I agree Daniel on the fact that the rulebook is too many pages. But I learned to play the game with the rulebook. Took my first gameplay a 3 day ordeal, but I got to grips with it. I love the game, it’s a fantastic dungeon crawl for me. Just have to remind yourself when you set it up it has to stay on the table for a week😉 But I have had such great moments with this game. This will stay in my collection.
2nd Printing is now up on Kickstarter. Looks like the rulebook is the same, but there is a link to download a Quick Reference Guide PDF -- which is a prettied up version of a fan-made "Detailed Reference" from BGG. So it looks like there are dedicated fans that think it's worth making more approachable.
Just updating here. The KS finished a couple months ago. The rules are updated based on lots of feedback. It's still a sprawling, fiddly game, but you know that going into it. If you want a sprawling, layered epic old school dungeon crawler, then this is it. Make sure you have dedicated table space, -and lots of it!
When i first saw the board it reminded me of the DUNGEON! Game board from the '80s, as to the colors being so vivid in different places, and almost the same color hues too. The rooms were color coded per danger level and treasure level i believe it was. My uncle had that game and i never got to play it. It was more for teens and not so complicated,but still good for an adventuring feeling. The wizard was always the problem as it could be very OP after awhile, i mean not a problem for the person who got to pick the wizard, a problem for everyone that couldnt get it. Lol
This first Dungeon (tile set) has a complete different Dungeon on the backside. The Dungeon on the backside is completely different. I actually love the backside very much. It has much less "Disco" and a lot more detail(s). IN fact I pretty much see every photo of DC with the Ruins board when I believe the reverse side is really awesome! IN fact even smaller things like the wall on the Ruins board are simple thick black lines where the reverse side has detailed brick like wall tops. Either way the entire game is amazing. I have played D&D since there has been D&D and DC has me really excited for great Dungeon Crawls again. The ARTWORK is incredible. The game system is awesome. But, it is taking me a bit to soak it all in. It's less of a boardgame and like an entire game system and WORLD played out on tabletop.
I totally agree with all your criticisms and pros. I've been loving this game sooooo much, and I've only gotten through one quest table and just finished my first Celebration Day. This is like Dungeonquest on steriods and cocaine, but with some much needed updated rules mechanics! Anyway, like always, great video, and Rodger, if you're listening, congratulations on this beast of a game! p.s. I think you have too many minions out compared to your minion track on the u.i. board (I believe I saw it set at 4). Also, personally, I think I'll always play with the trap deck. It can make it a little more deadly, but it's so worth it! I'm thinking of house ruling that if you successfully dodge a trap, that you get 1 Life-force for doing it.
Awesome! I think we've all been waiting for this video for a long time now. Excited to carve out 40 minutes later tonight to take it in while playing some Outward on PC :)
This is an incredibly fair summation. I hope the shared concerns pointed out here don't fall of deaf ears. This should be a game of the year contender with a rulebook editor. Some poor BGG soul will spend 30+ hours editing a rules Pdf. This is a brilliant game that makes me work so hard, so much to manage and upkeep. I have played over 600 games for 6 years, I own 320 titles, and I've never prepped so hard as I did for this one, mechanically and physically. Reading and videos for 15 hours before I felt comfortable setting it up. Its wild the extra time and money I put into it. But it is really special experience - REALLY DAMN GLORIOUS THAT TELLS AMAZING FANTASY STORIES - but sweet lord.
It would be super cool if the customizable nature of this game inspires a healthy modding/hacking community to develop around it. The simplicity of the mechanics combined with the modular options settings seems like a playground for people wanting to create their own content and house rules.
Great review Daniel thanks. This made me want the game even more! Shame about the rulebook (especially since I like the look of the art, layout, examples, fonts & color so much), but I'll deal with it. What bothers me more is that the Dungeon boards aren't labeled? Icons are mis-matched? Hard to see how those were overlooked. The icons will really, really bother me, but again I'll deal with it.
Good review my friend! There is really a great game here. ...I believe you did a video a while back about playing games in short bursts. Having a game set up, playing a round or two a d going about your day. This is the quintessential game for that. I don’t know why folks get hung up on play time. ...you set up a game, play it. If it takes 1 hour or 8 hours just enjoy then story. I’ve had this set up on my table for weeks. And you’re right about the rule book. It’s a tough read and there are multiple contradictions and things that seem down right arbitrary. It needed a Quick Start guide and scenario based rules explanations. ...what we have here is an amazing experience and I love that it’s not the move, move, fight rinse and repeat of the majority of other Dungeon crawls. The game comes across to me as one that wasn’t play tested, or had much input from outside Rodgers vision. I love Rodger and what he has created and hopefully we’ll get a concise FAQ that boils these Rules down to about 2-3 pages.
Playtime is an issue for me as I would need to use the family dining table. A lot of people don’t have a dedicated table for playing board games on. This is what limits my playtime to around 2 to 3 hours.
@@jamesmit7914 That's a good point. It's an issue for me, as well, because I have to get different games rotated to the table to continue to make videos.
Thank you for this honest first review. In this day and age, we are drowning in games and therefore rulebook roadblocks to those games. I like gaming not reading rules, but it is a necessary evil. One major and VERY important handicap of this hobby is that to play a game one must learn the rules. There is no game worth the headache and frustration of a rulebook that had, against repeated public advice, no professional editing. It borders on disrespect to the reader. The game may be amazing but any seasoned gamer with other games to play will know not to waste too much time if confronted with a terrible rulebook, our majority of allotted hobby time should be spent gaming not prepping for a game. I would have put it back in the shelf and waited a bit for updated rules as well, if I had backed it. I sold my Myth, and thats when I learned this much frustration is not worth it. It looks beautiful though.
Myth is the most frustrated game I've ever played. An absolutely amazing game almost entirely ruined by poor documentation and communication about what the game actually is.
@@TheDungeonDive The original Myth rules or the revised rules? I've been thinking of picking up a copy of Myth with the updated rules simply because (rule book aside) the rest of the game and its mechanics look so appealing to me.
Don’t. It’s almost impossible to get enough stuff to have a complete game. Every time you get something, you realize that you need to upgrade something else, or there’s something you can’t get. It’s almost impossible to get what you need to have what you will want to enjoy the game.
