14:20 Here's another comparison. Don't treat an orange like an apple. you have to peel the skin and separate the parts to get the most of it. And apple is simple, bite into it, done. Oranges aren't. Apples and oranges. Mario is the apple, sonic is the orange.
You know, your talk of Sega games are about mastery and learning the game over time gave me an idea on how I look at a favorite of mine: Sonic Adventure 2 Battle. You see, I believe half the reason I like that game so very much, contrary to the popular opinion, is that I'm so good at it. I can easily get an A Rank in almost every level of that game, including the Treasure Hunting levels and Mech Shooting levels. And I got that way through a lot of time and dedication given to that game. So now I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe the game was designed to be skewed more towards the Sega Arcade mentality. All the faults you pointed out in Sonic Spinball Part 2-More linear Sonic/Shadow levels, the game limiting you to detecting 1 emerald at a time, the slightly clunky mech movements-can also, like NiGHTS, be turned into positives. The linear Sonic levels give the player a more clear sense of what they need to do and how to do the perfect A Rank run so the complications of 3D space can be ignored for what's in front of you and what you have to do. And therefore, when you're doing that perfect A Rank run, it looks and feels more spectacular in that linear environment because the level is more concentrated and stuff is constantly happening. Detecting 1 emerald piece puts a huge emphasis on clearing the level as fast as you can, knowing where the emerald will be with as few hints as possible, and knowing how to get it. You need all the time you can get in the stages, because you can only get a handle on one piece. There's a real sense of urgency and knowing just what you're doing that wasn't there in Adventure 1's treasure hunting stages. Dare I say, in Adventure 1's treasure hunting stages, there was a real laxs-a-daisy attitude to collecting the emeralds that allowed you to phone it in a bit. This time, at least, you get some adrenaline. And you have to be fast. In a Sonic game, huh. The clunky mech controls are clunky because what really matters as far as the game is concenred is aiming your gun, which is mostly done with tilts on the analog stick that don't affect the position of your mech. Locking on huge multiples of targets and letting loose the lasers are a big factor in your score and your A Rank, so the controls giving more priority to your range makes sense, even at the loss of more control. Turning around isn't smooth because the game wants you facing forward 90% of the time for better aiming and more point bonuses and designs the levels to accomodate facing forward the majority of the time. Now, this is just a hypothesis. And even if there was a kernel of truth there, NiGHTS is still a sh*t ton more approachable in learning and mastering it's rules. Sonic Adventure 2 leans towards mastery, but in doing so, perhaps it sacrifices smooth gameplay. And it's nowhere near as fun to master even after you make that leap. I remember many grueling hours put into Death Chamber just trying to familiarize myself with it so an A Rank would come. And don't even get me started on Missions 3 and 4 of the Kart levels. And *especially* don't get me started on A Ranking those missions. And while I do enjoy seeing that big point bonus after locking down and shooting 11 targets... that's really the only part of the Mech Hunting levels I like. I think the game is trying to make the destruction that results from my skill and the general destruction feel awesome and spectacular, but quite honestly, a PS1 game simply called ONE beat explosion shooty porn to the punch and did it a sh*t ton better 4 years before SA2. On weaker hardware. Not to mention they probably could have had the same skill net with locking on into double digits with Gamma's smoother control from SA1. In fact, this game may have ultimately, purposely make it play worse to make mastering it a harder goal. Which I've heard is a big no-no. Still, it's a more positive (and fresh) perspective on SA2 that I think is interesting and worth thinking about. Cheers, Rarefoil
This basically nailed my opinion on SA2 (especially your point on the Treasure Hunting Stages). It's a fun game with great ideas marred by poor conveyance and execution. Levels like Death Chamber are too expansive for their own good.
I think you're spot on, and that's exactly how I feel about SA2. While I will never again attempt to get all emblems, I can comfortably play almost any level in the game. MAD SPACE STILL FUCKING SUCKS)
You're going to absolutely have to forgive me for taking so long on getting around to watching this episode, i had wanted to save it so that when i had time i could watch this all in one go ...and i only just now found the time XD So apologies for the hold up. This video highlights something that quite a LOT of people actually do go through with NiGHTS, you've done a brilliant job of explaining it. Newcomers to the game tend to slate it on their first try merely because they haven't got a clue what's going on or what they're supposed to be doing and on that note they write it off. NiGHTS becomes good when the coin drops and you suddenly realise what the game is actually asking you to do. Most games with a timer put the timer there to force you to finish what you're doing as quickly as possible but NiGHTS was different, NiGHTS wants you to chase every available second that it gives you and asks you how much can get done within that time. When i first figured this out it was honestly a mind-blowing moment and it changed my entire perspective. Truth be told, me all of people you'd probably expect to say i was a fan from day one but i was in the same boat that everybody else was. I really disliked NiGHTS when i first played it. I just wanted to put Daytona USA back on and drive my little race car around the track. But i was talked in to giving NiGHTS another try and i'm so grateful i did because it became such a unique and fun game within my collection and ...seriously mate ...can you imagine me of all people NOT being a NiGHTS fan? XD But i'm glad you remained honest about how this game didn't do it for you when you started it because you just highlighted a problem that everybody goes through when they first play this. The trick is to give NiGHTS a second try with a better understanding. Anyways, nice work is all i wanted to say and here i am writing paragraphs, lol.
+DiGi Valentine I'll be honest, man, that's a wee bit of a relief. I wondered if you had seen it and thought "HE'S TALKING BOLLOCKS" but were just too polite to say! Yeah, I think it's something that a lot of Sega games suffer from, like I say. I do think this video's just a wee bit slap-dash and generalised (it had a fairly tight turnaround because I wanted to get SOMETHING done after I cancelled Spitball), but I see so many TH-camrs and stuff play, say, classic Sonic and hate it because they're playing it like Mario. Which isn't totally their fault, but at the same time I wish it didn't have to be that way. Anyway, much thanks man! Glad you enjoyed it! And I'm glad you went back to give NiGHTS that second chance, hahaha!
Lol, nah man. I just like to give videos my undivided attention, that's all. Especially the more in-depth analytical videos such as yours. So have you effectively cancelled Spitball then? Like, entirely? I watched your update video which said you were holding off on doing the next part, has that changed to a complete cancellation now? Just wondering ~
+DiGi Valentine Aw, naw, sorry. Not completely cancelled, just kind of trashed the script that I had at the end of Summer and decided to work on this instead. It's still coming! I just needed to reword it and give it a lot more pop.
This literally perfectly sums out an outsiders perspective of SEGA. It's one that has understandable reactions INITIALLY, but with time you can come to understand the REAL meat behind most of their older games. So e could certainly argue that having to play a game more than once to actually appriciate it is more people fooling themselves into believing they like it, or forcing themselves too, but I think it's quite the opposite. As you said, there is ALWAYS something new to discover almost every time you go through one of these games, I literally just discovered a Special Stage Ring in Sonic & Knuckles I never knew existed a few months ago, and I've played 3&K religiously since The Mega Collection! I got a Saturn for Christmas this year (Much to Segata's Delight :V) and I literally can't stop playing it, especially NiGHTS. Burning Rangers is having a bit of trouble sitting with me right now, again, not EVERYTHING Sega did was perfect, but not everything any company did was perfect. It's really just a shame that the integrity of their past games has to be brought into question like it does, but honestly they had it coming with how much they've been losing the trust of even their most die hard fans. If a fan has trouble respecting Sega, what reason does a newcomer have going into the older games without being overly cautious? Anyway, fantastic video. Sorry to be that guy, but you REALLY deserve more attention than you get man.
