LOl, I just got that joke. I really dig that tune, it just kinda fell out of my fingers. I always loved that Ray Harryhausen animation and I wanted to feature just her .. so I cut out all the live action stuff, she's the gold.
I would try the simple things first. Using a magnifying glass, I'd check all of the solder joints (especially where the jacks meet the board). And on the IC's that are socketed, I'd pull them and look for corrosion on the pins. It's good to see you back
I thought I had figured the DMA issue out when I saw corrosion on the jumper pins, (as well as replacing the jumper ) but nope, I did pull the 8 legged chip too and gave everything that made mechanical connections a proper spray etc, but the noise persists. I'll definitely give it a good examination again though, it's easy to miss things. Thanks for the ideas.
I ordered some sockets to try replacing some of the ICs to hopefully figure out what has failed, but I needed a bit of time before I returned to it to avoid getting too frustrated. I sure do love those Phillips chips.
I dont know hundred percent if this can help, but this sound card needs -5 volts (yes, negative 5 volts) and some computers power supplies doesnt have tthe -5v liine. Maybe not your case, but check it ut. I have the exact problem as you, my 1350b card hangs when i try to use it with sunnd blaster sounds and cms jumper enabled so there is a chance that the gal lis not compatible or the code of the gal is not the correct one? In vogons thread people had that issue and was solved years before by a guy who completelly reverse engenieered the code, so that could be the problem too. Hope something of this could help
You are right, it definitely does use -5 volts. And yes my power supply has -5. I used the Necroware updated code for the Gal so yes it's not the code giving me an issue. Typically if the card isn't supplied with -5 the output sound weak and thin, whereas my output is perfect. I have yet to attack that card and see if I can figure out what is causing my weird issues but I think it's definitely coming up soon. I suspect it's one of the chips giving me grief, I bought sockets to experiment with that. I appreciate your input.
Exactly, it has line out and that would be a beautiful thing to have, the noise is greatly reduced on that version. I was hoping that dude would send me one, to write songs with, but my phone ain't ringing yet :)
@@esc2dos that thing is $124 usd shipped to canada, plus tax, under $200cdn. same price as 10 snark barker pcbs still needing lots of parts. thats a fork in the road.
@@r4z4m4t4z Indeed, I had a look at the Snark Barker again days ago and wow is that a pile of components, would have to be very careful assembling that puppy. I really love C/MS now, need to fix my 1350b before I blow any dough on anything else.
Squeel sounded like power supply check the grounding circuit throughout you chassis paint preventing power supply from being properly grounded to case maybe
That was one of the first things I guessed too, but after trying another PS it made no difference, the noise was only slightly less when it tried it in my Pentium 233 MMx machine, but the DMA issue was still giving me errors. That's what lead me to accepting it was the card itself.
@@esc2dos creative is also cheap with their pcb designs they have a very small ground plane maybe try adding a copper ground wire to increase the ground plane mass from pcb to chassis
@@christopherdecorte1599 That was a disappointing thing to find out, compared to the huge amount of copper used in the Gravis cards. I think if I can figure out what is causing the Dma issue most of the noise will be dealt with, but yes even aluminum/copper shielding around the card perhaps to quiet it down. My Sbpro has a lot of noise too ( no where as loud as the 2.0 card currently ) they clearly assumed we were going to use those terrible beige speakers with them and we wouldn't notice the noise. I'll probably experiment with noise reduction in future videos. Thanks for your suggestions.
@@esc2dos the dma issue does suck but it might be a configuration issue I noticed couple jumpers on the card I remember the auto configuration from sound blaster driver wasn't always the best you may need to manually set then in the config.sys and add the relevant setting to the autoexec.bat file. I always wondered if bigger filter caps would help with the noise of these cards but I wouldn't know what an appropriate value to try would be.
@@christopherdecorte1599 I tried ever combination of DMA jumper setting, I even tried every IRQ to see if that would change the DMA error as well as editing the autoexec.bat and config.sys and nothing made any difference. The fact that it acts exactly the same regardless of the computer, led me to assuming chip failure of some sort. Also.. the midi input issue is another very peculiar aspect of this failed card. I'm very familiar with resolving quirky retro computer oddities ( if I could only have all those hours back) but this card threw a wrench in the works. Bigger filter caps .. I'll add that to my noise reduction experimentation.
I thought all old cheap soundcards sounded like this.. I remember listening to the squeals of my disk drive seeks and mouse cursor movements on all manner of hardware. I think the only way to stop it is to build a box to shield your soundcard and stop it acting as an antenna for all your PCs other components emissions
I agree they are very noisy but this card is ice pick in the temple noisy. I'm definitely going to try reducing the overall noise once I solve the DMA issue.
