The Broadhead Dilemma And The Truth About Traditional Bowhunting Success!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ต.ค. 2023
- If you’ve ever lost a deer with little to no blood trail using traditional bowhunting equipment such as a longbow or recurve and want to know the real truth about different types of broadheads then this video is for you!
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Zwickey Eskimos and Deltas are cheap and can be sharpened to razor edge….love em
First year traditional hunting. I went with the Dirt nap DRT single bevel with bleeders. 50# recurve 400 spine, 580 total arrow weight, 250 tip weight. Making 20 yards my max distance.
Oh yeah that should do the job no problem!
I've shot a truck load plus of deer over the past 40+ years with all kinds of broadheads. Simmons Land Sharks have been the most impressive of them all. Out of several-several deer shot with Simmons Sharks only 2 have ever made it out of sight and on those the blood trails were very easy to follow. They are the only broad heads that i shoot out of 6 different bows i hunt with. Good video Jeff, you didn't bash any of the other good broad heads out there, you just gave the advantages and some dis-avantages of each.
Happy hunting & short blood trails!
Exactly! I’ve always had various results with lots of different heads with all kinds of bows throughout the years but there’s something about the shape of the sharks that really do some serious damage no doubt but I think it’s a bit of a safety net in the case where there’s not a low exit.
Isn't that broadhead a knife look? Just looked them up and it's 2 blades, right?
@@IdahoEagle77 yes sir
Archers!
Remember, to prevent short drawing your bow practice lining up your draw arm elbow with the point of your arrow.
Great video. I've seen a LOT of videos lately of people with homemade arrows and stone broadheads, kill deer. Very good to know about the blood trail though!
Glass works well. Stone goes deeper as long as you don't hit bone. You will soon learn why Ishi laughed at the Professors. Practicing is a painful experience. To see the arrow you spent a week making broken.
I agree 100% brother. But "for me" the tooth of the arrows didn't perform like I thought they should. Also, they are terrible to sharpen.
I love the simmon broadheads but it's hard for me to lay down the magnus stinger buzzcut.
Best luck for this season, God bless to all
Archers !
This post can help teach you what you DONT need and informed decisions are wise decisions.Mr.Phillips knows of that which he posts!!
Excellent video! Well said and all true..Keep em coming brother 👍
Great content! Keeps up the great work 👍🤗😉🏹🎯🦌
Jeff thanks for speaking the truth..your ideas make a lot of sense..I’m new to trad bow hunting and need all the help I can get..thanks
You’re very welcome my friend! Thanks so much 👍🏻
I’m getting back into the Trad game back in high school I shot Trad then got away from it and have had a compound ever since..I’m going back to my roots and I’m getting a Trad bow again very soon…Iv been doing research on Broadheads and I came across the (Tree Sharks ) And I instantly New that’s the head I was gonna run in my Trad set up…Thanks for another great video 👍
Man that is so awesome! Sounds like me lol and brother you just can’t go wrong with them 👍🏻
Interesting thoughts for sure. Your experience is highly relevant. I suspect that if I was out west after Elk I might be more nervous deviating from Ashby type heads. But for most white tails, you may have just influenced my decision. By the way your videos on bareshaft tuning and arrow builds have been super helpful to me this summer and fall. Thank you!
I really appreciate you my friend!
My first season with a traditional bow, St Joe River recurve 44#@28" using a 458gr arrow with a razor sharp Simmons Mako 100gr Broadhead with a 100gr brass insert. So far I harvested 3 Whitetail deer with this set up. One P&Y Buck and two Doe. One complete pass through (doe) and two that penetrated through the animal with the arrow sticking out on each side. All three shots were 10-12 yards max. I will not shoot over 15yards max to much room for error from what I have experienced. Blood trails all were excellent. I did have to use a tracking dog to recover my Buck, had excellent blood until a piece of internal fatty tissue covered the exit hole but he was dead on his feet after the arrow hit him and easily recovered with the help of the dog (lung and liver). Simmons are #1 in my book!
Man yea! You’ve got a great setup!👍🏻
Love these videos
👊
I don't ever think of shooting for s blood trail. To many variables, shot placement, muscles moving, passthrough or not, etc. I always shoot for the highest percentage kill. Straight up the leg, lower 1/3, vital V. Put an arrow thru there and they don't run far. And for me, nothing but a 2 blade single bevel. Proven nothing penetrates more. Love the videos Jeff, thanks for everything you do for the trad community. Joe
Well, the cool thing about single bevel is that they will penetrate more through bone and penetrate less in tissue. They take a curved trajectory through tissue, which causes more damage while penetrating less. So whether you hit a shoulder blade or slice through behind the shoulder, they'll optimize the damage -penetration tradeoff.
