Should Man United knock down Old Trafford?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2024
- Manchester United’s Old Trafford isn’t the “Theatre of Dreams” it once was.
The club have announced plans for a “world-class” stadium. Why is it so important to have a state-of-the-art arena, and how will a shiny modern new stadium improve results on the pitch?
Ayo Akinwolere is joined by The Athletic's Matt Slater and Andy Mitten, part of The Athletic's dedicated Man Utd podcast Talk Of The Devils, to discuss what options are available to Manchester United when it comes to a stadium renovation or even rebuild.
00:00 Intro
00:28 What should Man United’s priority right now?
03:23 Stadium redevelopments
07:02 How much will it cost?
12:29 Debt & the Glazers
17:29 The City of Manchester
19:29 Business & Man Utd’s history
25:35 A ‘new’ stadium
31:58 Regeneration
34:28 Legacy for Sir Jim Ratcliffe & INEOS
42:58 How does Man United bring the fans closer?
44:30 Manchester United & the Premier League
48:41 Final comments
48:50 Outro
The Athletic Football Podcast is your essential guide to football's biggest stories, five times a week this season...
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Ash Donelon / Contributor / Manchester United via Getty Images
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As a Milan fan, who's going through the very same debate with our beloved San Siro, I'd say there comes a time for every club to do the needful. Sometimes (as is the case with San Siro), the cost of renovating the whole place doesn't justify the end result, and a whole tear-down would be preferable. Hope to see an Old Trafford worthy of a historical club, like Manchester United ⚽⚽⚽⚽⚽⚽⚽
Your channel has old Tifo vibes. Loving the graphics as well. Keep going bro.
Fully agree on the san siro I had the chance to watch Ireland beat Romania in Italia 90 it was an unreal stadium but sometimes you just need to start again
As a fellow Milan fan I have to say San Siro is even more outdated than Old Trafford so we have to move on and build new stadium
great opinion bro, agree with you!
San siro getting demolished is a crime against the spirit of football tho
I could listen to Andy Mitten all day! Great Journalist
You'd have to listen to him all day before he finished a point! He's all over the place
Night and day compared to that absolute fkcn sausage Lukhurst!
Sweet jesus..have some self respect
He's delusional, completely disconnected from reality.
@@Neezabjamitten is? You're talking bollocks
One of the best podcasts I've listened to in a long time, every word based in truth and facts. Just brilliant
Apart from them conveniently glossing over how the glazers took full ownership of the club...step forward Alex Ferguson and David Gill.. the two solely responsible for the glazers being able to take full ownership
oh stop it... 2 men can not solely be responsible for the take over of a publicly owned company.. grow up@@dairefinnie1533
Love the idea of just reducing Old Trafford capacity and keeping it open for the public as a women’s/youth team ground, while building the new stadium on the same site. Also solves the problem of where we’d play in the meantime
I think that's what they're looking at. It makes the most sense considering they already own the land.
Is that possible? I'd imagine downscaling a stadium would cost almost at much at upgrading it to modern spec. Saudi money could afford that kind of job but I'm not sure the Glazers would want to basically fund two stadium projects
That's a fantasy, only oil money could bring about such fantasies.
@@nicknewman7848Why so small when Arsenal Women are selling out the Emirates with 60,000?
@@nicknewman7848 There's a reason they have 115 charges on their head.
Matt Slater is brilliant- incredible journalism throughout the Ratcliffe takeover
Yep..he looks even better next to that chancer mitten
Totally agree. Obviously loved the club, but he just chats so much bullshit its unreal. "people in the club tell me....."@@dairefinnie1533
He was a financial reporter early career. Spent two decades with BBC. There aren't many on the sports journalism who has that variety of experience
There is a reason Andy Mitten is respected ! Quality journalist when it comes to United.
It's time for a world-class stadium 🏟 and a world-class team that will compete and win Championships!
Hopefully, the Championship title lol
beat me to it! 🤣@@davidsaville5239
PMSL at that, probably need to rebuild twice before that happens 🤪🤪🤪
Eh..hate to break it to you but you support a advertising company..not a football club
@dairefinnie1533 Who do you think I support then?
Completely fine with debt funding for the stadium as a Utd fan. Nothing wrong with debt for the right reasons.
Everything wrong with debt for the wrong reasons, I.e the glazers leveraged takeover, which the fans were right in saying never should have been allowed.