I agree with a few of the fellows below. I think christopherdecorte1599 maaay be on to something with the squeal being a grounding issue. Also, recapping is a common 'shotgun' approach, similar to the Parts Cannon stuff that Rainman Ray and Eric O (South Main Auto) talk about on their car repair channels -- and they deride such an approach for good reason! It rarely works, and it often introduces new problems, especially if done poorly. Here, FWIW, I think it was just a NOP, it didn't do anything one way or the other. Ultimately, though, the solution is going to be either (a) taking the card to someone who can help, or (b) doing the IRL videogame grinding of learning some electronics stuff. I can tell you what a 74LS245 does, why it's called a 74LS245 and not eg a 74HC245, etc, but I can't read the datasheet and understand it for you, and that's where your ultimate answers lie -- you need to be able to work out what each chip does, why it's there, what its part of the picture does. If you can work out the functions of each chip are, and ROUGHLY how they interconnect, at least in your head, you don't really need a full schematic -- you have enough from that that you can see where things might be going wrong. From there, I'll make the same recommendation I always do -- don't use an oscilloscope or a logic analyzer, but rather a much cheaper doohickey called a Logic Probe. It's very simple -- it has a light and a tone for 'high' signals and a different light and tone for 'low' signals. High (VCC, usually +5v) is high, low (0v ground) is low, floating is both at once, don't use it for analog stuff because you'll bugger it up. Quinn Dunki aka Blondihacks uses a logic probe for troubleshooting (in fact, I own the same one she does, because I asked her for a recommendation) and look at what she's built. It's a $17 "Elenco" model from Jef Bezos' lil corner mini-mart. You don't need $60+ equipment (yes, I know there are $30 o-scopes, they're awful) to troubleshoot, you need a cheap-but-good multimeter (Sparkfun Electronics' $15 one is awesome) and a logic probe. But all of that is useless if you don't know what you're listening for or looking for. You need to know what things DO. You can't tell whether that GAL is good or not unless you understand its place in the circuit. So, time to grind. I'm lucky, I learned in the 1990s and 2000s when you could still get those old Forrest Mims books at Radio Shack. You can still get bootleg copies on CD, I don't recommend it -- and I WON'T recommend it! -- but it's a means to an end. Older electronics textbooks will also be much more helpful than newer ones. I have a couple of those myself... by far my favorite is "Understanding Electronics, 3rd Edition" by R H Warring and G Randy Slone. It's from 1989 and still has a bit of tube stuff in it! You can still get it on Amazon if you're willing to buy used... ISBN-10 0830693440 or ISBN-13 978-0830693443. There's also community college courses, they're cheap enough, but they take time. Regardless, the ultimate answer is: you're shooting blind until you get the knowledge you know you don't have. Learn yourself some digital electronics, learn how to read datasheets, and then get to work -- in THAT order! BTW... I love the little gimmick that the intro changes with each series ;) that's awesome. Also, nice work with the music stuff. I wish I could make music! I'm an artist of a different sort, though, so there's that.
Thank you Laser that's all good info, I agree replacing all the capacitors is not always a good idea, especially due to the quality issue of newer parts. I only did it because I was floundering and if one was leaking that bad I assumed the others must be on their way. But after recapping the card it made no difference to anything, so I feel pretty confident that I have not made things worse. Regarding the grounding issue as I stated already, that made no difference when I used the same card on various machines. I have mentioned prior in my videos that I have a "mechanical" approach to repairing these old devices, most of the repairs consist of physical damage and obvious leakages. When it comes to understanding the current flow from chip to chip, I am guessing, but the only way I'm going to learn is by getting advice, experimentation, and reading. This is why I asked for help. Now that I have a bit of an audience I may just be able to get a tip to lead me down the right path. Someone else has most likely had this DMA error and fixed it. I do own one of those cheap 30 dollar oscilloscopes and it may be garbage but it does give me a better picture of the activity on the chip legs. I will most likely use it to compare the outputs on that CT1336 chip with a known good 1336. I've shown my multimeter on this channel before. I have been fixing things my entire life, I am obsessed with it. Not having a college Electronics education is hindering but many of the people on youtube say the same thing, they learned by experience. That last thing I would do is send this card away to have someone else fix it.. that's giving up. I will drive myself crazy trying to understand it before I would do that. Regarding my intros. I'm glad you feel that way. I don't want to be predictable, I fast forward through most people's intros because I have seen them countless times. I keep them short and I hope they are a surprise rather than a chore to sit through. Music is my life and I hope everyone can enjoy even just one of the many songs I have composed. We all have a song in us, you just need to find a way to get it out. You always give me a lot of food for thought and I appreciate the time you take. Cheers.
