I haven't opened my boxes yet, and won't for a while. I really hope Guildhall does the right thing and 1) finishes the app, 2) sends every backer an updated rulebook and corrected game components.
I got the All-In pledge for this one, so I have a bit of an emotional investment in this. I totally expected there to be issues with the app on Day 1, that's the most unsurprising part about any new technology that comes out, so I could deal with that. I'm still hoping that the app will be worked on and will grow into something more entertaining. But that rulebook, man, it needs a second edition ASAP. The online FAQ is almost as long as the original rulebook; that screams poor QA. There are game-changing rules in the FAQ that aren't in the original rulebook. For example, if you're "allied" with one of the NPC factions, you win the game if that faction completes their objective. Speaking of allies, the original rulebook doesn't define what "allied", "neutral", and "hostile" mean. Again, that's game-changing information! My first playthrough was a 2-player game and it turned into a co-op adventure because we had no idea how to win without the NPCs growing out of control. Knowing how to turn the NPCs to "allied" or "neutral" is super important.
Thanks for this, I have it on my shelf and was waiting for feedback on the app. The reason it says scan is because the original design was to scan the cards, but they had technical issues and dropped it. The app was very rushed and even fell a week or two behind delivery so people couldn’t even play the game they’d received. That said, I can wait a year to play it as I have plenty on my plate for now. Looking forward to it actually because I love sandbox games!
I have this game from KS. The review is pretty spot on. I'll just add that the expansion adds a lot of replay value. With the core you have 6 different combinations of enemy factions. With the expansion added in you have 35 (if my math is right...). Not regetting getting it, as I'm painting the bosses right now, and they are a lot of fun to paint.
First board game on Kickstarter I actually regret investing in. And now they have a bunch of games lost in shipment that they are having to mitigate and refund random backers on. This project is now in the “nightmare” category.
Good review, it did take some time and googling to find out how to play. But after out first game, it became much clearer. Indeed a lot of room for improvement but also already a lot of fun playing!
After Forgotten Waters, which I think was very solid right out of the gate and then leveraged the app portion to continually extend content (rather than having to fix major bugs), this was a major let down. When copies arrived to people's doors, they had to wait weeks for the app to be available, let alone ready. This sharply contrasts my enthusiasm for app driven games. I love them, in general, but the way this rolled out shows how *not* to do app driven games, no matter how clever they're intended to be. I'll let it sit for a year and try it again, but I'd honestly rather pull out World of Yo-Ho than this right now...
I'm kind of glad I'm backed up on getting games to the table. Gives this game time to simmer, and hopefully by the time my group gets to it, it'll have it's issues addressed.
Tom is right on the money with his review. I haven't brought this to the table yet as it's too clunky in it's current form. I would love to see this get the Myth treatment with a 2.0 sooner rather then later and a cheap upgrade kit for those of us who kick-started the game already
Great review as always. Has the rulebook and app gotten better? I was considering backing but again, i might reconsider since your comments on the app kinda killed the buzz for me. I also felt the visual feedback to be on the poor side - appears confusing at times. =/
Well it's just over a year since this video was posted and a new Kickstarter campaign has just launched, with new expansions and an update to the base game - specifically the rulebook and app. I wonder if this will push this from an "almost" to an "excellent" for Tom :)
"I almost kind of wish they had used different art for that." WHAT?! HOW DARE YOU!!! "Like here they're smiling at you, and here they're sneering at you." Oh? Oh. Yeah. Sorry. You're right. Sorry. I thought you meant... nevermind. It's nothing. You're right.
I couldn't agree more with Tom on this one (and that's rare!) - the initial experience for me as soon as I got the game from KS was...meh. Too many things (especially in the app) needed finetuning - it's almost as if they released the physical components too quickly (and not looking too closely at the rulebook either, I agree) before making sure the app is working as it expected. I too packed it up for now and will revisit in a year.
I agree. The rules for play (especially solo) are difficult to understand. I imagine the app will get better with time but if I can't understand the rules, it's going to make it harder for me to get it to the table. The game is beautiful though.
Been waiting for this review and I LOVE this game. And am FURIOUS at how atrocious the rulebook and app are. It's a ton of fun that gets bogged down by those two essential but half baked components. Fix it, fix it, fix it.
I feel like this game should have aspired to the production level of Xia. That would have been so epic. In terms of a random map, a more imaginative ship board and ship upgrading etc.
32 developers! THIRTY TWO! Goes to show you don’t need a ton of developers to make a great game. In fact you figure with this many developers they’d QC a lot better. It was definitely rushed.
