Evil Isn't a Problem If There's No Free Will
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ม.ค. 2022
- It's cheating theologically to say; "well, God shared all his other attributes, like intelligence and creativity and emotions, but he didn't share this one. We don't have free will." Well, you cheat. On what basis are you going to withhold this one and accept all the other ones? Check this out!
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#Bible #Theology #MichaelHeiser
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If you're a parent, you can understand a little more easily why he doesn't wipe us out when we sin...and what he feels when we choose righteousness. ❤
Yes. As a parent, I felt I've became more enlightened about God through raising my own child.
Timely to come across this at this particular time. An adult child purposefully chose evil recently. I was so disappointed when she told me. What broke my heart was her justifying it. I keep apologizing to God and praying for her and for the unknown stranger who was effected by it.
@@stompthedragon4010 😔 i feel your pain. I'm so sorry.
@@stompthedragon4010 I'm sorry to hear about this as well. I will pray for you.
@@headlinenewsrant5134 thank you.
You make sense, that’s what missing in many churches and that’s why many Christians are frustrated
You aren't kidding. I love Mike because he's not beholden to a certain denominational creed or system, he's just faithful to the text.
Or connected to 5o1c3
Do what the government tells him to do. God forbid 🤔
If God has decreed that Dr. Heiser dies of cancer of the pancreas, who are we to argue with God?. The soul that sins dies, it is appointed for man die and afterwards comes the judgment. All of us have a date with death. Fallen man wants to be in…..control. God is at the center of the universe, not us
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 My goodness. How cold. I'm positive Dr. Heiser wants to live a little longer and be with his family. Have some respect for God's sake. You guys get so sanctimonious and weird, it pushes people away from Christ.
@@78LedHead don’t engage them, that’s exactly what they want, it is impossible for someone like Dr. Michael Heiser not to have haters, they are a sign of how impactful he is, they are here by choice.
I'm praying daily for Dr Heiser. I hope to hear a good report. 🙏
Praying to…..who? What if it is God’s will for Michael to die of cancer?. What if God does not answer that prayer? Does God have Sovereignty over His creatures?. God is not our friendly genie in a bottle, ready to grant us ALL prayers.
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 Excuse me, we should pray to at least see what God does with it. Stop being so negative.
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 Go away troll. God explicitly tells us to pray all throughout scripture. Your pharisaical mindset is exactly what the Messiah worked to expose. Repent & believe.
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 The Lord wants to be in a personal relationship with His children and thus wants us to come to him in prayer. We know He has our best interests at heart, regardless of how a given situation is resolved. We trust Him.
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 -> I understand your point. Something you may be missing though. We in the flesh should be practicing prayer to live Holy and not of the world. People that are of the world we know from scripture are enmity against the most high. 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:4 KJV. It's easy to become disillusioned because obedient Christianity is not an easy road to follow. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV. Have a blessed day ! †
‘God comes to the man and the woman in their sin’. Praise Him. Everlasting love He is.
Amen!!!
It’s this simple:
Free Will is the only reason why moral responsibility exists.
No Free Will = No Moral Responsibility.
You can have both or neither. But you cannot have one without the other. It’s a serious epistemological breakdown otherwise.
So many Christians now are drawn to TULIP: they can't see that God's sovereign choice to give creatures in his image choice makes him greater, not lesser.
Fate and free will can exist simultaneously. We view fate as a linear line. I would say that fate looks more like a road atlas. Yes, you can choose to go down any road, but those roads have already been mapped out. Your life is a “choose your own adventure” game.
Except that is not what is being taught by "predestination" Calvinism. It literally teaches that our sinful choices are appointed by God. It places the blame for sin on God rather than human choice because it teaches that we have no free will.
This is how I think about it as well. The end point of the journey is God's will, and no matter the path we take, or who we influence, or who influences us along the journey, His plan is fulfilled in the end. It's mind-blowing how we cant even begin to comprehend the omniscience of an eternal and perfect being.
When the epoch of man is over, God will be fully and certainly established in His position as the one who deserves ultimate control, after we all get our opportunity for o mess things up, and he cleans it up and restores us to His fellowship, those who believe that is.
Faith……is a gift from God; without it, we cannot believe. God chooses people into salvation. He gets all the glory. Fallen humanity gets zero
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 God has made salvation available to all. Choose you this day whom you will serve. Sometimes God utilizes people against their fallen will, but they were not lost, they were used for their purpose. God will work it all together for his purposes and he will allow the randomness of man…that is how awesome God is, he can do that
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 God bless Israel
In revelation we are to b Kings and Priest... never Kno, maybe have us of Elohim in other galaxies
To continue being as Him, with his attributes
@@jaelzaker9884 we will have purpose infinity more fulfilling than this epoch. But I reject Mormonism. There is only one I Am and only one universe.
Without free will it is impossible to have a meaningful relationship with anyone. Relationships that have meaning involve choice. My wife chose me, I chose her. This freedom to choose or reject makes our relationship meaningful.
You can have all the free will you want. Actually, I thank God for giving me my wife.
Make sense to have free will , much like what medical community says about " informed consent" giving the patient the RISK and BENEFITS of the what the pt is about to undergo. And then proceeds with respect based on the info before him. God has same criteria otherwise he would not have given us the bible. In the garden God gave it to them personally. How cool is that lol and still the rest is we read in chapter 3 of Genesis lol.
God says to us "renew" our minds. Our choice to renew or not. But the info is there. But then God also says "God is not mock we'll reap what we sow" etc etc 🤔🙏
Adam and Eve were in the innocent state. We all descend from them…..after they sinned. Thus, we’ve inherited their sinful nature. Our sinful nature preclude us from choosing God for salvation. That is why God (Who is Sovereign) Choses people into salvation. We, due to our hampered sinful nature, will always chose sin. All the glory to God.
See, I would say it is impossible to have a meaningful relationship without determinism. I chose my wife beCAUSE I came to love her and find her beautiful. There is a CAUSAL relationship between my finding her beautiful and my love for her and my choosing of her. It isn’t random… it is determined by something.
@@brentonstanfield5198 You actually can't make choices in determinism.... That's the point of determinism. Your life is determined by externalities. Cause and effect is not determinism.
I think I recall saying "God put himself first in the same way we choose to put ourselves first." It's not really dodging the question because we are imperfect while God is perfect.
Man is completely responsible AND God is completely sovereign. Both are clearly taught in Scripture. The texts and passages are not difficult to find. This is a tension which exists, and for which we will fully understand when we cross to the other side.
If God were not totally sovereign, He would cease to be God.
@Ann Watkins
The only tension seems to exist in the definition of “sovereignty”.
Have you ever thought about this, though? You know how it says God FORGETS our sin? I think there are things that God CHOOSES not to know. He CHOOSES not to cheat. Michael can also show that even though God has foreknowledge of an event, it doesn't necessitate predestination. We can still change the outcome if we make the correct choice, such as David leaving Keilah before Saul and his troops surround the city.
I love this dude of God.
There is no such thing as a “man” of God. All of us have fallen short of the glory of God
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 what are you getting out of this tantrum?
Hey Mike it’s Joshua thanks for all those books you signed for me I got them from Todd I’m so thankful brother and we have you lifted up in prayer 🙏.