Thanks for your insights Daniel, your observations on what tends to be frustrating and great in a dungeon crawler are always spot on. I’m sort of regretting not backing this now - think it drew up too many red flags for me when I first considered it, despite Rodger having both your support and Rob’s. How do think it compares gameplay-wise with Altar Quest? (Beyond the issues with the rules.). And do you know for sure if/when there will be a reprint or second edition down the line?
This is one of the most interesting games I ever wanted to play - - but with all that I see concerning the rulebook, I feel like my brain is gonna be beaten to pulp just by attempting to understand the rules.
Thanks for your comments. I have been looking forward to getting this game for so long! I have worried about Rodger's, shall we say... propensity... for verbosity in the rulebook. I am excited to finally get it to the table, and I also hope someone will try to distill the rulebook down.
I’m really looking forward to that as well. It will be a much more pleasant experience for sure. Will make loving the game easier, and that’s something the game deserves.
A gigantic map with hundreds of pieces and cards in a game dripping with lore that's contained in a rulebook large enough to be a scripture!? It's as if someone manifested the word "Ameritrash" into a game, I want it! I do hope they can edit down the rulebook to something a bit more streamlined, and I certainly agree with you on that consistency in icons. It seems like it'd be a really fun thing to dive into, though. As much as I'd want to play this with a friend, I feel like it looks like when someone's making a satire on niche board games, but from what I've been seeing, folks have been enjoying solo play, so that's nice! I kind of want to keep my ear to the ground to see if there's any talk of a reprinting for some of those issues that I feel can be ironed out with some better editing, but even if there isn't, I wouldn't mind biting the bullet to give it a shot! Excellent video, by the way!
Looks like a pretty good crawler overall! i like the art style. i might be wrong, but the theme seems to me rather shallow unfortunately. I really can't understand why most kickstarters have rulebook problems. I love Darklight, but even there there were some problems with the way the rules were written. I ended up re-writing half of it with clear examples when translating for the Italian community. If i'll ever make a kickstarter dungeoncrawler i will surely write the rules in most concisive manner, and will fill it up with tons of art on each page!! like gw used to make in the 90s
The theme is there, it’s just a bit in the generic high fantasy camp, but the game creates some really great thematic moments the will draw you in once you crest that hill.
I think where this game would have also benefited was to have a separate product manager. Like you were mentioning Daniel about the inconsistencies in the iconography and board layouts and whatnot, there are many elements to the entire production that would have benefited from more eyes/hands on deck. The examples I mentioned in the Facebook group were around the scenario book and the character selection. If you only bought the core game and not the dungeon board add-on pack during the kickstarter, half of the scenarios that come with the core game are unplayable as you only get two out of the four sets of maps referenced in that book. The game asks you to pick six characters to start your adventure. The core box only comes with six, you need to have bought the character add-on in order to have an actual choice of characters. A product manager could have caught this kind of thing and re-worked how things were packaged/grouped together to avoid what appears on the surface as kind of shifty design. Like if I had just bought the core box and none of the add-ons, I would feel a bit ripped off if I am being honest. There were also discrepancies in the overall component quality. While the dungeon boards were sturdy and very high quality, and the tokens were pretty solid, the cards and all of the other boards for the game were cheaper, and in some cases like with the cards, they warp after a time. Having a product person onboard to go back and forth with manufacturers and get actual mock-ups and proofs of things before production would have been a boon. If this was 2012 and Kickstarter was brand-new, this game's inconsistencies would be par for the course. Here in 2021 we have been spoiled with slicker, more tightly designed and produced games, and I can't help but compare Dungeon Crusade to those newer, more polished efforts. Ultimately for me, this whole game was a parable with the theme "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should". You could easily remove every single mini-game and lose nothing from the core gaming experience. The gambling mini-games especially, like why on earth would I want to play Blackjack (err, Skulljack) against myself? Again, a product manager could have made a huge difference here. The Avalon mini-game should have been split off and released as a free PnP game to whet people's appetites for the main Dungeon Crusade experience, in its current form it's over-produced and adds very little value at $20. The cards and whatnot for the quests could have been a 16 page booklet/pdf easily. Ditto Bravely The Knight or the weird mini-arena dungeon crawling game you could also opt into. Had the creator focused on the main DC experience and left all of those other ideas alone, the game would have benefited tremendously. It's always a temptation when you are creating something to put every single idea you've ever had into that first creation, but when you do things like that, all of your ideas end up suffering. I feel like somewhere in DC there is a great game but in its current form it definitely wasn't for me and I sold it to someone else. I shouldn't have to watch hours and hours of development diary videos or read thousands and thousands of words in Kickstarter updates to learn how to play a game, especially one that I spent over $200 USD on with all of the bells and whistles. This was what stuck in my craw the most, actually! I paid more to get the full experience of this game than I spent on many, many other dungeon crawling games and the quality is so far removed from any other game I've purchased in the last 5 years that I was taken aback. Like right from receiving the box (mine was smashed) there was something off. Everyone wants to cut the creator slack because this was his first game and he did it alone and is a super nice guy etc. but there is no virtue in re-inventing the wheel or not trying to leverage the experiences of others when producing a game you expect people to spend money on. Several solo creators were able to solve the problems of cleaning up their rulebooks and having quality production values before this game was released, and they are all Chatty Kathy's. You can literally approach the creator of Gloomhaven and ask questions about production and he actually answers those questions for example. There is no excuse for the shoddiness here. As good as some of the systems are and as neat as the ideas are, this isn't really a game so much as it is a chore. I am looking forward to see what happens next for sure, but my sincere hopes is that he does what you said Daniel and invokes proper playtesters, editors and people skilled at producing things.
It's been a long time since this video release Daniel, still, I'm wondering if are you goin to cover more about this game in the future. A new version is coming and I'm curious about what you think about it; seems like the rulebook has been shinked ^^
Which is your "Saturday afternoon adventure, Dungeon Universalis or Dungeon Crusade? I am looking for that dungeon crawl adventure. The game that you play on a Saturday, not to weave your way through rules or solve tactical puzzles, but to get lost in the adventure and to have emergent story. Shadows of Brimstone does this I think the best so far in my collection. Dungeon Universalis is interesting, but I worry it is more for the RP crowd and requires too much self DMing and a pen & paper type mindset. The living dungeon part of DC with the random monster paths and such look VERY appealing. As an owner of Myth, I fear a rule book I have to fight though.