Congratulations curt thats a good one
I 100% concur with everything you said! Great video! A lot of great heads out there but overall nothing close to the Simmons. A lot of guys have trouble sharpening. The 3 sided jewel stick has been my go to for years. For really dull heads and limited time, the rada wheelie sharpener with a finish on the smooth jewel stick or ceramic has been great as well. Keep up the good work brother!
Thanks!
Appreciate this video very much. I will be ordering a longbow soon from Big Jim ans it will only be 42lbs @ 28" so roughly shooting 39/40lbs. I have the grizzly broadheads but now may be changing up a little. Thank you!
Well like I said if you get a low exit hole you’ll probably be okay but that doesn’t always happen then it’s uh oh!
My thoughts exactly. I've got palmer extremes and Simmons in my quiver!
I just recently found some Magnus stinger killer bee buzz cuts in 150grn 4 blades. I got a pass through on a decent 8 pointer with a 38# recurve and a 575grn total weight arrow with 275 grains on the front.
Amen I shot woodsman elite 125 gr 1" cut they would penetrate unbelievably good dead deer but not always a good trail last two deer had almost no blood trail. This year I switched to Simmons Land sharks I got a buck on a out of state hunt this year and I have not seen a blood trail like that in I don't know how many years! They are amazing heads and do horrific damage and big holes. I am a new can of these heads. Darren
Thanks for the video, Ashby actually had better penetration with one of his ultra extreme arrows out of a 40 pound recurve than he did out of 70 pound longbows with lighter arrows. My brother in law just split a deer shoulder like fire wood with a 50 pound longbow and 100 grain Magnus. I think a well tuned arrow will do it even out of the 45 pound bow I shoot
But Ashby was there to figure out whether it should be legal to hunt humongous African game with archery equipment. In that context it's all about maximizing penetration. With whitetail, unless you're using very light traditional bows, getting sufficient penetration is really not difficult.
@@ThirdLawPair that was my point, Jeff said something about Ashby shooting 70 pound trad bows which he did but he also shot and had better results out of a 40 pound recurve. If you can blow through a water buffalo with a 40 pound recurve the same can be achieved on a white tail deer.
@@christianb5110true. I guess my point is that if you are hunting whitetail with more powerful equipment than a 40lb stickbow, you don't need to worry about all the Ashby penetration stuff. In particular, you can compromise penetration to get bigger cuts.
@@ThirdLawPairplenty of videos with deer running with an arrow in its shoulder. Not sure how someone can still make this statement with all the information available including video of shots
I don't have a trad bow yet but I get SO MUCH great info here! I'd love to try a Simmons, but I suck at free hand sharpening... So I know better LOL
There more I have thought about this topic, a 3 blade makes so much sense.
Great info!
The Exodus 125 is an awesome head. The blood trails are insane. You can see the channel that head cuts.
I like usimg Ruzsutec Sharpening Stone for finishing. I like the cut the edge makes using those stones
I've decided on this setup for my Satori, 19" riser, 45 # Med Limbs
Easton 6.5, 400 Spine @ 28 3/16" Carbon to carbon
VPA 200 gr three blade
75 gr Brass insert
Nocturnal nock
4" shield cut fletch x 3, right offset.
FOC 22.8% with the Easton FOC calculator
Chronograph right in the 155/158 fps range
Flies great and broad heads fly with the field points.
Now it's practice time till October. Lol
Best of the Christmas Season Jeff and thank you for sharing your wealth of experience and knowledge.
Forgot to mention Total Arrow Weight 555gr
Man that’s a sweet setup for sure!
👍 Simmons Tree Sharks, killed many with them. Have switched to the Abowyer Bonehead Large inch and half cut. Have 9 kills going with same head, all but one complete pass through out of a 43lb recurve 580 grains. Great blood trails, no difference from Simmons that I have seen. Keep up the great videos!
They do look awesome for sure!
Thanks for the input Mr Phillips, I recently purchased some woodsman but just not 100% ready to use them. I’ve got 20+ kills with Simmons and it’s hard to put them down because I know the results I’ll get.
Yes sir and the Woodsman heads at least the steel ones not the stainless are great especially if you get them really sharp, I’ve shot the stainless and they’re not tough at all compared to the steel.
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 thanks that is good info to know
When shooting my recurve (Dale Dye Trails End 58#@28")
I always used the Magnus Snuffers 125gn with great success on blood trails. I think a 3-4 blade is more devastating. Having said that i also had some perfectly hit deer that i had very little blood.