@@esc2dos I'm self-taught, too, but I had (again) the advantage of materials you can't get because they're out of print, and not everything is on the Internet (for better or worse). Thing is, I'm absolute crap at troubleshooting. Why? Because that very thing I told you to do -- get an idea of what each thing does, what part it has to play -- I have a very hard time doing that. Thus, I'm kind of floundering around in the dark until I stumble into and trip over the actual problem like it's a cat at the top of a staircase. I know all too well where you are. That's why I'm telling you to do the work to get the heck out of that place, because I know it far better than I wish I did. Get the knowledge, do it right. Every time I don't, I'm chasing red herrings like they're a car and I'm a junkyard dog (except that cars tend to outrun dogs). Someday I'll buckle down and do the same thing. It's not like I don't know I need to... Don't be me. I suck eggs. You can and should be better than that. My 'songs' are visual. I'm a traditional-media artist -- I draw. I'm also one of those weird furry types, so I guess I'm kind of a disappointment in _multiple_ ways. Who knew? ( :P )
@@laserhawk64 I pay close attention to the logical process that Adrian Black goes through, and Necroware. They are great teachers. Going down the wrong path is more than just an electronics problem, it's just like this life we live. Watching those guys systematically trace the problem to the root is magical. I've watched those guys suck a few eggs too, I think we all get caught in "gumption traps" ( from "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance") it's our brain trying to find order where it doesn't exist. I know my limitations and I want to conquer them, but it takes time and a great deal of failure when you're auto-didactic. But a great quote I heard was if you haven't failed at something then you didn't try hard enough. So here's to Failure and banging our head against the wall. More important is not giving up. Let's keep on keepin on. Oh and, on the scale of things.. I'm sure people would find it weirder that we are obsessed with obsolete computers from the early 90s than wearing animal costumes. Peace.
@@esc2dos Works for me! I hope we get to hear more of your music, BTW :3 and maybe someday I can show you some of my art. GL with the troubleshooting, yo. Kick some tail!
Eyes of MeduSAA slow clap! i mean the noise not the infection.
LOl, I just got that joke. I really dig that tune, it just kinda fell out of my fingers. I always loved that Ray Harryhausen animation and I wanted to feature just her .. so I cut out all the live action stuff, she's the gold.
I would try the simple things first. Using a magnifying glass, I'd check all of the solder joints (especially where the jacks meet the board). And on the IC's that are socketed, I'd pull them and look for corrosion on the pins. It's good to see you back
I thought I had figured the DMA issue out when I saw corrosion on the jumper pins, (as well as replacing the jumper ) but nope, I did pull the 8 legged chip too and gave everything that made mechanical connections a proper spray etc, but the noise persists. I'll definitely give it a good examination again though, it's easy to miss things. Thanks for the ideas.
I can offer you nothing on your problems other then a virtual motivational shoulder massage 😂
I ordered some sockets to try replacing some of the ICs to hopefully figure out what has failed, but I needed a bit of time before I returned to it to avoid getting too frustrated. I sure do love those Phillips chips.
I dont know hundred percent if this can help, but this sound card needs -5 volts (yes, negative 5 volts) and some computers power supplies doesnt have tthe -5v liine. Maybe not your case, but check it ut. I have the exact problem as you, my 1350b card hangs when i try to use it with sunnd blaster sounds and cms jumper enabled so there is a chance that the gal lis not compatible or the code of the gal is not the correct one? In vogons thread people had that issue and was solved years before by a guy who completelly reverse engenieered the code, so that could be the problem too. Hope something of this could help
You are right, it definitely does use -5 volts. And yes my power supply has -5. I used the Necroware updated code for the Gal so yes it's not the code giving me an issue. Typically if the card isn't supplied with -5 the output sound weak and thin, whereas my output is perfect. I have yet to attack that card and see if I can figure out what is causing my weird issues but I think it's definitely coming up soon. I suspect it's one of the chips giving me grief, I bought sockets to experiment with that. I appreciate your input.
i would like a snark barker, you?
Yep. that and the Adlib kit and the GUS and the new 1350B .. I want 'em all
@@esc2dos is the new 1350b this one: 8-bit ISA Sound Blaster 1.5 clone with C/MS: from sweden?
Exactly, it has line out and that would be a beautiful thing to have, the noise is greatly reduced on that version. I was hoping that dude would send me one, to write songs with, but my phone ain't ringing yet :)
@@esc2dos that thing is $124 usd shipped to canada, plus tax, under $200cdn. same price as 10 snark barker pcbs still needing lots of parts. thats a fork in the road.