It's the type of game I enjoy more, which is why I detest all the TH-cam drama around old games that expected you to play more to master the mechanics and levels. Nothing feels better than having a fun yet clunkier progression on a first run only to pop it back in and annihilate the challenge with familiarity. Many games now focus on constant dopamine-pleasers that don't really mean anything. Checked off a bunch of side quests or objectives on a huge map? OK, but nothing really happened, I just raised a number. I'm not getting better, I'm not overcoming anything, not engaging with any real mechanics. I just press buttons and things happen yet it's unfulfilling.
Any time someone asks if Sega was ever really any good, I look back at the Panzer Dragoon games and Skies of Arcadia and hold back my tears. I would KILL to get a full-fledged series of Sega collections released worldwide. I would absolutely shell out for all 4 PD games, all of the Sakura Wars games, and all of the Shining Force games(including all 3 parts of SF3).
[cynicism] I think part of it is that people just want a punching bag. After all, its been proven that people love seeing folks tear things down, or react to things that are generally considered bad. And in the case of popular let's players, it's rather telling that while they make a huge noise about Sega's bad points, they usually quietly ignore games that are considered good. Taking shots at an easy and visible target is sure to roll in the views, and it doesn't get easier or more visible than a certain blue rodent with a near universally despised fanbase.[/cynicism] This is why I was so pleasantly surprised to see Game Grumps do Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Since it's well made, it's not as easy to take swipes at the company, the fans, and the character, which is what I've seen largely defines playthroughs of poor Sonic games. As well, I'm actually very fond of ProJared's review of Sonic Adventure 2, as his views mirror my own on the game, and he manages to do it without throwing mud anywhere. What bugs me about the Sega hate is not the fact that people don't like poorly made/heavily flawed games, but the mean spirited nature of it. I mean, most of the "Sega was never good" arguments I hear of mainly hinge on the person not liking Sonic The Hedgehog, and ignoring literally everything else they've done, even Altered Beast which actually was very weak. "Why doesn't anyone talk about Nights?", lets add to that "Why doesn't anyone talk about Ristar?"
They don't talk about Ristar or Nights or Virtua Fighter or the numerous other games Sega made because they've never played them. To people like this, any game that does not fit their narrow tastes is "bad" and if you dare to say otherwise then clearly you're a moron. Then these same types will complain that gaming is too dull and I just laugh at them. One of the things I liked about Sega was their willingness to experiment and try doing new things. Companies like WARP were great at that too but with the rise of gaming budgets and the gamer identity it was only a matter of time before that died out in the AAA companies.
Im years late but nail on the head with internet media discourse,especially when a topic reaches a point where it's too well known for getting shat on, any good it genuinely did has to get ignored till a brave enough soul with their own large enough following bites the bullet to be that voice
I think it was the very peak of Sonic Team and the Sonic series, and it was even a peak of all video games in general. It was too good and too obscure / unclear, and too profound. So games have never seemed so unique like this, ever again.
@@cloudair4154 haha it’s so interesting, I feel that if NiGHTS was successful, there’d have been a different evolution of videogames. Instead NiGHTS was an evolutionary dead-end, and games have really streamlined into a few different genres now, including Sonic Team basically settling into cartoon style platformers, oh well
Essentially the main reason I'm not a Mario fan. To me being a Mario fan is like being a fan of the refrigerator. It works as intended and it's awesome for keeping stuff cold, but I'm not going to form any emotional attachment to something that exists for function alone. Unless it's a toaster or an electric blanket or something.
Well, there is a striking difference in terms of how both devs approach designing a game. For Nintendo the emphasis is most definitely placed on polish. The goal is to make a polished and functional game, rather than an experience. The connection is made purely because of the novelty of the game. Nintendo rarely ever double dips, they make a main series game on one console, then jump to the next in a bold attempt to continue sparking interest. Eventually that novelty turns into iconicism, becomes unforgettable to people regardless of whether or not it's "good" by today's standards. Sega, on the other hand, was far less concerned with polish. Arcade games were meant to have an intense amount of detail and build complete personal connections with players, because that's what made people come back. Novelty was not the selling point of an arcade game, because a large majority of them covered a very slim spectrum, which led to Sega's concern with doing things "first". They place time constraints and deadlines on their developers to try and push something into market that will immediately gain attention. People play arcade games not to "win", but to experience them. People do indeed play console games to "win". So when that novelty wears off and people go back to try these games, they're concerned not with getting to know them, but beating them. That lends to people experiencing little niggles and issues that weren't resolved and fixed, due to developers not being given time to really polish the games. Yuji Naka himself admits he wish they had more time when working on all the Sonic titles, because there were so many things he wanted to fix.
Additional to the point you make about having a lot of money and a lot of content vying for our attention, I think the luxury of having a save feature cannot be overstated. In the documentary 'The History Of Sonic: Birth Of An Icon' Yuji Naka states that the basis for Sonic's speed is the fact that people would have to play the early levels of the game over and over because they had to start from the beginning of the game every time they booted it up. Sonic's speed allowed the player to traverse the earlier levels faster and faster as they had become more familiar with the terrain from playing it over and over. Brilliant as this game concept is I think it was made null and void by the introduction of the save feature. The problem Sonic's mechanics adress is no longer a part of the contemporary gaming conscience, and as such I think it is hard for newcomers to enjoy the early 2D Sonic games without being aware of their historic context.
I think the saddest thing is that you will never hear this kind of question or dialog raised about any other company. Nobody has come out of the woodwork to ask whether or not Nintendo was ever any good at all as a result of snafu's like the Virtual Boy, or the (supposed) failings of the Wii U. I can gaurentee you that five years from now, whenever anyone talks about the utterly dismal and dreadful state that Konami is in right now- in many ways making them objectively the single worst game development company currntly operating- I can gaurentee the conversation will ALWAYS start with "back in the day, they were one of the greatest". Sega absolutely have released some real stinkers in their time, and have made more then a few fuck ups; to some extent, the distrust in the brand is deserved. But to suggest that a company that has been operating for an incredibly long time has never made anything good throughout said long and storied existence, and has coasted along on the marketing hype of a spikey blue mammal in fresh creps? It's ridiculous. And though I could and would happily write paragraphs about exactly why I think the rhetoric is, Shay outlined exactly why and put it much more eloquently then I ever could.
+DeconTheed92 I don't think any company is free of criticism. I have a friend who say that as a child he always found Mario boring and preferred Mega Man for example. I think the problem is that Sega fans kind of miss those days when Sega was a real threat to Nintendo, so they try to convince everyone that Sega is relevant by saying how superior it was to Nintendo or how Sonic is superior to Mario. I think this ultimately hurt Sega's reputation because Sega is not like Nintendo and Sonic is not like Mario. Each have different strengths and I think they should be looked at different lights. Sega is not as good at being Nintendo as Nintendo is, but Nintendo could be considered an awful Sega too. See how this debate get us nowhere? xD Now, about Sega's reputation, they're the one that are undermining it. It's not like players started bad-mouthing Sega games for no reason. It is Sega that isn't being careful with the quality of their games and, as a result of that people have started looking more critically at their older games too. I think Shay May hinted at this at his video, but because of the arcade-y nature of Sega games, they didn't age well since we live in a time where the arcade is virtually irrelevant. It's not that Sega games weren't good, they were, but maybe they are not the kind of games that appeal to the general public anymore. It's like Charles Chaplin's Modern Times. It's a critical success and many people say it was one of the most influential movies of the 20th century. But how many people enjoy watching Modern Times today? Very little compared to how many people go to the movies watch Twilight, but does it make Modern Times a lesser movie than Twilight?