Wow that really encouraged me thank you Dr Heiser!
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I believe the story of Noah and the ark shows us that God cannot wipe out *all* evil on this earth without wiping out *all* human life on this earth.
dr mikael you always illuminate me with your teachings .Thanks may the Lord bless you and your offspring...
Vean también este video con Subtítulos en Español en nuestro canal de habla hispana
th-cam.com/video/7tnAkwaiZLQ/w-d-xo.html
Correct, the fact evil continuously evolves into new forms of evil, proves controlled will doesn't exist.
It also proves evolution theory doesn't exist.
Another point is that immoral atheists and evildoers that hate God pretend it's a personal attack against themselves that their conviction is directed as per ad hominem.
The Holy Spirit does that continuously based on free will choice from A Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with criticism of any specific atheistic agnostic religious person.
Dr. What is stopping us from using our freewill to also destroy the world to come? Thanks in advance.
@@JrealD Oh we as Christians have no power to destroy, only Christ. It also says that He does it through righteous judgement. So we can only judge what is remaining.
Christ destroys what is to be removed.
God bless
@@JrealD that is a very good question, and i ask myself the same as i look forward to the age to come. I only hope when as paul says we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, that we can somehow surrender most of that freewill going forward.
otherwise if just one man could wreck everything, and it didnt take them long, obviously within 9 months, then what about thousands or millions.... yikes. The full free will concept is still sound though.
@@shadowlands8490 I think perhaps you have misunderstood me.
Freewill given to Adam caused our ruin. And humans are free beings.
In the restored world, how sure are we not to use our freewill to make same bad choices that will wreck things.
Now my best answer to that, (though I still need people's thoughts) ;
1. Devil is bound and judge so he doesn't go about causing problems.
2. The redemption of our physical bodies will be immaculate. Without sinful tendencies. It cannot sin.
Just like Christ wasn't of Adam seed, so his nature was different and he wasn't convinced in sin so He could redeem. I think therefore, the nature we would be given would overcome sinful tendencies.
The only problem is don't we have the choice to sin if tempted? Just like christ too was tempted?
3. Final thought is to give up freewill or knowledge of evil wiped.
Maybe in this world we are meant to exercise our choice, having recognised Christ and followed him, we give consent to be lead into a new world where we cannot ever sin, and to achieve that is to reset awareness.
I need answers. Thanks.
I would LOVE to see the entirety of that lecture. I have lots of friends who are Calvinists, and while I care about them, I disagree with their perception of both God and Man, and this seems like the lection is an excellent biblical tear down of the doctrine of Total Depravity - among other petals of TULIP.
Calvinists truly think God is so petty he chooses Taco Bell over KFC for you at dinner. They believe God Almighty, who is sickened with sin, allows little children to be sex trafficked for some purpose of good unbeknownst to anyone with a brain.
I am a ZERO point Calvinist. Common sense itself destroys the TULIP. We serve the Most High, not a man named John Calvin or Martin Luther.
@@78LedHead as a Calvinist for the last 16 years, I can say with certainty that this is not what we believe. We do not believe that God somehow chooses KFC over Taco Bell for us or anything of that sort. We are not robots and we do believe in free will. We believe that our free will is limited to our nature though. We have the free will to choose KFC, but as a man by nature I cannot choose to get pregnant. It's not my nature.
@@78LedHead the god you're describing that you believe in allows sex trafficking for what purpose? Because his is too weak to stop it? Because he hates them? What is it exactly?
Pax Romana, most people don't properly understand what we mean by total depravity. Could I ask what you think that it means?
Faith is a GIFT of God. Without it, sinful man cannot believe. God choses people into salvation, sinful man cannot chose God since man’s nature is fallen and will always chose to sin. The Doctrine of Election is Biblical. All the glory to God, sinful man gets ZERO credit. Adam and Eve were in an innocent state, just as Heiser reiterated (actuall God’s Word says it). Once they sinned, their nature changed and would always gravitate away from God. We are descendants of Adam and Eve…..after they sinned, inheriting their fallen nature. God choses people into salvation (Predestined), man will always REJECT God (fallen state), The Pharisees always fought Jesus. They knew the Law. But because they did not believed in the Shepherd of Israel, they did not obtain salvation. As a matter of fact Jesus calls them a brood of vipers, Satan being their father since they are murderers (Paul stone Stephen) before God CHOSE Paul as God’s servant, Paul himself says so, calling himself the chief of sinners. To God be all the Glory. I am a follower of the Scriptures, not Calvin nor Heiser
Mike your the man! Hope all is well, blessings from Ireland.
I thank you, love and pray for you 💜🙏
Nailed it Mike!
Wow.. thank you ...great explanation..bless.
Great video as always 😎
God, thank you for Dr. Heiser! Please heal your servant so he can continue to destroy the gates of Hell in your name!
Thank you Heiser for taking the mystery out of the Infinite God and placing it in a box with your finite brain.
Something God said to me one day that I feel you too should hear...
“ You’re like a cool refreshing drink in the middle of a dry desert land !”!
God talks to you ? How does his voice sound like ?
Finally, someone who has articulated my thoughts about freewill.
I should have read the response before posting my own. I pretty much repeated your. :)
Man’s hampered nature due to original sin, precludes him from choosing God for salvation. God choses people into salvation. Faith is a gift from God. Those of us who believe, have been predestined unto salvation. God gets all the glory, we get ZERO credit
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 I will disagree with some of the notes. Original sin separated us from God but that is not the same as man being born to reject God. God does choose man but we are also able to share the Gospel which opens it up to anyone. I agree that faith is a gift. Grace is a gift. But just because we can choose does not eliminate God getting the credit. I have never met any true believer who thought that he chose to be saved. Salvation is an admission of our sin and God's mercy and Christ as LORD. Jesus said, "Light has come into the world but people loved darkness instead of light" i.e., men chose sin.
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 no. You are spreading heresies by saying this and commiting impiety against God. You are making God out to be evil for God to decree evil acts upon man. That is the greatest wickedest thing you can do.
Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. Therefore if you say It is not true, that some are by nature good, and others bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God. But glory and honour, he says, to every one that does good. God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.
2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it - some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.
3. For this reason the Lord also said, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:16 And, Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares. Luke 21:34 And, Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and you like men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He comes and knocks, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He comes, shall find so doing. Luke 12:35-36 And again, The servant who knows his Lord's will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:47 And, Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46 And again, But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delays, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. Luke 12:45-46; Matthew 24:48-51 All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.
4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man's power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient; 1 Corinthians 6:12 referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect all things are lawful, God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] not expedient pointing out that we should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness, 1 Peter 2:16 for this is not expedient. And again he says, Speak every man truth with his neighbour. Ephesians 4:25 And, Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks. Ephesians 4:29 And, For you were sometimes darkness, but now are you light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but you have been washed, but you have been sanctified in the name of our Lord. 1 Corinthians 6:11 If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 Thank you for letting God's word just be God's word rather it makes human sense or not. Uwe, I know I have free will, but only to sin. It is my nature to sin. In fact, I serve the law of sin and death just like the Apostle Paul did. With my mind I want to serve God, but with my body? No way! I didn't want to be saved anymore than Paul did. I am saved because God made the Gospel seem like the truth to me. If I needed faith, I must have gotten that from God to believe the gospel too. I keep believing because God must be the author and finisher of my faith. Why did God choose to save me? I don't have a clue Uwe. It's amazing grace! If something good does come me, It's NOT me doing it but God thru me. So few people even understand what I'm talking about.