Should mature nicely throughout the year as Covid had a big impact on the app. And just like Chronicles of Crime Millienium, I can wait for the app content to keep up. Also if you check the kickstarter page... check out the vast amount of peeps working on this title... it's certainly no indie!
App design and board game design definitely are different beasts....being able to do one doesn't mean you'll do well at the other. I think a lot of app-assisted games assume that or aren't willing to pay enough for top-notch app developers (or their time, at least...I assume most apps for games get rushed).
@@bricelory9534 I agree. In software development, User Experience is an entire design unit and field onto itself, and that is where most of these apps lack.
It seems like a lot of the app-integrated games primarily use the app to deliver choice based text. That has the be the most boring use of that technology possible.
Quite a bit is fixed here, but I'm with Tom; too many loose ends right now (I've had 3 plays of 2-4 players): gamefound.com/projects/zachary-weisman/sea-of-legends/faq#/
I wouldn't really call forgotten Waters sandbox but it's by far the best game out of those 4. The other 3 aren't anywhere near my top 100 games and forgotten Waters is my number 5
Jamaica Vs Forgotten Waters... I just can't decide. I love both. I've also got "Pirates! Extraordinary Adventures"... It's a pretty good Jamaica clone. I actually use the wooden pirate meeples from that game to play Forgotten Waters, because I hate using the fiddly standees, especially in a 2 player game, they work perfectly and you can even use one each on the infamy track. I upgraded the dice and now the game has a much more premium feel.
Forgotten Waters is on top. However, we still enjoy Yo-Ho with its unique mechanic and integration of your actual phone. That app was made a while back and is far more superior than Sea of Legends app. Yes I know. They do two different things. However, SoL should have technically been easier to develop versus Yo-Ho. And yes...we call it “SoL” now. I’m sure you can figure out why.
Forgotten Waters is the best, BUT Sea of Legends COULD GET THERE if the app wasn't so clunky. I dislike how FW is "co-op until it isn't" and how you're NOT the captain. Sea of Legends let's you be the captain!!
Just played this tonight and I loved it but 100% agree about the rulebook... terrible! No index or glossary, lots of fluffy rules with no real clarification.
Each to their own, however, i'm one of these idiots who play board games to get away from the computer. Apps are an instant no. No matter how good the game looks. It's just a stupid principle and I'll die on this hill... missing all the fun app games...
I didn't realize that I was going to become a playtester when I became a KS backer for this game. I usually give a game at least a 2nd try before passing judgement but sold it ASAP even at a loss despite it being KS-exclusive. Most disappointed KS project I backed. Looking forward to my copy of Destinies to wash away the foul taste this game left behind.
@@LeeKenshin7 Journeys in Middle Earth. I don't have Tainted Grail and I'm one of the few outliers that doesn't like Gloomhaven. I played it solo for awhile after my group decided to stop playing it but i just didn't like it. I prefer a more random fun type of dungeon crawl (more like an rpg style) and I just didn't like the card play and puzzly nature. I've taken a break from journeys in middle earth (to play destinies) but it was the first one I really enjoyed solo. To be fair I'm not a solo gamer and I still prefer journeys co op more but it is fun solo. Destinies is the first game I think I would actually PREFER solo though. I don't usually like solo board games because if I'm playing solo I'd rather play a video game but destinies almost feels like a fun adventure video game. Right now I'd rate it an 8 but as the campaign unfolds and when I get to expansions I can only see it going up
This, honestly, seems really mediocre, with nothing to really stand out among other adventure/sandbox games. All throughout the explanation of the game, I saw nothing that caught my attention to go "oh that's a new/interesting idea!"
I may be in the minority here, but I'm just not a fan of games that used apps. When I play board games I like to disconnect from tech which is why I'm picking to play a board game. And I know Tom doesn't care if he can play a game 3 years later, but to me I love to pull out old games I own and play them. I have a game I purchased 25 years ago, and I still pull it out and play. Any game that requires an app to play, I pass.
It's awesome then that there are thousands of games released each year that do not use apps. So far, I've enjoyed the few app-assisted games that I have except for this one. There are even games, like Gloomhaven, that I use 3rd party apps for upkeep and wouldn't want to otherwise. But in the end, only about 5% of my game collection I use an app for.
Not putting down anybody who uses Apps or their games, but im the same, im a complete luddite, and want to get away from technology and after books and comics my favourite way is board games.. i normally stop watching soon as an App is mentioned, cos its not for me, but the game looked interesting and Tom is always entertaining. I hope the App gets sorted for those who are fans tho ...