+Stephen Weir (sunny) I admit, I can't argue with that. Whether or not you're actually going to enjoy Nintendo's output is subjective, but for the most part they've been more consistent with the objective quality of a large portion of their releases then most companies- including, to swallow my own pride for a second, Sega.
+Captain Davy Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you; in fact, that's kind of the point I was making. No company is free of criticism, and no company can objectively be considered "the best" because everyone wants something different out of their games, and different companies have different strengths that cater to those differing tastes. To me, claiming a company is a perfect bastion of amazingness who can do no wrong and etc. etc. is just as bad as claiming the opposite. I do tend to notice, with that caveat, that it does tend to be the die hard Nintendo fans that commit both the "SEGA WAS NEVER GOOD" AND the "NINTENDO IS PERFECT IF YOU DONT LIKE THEM I DONT LIKE YOU" sins, although its definitely not exclusive to them and it'd be a sweeping and unfair generalisation to say anyone that grew up with a NES is that way inclined.
+Captain Davy (cont.) And again, I agree that Sega has undermined their own failings in an attempt to wash them under the rug. As I said above, the distrust a lot of gamers have towards them right now has been earned, and as much as it pains me to say it really does feel like their standards have slipped terrifically in the last couple of years especially. It's doubly frustrating because we KNOW they can do better, above anything else.
That's because as a gamer, you should respect Nintendo. It literally saved the gaming industry. Even if (and that's a big if) Nintendo was never good, it's not something anyone will say because they wouldn't be a gamer without Nintendo.
I cannot thank you enough for this vid. As a huge Saturn fan, I've always wanted to like Nights, but I also didn't get it. Now, i can't stop playing. I finally like the flagship Saturn game. it's awesome, as are you.
+RetroCak Accumulations This is one of my favourite comments I've gotten so far. Really glad to see I got people to give it another go, and even more glad to hear you're enjoying it. Thanks!
A very thoughtful analysis. IMO, an attract mode tutorial would have gone a long way towards helping players better understand the game's scoring system and mechanics. Kudos to you for sticking with it though!
+Lone Devil Actually, when you play Nintendo games a lot (as I have), you find a lot of the same nuance and depth that you do in SEGA games. For example, Star Fox 64 has this rather obscure mechanic where carefully timed charged shots that don't directly hit enemies but damage them with the shot's splash damage rewards you with extra points. So if you don't lock-on, but instead fire your charged shots into a cloud of enemies at the right range so that the shot detonates among them, you can get extra points per group of enemies than otherwise. Then there's the fact that the charge shot's rate of fire is based on the old arcade shooter mechanic where the number of shots on screen dictate how many of them you can fire over a given period of time. The Arwing's charged shots automatically detonate when they hit terrain features. You can immediately charge and fire charged shots in rapid succession if you aim at objects closer to you than the charged shot's normal maximum range, and because the terrain doesn't count as an enemy, but the splash damage can harm nearby foes, you can "ricochet" charged shots for extra points. Like Sonic and Mario, Star Fox 64 is very easy to pick up, but extremely difficult to master, and if you want awesome high scores, mechanics like these make that possible.
i think Sega applied this same style-supplementing-substance approach to Daytona USA as well -- it has only 3 tracks, basically no car selection (outside of manual and automatic transmission) and might be passed off as just a stock car racing game. But damn, the drifting mechanic made it have so much more depth, giving 3 tracks far more entertainment to me than most titles with a double-digit number of tracks and cars to choose from.
Gunstar heroes was only Published by SEGA and developed by Treasure, but I see your point. Its how I feel about Chu Chu rocket, Jet set radio & Crazy Taxi. Frustrating to just pick up & play but I tend to want to go back to them more often. Also, did you ever try out the Wii Nights game?
+Ashuten Treasure's pretty good at this kind of arcadey fun Alien Soldier, Ikaruga, Sin and Punishment Star Successor... it's their genre of expertise.
Interesting view... it kind of ties into the whole "zen state" that I so enjoyed back when I was first completing SA2, as that "style being the reward for skill" was probably a big contributing factor, at least back when said skills were still significant for me (I've since moved onto things like Super Meat Boy for my difficulty threshold, which is in a very different ballpark). The thing is though, if I wasn't being challenged by the game itself to master it that way, I'd likely have never become that interested in it. That's probably why I don't consider Heroes and Shadow to be bad or even "okay" games, because even though they were definitely missing the exploration aspects of the Genesis titles, they still gave a legitimate challenge. Heck, the fact that I view Unleashed as my favorite despite having been a Sonic fan since Heroes (pre-PS2 me couldn't comprehend what was good about Sonic, though that's long been rectified as my username should attest) fits into that well, because it managed to maximize both the exploration AND the challenge more than any other entry prior or since! It was every good part of the Sonic gameplay I had grown to love all rolled up into one concise package! Probably helped that I thought the Werehog levels were interesting as well, though I can easily see how those would get boring more quickly.
I really love the Saturn version best, I noticed that the HD Splash Garden is missing the water animating on the beach areas. Original graphics really look best. ❤
@@shoogles_ Good luck! I bought my stuff before the modern higher prices of retro stuff. But I lost my 3D pad in moving, so recently I bought one CIB, for $150 (plus tax: 170). I think JP prices are cheaper if you might look into that…? Also for gameplay, I really think the kids are intended to wander around for a couple minutes and collect chips before reaching the pavilion to start flying. So then NiGHTS can fly directly into the capture thing, and nearly ALL of the first round can be bonus time, everything double points. Plus it’s really fun, and the kids can collect most of the chips of the whole stage, if u want to. My favorite Dream is Splash Garden and I collect well over 100 chips as the kids, before I touch the pavilion. :)
I never knew you could skip the check-mark things in nights. I had a pretty similar experience to your first one but with the saturn version. I had been meaning to try it again some day.
Shay, you say that Nintendo always struggled with making worlds, rather than levels. I completely agree with you on that. Aside from one franchise, Metroid. I'd like to think that's self explanatory. I'm not faulting you on making that statement, because it was in reference to Mario. I just wanted to point that out. :D
+Insanitee Rap-turr Oh, absolutely - there are definite exceptions even within the Mario series itself. But I think Super Metroid has a lot in common with Sega's stuff: shorter games, a better sense of place, and even some hidden techniques to help the player master it!
Fantastic video, as always. And I can certainly agree with a lot of your points. Even in spite of how confused I was during my first playthrough of NiGHTS, I can't deny that the surreal feel of the game held my attention and made me want to learn more about how everything worked. And now it's just satisfying to return to and run through so gracefully.
I've never played a NiGHTS game exactly because of the points you bring up in the first few minutes, even though I was always curious about it. And that's because I easily get frustrated with a game and lose all my interest in it if I can't figure out what to do and how to do it without failing ten times. I love figuring out controls myself as much as I appreciate a well crafted in-game tutorial, but if neither the level design nor the control scheme make any sense without reading explanations for them, I tend to just leave the game be and move on to a more pleasing experience. Also, I don't know if it's just me, but looking at this footage, I think I would be really, really confused about where my character would go next were I to play this game. I just can't see the 2D path NiGHTS will take very well, and many times while watching this I anticipated them to go somewhere different. I'm usually not that bad with depth perception and the likes, but for some reason the design of the levels just overwhelms me more than anything.