It sounds to me like Dungeon Crusade would be a good game for you for this. The rule book is not bad, nothing like the Myth 1.0 rule book, it's just overly wordy and takes a very long to read, and it's difficult to locate answers while you are playing because of the length.
That rulebook makes S&S look like a breeze. I love dungeon crawlers but despite all the positives expressed i cannot see me putting in the time and effort to play this one yet. Also looking after 6 characters sounds a lot plus controlling the dungeon responses. I do see there is a great game in here and the art and production is better than i expected. I wonder how many people can keep a game that size up permanently in their home. I will keep an eye on it for sure and see if it gets some simplification in the future.
I think that it looks amazing but it wouldn't fit on my table!? Also there appear to be few copies in the UK so it would be expensivbe to buy second hand and have shipped.
Hello D.j. and everyone, and good evening. Rodger here, and I hope that everyone is doing great and ready for a fantastic weekend. I wanted to say thank you to D.j. for the overview you did on Dungeon Crusade. We're very grateful to you. I did want to point out a few things... DISPLAY THE FULL GAME AND ITS CONTENTS: I wished you would have shown the game in all of its glory and what it's comprised of. What I mean is, I realize you have limited space, but as a reviewer and for people tuning in, it would have been good to arrange your area to at least show everything that Dungeon Crusade is comprised of, even for 5 to 10 minutes. Then cut to the video of the custom content you created. I've never seen a review or reviewer that did a review, created their own content for the game to show, and didn't show what this custom-designed content was based on. It would have been nice to show and discuss with viewers: What the Village board looks like. What the Dungeon U.I. board looks like. The dungeon fully setup with the chamber doors. Show the chamber doors with colored plastic bases and the key system that goes along with it. (Jade key, Onyx key, Golden key, and the Ivory key) I'm sure people would have enjoyed seeing all this game content first, then what you had created. If you did another video, it would be great to show off this content and the dungeon fully set up for people to check out. For anyone reading this, feel free to head over to the Groovus Games Unlimited TH-cam channel and check out the spotlight video series on Dungeon Crusade. The first video in this series is the introduction to Dungeon Crusade, and I think you'll enjoy it. :) Spotlight video series th-cam.com/play/PLHuoGWtNACPMiKAl5FFj4O5ojWML3mAG4.html EDIT: I forgot to mention this when I posted this. Stay tuned for the new video series we are working on for the Groovus Games Unlimited TH-cam channel, where I will be teaching people how to set up and play both the Avalon Adventure board game and Dungeon Crusade. I think people are really going to enjoy these videos in particular and will get them acclimated to both games quite quickly. This new series will be very straight to the point, focused, and not too chatty, other than teaching people about the games. HOW THE CRUSADERS' HANDBOOK WAS CREATED: I had mentioned this before and would like to share this again. When you discussed the length of the rulebook, it would have been good if you had mentioned the 6 different sections of the Crusaders' Handbook. Dungeon Crusade is a fairly creative and innovative game, so it called for an equally creative and innovative rulebook. I have mentioned this in the past, and, in a few messages to people, I took the time needed to write/craft/structure a very comprehensive rulebook for Dungeon Crusade. In the creation of it, I also created it in such a way that it was a good read and quite thematic. I had mentioned I didn't just write the Dungeon Crusade rulebook, but I had to write/structure 6 different rulebooks. For... - Dungeon Crusade (the game itself) - The Avalon Adventure board game - The House of Chance games which are: - Tower Attack! - Skull Jack - The Adventures of Bravely the Knight - Heroes vs. Monsters So this is genuinely one rulebook to rule them all. IMPORTANT!: But when you start out reading it, all that you need to know is the main rules for Dungeon Crusade. That's it. Then, as you get more acclimated to the game, you can learn more about the game in the other sections of the rulebook and incorporate it into your game sessions. The Crusaders' Handbook was never meant to be read in one sitting. Some people are under that misconception. Take it slowly-one section at a time. Again, thank you, D.j. for taking the time to do an overview of Dungeon Crusade. I hope that you and everyone reading this has an excellent weekend. Talk to you soon...Rodger :)
Agree on the rulebook, it was the hardest rulebook to get into I have ever seen. This put me off backing the game, which is a shame as this looks good! It doesn’t seem like the designer has taken this on board, as there seems to be no concession on the shortcomings of the book, only a defence of how the book was put together. Hopefully a new rulebook a third of the size will be released for the next edition, fingers crossed!
@@jamesmit7914 I agree. The crucial point is, we all want to play and experience the actual game when it arrives at home and not being hindered by spending hours and hours with reading of a rulebook. And the statement that it should be read in sessions makes the problem absolutely apparent.
Yeah. For real. This isn’t ASL. We should be able to learn this game in an hour. It’s on the same level as DungeonQuest and WHQ. These are easy games to learn.
BTW Rodger, I showed all of the components in SUPER great detail in my component deep dive parts of the Dungeon Crusade playlist. That's how I do a lot of my reviews here on the dungeon dive - different videos for different parts of the game. My viewers really like that. th-cam.com/video/hwX4Jil8AFY/w-d-xo.html
When you say zero to hero, do you mean characters go from level 1 to level 3 (that's the highest right?) in a single session? If that's true, then this game goes way up in my want list. I loved Descent 1e for doing this because not everyone has the time to invest in a sprawling campaign. I prefer the all day one-off sessions as opposed to committing to multiple, if not a dozen sessions.
@@TheDungeonDive thanks! Let’s call it a weekend/week-long adventure then 😉. I’m just happy to see a non-campaign crawler with this much going on, yet is simple to play. This game is a homebrewer dream.
@@TheDungeonDive Yes, I found it last night - looks a lot better. Your vid comparing this with DUN and LoD is a very good resource. I will probably go with DUN (awaiting delivery on current print), even though it looks a bit of a handful.
I'm confident in the conclusion I drew when looking this game up. Once the honeymoon phase is over, this is a game that will sit on the shelf because people won't want to lug it all out and deal with it.
re: Rulebook - He could use a Coach on his team. He's stuck. His stuckness is in his head, wanting to get his own story out. He's stuck, imo, in that he wants to connect himself to others rather than let go and present a product to others. A Coach could help him.
It sadly just does not scratch an itch with me visually. The rainbow coloured board and bright colours even on the cards are just not my kind of taste.
