Video idea - how to sit properly on the saddle. I struggle to figure out how far back I should be sitting when in an aero position or even "normal" position. I either wind up with saddle sores from sitting too far back or "discomfort" from sitting too far forward, regardless of which saddle I use (Eagle beaks Evolution, Dynamic or F20 , and also SLR,, SQLab 612, Aspide, etc).
I had the exact same issue as you! Went to several bike fits, tried many saddles, none seem to work. Wasted lots of time and money. Finally, I just removed my saddle (and seat post) completely, and never felt more comfortable riding.
I'd suggest experimenting with the tilt of your saddle as much as anything. That angle and even a slight change may shock you, it has me many times over the years.
Neil's seat height video is the best method I've found for finding the right height. Though I have a hard time feeling that flicker at the bottom. I had to look for some other signs and issues. Also, it works better for me on the road. For some reason the trainer masks some symptoms for me.
Your not alone. The trainer masks everything for me. I get fits done on a trainer and all feels fine, on the road is a different story, it all feels wrong.
@@frontierlandfrank5314 indoors is less comfortable. But it still masks things for me that I notice more on the road. When Im reaching to the pedals and hips rock and the bike doesn't hold a stable straight line. Also, when it's high I slide forward on the saddle. Saddle discomfort becomes worse with road buzz. Feels like my sensory perception is better outdoors and I'm more in tune with the bike.
@ saddle discomfort for me is WAY worse indoors. I think there’s less occupying my mind on the trainer. I’ve been playing with saddle positions. Seems like I’m significantly more comfortable and stronger with my saddle forward than it is middle or back.
Love this bike fitter and the way he explains things! Correlates to my experience as well and I have a lot to learn at the same time!!! But....that red bike holder at the background...
I ride all types of bikes, including a Fat bike for snow (I live in Canada) with a massive Q-factor, and it feels just fine. It naturally allows me to use the inside of my leg muscles that connect to my core/gluts all the way down to the inner side of my foot or ball of my foot. When I go back to my road/gravel bike in the spring, it just feels wrong and I start to ride using the outside leg muscles and start rolling my feet also to the outside, thereby loosing the core and gluts. I think we have the Q-factor fundamentally wrong and should be way wider than what we typically see in the industry. Perhaps something we see on mountain bikes. Why are we not matching our hip width to our Q-factor like we match our shoulder width to our bars (not withstanding a persons desire to go super narrow for aerodynamics). Cheers and thanks for all the great info. You are #1 online.
I am the outlier like Neill then. Despite being 185cm tall, I need a narrow q-factor. I used longer axle pedals and tried fat bikes and could not push down on the pedals powerfully because both of my knees tracked in.
@roadcyclingacademy You saved my legs - literally. I experienced a combination of: - saddle too high - low Q factor (bowed legs) - asymmetry (one knee operated on years ago) It is often difficult to relate symptoms such as fatigue to cycling. The consequences were serious, but I am recovering and increasing power above the pre-adjustment power curve.
Signed up for the bike fit fundamentals because I’m unfortunately in the States and could never really visit personally. Will you have input for someone seeking fits for track TT’s?
Just had to get 20mm pedal spindle extenders for each crank arm and go from 175mm cranks to 170mm on new gravel bike based on bike fitter recommendation. Live in SoCal, this channel has given me great advice. Tall person that uses the largest size with needed changes to make it fit with knees tracking in and out during the pedal stroke. First time going down to 170mm cranks after decade plus with 175mm cranks.
Can you say something more about the transfer of position from road to mtb xc, for a leg of 82 cm, saddle height at 72 cm, then mtb set at 73 cm? And closer to the handlebars by 1 cm?
Got my second bike fit after 12k km of riding the same bike. Changed my position between those fits, but had no real pains, but a little pain in the left knee. Turns out, my seat was over 3cm too low and I could lower the front end over 2cm as well as shorten the reach by roughly 1cm. I always thought I would be a micro adjuster, turns out I'm a macro absorber. My body feeling was way off. Rode my first interval session with the new fit, did not really change anything in the rpe department, but with those extreme changes, I probably don't have the right motion control yet.