You touched in something that i've never thought about regarding sega games. I recall playing nights for the first time when the steam version cameout aswell and after the first lap being blownaway by it's creativity and the unique take on the score based gameplay, instant love at that first mare. And honestly, i've been this way with every sega classic, mostly because i play sega games since my earliest memories of life (sonic 1 my first game ever, and i also had out run, collums, sonic 2, sonic 3, flicky, shadow dancer, space harrier and streets of rage 1), so no wonder most of my friends don't get my love for these games, while when i get to play anything sega from the 80s and 90s i instatly love it for it's arcade style. I'd argue sega only need to communicate their weird game design to the player better, cuz once you get the idea, their games provide experiences no other game in the industry can.
I think your hypothesis at the end about the difference of time and types of games accessible between generations of gamers is spot on for why many older games face scrutiny and the ever so eye rolling (for me anyway) "it aged poorly" critique
I have to thank you for making this video. About 5 or 6 years ago, I had tried this game via emulation, and couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. I ended up dismissing it, without ever seeking any assisstance. It's a shame that the game didn't really include any explanation of the mechanics, but with a bit more foresight, I'm hoping this time, I can get a lot more enjoyment out of a game that honestly looks like a blast to play. This time, buying it off of Steam, of course.
This is a truly quality video that makes some excellent points about learning to love classic games that people could really stand to hear today. The gut reaction of a lot of people after fiddling with a game like Nights for 10 minutes is “It was probably neat for its time...” The truth is the way we engage with video games has changed over the years, and a whole lot of classics have lost their original context as a result. Sometimes you’ve gotta put in a little work to understand the true worth of something.
I've been working a script about why I love the Sonic series and what makes Sega special, and you brought up all of my ideas in this fantastic video. Dang it, now I have to change up my script. New release date: 2031
Great video. Next time I have some free time, I think I'll give NiGHTS another shot. I had a lot of the same issues you had with the game when you first played it, but I feel like if I tried to play it again with the same mindset you had on your second playthrough, I'll enjoy it a lot more.
0:10 Colonial marines was entirely "Gearbox's" fault. They took the money Sega gave them to.make the game, and used it to pay far less.for another developer to make it, and the rest to make the borderlands series. Sega later sued after the games flop, and you should know by now who won. (Hint: Gearbox isn't around anymore)
Incredible work as always buddy. Your analysis is always objective and well constructed and I totally agree with NiGHTS too and I had the exact same experiences and learnt like you about how to actually play it properly and the lack of conveyance is evident but when it clicks oh my god.. there's nothing like it and every single december I always play christmas nights to get into the spirit. Can't wait for part 3 of spitball but take your time, if you're not enjoying it then it will only become a chore and the quality will suffer because of it. All the best buddy!
17:22 That saying was spot on. Growing up I only had a DS and the ocasional visit to the cousins for the Wii. I often find myself loving DS tittles for their sheer creativity and nostalgia. A few months ago, I was browsing FB Marketplace and saw a DS Zelda tittle, I, uniimformed and naive, picked it up. It arrived, Legend of Zelda Spirit Tracks. From the moment I got the cartridge to work, I fell in love with the game. The controls (touch controls) took a few hours to set in but they clicked since the beggining. I had played 2d Zelda before and not liked it for multiple reasons, but this one just clicked with me. Awsome music, engaging gameplay, everything. To then find out there is a ton of people that just couldn't click with the controls and I'm fine with that... but I felt, so alone. I recently tried the PH, and I love it too, hoping I can soon get a real cartridge to play it properly but I definetly will.
This is such a brilliant explanation :) Nights is a series I've never given the chance it deserved. Picked up, fiddled with, and slowly backed away from because it's so unintuitive.
Hey ShayMay, I wanted to say a big thankyou for your insight. Ive watched this before...but I was able to watch it again because it was so good. it made me a bit happy because it reminds me of the decisions I made with the game I just released. Mastery of the Skill to complement the style.
ShayMay, have you tried NiGHTS Journey of Dreams? I felt it faithfully recreated the ideas of the original while adding character depth and a little more variety.
I agree with a lot of your thoughts here, especially when you talk more about Nintendo's line of games. Nintendo almost always prides itself on having a player grasp the mechanics of a game as soon as possible, which I think creates a much more immediate feeling of having fun in a game. However, beyond that, I've always found them to struggle with creating levels and worlds that really excite a player and have them reflect on the experience that each level provides. A good example that you provided was with Super Mario World; I adore that game's mechanics and the way that Mario handles in that game, though I can't bring myself to do an entire playthrough of it because of the lack of variety with the levels themselves. Sega, at least mainly with their Sonic games (it was all I played back in the day), seemed to have the strengths that Nintendo was lacking in their games back then (and even still do today, arguably) by creating games that focus on a multitude of playthroughs in order to fully master them, no matter how simple or complex their controls are. It's possible that one reason why I think most people look down upon Sega is because of this need of having to replay their games over and over again; I think most players want to be able to fully grasp a game upon their first playthrough, rather than through the second, third, or even seventh one. That way, it makes it much easier to suggest a game to a friend and to have them possibly enjoy it as much as you do. Especially with so many games around the market competing for attention, there has been a lot work put into perfecting the art of first impressions.
Games back then (mid 90s) always had a manual that told the story and the object of the game and much more. I've only ever played the game on the Sega Saturn, and whenever I'd try to share it with my friends I would playthrough a level and explain it as I went before I handed over the controller. That's just how they made games back then. Of course if you do really poorly, then the game gives you hints (which really just state the obvious) at the end of each level. I also liked Mario Sunshine best of the Mario games but still prefer the experience of Nights over Mario to this day. And since I didn't own any video games a month I decided to get a Sega Saturn, and the very first game I got was Nights and Christmas Nights.
As someone who tends to focus on game mechanics, I think conveyance can make or break a game, and is why a lot of older games, whether they're good or not, don't click for a lot of people. I would absolutely condemn a game for poor conveyance because I've already had too many instances of trying to stick with something in the hopes of it getting better only to be let down (not that that number has been extraordinarily high). I understand that a lot of earlier games didn't have the digital room to allow them to explain their mechanics to the player, but in my opinion that's just an excuse for poor game or level design, as even as far back as the NES days levels were very carefully constructed to teach the player the mechanics without being obtrusive about it. And given that, as you say, nowadays we have a wealth of media vying for our attention, I usually see little reason to play through a mediocre game more than once in the hopes of it getting better rather than going to experiencing something else. For my example, I'll point to Rogue Legacy. Rogue Legacy is designed to get the player to play through it a lot, but I just found the game to be middling at best, and I have a library of well over 100 other games I could be playing instead, with half or more being games I've never even played before. So, I simply quit playing because it didn't seem worthwhile to put another 50 hours or more into the game just to see if it was worthwhile, when I had all these other options that I knew would be. I mean, I can see your point, and in a way I agree with you (I give large grace periods to the media I consume), but at the same time I don't think I'm going to go out of my way in the hopes of finding subtlety that might not be there. It was still a great video, though.
And that sums up why as a kid (besides him always moving like he's on ice and his momentum feeling skating a brick on a treadmill) I always did prefer Sonic to Mario. LEVEL DESIGN! For all the talk of Sonic being "Push right to win" that really is a criticism that doesn't get levelled at Mario's entirely linear obstacle courses.