Rodger should have included a rulebook guardian monster in the game that roams around and is undefeatable, instead of putting it in the game box and defeating me from playing.
Yeah this is up on Kickstarter again but funding is slow. The project page is so overloaded with info it’s overkill. I’m not even sure if the guy has improved the rulebook to eliminate all the confusion and unnecessary text. Honestly, the only appeal I have is the dungeon boards and the standees which look awesome and remind me of old school Heroquest. I love that look to the game. However, I can’t justify the cost of a game that is an uphill struggle and too long. I also have no interest in the Avalon (map) Adventure Game which I found boring when I watched a play through. Is it all one game or two games? I didn’t read into it enough to find out.
@@TheDungeonDive so two different games but no separate pledges? As I said, I have zero interest in Avalon Adventure Game but if I wanted Dungeon Crusade, I’m forced into buying that as well. Definitely a pass.
Thanks for this video. To me, the rulebook is so terrible. It is so boring to read, so redundant and in some instances so unfocused. I think about selling this game. I cannot imagine that this game is good enough that reading that book is worth it at all. I do not have any problems with complex and long rulebooks in general (S&S, Galaxy Defenders, Perdition's Mouth). But it was exciting to read them. In DC the rulebook is killing me. Seriously, it needs a complete overhaul to shrink it down to 30 pages max (which is possible). But due to your video, I will try it again...maybe...but then the play time is another factor. So many hours for such a simple core gameplay? Oh boy...
It's a simple core gameplay but each turn is always a great moment, between what you think you will do, what the encouter do, your move, and monster move. Without talking about traps, treasure and champions. It's a long game, but each turn is rreally a good moment, and I find it less repetitive than games like D&D boardgame, SoB, as it's not Move, fight, move, fight. As Daniel said, there's always something moving in the dungeon, and not only where your adventurers are. Give it a chance.
@@Boardgamer69 German users rate it 6 to 7 at best, so very mediocre as it seems. In competition to S&S, Machina Arcana or the stellar Lost Tomb, I am really sceptical about playing DC instead for so many hours...
@@DieNische I don't care about rating, and I find it better than Lost Tomb, better than Machina Arcana, or S&S(the one hour combat system game). So It can be rated 2 by people, for me it's a great game. It plays well when you know the rules, the gameplay is fast enough considering you're managing 6 heroes and a living dungeon.
How much of the game experience is lost if you play the 'short game?' Would characters be able to level up or buy gear as I thought this took place in the village phase between the quest lines. The playtime on the back of the box is listed 90-180 minutes and by all accounts that is not even close to realistic. I think it is fine if the game was designed to be an all-day epic dungeon crawl, but I don't think that was conveyed in Rodger's videos. Because the game looks so simple and inviting, I certainly was not expecting the 8-15 hour playtime that players have described to get the 'full' experience of the game. Even if all of the rulebook issues were not a factor, it's still a demanding game to tackle and it may be too much for a lot of players which is a shame because as you said, there are a lot of really cool aspects to the game. I wish Rodger had ironed out a short version of the game where you could draw a random quest each time you play, still using a similar seeding system but with a total playing time of a couple hours as the default experience, and then listed the full expanded rules as an option for the more hardcore zealous players.
You definitely lose some of the game by not playing a full scenario - leveling up, and buying higher tier gear. You're just going to have to find what works best for you, a short game or a full game. Right now, I'm liking shorter games so I can experience the different dungeon boards.
The rulebook is a mess. The mechanics of the game are simple as you said. But even the simplest aspects are explained in a repetitive manner. You need to read everything as you cannot see where to find the really relevant information. And even worse, the rulebook is hard to use a reference book. It is clear why you made your own reference sheets. To summarize for me, the time for reading, setup and playing the game does not correlate with fun, excitement and tension I had during my play so far. I am really missing a tension curve like in other crawlers. After the 1st Quest Level I feel tired and already bored to some extent. Combat and the patrol route system are also not exciting in my impression. I think the best part of the game are the Encounter cards which feel interesting and have a lot of variety. I absolutely appreciate the work of Roger and can see the passion he had put into this project. But the game should have been condensed. And not only in terms of table presence. DC is a game I can play once per year.
Have suddenly lost any interest to get this to the table any time soon. I skipped the adventure board game and the other side games and just got the core game.
Dungeon Crusade Play list:
th-cam.com/play/PLKewgRd8Eir_KOt6xs32I1jyCmwrRWKda.html
Well, if you ever got a message from Rodger.. You'll understand why the rules are that wordy..
I agree Daniel on the fact that the rulebook is too many pages. But I learned to play the game with the rulebook. Took my first gameplay a 3 day ordeal, but I got to grips with it. I love the game, it’s a fantastic dungeon crawl for me. Just have to remind yourself when you set it up it has to stay on the table for a week😉 But I have had such great moments with this game. This will stay in my collection.
The patrol route system is such a creative and brilliant idea. That's one of the mechanics I'm most excited to see in action on my table.
It’s good. It’s simple and does exactly what it sets out to do.
we gave it a spin here in Spain and its great
Sounds like I should wait on a second edition. Hopefully he hires an editor next time and has some true play test groups run the game independently.
Rodger needs a publisher.
2nd Printing is now up on Kickstarter. Looks like the rulebook is the same, but there is a link to download a Quick Reference Guide PDF -- which is a prettied up version of a fan-made "Detailed Reference" from BGG. So it looks like there are dedicated fans that think it's worth making more approachable.
Just updating here. The KS finished a couple months ago. The rules are updated based on lots of feedback. It's still a sprawling, fiddly game, but you know that going into it. If you want a sprawling, layered epic old school dungeon crawler, then this is it. Make sure you have dedicated table space, -and lots of it!
I like the saturday night fever dance dungeon.
When i first saw the board it reminded me of the DUNGEON! Game board from the '80s, as to the colors being so vivid in different places, and almost the same color hues too.