An exquisite example of Christian mental gymnastics.
Thank you.
Well, we don't have free will.
We have our personal will and preferences.
But those are not free, they are bound to our person.
Developed by genetics and life experience.
Our will is bound to sin, it's not free in the sense that God's is free. Jesus' will is free to righteousness, our will is enslaved to our lusts and evil desires.
We are free to do whatever we want to do; the problem is what we want to do is not good apart from his grace & mercy. We're not robots, we're just sinful. But thank Jesus he can set us free.
"If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed!"
That's how I read the Bible.
Also, God didn't share all of his attributes. He didn't share his omnipotence.
As for the existence of evil, that's a problem for everyone to explain but then I think we should just be like children (as Jesus told us to be) and believe what he says (no more and no less - as both Calvinists and Arminians tend to do).
"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." EZK 28
I think the same could be said of us humans. How this works, we don't know. But I believe it's true. And I'm content with that.
It’s great that Mike has solved a question philosophers have been discussing for millennia in an 8 minute talk.
Uh, no he hasn’t.
@@barryclevenger7456 (I know)
perhaps philosophers did too much discussing and not enough logical thinking. After all the Israelites with their scribes and pharissees (pholosiphers) managed to get the Hebrew scriptures screwed up enough that they missed, and caused their followers to miss, their long awaited messiah, all because of opinions and religious tradition. Perhaps total depravity and predestination might be the same???? Mike I think is correct in this example. He said nothing unscriptural, why some of the commenters even think Mike said "Robots" seriously... comprehension chaps.
@@ken440 He's used the example of robots in years past. I've been following his work for a good 6 years and Heiser has not deviated on any biblical point. Sure there are lying sacks who try to twist his words, but he hasn't changed.
If only such "Pillars of "Piety" or "Giants of the Faith" like Jean Cauvin, man in Geneva had been capable of understanding God's message in the OT/NT and how those two are tightly interwoven together.
But when you torture and execute anyone who speaks against your heresies and blasphemies, then you don't have anyone to straighten out your lies and twisted beliefs from twisting the Bible. And enforcing those twisted beliefs by the sword of the state.
*Going to a philosopher to solve a Doctrinal concept is like taking a CVD shot to prevent getting CVD*
Happy your talking about this subject, this week i was looking at another TH-cam channel saying we do not have free will 🤔 or do we to a certain extent? Little confused on this.
We have free will and freely use it to sin. Unless God completely breaks the will and creates a contrite heart of repentance towards Him, free will will lead to hell.
We have free will. But it is not the free will that Adam and Eve had when they were innocent. Once they sinned, their nature was changed to sinfulness…..and their will became sinful. It hampered the original innocence they had. We, descendants of Adam and Eve, no longer have an innocent will, a non biased will. It is biased towards sinfulness. We’ve inherited their sinful nature. And that sinful nature is AGAINST God’s nature. We gravitate by our sinful nature to chose….sin. That is why God’s perfect Law cannot be fulfilled by imperfect people. Jesus did that in our behalf, fulfilling the Law. He died for our sins on the cross in our behalf, paying for our sins perfectly. He resurrectied from the dead (our final enemy) in our behalf. He has done everything for us and has promised us eternal life with Him as a result of having chosen us before the foundation of the world.
Very true, God can not give man an attribute from himself, if God does not have said attribute.
Going back to the garden of eden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil whose fruit Adam and Eve ate, became that. They were given a warning, they chose to eat despite the advice given.
Through their sin we gained that attribute till today, freewill remains an attribute but it comes with consequences.
We today have that knowledge of good and evil.
What actions results in reactions.
Like fire, it burning it's hot, there's nothing stopping a person from putting their hand into a glowing flame, the heat intensity is a warning that the flame or fire is dangerous, but it does not physically restrain or totally stop a person from putting their hands over it.
Everything that is around us offers some sort of warning of danger, either through the experience of others (words of advice) or by personal experience or by signs that is physically present from the object.
It is the choice of a person (that is freewill) to advance into the danger or withdraw.
The knowledge of good and evil exist in everyone.
OUR GOD IS GOOD,……………OUR GOD IS HOLY , HOLY , HOLY,…..FOR IT IS WRITTEN,…………AND THAT THEY MAY RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL , WHO ARE TAKEN CAPTIVE BY HIM AT HIS WILL . 2 TIMOTHY 2 : 26 KJV
God said that He regretted making us, thus flooding the earth.
I love the work that Dr. Heiser has done, and he has really helped me see the Bible in a more lively and enriched manner. However, I do want to play devil’s advocate here for a moment, because I’m curious to the answer. I don’t personally hold to these views, but these were some objections that hummed in my mind as I listened to the video…
- Humans are not omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient (All attributes of God), however we are still considered to be made in the image of God. So if humans don’t share in all the attributes of God, how do we know “free will”isn’t an attribute that is held by God alone? After all, our wills aren’t entirely free. I can’t choose to breathe underwater naturally, or change the genetic makeup of my blood to gold, or make all the stoplights turn green for me as I drive.
- Again, I believe free will exists and I don’t think we are all determined. Those were just objects I thought of, so if anyone can help me shed some light on those objections, I’d appreciate it 👍
When it can be understood (2nd temple period) YHVH was 'seen'/'known' in 2 parts, 'good' & 'destroyer'... one for each of our 'bi-polar battle'. God is 'all things' and they are (perhaps) wood or stone. How we decide to use them determines the 'name' they are under. Fire cooks - but it also burns.. God is teaching from both ends of the staff. And when you grab (choice) what will cause you 'claim' either - then God is 'happy' as you are allowing HIS forces to effect you. Learning or burning and learning. If 'evil' could not be used by God for His purpose... then it (evil) would not be. God is 'static' - as a force, does not change - and he teaches through 'spirit' (words). It is 'evil' from which we are 'called' or 'darkness', confusion, even delusion. The forces of evil are at OUR beck and call, and why the 'helper' is a 'woman'. The mother of ALL creation... NOT just the people. Evil is accomplished or described via the 4 horses. Notice there is one horse (with the scales) that goes 'north'.
Our 'orientatation' to God (listening/heeding or not) determines if He can communicate directly. If we have evil thoughts on our mind (driving spirit) God CANNOT interact with us. He is our power and life force, and as He can use evil for 'good' (really is all the same stuff - logos/legos) He would immediately MAX OUT and destroy us. Remember, God has lots of time to 'make new'. We can see this in various spots where God asks questions - why? Because He is 'dealing with' an evil situation, and He must send 'evil' to 'fix it'. Even He must sow what He wishes to reap - even in REVERSE!!
SCRIPTURE... "Who will go? Who will do it?"
Question asked of the spirits sent to add some lies to Ahab's plans. God even asks HOW they (the spirits who decided who would 'go') will do it!!
Humans aren’t omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient; but we have some power, we have some knowledge, and are present. So we actually do share those attributes, just not as fully, of course.