I guess what I'm trying to say, I don't mind when games use apps, if they also have a way to not use the app and still play. Like it's optional. This one seems that you need an app to play, unless I missed something, which means that for somebody like me, I wouldn't buy it.
They cancelled my pledge, so I guess a rate of 1 star is too much for this game. It should be 0 star rate because of the incompetent owner/designer/publisher.
Too bad about this. It's not that it's bad, it's that it wasn't executed correctly. That's too bad. Needs better management. Better LEADERSHIP. Guildhall studios, advertise and get a hungry tiger of a leader who makes all this go away. You'll hate him or her, but you'll never get a review like this.
Tom, your review was 100% our experience. We love this game but the rulebook is atrocious and the app could be so much more.
I haven't opened my boxes yet, and won't for a while. I really hope Guildhall does the right thing and 1) finishes the app, 2) sends every backer an updated rulebook and corrected game components.
Have the full Kickstarter. Tom nailed this review summary; both in enthusiasm for the potential and in the practical, honest current-state of the game
Can you fight the other player pirates?
@@todddonaldson885 yes you can. It works a little different than fighting npcs but it is possible.
I got the All-In pledge for this one, so I have a bit of an emotional investment in this. I totally expected there to be issues with the app on Day 1, that's the most unsurprising part about any new technology that comes out, so I could deal with that. I'm still hoping that the app will be worked on and will grow into something more entertaining.
But that rulebook, man, it needs a second edition ASAP. The online FAQ is almost as long as the original rulebook; that screams poor QA. There are game-changing rules in the FAQ that aren't in the original rulebook. For example, if you're "allied" with one of the NPC factions, you win the game if that faction completes their objective.
Speaking of allies, the original rulebook doesn't define what "allied", "neutral", and "hostile" mean. Again, that's game-changing information! My first playthrough was a 2-player game and it turned into a co-op adventure because we had no idea how to win without the NPCs growing out of control. Knowing how to turn the NPCs to "allied" or "neutral" is super important.
Thanks for this, I have it on my shelf and was waiting for feedback on the app. The reason it says scan is because the original design was to scan the cards, but they had technical issues and dropped it. The app was very rushed and even fell a week or two behind delivery so people couldn’t even play the game they’d received.
That said, I can wait a year to play it as I have plenty on my plate for now. Looking forward to it actually because I love sandbox games!
I have this game from KS. The review is pretty spot on. I'll just add that the expansion adds a lot of replay value. With the core you have 6 different combinations of enemy factions. With the expansion added in you have 35 (if my math is right...). Not regetting getting it, as I'm painting the bosses right now, and they are a lot of fun to paint.
First board game on Kickstarter I actually regret investing in. And now they have a bunch of games lost in shipment that they are having to mitigate and refund random backers on. This project is now in the “nightmare” category.
Wow!
Good review, it did take some time and googling to find out how to play. But after out first game, it became much clearer. Indeed a lot of room for improvement but also already a lot of fun playing!
After Forgotten Waters, which I think was very solid right out of the gate and then leveraged the app portion to continually extend content (rather than having to fix major bugs), this was a major let down. When copies arrived to people's doors, they had to wait weeks for the app to be available, let alone ready.
This sharply contrasts my enthusiasm for app driven games. I love them, in general, but the way this rolled out shows how *not* to do app driven games, no matter how clever they're intended to be.
I'll let it sit for a year and try it again, but I'd honestly rather pull out World of Yo-Ho than this right now...
I'm kind of glad I'm backed up on getting games to the table. Gives this game time to simmer, and hopefully by the time my group gets to it, it'll have it's issues addressed.
It’s a year later. Any update? How is it feeling now?
Tom is right on the money with his review. I haven't brought this to the table yet as it's too clunky in it's current form.
I would love to see this get the Myth treatment with a 2.0 sooner rather then later and a cheap upgrade kit for those of us who kick-started the game already
Great review as always. Has the rulebook and app gotten better? I was considering backing but again, i might reconsider since your comments on the app kinda killed the buzz for me. I also felt the visual feedback to be on the poor side - appears confusing at times. =/
Well it's just over a year since this video was posted and a new Kickstarter campaign has just launched, with new expansions and an update to the base game - specifically the rulebook and app. I wonder if this will push this from an "almost" to an "excellent" for Tom :)
Nice Tabasco Tie!
the rulebook is the main problem. I read it 3 times, and didn't know if i play my first game the right way. Singelplayer is brutal and not winable
There is a very good way to fix the solo by allowing 1 ‘free’ challenge on an npc in addition to your normal move + action
@@MrTobyandersson thats exactly how I handle it as well.