United were a PLC when the Glazers bought us - it was literally impossible to disallow them from purchasing us via a leveraged buyout. That's normal in business. Apart from a rival bid, there was no mechanism to prevent it happening. Not by the fans, not by the club, and not by (gods forbid) the state.
@@aidanmagill6769 I understand the legality of it, what I mean is the Prem should have stepped in and blocked it. Fit and proper owners testing? I see they have made such leveraged takeovers impossible as of today, so they clearly realise the mistake they made and have atleast learned. But it’s no good to Utd now.
VERY good interwiev !!! Thanks 👍
Great episode! Really informative
The major barrier to any positive change is the greed and lack of interest in the club shown by the Glazers. Their ability to take money out of the club is their priority, and will only be removed by getting rid of them.
I agree with Andy Mitten, I first went in 1968 as a 10 year old when we had the open scoreboard end with the new cantilever stand and the old railway side and Stretford end. I was all for redevelopment but felt gutted when the old floodlight pylons came down (but I didn't have to climb them in mid winter to change bulbs !!!!!). OT today bears no resemblence to 1968 and the smells are different too (Bubble gum and hotdogs is how I remember it !!). I am all for a new stadium because as Andy rightly points out, we are getting left behind by Madrid and Barcelona, and to claim we are the biggest club in the world, we need facilities to match. I agree with the new Stadium and redevelopment of the area, we need to be better than Madrid and Barcelona in order to compete with them and attract the right players to OT..........the redevelopment will be a boost to the area with new infrastructure so I am all for it........
Absolutely. And call it New Trafford.
Sorted 💪💪
I think it will be a sponsor name stadium. Like a Ineos Arena or something like that
New old Trafford. 😅
2 old school brilliant united journalists . Love it 👍
You don't get the historical insight into Manchester United stadium and commercial rise without Andy Mitten here and Matt Slater provides solid support also. 👏🏽
As a tourist to the UK if you had a choice to either visit St. Paul’s cathedral or the latest purpose built mega church, where are you going to go?
Depends if it’s raining or not
Great episode,good information!!
A new stadium would pay for itself, the immediate uplift in ticket, corporate and secondary income would cover the repayments on the debt incurred with more left over, plus the restoration of the club's prestige would be enormous.
The piecemeal approach is riddled with issues - does the team move in the interim, the extension over the railway is problematic as hell.
It's a no brainer.
Assuming a 2bn payout doubles Utd's match day revenue (not necessarily profit) to 8m per game, that's an extra 80-100m per season. Not irrelevant, but it would still take 20-25 years to pay for itself. Not accounting for interest on the debt, inflation etc.
It's completely the right thing to do to build a new stadium, and downsize and modernise the existing one to a museum and youths/women's stadium. But its the sort of thing you do for legacy, not for short term profit. So long as the Glazers are the majority owners...they will always block that sort of empire building. They just want cash.
At present The Old Trafford Stadium is still incomplete & needs is an upgrade of the SBC stand & East & West quadrant to be completed first before you can sort out the roof.
This Stadium has a lot of potential & can be one of the best stadium in Europe if not the world with the original design cos it has character & authentic with the potential capacity of at least 90K, all it needs is an refurbished & some TLC.
Take Note: The Stadium Expansion Must Not Exceed the rail way track!
Man Utd 's Old Trafford 'The Super Bowl of Stadiums known as 'The Theatre of Dreams' is unique & a Colossal of a stadium.
Great job guys. Who needs a task force - submit this to get the plans rubber stamped
Andy Mitten - definition of top red.
Loved this episode. You guys are brilliant
its a tough one because the stadium is a mess and probably needs knocking down but i remember my mum and dad telling me about them watching charlton , law ,best , my mums fave player was martin buchan and my dad took me to OT for my first time in 78 when i was 4 years old . the memories i have watching robson , mcgrath , hughes ,whiteside at OT as a kid and then the fergie years that gave me some of the best times of my life ( 99 ) i couldn't bare to see OT knocked down so maybe build another stadium on the car parks and keep OT for the youth teams and the girls team but don't knock it down i feel emotional just thinking of it . im so torn because we could build a 100 thousand stadium and give low ticket prices for the top tiers for the locals and we would probably fill it . andy you are a legend .
