What Game Of Thrones Kinda Forgot
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2019
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Welcome to the only video about the eighth season of Game Of Thrones on the internet. Let’s look at how the rushed character arcs, and other writing decisions this season, turn the themes of the story inside out.
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Princess Bride, not Princess Diaries. Fun fact: In real life, I've mixed these two up every time I've ever mentioned them, so no surprise I slipped up here.
Fucking boss video! The best analysis I've seen... and I've watched a few. Great job!
Just Write princes? lmao
I heard this, and I immediately scrolled down to check that the top comments would be corrections. :p
I'm glad I'm not the only one with this problen
Didn't even catch that, too busy agreeing with everything you're saying.
To quote Jenny Nicolson, the worst thing an ending can do is make you feel stupid for caring in the first place.
No1 rule of story telling: elicit emotion.
If you want surprise and tricks: go see a magic act.
Me to the abomination that was forever lovely...
I mean... it wouldn't surprise me of G.R.R. Martin were to pull the same trick in the books. His other works are not exactly known for their hopeful takeaways.
Their rushed wrap-up really "Lost" me.
Ugh, so true....
"Who has a better story than Bran The Broken...."
Everyone else.
Jon Snow an Daenarys Targaryan
Brann as king is absolutely ridiculous an as far as story's go Daenarys an Jon have great story's with Jon being the one True King an Brann took it away from him Branns story is visions from the past and future an traveling around the North beyond the wall talking to tree's
Podrick Payne.
Bran, was not seen for an entire season, and the rest of the way was garbage
Idk I skipped his parts lmao
I find it hilarious that they rushed the end of Game of Thrones so they could move on to Star Wars, only to get dropped from the Star Wars project because they tanked Game of Thrones.
Lesson learned: Never rush a project because you think you're going to do something "better" after. Your lack of respect for your current project WILL be noticed.
They never rushed for Star Wars. The ending of GoT was announced 2 years before the Star Wars deal. Of course the talks must have happened before we found out about it but not 2 damn years before. If you track back their older interviews you'll see that they were always talking about making 7 seasons. They actually made 3 more episodes than they originally planned.
I’m in the entertainment industry and we can talk about prospective projects as long as 5 years out to fruition. It could’ve been anything. Their lack of thoughtfulness and attention to detail is disturbing. I loved the first few seasons, but it started to fall as they forgot the smaller plot lines and didn’t think about how everything connected. Fate is such an intertwined theme in this show and they throw it out the window in later seasons.
Both the writers are complete arrogant twats. After ruining the season and the legacy the show had they dug their own graves. They didn't deserve Star Wars, Disney did the right thing telling them to fuck off.
Yeah exactly!
@@MatiZ815 still when they started got they talked about how important it was to portray the story properly that grrm himself wouldn’t let them work on it unless they guessed who Jon’s mom was before it was revealed and most haven’t gotten or figured out at that time. Just to rush it to work on other projects. Regardless of it it was Star Wars or not they fully admitted to wanting to work on other projects and that’s why they wanted to move on when if they truly cared about got like they said when they started on it then they would never do it this kind of injustice I can garuntee. It’s horrendous what they did in season 8 and literally everyone’s criticism is basically the exact same.
I love how Bran's actor thought the writers were pranking him when they showed him the script
They truly were
TBF that would have been an S-level prank. Just hand every main actor a copy of the script where they end up on the Iron Throne.
Morale of the story is to seriously consider replacing your writers when they begin to eyeball other jobs/work.
Pretty much.
Hard to do when your writers are also your producers
@@jaxon_hill *oof*
@@jaxon_hill also those mothafakas had the rights so no one could replace them
YES, THANK YOU
GRRM might have killed your favorite character, but D&D killed your favorite show
Well said
Yash Kshirsagar D&D killed my favorite character and my favorite show. They killed my favorite characters in more ways than one. Both physically and metaphorically. They killed off Ser Barristan the Bold and even Varys quite needlessly, they killed every characters intelligence and motivations/arcs. At least GRRM writes sound, developed characters until their very end, at least their deaths serve some narrative purpose rather than cheap shocks.
Yash Kshirsagar who thinks they’ll be 2 idiot characters that turn up in the newest books who resemble Dumb and Dumber
@Rolling Guy #1 Well it seems D&D have no clue how to finish a story, at least we know Star Wars stories never end.
@@YouCanCallMeReTro Well fucking said.
Yara:
*came from a place with democracy*
Also Yara:
*laughing on Sam's idea*
Also approve Sansa's independence and five minutes earlier she was asking for Snow's head. Nor does she claim his own independence.
A fucking joke.
Well that's not entirely true. The Kingsmoot took place for the first time in thousands of years when they elected Euron. It was quite a big deal that they were even doing it, because the Ironborn were always ruled by either the Greyjoys or the Hoares.
Yara comes from a place of oligarchy. The kingsmoot is decided by nobles and captains of the Iron Islands, not by the mere population.
@@johnbishop9621 arguably more democratic than the iron throne
@@johnbishop9621 Just like in ancient Greece not everyone voted, only the people considered citizens, so landowners. Yet nobody thinks that wasn't a democracy. In the Iron Islands nobles do get to vote, nobles will probably also be captains but most of the other captains are ordinary folk, the best warriors... anyone worthy could raise up to be captain
"She (Daenerys) executed people who didn't obey her. So does everyone in this universe." THANK U! That's what I said!
I know right but people tell me somehow it's different cause she did it... Meanwhile Ned stark executes a scared man for telling the truth at the begining of the series but he has a cock so it's fine I guess...
homunculus7 It’s not about having or not having a cock. Sansa fed Ramsay to the dogs, Arya killed the Freys and cut their pieces into a pie yet somehow nobody called them crazy or mad. It’s D&D bias against Dany that make this travesty happens.
Yes as look at what Cersie did in the end of season 6 an didn't care about her son she knew he would see the explosion an knew Margery was in there an they wouldn't let him go to the trial so he see's what happens from his window he was young an his mother was doing everything on his say so but that was a lie an her uncle knew it so Cersie got rid of them all so she could walk those steps an make herself Qween so how is she better than Daenarys Cersie didn't care about anyone except for herself I hate her an have from the beginning same with Sansa they are both spoilt an selfish
did Jon kill anybody in that fashion, because they didn't obey him? I can't remember Jon ever doing that. has Robb done that? outside of the lines of war? like the fighting was over when Dany killed the Tarly's and she had the clear victory. she didn't need to execute them for simply not doing as she told them. outside of literally being in an actual fight that's still going on, I can't remember Jon or Robb killing people like that. then the point about Dany destroying all of King's Landing and setting it on fire, he says "she attacked the city which needed to happen". attacking the city is one thing, burning the entire city is something else. let alone the fact that she burned parts of the city with innocent people for no reason, while her main enemy was Cersei who was standing right in the Red Keep. why not just fly to the Red Keep and burn that to the ground itself? nah, not the same
@@homunculus7 Ned executed him for breaking his vows of the Night's Watch and deserting. cruel but that is the punishment. and laws exist for a reason. Dany killed people outside of the bounds of law when she didn't need to. the Tarly's were defeated and she didn't need to kill them. could have taken them prisoner. Varys' death was understandable since it was direct treason and plotting against her. but let's not forget the irrational killing of the masters like Hizdahr's father. answering one crime with another does nothing good, clearly. and she never really learned from all her "experience" in Slaver's Bay
"George R.R. Martin was on board for as many as 13 seasons"
Sly old dog, tryin' to buy himself more time to finish them tomes
😂😂😂
He was on board for 13 seasons because he also knew it was the only way to finish the story properly with the same consistently brilliant story telling.
@@MsBAustralia facts!
Unfortunately those actors wouldn't of stayed around for 13 seasons. Most of them anyway. That is a lot of wear and tear. A lot of the actors want to move on to other projects and other things. The Walking Dead is a prime example with. The actress and actor who play Maggie and Rick wanted to move on. As well as the young boy who played Carl.
People have lives these shows go on for too long.
George RR Martin 13 seasons was unrealistic he was just stalling for time. Shows start to get overly dull with that many episodes and seasons. I think season 7 and 8 should of had 10 episodes a apiece to help flesh out some of those plot threads to give them a better filler behind them.
@@davidcici11Evolution everybody is jumping off the shark. its quite obvious, the actors of this show were so dedicated. You know nothing.
my new favourite activity is watching youtube vids of people ripping apart got s8
Theres just so many of them. It's a never ending source of fun
Metoo!!!!!
@@captainmarvelous7678 for sure anyone top Mauler or Wolfs Tolkien would rape Martin rant?
After ten years of emotional investment, people need closure. The show didn't give us any, so... watching vids of people ripping into D&D will have to be it.
This honestly has been me the last 3 weeks
The iron throne is gone. It's only fair Bran should be king since he brought his own seat 🙄
Why this savage comment hasn't gotten more likes is beyond me.