This year i didn't use a trad bow( long story) but I used a muzzy hybrids 1 5/8 expandable with a 1" fixed. Put it through the heart of a deer with a huge hole.
It ran 70-80 yards died in sight and it only bled the last 10 yards. Can't figure that one out
I do think I am going to go to the big Simmons Shark, maybe the Swamp Shark next year. You have made some very good points. I have killed several deer with the old 3 blade wasps and it always killed fast, but I was using a compound back in the 80's that probably didn't shoot any faster than lots of recurves. And later on I killed a lot of deer with the crossbow and the same wasps. All kills were fast, and frankly, I didn't need a blood trail, usually.
Then I got into Trad about 30 years ago, and frankly I had great luck with the old Bear Razorhead without the bleeders, but I was shooting a 60# recurve and it got great penetration with around 500 grain aluminum arrows with relatively low FOC. Fast forward to this year, and I killed two does, one with a pretty slow Bear TD with 41# limbs and one with a Black Widow with 45# limbs, both shooting heavy 687 grain arrows with heavy FOC and those long 3 to 1 Grizzly's, you were talking about. I made lousy shots on both of them from a tree. One didn't go very far, but there was no blood trail that I ever found, I just found the deer. The second I hit broadside but way too far forward, it was a solid shoulder shot, and hit a lot of bone. I did eventually find some blood, but not a lot, but enough to determine direction of travel after it straightened out. The arrow was still in the deer but didn't get out the opposite side. It went about 150 yards. Ashby talks about Plan B, when the shot goes wrong and really, that's where the heavy arrow and 3 to 1 single bevel can save the day. And in this case, I think it probably did, because I don't think I would have gotten sufficient penetration with most other heads in this case.
Still yet, I am not impressed with the blood trail, but in all fairness, my shooting was terrible. As a comparison, I later shot another nice doe, with my old crossbow, and the old three bladed wasps from the past that they don't even make anymore, and # one my marksmanship was perfect on this deer, at 20 yards and it pilled up dead within 40 yards, and #two, I got a complete pass thru, but there really wasn't a blood trail on it either, right up to about the end of the trail, but the trail was short. If the trail is short, who needs blood. (:
Anyway, I do think I am going to go to the big Simmons with my recurves and longbow, this next year, because some of the wound channels I have seen on videos, are quite impressive with the Simmons.
Jeff, it was comforting to find that you like Simmons heads. I also use Simmons but unfortunately in this part of Vermont opportunities are less than most other parts of the country.
My question is: can you tell me where I can purchase a long 3 sided diamond jewel stick such as you use on these Simmons heads? Love your videos. Thank you.
Yes sir you can get them from Sharpening Supplies and Amazon, you want at least a 12” to have room to work with them 👍🏻
Appreciate all your videos and enjoy them! I must say that I used a 125 gr grizzly head for many of my kills and had good blood on all that were hit in the kill zone. Only one instance of bone but that was on an Antelope which does not have heavy bones. The head split the humerus bone, through the heart and stopped on the far side of the chest. She went about 50 yds and piled up. (50# longbow, 500 gr arrow). I was using the wrong fletch for a right bevel also. So, I appreciate the point of this video and I agree you have some good options out there. Currently I am hoping to kill a deer with a Jerry Hill "Killer" broadhead which looks like a long land shark as far as design goes. I looked up the Tooth of the Arrow heads on Amazon and unfortunately they had some reviews that questioned the brittleness of the metal with some failures on game so that one I would be wary of. The Simmons, Magnus (all of their heads) VPA and Wensel carbon heads are great choices.
Absolutely! There are a lot of great choices and with a good lower third hit I believe all of them will give good blood trails and the sharper the better for sure!
I was going with the simmons this year. Been away from traditional for several yearsnow have returned. Was shooting the big game head made by Centaur Archery. Though jim stopped making heads. Reason for the simmons. Found if you call him he still making heads on a limited number. Same platform as the simmons from what i have heard grain weight is more consistent than the simmons. Blood trails and wound channel just as devastating. Thank you for the videos the most realistic of the trad world these days.
Yeah the Simmons heads as great as they are definitely do not seem to weigh what they’re labeled lol all my 175 swamp sharks weigh 188 grains but they do say +- 15 grains so it’s okay with me just have to keep that in mind for sure 👍🏻
If talking Ashby the results with the doe is exactly what his reports show. Arrow needs to be over 600 to pass through after hitting bone.
I'd be really leery of that TOTA from a trad bow but I don't have your level of experience Jeff. It's a steep angle and a lot of blade to push through at 40-45lbs running 160-175 FPS no? I'd love for you to do a followup on that heads performance. As always your content is loaded with good info.