@@justindenlinger6304 true, true. A mirror can reflect the light of the sun to a certain extent, but it doesn’t have the same power or energy as the sun itself. In the same way we can reflect much of the attributes of God, but our image bearing pales in comparison to the Imager Himself
Hello. I firmly belive we have free will. This is because Scripture affirms it. People have been told to choose, to make a choice. And then because we see time and again, how God pleads with his people, he holds his hands out all day long, he seeks to persuade and guide them, but often we go the other way. What's the point in this if God has determined our every choice? Also God will hold us accountable, how so if we are not responsible for our actions? We have free will, and therefore we are accountable.
@@paulmann5759 Truth. Love cannot exist without choice. What some see as unattainable - a sinless life depends on the 'spirit' in which an action is performed - which 'name' it is under [IT°] (YHVH) or the 'un' (lesser YHVH). This is why Rahab and Tony Montana are able to tell (accomplish) truth, even when they lie. Everything starts with movement of God's 'spirit' - we choose which 'way', or the 'family' the fruit belongs to.
My mentor and doctor you looking health, nicely strong
How I view God as the Father. An omniscient, Omni present force with an inclination for good and justice. Sort of like how some religions view karma.
God can not take your free will. But the presence of him is always there, he has a certain level, if not full control over the natural world.
You are absolutely correct no matter if folks Free will is openly spoken of in the Bible oddly enough the reformers removed it Sirach 15 Do not say, “It was the Lord’s doing that I fell away”;
for he does not do what he hates.
12 Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”;
for he has no need of the sinful.
13 The Lord hates all abominations;
such things are not loved by those who fear him.
14 It was he who created humankind in the beginning, and he left them in the power of their own free choice. If you choose, you can keep the commandments,
and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
Great video as always.
There still are questions. How can we having same attributes as God commit sin? And never God? Unless we lack something.
And how does Bible support Free Will?
Because we are not FULLY powerful, we just have some “power”. We’re not FULLY intelligent, we just have some intelligence, and so on.
@@biblicaldefense That means we lack. And and yet will be judged to death. And we didn't choose these lacks, but were imposed upon us.
It doesn’t.
Isaiah 64:8 says he is the potter we are the clay.
In Romans 9:20 basically says who are we to question God, by saying why did u make me thus.
With fear in trembling, take care how you question God. He's not moved by it by any means actually welcomes it. God is long suffering and patient but to the world it just shows how little we understand who God really is. 🤔
That is why we need Jesus
Dr. Heiser.. QUESTION.. Has there been much scholarly writing spent on what event of the angel strengthening Jesus after the temptation and before the cross. What was this all about?
We also are not omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. as image bearers and it is not “cheating theologically “ to say that… what is “cheating theologically “ is making up a bogus argument to fit one’s presuppositions while completely ignoring Scripture
it's theological cheating to make any kind of statement without scripture. nothing in scripture says the image of God means we must share any of his attributes. all it means is that we _represent_ God (as an image does) not that we must be like him. it's _lying_ to say that God must share _any_ of his attributes, let alone a specific attribute. scripture does not deny emotion or intellect in men but it explicitly denies freedom of the heart from sin--the heart from which flow everything in men: desires, emotion, intellect.
Where can I find the rest of this video?
you know that your one of the only people who got this right? im impressed you figured out what the real forbidden fruit is.
I see the analogy there where God comes to the garden to visit with Adam and eve after they have sinned, he comes first to them in the beautiful garden and then comes to humanity again to our fallen earth this time to save us from our selves/sin, he loves us that much. Thank you Jesus for your ultimate sacrifice for me and all of humanity.
This was great, thank you
@Dr. Michael Heiser, love your work. Just some thoughts, over the last 19 years or so I've come to the understanding of a Unitarian Universalist view of God and his plan for humanity. I don't view the Garden of Eden as a finished work, meaning when God says "created man in his image" if my understanding of the word used in Hebrew for "created" can actually be translated as "creating", so it's an ongoing process. I'm sure we can both agree that God was not surprised that Adam and Eve partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as God had told them not to eat of it. Man was not complete and God had already predestined the need for a 2nd Adam which was "slain from the foundation of the world" before Adam and Eve even sinned.
I get what you're saying that as imagers of God, we would inherit his attributes, but we can already deduce by the Holy Spirit that we are not fully converted into the 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 scenario where God becomes All in All, when we become believers; we receive only a portion of the Holy Spirit as a down payment. Paul goes through great detail explaining the thorns of his flesh and the struggles of not yet being perfected as God is perfect. Even Jesus stated, why do you call me good, only God is good. So as human beings, perfection is impossible in the flesh (not that Jesus wasn't perfect, but he was operating with the fully dwelt Holy Spirit inside him), but it is what we strive towards. I think the Bible is pretty clear about Free Will, especially considering Roman 9 where Paul lays out how God operates through election regardless of men's actions. That's not to say we aren't accountable for sin, but ultimately God is responsible and he's already provide the solution in Jesus. We obviously make decisions every days (which have consequences), but the underlying influences upon us (like in the story of Pharaoh and Ahab at Ramoth Gilead) demonstrate a strong case that ultimately man's will is not free. I think we'll only receive our Free Will upon perfection in the Resurrection when we truly escape this body of sin and death and receive our incorruptible body. It is then that God will be All in All, and only in that state can mankind actually be free.
Evil is very much a problem even if there is no Free Will, but it's not a problem that God can't correct.
Isaiah 45:7
King James Version
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
In fact, God claims that he's in control of it all (not the one doing the evil, that's why he created Watchers/Angels/Devil). Many times he created the evil that destroyed or punished various nations, including Israel. Evil serves the temporary purpose of bringing about God's plan of salvation so that sin can be shown to be utterly sinful and with that experience mankind will understand and appreciate the good that God is. God also states that...
1 Timothy 2
New King James Version
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
and God backs that up with...
Isaiah 46:10
King James Bible
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
So man's will and evil that God created is not too large a problem for God to resolve through reconciling all creation back to himself through Christ Jesus. We very much have a will, but it's can't thwart God's sovereign will...which is truly the only Free Will in existence.
Just my 2 cents, would love to hear your insight, especially on the Hebrew word for created/creating and if I understand that correctly.
I get it about free will and often point at it in discussions. Which leads to the question of why does evil even have to exist. Why not a creation in which there is simply no evil? Why does ' evil have to be the dividing line? Maybe I just answered my own question; because anything without God is evil. Some say it is the absence of God.
This should be common sense.
Confessional Calvinists BELIEVE in free will. It's a different understanding of free will but is no less free will. Dr. Heiser has also misrepresented Total Depravity and instead described humans utterly depraved, or as bad as they can be, which is not what Calvinists think. It may do some good to take a bit of a deeper dive into Reformed Theology.
NOTHING under the umbrella of "Calvinism" believes in free will. If you think it does you have totally deceived yourself and likely others. I was immersed in Purest Calvinism on a daily basis for 20 years then part time after that. I know what REAL Calvinists believe and think, even the wacky superstitions that Jean Cauvin held. You, sir, are the one who is misrepresenting words/statements because you are deceived.