Brilliant. Thoughtful, intelligent, interesting. 10/10
A UEFA report released in February highlighted how Tottenham make more money per match than any other Premier League club and are only behind Paris Saint-Germain and Barcelona in the rankings.
Spurs generate just under £5million every matchday when gate revenue and money spent by fans is taken into account. The next Premier League side on the list is Arsenal, who earn around £4.2m on a matchday.
In comparison, and according to UEFA’s report, United generated £3.2m per matchday, despite having a larger capacity than the Emirates and Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.
Tottenham are also in London though. Unless you plan to completely ostracize local fans, you'd never be able to monetize Old Trafford to that degree I wouldn't think.
Andy and Matt = top tier 🔥
A wonderful and informative podcast.
Great watch!!!!!!!!!!
Brilliant listen.
Andy Mitten, well done for asking the presser question about the 61% win ratio last week. About time one of your lot mentioned that in a presser.
23:30 Matt's impression of United fans' morale ahead of the weekend was BRILLIANT! Exactly how it feels!
Just downsize Old Trafford and build the new stadium next to it (the club owns lots of local ground, so this is a possibility) use the old site for the academy, museum, and training purposes.
I drank every time Matt Slater said “right”…I have my kidney transplant booked for the end of next week 😅
Man Utd's Old Trafford Stadium known as 'The Theatre of Dreams' unique in style is the Super Bowl of stadiums & is potentially The best Stadium in the country, possibly the world.
The Owners were the ones who stop the Original project by using the excuse of the rail track complications. As stated previously, the design has already been laid out for completion of the stadium by original designers, to finish before the train track but the owners compromised by installed the 3rd tier cos the fans were complaining about the capacity at that time.
Alls well we like to think that once the owners depart or bring in SJR and his team we can address the layout for the necessary expansion of the South stand, East & West quadrant issue ASAP because Wembley or Man City's Etihad is to far to deal with the fan base, we're sure that can be achieved with minimal fuss, going by our walk around the stadium experience by observation.
Take Note: The Stadium Expansion should Not Exceed the rail track.
We feel in 18 month to 2 years copying Real Madrid project with the right people it can be achieved in line with progress on the pitch!
Worth a view, please share!
The ratcliffe input is what was needed the club needs the infrastructure in the footballing structure and then the stadium. The stadium won’t be done immediately it will take time during which the team will evolve with the new football structure
exactly. Its going to take 5 years to sort the squad out and 5 years to sort the stadium out. This isnt a ''we should be focussing on the squad instead'' debate. Both will happen side by side.
Great podcast guys think Andy with all his knowledge and red following should be on the stadium task Force along with Sir Jim ,gary neville Sebastian coe etc ???
There comes a time when patching it up has passed and won't work, your history will always be there move with the times to create new ones.
Why havent Barcelona, RM or Liverpool opted for a new stadium then? Redevelopment isnt "patching" OT.
No stadium on earth had the history of Wembley Stadium but when its age started to tell it was time for a complete rebuild. Patching up is false economy. Old Trafford needs replacing.
@@franghanexactly
i don't seem to recall those famous clubs being pressured to tear down their ancestral homes so why the fuck should we
@@vordman
that's not a good argument if anything that's a reminder for why you shouldn't be tearing this down
@@kurtpunchesthings2411 their stadiums weren't in ruin like OT is
Probably the best, definitely not the biggest, but certainly the most cost effective new build in recent history has to be Brighton! I think Chelsea have paid for it already. I know how hard Dick Knight had to fight for that BUT he 100% delivered!
wow what a trophy that is for Brighton
@@shutup2751 I'm going to take it you know the history and this is actually a serious comment.
One of these days, Andy‘s going to smile and I‘ll fall off my chair in shock. 😂
Andy mitten good journalism
Top podcast and totally agree with the comments from Andy and Matt but where is Carl?
Doesn't have the intellectual capacity to discuss this. No talk of veteran rappers here
@@filthypanda ,🤣🤣
I’m not hearing a rationale for a rebuild beyond match day revenue (which will be swallowed by debt for the build and then Glazer dividends).
I’ve been going for 40 years. I just want to watch a decent team which fights.
So a club in huge debt which can’t even sign any players at the moment will borrow billions to build a new stadium which won’t release any benefit for years?
Success on the pitch brings success off it. The glazers have had the opposite idea, and look where we are.
