Went from 170 to 165 cranks, saddle up 5mm shortened stem from 110 to 100, sooo much more comfortable and able to hold power output longer in the drops with a much smoother pedal stroke.
Ive been stucked in this pedaling rabbit hole for quite sometime, always trying to “perfect” my technique but it always leads to discomfort and sometimes even pain. It all went away when I just don’t think about my foot, just pedal and let my foot do whatever it wants, instead just focus on firing my muscles especially the quads. I think being efficient is allowing your body to do what it wants to do under stress. Now I rarely give a damn if my knee tracking / ankling sucks as long as I’m putting out the watts.
Great video, as usual 👍. Quick follow up for Neil if he sees this: does the same apply to ankling? It seems some people pedal with more heel drop some with more toe down, if the bike fit is good and the rider is comfortable should the ankle be let alone or should one aim for a neutral position where there is no toe pointing or heel drop?
Such an informative channel, thank you. Quick question, I'm experiencing some asymmetric saddle soreness on my right side coupled with left anterior knee pain. Are there any videos on your channel that discuss these symptoms and/or what the potential solutions may be? Thanks!
That is so reassuring to my ears Sir👍🏻 For years I thought I was only half the rider I should be because I was always told you had to push down and pull up every stroke. Having tried that, it just seemed too much work and had to consciously drum it in but failing every time. The only place I actually do push 'n pull is on a hill, everywhere else I just let it flow naturally and enjoy my training on both my road bike and my fixed wheel training bike. Thank you for this super content👍🏻
First off, get your saddle position optimally set. That aside … Pedaling is spinning a crankset … not like climbing a staircase or a stairmaster machine. The degree to which one spins (pulls through and up in conjunction with pushing down) versus just mashing depends on variables (grade/incline, the riders fitness, the riders current state of exhaustion). The relative degree of pulling through and up vs mashing/pushing/extending may vary throughout a ride. If your saddle height is correct you will be able to shift the degree of exertion from your quads to your hamstrings and visa versa.
This was my experience exactly. After a recent fit checkup, I moved my saddle up and back by approx 20mm each-quite a bit. Yes, I was surprised. Power meter measured results are much better LR balance and torque efficiency at lower powers: my legs aren’t fighting each other so much anymore. I am not consciously pedaling any differently, though. FTP went up about 5% after being stuck in a plateau for a very long time.
For anyone who thinks they pull up or pedal in circles try this.... use an easy gear on a flat road and unclip one foot. Now try to pedal at 90 rpm with only the clipped in foot. I certainly can't but I've had people tell me I have a nice smooth pedal stroke.
Good luck maintaining a truly smooth pedal stroke at high effort-when the glutes and quads dominate power production, with rotation momentum only creating the illusion of smoothness.
Great video! I've been always wondering about this "pull up on the pedal" thing. In my mind it makes no sense. Maybe you could explore this further in a different video, because this seems to be one of the biggest myths in cycling. My theory is that pedals are essentially levers and when you push down you are using that leverage. Now when you try to pull up on the opposite side you are essentially robbing your front pedal/crank arm of that leverage. And the push down is far more effective that pull-up in making power. So it's a tradeoff, and an unfair one. Also, hot take, but - if pulling up doesn't matter - why is there a big deal about being clipped in? I mean what if you use flat pedals, good ones, with traction, and keep your feet on the same position....then why does it matter to be clipped in or not in the context of making more power, and assuming pulling up is BS. It always seems that everyone is making the argument that using clipless allows you to somehow produce more power and it just doesn't make sense much for me. Maybe a little negligible amount due to stiffer shoes...but that can't be more than a couple % at most.