Jeff did you ever try Razor single beveled, there 1.5 inch wide wicked strong excellent head.
Love your videos Jeff, just order some Sharks and can't wait to see how they fly. What is the black target your shooting? Home made or store bought?
It’s a bone-a-fide target I got at a major shoot a few years back I’ve also got a blob target I really love.
Thanks for your reply, love the size of it, I’ve been looking for something like that, but cannot find anything.
Last week I lost a solid hit doe with a muzzy phantom.
Hardly any blood in thick cover on a warm evening.
I switched to rocky Mountain broadheads with an extra 100 grain insert and dropped one in it's tracks.
Both of those broadheads are not in mfging.
I switched back to razor blade replaceable blades and having sausage for breakfast
Love my tree sharks . Great video
Simons always!
Abowyer wapati and bonehead large make good holes too. Nothing wrong with simmons, i have some, just never shot anything with them. Awesome video too.
Thanks!
Hey Jeff, do you think a 45lb(Cairn) bow which im probly pulling 43lbs, have enough power to get a pass thru with a 190 gr. tree shark?, I got a set of Swamps but I really in love with that big 2+" cut. but i want to make sure the lower pounds will have enough KE to get it done, this is my first season with a Trad bow, and hopefully this will be my first deer with Trad as well as my first deer on public and I don't want to leave anything to chance, thanks!
Woodsman is my choice. 3 blade means more cutting= more damage. Cut on contact starting at the hair.
Absolutely!
Man this video was timely! I killed my first trad bow deer the morn after I watched this video. I am shooting a 40# Sage elite. Zwickey Eskilite 2-blade. I got excellent penetration but had a terrible blood trail.
Thanks man I appreciate that and this one was from the heart.
Great video Jeff. Being primarily an elk hunter I too wonder about the penetration I would get from a shark when shooting an elk. Do you have any personal experience or do you know of anyone who has used them on elk?
I’m sure they have, and the penetration is actually very good with them!
Great information, which Simmons head do you use?
Swamp Shark 👍🏻
Deadmeats hit exactly where u aim with tons of blood!
I’m getting my first trad bow soon. How can I get in touch with you to order some arrows?
I haven't looked. But, do you have a video on the cheap Amazon "disposable" broadheads?
No sir I haven’t tried any and honestly won’t, broadheads are something I never ever skimp on just a personal thing lol.
The KE of a compound is up around 68 lbs, while recurves are more in the 35 to 40 lb KE range....thus not near the penetration for "bone breaker" type broadheads. Bigger cuts means more blood and trauma. Very good information presented in this one.
If you wanna try another sharp out of the pack one, simmons makos are good too. Not huge, 1 1/4" main blade and 7/8 bleeders but theyre nasty sharp and tough as nails
Oh yes!
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 i use tree shark glue ons and land sharks mainly but i bought a pack of 125s to try and am very impressed for the price
Sir what is your opinion on the zwickey cliff and no mercy
They’re tried and true! I think any sharp head with structural integrity and made of tool grade steel will do the job when it comes to shoulder hits but behind the shoulder almost any head will put them down, I just love the blood trails that ones like Simmons Sharks offer 👍🏻
Right now I'm using G5 Montec 100gr heads with 100gr inserts on 500 spine GT Warriors cut to 30" out of a 50# longbow. I've never taken a deer with a bow before, just got into archery and can keep a 8" group at 20-25 yards but plan to limit myself to about 12-15 where I can get it down to 4". Do you think my setup is sufficient or should I switch some things up? I've also got some Bear Razorheads and Zwickey Eskimo broadheads but haven't been able to mess with them yet to see how they fly whereas the G5 blades I've been using the practice points for and have also shot them and know where they hit.
Please ditch the montecs, they’re the loudest head in flight I’ve ever heard which will 💯 cause a deer to react, I’d go with something else but if you plan on shooting only really close distance then that’s probably not going to be an issue, the whistling noise they make. I also like a little bigger cutting diameter personally 👍🏻
A question for you sir if I may. With the Simmons broad heads coming in with outside the norm weights, do you bare shaft tune your arrows a tad on the stiff side to accommodate the heavier Simmons?
For example. The Swampshark says 175 gr but they come in on the heavier side. Would you tune to 175 field tip a bit stiff and have the shark come in on the dime? Or would you add washers to make up the difference?