You can’t build a world class football operation and a new stadium at the same time when the club is such a mess.
We’re playing relegation level football statistically.
First things first. Win on the pitch and everything else follows.
I think either the redevelopment of OT building a new would've happened a lot sooner had the Glazers not spent so much money replenishing the squad (including sky high wages). Spend big on players (Di Maria, Lukaku, Pogba etc), who leave after a few years (and in Pogba's case don't even receive a fee after a contract rundown), spend big again on new players who also fail to perform. After this cycle it's no surprise there doesn't seem to be much money left to redevelop or build anew OT without new investment from Ineos or the UK government.
Hearing Andy talk about wearing Pakistan dress is so cute 😂
There's nothing wrong with the Old Trafford stadium that a bit if TLC won't cure. All it needs is the Upgrade of the Sir Bobby Charlton Stand & East & West quadrant to complete the original design & a Levelled Retractable New Roof + modern refurbishment of the rest of the stadium to warrant at least 90K capacity
Take Note: The stadium expansion MUST NOT exceed the rail track!
Please Share!
Yes
What capacity do you think a new stadium for Manchester United should hold,, I heard someone suggesting that it would be around 80 thousand which seems a bit low, reports of 130 thousand in waiting for seats. It would seem a bit pointless building a whole new stadium just for 5 thousand extra seats,, surely it should be 90 plus if they do decide to go ahead with a new stadium
New stadium isn’t only to upgrade capacity. OT lacks so many basic functions.
@@danielberry4765I agree but by doing a new stadium it's also an opportunity to maximise revenue, if United have a waiting list of 135 thousand for seats then technically you could do a 200 thousand seater stadium which obviously you wouldn't do but if they feel they could get a consistent gate of 100 thousand capacity that will massively inflate revenue which in the long term would benefit the club financially
No. But afaik they own enough land around the stadium, they could build a new Stadium and then either convert OT to a museum/similar, rent it out as a venue or use it as a backup stadium for youth - or all of the above
I'm like Andy in that I preferred improving the current Old Trafford but now I've changed to building a new stadium because it's better & can be used to bring in revenue. If only, there was a Wembley United could use so long & build the new stadium on the same piece of ground it's on now so we still have that nostalgic factor.
Absolutely, they should. It's like trying to fix your car, at some point it no longer makes economical sense to just change the parts and you should just get a brand new one.
Yes it's needed, also make sure the first team is locked in the team room when demolishing 😂
Mitten masterclass
if you renovate, you most likely keep the old name, BUT when you tear down and build a completely new stadium, you can get tens of millions of dollars from naming rights.....for instrance Bud Light Stadium or sell naming right to stands Bud Light Stand.
Need to build the next stadium in the world
Pity they can't rebuild a new Old Trafford in the image of the expanded refurbished Old Trafford. That way you would get a new stadium keeping the look. The Theatre Of Dreams is iconic..
People forget westhams stadium is really good to go because of Westfield which has loads of places to go eat if there was that by old Trafford instead of car parks it would be so much better
I want to keep Old Trafford but if we do decide to build a new stadium, Ineos are our best hope of getting a good replacement.
If you aren't sure who they are, do some research into the company.
Sir Jim is very good at employing the right people in the right places and bringing in other companies who are specialists.
Maybe I don’t understand team revenue enough but doesn’t ticket sales mean higher wage allowance?
Ticket sales are an increasingly small revenue driver compared to Commercial and TV Revenue. This is a new thing Matchday Income used to be #1
It’s clear we need the best of the best!
Build a new stadium at Old Trafford
Go all out with 100,000+ capacity, similar in scale to the new Camp Nou
Make it an all purpose venue
Retractable roof and pitch similar to the Bernabeu
It has to be an enviable venue.
Then downsize the current OT. Build a campus around the two stadia. Build hotels, offices, apartments , university / college campus around the old stadium to make it a destination in itself.
Great are u gonna pay for it?
@@filmgeschichte.tax payers apparently
@@filmgeschichte.equity £500m debt £1.5bn over 30 years for the stadium. Have QIA fund the rest of the property infrastructure as they wanted to.
Naming rights could be utilised smartly
Sponsor x Old Trafford being the obvious
@@filmgeschichte.Oil/Environmental disaster money will do no worries
@@j.s3300 same with arsenal, spurs, west ham, city and everton stadiums then. What is the issue? Oh, thats its MUFC. Special club i suppose.