@@r4z4m4t4z Indeed, I had a look at the Snark Barker again days ago and wow is that a pile of components, would have to be very careful assembling that puppy. I really love C/MS now, need to fix my 1350b before I blow any dough on anything else.
Squeel sounded like power supply check the grounding circuit throughout you chassis paint preventing power supply from being properly grounded to case maybe
That was one of the first things I guessed too, but after trying another PS it made no difference, the noise was only slightly less when it tried it in my Pentium 233 MMx machine, but the DMA issue was still giving me errors. That's what lead me to accepting it was the card itself.
@@esc2dos creative is also cheap with their pcb designs they have a very small ground plane maybe try adding a copper ground wire to increase the ground plane mass from pcb to chassis
@@christopherdecorte1599 That was a disappointing thing to find out, compared to the huge amount of copper used in the Gravis cards. I think if I can figure out what is causing the Dma issue most of the noise will be dealt with, but yes even aluminum/copper shielding around the card perhaps to quiet it down. My Sbpro has a lot of noise too ( no where as loud as the 2.0 card currently ) they clearly assumed we were going to use those terrible beige speakers with them and we wouldn't notice the noise. I'll probably experiment with noise reduction in future videos. Thanks for your suggestions.
@@esc2dos the dma issue does suck but it might be a configuration issue I noticed couple jumpers on the card I remember the auto configuration from sound blaster driver wasn't always the best you may need to manually set then in the config.sys and add the relevant setting to the autoexec.bat file. I always wondered if bigger filter caps would help with the noise of these cards but I wouldn't know what an appropriate value to try would be.
@@christopherdecorte1599 I tried ever combination of DMA jumper setting, I even tried every IRQ to see if that would change the DMA error as well as editing the autoexec.bat and config.sys and nothing made any difference. The fact that it acts exactly the same regardless of the computer, led me to assuming chip failure of some sort. Also.. the midi input issue is another very peculiar aspect of this failed card. I'm very familiar with resolving quirky retro computer oddities ( if I could only have all those hours back) but this card threw a wrench in the works. Bigger filter caps .. I'll add that to my noise reduction experimentation.
I thought all old cheap soundcards sounded like this.. I remember listening to the squeals of my disk drive seeks and mouse cursor movements on all manner of hardware. I think the only way to stop it is to build a box to shield your soundcard and stop it acting as an antenna for all your PCs other components emissions
I agree they are very noisy but this card is ice pick in the temple noisy. I'm definitely going to try reducing the overall noise once I solve the DMA issue.
I agree with a few of the fellows below. I think christopherdecorte1599 maaay be on to something with the squeal being a grounding issue. Also, recapping is a common 'shotgun' approach, similar to the Parts Cannon stuff that Rainman Ray and Eric O (South Main Auto) talk about on their car repair channels -- and they deride such an approach for good reason! It rarely works, and it often introduces new problems, especially if done poorly. Here, FWIW, I think it was just a NOP, it didn't do anything one way or the other.
Ultimately, though, the solution is going to be either (a) taking the card to someone who can help, or (b) doing the IRL videogame grinding of learning some electronics stuff. I can tell you what a 74LS245 does, why it's called a 74LS245 and not eg a 74HC245, etc, but I can't read the datasheet and understand it for you, and that's where your ultimate answers lie -- you need to be able to work out what each chip does, why it's there, what its part of the picture does. If you can work out the functions of each chip are, and ROUGHLY how they interconnect, at least in your head, you don't really need a full schematic -- you have enough from that that you can see where things might be going wrong.
From there, I'll make the same recommendation I always do -- don't use an oscilloscope or a logic analyzer, but rather a much cheaper doohickey called a Logic Probe. It's very simple -- it has a light and a tone for 'high' signals and a different light and tone for 'low' signals. High (VCC, usually +5v) is high, low (0v ground) is low, floating is both at once, don't use it for analog stuff because you'll bugger it up. Quinn Dunki aka Blondihacks uses a logic probe for troubleshooting (in fact, I own the same one she does, because I asked her for a recommendation) and look at what she's built. It's a $17 "Elenco" model from Jef Bezos' lil corner mini-mart. You don't need $60+ equipment (yes, I know there are $30 o-scopes, they're awful) to troubleshoot, you need a cheap-but-good multimeter (Sparkfun Electronics' $15 one is awesome) and a logic probe.