The rooms were color coded per danger level and treasure level i believe it was. My uncle had that game and i never got to play it. It was more for teens and not so complicated,but still good for an adventuring feeling. The wizard was always the problem as it could be very OP after awhile, i mean not a problem for the person who got to pick the wizard, a problem for everyone that couldnt get it. Lol
This first Dungeon (tile set) has a complete different Dungeon on the backside. The Dungeon on the backside is completely different. I actually love the backside very much. It has much less "Disco" and a lot more detail(s). IN fact I pretty much see every photo of DC with the Ruins board when I believe the reverse side is really awesome! IN fact even smaller things like the wall on the Ruins board are simple thick black lines where the reverse side has detailed brick like wall tops. Either way the entire game is amazing. I have played D&D since there has been D&D and DC has me really excited for great Dungeon Crawls again. The ARTWORK is incredible. The game system is awesome. But, it is taking me a bit to soak it all in. It's less of a boardgame and like an entire game system and WORLD played out on tabletop.
I totally agree with all your criticisms and pros. I've been loving this game sooooo much, and I've only gotten through one quest table and just finished my first Celebration Day. This is like Dungeonquest on steriods and cocaine, but with some much needed updated rules mechanics! Anyway, like always, great video, and Rodger, if you're listening, congratulations on this beast of a game!
p.s. I think you have too many minions out compared to your minion track on the u.i. board (I believe I saw it set at 4).
Also, personally, I think I'll always play with the trap deck. It can make it a little more deadly, but it's so worth it! I'm thinking of house ruling that if you successfully dodge a trap, that you get 1 Life-force for doing it.
This scenario has a quest with additional minions.
I'm going to house rule the traps the same way - to create an incentive to trigger them, like a hero is trying to disarm them.
Awesome! I think we've all been waiting for this video for a long time now. Excited to carve out 40 minutes later tonight to take it in while playing some Outward on PC :)
This is an incredibly fair summation. I hope the shared concerns pointed out here don't fall of deaf ears. This should be a game of the year contender with a rulebook editor. Some poor BGG soul will spend 30+ hours editing a rules Pdf. This is a brilliant game that makes me work so hard, so much to manage and upkeep. I have played over 600 games for 6 years, I own 320 titles, and I've never prepped so hard as I did for this one, mechanically and physically. Reading and videos for 15 hours before I felt comfortable setting it up. Its wild the extra time and money I put into it. But it is really special experience - REALLY DAMN GLORIOUS THAT TELLS AMAZING FANTASY STORIES - but sweet lord.
Thank you. I think so too. :).
This board... oh my gosh! What a sight!
The game has a great look.
It would be super cool if the customizable nature of this game inspires a healthy modding/hacking community to develop around it. The simplicity of the mechanics combined with the modular options settings seems like a playground for people wanting to create their own content and house rules.
Seems like he needs an art book. Then he can put all the story he wants in there. Then just make a bare bones manual.
The thing is, there really isn’t much story at all in the rule book. It’s all rules.
Well, this kind of game is my jam so I hope he gets it sorted out. I will watch for a future Kickstarter for it.
Great review Daniel thanks. This made me want the game even more! Shame about the rulebook (especially since I like the look of the art, layout, examples, fonts & color so much), but I'll deal with it. What bothers me more is that the Dungeon boards aren't labeled? Icons are mis-matched? Hard to see how those were overlooked. The icons will really, really bother me, but again I'll deal with it.
I totally agree with you’re assessment but it is a lot of fun.
It is really fun. There’s a lot to love.
What's the physical table presence of that board? Looks like 3' by 4' or something. It's massive!
2x3 for the main board. My table is slightly smaller than 3x4.
Good review my friend! There is really a great game here. ...I believe you did a video a while back about playing games in short bursts. Having a game set up, playing a round or two a d going about your day. This is the quintessential game for that. I don’t know why folks get hung up on play time. ...you set up a game, play it. If it takes 1 hour or 8 hours just enjoy then story. I’ve had this set up on my table for weeks. And you’re right about the rule book. It’s a tough read and there are multiple contradictions and things that seem down right arbitrary. It needed a Quick Start guide and scenario based rules explanations. ...what we have here is an amazing experience and I love that it’s not the move, move, fight rinse and repeat of the majority of other Dungeon crawls. The game comes across to me as one that wasn’t play tested, or had much input from outside Rodgers vision. I love Rodger and what he has created and hopefully we’ll get a concise FAQ that boils these Rules down to about 2-3 pages.
Thanks, Pedro!
Playtime is an issue for me as I would need to use the family dining table. A lot of people don’t have a dedicated table for playing board games on. This is what limits my playtime to around 2 to 3 hours.
@@jamesmit7914 That's a good point. It's an issue for me, as well, because I have to get different games rotated to the table to continue to make videos.
Thank you for this honest first review. In this day and age, we are drowning in games and therefore rulebook roadblocks to those games. I like gaming not reading rules, but it is a necessary evil. One major and VERY important handicap of this hobby is that to play a game one must learn the rules. There is no game worth the headache and frustration of a rulebook that had, against repeated public advice, no professional editing. It borders on disrespect to the reader. The game may be amazing but any seasoned gamer with other games to play will know not to waste too much time if confronted with a terrible rulebook, our majority of allotted hobby time should be spent gaming not prepping for a game. I would have put it back in the shelf and waited a bit for updated rules as well, if I had backed it. I sold my Myth, and thats when I learned this much frustration is not worth it. It looks beautiful though.
Myth is the most frustrated game I've ever played. An absolutely amazing game almost entirely ruined by poor documentation and communication about what the game actually is.
@@TheDungeonDive The original Myth rules or the revised rules? I've been thinking of picking up a copy of Myth with the updated rules simply because (rule book aside) the rest of the game and its mechanics look so appealing to me.
I have my eye out for the upcoming Myth kickstarter...the hope never died.
Don’t. It’s almost impossible to get enough stuff to have a complete game. Every time you get something, you realize that you need to upgrade something else, or there’s something you can’t get. It’s almost impossible to get what you need to have what you will want to enjoy the game.
@@TheDungeonDive Ah ok. Thanks for the heads up
Thanks for your insights Daniel, your observations on what tends to be frustrating and great in a dungeon crawler are always spot on.
I’m sort of regretting not backing this now - think it drew up too many red flags for me when I first considered it, despite Rodger having both your support and Rob’s.
How do think it compares gameplay-wise with Altar Quest? (Beyond the issues with the rules.). And do you know for sure if/when there will be a reprint or second edition down the line?
The two games are nothing alike except they both take place in a dungeon, and I prefer DC. The game will be in print again.
The Dungeon Dive Thanks. Will keep an eye out for the next Kickstarter.