How do you solve asymmetrical issues? Pads between shoe & cleat on one foot? Trying to fit to the less flexible legs ( increasing Q factors for example)?
I have scoliosis with a significant structural leg length discrepancy and it is very annoying, because I feel like no matter what I do it feels like my seat is too high for one hip/leg, and too low for the other 😭😭
@Alaski yeah, I've always worn a heel lift but I feel like my pelvic alignment is all off from the scoliosis too. I even discovered one of my saddles became torqued/twisted from it so I replaced it. But then I started to wonder whether it just adapted to my body and if I should go back to it lol
so can a bike fit 'fix' assymetry issues or its mostly genectis/technique/etc? Im fairly assymetrical, and i can even tell my bone structure (and consequently muscle development) is assymetrical. Not sure if its even possible to fix that.
I bought Tern Orox and as a fat bike, it has a massive q-factor of over 20cm, noticeable, but it's far easier than my first road bike from 2019. Its 170mm crank arms length is much more of a problem and I use 160 on other bikes.
Video idea - how to sit properly on the saddle. I struggle to figure out how far back I should be sitting when in an aero position or even "normal" position. I either wind up with saddle sores from sitting too far back or "discomfort" from sitting too far forward, regardless of which saddle I use (Eagle beaks Evolution, Dynamic or F20 , and also SLR,, SQLab 612, Aspide, etc).
I had the exact same issue as you! Went to several bike fits, tried many saddles, none seem to work. Wasted lots of time and money. Finally, I just removed my saddle (and seat post) completely, and never felt more comfortable riding.
I'd suggest experimenting with the tilt of your saddle as much as anything. That angle and even a slight change may shock you, it has me many times over the years.
Brilliant, Neill is a wealth of knowledge.
The eagle beak is lurking in the background...🦅
Neil, pls do a world tour over all countries we need your expertise!! :)
Love these thoughtful sit down chats
The Q-Factor part just called out all problems I have on the bike
Neil's seat height video is the best method I've found for finding the right height. Though I have a hard time feeling that flicker at the bottom. I had to look for some other signs and issues. Also, it works better for me on the road. For some reason the trainer masks some symptoms for me.
Your not alone. The trainer masks everything for me. I get fits done on a trainer and all feels fine, on the road is a different story, it all feels wrong.
It provides too much stability and doesn't let your body do the wrong things
That’s wild, riding on the trainer has always been less comfortable for me as compared to riding outside.
@@frontierlandfrank5314 indoors is less comfortable. But it still masks things for me that I notice more on the road. When Im reaching to the pedals and hips rock and the bike doesn't hold a stable straight line. Also, when it's high I slide forward on the saddle. Saddle discomfort becomes worse with road buzz. Feels like my sensory perception is better outdoors and I'm more in tune with the bike.
@ saddle discomfort for me is WAY worse indoors. I think there’s less occupying my mind on the trainer. I’ve been playing with saddle positions. Seems like I’m significantly more comfortable and stronger with my saddle forward than it is middle or back.
Another great educational vid .. cheers Neil 👌👏👏👏
Love this bike fitter and the way he explains things! Correlates to my experience as well and I have a lot to learn at the same time!!!
But....that red bike holder at the background...
We have "I'm tough and I mean serious bike-fit businesses" short haired Neill in this!
I ride all types of bikes, including a Fat bike for snow (I live in Canada) with a massive Q-factor, and it feels just fine. It naturally allows me to use the inside of my leg muscles that connect to my core/gluts all the way down to the inner side of my foot or ball of my foot. When I go back to my road/gravel bike in the spring, it just feels wrong and I start to ride using the outside leg muscles and start rolling my feet also to the outside, thereby loosing the core and gluts. I think we have the Q-factor fundamentally wrong and should be way wider than what we typically see in the industry. Perhaps something we see on mountain bikes. Why are we not matching our hip width to our Q-factor like we match our shoulder width to our bars (not withstanding a persons desire to go super narrow for aerodynamics). Cheers and thanks for all the great info. You are #1 online.