But Danny said she wanted to break the wheel...
i can,t stop laughing dude
@@bigfudge2031
🤷🏻♀️ His throne is on wheels
@@bigfudge2031 this is peak comedy. Love it
I would’ve loved a scene where Jon, Jamie, Daenerys and Gendry all fighting the Night King at the same time. A Stark, A Lannister, A Baratheon, and a Targaryen all fight together even though they were all fighting each other through the series.
And then old die, then the king of the night kills everyone, converts the other two dragons and with all of them they will crush what is left of Kings Landing. The End. Moral ... better join all against climate change because otherwise, game over. A better ending than this nonsense.
kinda sounds like something those people in the bars would cheer for
I count 2 Targaryen 0 Stark
Gendry? Should we bring Hot Pie too? Gendry wasn't supposed to be a central character in that way, they just were like "shit there are no more real Baratheons left so we have to shoehorn some relevance in for Gendry"
@@JeanPiFresita dude, harshest. The film is called Game of thrones so the final battle was always going to be between men. Cersei and Dany should've fought the end fight.
"I can never be lord of winterfell, I can never be lord of anything, i'm the 3 eyed raven" - bran :) also bran "what do you think I came all along the way here for?"
The most obvious sign of the shitty writing by far. Even an idiot would see it
Tyrion’s reason to push for Bran is the worst. Just....the worst. Smh
Games of Power yes... really I'd rather if they push for sansa, the reason is if shes the queen the north will bend the knee for good, we'll get a fitting stark to rule because from the start the starks we see are sorta the protagonists. Also shes been in kings landing way longer than any of those people so she might know better how things work there (not that it matters cause everyone is dead)
@Evert van Dalen no
It's as dumb as Bran telling Theon "I'm going to go now" in S8E3. Theon looked so confused. It was laughable. Bran was so completely useless.
Not many seem to talk about it, but Cersei's character really was left on the side. We've never seen her actually ruling or making any decision, attending a council meeting, we've never seen her dealing with the lords and ladies of the court. The show makes it seem like she runs the seven kingdoms by sipping wine with just Qyburn and the Mountain forming the whole government apparatus.
I feel like this is a huge problem also. In the later seasons we really don't see the characters dealing with the consequences of their actions i.e. when Cersei blew up the sept, surely there would have been public outcry? Did other Lords and Ladies in Westeros not care that their Queen was doing mad shit? so dumb
J Magee Yep, if people would riot against that psycho Joffrey they would riot against her.
The entire court system magicaly disapeared back at season... hm, I guess 6?
The queen would stand at the window with a cup of swirling wine, not even a maid to be seen in the freaking castle for episodes.
In a sense, de disapearence of infrastructure background characters mirrors the disapearence of all questionings of "how do that effect the society" from events that appear in the scripts.
Like, the one time the show remembers non protagonists exist, Sansa complains they have no food to feed Danny's huge entourage. But it is treated as her being bitchy instead of her one single moment of thinking like a ruler in the entire show!
Jacopo Abbruscato Agreed!
This is one of my biggest problems with the final season! Or actually since Cersei became queen.
Imagine how “subversive” it would be if Arya jumped at the Night King, he turns around and grabs her, and when she goes to stab him, the Night King just snaps her neck. All that buildup, and it shows that you can still fail.
Bruh, Arya just jumped out of nowhere even tho there was like hundreds of undead around Bran, the Knights Kings general were the most useless motherfuckers lol. If that was how simple it is to kill the knight king by just jumping and stabbing him, they could have avoided this whole battle, baited Bran, had Arya hide in the tree or around bran somewhere covered in snow and just jump and kill him and everything would be over that simple. It should have took more sacrifices, maybe had the Red Women do something useful other than showing her so much in story just to have her light up some wood on fire and swords. That battle was the most boring one in the show even tho it was supposed to be one of the best for how long they hyped it.
If all it takes is switching your knife from hand to hand - Bronn would be a great candidate to kill that mofo. He didn't need 7 seasons of faceless man training and a prophecy to do it either -_-
@@itsnesogaming3217 All of them dying because of a poke in the belly is bullshit already. A cheap and shitty trope.
It would've had the same aftertaste of Oberyn Martell's death and I would've loved it
In my opinion, Arya should have died so that the Night King could have been shown as really the biggest threat of Westeros, and so It could push Jon objective of destroying the Night King even further.
D&D really lost my respect. If they were sick of GoT, they should've passed it on to a successor, not sprint to the end and ruin it.
HBO should've noticed their laziness..
It was like they had to fit all the remaining seasons into 7 episodes. The character building for daenerys has always been pretty good. It was like she was the one ruler and they just made Jon kill her to rush with things.
@@ighways Yeah for real, where were the studio execs stepping in like, "Ummm what the fuck is this script?"
D&D Red Wedding-ed the fans.
@@TonyJBroni they really did
The part I hated most about Danaerys’ arc is that through the entire show the writers were showing the theme was “Your past does not define you” then in the matter of less than two episodes, they flip flopped and made her arc mean “You can’t escape your past.” Truly awful of Benioff and Weiss to put aside the good writing of the early show just because they’ve gotten tired and want to move on
Well said!
Where did you get that message, exactly ? I mean, she does tell Tyrion and Jon that she's not her father, but that's hardly ever central to her character.
Except they didn't make her arc mean that at all...
@@Corenair2 She Literally says that most of the show, and when She's called Breaker of chains, Mother of Her people, For most of the books/show she's shown trying to Show how she was better than her Mad father. But For Some reason, D&D we're like Well we gotta make her evil and Flipped it 100% on Script and alienated her turn to the Targaryen madness. I mean Vary's character got butchers a man who literally didn't speak up to keep himself alive for most of the seasons somehow turns heart and admits to treason ???
it's even worse than that. It's not her past Daenerys can't apparently escape. It's her genes. Scientifically it's extremely dubious (no proof mental illness is genetic); narratively it's extremely boring (I mean, what's the point of telling such a story?); humanly, as depressing as it goes (we can't do anything to change ourselves, not because we cannot rebel against our parents, society, whatever we've suffered, but because we have been genetically designed so - machines are like that, not humans). So the show final season's main problem isn't just shit writing, it's a shit idea of human beings
The shows motto was "Winter is coming" from the very start. Stories are told about previous winters, how long and cold they were, how inhospitable.
Winter never came. Everyone just forgot about the huge climate shift thats happening. It's the most glaring failure for me.
Well that's just your opinion. /s
Exactly! Jamie was leaving King's Landing to head to Winterfell and snow fell on his glove. The next time we see King's Landing there is no snow... what the hell happened?
1. They're "expecting" a long winter. They have no idea if it will be or not in this universe. They just think it will because summer was long. That's how the weather is explained in the books. People just guess how the weather will be because they don't have that kind of science.2. Or maybe they can't work the weather out because of The White Walkers. I always thought it was a weird thing to have such a realistic and gritty World, and then have the laws of physics not work properly (years of endless summers/winters). Then I realized it was down to the magical elements of the story.The bitter winter during the original Long Night was attributed to The White Walkers and The Night King attacking Westeros. So when you see a shoot of grass peeping out of the snow outside the wall in the final scene of Season 8. I think it's safe to say that destroying The White Walkers has allowed the World of ice and fire to now have a normal weather system. The creatures that have power over the cold are destroyed.3. In fact, you could say that the reason the weather was so spurious was down to all of the supernatural elements of the world. Now that all the magical beings have left Westeros or died, nature can get back to normal.
@@deanrichardson5930 Perhaps it's weird to discuss science in a fantasy show, but Westeros is clearly a different planet than Earth. Seasons are dictated by orbit and axial tilt. If the planet Westeros is on has an eccentric orbit, seasons can become irregular and a large axial tilt can cause long seasons. For instance, Winter on Uranus can last 21 earth years.
Perhaps because the previous long winter had to do with the white walkers? Who were now at this point a myth until rediscovered. When the walkers show up so does heavy winter storms. Perhaps with ALL the white walkers being destroyed winters will take a much milder turn. If only real life climate change was as easily remedied by stabbing an ice ghost.
Honestly I didn’t like Ayra’s ending. She spent so long trying to get back to her family to then trying to be Nobody to realising that she will always be a Stark. And then her ending is leaving her family for a life on the sea (cause there’s no guarantee there’s land to the west) and like she’s never even given any indication she likes sea life aka fascination with the iron born way of living. Really it would have made more sense for me at least for Ayra becoming the master of whispers since you know she can disguise herself to be anyone meaning all secrets are attainable to her and it actually uses her skill set.
D&D never understood Arya's character. They made her all about revenge. Book Arya is mostly about trying to find a home. When she kept Needle, D&D said it was because it was her tool for revenge. In the books, it's because it reminds her of her family
Excellent point.
@@jaimelannister1797 wtf how could they think it was her tool for revenge and only that, what a pair of idiots. The way it was showed in the series clearly made it look like it was because it reminded her of home. If that's the case, then everyone involved in that scene except Dumb and Dumber must be thanked for it.
master of whispers ...