Clipless increases peak power output, but does not increase average power output. It basically just lets you blow your load faster which is really only useful in a sprint. Studies have shown this over and over again. I train with both flat and clipless pedals. It's quite obvious that it's not easier to sustain a slightly higher power output over even short durations with clipless pedals. The real benefits from clipless are that they keep your foot in place, and it's nice not to have to worry about that when you are going all out. It's also somewhat easier to make a lighter and sleeker shoe/pedal combination when you have an interface that doesn't rely on rubber and metal pins. A stiffer shoe also doesn't increase your power output. I read one study where they tested shoes where one had nylon soles and the other two had carbon. The nylon shoe actually produced the highest peak power during an all out sprint where you'd think stiffness would matter the most. It wasn't significantly higher but it was still higher. Clipless pedals have stiff soles because the pedal isn't very big. Not for efficiency. If they were flimsy you would get hotspots on your foot from pushing down on a small pedal platform. The stiffer the material, the less we need to stop hotspots. Carbon is very stiff, so it's a good option as it allows you to make soles thin which decreases weight and lowers stack height.
@@iknowzeverything2740 on point. yep, from everything I read and saw the conclusion is that it matters most in sprints and hill climbing. I'm more of an endurance rider and triathlete, so for me the average over time is what matters, I don't care about sprinting. And I found that flats are just fine for what I need. For now at least.
Sorry Niel, my experience is that pulling up is worth it. I reduced an 8 minute loop into a 6 minute loop just by pulling up. Maybe I was just lifting the weight of the trailing foot (as you do walking) so that it is not trying to pedal backwards or maybe it was more but 2 minutes!
I like that you differentiated between pulling up and lightly pulling back/scaping. I have to imagine that spreading the load over multiple muscle groups saves you in the long run. Whether that helps you over longer efforts or more weekly hours, a gain is still a gain. The research could also imply that switching to a smoother pedal stroke caused no gains because those riders were underdeveloped in those muscle groups and motor pattern. Over a longer case study we might begin to see something different
"I have to imagine that spreading the load over multiple muscle groups saves you in the long run." Easy to imagine, but it's incorrect. For example, you can spread the load to engage the hip flexors on the upstroke and end up worse off. As Neill points out, the added force of the hip flexors comes at a large cost which outweighs the added force they provide. Your 'gain' is not a gain.
@@scotth3354 He said, dont pull up with the hip flexors. I am in agreement. What i very specifically said is, light pull/scrape at the bottom which uses calves and hamstrings
@@joshvillen the point is that spreading the load over multiple muscle groups most likely doesn't save you in the long run, and the hip flexors are just one example of that. There are only so many muscles that get involved in any particular segment of the pedal stroke, and try as you might, you can't engage or spread the load over other muscles beyond those involved in search of a gain. It's your contention that is categorically wrong.
So maybe I video idea. My question is my power meter tells me I have a left right power imbalance. It’s left 44 right 56. I have made a bunch of changes to my fit to make the bike allot more comfortable. I feel like I’m really really close to optimal fit. So should I care about a pedal power imbalance?
You have a physiology problem most likely and have an imbalance in strength, mobility, or stability. You need a different context of exercise to rewire that leg and then your fit will help.
+ 1 here for a video on power imbalance. Was training for 2 years on an assioma uno and after upgrading to a duo, found I do also have 54/46 right left power. T least I won watts from the upgrade. Had it been the left one my stronger leg, I would have país paid to lose 18 watts 😅😅
I didn't measure or take any data, talkless of watts, but I switched to the smaller chainring and got used to it for a week, despite from the mechanical viewpoint it's not optimal to use the small chainring with the small rear sprockets, but this adjustment will diminish your downstroke efficiency and you have to adapt to a smoother more circular pedaling. After getting used to it and then switching to the greater chainring again I felt much faster and much more efficient not relying on the downstroke that much.
There's a great, albeit rather technical, book called The mid-life cyclist. It goes into great detail about why trying to pull up, scrape mud off your sole, etc. While pedalling is all bollocks.
There isn’t a whole lot of critical thinking in cycling. The advice you hear about using flexor muscles to pull up or back is kinda like fitting by Knee Over Pedal Spindle - untested (and wrong) but repeated so many times that “everybody believes you should pedal in a circle”. I built a test rig for this, it’s an adjustable bike that lifts a stack of weights instead of turning a wheel - there’s very little inertia in the system. What it’s shown clearly is that humans can’t “pedal in circles”. The reason I think this bad information is so common is the feedback system of the human body. Effort for large muscles seems similar to effort of small muscles. This is why people “know” they are pulling up. In actual testing they can’t. The bottom line is that you have two large muscle groups that fight gravity - glutes and quads. What I don’t get is why people haven’t looked at vector power output and figured out their timing on using those muscles sucks. The scans show the longest vectors pointing straight down at or near the bottom where it is totally ineffective. This is someone who has learned how to walk, and is using the same skill set and timing to pedal. Sadly, on a bike there are no failure states to correct this. You learned how to walk because you fell on your ass ore than a few times. In cycling, the pedal goes around if your efficiency > 0.