Pray to God earnestly and repeatedly to lead you to the truth of Him and His Scriptures, and to lead you to teachers speaking NO lies, and to give you wisdom to discern evil/deceit from the clear vision of His truth(not some man's opinion of twisting the truth either). If you are earnest and sincere about giving your heart to the Holy Spirit to guide you, then amazing things will happen. If you are not, you will stay mired in your cesspool of "theology" polluted by deceitful men with dark twisted hearts.
This is beautiful. Well said.
How could a perfect God create imperfect human beings (Adam and eve)? It doesn’t make sense to me. Genesis 1, When God saw all that he created and said that it was “VERY GOOD” I always understood that to mean perfect.
What scholars leave out, after the fall, is that Adam and Eve had children that are in their image and likeness. And that image and likeness was God's image and likeness. That is the same language used when the original man and woman were made who had free will. So, that same pattern of mankind, after Adam and eve, having the same free will, is carried on.
Free will must first be defined. We cannot choose freely, autonomously, independently, from any internal or outside factor.
What is meant by free will in this context, is the power we have to oppose God or join Him. Context is important.
Calvinists and Mormons both believe that God ordained Adam to sin. 2 Nephi 2:22-24
Where is the full video?
While I acknowledge that the doctrine of Total Depravity has to be balanced with the doctrine of Man's Dignity, this is not a description of Total Depravity (man is not as bad as he could be, but sin has affected every part of his being to a greater or lesser extent). We weren't made for the pig sty, but that's what we chose and choose
If total depravity is what you hold, then you have to concede that the pig sty is literally all we are able to choose. Man can't be dignified in that way.
I agree with you on mostly everything. The only qeustion I have about the “cheating” theory is this, what about these two characteristics of God that we do not have… omnipresence and omnipotence? Would those not be characteristics of God that no human has? And by that mindset wouldn’t that also be “cheating” or simply just leading to us ultimately not being the image of God because we don’t have those attributes that he has. So if free will is a characteristic of God that is required for us to be made in his image wouldn’t we all need the other characteristics he has such as the two I mentioned? I would love to hear your answer to this question. Like I said I agree with you but if I didn’t that would be my counter argument to you saying leaving a characteristic out is cheating.
precisely, not good argument on Dr H's side
Correct. This argument rests on demonstrably shaky ground. And, as it represents much of the foundation for his later arguments, proves an insufficient basis upon which to refute “the problem of evil.” If this theological problem were this easy with which to dispense - others would have done so long ago. I might even go so far as to say Dr H displays a bit of hubris here, presenting this as if it is appropriate framing for the problem at hand.
I’m also fond of the argument presented at 3:15, which basically asserts, unintentionally, that if God needs/creates/facilitates sin or evil, then a lot of other theological problems arise immediately. Haha. Yes, yes they do. Well noted, Dr H. Welcome to the conversation.
Its not that we have to have all the attributes that God has to be in his image. Its that without freewill we cant have the other attributes from his image. How can you be creative without free will? How can you be intelligent without free will? You arent doing anything without free will, you are just reacting to the things around in a programmed way.
@@mastershake4641 Clearly, you’re right. But, free will is not a sufficient answer to the problem of evil. There are other answers I find interesting, particularly on the metaphysical front, but free will isn’t one of them. Mostly, because it ends up being sort of post hoc justification rather than a true explanation.
This is what I love about Dr. Heiser, he makes me look at the Bible in different ways. I dont ALWAYS agree on what he says, but a good 99.578% have either changed my viewpoint on a subject (2 or 3 times) and agreeing on the rest.... you know, the other .422% aside... lol
I never really thought about it. The fact that they had failures makes perfect sense though. We learn through our failures and they force us to adapt but there are plenty of failures, for all of us, that aren't sins so why wouldn't there be failures. They were still (the Bible doesn't tell us how long) sinless.
We have come so far from those two..... and it's sad. Mankind, overall, has seemed to become a bunch of narcissistic, petty, materialistic, mean (I would go so far as to say, in a lot of cases, evil) and miserable fools.
I don’t see anywhere in the Bible that would say we have free will only that we are fallen and a slave to sin And that God has created some for dishonourable use and others for honourable use as it says in Roman’s he has the right over the clay and that he plans man steps not ourselves.
God has free will and He 'always' loves and 'never' does wrong. So, why He does not give the same free will to human beings also.
Then, we will also 'always' love and will 'never' do anything wrong.
What is the problem in giving such kind of free will to us so that we never commit evil acts and retain our free will also (just like the fact that God has free will but he 'never' does anything wrong)?
Do we have free will? We were created with it in Adam, but after he fell, I'd say the biblical answer is no, we don't as regards to choosing not to sin. The curse for disobeying the one and onliest one (I love using that word), the very simple commandment directly given to all who were alive in Eden was, "See that tree over there? Don't eat the fruit of it." That was it. The penalty was "dying, you shall die" a twofold separation from the will and Presence of God.
All who were born of Adam fell into that condition when he chose evil, the lack of good. "Free will" became the curse of every human, becoming the will to "be like the Most High", free to rebel, but not free to choose to return. The true free will of Adam was marred and corrupted like all of the other attributes inherited from His "image" the moment he sinned. This is why God must choose you before you can choose Him. This is why Christ loses not one of those whom the Father "gives" Him. It's not that God has "foreknowledge", it that He chose before the world began, per scriptures. He is known by the three "Omni's", but I believe that there is a forth Omni which is rarely discussed: God is Omni-temporal, existing simultaneously at the beginning of history and the end of it. He knows because He's there now. All "nows".
When we debate "theodicy", we do so from the perspective of men, men with finite knowledge and a point of view which is anthropocentric. Were we to attempt understanding a theocentric view of the same things, I'd guess it would be about 180 degrees off from our own. Remember: the universe, all of Creation itself is the proprietary concern of God Himself, not man. He created it first and foremost as a demonstration of who He is, not a mere environment for part of that creation called "man". King Nebuchadnezzar expresses it this way in the part of the bible he wrote after waking from the madness of being an animal for 7 years in chapter 4:
"all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, 'What have you done?' "
This is the God of whom he spoke earlier in that same chapter, saying, "At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever," God doesn't care about what you think or do as relates to His plan in demonstrating Himself. But at the same time, He is the very definition of "good", of "love" and as such may be trusted fully by those who love Him for their own good to be a part of His plan.
He is not a tame lion, but He is good.
Free will does not have a single thing to do with salvation. One verse will tell us that. 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13 KJV.
According to scripture Yahuwah's predestined elect family members, we do not have this "free will" choice to be in his pre-established family. It's simply not so. Romans 8:29- is very clear on that. Free will for salvation is another invention of the human family to make God's point easier to swallow and comprehend. God does not need anyone's permission or opinion. And frankly doesn't care what we think. 3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Psalm 115:3 KJV. This belief is perverted but taught in nearly all mainstream churches. Just as the sinner's prayer and you're saved. Sending prayers for you health Dr. Heiser. Thank you for the upload.
A lot of hand waving going on in this piece.
If God created the universe and all in it he also created sin and evil. Maybe we don't understand but it's still on God.
Thats a slippery slope fallacy. God didn't directly create evil. God created good things, but evil is the perversion of goodness. For example, in the pursuit of a making money online there are 2 ways to go about it.