"I almost kind of wish they had used different art for that."
WHAT?! HOW DARE YOU!!!
"Like here they're smiling at you, and here they're sneering at you."
Oh? Oh. Yeah. Sorry. You're right. Sorry. I thought you meant... nevermind. It's nothing. You're right.
I couldn't agree more with Tom on this one (and that's rare!) - the initial experience for me as soon as I got the game from KS was...meh. Too many things (especially in the app) needed finetuning - it's almost as if they released the physical components too quickly (and not looking too closely at the rulebook either, I agree) before making sure the app is working as it expected. I too packed it up for now and will revisit in a year.
I agree. The rules for play (especially solo) are difficult to understand. I imagine the app will get better with time but if I can't understand the rules, it's going to make it harder for me to get it to the table. The game is beautiful though.
Please bring back the time stamps for the different sections of the review. They were so helpful to skip through to Final Thoughts.
Heya Tom. Have you had a chance to go back and revisit this one?
Felt the same about the game. So much of it is cool it just falls short.
Been waiting for this review and I LOVE this game. And am FURIOUS at how atrocious the rulebook and app are. It's a ton of fun that gets bogged down by those two essential but half baked components. Fix it, fix it, fix it.
what is the name of the other pirate game that you told about?
asked the same... no idea :(
Forgotten waters
I feel like this game should have aspired to the production level of Xia. That would have been so epic. In terms of a random map, a more imaginative ship board and ship upgrading etc.
Excellent review. Thank you.
32 developers! THIRTY TWO! Goes to show you don’t need a ton of developers to make a great game. In fact you figure with this many developers they’d QC a lot better. It was definitely rushed.
Hmmm wait a year and hope this will be decent as this is a KS early access?
Or just play World of YoHo and Forgotten Waters which are already great.
Should mature nicely throughout the year as Covid had a big impact on the app. And just like Chronicles of Crime Millienium, I can wait for the app content to keep up. Also if you check the kickstarter page... check out the vast amount of peeps working on this title... it's certainly no indie!
I notice some similarities with Merchants and Marauders in the rules.
Forgotten water rocks man!
So, a year or so on from the video and these comments, who still plays this? Anyone’s perceptions changed? Did the developer sort the app?
Games with apps, it often seems the app is the weakest part.
App design and board game design definitely are different beasts....being able to do one doesn't mean you'll do well at the other. I think a lot of app-assisted games assume that or aren't willing to pay enough for top-notch app developers (or their time, at least...I assume most apps for games get rushed).
@@bricelory9534 I agree. In software development, User Experience is an entire design unit and field onto itself, and that is where most of these apps lack.
The app definitely needs some work but the rulebook I found to be the main problem. Ruined the experience for me.
It seems like a lot of the app-integrated games primarily use the app to deliver choice based text. That has the be the most boring use of that technology possible.
That's possibly true, but it also works very compared to using cards (see Dead of Winter).
I know this is based in the Caribbean but am I the only one who thinks this board looks very similar to merchants and marauders?
Quite a bit is fixed here, but I'm with Tom; too many loose ends right now (I've had 3 plays of 2-4 players): gamefound.com/projects/zachary-weisman/sea-of-legends/faq#/
So forgotten waters vs sea of legends vs merchants and marauders vs world of Yo-Ho. Best sandbox pirate game of the 4?
I wouldn't really call forgotten Waters sandbox but it's by far the best game out of those 4. The other 3 aren't anywhere near my top 100 games and forgotten Waters is my number 5
Jamaica Vs Forgotten Waters... I just can't decide. I love both. I've also got "Pirates! Extraordinary Adventures"... It's a pretty good Jamaica clone. I actually use the wooden pirate meeples from that game to play Forgotten Waters, because I hate using the fiddly standees, especially in a 2 player game, they work perfectly and you can even use one each on the infamy track. I upgraded the dice and now the game has a much more premium feel.
Forgotten Waters is on top. However, we still enjoy Yo-Ho with its unique mechanic and integration of your actual phone. That app was made a while back and is far more superior than Sea of Legends app. Yes I know. They do two different things. However, SoL should have technically been easier to develop versus Yo-Ho. And yes...we call it “SoL” now. I’m sure you can figure out why.