If you pull up a lot, then you can injured the popliteus muscle. My VMO was weak, and i pulling up a lot, the result is a popliteus tendinitis... I speak from my own experience.
Yup, nothing new. A Pubmed study years and years ago determined that pulling up is inefficient. A rider cannot be effective on both up & down stroke. It's simple biology & biomechanics. Down stroke produces most power and efficiency. But so many feeble riders act on their perceptions rather than physics and biology. 🤦♂️🤷♂️
What if it's an age thing? My guess is that many other sports are started really early on in life, making the learning curve not feel as difficult. If the average Joe would start cycling at 4 years-old, instead of at 20+, I guess figuring it all out happens in a much more playful manner.
A lot of the research Neill is referencing is shared in this article: blog.2peak.com/en/improve-your-pedalling-technique/
I could listen to Neill talk about bikes and riding for hours. He makes everything so easy to understand, and is a true wealth of knowledge.
Went from 170 to 165 cranks, saddle up 5mm shortened stem from 110 to 100, sooo much more comfortable and able to hold power output longer in the drops with a much smoother pedal stroke.
Shorter cranks better for knees right?
@@R0b3ertif shorter cranks are a better fit for you personally then yes.
I swear, one of these days in going to make it down to you guys and see Neill for a fit. His bike-physio nerdiness is contagious.
Ive been stucked in this pedaling rabbit hole for quite sometime, always trying to “perfect” my technique but it always leads to discomfort and sometimes even pain. It all went away when I just don’t think about my foot, just pedal and let my foot do whatever it wants, instead just focus on firing my muscles especially the quads. I think being efficient is allowing your body to do what it wants to do under stress. Now I rarely give a damn if my knee tracking / ankling sucks as long as I’m putting out the watts.
Yes, don't over think it. Just pedal.
Simple, logical, eloquent….. Genius.
Great video fellas. Very good explanation Neill.
Great video, as usual 👍. Quick follow up for Neil if he sees this: does the same apply to ankling? It seems some people pedal with more heel drop some with more toe down, if the bike fit is good and the rider is comfortable should the ankle be let alone or should one aim for a neutral position where there is no toe pointing or heel drop?
Such an informative channel, thank you. Quick question, I'm experiencing some asymmetric saddle soreness on my right side coupled with left anterior knee pain. Are there any videos on your channel that discuss these symptoms and/or what the potential solutions may be? Thanks!
That is so reassuring to my ears Sir👍🏻 For years I thought I was only half the rider I should be because I was always told you had to push down and pull up every stroke. Having tried that, it just seemed too much work and had to consciously drum it in but failing every time. The only place I actually do push 'n pull is on a hill, everywhere else I just let it flow naturally and enjoy my training on both my road bike and my fixed wheel training bike. Thank you for this super content👍🏻
First off, get your saddle position optimally set.
That aside … Pedaling is spinning a crankset … not like climbing a staircase or a stairmaster machine.
The degree to which one spins (pulls through and up in conjunction with pushing down) versus just mashing depends on variables (grade/incline, the riders fitness, the riders current state of exhaustion).
The relative degree of pulling through and up vs mashing/pushing/extending may vary throughout a ride. If your saddle height is correct you will be able to shift the degree of exertion from your quads to your hamstrings and visa versa.
A reminder to just ride
This was my experience exactly. After a recent fit checkup, I moved my saddle up and back by approx 20mm each-quite a bit. Yes, I was surprised. Power meter measured results are much better LR balance and torque efficiency at lower powers: my legs aren’t fighting each other so much anymore. I am not consciously pedaling any differently, though. FTP went up about 5% after being stuck in a plateau for a very long time.
