after that.
Tatum has won so much so far, and he’s in a situation that could also win multiple titles but personally I feel he’s just a tier below as a talent.
jokic ceiling is top 15 not top 10. giannis cieling is top 5. neither are in goat debate
All of the advanced stats for all time it’s Jokic , MJ and Lebron at the top of the list.
People don’t realize how ridiculous it was last year to average
30ppg 13rpg 9.5 assist on 55/45/80 shooting splits in the PLAYOFFS..He’s not as bad on defense as people say because they’re trying to discredit him.
@@trewic8678Giannis is too flawed on offense and is in his 11th year, I don’t even see a top 10 all time talent tbh
No. Lebron and mj were both elite defenders in their primes. Jokic is not even close
@@juju-vl7oj People don't just rank on advanced stats, especially when 99% of NBA fans don't have a single clue how the stats are calculated or why. AD has the 4th highest PER of all time. David Robinson the 6th in PER and 5th in BPM. No one who's followed the NBA for a long time has either AD or Robinson even sniffing the top 20 all time let alone anything better. NBA isn't baseball where stats have held far more favor than winning. Not only that advanced stats can't be calculated for every historical player either.
Jokic, right now, has absolutely no argument for GOAT. None. Bron didn't even have an argument for GOAT until his 3rd ring, and even then, it was weak. Wilt, the stat record king, is left out of the GOAT convo cause he didn't win enough. Kareem, who has the same argument as Lebron for GOAT only has more accolades, doesn't get much love as the GOAT. Jokic even being projected ceiling as GOAT with only 1 serious playoff run is the peak of fanboy delusion.
Luka would be a basketball hall of famer just off his European career. His nba success will follow soon.
Yeah, he's already a Hall of Famer. He's just adding to his resume at this point.
This is a good question. If Westbrook or Harden gets a ring they are clearly in the conversation.
hell no
How are they in the conversation in an already established Top 15 Players of All Time even if they have won MVP before and if they're lucky to get partnered up with a super star and pull their own weight as a sidekick? They have to get past guys like KG and Hakeem. Those very rare moments of stats padding and exploiting the rules at the time during their career ain't gonna cut it.
To be an all time great, should be multiple winners of championships, mvps & finals mvps.. Jokic, Giannis easily.. already champs n 2x mvps
Steph and KD are closer than people think. Steph is great and he had the higher peak but KD has done it for longer. I think it’s definitely Jokic, Giannis and Luka with that top 15 potential. I don’t think Tatum can get to that level, he’ll be great for a long time like Dirk was for example with MVPs and finals appearances but many don’t regard him as a top 15 player.
The Warriors dynasty would have ended if they didn’t persuade KD to join them. The fact that he took all the flak is strange. They all flew out to the Hamptons to recruit him.
Then proceeded to win again stfu
@@LatestDecember8907exactly these people alway fail to mention Steph doing it again while dominating the team that swept KD
@@westbronco9066 weird analogy because the Warriors and Nets weren’t equal. NBA basketball isn’t played on paper. Teams that build up that chemistry usually wins. Perfect example was the Nuggets and Suns last year. The Nets were a mess that year with Kyrie only playing road games and Harden basically quitting and the main piece they got in that trade didn’t even play that year while the Warriors built that chemistry over the year.
@@josh0766 Kd teams always seem to have bad chemistry that’s strange