This is one of the most interesting games I ever wanted to play - - but with all that I see concerning the rulebook, I feel like my brain is gonna be beaten to pulp just by attempting to understand the rules.
Thanks for your comments. I have been looking forward to getting this game for so long! I have worried about Rodger's, shall we say... propensity... for verbosity in the rulebook. I am excited to finally get it to the table, and I also hope someone will try to distill the rulebook down.
I’m really looking forward to that as well. It will be a much more pleasant experience for sure. Will make loving the game easier, and that’s something the game deserves.
A gigantic map with hundreds of pieces and cards in a game dripping with lore that's contained in a rulebook large enough to be a scripture!? It's as if someone manifested the word "Ameritrash" into a game, I want it! I do hope they can edit down the rulebook to something a bit more streamlined, and I certainly agree with you on that consistency in icons. It seems like it'd be a really fun thing to dive into, though. As much as I'd want to play this with a friend, I feel like it looks like when someone's making a satire on niche board games, but from what I've been seeing, folks have been enjoying solo play, so that's nice! I kind of want to keep my ear to the ground to see if there's any talk of a reprinting for some of those issues that I feel can be ironed out with some better editing, but even if there isn't, I wouldn't mind biting the bullet to give it a shot! Excellent video, by the way!
Hello TDD, merci pour la vidéo (thanks for the video) excellent
Looks like a pretty good crawler overall! i like the art style. i might be wrong, but the theme seems to me rather shallow unfortunately.
I really can't understand why most kickstarters have rulebook problems. I love Darklight, but even there there were some problems with the way the rules were written. I ended up re-writing half of it with clear examples when translating for the Italian community. If i'll ever make a kickstarter dungeoncrawler i will surely write the rules in most concisive manner, and will fill it up with tons of art on each page!! like gw used to make in the 90s
The theme is there, it’s just a bit in the generic high fantasy camp, but the game creates some really great thematic moments the will draw you in once you crest that hill.
This is the apex of heartbreaker games
I think where this game would have also benefited was to have a separate product manager. Like you were mentioning Daniel about the inconsistencies in the iconography and board layouts and whatnot, there are many elements to the entire production that would have benefited from more eyes/hands on deck. The examples I mentioned in the Facebook group were around the scenario book and the character selection. If you only bought the core game and not the dungeon board add-on pack during the kickstarter, half of the scenarios that come with the core game are unplayable as you only get two out of the four sets of maps referenced in that book. The game asks you to pick six characters to start your adventure. The core box only comes with six, you need to have bought the character add-on in order to have an actual choice of characters. A product manager could have caught this kind of thing and re-worked how things were packaged/grouped together to avoid what appears on the surface as kind of shifty design. Like if I had just bought the core box and none of the add-ons, I would feel a bit ripped off if I am being honest. There were also discrepancies in the overall component quality. While the dungeon boards were sturdy and very high quality, and the tokens were pretty solid, the cards and all of the other boards for the game were cheaper, and in some cases like with the cards, they warp after a time. Having a product person onboard to go back and forth with manufacturers and get actual mock-ups and proofs of things before production would have been a boon. If this was 2012 and Kickstarter was brand-new, this game's inconsistencies would be par for the course. Here in 2021 we have been spoiled with slicker, more tightly designed and produced games, and I can't help but compare Dungeon Crusade to those newer, more polished efforts.
Ultimately for me, this whole game was a parable with the theme "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should". You could easily remove every single mini-game and lose nothing from the core gaming experience. The gambling mini-games especially, like why on earth would I want to play Blackjack (err, Skulljack) against myself? Again, a product manager could have made a huge difference here. The Avalon mini-game should have been split off and released as a free PnP game to whet people's appetites for the main Dungeon Crusade experience, in its current form it's over-produced and adds very little value at $20. The cards and whatnot for the quests could have been a 16 page booklet/pdf easily. Ditto Bravely The Knight or the weird mini-arena dungeon crawling game you could also opt into. Had the creator focused on the main DC experience and left all of those other ideas alone, the game would have benefited tremendously. It's always a temptation when you are creating something to put every single idea you've ever had into that first creation, but when you do things like that, all of your ideas end up suffering. I feel like somewhere in DC there is a great game but in its current form it definitely wasn't for me and I sold it to someone else. I shouldn't have to watch hours and hours of development diary videos or read thousands and thousands of words in Kickstarter updates to learn how to play a game, especially one that I spent over $200 USD on with all of the bells and whistles. This was what stuck in my craw the most, actually! I paid more to get the full experience of this game than I spent on many, many other dungeon crawling games and the quality is so far removed from any other game I've purchased in the last 5 years that I was taken aback. Like right from receiving the box (mine was smashed) there was something off.
Everyone wants to cut the creator slack because this was his first game and he did it alone and is a super nice guy etc. but there is no virtue in re-inventing the wheel or not trying to leverage the experiences of others when producing a game you expect people to spend money on. Several solo creators were able to solve the problems of cleaning up their rulebooks and having quality production values before this game was released, and they are all Chatty Kathy's. You can literally approach the creator of Gloomhaven and ask questions about production and he actually answers those questions for example. There is no excuse for the shoddiness here. As good as some of the systems are and as neat as the ideas are, this isn't really a game so much as it is a chore. I am looking forward to see what happens next for sure, but my sincere hopes is that he does what you said Daniel and invokes proper playtesters, editors and people skilled at producing things.
It's been a long time since this video release Daniel, still, I'm wondering if are you goin to cover more about this game in the future. A new version is coming and I'm curious about what you think about it; seems like the rulebook has been shinked ^^
The new version is just a reprint, with an updated rule book. The new rule book is great! I love the game.
@The Dungeon Dive - can you do a whole series of the gameplay ?
No. Sorry. Too long and too many rules to remember.
Which is your "Saturday afternoon adventure, Dungeon Universalis or Dungeon Crusade? I am looking for that dungeon crawl adventure. The game that you play on a Saturday, not to weave your way through rules or solve tactical puzzles, but to get lost in the adventure and to have emergent story. Shadows of Brimstone does this I think the best so far in my collection. Dungeon Universalis is interesting, but I worry it is more for the RP crowd and requires too much self DMing and a pen & paper type mindset. The living dungeon part of DC with the random monster paths and such look VERY appealing. As an owner of Myth, I fear a rule book I have to fight though.