Nights is one of those games I always wanted to play growing up but never had a system to run it on, I imagine by this point there is bound to be an emulator out there. I adore Nights design and one of my favorite things was to read the announcement blurb in a gaming magazine. (I was a poor child that couldn't afford jack shit, used to read the mario sunshine manual a kid left on the bus, I was a sad sad little kid)
Another Sega game that is short but promoted mastery is Phantasy Star Online. It's a simple game with only a few stages but there is a lot of depth to it. I've played through the stages literally hundreds of times and it's still fun. Slowly improving my character and also figuring out better and faster ways to kill the enemies is so enjoyable.
+Inazuma65 PSO was my jam as a kid. I never actually played it online, it was always split-screen with my brother. But I feel like, after a while, the game gets repetitive. That could be because my most recent character is a Hucast though, and all that matters is my attack stat :P
On the one hand, this was a very good opinion case and highlights how through careful analysis and understanding can let people appreciate other games. I think this is as good as The Sonic Spitball vids and I hope to see more of these for other SEGA titles. On the other hand, I am disappointed by the misdirection of the title, as I thought what was going to be a dissection and analysis of all the highlights and bad decisions SEGA has done up till now in the same vein of the Spitball videos, turns out to be an opinion piece on Shay's encounter with NiGHTs. Just a little heads up next time.
+ShayMay Yeah, yeah, I know, we all gotta do what we must to get hits and subscribers. But I feel your content has enough weight to it that you don't need to attract anyone with false advertising. It's good enough on it's won merits. Who knows, maybe this can blossom into another series where you can go through your favorite SEGA games and talk about them...you know while we're waiting for the final episodes of Sonic Spitball. Maybe this will help inspire you on the final script. Sorry if I came off condescending, just wanted to put my two cents. Have a happy new year.
14:06 reminds me how i feel about fighting games, or at least the flashy anime type ones i really enjoy. between the controls, physics, and unique character mechanics, there's a lot of idiosyncrasy to doing even relatively simple actions in these games, and that's without even getting into the whole human element of opponents. but that's what part of what i find so captivating about the genre, the uphill climb of these mechanics outright refuses to freely grant the player the fighting-combat power fantasy, the "style." like, even though i'm trash at fighting games, i still love my time with them because i love that more intimate, personal journey that comes with incremental, self-directed improvements with stuff like muscle memory, problem solving, recognizing patterns and situations... maybe i should try NiGHTS, haha
Okay, I'm going to be completely honest with you. This is the third video of yours I've watched and, while this one is certainly the best of the three and you seem to be getting better with each video, I unfortunately cannot say you're the type of youtuber I particularly like to watch. I'm not really sure what it is about you or your videos that's stopping me from enjoying them but what I do know is that, while none of your videos made me angry or upset, none of them were really particularly engaging either. I did watch this, your Samus video, and your Sequelitis Response all the way to the end but your videos really didn't have any form of hook that I felt I could latch onto. I'm sure with more time and dedication you'll find yourself a larger fanbase that loves the videos you output. I'm simply not going to be part of it.
thank you! my favorite games were always the ones that you relayed to death to master. that's why I loved SEGA games. we didn't have many games, but it wasn't the longer games like Croc that we relayed, it was SEGA rally and Sonic CD
Whenever anyone questions Sega's skills I have one answer and it is all that I require... F-Zero GX. One of Nintendo's greatest ever racing games was made by Sega, and I have to take my hat off to them. Well done chaps. Well done.
It's always good to have games be good when replaying and I can't deny that SEGA really nailed that back in the day, the problem with most SEGA games is that most people's first playthrough is gonna be a less than stellar experience which can put people off for a long time and honestly they wouldn't be wrong for calling the game bad for that reason.
Well, you answered the question for Classic Sega, but not modern. Anyway, I don't know about what you said in the video. A game should be fun since the first playtrough, and get better as a result of playing it multiple times.
I think He means by that back then no body understood some of Sega's games back thing because we didn't know how to play them I think that's why Sega is bringing back classic games it's for the people to try them again it's a fresh start if u think about it i myself didn't know about nights or sega having more consoles when I was young but as I'm thinking after this video I'm kinda upset that I missed some cool games I had the 64 because well it had fun games and I never knew about the Saturn at all but since people are seeing Sega's old games right now it helps people realize what they missed
I had the exact same experience with Fantasy Zone. I remember when I unlocked and played it for the first time in ultimate Genesis collection, and pretty much immediately hating it. But, since then, I've picked up a copy of SEGA 3D Classics solely for Puyo Puyo 2, Sonic, and Power Drift, and have found myself coming back to Fantasy Zone 2 W, even just for a short few rounds of Link Loop Land.
Shaymay I enjoy your videos. They are so in depth even though the topics have been covered many times you present plenty of new content. Also the accent is awesome, so you could read the script of someone else's videos and it would be enjoyable and unique
I haven't seen the whole video yet, but I disagree with your initial interpretation of Nights. I was 8 years old when I played the original Nights for Sega Saturn. As soon as you start the game, as you said, the bad guys steal your stuff and imprison them in capsules. In the hud you have an icon that says "chips> capsule". You also have an arrow pointing you in the direction of Nights. Therefore, the initial interpretation of the player is that you must collect these "chips" and bring them to the capsule to get your stuff back. The controls themselves are simple, using the dpad + one button, and the Score and Rank system made sense, as many games still followed an Arcade mindset at the time.
As good as NiGHTS is, it really is hard to understand for newcomers. It didn’t have a proper tutorial, you’re just thrown into a weird Japanese dream world with gameplay that’s not quite as forgiving as other games of today. It’s certainly a game that a game that can take time, or a friend explaining it to you, to get used to. The sequel, Journey of Dreams, while still harder than other games released at the same time, was definitely easier to get used to thanks to the proper tutorial. But maybe I’m weird, idk.
Extraordinarily well put, though I think 64 feels more like a classic Sega game than Sunshine, even though there are more levels and aren't as visually appealing, the gameplay and level design requires more time to master and compliment each other well to give a real sense of ebb and flow. Sunshine's gameplay I feel is more deliberate in its design and the levels feel more 'gamey' at times especially Rico Harbor. Of course Sega still did it way before Mario 64, and do in a way that's much more unique and appealing.
Like you say, the game didn't make its mechanics clear. The replay value should have been made more obvious in the menu with details on collectibles and playthroughs. N64's major games had replayability but it was made obvious in the menus and hub worlds. I also agree that we play games differently now. I recently bought the sonic games master system renditions, played them, didn't get far, then left them. As a kid I would have cherished each new game as I got it and played it to death, mastering it and loving it. SEGA games definitely have that in common across their catalogue as one that I did practice and perfect more recently are the outrun games...
Well, said. I do think this is a pretty interesting perspective on the whole issue of whether or not SEGA was ever good. I just think it really does boil down to the whole fact that SEGA's mindset and philosophy is entirely different from that of Nintendo's, and indeed other game companies. That said, it did chafe me a little to hear you be so exclusive towards only Classic Sonic. It kind of comes with the insinuation that none of Sonic's more modern titles possess those qualities. I feel like this isn't really true, or else I wouldn't have the desire to frequently replay them. Especially in the case of the Adventure titles or the Boost games. Just something to think about.
I've seen people defend Sonic Lost World on the grounds that it gets better with each subsequent playthrough, to which the general response is "if the game isn't fun the first time around, why bother?" I still think like that to a certain extent, but having watched this video, I can see where those people were coming from. Of course Lost World has a whole other mess of issues that keep it from being good, but it just goes to show Sega has held onto this design philosophy even to the current day
Three years late, but the Aliens title was Gearbox's fault, one that their CEO defends to this very day, not Sega, they merely published it. It's like saying Nintendo botched Metroid Other M, despite Team Ninja being the ones who made it.