Back when we had 3by cranksets everything was fine ;)
I am the outlier like Neill then. Despite being 185cm tall, I need a narrow q-factor. I used longer axle pedals and tried fat bikes and could not push down on the pedals powerfully because both of my knees tracked in.
@roadcyclingacademy
You saved my legs - literally.
I experienced a combination of:
- saddle too high
- low Q factor (bowed legs)
- asymmetry (one knee operated on years ago)
It is often difficult to relate symptoms such as fatigue to cycling.
The consequences were serious, but I am recovering and increasing power above the pre-adjustment power curve.
Generous sharing😊
Hey Neil. Do you ever prescribe actual physiotherapy for discomfort issues?
Signed up for the bike fit fundamentals because I’m unfortunately in the States and could never really visit personally. Will you have input for someone seeking fits for track TT’s?
I always feel the burn in my quads, specifically the medial head. I never feel like i can get good glute/hamstring activation
Neil with shorter haircut looks tougher :).
Thought it was Chopper at first.
Mark Zuckerberg wants his hair style back…😂
Just had to get 20mm pedal spindle extenders for each crank arm and go from 175mm cranks to 170mm on new gravel bike based on bike fitter recommendation. Live in SoCal, this channel has given me great advice. Tall person that uses the largest size with needed changes to make it fit with knees tracking in and out during the pedal stroke. First time going down to 170mm cranks after decade plus with 175mm cranks.
Can you say something more about the transfer of position from road to mtb xc, for a leg of 82 cm, saddle height at 72 cm, then mtb set at 73 cm? And closer to the handlebars by 1 cm?
Got my second bike fit after 12k km of riding the same bike. Changed my position between those fits, but had no real pains, but a little pain in the left knee. Turns out, my seat was over 3cm too low and I could lower the front end over 2cm as well as shorten the reach by roughly 1cm. I always thought I would be a micro adjuster, turns out I'm a macro absorber. My body feeling was way off. Rode my first interval session with the new fit, did not really change anything in the rpe department, but with those extreme changes, I probably don't have the right motion control yet.
How do you solve asymmetrical issues? Pads between shoe & cleat on one foot? Trying to fit to the less flexible legs ( increasing Q factors for example)?
Explains why pain killers are guzzled so much in pro and olympic sport.
nice haircut Coach
I have scoliosis with a significant structural leg length discrepancy and it is very annoying, because I feel like no matter what I do it feels like my seat is too high for one hip/leg, and too low for the other 😭😭
Shim in your short leg shoe.
@Alaski yeah, I've always worn a heel lift but I feel like my pelvic alignment is all off from the scoliosis too. I even discovered one of my saddles became torqued/twisted from it so I replaced it. But then I started to wonder whether it just adapted to my body and if I should go back to it lol
When you go to wider q factor, do you move the saddle down at all?
What about having a suboptimal saddle fore/aft position?
The roda is never flat, so you are technically always moving forward and backwards on the seat by a few mm.
10% more power by moving my feet apart. EPO is irrelevant
Only if Armstrong knew at the time. They also have presented some 3d printed shoes that gives you 5% power increase. 15% and no PEDs
so can a bike fit 'fix' assymetry issues or its mostly genectis/technique/etc?
Im fairly assymetrical, and i can even tell my bone structure (and consequently muscle development) is assymetrical. Not sure if its even possible to fix that.
👍👍👍
I bought Tern Orox and as a fat bike, it has a massive q-factor of over 20cm, noticeable, but it's far easier than my first road bike from 2019. Its 170mm crank arms length is much more of a problem and I use 160 on other bikes.
strewth
Number five - running spacers under your stem.