Building a new stadium is very important and winning titles ,But we must not stand still at Man United ,Remember we have the biggest status at Manchester United
New stadium priority
Any body who says just redevelop OT is not thinking long term and how a new stadium can be the catalyst for future success.
Redeveloping Madrid's stadium is not the same as OT as the Bernabéu was built in 1944 whereas OT is as old as 1910. Bernabéu was already considered a leading world stadium prior to the rebuild, and not just down to its size, but the experience but OT is nowhere near that.
Redeveloping OT would not bring all the modern wishes of fans and ways to bring in extra money for the club as the infrastructure will unlikely be able to handle it. At some point in the next 50 years we will need to build a new stadium, might as well be now when there's a clear opportunity.
Build a new stadium 100%. Keep a portion of old Trafford for the memories, and if you really wanted to I’m sure there’s a way to transplant the current pitch all our legends played on into the new stadium.
Anyone with any doubts about possible public funding need only look into my local NFL team the Vikings and our US Bank stadium. The club and private entities paid $620m while the city of minneapolis and state of Minnesota covered their $500m through a city wide tax and a state run electronic pull tab lottery game (which was so successful the state and city were able to pay their agreed amount 23 years ahead of schedule)
Us bank stadium opened in 2016 is LOVED by the fans and is an architectural masterpiece, rated the best nfl stadium in 2023 by the athletic
If united and the city of Manchester can work out something similar it’s a win win for all parties but especially the people of Manchester
We need a world-class stadium, really. My gosh, it is not just about the ceiling. It's the all package. The toilets, my God, are horrendous. And of course, we need to talk about the stadium. It will take years to get it done anyway, whether we refurbish or build a new one.
Sofi Stadium is absolutely insane !!!
I work in Spinningfields and walk through the city centre, it’s become quite run down and frankly disgusting.
I was at everton game last week theres nothing at OT its grim.
They should have 100 seated stadium
We want an Expansion to approx 90K capacity, Modern refurbishment & a New Levelled Retractable Roof!
There's an completed stadium design on WHF!@UtdWesleyy with a comment stating: So apparently we are looking at an expansion of Old Trafford. It’s been talked about for years but put off because of the complications around the south section of the stadium but if we do manage to do it… 2 Tier SBC Capacity: 88,000+
We're sure that can be achieved with minimal fuss by observation cos its already laid out going by our walk around the stadium experience.
Take Note: The Stadium Expansion Must Not Exceed the railway track.
Worth a view, please share!
101999 capacity is a min requirement...
Retractable roof.
Retractable pitch.
360 degree screen
Massive single stand behind the goals.
Underground car park
Hotel in the stadium.
7 teir side stands.
Massive pub/function room/ theater 5 to 10000ish.
Museum.
A full on shopping mall.
A new train station.
A park outside.
Michelin star for the boxes.
Very very good food for the regular fans , pizza, burgers, fries chicken, pulled pork , you know the stuff.
Cheap tickets behind the goal one side for kids and under 21 and 25s.
Extended stretford end season ticket capacity.
More and more camera capabilities for the god damn var.
I've missed things probably but come on.
Safe standing.
125 k seat stadium tell them do it
101999 capacity is a min requirement...
Retractable roof.
Retractable pitch.
360 degree screen
Massive single stand behind the goals.
Underground car park
Hotel in the stadium.
7 teir side stands.
Massive pub/function room/ theater 5 to 10000ish.
Museum.
A full on shopping mall.
A new train station.
A park outside.
Michelin star for the boxes.
Very very good food for the regular fans , pizza, burgers, fries chicken, pulled pork , you know the stuff.
Cheap tickets behind the goal one side for kids and under 21 and 25s.
Extended stretford end season ticket capacity.
More and more camera capabilities for the god damn var.
I've missed things probably but come on.
Safe standing.
Yes. Sentiment should never get in the way of progress.
It’s got to be a new 100,000 capacity stadium. Sir Jim screams best in class to me so go build it.
Then downsize and upgrade OT for the academy/women’s teams. Why have one iconic stadium when you can have two?!
The cantilever stands look so dated these days. They'd look better if they levelled off at the height of the stand
Absolutely! We need a World class stadium and only fair that the tax payer and other Premier League clubs pay for it. Not fair that billionaire owners pay for it. Makes more sense to bulldoze the stadium at the cost of £1bn as opposed to refurbishing it for £100m.