I played the wii version when it came out and absolutely hated it. Since then I've been wondering if people who like the original liked it at all or if it was just bad, and i'm curious if I'd like the original. Didn't even know it was on steam, if it still is maybe I'll give it a chance.
While I sort of agree that SEGA did make SOME games that you needed to master to appreciate, I really don't think that was true for the majority of their console games back in the day. Streets of Rage, Wonderboy, Golden Axe, Phantasy Star, Alex Kidd, Shinobi, Shenmue, Columns, SEGA Rally, Virtua Fighter - none of these popular games required repeat playthroughs to get to grips with them.
Great video, but you've conviniently forgot about the Yakuza games. Even though they're pretty long, have easy to master mechanics, and can be fully discovered in a single playthrough, doesn't mean they should be forgotten just because they don't fit your standards of a true Sega game.
Here's my issue with Nights as opposed to Sonic which was covered in this video. While Sonic may take a bit to click with someone it on average takes a much shorter time to click. Even when you don't understand Sonic completely when you start the first level it's still something to experience and you can have a decent enough time enjoying the adventure for what it is. Nothing about the game design or style is really hidden from the player or is something that you won't get from a quick breeze through of the game manual. It has a solid foundation of conveyance. Nights however suffers from this problem as pointed out in the video. You may like the game now but this was only after playing it once to not like it due to it's poor conveyance as to what was the correct way to play, reading the manual with it's lack of description, then having to watch a video of someone else's gameplay to understand what you should have been doing to have fun and get better rankings. When I first tried Nights a few years ago I came to the exact same conclusion you did after playing the first level with the added negative that I was completely tired and annoyed with ranking systems due to Sega's later Sonic the Hedgehog games. I wasn't willing to go back to an older game and deal with a Ye Olde version of what was to come. Imagine my dismay when I did my first "lap" of the course to find out I was being graded again and it seemed to require perfection from me to get a better grade. Watching your video showing the correct way to play makes me curious to see if I could enjoy the game now given some actual proper instruction but I kind of doubt I will enjoy it THAT much more. I've recently grown to detest game design based around making the player play the same thing over and over again...probably also due to Sonic's later games and ranking system. I want to play a game again because I enjoy what I'm doing not because the game tries to impose on me a feeling that I HAVE to so I can enjoy it or meet some arbitrary goal. I'm not sure Nights does that and its design seems to be inherently based around someone with lots of time on their hands playing it over and over. This is where the game falls flat for me. It requires something I'm not willing to give. Thanks for at least showing the correct way to play the game. I did start to look fun after that and I may give it a shot again in the future. This game probably would have been better for me as a Kid with the time and proper instruction. As an Adult now though with a plethora of other things to worry about and other forms of entertainment that don't require as much of an investment of time and energy I don't really want to go back to this sort of game design philosophy.
What?! Was Sega ever really good?! The answer too this question is a resounding yes. Anyone saying Sega wasn't great in the 16-bit era either didn't experience the 4th generation of consoles or are deluded Nintendo fanboys. Unfortunately, there are quite a few of them almost anywhere you look. I received my Sega Genesis in Christmas of 1989 and it was flat out amazing. Their arcade games from the 1990's were second to none. Sega did not lead the 16-bit generation from 1989 through the beginning of 1995 by being a bad at what they do. Yes, they made many mistakes but when they were on...they were second to none. Addendum- Before anyone says I'm some type of fanboy myself...I love all gaming. Just as I grew up with a Sega Genesis/Sega CD, I also had an Snes. Today our (fiancee and I) home is one giant playpen for gamers. We have every console from the Atari 7800 through the Xbox Series X and PS5 *physical. Fanboys suck.
I dunno what took people "so long" to realise that the Sonic Adventure games were shit, I remember getting my Dreamcast of Spring time 2000 and I had Sonic Adventure with it, because I loved the Mega Drive games, and literally within the first week I traded it in and got my money back. What utter shite and I had no real concept of nostalgia back in early-mid 2000 because I was 9 years old so I wasnt pandering to the "old days". The Mega Drive, Saturn and Dreamcast were Sega at their best just great fun arcade games and a few years after the DC died Sega were releasing some solid games on other machines.
not even going to watch this video, only an idiot would come up with the answer "no sega never were really good" its hard to imaging what the video game industry would be like now without sega! i dont think any company in this business could claim to be as influential and shown the innovation that sega have, only nintendo can come close! it was nintendo and their illegal monopoly kept sega back in the mid 80's but nintendo didnt have a monopoly over the arcades and this is where sega really showed off what they could do! its unfortunate how sega have ended up and many find sega's fall from grace a target for much amusement but the video game industry nowadays certainly has something missing without them!
...I should probably get around to changing that thumbnail at some point, I hate how clickbait-y I made it. Anyway, yeah, I agree. I see a lot of revisionism from people that simply don't understand how Sega games work: since they follow a different design philosophy to Nintendo games they often get dismissed without folk really trying to engage with them.
Were Sega ever really good?
Well, they did make a fighting game with a car as a playable character, so obviously yes.
Mike Rotch Plays Games Wait what?
The game is Fighters Megamix.
Yuuup
not only that, they have a tree as a playable fighter
14:20 Here's another comparison. Don't treat an orange like an apple. you have to peel the skin and separate the parts to get the most of it. And apple is simple, bite into it, done. Oranges aren't. Apples and oranges. Mario is the apple, sonic is the orange.
Poetic
You know, your talk of Sega games are about mastery and learning the game over time gave me an idea on how I look at a favorite of mine: Sonic Adventure 2 Battle.
You see, I believe half the reason I like that game so very much, contrary to the popular opinion, is that I'm so good at it. I can easily get an A Rank in almost every level of that game, including the Treasure Hunting levels and Mech Shooting levels.
And I got that way through a lot of time and dedication given to that game.
So now I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe the game was designed to be skewed more towards the Sega Arcade mentality. All the faults you pointed out in Sonic Spinball Part 2-More linear Sonic/Shadow levels, the game limiting you to detecting 1 emerald at a time, the slightly clunky mech movements-can also, like NiGHTS, be turned into positives.
The linear Sonic levels give the player a more clear sense of what they need to do and how to do the perfect A Rank run so the complications of 3D space can be ignored for what's in front of you and what you have to do. And therefore, when you're doing that perfect A Rank run, it looks and feels more spectacular in that linear environment because the level is more concentrated and stuff is constantly happening.
Detecting 1 emerald piece puts a huge emphasis on clearing the level as fast as you can, knowing where the emerald will be with as few hints as possible, and knowing how to get it. You need all the time you can get in the stages, because you can only get a handle on one piece. There's a real sense of urgency and knowing just what you're doing that wasn't there in Adventure 1's treasure hunting stages. Dare I say, in Adventure 1's treasure hunting stages, there was a real laxs-a-daisy attitude to collecting the emeralds that allowed you to phone it in a bit. This time, at least, you get some adrenaline. And you have to be fast. In a Sonic game, huh.
The clunky mech controls are clunky because what really matters as far as the game is concenred is aiming your gun, which is mostly done with tilts on the analog stick that don't affect the position of your mech. Locking on huge multiples of targets and letting loose the lasers are a big factor in your score and your A Rank, so the controls giving more priority to your range makes sense, even at the loss of more control. Turning around isn't smooth because the game wants you facing forward 90% of the time for better aiming and more point bonuses and designs the levels to accomodate facing forward the majority of the time.