Bran the omnipresent 3-eyed-raven is the king why would he ever need that lol
I'm actually ok with her ending.
Her story kind of amounted to...everything she thought she wanted...was exactly what she didn't really need.
I mean, she wants to be a warrior of some kind. But can't she's a girl. She ends up becoming the biggest hero of the story. Kills the Night King...then realizes...this kind of praise and glory...she didn't need it.
She wants vengeance for what has happened to her family. Gets all the way to a burning castle to kill the queen and is convinced...it wasn't actually necessary.
She's finally reunited with the family she strived so long to see once again...and upon finding them...they aren't the people she left behind...and realizes neither is she. She...doesn't need them...she's survived without them...and ...she'll contine to survive...because when death comes close she simply tell it, not today.
I think that sums up who she is. Just like her direwolf was a reflection of her...her direwolf saw her again, loved her...but realized...I don't need you anymore Ayra...thank you...but I've moved on.
This is exactly what Arya later does as well. Perfectly parallel.
I kind of love it. And a pirate swashbuckling Arya just freaking fits.
HA! Im glad someones caught that too: why show the burning of the throne, clearly a thematic scene.... and have a new king 2 weeks later?
@@Hilo6007 **mind blown**
@@Hilo6007 bhj
There's an article where D&D say it wasn't thematic at all and Drogon just missed Jon 🙍♀️🤦♀️
@@nomomoe8727 Link that. I find it impossible to believe they said something that dumb. I guarantee no one said that lol (about just missing Jon). I have no doubt they thought it was just a cool visual that meant nothing, but Drogon straight up missing? No way
It is all very much George's ending and that's been confirmed, by HBO and by brans actor; issac Hempstead wright.
And interview on usa 60 mins, his ending is the same and I see why d&D stopped caring, cayse they realised the ending sucked & was impossible to film in the time... just like how the books will never be wrapped up!!! George also admitted he will never finish them.. he is a fraud!
Benioff: Dany kinda forgot-
Literally everyone else: It's free real estate.
Right???
CrudyHorse4 So sick of this meme
This meme is the best thing to come from Season 8. That and the amazing costume designs, 'specially Danys wardrobe.
@@b.jr.7816 Same. Both of them. X just kinda forgot about Y is still fresh though.
@@b.jr.7816 but the meme is free real estate.
Expected a great ending?? Well the expectation has been subverted.
"Game of Thrones fans around the world are shocked by the latest GoT plot twist where another fan-favorite - the show itself - gets murdered just before the final episode."
Which is a good thing by definition. You're just salty because you wanted it to end differently, JW!
Agreed, I was fine with the story choosing to subvert ideas over having a final meaning. Not every story has to have a final meaning or happy ending, it can have an ambiguous meaning to it, and let’s not forget that we’ve as a society rewarded GOT’s storywriters over and over again by coming back for the twists, and it’s not unthinkable to imagine them choosing this ending thinking it’s what’s going to blow it up one last time for that precious headline-ability
Jazkahn +
Jonathan Rouse there’s nuanced, understandable, and earned subversion, and then there’s subversion just for the sake of subversion. Something shouldn’t be congratulated just for going against the stream, that’s pure contrarianism. “Aha you thought we would do x, but instead we are doing y!” It’s just about as lazy as being predictable. it should be congratulated for going against the stream *and* pulling it off well despite it being on less treaded on ground.
I’d much rather watch a well put together by the books movie that has great attention to detail (a la Fury Road), than pure low effort bait and switch (which isn’t exactly unexpected since the series is known for it by know). If you can do odd story beats in a clever manner that fits all the pieces together like a puzzle you get the best of both worlds.
she was sad and killed everyone then she died
pretty much Dany's arch in season 8
she was robbed
@@laiasantiago3480 at gunpoint
Cersei’s arch too I guess
What makes me the most upset about Daenerys turning mad so quickly is the fact that if we look beyond her claim to the throne, she´s an abuse victim who was essentially sold as a sex slave but she still kept her idealism. She was beaten down over and over and was questioned every single time she tried to make meaningful change. And she rose against all odds. Despite being a girl (which, considering her canon age, she was), despite being abused by her brother and later husband, despite being under threat of murder and having no meaningful power, she made changes in a world so stuck in its old ways.
But we can´t have that. So she was declared mad and murdered. What message does that send, especially alongside Sansa literally saying her being abused was necessary for her to grow?
It would have worked had sansa's character been allowed to juxtapose against dany. Buuuut they failed at that.
Terrible writing all around tbh. And the video is wrong, season 6 had trash writing as well
Sansa saying that genuinely enraged me, are D&D that fucking stupid and disrespectful
YES! Finally someone who points exactly why I felt agony and sadness about how they ended the character. The girl was revolutionary, but they ended her like a mad tyrant from the past. And the thing about Sansa is really disturbing, because she was not only abused, but *heavily* abused, she was emotionally and physically tortured, imprisoned, and raped many times over. She went hell on Earth (for me season 5, before the two last ones were released, was the worst season because all of it's terrible happenings). And to simply say that she needed it to grow is not only ridiculous, but almost criminal, like they're trying to justify it and put it like, in the end, a good thing. Disgusting.
THIS THIS THIS
Entering an arranged marriage to become a queen is not being sold as a sex slave. Sorry.
The story really feels like a couple of writers that stopped caring.
yeah, b & b. fuck their future projects tbh
"This is season 8 and it gets booooring. Can we end this?" - "Alright, let's end it just here. Roll a dice to determin who kills the Night King and who gets the throne."
Basically thats what happened really
Their biggest motivation behind adapting the books into the show was so that they could film the Red Wedding. And they were done with it by season 3. Is it any wonder they completely stopped caring near the end?
Apparently they chose the 13 episode deal over the 20 episode deal because they were offered the rights for the next Star Wars trilogy and wanted to get GoT done and over with
They literally threw seven seasons, books, story arch’s and character development out of the window. God I‘m so mad.
I'm kinda sorry that everyone watched it on the TV. Would be better if everyone stops caring after 1st episode and just torrent the rest of the season giving 0 ratings to the D&D's child so no one would ever give them a chance to write ANYTHING themselves without autor's narrative.
FACTS!
I so agree. Fuming here.
You literally don't know what the word "literally" means.
Harry BuddhaPalm Go ahead, enlighten me then. English isn‘t my mother tongue.
Game of thrones: no character is immortal
Also game of thrones: gives John Snow impenetrable plot armour
remember when arya was stabbed in the gut couple of times and and didnt bleed out? guess the blood just pushed itself back inside eh?
@@niedermitderjagd1968 Jon was immortalized as early as season 3. Arya came a bit later. Then oddly Grey Worm. Each of these characters took MORTAL WOUNDS and survived with no fucking explanation.
Jon was injured in several scraps north of the wall, and just simply walked them off. Specifically while killing the mutineers at Craster's Keep. Grey Worm takes a spear in the ribs fighting off the Sons of Harpy when Ser Beristan dies. And Arya, as mentioned, gets slashed across the belly and then stabbed multiple times, looses like 3 gallons of blood, but still lives.
I remember reading somewhere that George R. R. Martin found writing the Red Wedding in the books emotionally devastating. He literally skipped it, wrote the rest of the book, and then went back drafted that chapter because it pained him so much to write such a gruesome and painful moment for characters he had built up.
But he felt that the Red Wedding needed to happen because the story was taking the shape of "Ned Stark's son rises to glory, avenges his father's death and becomes king." He knew that this ran thematically in the opposite direction of his books, which were meant to subvert that familiar story and follow less heroic narratives.
I think that says a lot - Robb's death is neither tragic nor pitiful, but the logical outcome of his actions. And it pained Martin to do so, but he knew what subversion and commitment to the story's themes actually meant. D&D on the other hand had an almost sick glee with their subversions, as though they were meant to be entertaining above all else. Story twists stank of being pleased with themselves, at how "subversive" they were. Born out of cheap thrills, combined with disinterest in the characters or the themes their stories explored. Dany is the big example, but I feel like Arya is more emblematic. Arya's journey (for Martin) is a look at how death affects young, naive children. At the start of it, she wants to learn to sword-fight and go beyond the simplistic expectations people have of her as a girl. And when she's forced to put those skills in the real world, she's good at them, but the pain and isolation stunt her and shut her off from humanity. This gets taken to the extreme with the faceless men; committing yourself to a life fueled by grief and refusing to mourn to escape pain, turns you into something that's not human. Arya learns to survive, but becomes a shell of a person. But by S7, all these themes are thrown out the window and the show is just like "she's a cool badass assassin who can take down anyone! All the skills of the faceless men but no tragic side effects!" Goes from a play on many different tropes and nuanced character development to something shallow but COOL
I 100% agree with you.
I'm writing my first book in a series of novels and I had to rewrite it and alter a great deal because I made the enemy way, way, way too evil to the point where it was causing me emotional distress and it's been over seven years since then and I'm still working on it.