Whilst we are at it would be good if the other Premier League clubs can subsidise new signings to help with FFP. Man Utd are the biggest and greatest team in history and they should be at the top.
Man City and Newcastle should not be able to buy their way to the top, they should be taxed to help subsidise us.
What ManUnited has over ManCity and most other Oil Clubs is the fact that they can fill any stadium. So it is a very smart idea to capitalise on that uniqueness by building a big stadium. Etihad cant even sell 55 thousand tickets at times. No matter how much oil money flows into it.
Pretty easy solution. Strip ot to being 10-15k
Make it the ladies and youth team stadium. Keeps the tradition and vibe of this is f*n man utd. That way OT still exists and is a dream for the ladies and youth team.
Build a state of the art stadium, 100k and intoxicating acoustics so that opposition can’t breathe playing in there because the atmosphere is bonkers. Ineos I’ll come work for free, hit me up.
As an American when he said “Manchester United is starting to look like Chicago” i was like oh crap is there ton of killin taking place lolololol use another city as your example broseph 😂
The Indiana Colts NFL stadium would look good in Manchester.
The foundation, plumbing and electrics are all 100 years old. Its just not practicable to rejuvenate it properly. A new stadium is the way to go. Yes Old Trafford holds memories of past glory but lets not become a club stuck in th past. Build a new stadium and fill it with new memories of glory.
New stadium with 101,999 capacity, downsize old trafford to an academy stadium keeping the historic features like the original tunnel.
If Ratcliffe can get a new stadium built with public money then it's a no brainer. Otherwise they will just give Very Old Trafford another lick of paint because there are enough loyal muppets to continue filling the ground despite the constant mediocre football (7 home defeats this season).
City have built a £200 million football academy, are making their stadium 63000 when it was under 50000, have built a huge concert arena and soon there will be a 380 bed hotel, a museum and a covered fanzone for 3000 supporters. They've just submitted a planning permission request to install 10 THOUSAND solar panels whilst Old Trafford has a leaky roof!
The lack of ambition at Very OT is well established, both on and off the pitch, and it will stay that way until the Glazers go.
Why can’t Ineos build a stadium and give back to the club for a million a season? Jim has already said that he is there for the legacy.
Must be new build and ste of the art
No renovate
How anyone can argue for tearing down Old Trafford is beyond me. Absolute Sacrilege. Renovating Old Trafford or the Camp Nou or the San Siro costs what it costs, to hell with the price.
What the hell was his point about Chicago and our buildings. I’m from Chicago, never been to Manchester we have plenty of areas that are beautiful places to visit or live; ok places to visit or live and places that are on the decline/abandon building areas; that’s no different than any other metropolitan city in any country.
The Avram Glazer stadium coming soon,,,,,,,
If knocking it down makes the most sense then get the bulldozers in. Wallowing in nostalgia gets you nowhere but the past.
Yeah they should knock it down and just focus on the clothing retail side of things.
N E V E R
Man utd new stadium new Trafford 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪
Nooooo! Revamp the existing stadium and spend the Money on new players and a new training Ground. Then when you have have completed this, then build a new stadium. Building a New stadium is like putting the cart before the Horse.
The Madrid stadium might be the best stadium in the world but god does it look lifeless and corporate. I like the aesthetic of Old Trafford far more than I like the aesthetic of the new Madrid stadium. Bumps and all.
Yes they should with ten hag and rashford still inside 😂
FSG - hired Klopp, Edwards (twice), Alonso, new stadium, training facilities, world class data analysis and training methods. Profitable club, Zero debt, Zero dividends, loads of trophies.
LFC fans - ''FSG OUT!!!!!!''
I'm not sure you guys have the brain cells to enter any LFC conversation, never mind any conversation about another club.
The stadium question is a business question you can't answer without lots of numbers in front of you To discuss it without a spreadsheet in front of you is just a waste of breath.
debt is good if you are making each year than you are paying back thats how you leverage debt into profit
yep and never rebuild it
knock down OT for wot? for more titles???
If they want to save a few quid invite Liverpool fans for the last game and we will help them
Skimming off YT with the adverts,Spinner Dump,i gave it 5 mins and got 3x 20 second adds,with very mediocre media content that said little.
ATB