1. Make money through honest means such as by starting a business and building content online.
2. Stating a scamming center.
Option 1 is good, but option 2 is a perversion of that. Option 2 does not mean that making money is evil.
Jesus learned obedience (Heb 5:8) and when the redeemed are in the new heaven and earth, they need not fear imperfection because they will be like Jesus, perfect (1John 3:2)
So does this mean god wanted me to grow up in a house that used the underside of a hotwheels track for discipline so that I would love him? I get the feeling god doesn't fully understand love and why someone deserves it...
Was the Son slain, in the heavenly realm, before the foundation of the world, to cover the possibility of a wrong choice?
*I would say to answer that question you need to look at the function of prophecy its purpose and its motive which is always to demonstrate to the CELESTIALS and to MANKIND for all time that HE ALONE is GOD and there is no one else who shall EVER take His place.*
It's not about God "forcing/needing sin", its that God is sovereign over everything, including good, evil, and human will. Any created will is conditioned by the will of the Creator. "Mans heart devises his way, but the Lord directs his steps." "What you intended for evil God intended for good."
God took everything into account before he started. I'm guessing he created a world that would fall because it's redemption would ultimately elevate it above any state in which it could be merely created.
Every relationship is comprised of beings. There is only One Being who was never created; but for all the rest of us, we are born ignorant of everything. Birth is followed by growth and learning which lead eventually to maturity; but the avenue of growth is strife, and the avenue of learning is error. We are born infants, but we are called the Bride of Christ. No one marries an infant. We MUST experience strife and adversity in order to become mature, to be ready to be the Bride of Christ.
Eve wanted to gain divine wisdom by eating the forbidden fruit, as the serpent tempted her by saying they would "become like God" if they ate it. What she gained in the immediate was recognition of her humanity; indeed, "knowledge of good and evil," which is why they were expelled from the Garden of Eden "lest they should eat also of the Tree of Life and live forever" in their brokenness.
The wages of sin is death so that each of us does not continue doing harm to everyone and everything that we touch for the rest of forever. Eve didn't get to become a god. She became mortal instead.
But, we rarely discuss the OTHER Tree in that garden. She chose the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, but she could have chosen the Tree of Life and continued to live in innocent harmony with God and Adam and all of Creation.
Because she did not choose the Tree of Life, EACH OF US has the opportunity to choose it for ourselves.
Just like Eve, we have a choice to live by the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or to live by the Tree of Life. Will you choose to eat of The Law, which brings knowledge of sin and through it death? Or will you choose to eat the fruit of the One who died to buy you out of sin and give you eternal life?
Sorry, I finished my comment with a question but yours makes it clear that you know where your Life comes from. The "alter call" (lol) was more for 3rd person readers
God doesn’t persuade man to sin.
@@kingattila506 Yet some are "vessels of wrath" and "whom he will, he hardens".
" 'Why then does he yet find fault?' Nay, o man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: 'What are you doing?' "
God is sovereign over *everything* including human actions; he's omnipotent and omniscient, and could certainly prevent any actions he didn't want. He holds YOU, however, responsible for your motives.
What it boils down to is that God allows sin and evil and rebellion because *they don't matter* ; you can't thwart His purpose, only be used to accomplish it in your own despite, then discarded, thus glorifying God. So why not serve the Purpose with joy and understanding, and be rewarded instead?
Except your "free will" erodes precipitously when you don't have all of the creature comforts, climate controls and nutrition that we do..
So from a purely natural perspective human free will is illusory.
But going even further you are an image of God and when you are in Christ you do God's will.
No amount of free choice works do any good for your salvation. Nothing you do in the eyes of God is worthy if you are not regenerated... simply because you still contain a heart of stone.
God doesn't share all His attributes with us. He doesn't share His infiniteness, unchangeableness, or His eternality. God's Free Will is an attribute that He has not given to us, as we are not infinite, nor are we eternal in the same way that He is.
If you don't have free will, it's impossible to love. Love requires choice. It's impossible to define it without the ability to choose. If it's not given out of choice, then it isn't love. The fact that we have the ability to love proves we have free will.
@@josephwilliams6586 free will is not a necessary component to love and love doesn't require choice. This is not an argument that the Bible makes. It is simply an assertion.
Wow! Satan was an amelanistic Corn Snake?
Attributes God didn't share with humans. Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, impassability, immutability, simplicity & free will. :) Check, and mate based on the form of your argument Dr. Michael S. Heiser.
God is also omniscient… he doesn’t share that with us. He’s omnipotent, he doesn’t share that with us. He’s triune, he doesn’t share that with us. In fact there are many attributes of God that he doesn’t share with us. How about his simplicity-why am I made of parts if I’m in the image of God? It’s because being in the image of God doesn’t mean what you’re saying it means. And we have will, but it is not free-we cannot act outside our nature which God has designed us with.
You seem to be confusing a couple of concepts, here. You seem to not understand what Heiser means by "image of God". He means that we are over this earth as God is over us. That is, we were created to rule over this world just as God rules over all. We are not called ambassadors for no reason. We are to represent (image) God in this world.
You also must take "free will" in the context of the passage, which is about the freedom to reject God or embrace Him.
Being unrestricted and all powerful, is not the same thing as free will. I can tell a 4yr old they are not allowed to take an unattended ride to the airport to fly to exotic locations. That restriction does not mean the child does not have free will.
Doesn't being an imager imply; one is a reflection of the real and not the real itself?
It's like; the holy spirit in us, it's derived from the spirit of God inside us but not the same as, it's equal to God's one, um appearance, but not the same as, this thing, is up to God know not us
We have some freedom in the will. However our freedom is limited because of our sinful nature. Therefore our will is not truly free, because we are under the bondage of sin. Those with a deeper understanding of the Bible will understand this. We don't have all of God's attributes that is a ridiculous argument. We are not omnipotent, we are not omniscient for example.
Boom, another hit 👍🙏
God very obviously didn't share all his attributes with us. We are not omnipotent, omnipresent or omnipotent in any capacity. Image bearers doesn't mean copies, therefore we don't by necessity need to have God's attribute of freedom.
The one thing God cannot do is sin. If that's so how does he have free will. Not taking away His sovereignty I believe it shows His Perfect nature. Can I hear y'all's opinions on this. I'm not looking to debate just see different perspectives on this
God treats every person according to his purpose and we are all subject to Gods purpose. Romans 8:28>38,39.
Humans do have part of the attribute of will but just not unlimited like God. similar to God being wise and humans having wisdom, but we don't have ALL wisdom.
Humans have limited will. God is present everywhere, we are present somewhere but not everywhere. So we have some limited will but not unlimited AKA free will. we are limited by our nature, our sin nature that is hostile to God and doesn't seek God.
Romans 9:16-17: Consequently therefore, ⌊it does not depend on the⌋ one who wills or on the one who runs, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I have raised you up, so that I may demonstrate my power in you, and so that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Supposedly that god exists. To whom does god bow ? Because if he doesn't bow to anybody, then god is an atheist
Good Video.
Our idea of perfection may get in the way of interpretation here. Perfection means 'complete'. Jesus said (Mat 5:48) "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect".
This equates with what God said to Israel: Lev 11:45 "For I am the Lord who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.”
From this we can quickly conclude that although Adam and Eve were 'very good', they were not yet morally 'perfect', 'complete' or 'holy'.