But all of that is useless if you don't know what you're listening for or looking for. You need to know what things DO. You can't tell whether that GAL is good or not unless you understand its place in the circuit. So, time to grind. I'm lucky, I learned in the 1990s and 2000s when you could still get those old Forrest Mims books at Radio Shack. You can still get bootleg copies on CD, I don't recommend it -- and I WON'T recommend it! -- but it's a means to an end. Older electronics textbooks will also be much more helpful than newer ones. I have a couple of those myself... by far my favorite is "Understanding Electronics, 3rd Edition" by R H Warring and G Randy Slone. It's from 1989 and still has a bit of tube stuff in it! You can still get it on Amazon if you're willing to buy used... ISBN-10 0830693440 or ISBN-13 978-0830693443. There's also community college courses, they're cheap enough, but they take time.
Regardless, the ultimate answer is: you're shooting blind until you get the knowledge you know you don't have. Learn yourself some digital electronics, learn how to read datasheets, and then get to work -- in THAT order!
BTW... I love the little gimmick that the intro changes with each series ;) that's awesome. Also, nice work with the music stuff. I wish I could make music! I'm an artist of a different sort, though, so there's that.
Thank you Laser that's all good info, I agree replacing all the capacitors is not always a good idea, especially due to the quality issue of newer parts. I only did it because I was floundering and if one was leaking that bad I assumed the others must be on their way. But after recapping the card it made no difference to anything, so I feel pretty confident that I have not made things worse. Regarding the grounding issue as I stated already, that made no difference when I used the same card on various machines.
I have mentioned prior in my videos that I have a "mechanical" approach to repairing these old devices, most of the repairs consist of physical damage and obvious leakages. When it comes to understanding the current flow from chip to chip, I am guessing, but the only way I'm going to learn is by getting advice, experimentation, and reading. This is why I asked for help. Now that I have a bit of an audience I may just be able to get a tip to lead me down the right path. Someone else has most likely had this DMA error and fixed it.
I do own one of those cheap 30 dollar oscilloscopes and it may be garbage but it does give me a better picture of the activity on the chip legs. I will most likely use it to compare the outputs on that CT1336 chip with a known good 1336. I've shown my multimeter on this channel before.
I have been fixing things my entire life, I am obsessed with it. Not having a college Electronics education is hindering but many of the people on youtube say the same thing, they learned by experience. That last thing I would do is send this card away to have someone else fix it.. that's giving up. I will drive myself crazy trying to understand it before I would do that.
Regarding my intros. I'm glad you feel that way. I don't want to be predictable, I fast forward through most people's intros because I have seen them countless times. I keep them short and I hope they are a surprise rather than a chore to sit through. Music is my life and I hope everyone can enjoy even just one of the many songs I have composed. We all have a song in us, you just need to find a way to get it out.
You always give me a lot of food for thought and I appreciate the time you take. Cheers.
@@esc2dos I'm self-taught, too, but I had (again) the advantage of materials you can't get because they're out of print, and not everything is on the Internet (for better or worse). Thing is, I'm absolute crap at troubleshooting. Why? Because that very thing I told you to do -- get an idea of what each thing does, what part it has to play -- I have a very hard time doing that. Thus, I'm kind of floundering around in the dark until I stumble into and trip over the actual problem like it's a cat at the top of a staircase.
I know all too well where you are. That's why I'm telling you to do the work to get the heck out of that place, because I know it far better than I wish I did. Get the knowledge, do it right. Every time I don't, I'm chasing red herrings like they're a car and I'm a junkyard dog (except that cars tend to outrun dogs). Someday I'll buckle down and do the same thing. It's not like I don't know I need to...
Don't be me. I suck eggs. You can and should be better than that.
My 'songs' are visual. I'm a traditional-media artist -- I draw. I'm also one of those weird furry types, so I guess I'm kind of a disappointment in _multiple_ ways. Who knew? ( :P )
@@laserhawk64 I pay close attention to the logical process that Adrian Black goes through, and Necroware. They are great teachers. Going down the wrong path is more than just an electronics problem, it's just like this life we live. Watching those guys systematically trace the problem to the root is magical. I've watched those guys suck a few eggs too, I think we all get caught in "gumption traps" ( from "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance") it's our brain trying to find order where it doesn't exist. I know my limitations and I want to conquer them, but it takes time and a great deal of failure when you're auto-didactic. But a great quote I heard was if you haven't failed at something then you didn't try hard enough. So here's to Failure and banging our head against the wall. More important is not giving up. Let's keep on keepin on. Oh and, on the scale of things.. I'm sure people would find it weirder that we are obsessed with obsolete computers from the early 90s than wearing animal costumes. Peace.
@@esc2dos Works for me!
I hope we get to hear more of your music, BTW :3 and maybe someday I can show you some of my art.
GL with the troubleshooting, yo. Kick some tail!