Now, this is just a hypothesis. And even if there was a kernel of truth there, NiGHTS is still a sh*t ton more approachable in learning and mastering it's rules. Sonic Adventure 2 leans towards mastery, but in doing so, perhaps it sacrifices smooth gameplay. And it's nowhere near as fun to master even after you make that leap. I remember many grueling hours put into Death Chamber just trying to familiarize myself with it so an A Rank would come. And don't even get me started on Missions 3 and 4 of the Kart levels. And *especially* don't get me started on A Ranking those missions. And while I do enjoy seeing that big point bonus after locking down and shooting 11 targets... that's really the only part of the Mech Hunting levels I like. I think the game is trying to make the destruction that results from my skill and the general destruction feel awesome and spectacular, but quite honestly, a PS1 game simply called ONE beat explosion shooty porn to the punch and did it a sh*t ton better 4 years before SA2. On weaker hardware. Not to mention they probably could have had the same skill net with locking on into double digits with Gamma's smoother control from SA1.
In fact, this game may have ultimately, purposely make it play worse to make mastering it a harder goal. Which I've heard is a big no-no.
Still, it's a more positive (and fresh) perspective on SA2 that I think is interesting and worth thinking about.
Cheers,
Rarefoil
Awesome
This basically nailed my opinion on SA2 (especially your point on the Treasure Hunting Stages). It's a fun game with great ideas marred by poor conveyance and execution. Levels like Death Chamber are too expansive for their own good.
I think you're spot on, and that's exactly how I feel about SA2. While I will never again attempt to get all emblems, I can comfortably play almost any level in the game. MAD SPACE STILL FUCKING SUCKS)
SA2 sucks compared to NiGHTS
You're going to absolutely have to forgive me for taking so long on getting around to watching this episode, i had wanted to save it so that when i had time i could watch this all in one go ...and i only just now found the time XD So apologies for the hold up.
This video highlights something that quite a LOT of people actually do go through with NiGHTS, you've done a brilliant job of explaining it.
Newcomers to the game tend to slate it on their first try merely because they haven't got a clue what's going on or what they're supposed to be doing and on that note they write it off.
NiGHTS becomes good when the coin drops and you suddenly realise what the game is actually asking you to do.
Most games with a timer put the timer there to force you to finish what you're doing as quickly as possible but NiGHTS was different, NiGHTS wants you to chase every available second that it gives you and asks you how much can get done within that time. When i first figured this out it was honestly a mind-blowing moment and it changed my entire perspective.
Truth be told, me all of people you'd probably expect to say i was a fan from day one but i was in the same boat that everybody else was. I really disliked NiGHTS when i first played it. I just wanted to put Daytona USA back on and drive my little race car around the track. But i was talked in to giving NiGHTS another try and i'm so grateful i did because it became such a unique and fun game within my collection and ...seriously mate ...can you imagine me of all people NOT being a NiGHTS fan? XD
But i'm glad you remained honest about how this game didn't do it for you when you started it because you just highlighted a problem that everybody goes through when they first play this. The trick is to give NiGHTS a second try with a better understanding.
Anyways, nice work is all i wanted to say and here i am writing paragraphs, lol.
+DiGi Valentine I'll be honest, man, that's a wee bit of a relief. I wondered if you had seen it and thought "HE'S TALKING BOLLOCKS" but were just too polite to say!
Yeah, I think it's something that a lot of Sega games suffer from, like I say. I do think this video's just a wee bit slap-dash and generalised (it had a fairly tight turnaround because I wanted to get SOMETHING done after I cancelled Spitball), but I see so many TH-camrs and stuff play, say, classic Sonic and hate it because they're playing it like Mario. Which isn't totally their fault, but at the same time I wish it didn't have to be that way.
Anyway, much thanks man! Glad you enjoyed it! And I'm glad you went back to give NiGHTS that second chance, hahaha!
Lol, nah man. I just like to give videos my undivided attention, that's all. Especially the more in-depth analytical videos such as yours.
So have you effectively cancelled Spitball then? Like, entirely? I watched your update video which said you were holding off on doing the next part, has that changed to a complete cancellation now? Just wondering ~
+DiGi Valentine Aw, naw, sorry. Not completely cancelled, just kind of trashed the script that I had at the end of Summer and decided to work on this instead.
It's still coming! I just needed to reword it and give it a lot more pop.
This literally perfectly sums out an outsiders perspective of SEGA. It's one that has understandable reactions INITIALLY, but with time you can come to understand the REAL meat behind most of their older games. So e could certainly argue that having to play a game more than once to actually appriciate it is more people fooling themselves into believing they like it, or forcing themselves too, but I think it's quite the opposite. As you said, there is ALWAYS something new to discover almost every time you go through one of these games, I literally just discovered a Special Stage Ring in Sonic & Knuckles I never knew existed a few months ago, and I've played 3&K religiously since The Mega Collection! I got a Saturn for Christmas this year (Much to Segata's Delight :V) and I literally can't stop playing it, especially NiGHTS. Burning Rangers is having a bit of trouble sitting with me right now, again, not EVERYTHING Sega did was perfect, but not everything any company did was perfect. It's really just a shame that the integrity of their past games has to be brought into question like it does, but honestly they had it coming with how much they've been losing the trust of even their most die hard fans. If a fan has trouble respecting Sega, what reason does a newcomer have going into the older games without being overly cautious? Anyway, fantastic video. Sorry to be that guy, but you REALLY deserve more attention than you get man.
It's the type of game I enjoy more, which is why I detest all the TH-cam drama around old games that expected you to play more to master the mechanics and levels. Nothing feels better than having a fun yet clunkier progression on a first run only to pop it back in and annihilate the challenge with familiarity.
Many games now focus on constant dopamine-pleasers that don't really mean anything. Checked off a bunch of side quests or objectives on a huge map? OK, but nothing really happened, I just raised a number. I'm not getting better, I'm not overcoming anything, not engaging with any real mechanics. I just press buttons and things happen yet it's unfulfilling.
Any time someone asks if Sega was ever really any good, I look back at the Panzer Dragoon games and Skies of Arcadia and hold back my tears.
I would KILL to get a full-fledged series of Sega collections released worldwide. I would absolutely shell out for all 4 PD games, all of the Sakura Wars games, and all of the Shining Force games(including all 3 parts of SF3).
[cynicism] I think part of it is that people just want a punching bag. After all, its been proven that people love seeing folks tear things down, or react to things that are generally considered bad. And in the case of popular let's players, it's rather telling that while they make a huge noise about Sega's bad points, they usually quietly ignore games that are considered good. Taking shots at an easy and visible target is sure to roll in the views, and it doesn't get easier or more visible than a certain blue rodent with a near universally despised fanbase.[/cynicism]
This is why I was so pleasantly surprised to see Game Grumps do Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Since it's well made, it's not as easy to take swipes at the company, the fans, and the character, which is what I've seen largely defines playthroughs of poor Sonic games. As well, I'm actually very fond of ProJared's review of Sonic Adventure 2, as his views mirror my own on the game, and he manages to do it without throwing mud anywhere.
What bugs me about the Sega hate is not the fact that people don't like poorly made/heavily flawed games, but the mean spirited nature of it. I mean, most of the "Sega was never good" arguments I hear of mainly hinge on the person not liking Sonic The Hedgehog, and ignoring literally everything else they've done, even Altered Beast which actually was very weak. "Why doesn't anyone talk about Nights?", lets add to that "Why doesn't anyone talk about Ristar?"