Innocent would be a better word to describe them.
The process by which they could become perfect - 'like God' - in terms of holiness, began in Eden when they were tested. Through this it was discovered that they had to work to develop His qualities - truth, justice, mercy and compassion. This would be for them a lifetime's learning based on faith in God's redemption.
We now have on record the sacrifice that 'completed' the work of God, in Jesus Christ, which Adam and Eve saw only dimly as a future event.
A few problems with his argument. 1) God didn't share all of his attributes with humans. This is why theologians refer to communicable and incommunicable attributes. 2) Characterizing those you disagree with as cheaters isn't exactly honoring those who are made in God's Image either.
It just means your not being biblical in your mindset. Our opinions holds nothing at the end of the day. 🤔
Your "opinion" is so far off the rails it very very obvious you are not truly earnestly praying to God to lead you to the truth of His Message via His Scriptures and to lead you to righteous teachers speaking NO lies, and to impart true wisdom into your heart to discern truth from lies, fact from deceit.
I have never had this thought before… but God walking in the cool of the day… is that the Angel of God?
It was God.
yeah, it was simply God as it says, why try to figure out if he was wearing shoes or not.
@@ken440 other works by Dr. Heiser compares the Angel of the Lord with Jesus. The imagery that I have with Genesis is different than the New Testament. It was just a new thought that it was the same Angel of the Lord that met Abraham outside of Sodom that was walking in Eden and is also Jesus.
@@ryannoe86 yeah.. i disagree with Mike on that issue, he forgets his own teaching, that "angel" is a job description, it means messenger, and therefore an angel of the lord, whether it bears the definite artical or not, is a messenger of the lord, not a set of attributes.
@@ken440 Yea, I'm looking at this now. It actually just says YHWH met with Abraham, not an Angel of YHWH. Earlier, the Angel of YHWH found Hagar in the wilderness. I need to do a little more studying. LITV Gen 18:1-5 (pieces of it to save typing) "And YHWH appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre... and behold, three men (Strong's H376 - iysh - meaning individual or a male person) were standing by him (referring to Abraham). And he saw, and he ran to meet them from the entrance of the tent. And he bowed to the ground. And he said "My Adonai (Strong's H136 - Lord/God), if now I have found favor in your sight, I beg you, do not leave from near your servant. Please allow a little water to be taken and you wash your feet, and rest under the tree. And I will bring a bite of bread and will sustain your heart." --- It makes me believe that YHWH came in human form to Abraham on this occasion.
Sin came into the world when man sinned. Adam chose to transgress the commandment of God.
Yes, chose with his free will and by doing so total depravity passed to the entire human race.
@@barryclevenger7456 no, just the consequences, cut off from God and eternal life. That is what happened. They can still decide to push back and seek their God, as many did, the heroes of the bible, its full of them.
Yep, give you a thumbs up, and I would point out that Phil2:6 points this out from the perspective of the second Adam, Jesus, who "did not grasp at equality with God" (like the first adam grasped at ) but was obedient to his fathers will, even the cross. That verse is nothing to do with God putting his godness on a shelf to come to earth as a man, it simply should point out to the reader something they should know, that Adam made a free willed choice to be disobedient. He, Adam, misused his will, to our detriment. Jesus used his will well to everyones credit. Again a parallel, if all can be saved when they call on Jesus name, but not all people are automatically saved. (its free will of individual) then we should here (the nay sayers) be able to see that as Adam sinned and caused sin to enter into the world, not every person is totally locked into being unable to chose not to sin (as some here cliaim, the nay sayers).
@@ken440 No, sin and death passed to the entire human race.
@@barryclevenger7456 i didnt say it didnt, i was resisting your seeming meaning of "total depravity" where depravity is another meaning for evil, so your term suggests total evil, which means total the devil. but i was pointing out mankind and creation is now suffering under the effects of total depravity, i.e. the devil, and does not have to be totaly absorbed by it. We can will to stand against it.
I think we mean something similar but your total depravity by definition means totaly devil. We are oppressed of the devil, not the devil himself. This is why God loves man but hates evil. God reaches out in redemption to mankind in love, but refuses the spirits who sinned and rebelled, hating their destruction and soiling of His created human family and their world He first created for them. Obvious in the greater context of scripture.
Instead people try to make it an evil flaw in man that is responsible. Forgetting that the Nachesh tempted eve, and Adam heard and willed to be equal with God as the tempter said would be the outcome. Thats disobedience, an act of will, not an inherent evil within as meant by total depravity as a causitive. Depravity is the result, not the cause. god offers a way out , our will decides, its us who decide, each for himself, and is why evangelism can exist.
Otherwise God is a discriminatorial monster.
Wait he did try to eliminate everyone given Noah's ark and that didn't work
I have pushed back on some things Dr. Heiser shares but I absolutely appreciate his take on predestination and election. He's the guy I turn to on articulating an intellectual response to Calvinists. Thanks for these words of wisdom.
My argument has been that the God is not the God of confusion. Right? Then why does He tell Israel to choose this day? God does not tease man and for Him to offer choices throughout Scripture, both old and new testament, would make Him not only evil but cruel.
You would be correct on your assessment……if it were exhaustive. Throughout the whole of the Scriptures, God has revealed that He has chosen people to do His will. The Doctrine of Election is Biblical. If it cannot be found in Scripture, then many passages that obviously says it would have to be cut out and disposed of if your assessment was exhaustive. Christ tells His disciples that they did not chose Him…..but that He has chosen them. Paul the apostle, who calls himself in the Scriptures the chief of sinners, writes extensively that God chose him…..not the other way around. On his way to Damascus to prosecute believers, God knocked him off his BMW, Mercedes’ Benz, or whatever mode of transportation they had in the first century, and converts him as a believer. Jesus did not invite Paul and asked him if he would like to join him to spread the gospel, in perfect harmony. Paul writes to the Ephesians, as in his many other epistles, God’s SOVEREIGNTY on His choosing of people to His Kingdom. John the apostle writes on his gospel, chapter 6, that the Father has given Jesus his elect. If we don’t believe what the Scriptures teach, then we have to cut and remove all those passages where God reveals His election. Then, we would end up with another Jefferson Bible; Jefferson cut out any MIRACLES and SUPERNATURAL events from the Bible. If Jefferson did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, he died as an unbeliever. That si the risk of not accepting the entire Bible. Be blessed in Him, may all the glory be to Him
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 Hey, I really appreciate the dialogue. It's refreshing to disagree with someone but not to be frustrated with them. (Please understand that there is no sarcasm in my response.) I would encourage you to watch Dr. Heiser's video on election. As I mentioned in my first post, Dr. Heisler has articulated well my thoughts on the subject. In the short clip he shares his understanding of election, which reconciles how Israel was God's elect, yet many still died before inheriting the Promised Land. I agree with it.
I also agree with the Scripture examples you shared. So if God tells us to choose this day but then Jesus says there are an elect, how do we reconcile the two. Why not both? And this is in Romans 8:29 which states "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined..." I believe God knew who would receive and reject Him but we are still offered a choice. In Matthew 11:23-24, Christ mentioned Sodom would not have been destroyed if the miracles had occurred there, implying they would have repented. (Yes, its an assumption but He also says Sodom's judgement will be more tolerable.) We know that Jesus cannot lie so if He makes that statement then He knew what they will decide. And being that He is the same always, God knows all, whether it happens or not. Jesus also said that hell was created for the devil and his angels, not for man. We are not predestined for heaven or hell. We are given a choice.