I've had to tone the cruelty of the enemy down for the sake of my own sanity.
Ur completely right
But we need more strong female characters!!1!
they turned a traumatized child soldier into a “im not like the other girly girls” ninja
@@dragondude9637 what did you originally make them do that made you so sick?
I can't see Bronn even wanting to be Master of Coin. Hasn't his entire arc been about wanting to get his payday and retire?
Why did the rest of the lords allow him to be the lord of the Reach? The only one who knew of this agreement was Tyrion, and he was in prison. Bronn really didn't need to be in this last season frankly.
Well as master of coin he would have a constant pay day similar to how Little finger abused the position. But another plot hole is the Iron Bank, who do they claim from? Bran? Lol.
@@geoffchappell2184 Title of great lord was obviously not Tyrion's or Jaime's to give. Even if Tyrion did his best trying to persuade the King, that's entirely up to the King. Bronns previous deeds got him knighthood and some land, going to Winterfell and threatening King's hand doesn't exactly merit even more advancement.
@@Peteruspl Bronn's arc in AFFC is told entirely secondhand and still manages to be infinitely more clever and enjoyable.
Right the Reach is
the most populous
Has the most fertile land
Has the biggest city
Has the most landed
Has the most coinage
So when the next king is chosen house Black Water can bully every other house. So if we get a GOT prequel guaranteed house Black Water will sit on the iron throne
Why does Bran need a master of whisperers when HE CAN SEE LITERALLY EVERYTHING?!!
He kinda forgot about it?
Bran cannot literally see everything. He can literally see ANYTHING that he puts his mind to. But he has to know about it, and have reason to consider it worth his looking into. So he needs a master of whispers to bring things to his attention. He found out about Jon's heritage only when Sam brought the issue up and then Bran went looking into the past. But he does not automatically know every thing.
PseudoPearl Why does an immortal NEED, anything?
@@ikasuki1 I had to wipe the monitor because of the soda that got sprayed all over it.
@@stevencolatrella3257Thank you. Season 7 & 8 have a lot of problems, but some people like to conjure up some more without thought or reason. Same with the "RE-USED GHOST PAT SCENE SEASON 4 WTF" idiocy.
I'll tell you what would have subverted my expectations, if the Night King snapped Arya's neck like a twig. Now that was something I wouldn't have expected
what would have subverted my expectations would have been if Arya suffered FUCKING ANY SACRIFICES FROM THAT AT ALL. Bran got touched by Night's King in a fucking dream, HE WASN"T EVEN FUCKING THERE, it was a mental projection to a thousand years in the past, and it still marked him. And really fucked things up at the Three-Eyed Raven's hidden cave.
Arya's physical body got grabbed by the throat in the current convergence of space time and there was nothing.
I was laughing my ass off when Arya was in danger. I knew there was 100% chance she would survive.
That would've been kinda fun tbh. Arya is a trained assassing, but at the same time she's still really young - she might actually be naive enough to think that she could simply walk up to the apocalypse and kill it with a knife, because that's how she's solved most of her other problems so far. And I feel like death would've been a fitting end for her, at least in the show, cause holy fuck has she done some horrific shit
Big season 1-3 energy
Or, you know, after the Big Bad Night King / Sauron expy dies, you don’t have the Army of Evil die. But instead, the ‘Crown’ of the White Walkers is passed to another. Perhaps the killer of the Walkers becomes the new King and retreates North fighting a mental battle between their former humanity and their new identity as king of the Ice Elves.
Or the White Walker army falls back and we see a council of leaders of the Others discussing who will be their next leader, perhaps showing that, like the Childeren of the Forest, they are an ancient people that where driven from their lands 8.000 years ago by human aggrassors. And that the ‘Long Night’ that Old Nan told us of back in season 1 was not actually the just war of defence but a war of conquest started by human invaders slaughtering White walker babes in their cribs and hunting their childeren because the humans believed them ‘demons’ and ‘evil foreigners’ and the Wall was built by the White Walkers to protect them from the Human Invaders that had come to slaughter their people and take the land that rightfully belonged to the White Walkers
Or a new Night King is selected by a magical process and the Living have to genocide all the White walkers or be genocided themselves.
Or whatever. Anything to comment on the trope of ‘evil king dies, evil empire instantly crumbles, heroes have won the rightous war’
Imagine if the Kingslayer had lived up to his name for a second time and killed the Night King.
I’d be happy if our climate change problem ended as quickly and conveniently as theirs did
It has. Do you read research papers or rely on memes?
@@clydenolet736
So we haven't seen some of the hottest years on record this decade? Oh wait, we have.
So Ice in the Arctic isn't melting? Oh wait, It is.
Westeros just kind of forgot that winter was supposed to be a big deal.
WILLOWS CHANNEL 😂💯
pplr1 well to be fair, we haven’t had any records of the ice caps for centuries. We just assume they stayed the same. So I’m not concerned because just now we have eyes on it and we can’t actually say if it’s never happened worse in the past centuries
Dany kinda forgot...................
There can't be a more stupid phrase to explain a story
Lol, not only did she know about them, she could also just look down at them from the clouds.
@@skywalker6648 Danny KINDA FORGOT how to see
@@leonardoortega1302 😂
While the reality was D & D kinda forgot how to write a decent episode and character arc
@@orionaugustwatson The reality was they never knew it and Martin just stopped doing it for them.
Yeah Dany is so evil! She allowed her abusive brother die, she crucified slave owners, and she burned war prisoners who disobeyed her.
Meanwhile, Arya killed some men, then baked them into a pie for their father to eat.
Jon sentenced his brothers to die, including a freaking a child!
Sansa fed a man to dogs.
Im not saying that Jon, Arya, and Sansa are evil. Im just saying that if the writers are trying to claim Dany is evil for those actions, then Jon, Arya, and Sansa should also be considered mad.
Don't forget Jon also executed a guy as he was begging for a 2nd chance and promising he would follow orders and that Jon was the proper commander. Meanwhile D and D tried to claim Daenerys was wrong for executing Randyll after he refused 2 ways to live (both bending the knee and taking the black) and insulting both her and her army after the army under his command kept no prisoners alive-including Lady Olena (who was well armed with her tongue but nothing else when she was executed.)
Ned Stark forced Ser Allison either to take the black or execution, and he was a hero, Danny gave the same option to the Tarleys, OMG SHE IS EVIL MAD QUEEN! LMAO SO WEAK. Ser Allison was doing his job as commander of capital city protecting his city from rebellion forces meanwhile the Tarleys betrayed their own liege for their own selfish reason. OMG DANNY IS EVIL MAD QUEEN!
@@harukrentz435 Alright but Ser Alliser (I assume you man Alliser Thorne) was on the losing side of Roberts Rebellion and it was actually Tywin who gave him the option of joining the Nights Watch
I think dany had to walk on thin ice because she was a dragon queen. She constantly had to prove she wasn't her father or a tyrant. So the least thing she did people viewed it as a sign she was "MAD." Meanwhile everyone else got to do whatever they wanted and got viewed as "smart", "just" or "strong" with little or no backlash at all. Dany had power, and that power made people afraid.
Very true
"Themes are for eighth grade book reports." - One of the writers of the Game of Thrones TV show.
The White Walkers should have made it all the way to Kings Landing.
They should have taken the Eyrie and been stopped at Storm's End
I really wanted to see the night king sit on the throne and then fight John in the throne room.
The amount of people that would run away from the white walkers should be the ones to help in capturing Kings Landing, together with Dany and Jon, and that would be the moment where Dany gains their trust. And her second dragon should be taken out by the white walkers and not by the invisible ships.
I TOTALLY AGREE. I wanted to see them in the Red Keep, scaring the crap out of Cersei
they would have if they didn't all miraculously die as soon as the night king was killed
"You can't trust the meaning of the images you're looking at."
This is such an important point and I'm glad someone put the lingering feeling I couldn't pin down into words.
It's bad when the scenes with the CGI creatures (Drogon and Ghost) are the most true emotion provoking scenes in the series finale over everything else. Even George RR Martin said he wouldn't change his plans and ending because a few people figured it out. That to do that was to disregard all the clues and work moving to that point in the story. It's in a video interview. D&D are in large part to blame. If they were tired of it they should have passed it on. Let's hope they don't get bored and want to move on if they do end up doing a Star Wars trilogy.
exactly what I felt watching episode 3.. watched with a friend and every few moments we thought "damn I think they killed off X" just to realize a few moments later they are completely fine and be like "oh ok"
Agreed. I had to walk a few youtubers analyze season eight before I could understand why I stopped enjoying the show. No lie, I stopped watching the season at episode three. I just couldn’t finish it, story-wise the show was too terrible for me to finish.
These are several very good examples of "surprise the audience just because you can"... or surprise simply for the sake of surprise, no matter what price the overall story has to suffer.