For anyone who thinks they pull up or pedal in circles try this.... use an easy gear on a flat road and unclip one foot. Now try to pedal at 90 rpm with only the clipped in foot. I certainly can't but I've had people tell me I have a nice smooth pedal stroke.
Good luck maintaining a truly smooth pedal stroke at high effort-when the glutes and quads dominate power production, with rotation momentum only creating the illusion of smoothness.
It requires more of a flatter foot through out the stroke, dont drop the heel at 3oclock, because that will put higher peak at 3oclock
Great video! I've been always wondering about this "pull up on the pedal" thing. In my mind it makes no sense. Maybe you could explore this further in a different video, because this seems to be one of the biggest myths in cycling. My theory is that pedals are essentially levers and when you push down you are using that leverage. Now when you try to pull up on the opposite side you are essentially robbing your front pedal/crank arm of that leverage. And the push down is far more effective that pull-up in making power. So it's a tradeoff, and an unfair one. Also, hot take, but - if pulling up doesn't matter - why is there a big deal about being clipped in? I mean what if you use flat pedals, good ones, with traction, and keep your feet on the same position....then why does it matter to be clipped in or not in the context of making more power, and assuming pulling up is BS. It always seems that everyone is making the argument that using clipless allows you to somehow produce more power and it just doesn't make sense much for me. Maybe a little negligible amount due to stiffer shoes...but that can't be more than a couple % at most.
Clipless increases peak power output, but does not increase average power output. It basically just lets you blow your load faster which is really only useful in a sprint. Studies have shown this over and over again. I train with both flat and clipless pedals. It's quite obvious that it's not easier to sustain a slightly higher power output over even short durations with clipless pedals. The real benefits from clipless are that they keep your foot in place, and it's nice not to have to worry about that when you are going all out. It's also somewhat easier to make a lighter and sleeker shoe/pedal combination when you have an interface that doesn't rely on rubber and metal pins.
A stiffer shoe also doesn't increase your power output. I read one study where they tested shoes where one had nylon soles and the other two had carbon. The nylon shoe actually produced the highest peak power during an all out sprint where you'd think stiffness would matter the most. It wasn't significantly higher but it was still higher. Clipless pedals have stiff soles because the pedal isn't very big. Not for efficiency. If they were flimsy you would get hotspots on your foot from pushing down on a small pedal platform. The stiffer the material, the less we need to stop hotspots. Carbon is very stiff, so it's a good option as it allows you to make soles thin which decreases weight and lowers stack height.
@@iknowzeverything2740 on point. yep, from everything I read and saw the conclusion is that it matters most in sprints and hill climbing. I'm more of an endurance rider and triathlete, so for me the average over time is what matters, I don't care about sprinting. And I found that flats are just fine for what I need. For now at least.
I just bought my first road bike after 15K miles on a gravel bike. Looking forward to learning from this channel a lot 👍
Sorry Niel, my experience is that pulling up is worth it. I reduced an 8 minute loop into a 6 minute loop just by pulling up. Maybe I was just lifting the weight of the trailing foot (as you do walking) so that it is not trying to pedal backwards or maybe it was more but 2 minutes!
I like that you differentiated between pulling up and lightly pulling back/scaping. I have to imagine that spreading the load over multiple muscle groups saves you in the long run. Whether that helps you over longer efforts or more weekly hours, a gain is still a gain. The research could also imply that switching to a smoother pedal stroke caused no gains because those riders were underdeveloped in those muscle groups and motor pattern. Over a longer case study we might begin to see something different
"I have to imagine that spreading the load over multiple muscle groups saves you in the long run." Easy to imagine, but it's incorrect. For example, you can spread the load to engage the hip flexors on the upstroke and end up worse off. As Neill points out, the added force of the hip flexors comes at a large cost which outweighs the added force they provide. Your 'gain' is not a gain.
@@scotth3354 He said, dont pull up with the hip flexors. I am in agreement. What i very specifically said is, light pull/scrape at the bottom which uses calves and hamstrings
@@joshvillen the point is that spreading the load over multiple muscle groups most likely doesn't save you in the long run, and the hip flexors are just one example of that. There are only so many muscles that get involved in any particular segment of the pedal stroke, and try as you might, you can't engage or spread the load over other muscles beyond those involved in search of a gain. It's your contention that is categorically wrong.