It sounds to me like Dungeon Crusade would be a good game for you for this. The rule book is not bad, nothing like the Myth 1.0 rule book, it's just overly wordy and takes a very long to read, and it's difficult to locate answers while you are playing because of the length.
That rulebook makes S&S look like a breeze. I love dungeon crawlers but despite all the positives expressed i cannot see me putting in the time and effort to play this one yet. Also looking after 6 characters sounds a lot plus controlling the dungeon responses. I do see there is a great game in here and the art and production is better than i expected. I wonder how many people can keep a game that size up permanently in their home. I will keep an eye on it for sure and see if it gets some simplification in the future.
The thing is, this game is a far more simple than than S&S.
I love the handbook but I wish there was a clear version "Rulebook" and "The Handbook".
I think that it looks amazing but it wouldn't fit on my table!? Also there appear to be few copies in the UK so it would be expensivbe to buy second hand and have shipped.
Woah. More text than war and peace there. Yowsa
No joke!
how can I get your help sheets?
Hello D.j. and everyone, and good evening. Rodger here, and I hope that everyone is doing great and ready for a fantastic weekend.
I wanted to say thank you to D.j. for the overview you did on Dungeon Crusade. We're very grateful to you.
I did want to point out a few things...
DISPLAY THE FULL GAME AND ITS CONTENTS:
I wished you would have shown the game in all of its glory and what it's comprised of.
What I mean is, I realize you have limited space, but as a reviewer and for people tuning in, it would have been good to arrange your area to at least show everything that Dungeon Crusade is comprised of, even for 5 to 10 minutes. Then cut to the video of the custom content you created.
I've never seen a review or reviewer that did a review, created their own content for the game to show, and didn't show what this custom-designed content was based on.
It would have been nice to show and discuss with viewers:
What the Village board looks like.
What the Dungeon U.I. board looks like.
The dungeon fully setup with the chamber doors.
Show the chamber doors with colored plastic bases and the key system that goes along with it. (Jade key, Onyx key, Golden key, and the Ivory key)
I'm sure people would have enjoyed seeing all this game content first, then what you had created. If you did another video, it would be great to show off this content and the dungeon fully set up for people to check out.
For anyone reading this, feel free to head over to the Groovus Games Unlimited TH-cam channel and check out the spotlight video series on Dungeon Crusade. The first video in this series is the introduction to Dungeon Crusade, and I think you'll enjoy it. :)
Spotlight video series th-cam.com/play/PLHuoGWtNACPMiKAl5FFj4O5ojWML3mAG4.html
EDIT: I forgot to mention this when I posted this.
Stay tuned for the new video series we are working on for the Groovus Games Unlimited TH-cam channel, where I will be teaching people how to set up and play both the Avalon Adventure board game and Dungeon Crusade. I think people are really going to enjoy these videos in particular and will get them acclimated to both games quite quickly.
This new series will be very straight to the point, focused, and not too chatty, other than teaching people about the games.
HOW THE CRUSADERS' HANDBOOK WAS CREATED:
I had mentioned this before and would like to share this again. When you discussed the length of the rulebook, it would have been good if you had mentioned the 6 different sections of the Crusaders' Handbook.
Dungeon Crusade is a fairly creative and innovative game, so it called for an equally creative and innovative rulebook.
I have mentioned this in the past, and, in a few messages to people, I took the time needed to write/craft/structure a very comprehensive rulebook for Dungeon Crusade. In the creation of it, I also created it in such a way that it was a good read and quite thematic.
I had mentioned I didn't just write the Dungeon Crusade rulebook, but I had to write/structure 6 different rulebooks. For...
- Dungeon Crusade (the game itself)
- The Avalon Adventure board game
- The House of Chance games which are:
- Tower Attack!
- Skull Jack
- The Adventures of Bravely the Knight
- Heroes vs. Monsters
So this is genuinely one rulebook to rule them all.
IMPORTANT!: But when you start out reading it, all that you need to know is the main rules for Dungeon Crusade. That's it.
Then, as you get more acclimated to the game, you can learn more about the game in the other sections of the rulebook and incorporate it into your game sessions.
The Crusaders' Handbook was never meant to be read in one sitting. Some people are under that misconception. Take it slowly-one section at a time.
Again, thank you, D.j. for taking the time to do an overview of Dungeon Crusade. I hope that you and everyone reading this has an excellent weekend. Talk to you soon...Rodger :)
Right on! Thanks for making such a great game. I’m sure people will like it a great deal.
Agree on the rulebook, it was the hardest rulebook to get into I have ever seen. This put me off backing the game, which is a shame as this looks good!
It doesn’t seem like the designer has taken this on board, as there seems to be no concession on the shortcomings of the book, only a defence of how the book was put together. Hopefully a new rulebook a third of the size will be released for the next edition, fingers crossed!
@@jamesmit7914
I agree.
The crucial point is, we all want to play and experience the actual game when it arrives at home and not being hindered by spending hours and hours with reading of a rulebook. And the statement that it should be read in sessions makes the problem absolutely apparent.
Yeah. For real. This isn’t ASL. We should be able to learn this game in an hour. It’s on the same level as DungeonQuest and WHQ. These are easy games to learn.
BTW Rodger, I showed all of the components in SUPER great detail in my component deep dive parts of the Dungeon Crusade playlist. That's how I do a lot of my reviews here on the dungeon dive - different videos for different parts of the game. My viewers really like that.
th-cam.com/video/hwX4Jil8AFY/w-d-xo.html
When you say zero to hero, do you mean characters go from level 1 to level 3 (that's the highest right?) in a single session? If that's true, then this game goes way up in my want list. I loved Descent 1e for doing this because not everyone has the time to invest in a sprawling campaign. I prefer the all day one-off sessions as opposed to committing to multiple, if not a dozen sessions.
Single session? Maybe. A game of this can last 12+ hours. Zero to hero basically means NOT a campaign.
@@TheDungeonDive thanks! Let’s call it a weekend/week-long adventure then 😉. I’m just happy to see a non-campaign crawler with this much going on, yet is simple to play. This game is a homebrewer dream.
Yep! I too am tired of super long campaign games.
Have you reviewed the V2 rulebook yet?
Reviewed, no. Rodger and I did recently discuss some of it though. It's good.