Another problem... wasn't Cersei supposed to be killed by one of her brothers, which she always assumed would be Tyrion?
Instead, she died by... falling rock.
Okay... yes... she died AT the hand, or even BY the hand of a brother... in the meaning of NEAR.
Still, it smacks of exactly the same thing as Arya being the one to kill the Night King.
Twisting the story like a pretzel simply for the sake of surprising the audience...
Remember that previous record-breaking movie? The one that we all knew ended with that ship sinking? People didn't go see it in order to see the Titanic suddenly get sunk by a mysterious German U-boat coming from out of nowhere... people went to see it to see the characters' journeys.
Then, there's the entire episode shot so dark that it was almost impossible to tell what was happening. Okay, maybe that's realistic... but... what was the darned POINT of it? Might as well have turned the cameras off and just used microphones and we could have just listened to it... and they could have saved a ton of time, money, and effort.
indeed
Basically , arguably two of the most dynamic and nuanced characters, Dany and Jamie,both got the shortest end of the stick
"You need to be clever to survive this world"
Robb- Wins every battle he's ever fought
still dies
Yeah, its not really a true statement, " you need to be clever". Tywin, littlefinger, and a lot of "clever people died". While sansa, arya, dany are all saved and protected by others. Robb was betrayed by almost everyone he trusted, wasn't his fault.
Robb died for not being clever. (Broke his vow to Frey because of "love". Also killing Karstark and losing his supporters.)
@@chrisj8662 How is being a master tactician not being clever? If he had married the frey girl, the red wedding would have been his wedding. Surprises me how people forget that walder frey didnt care about family or honour.
@@nathanbarnett4832 Tywin reached out to Walder Frey only after robb lost the Karstarks support (and Jaime as hostage.). If Robb kept his word and still had the Karstarks, Walder Frey wouldn't have betrayed him since Robb was winning the war up until then.
@@chrisj8662 Robb wasn't winning the war. Especially after the tyrells joined the lannisters. Walder frey always hated the Starks. In fact he hated every great northern house and house tully as well. Lord Karstark was a murderer who betrayed Robb first. What king allows children to be murdered? Theon, edmure, bolton all betrayed Robb, weakening his position and war efforts. He was written lose.
Wouldn’t Bran make a perfect Master of Whisperers as he can warg into crows and see anything anywhere
Master of peeping tom
You mean just like Bloodraven used his magic abilities to effectively rule the seven kingdoms as hand of the king?
I feel like he's too detached from politics. He wouldn't give a shit
When watching the ending, I immediately said out loud "The fuck you need a Master of Whispers for?"
No. It sounds like the best solution on the surface, but as we saw with Jon's parentage, Bran can't just look anywhere for anything -- he has to be given a specific instance or event to investigate for him to find the truth. Varys and Littlefinger had spies everywhere watching anything and everything all the time. Bran has to be given information or events first before he can look into them and confirm. Bran would actually make a terrible Master of Whisperers.
Bold of you to try and use footage from the long night expecting me to see what’s happening
Hahahaha yeah LOL !!! 😁
Rob Roy lmao
@Rob Roy hahshahjsbdjdjejddornjd yeeeaaahhhh... LOLs 🤣
@Rob Roy relatable, have a nice day
And then the few cuts to Helm's Deep and I'm like "Oh yeah, that's how you do an epic fantasy battle at night... huh, curious how much they f'd that up".
Benioff and Weiss: Help! We're trapped as tv producers in the biggest show in history with all the $ and creative control ever. Save us from this hellscape!
What dummies they won't be able top this show.
Honestly, letting Theon being the "chosen one" would have been much more satisfying. No one would expect it.
Yep, and he’s actually one of the most lovable characters
"We appear to be missing a master of whispers..." Dude, you are the Three Eyed Raven, you can put your eyes everywhere, you don't need a Master of Whispers!
Would’ve been great if he was and not king. Really bring the Brynden bloodraven thing whole circle
That's exactly what I thought.... unless the show was trying to allusion to real life: creating unnecessary positions in government for it to look like a real democracy... nah!
"where is the dragon?" "oh, I will try to find him later nvm"
Not really. Bran can only see things he seeks out to see. He does not see everything that happens, it is just that he can see anything if he knows to look for it. Since a Master of Whispers has a spy network and a diplomatic corps, that person knows that things are curious, suspicious, worth looking into, tells Bran and he then can see what is really happening. But if two people that Bran is not aware of being hostile to him, are planning to assassinate him, he cannot know that unless the possibility is brought to his attention.
Well he's king of the people ,u dont want to people hate u at ur first job do u,and beside he got to sit all day so fuck Bran
I personally didn’t need the writers to subvert my expectations. I needed them to wrap up their setups with good payoffs that made sense. I might be wrong on this but subverting audience expectation seems very trendy right now.
I agree and agree with the video that what the show creators didn't understand about what G.R.R.Martin was doing wasn't about "subverting expectations" for shock value like killing off a well loved protagonist character it was more about there being consequences to your actions whether your a good person or a bad person and most are shades of grey. It was about the complexity in life . Good doesn't always triumph over evil. Things are not always what they seem. History of events that a well known can be falsified, misinterpreted, or written from the victors perspective. There are so many things left unanswered or dropped entirely or took a turn from seemingly no where. I was really intrigued by the white walkers and wanted to know more about them. Knowing how George plays in the grey areas with characters I was thinking instead of being one dimensional bad guys they would have a legitimate reason to be absolutely pissed or reason to be doing what they are doing. I'm angry that they were built up so much for no reason in the show. I've heard so many great fans theories that turned out to be way better then how they ended things in the show. I feel like by the end the creators D & D had almost contempt for GOT and were just ready for it to be over. I wish that they would have just stepped down and handed off to another trusted writer so they could leave to do other things instead of fumbling through an ending to wrap things up quick.
@@roguechevelle I agree, I stopped watching season eight after the Battle of Winterfell. There was so much incredible build up for it to just finish suddenly. The Others didn't have any dimension - they were just bad baddies trying to wipe out humans, because why?
And you're right, there were so many great theories that ended up being better than the show ending.
If the books end like the show, I'm sure GRRM will do a better job of telling it, but there are parts of the ending that I might be disappointed about - like Bran becoming king and rule turning into an oligarchy
@@weirdwesteros1109 I just hope he is able to finish the book series at this point. Bran is another character I think was done a huge disservice and why we had so many scratching their heads at the end of the show as to why him. But we will just have to see how things actually play out. I don't think they hammered home enough in the show that he isn't really just Bran any longer, the robot acting the actor was told to portray kinda was a backfire in my opinion as they think they were letting the audience know that he isn't Bran anymore but it just made him boring instead. It would have been far better to have more glimpses into his visions or into his chaotic mind or see his personality is different like maybe he acts more like his predecessor three eyed crow, Bloodraven. They didn't really give us a chance to learn much about him in the previous seasons but with a few key visions they could have given us a sense of it in season 8. But yeah I hope the book series finishes.
@@roguechevelle I agree, they didn't do Bran justice. Another example of them building a character up in a certain way, without following through on that build up and the resolution falling flat.
It's part of a postmodernist, deconstructionist leftist trend in art that has infected all of western tradition in the past few decades, going back to Foucalt.
Honestly, Gendry has the bigger potential to be king, since he's the bastard son of King Robert Baratheon.
But nah, D&D seems to forgot about him.
And nephew of Stannis !
@@daafpunk4754 Stannis the Mannis!
Don't forget that Dany legitimised Gendry, turning him from a bastard to a Baratheon. Literally making him the heir to the throne. I hated that scene so much, Dany gloats about how smart she is for rewarding him by giving him a claim to the throne, a new position to fight for it and letting everyone know that he is the son of the best king they've had in the past decade
Gendry becoming King is probaly worse than Bran being king
Mr Swede no gendry atleast has a claim bran doesn’t even have that
The irony of them rushing to finish the show so they could work on other projects they got removed from because they rushed to finish the show will never fail to amuse me.
So they could have had Jamie kill the Night King, wear the name of King Slayer as an honour and end his character arc on a positive note.
The personification of death whose advent is an apocalyptic event is killed by the one handed dude who has his ass handed to him constantly since the loss of his hand.
@@RandroidPrime as if arya flying in like batman was better.
But defeating the Night King WAS a joint effort. Jon gathered the troops, Dany and Jon cast him down from the dragon, Theon distracted/delayed him, Bran set the stage and gave Arya the dagger, she just gave the last blow. "ANYone can be killed" -Arya Stark, season 2.
Jaime was redeemed, why does so many people think otherwise? He chose to fight for the living and thus got his forgiveness from Bran. In the end, that line was just a quip, he did go into the capital to get Cercei to surrender and save the people, he was a bit late but he did die on a noble quest. And got his wish to die in the arms of the woman he loved.