So maybe I video idea. My question is my power meter tells me I have a left right power imbalance. It’s left 44 right 56. I have made a bunch of changes to my fit to make the bike allot more comfortable. I feel like I’m really really close to optimal fit. So should I care about a pedal power imbalance?
Good one, we can add it to the next round of videos.
Maybe you having a shimano powermeter is the problem?
@ Nope not a shimano power meter.
You have a physiology problem most likely and have an imbalance in strength, mobility, or stability. You need a different context of exercise to rewire that leg and then your fit will help.
+ 1 here for a video on power imbalance. Was training for 2 years on an assioma uno and after upgrading to a duo, found I do also have 54/46 right left power. T least I won watts from the upgrade. Had it been the left one my stronger leg, I would have país paid to lose 18 watts 😅😅
I didn't measure or take any data, talkless of watts, but I switched to the smaller chainring and got used to it for a week, despite from the mechanical viewpoint it's not optimal to use the small chainring with the small rear sprockets, but this adjustment will diminish your downstroke efficiency and you have to adapt to a smoother more circular pedaling. After getting used to it and then switching to the greater chainring again I felt much faster and much more efficient not relying on the downstroke that much.
Power doesn't directly increase, but I would predict that fatigue over long periods would reduce, allowing for more power over a long time.
Do you make house calls ? I'm in Nova Scotia, Canada 😅😅
“Pelvic Rock” is a probably NSFW dance style 🤪
There's a great, albeit rather technical, book called The mid-life cyclist. It goes into great detail about why trying to pull up, scrape mud off your sole, etc. While pedalling is all bollocks.
💪So i´ll get 30% more power. I´ll take that 😂❤
There isn’t a whole lot of critical thinking in cycling. The advice you hear about using flexor muscles to pull up or back is kinda like fitting by Knee Over Pedal Spindle - untested (and wrong) but repeated so many times that “everybody believes you should pedal in a circle”. I built a test rig for this, it’s an adjustable bike that lifts a stack of weights instead of turning a wheel - there’s very little inertia in the system. What it’s shown clearly is that humans can’t “pedal in circles”. The reason I think this bad information is so common is the feedback system of the human body. Effort for large muscles seems similar to effort of small muscles. This is why people “know” they are pulling up. In actual testing they can’t.
The bottom line is that you have two large muscle groups that fight gravity - glutes and quads. What I don’t get is why people haven’t looked at vector power output and figured out their timing on using those muscles sucks. The scans show the longest vectors pointing straight down at or near the bottom where it is totally ineffective. This is someone who has learned how to walk, and is using the same skill set and timing to pedal. Sadly, on a bike there are no failure states to correct this. You learned how to walk because you fell on your ass ore than a few times. In cycling, the pedal goes around if your efficiency > 0.
buzzcut looks good
If you pull up a lot, then you can injured the popliteus muscle. My VMO was weak, and i pulling up a lot, the result is a popliteus tendinitis... I speak from my own experience.
Yup, nothing new. A Pubmed study years and years ago determined that pulling up is inefficient. A rider cannot be effective on both up & down stroke. It's simple biology & biomechanics. Down stroke produces most power and efficiency. But so many feeble riders act on their perceptions rather than physics and biology. 🤦♂️🤷♂️
引き上げても力は出ませんが，相反したペダルに力を抜くことにより均等のトルク，股関節筋群の伸展トルクが増え，膝関節の伸展筋の脱力および屈曲モーメントを出すために180付近でのハムストリングで引き上げることは普通の走行技術です．
That's too much for me 😮. My understanding didn't reach the level for this video. Coming back in couple of years.
👍
Pulling up is a myth.
no wonder cycling not popular, Way to many thing s to figure out for the joe average, too bad!!
What if it's an age thing? My guess is that many other sports are started really early on in life, making the learning curve not feel as difficult. If the average Joe would start cycling at 4 years-old, instead of at 20+, I guess figuring it all out happens in a much more playful manner.
@@sjoerdvisser76 you tube bike fitter!! consult with bike industries to stop improper specs of bike and such!!