Yes sir exactly, my Swamp Sharks actually weigh anywhere from 10-20 grains more than labeled so like in that case I bare shaft with a 200 grain field point because I always want my bare shaft a hair weak if anything never stiff so that if I short draw the bow in a hunting situation somehow without thinking whether it be from cold weather or just plain buck fever lol I’ll still have great flight so I usually tune with a slightly heavier weight than the head but usually it’s only Simmons that are off but still my favorite 😍
190 gr. Tree Sharks for the win!!!!
Sorry Jeff, but I must mention this.
Before I use 28inch arrows, and had a Gap on 12 inch on 19 yards distance
Now with full length 32.5 inch arrow, My Gap is 3.5 inch on same distance
My bow is a Longbow 45lbs
For sure, all my friends that gap run longer arrows to tighten up the gap especially under 25 yards 👍🏻
Simmons, because there is no such thing as too dead!
Well, getting a bigger cut will kill them faster, whereas getting extra penetrating power beyond what you need for a full passthrough won't do anything at all.
I’m surprised your even to make videos on the topic considering our political situation….. even though this is probably one of the first form of hunting. Thanks for the advice!
I've had some good blood trails with a single bevel but had a couple good hits this year with no blood. Sucks dck
Compound bow = single bevel trad bow = large double bevel or three point like a woodsman
I really want to see and hear your thought on mechanical broadheads. If you agree with cutting surface and blood loss, how could you not shoot mechanical? Is it due to the draw weight and low speeds of trad bows?? I ask because I’m shooting trad, but can’t stand fixed blades. I’ve always shot mechanicals out of my compound and crossbow. They fly so much better. But I’m worried about penetration
@@foxtailmedia8189 exactly, a trad bow even at 50# just doesn’t have enough kinetic energy and momentum to guarantee a full deployment with any resistance, I’ve actually shot deer with a Rage just to test it out and almost no penetration, it’s like the blade deployment actually stops the arrow especially if it hits any ribs or bones unlike a sharp two blade like a Simmons that really cuts a huge wound channel and gets great penetration as well!
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 thanks for the advice. I’ve been told that many times now with trad equipment. Gonna stick with fixed for trad
I’m curious of their penetration due to the blade angle
The Simmons heads penetrated unbelievably for me this year passing through like hot butter! But I definitely had them sharpened right!
Tree sharks will definitely get it done
Are you using the Timber, swamp, or land shark. They make so many different broadheads
Yes they do lol and they’re all great but my favorite is the original land shark and the swamp sharks👍🏻
If you run 175 grain field point..But wanna use 190 broadheads how much will that effect your arrow flight??
Not much, it’s probably close enough but I usually bare shaft with 200 grain field points for 190 grain broadheads but you’ll be okay with 175’s👍🏻
What about glue on options ?
I’d probably go with a woodsman for a glue on or at least something with a fairly big cutting surface 👍🏻
@@instinctiveaddictionarcher8998 thx buddy
Jeff what about a recurve on steroids…..Oneida Phoenix
Lol I shot a Phoenix for a while and yes they’re really fun but I could honestly shoot better with a traditional recurve plus you can’t silence them a whole lot so for the cost I’d get a higher end ILF setup 👍🏻
I recall Dr.Ed saying that he thought you needed to approach 0.5 in momentum to achieve "heavy bone" breaking potential. Not possible with lower pound trad bow set ups. Now, on deer, what's heavy bone, and how are you going to strike it and with what? SO many variables.
Exactly! I’m just believing you have to get behind the shoulder unless it’s a very close shot with a powerful bow and a relatively heavy arrow setup.
If you're getting pass through shots all the time, then you need a bigger head.
Shoot a 55lb bow with a 650+ grain arrow and you’re gonna bust bones all day long brother.
Ashby got a full pass through on a water buffalo with a 40lb longbow!
Good video!
Yes sir I’m a believer for sure I talk about it all the time and honestly it does take a 650gr plus arrow to really see a difference at least in my tests it did!
Don’t shoot a deer with that 4” broadhead and a 45# (or less poundage) trad bow…not enough KE/Momentum and too many SLUG factors with that wide of a cutting broadhead. It’s probably gonna hit, go in about 1” and bounce out…and your never gonna find that deer…bc a deer on 1 lung can go for hours/miles…DONT DO IT-TRUST ME!
You can’t control blood trails maybe if u were shooting 700 grain arrows you would got pass through . Good video
Yes sir, I’ve actually found my best setup this season, I’ve gotten four complete pass through shots with a 48# recurve using a 530 grain arrow super light shafts with 300 grains up front with Simmons Sharks and VPA heads! They’re shooting a bit faster and really punching through leaving great blood trails so I’m very satisfied with this year’s results 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