Daenerys did alot of chainbreaking in Essos but coming to Westeros she always was coming as a conqueror, based on a dubious birthright entitlement. Starting a war. This is the point of her arch. She had a good story and people (both real life and fictional) fell in love and were ready to follow. This is how real life tragedies happen, leaders always have good stories and justifications for their wars and people fall in love. And in the end cant believe what happened (holocaust denial).
The very first thing we learn in GOT was: "He who passes the sentence should swing the sword". Daenerys never does this, but along the way passes the most sentences. "There is a beast in every man and it awakens when you put a sword in his hand". This must apply to women as well, especially one who has a weapon of mass destruction she has used multiple times before, killing thousands.
Arya and the Hound, perfect archs. There are deep reasons why Bran became the king "Those who dont know history are doomed to repeat it".
@@aulisrintala1306 no it wasnt.
Aulis Rintala agreed on basically everything, but I think all of these beats needed a bit more time to be better fleshed out.
Bran: I am not Bran Stark anymore, i am the Three Eyed Raven. I don't want to be King, i don't want to be Lord.
Also Bran: Why do you think i am here?
Me: WTF.
Well, he kinda forgot...
Bran makes kind of sense to be king... he should not have said he has no ambition though.
Also I think it would make more sense if Bran got Winterfell and Sansa the rest.
@@NetAndyCz Bran makes no sense he holds no authority or respect amogst any of the noble houses he is practically unknown and who ever rules must be able to reel in the houses to unite the kingdoms and must have a sense of charisma aswell Bran is as dead emotionally as a rock he should have been Master of Whispers instead.
It made him kind of a liar.
Uh, I never saw those lines as conflicting. He doesn't want to do it, but he does it anyway because that is his duty and lot in life according to his visions.
I totally agree that Sansa is the monarch in waiting. She actually has experience of governing and looking after citizens. I thought she would have an Elizabeth I style arc (she has the red hair), having had lots of suitors / man problems, so that she could rise to power and say 'sod this, I am married to the realm.' Then she just rules for years and years.
Tyrion, Daenarys, and Jon. The three main characters thrown out a window
They are brilliant at subverting expectations..
I totally expected season 8 to be good..
SUBVERTED!!!
I'd say the main problem is with rushing things.. I mean sure cersei should die but that seemed rather abrupt ... daenerys at least they built up to it - but still it could have done with more episodes to show her spiraling into madness... night king was a cop out, I don't have any problem with arya killing him - I don't see why it has to be jon snow... but before she killed him during the battle I was wondering how in the hell with the few episodes remaining that they were going to defeat all the white walkers since the battle was adding to the # of the undead greatly... and they can just start marching southwards, even if only some of them do - westeros is still toast... but... I guess the instruction manual on the dagger said just kill the night king and problem is solved - well that was convenient lol
@@michaelxz1305 only 2 people in the world thinks that they didnt need more episodes... the showrunners
D&D: Your expectations have been subverted. Pray we don't subvert them further.
@@user-br3fk8dx8o Still better than season 8 :-D
L33t70mage 😂😂😂😂😂
"Daenerys is held to higher standards than everyone else" 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾. Yes someone finally said it. It's so ridiculous for them to portray her as a mad queen when literally everyone in that world commits atrocities. Why was Danaerys viewed differently when she killed who she had to kill (not in s8) when basically everyone else does the same.
Because everyone else in the show always knew they weren't the good guys.
Aside from the honorable Starks, who usually only killed people because they had a moral oblgiation to do so, everyone else basically aknowledged "Well... That's just how the world is. We kill people because we can. Kinda messed up, but what can you do."
Daeny on the other hand always pretended to take the high road, while she basically slaughtered/crucified/burnt whoever she wanted to that week. She saw nothing wrong with it, and always went "What? They deserved it, because I said so."
And while she did so every other episode, she also went on and on about how she doesn't like the way the world works. She wants to break the wheel.... By... Turning the wheel until she's the spoke on top? What the hell kind of logic is that? Then every other king before her broke the wheel already. That's how dynasties work.
She's just a 14 year old girl that thinks she's super smart and everybody loves her, because aside from her maniac brother, nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has ever said "no" to her.
It's always been "Daeny did this so well." and "Khaleesi you are so great at what you do" or "Wow, she just burnt all these sacred widows alive. How cool is that?"
She's a spoiled brat, like Joffrey.
edit: She's like 14 in the books. Which somewhat explains why she couldn't know better.
@@ladyymir1478 Nah that is not it. In the books Dany does not think that there is nothing wrong with it when she kills someone but she is very conflicted like most of the characters. In the show they just chose not to show that because they cant show her thoughts and did not think about other ways to do it
My favourite part is when Tyrion is shocked while watching people burning in the loot train attack. Like, dude! You did the same thing in Blackwater Bay and you were proud of that, you hypocritical prick.
@ what do you mean? Lannisters are their enemies
@ and they are at War with the Lannister Who just sacked highgarden which would make them probably less innocent then Stannis's troops at Blackwater
It’s now March 2020 and I’m still salty over this shit ending. I love watching these videos because they express exactly how I feel regarding the last of GOT
Read Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy! I just finished it last week- it was the satisfying violent fantasy ending I'd been waiting for for almost 3 years
January 2023 and I’m still salty 🙃🙃
In another dimension, there are other versions of ourselves that just finished season 9 and are thoroughly satisfied that D&D decided to take their time with the show. We are living in the darkest timeline.
We really are though
Making "king slayer" a positive for Jamie would have been a cool twist..
Michael Morrison it was positive... he saved kings landing from the mad king?
@@makaveli_DK It's a title that was used to mock him basically his entire life. Seeing it and his image morph into something good would have been vindication for his character, something no one even imagined he deserved until we were 3 seasons into the show. Instead of course, we got absolutely nothing.
I actually though he would kill the night king. (hence king slayer good for jaimie)
I actually thought that's where this was going. He really should have been the one to slay the Night King, given his arc.
T Mac Jon and Jamie could’ve done it together. Jon doing most of the fighting and very nearly defeating the Night King within an inch of his own life, then Jamie surprise attacks and delivers the final blow.
It doesn't matter who killed the Night's King. Having the White Walkers threat end so abruptly after 10 years of them being built up with no questions answered is what makes it so unsatisfying. The danger signs were already there when Littlefinger was executed. Most people I spoke to love the episode but I was like 'so his clever plots and character arc over all these years are going to end with that?' he wasn't behaving like himself.
30noir Thank you, I found Littlefinger’s death so unsatisfying and hollow. A lot of the clever characters ran out of cleverness in the later seasons, it seems.
I agree. I would also point out that Tyrion, who was supposed to be the most clever man in the entire story, was such an idiot in the last few seasons that I thought that the Big Reveal was going to be that Tyrion was actually evil and manipulating Daenerys and everyone else all along in some grand, complex scheme to be the one that ended up on the Iron Throne. I thought his plans were intended to get Jon Snow, Grey Worm and anyone else close to Dany killed and out of the way. Instead, he was just a dumbass that kept coming up with bad ideas over and over and over again.
I think Littlefinger's death ties up nicely with the "power is power" speech by Cersei. I mean it *was* a way to get rid of his character and plot, but it's not as egregious as what happened later.
@@HarryBuddhaPalm In the books it does seem like that is exactly Tyrion's plan (to manipulate Dany into burning Kings Landing to get revenge on Cersei and the people of KL) as he seems a lot of more evil in the books, so we can only hope we get a better ending there at least.
show opens up with the whitewalkers and they just die like that lmao. and I expected for littlefinger to be bran in disguise(same training as arya) at the end and him unmasking himself right at the end, but the writers didn't care one bit for the fans lol
Plot wise, Dany should have just become Queen. Her going "mad" doesn't make any sense with her arc or her plot.
I completely disagree. It could make perfect sense. Her struggle is between her desire for power and her strong moral compass. By having her slowly turn mad and burn King's Landing, we find that she had to give up her moral values to get what she thinks is rightfully hers. That theme is present through the entire show. You end up having to kill people, invade cities, and execute dissenters. The real problem is that they made it happen like the flip of a switch rather than the slow turning of a dial.
It would have been smarter for her and Jon to marry and both of the co-rule uniting the north and south it would have gone with the theme of humanity banding together for a better world like they did against the Night King
@@CoreyStock You know Ned Stark executed a scared poor man for telling the truth at the begining and could have saved everyone saved countless lives by having CErsei and her kids executed immidietly rather then show her undeserved mercy getting himself killed in the process and starting a war... Must have been all that pesky honor, justice and sane mind you all seem to think he had and Dany didn't... I would question the sanity of a man who thinks someone would not strike back at him when cornered to a wall.
Exactly. She reacted as any other monarch would've. You took her best friend, killed her child, refused to surrender and expected the lady to treat King's Landing with favour? I for one felt she did EXACTLY what a sane ruler would do. After all, what other city did she burn down like this?
@@homunculus7 If only we could rewrite the story ourselves. This is a better ending than D & D could ever come up with.