@@azzy2001 Jamaica is a fun little racing game but imo it's not even close. FW by an absolute mile
Forgotten Waters is the best, BUT Sea of Legends COULD GET THERE if the app wasn't so clunky. I dislike how FW is "co-op until it isn't" and how you're NOT the captain. Sea of Legends let's you be the captain!!
The "lovers" is such a weird part of the game lol
Just played this tonight and I loved it but 100% agree about the rulebook... terrible! No index or glossary, lots of fluffy rules with no real clarification.
Why the white wall is still dirty :((
It's wood effect.
If this wasnt app driven, i would be on board.
Check out the Pirate Republic.
Each to their own, however, i'm one of these idiots who play board games to get away from the computer. Apps are an instant no. No matter how good the game looks. It's just a stupid principle and I'll die on this hill... missing all the fun app games...
don't think its stupid. some people don't enjoy games with conflict, its simply a matter of preference
I didn't realize that I was going to become a playtester when I became a KS backer for this game. I usually give a game at least a 2nd try before passing judgement but sold it ASAP even at a loss despite it being KS-exclusive. Most disappointed KS project I backed. Looking forward to my copy of Destinies to wash away the foul taste this game left behind.
Destinies is great. Its super simple but also just really fun. It's 1 of 2 games I've actually enjoyed playing solo.
@@cartergreen2309 now I'm curious. What's the other one? I've solo Tainted Grail and Gloomhaven.
Just received Destinies today and played the first scenario. It was amazing. And the app is perfect and easy to use.
@@LeeKenshin7 Journeys in Middle Earth. I don't have Tainted Grail and I'm one of the few outliers that doesn't like Gloomhaven. I played it solo for awhile after my group decided to stop playing it but i just didn't like it. I prefer a more random fun type of dungeon crawl (more like an rpg style) and I just didn't like the card play and puzzly nature. I've taken a break from journeys in middle earth (to play destinies) but it was the first one I really enjoyed solo. To be fair I'm not a solo gamer and I still prefer journeys co op more but it is fun solo. Destinies is the first game I think I would actually PREFER solo though. I don't usually like solo board games because if I'm playing solo I'd rather play a video game but destinies almost feels like a fun adventure video game. Right now I'd rate it an 8 but as the campaign unfolds and when I get to expansions I can only see it going up
@@jessicaw2137 app is absolutely phenomenal. But I expected that after chronicles of crime to be fair
I think that world of yo ho works better
Sadly one year later….there comes this game called sleeping gods…,
I realy dont agree with you when you say thet the app should take care off more thing! The we use the app the better it is!
This, honestly, seems really mediocre, with nothing to really stand out among other adventure/sandbox games. All throughout the explanation of the game, I saw nothing that caught my attention to go "oh that's a new/interesting idea!"
This is one reason I never do Kickstarter
I hate bad rulebooks!
I may be in the minority here, but I'm just not a fan of games that used apps. When I play board games I like to disconnect from tech which is why I'm picking to play a board game. And I know Tom doesn't care if he can play a game 3 years later, but to me I love to pull out old games I own and play them. I have a game I purchased 25 years ago, and I still pull it out and play. Any game that requires an app to play, I pass.
It's awesome then that there are thousands of games released each year that do not use apps. So far, I've enjoyed the few app-assisted games that I have except for this one. There are even games, like Gloomhaven, that I use 3rd party apps for upkeep and wouldn't want to otherwise. But in the end, only about 5% of my game collection I use an app for.
There's plenty of games that don't use apps luckily, I'm glad there's variety for everyone.
Not putting down anybody who uses Apps or their games, but im the same, im a complete luddite, and want to get away from technology and after books and comics my favourite way is board games.. i normally stop watching soon as an App is mentioned, cos its not for me, but the game looked interesting and Tom is always entertaining. I hope the App gets sorted for those who are fans tho ...
I guess what I'm trying to say, I don't mind when games use apps, if they also have a way to not use the app and still play. Like it's optional. This one seems that you need an app to play, unless I missed something, which means that for somebody like me, I wouldn't buy it.
Don't worry, you're not alone. I have the same reasons...
They cancelled my pledge, so I guess a rate of 1 star is too much for this game. It should be 0 star rate because of the incompetent owner/designer/publisher.
Too bad about this. It's not that it's bad, it's that it wasn't executed correctly. That's too bad. Needs better management. Better LEADERSHIP. Guildhall studios, advertise and get a hungry tiger of a leader who makes all this go away. You'll hate him or her, but you'll never get a review like this.
What? That doesn't make any sense. It's perfectly possible to get a great leader and not hate them.