@@TheDungeonDive Yes, I found it last night - looks a lot better. Your vid comparing this with DUN and LoD is a very good resource. I will probably go with DUN (awaiting delivery on current print), even though it looks a bit of a handful.
Very late to the party... any idea how to get a copy 😀?
Yes! Hit up Rodger via the Kickstarter page or Facebook.
Dungeon Dive , I am thinking since you have a grasp of what a good manual should be, perhaps you could work on a condensed rule book and post on BGG
Nope. No time. :). My free time for all of my hobbies is already stretched too thin.
@@TheDungeonDive well you can’t blame a guy for trying, lol
If Rodger were to write a precis of the rules, it would be longer than the actual rules.
The easy to learn video rule book series is 14 hours long. Lol! :)
@@TheDungeonDive If you looked up 'brevity' in a dictionary of antonyms there would just be a picture of Rodger.
I'm confident in the conclusion I drew when looking this game up. Once the honeymoon phase is over, this is a game that will sit on the shelf because people won't want to lug it all out and deal with it.
That’s a fear. Especially in re-learning it every few months without a good rules summary / quick learn guide.
re: Rulebook - He could use a Coach on his team. He's stuck. His stuckness is in his head, wanting to get his own story out. He's stuck, imo, in that he wants to connect himself to others rather than let go and present a product to others. A Coach could help him.
I see this has returned to KS. The "Quick Reference Guide" is 20 pages? Yikes...I may still give it a shot. :-)
Hahah. Yeah. That’s pretty funny. Quick reference is longer than most other rule books.
It sadly just does not scratch an itch with me visually. The rainbow coloured board and bright colours even on the cards are just not my kind of taste.
Yeah. Art is totally subjective. This is one my favorite looking games.
Rodger should have included a rulebook guardian monster in the game that roams around and is undefeatable, instead of putting it in the game box and defeating me from playing.
Yeah this is up on Kickstarter again but funding is slow. The project page is so overloaded with info it’s overkill. I’m not even sure if the guy has improved the rulebook to eliminate all the confusion and unnecessary text.
Honestly, the only appeal I have is the dungeon boards and the standees which look awesome and remind me of old school Heroquest. I love that look to the game.
However, I can’t justify the cost of a game that is an uphill struggle and too long. I also have no interest in the Avalon (map) Adventure Game which I found boring when I watched a play through.
Is it all one game or two games? I didn’t read into it enough to find out.
It’s two games.
@@TheDungeonDive so two different games but no separate pledges? As I said, I have zero interest in Avalon Adventure Game but if I wanted Dungeon Crusade, I’m forced into buying that as well.
Definitely a pass.
Cool! Always nice to save some money. :)
Thanks for this video. To me, the rulebook is so terrible. It is so boring to read, so redundant and in some instances so unfocused. I think about selling this game. I cannot imagine that this game is good enough that reading that book is worth it at all. I do not have any problems with complex and long rulebooks in general (S&S, Galaxy Defenders, Perdition's Mouth). But it was exciting to read them. In DC the rulebook is killing me. Seriously, it needs a complete overhaul to shrink it down to 30 pages max (which is possible). But due to your video, I will try it again...maybe...but then the play time is another factor. So many hours for such a simple core gameplay? Oh boy...
The rule book is a real issue for many of us.
It's a simple core gameplay but each turn is always a great moment, between what you think you will do, what the encouter do, your move, and monster move. Without talking about traps, treasure and champions. It's a long game, but each turn is rreally a good moment, and I find it less repetitive than games like D&D boardgame, SoB, as it's not Move, fight, move, fight. As Daniel said, there's always something moving in the dungeon, and not only where your adventurers are. Give it a chance.
@@Boardgamer69 German users rate it 6 to 7 at best, so very mediocre as it seems. In competition to S&S, Machina Arcana or the stellar Lost Tomb, I am really sceptical about playing DC instead for so many hours...
@@DieNische I don't care about rating, and I find it better than Lost Tomb, better than Machina Arcana, or S&S(the one hour combat system game). So It can be rated 2 by people, for me it's a great game. It plays well when you know the rules, the gameplay is fast enough considering you're managing 6 heroes and a living dungeon.
@@Boardgamer69 Interesting. But do you think it is a game that can keep you engaged with over 12 hours?
How much of the game experience is lost if you play the 'short game?' Would characters be able to level up or buy gear as I thought this took place in the village phase between the quest lines. The playtime on the back of the box is listed 90-180 minutes and by all accounts that is not even close to realistic. I think it is fine if the game was designed to be an all-day epic dungeon crawl, but I don't think that was conveyed in Rodger's videos. Because the game looks so simple and inviting, I certainly was not expecting the 8-15 hour playtime that players have described to get the 'full' experience of the game. Even if all of the rulebook issues were not a factor, it's still a demanding game to tackle and it may be too much for a lot of players which is a shame because as you said, there are a lot of really cool aspects to the game. I wish Rodger had ironed out a short version of the game where you could draw a random quest each time you play, still using a similar seeding system but with a total playing time of a couple hours as the default experience, and then listed the full expanded rules as an option for the more hardcore zealous players.
You definitely lose some of the game by not playing a full scenario - leveling up, and buying higher tier gear. You're just going to have to find what works best for you, a short game or a full game. Right now, I'm liking shorter games so I can experience the different dungeon boards.
The rulebook is a mess. The mechanics of the game are simple as you said. But even the simplest aspects are explained in a repetitive manner. You need to read everything as you cannot see where to find the really relevant information. And even worse, the rulebook is hard to use a reference book. It is clear why you made your own reference sheets.
To summarize for me, the time for reading, setup and playing the game does not correlate with fun, excitement and tension I had during my play so far. I am really missing a tension curve like in other crawlers.
After the 1st Quest Level I feel tired and already bored to some extent. Combat and the patrol route system are also not exciting in my impression. I think the best part of the game are the Encounter cards which feel interesting and have a lot of variety.
I absolutely appreciate the work of Roger and can see the passion he had put into this project. But the game should have been condensed. And not only in terms of table presence. DC is a game I can play once per year.
Yeah. It’s a real shame. The simplicity of the game was betrayed by the rule book. I really struggled with it, but I’m glad I stuck with it.
Have suddenly lost any interest to get this to the table any time soon.
I skipped the adventure board game and the other side games and just got the core game.
I skipped the side games as well. The game is long enough with out them. Although I do dig the Avalon game.