I just love how Bran from episode fucking One was destined to be this wise Green eyed Raven, went through all kinds of hell to become one and contributed absolutely nothing in the final season. Yeah, Bran did absolutely nothing in the final season and suddenly he has the best story ? Like the writers weren't even trying at that point.
Lets not forget about Sam being made Grand Maester even though he hasn't earned a single chain and wouldn't come anywhere close to qualify as a normal Maester.
Yes! Like, what the fuck? Are we supposed to believe the Maesters down in Oldtown are just going to be okay with that?
Yep, and I thought he was now a Lord as his brother and father had both died, and he'd done more than enough to ensure his lands weren't forfeit. That way he could go back to his wifey and "son"
Also, fuck the nights watch vows eh?
Theorimlig
Those Maesters were cooked.
D BongLord
Breaking Nights Watch Rules, was really serious shit in episode one.
They killed Jon because he was trying to evolve the Watch to survive what was coming.
Something that bothered me in the episode “the bells” was when the Lannister’s were shooting their huge arrows at drogon they were shouting “fire” instead of “loose”
Yup, that bothered me too. It was #276 on my list of things that bothered me about that episode...
A common mistake and pretty understandable though
Same. What's especially jarring is that the early seasons (specifically the Battle of Blackwater) had this detail nailed down.
Other phrases seemed out of place, too. Earlier in the season, when Jon says “my name.... my REAL name...” this sounds too modern, it should be “my TRUE name” or something.. They really should’ve asked GRRM for help with the ending, especially dialogue.
@@kevanbaconofficial or Jon using the word attitude in season 7. Like wtf that's too modern a word. I didn't notice fire instead of loose, good catch .
I think it's poignant that D&D's deals have been falling through since butchering that last season of GoT. They lost Star Wars, another HBO series, and I haven't heard in a while what's happening with their Netflix thing. Karma is a bitch sometimes.
Ned Stark dying wasn't really subverting our expectations. C'mon. He was played by Sean Bean. You do the math.
Lol, true.
“Best season EVAH!!!!”
-Emilia Clarke
Then again, her facial expression screams "I hate it."
And lets not forget Kit's "disappointing". I had a real bad feeling when both the leading man and lady clearly hated it. Jon and Dani deserved better, as did Kit and Emilia.
And the face of Missandei after that. Like "yeah... best... season ever... cool..."
I would agree with that
@@FlyingFocs .... thats the point
It’s a bad taste left in our mouths as Emília Clarke said.
That was Monica Lewinski ;)
Lorenzo Amato watch John Oliver’s video on public shaming
@@lorenzoamato953 my friend, you need to find a cultural reference that isn't 20 years old
R S ... and clever, maybe?
@@sugaredwards6207 You have high standards for youtube comments, these days I'll settle for somewhat funny.
They literally went from playing chess, to playing checkers,and cheating while we were looling.
12:20 - THANK YOU for acknowledging this. The fact that women who want power = crazy but men wanting power is just normal in GOT is something that I haven't heard any male breakdown talk about. Making both Cersei AND Daenerys crazy was a bad look.
It also shows that GRR Martin's feminism has no follow through.
HBO should have added an "UNLESS IT SUCKS" clause to D&D's contracts.
huhuh yes
Benioff and Weiss never would have signed that. Because they all ready knew they sucked.
Please stop calling them that. Dungeons & Dragons doesn't deserve to have its reputation sullied like this.
It can't suck though because at least one guy likes it. That's the Just Write position while defending TLJ. Maybe it doesn't apply to GOT though, I'm not sure. I'm just a dumb viewer, I don't understand logic very well. Maybe GOT is actually allowed to be perceived as shit. Maybe it's just so worthy to bash it that even the biggest SJWs couldn't resist.
I will NEVER watch anything from D&D EVER!!! I hate them.
I think for the amount of time that was given, having Daenerys turn into the 'Mad Queen' was incredibly stupid. It made no sense after 7 seasons of her being built up as the 'liberator' just for her to snap in one episode. If they had taken more time to develop her into that kind of character I think that could've been ok but 6 episodes is not enough to turn a character from a protagonist to the antagonist.
I know Im pretty alone in this but I put her down as a power hungry mad queen in S2. In my eyes her ideology has been "worship me or die" since then. It's a little bit hidden behind the "free the slaves facade" which on the surface looks good but really is just "If I free them they worship me and they let me rule them".
I think her descent into madness could have worked if she actually descended into madness not just freefalling down in the last two episodes for no real reason.
bou-bouki Im not saying it was suprising Im just saying that she went too mad too Quick in the final season
It could have worked. If her second dragon had been killed in Kings Landing instead of out in the middle of the ocean somewhere.
And if she had actually lost some soldiers to the Night King.
@@jacobolson9650 I agree. I remember seeing a video or so saying they could have had one of the dragons shot down in kings landing and the civilians start to like throw stuff at them, torture them in away as the dragon is already hurt and dying. Proving that they are just as bad and no use for saving. Just think hearing the cries of her hurt dragon would definitely have pushed her over completely and burned the entire city. It’s honestly just comes down to lazy and inconsistent writing since I’m trying to become a script writer.
Can we also talk about how they kinda ruined Sansa's character too. That whole women are too emotional to rule thing is borne out in her cos they take away her emotions and idealism. She gets to rule the north but loses all joy, passion and any idealism. When her previous character arc was to learn to be clever and less naive and trusting, but not lose her kindness and moral code. I don't have a problem with her being occasionally ruthless. I do have a problem with her being a cyborg. And I HUGELY have a problem with her saying "well, I needed to be physically, emotionally and sexually abused cos that's the only way you get strong" UGH
I still cry about how this show ended... used to love watching random eps but can’t anymore ☹️
"we're in a hurry. Let's just string together some of the key scenes from the notes."
Rewatching that bath scene between Jaime and Brienne reinvigorated my hate for S8. Jaime's character path was laid out perfectly. His flaws and desires to be better perfectly conveyed. And they screw it up to *Subvert our expectations*
Funny, because the bath scene happened after two seasons of Jaime being the ultimate ass. Pushing a child out the window, killing Ned's soldiers, strangling his own cousin... I guess a heart-sobbing confession in a tub next to the naked muscular lady is all it takes to undo all these things.
@@SerbAtheist I don't know where you got the whole "undo" thing from but you do you man. Clearly I'm saying that with proper character development, even someone who's been an ass for two seasons can show that he wants to do better.
@@marcuso.530 Yeah, well, WHERE was the character development in the first two seasons leading up to this bathtub confession? They literally did a 180 on his character and people lapped it up like it was the last handful of fresh water on Earth. Yet when he returns back to KL to help and save Cersei after EIGHT SEASONS of CONSISTENTLY telling everyone ever interested in hearing that Cersei is the most important thing in his life, this is for SOME REASON a betrayal of his character development? But on the other hand, somehow reneging on the love of his life after a night of hanky-panky with someone else IS character development? And KILLING THE MOTHER OF HIS UNBORN CHILD is considered not just character development but REDEMPTION?
Face it, the hatred for Jamie's character arc has nothing to do with 'character development.' It has everything to do with Jaime refusing to fulfill everyone's quota of bloodlust against Cersei and both Jaime and the show choosing to humanize Cersei one last time.
Jaime just lost everything, dumb dumb.
Crucibles change you, or they can.
Your argument is one of someone who’s never gone through a tough day in his little life.
@@SerbAtheist It was not about undoing things, in both the third book and season, we are shown a different,more empathetic Jaime, a Jaime who wants to do the right thing, a Jaime with a conscience, a Jaime with less pride, a Jaime who is suffering, and, most important, a Jaime who can change for the better. That IS what his character Arc should have been for me, Jaime trying to be better and Care about others the way he cared years Ago when he killed the Mad King. But, Dan and David, Just turned him into Cersei's puppet or lap dog, when he should be the total opposite of that.
Going on your thing of how Aria killing the Night King could make sense because her arc is about confronting death, and the Night King is basically the embodiment of death is real interesting. It would have made the moment make more sense and be so much more badass if, when he caught her, she says "not today," drops the knife and stabs him. I feel like that would have been epic and would have made more sense, tying into the phrase she learned all the way back in Season 1.
Something I thought was interesting about your “subversion vs surprise” section is that it can be applied to the entire final battle with the white walkers.
In my opinion, they shouldn’t have won, because Cersei’s armies didn’t aid Jon in the fight. A truly subversive moment would have been if the white walkers killed everyone, ignoring plot armor and all the bs logic, and actually winning with their superior forces. Jon, Arya, the dragons, would all be gone in a blip because they failed to unite everyone against the white walkers.
It harkens back to the themes you were talking about. “It doesn’t matter if you’re noble, or fight for a just cause. No one is safe, in this world you have to be clever in order to survive.” Ending game of thrones where the villains win and the humans die would’ve been the ultimate pay off to 8 seasons of build up.