I don't know how you will respond but we probably won't agree. I don't think this is a salvation issue so I think it's okay to disagree. IF you wish to respond, fine. But I don't want to seem like that guy who wants the last word. If you would like me to respond back, let me know. Otherwise, I will let us disagree in peace. Stay diligent. Look to Christ. And I agree, may all the glory be to Him.
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 If I choose an employee to do a job for me on any given day, does NOT mean I have rejected the other employees or fired them, it just means the one I chose I either wanted to bless, or they held the best qualification for that task. Its that simple.
Not predestination or total depravity of man, those are creedal statements by men hundreds of years after the events. Religious tradition.
@@uwekonnigsstaddt524 You know what Uwe? The gospel of God really is total foolishness to those who perish. Not just another point of view. The gospel of God is nuts foolishness to those who perish. I don't even know why God saved me. I am in the same camp with Paul as a chief of sinners. No one seeks after God at anytime and no one does good either. The power of salvation is IN the gospel. That does not mean God will make that gospel a Grace alone not of works Gospel to everyone. Some hear it, add there works and are told by men that makes God happy and unties His hands. That gospel makes sense to the unsaved and there is nothing the elect of God can do about it. In fact, it pleases God that the gospel heard by the foolish perish. That which is of flesh is just flesh. If I were NOT saved, I would believe the Grace plus me gospel for sure.
@@ken440 So what you are saying is basically some people are predestined because God wants to use them in certain ways however for the rest of us, we will go through the traditional route: God gives us grace, we have to accept it and faithfully walk with God until we complete the race? This explanation would solve the issue of predestination vs free-will.
I wonder how this apply to the angels and their free will?
Heiser has some interesting teachings here about the Sons of God and the Divine Council. Eternity is a loooooooooooooooong time.
The angels that left their places in Heaven to rebel against God by trying to set up their own kingdom on Earth, did this by their own free will. There is zero chance of redemption for them and they know it. They had it all in heaven and they rejected it to commit chaos and havoc in God's Creation. They know they're heading for the lake of fire, no do over or second chances.
@@baltichammer6162 Can these same fallen angels choose now to do good?
Did God tell Adam and Eve not eat from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.
It was not man said those words but it was God. God at that moment and Words he confirm he gave us choice free will?
God himself show and told We have free Will to choose.
Do not eat, what is the opposite choice?
Will we have free will in heaven?
But we don't have omnipotence, and that's one of God's attributes too. I don't think this argument works. I agree with the conclusion, that we have to have the ability to make genuine choices which we are responsible for if we are to image God. But I don't think the route works because there are some attributes of God that we clearly do not have.
That's more like a power than an attribute. There is a distinction between one's nature and one's abilities.
@@droe2570 We are nothing like God in our current predicament.
@@barryclevenger7456 Not sure what your point is.
Omnipotence describes how powerful God is, He is ALL powerful. We can say that man has power, very minimal, infact completely tiny but we can do stuff. Just a thought
Also, that's only part of the story in his arguments. I'm not trying to be a argumentative doosh🙂
Did the sin in the garden have to do with a tree and its fruit, or as some have suggested have to do with sexual sin?
I have heard and studied into this argument, however Eve/Adam’s sin was not eating a fruit, for all we know it was a common fruit we have today. Their sin was disobeying God, specifically, by eating of the tree they are saying they do not believe God to be God but instead they believe themselves to be God. That was their sin. Even if you pursue the sexual argument to eating fruit, it doesn’t change the fact that the fruit/sex is not the sin but their desire to be God.
The sin of Eden:
God says "off limits!"
Mankind says "I'll decide" rather than trusting God.
We compete with God for authority over ourselves. We lose against His omniscient love.
The sexual ideas come from the unschooled readers. It's not in the text
There were 2 trees in that Garden. We always fixate on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but planted there was also the Tree of Life. Eve coveted divine knowledge, so she ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, in so doing doing disobeying the only command the Lord Most High gave them.
But we know God did leave out at least one of His characteristics yet we were still made in His image. The knowledge of good and evil was left out because with that and eternal life, we were like the Elohim.
"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become LIKE ONE OF US in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever” Genesis 3:22. So there was a bit of truth in the serpent's lie.
That is the difference and the thing that separates a man from elohim, This is what you fail to recognize when you argue if Psalm 82 refers to man as elohim, why would these mortal men die like mortal men. Because they were men but not mortal, because God made them elohim (until they screwed it up)
We know at least one man besides God's only begotten Son, that was made like unto a son of God, Melchizedek, who kept his righteousness, and thus he lives forever and was not rebuked in Psalm 82.
I. *If God presenting a standard with no other opposition to that standard wishes to create a FAMILY both Celestial and Terrestrial would not the seed of opposition be PRESENT in the EXTENSION of the attribute of HIS OWN WILL? And if WILL is the ABILITY to CHOOSE (which I believe it is) what demonstration does CHOICE offer without a DUAL POSSIBLE outcome? It is GOD's Standard which is the ULTIMATE DEMONSTRATION of God's INTENT for all He created whether angel or human. The DEMONSTRATION is USELESS without an OPPOSITION to the STANDARD presented by the DEMONSTRATOR...*
II. *The first objects of God's DEMONSTRATION we are aware are His 'Angelic' creations. Having been created with FREE WILL many of them chose to OPPOSE the STANDARD. The 2nd objects of God's DEMONSTRATION are humans. Having been created with FREE WILL our progenitors OPPOSED the STANDARD presented by the DEMONSTRATOR. What is it that GOD is attempting to DEMONSTRATE to MEN and ANGELS alike???*
III. *Why is the beauty of HIS HOLINESS greater than that of ALL of His created beings? If it were beyond his ABILITY to break HIS OWN rules then what is the QUALITY of the DEMONSTRATION? What do we LEARN being made LIKE HIM POSSESSING the same ABILITY which is FREEDOM of WILL to BREAK HIS LAWS? I don't think we can even attempt to answer this in our present state...*
IV. *Nor, do I believe that this is the ONLY DEMONSTRATION that GOD is projecting HIMSELF into on our BEHALF. If HOLINESS means God does NOT interact with EVIL because he is UNABLE to then HOLINESS would be an ATTRIBUTE in direct CONTRADICTION with the PERSON who is supposed to EMBODY the ATTRIBUTE and we know that GOD IS ONE...*
V. *However, if it MEANS that GOD by virtue of the POWER of HIS LOVE lives BEYOND the CAPACITY to COMMIT EVIL due to HIS OWN WILL, HIS OWN CHOICE, HIS OWN FREEDOM to BEING then HOLINESS not only as an attribute abides in PERFECT SYNCHRONICITY and EQUILIBRIUM with the EMBODIMENT of the DEMONSTRATOR but it GIVES the DEMONSTRATION a FULFILLMENT of MEANING that we will SPEND ETERNITY OBSERVING and LEARNING from by OBSERVING the DEMONSTRATOR.*