I think that’s way more subversive than FIGHTING AND KILLING THE MAIN VILLAIN IN ONE EPISODE AND ONLY A COUPLE SIDE CHARACTERS DIE.
But that goes against the themes of the series too
D&D: "I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain."
I didn't need to be reminded of that stupid line, but good comparison
Imagine that Jamie killed the Night King, he would be cheered as the Kingslayer !
That would have been pretty amazing. I actually like that the chosen one ended up being a chick (the prophecy never used pronouns). But yeah, Jamie would have been just as good of a twist imho.
I hate jaime but I really would have enjoyed that probably wouldn't have hated him after that
Fuck that would be awesome
Fuck that would be so good
That's exactly what my expectation was! From boo kingslayer to yaaaay kingslayer! But nope, fuck good writing ideas
Season 6-8 is the slow realization that your beloved Cadillac is cardboard covered with water-based paint, which you’re driving in a sad drizzle that turns into a raging storm causing you to lose control and drive off a cliff.
there's a point where "shocking character deaths" isn't shocking, memorable, or interesting anymore.
Delete season 8 and get new writers to do 3 more seasons
Will Whyatt 7 seasons and a movie (once the books are done). Season 8 never happened.
@@canadiandee6342 season 7 was also garbage. 5 & 6 are ok but they're clearly leading to a wring direction. Changing just one season won`t fix anything
Rom Dh 4 seasons and a movie series then
The problems start way before season 8. They arguably started when they botched Tyrions character at the finale of season 4.
@@Rom14DH Need to restart at the end of season 4, s4 wasn't ideal but it was redeemable, had the start of the rot of D and D's plot ideas. Then do the rest of the series with writers who aren't being offered all kinds of other shit by HBO or Disney or whatever who care about the books and remaining authentic in the same way D and D did in S1-4, they genuinely cared at the start. Could easily find some decent writers who had read the books and were passionate etc.
Sam: "Why did you leave me to die?"
Jon: "I knew you could handle it."
@Gustavo Vasconcelos Hey what's that on the ground over there? Is that the script?
@@locksmith898 Next to the coffee cup there it is!!
Survived doing nothing but crying
His only uses in the series were discovering dragonglass and curing Jorah. I don't know why he had so much plot armour.
Sam the slayer!
The Night King thing kills me. It's literally less subversive than one of the most popular fantasy books of all time. Remember Bard the Bowman from the Hobbit? Tolkien wrote him killing Smaug back in 1937. This isn't "fresh"
2020 is almost over and I'm still watching these videos. They are weirdly comforting.
It is almost 2023 and it’s still weirdly comforting
Game of Thrones kinda forgot Jon is a Targaryen
Yes in the end the big reveal made no difference to anything
@@JaneAxon123 It did - it caused people like Sansa and Varys to start scheming against Dany with another ruler in mind, and that supposedly drove Dany bananas enough to torch a city. Can't blame you for not noticing, though, as the show spent about two minutes total on this development.
ThatDinoBoi wat did u even watch behind the scenes...d&d badly try to defend this b.s....and how is the wheel broken if there is another king😂😂with worse council than the mad king had....
@ThatDinoBoi You are dumb for trying to defend this mess of a season.
@ThatDinoBoi How does Bran not also fit that description? Part of the reason he has "a good story" worthy of a king (according to Tyrion) is that he has the Stark family name behind him. He did very little in the show, and his rescuers often only knew about him through his name. Your assertion that you're the adult here and only kids are criticizing the show falls flat.
Also, Jon being a Targaryen doesn't just refer to his claim to the throne, the show runners never explained if he was immune to fire or not. It would have made both the battle scenes and non-battle scenes more interesting to have an answer to that question.
The warnings were there when they said 13 episodes left after season 6
They were supposed to be 13 _seasons,_ unfortunately, D&D must've misheard.
I guess the flop was foreshawdowed xD
The warnings should have been there when they refused the *10* seasons they were originally offered- & Martin said were needed 'to tell the story right', which was long before the actors became celebrities, & long before they were offered Star Wars.
D&D should have to go from city to city and get the Cersei walk of shame treatment...
@@OmegaF77 sorry, I don't what people are talking about when they say D&D, my mind goes straight to Dungeons and Dragons.
When you compare Ophelia’s descent into madness in Hamlet to what happened to Daenarys character, the lack of talent is so glaring.
They subverted my expectation of proper lighting. I totally didn't see it coming!
ba dum tss
"You're suppose to be famous for killing characters not assassinating them"
Truer words have not been spoken
THANK YOU. I am not inherently against Daenerys becoming "The Mad Queen", but the execution was so clumsy it, well, made everyone furious.
Jon Snow should have gotten the Throne. Throughout the series he's been built up as a character who doesn't want to be a leader, but he's constantly being pushed into the role by the people around him because he is a good leader.
Not killing the Night King or not becoming the king completely robs Jon Snow of his Character arc. I'm not saying he should have done both, Because that might have been ridiculous. However it's ridiculous that he's being built up to both, But he doesn't do either, and just goes back to the way it was in the beginning, with him just being a nothing Bastard and going back to the wall.
Jon killing the Night King yes, but the throne should have gone to Sansa. Or, better yet, not have a throne at all (and have Sansa simply being the ruler of Winterfell).
For me Jon Snow, was always a one who wanted to do the right thing, he believed in. And in some way he got punished for this. Tyrion who manipulated him to kill Daenerys, wins again hand of the king, and jon is banned to the north. Why Tyrion was not punished?
His ass was saved way too many times by others. Not leader material after a certain point in the show. I might agree if we're talking earlier seasons
"Wait, what?! Game of Thrones had a theme?!"
- D&D
"Themes are for 8th grade book reports" - D&D
th-cam.com/video/AdQ3JDLlmPI/w-d-xo.html With an extended version too
I never thought about Jaime being the one to kill the Night King, but it's a cool idea. After all, he's the Kingslayer.
I thought Theon killing the Night King would've been perfect
Johny Reyes same
if the theme is unity, I feel like it should have been a group of characters fighting him together (and most of them dying in the process). Jaime being the one giving the final blow in this case sounds neat, and podrick and/or brienne being the ones living to tell the tale would have been great.
@@maximeteppe7627 That would've been great.
Honestly, almost anything would have been better than what they ended up doing.
Not to mention he’d be saving Bran which would be a full redemption arc
What would have been thematic and kinda kickass for who kills the Night King? They make sure as many people as possible have dragonglass arrows, and then he shows up, and starts to do the big fight with Jon. Jon shouts a command and the Night King gets filled with arrows and dies.
I just realized how the council meeting at the end feels like an end of campaign for a DnD group of adventurers, just to enjoy yourself with no respect for common sense. Bronn as master of coin feels like the bard becoming master of war just because, because we do what the f we want in ttrpgs xD
Tyrion should’ve died. That’s my main beef. He made so many mistakes, literally was a moron since season 4 yet he was never punished like other characters.
Fanservice.
But he was. His ultimate punishment is having to live with what he’s done.
It makes no sense either why he was suddenly an idiot. Also how Varys didn't know what was going on suddenly.
As well as Jon Snow (why i'm certainly glad that i don't see any more books coming so he can stay dead after the rebellion he caused)
The characters of this series were like a game of chess, skillfully anticipating moves, knowing when to attack and when to defend. Hell it was spelled out by Cersei to all of us about when you play the Game of Thrones you win or you die in the first season. Tyrion was supposed to be the best of them, while overcoming his small stature, dislike from family etc. And like in a chess match, if you want it to end quickly you suddenly have to make a bunch of blunders. That’s why he was made stupid. Just to hurry things along and get to the end. It was a travesty and abomination what D&D did to this series.
At some point, "Subverting Expectations" has stopped being intriguing and has become a warning sign.
The Plinkett Review for Last Jedi talked about this quite nicely.
Agreed, in the same vein that “indie horror” on Steam arouses little more than yawns and an idle glance nowadays, whereas 10 years ago it was near revolutionary. The subverting of expectations is only ever effective when it's 1) written REALLY well, 2) adds to the narrative arc of the artwork, and/or 3) isn’t present in an incredibly saturated market of the stuff.
When it stopped making sense. It was at that point.
Subverting Expectations has become more and more cliche than actual cliche things.
As someone who writes, it sucks because subverting expectations feels like it's expected of you as a writer. Like you're being boring or lacking in skill if you don't do it.
My favourite scene, without a doubt, was Jaime and Brienne scene at Harrenhal. Specifically, the line _"By what right does the Wolf judge the Lion?"_ It's so powerful and I think Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is why I love it so much. People always say Zuko has the best redemption arc, but my favourite is Jamie's. I hated him in the first two books, then George decided to give him a redemption arc and I didn't want to like Jamie. He's a bad guy, almost as bad as Joffrey and I was determined to hate him. But no. As of Dance with Dragons, he's one of my favourite characters I've ever read. Ever. Zuko was amazing, but I never had a frothing hatred for him.
The subverted my expectations that this will be a good show.