They don't talk about Ristar or Nights or Virtua Fighter or the numerous other games Sega made because they've never played them. To people like this, any game that does not fit their narrow tastes is "bad" and if you dare to say otherwise then clearly you're a moron. Then these same types will complain that gaming is too dull and I just laugh at them. One of the things I liked about Sega was their willingness to experiment and try doing new things. Companies like WARP were great at that too but with the rise of gaming budgets and the gamer identity it was only a matter of time before that died out in the AAA companies.
Too much familiarity and your games grow stale. Too much variety and most people only like some instalments.
Im years late but nail on the head with internet media discourse,especially when a topic reaches a point where it's too well known for getting shat on, any good it genuinely did has to get ignored till a brave enough soul with their own large enough following bites the bullet to be that voice
there was no game this stylistic at the time.. the mood this game created was unparalleled in 1996.. it was groundbreakingly artsy
I think it was the very peak of Sonic Team and the Sonic series, and it was even a peak of all video games in general. It was too good and too obscure / unclear, and too profound. So games have never seemed so unique like this, ever again.
@@JamesChessman you're right, i agree
@@cloudair4154 haha it’s so interesting, I feel that if NiGHTS was successful, there’d have been a different evolution of videogames. Instead NiGHTS was an evolutionary dead-end, and games have really streamlined into a few different genres now, including Sonic Team basically settling into cartoon style platformers, oh well
Essentially the main reason I'm not a Mario fan. To me being a Mario fan is like being a fan of the refrigerator. It works as intended and it's awesome for keeping stuff cold, but I'm not going to form any emotional attachment to something that exists for function alone.
Unless it's a toaster or an electric blanket or something.
Well, there is a striking difference in terms of how both devs approach designing a game. For Nintendo the emphasis is most definitely placed on polish. The goal is to make a polished and functional game, rather than an experience. The connection is made purely because of the novelty of the game. Nintendo rarely ever double dips, they make a main series game on one console, then jump to the next in a bold attempt to continue sparking interest. Eventually that novelty turns into iconicism, becomes unforgettable to people regardless of whether or not it's "good" by today's standards.
Sega, on the other hand, was far less concerned with polish. Arcade games were meant to have an intense amount of detail and build complete personal connections with players, because that's what made people come back.
Novelty was not the selling point of an arcade game, because a large majority of them covered a very slim spectrum, which led to Sega's concern with doing things "first". They place time constraints and deadlines on their developers to try and push something into market that will immediately gain attention. People play arcade games not to "win", but to experience them. People do indeed play console games to "win". So when that novelty wears off and people go back to try these games, they're concerned not with getting to know them, but beating them.
That lends to people experiencing little niggles and issues that weren't resolved and fixed, due to developers not being given time to really polish the games. Yuji Naka himself admits he wish they had more time when working on all the Sonic titles, because there were so many things he wanted to fix.
The analysis you gave at the end was seriously spot on.
Additional to the point you make about having a lot of money and a lot of content vying for our attention, I think the luxury of having a save feature cannot be overstated. In the documentary 'The History Of Sonic: Birth Of An Icon' Yuji Naka states that the basis for Sonic's speed is the fact that people would have to play the early levels of the game over and over because they had to start from the beginning of the game every time they booted it up. Sonic's speed allowed the player to traverse the earlier levels faster and faster as they had become more familiar with the terrain from playing it over and over. Brilliant as this game concept is I think it was made null and void by the introduction of the save feature. The problem Sonic's mechanics adress is no longer a part of the contemporary gaming conscience, and as such I think it is hard for newcomers to enjoy the early 2D Sonic games without being aware of their historic context.
I think the saddest thing is that you will never hear this kind of question or dialog raised about any other company. Nobody has come out of the woodwork to ask whether or not Nintendo was ever any good at all as a result of snafu's like the Virtual Boy, or the (supposed) failings of the Wii U. I can gaurentee you that five years from now, whenever anyone talks about the utterly dismal and dreadful state that Konami is in right now- in many ways making them objectively the single worst game development company currntly operating- I can gaurentee the conversation will ALWAYS start with "back in the day, they were one of the greatest". Sega absolutely have released some real stinkers in their time, and have made more then a few fuck ups; to some extent, the distrust in the brand is deserved. But to suggest that a company that has been operating for an incredibly long time has never made anything good throughout said long and storied existence, and has coasted along on the marketing hype of a spikey blue mammal in fresh creps? It's ridiculous. And though I could and would happily write paragraphs about exactly why I think the rhetoric is, Shay outlined exactly why and put it much more eloquently then I ever could.
+DeconTheed92 I don't think any company is free of criticism. I have a friend who say that as a child he always found Mario boring and preferred Mega Man for example.
I think the problem is that Sega fans kind of miss those days when Sega was a real threat to Nintendo, so they try to convince everyone that Sega is relevant by saying how superior it was to Nintendo or how Sonic is superior to Mario.
I think this ultimately hurt Sega's reputation because Sega is not like Nintendo and Sonic is not like Mario. Each have different strengths and I think they should be looked at different lights. Sega is not as good at being Nintendo as Nintendo is, but Nintendo could be considered an awful Sega too. See how this debate get us nowhere? xD
Now, about Sega's reputation, they're the one that are undermining it. It's not like players started bad-mouthing Sega games for no reason. It is Sega that isn't being careful with the quality of their games and, as a result of that people have started looking more critically at their older games too. I think Shay May hinted at this at his video, but because of the arcade-y nature of Sega games, they didn't age well since we live in a time where the arcade is virtually irrelevant.
It's not that Sega games weren't good, they were, but maybe they are not the kind of games that appeal to the general public anymore. It's like Charles Chaplin's Modern Times. It's a critical success and many people say it was one of the most influential movies of the 20th century. But how many people enjoy watching Modern Times today? Very little compared to how many people go to the movies watch Twilight, but does it make Modern Times a lesser movie than Twilight?
+Stephen Weir (sunny) I admit, I can't argue with that. Whether or not you're actually going to enjoy Nintendo's output is subjective, but for the most part they've been more consistent with the objective quality of a large portion of their releases then most companies- including, to swallow my own pride for a second, Sega.
+Captain Davy Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you; in fact, that's kind of the point I was making. No company is free of criticism, and no company can objectively be considered "the best" because everyone wants something different out of their games, and different companies have different strengths that cater to those differing tastes. To me, claiming a company is a perfect bastion of amazingness who can do no wrong and etc. etc. is just as bad as claiming the opposite. I do tend to notice, with that caveat, that it does tend to be the die hard Nintendo fans that commit both the "SEGA WAS NEVER GOOD" AND the "NINTENDO IS PERFECT IF YOU DONT LIKE THEM I DONT LIKE YOU" sins, although its definitely not exclusive to them and it'd be a sweeping and unfair generalisation to say anyone that grew up with a NES is that way inclined.
+Captain Davy (cont.) And again, I agree that Sega has undermined their own failings in an attempt to wash them under the rug. As I said above, the distrust a lot of gamers have towards them right now has been earned, and as much as it pains me to say it really does feel like their standards have slipped terrifically in the last couple of years especially. It's doubly frustrating because we KNOW they can do better, above anything else.
That's because as a gamer, you should respect Nintendo. It literally saved the gaming industry. Even if (and that's a big if) Nintendo was never good, it's not something anyone will say because they wouldn't be a gamer without Nintendo.
I cannot thank you enough for this vid. As a huge Saturn fan, I've always wanted to like Nights, but I also didn't get it. Now, i can't stop playing. I finally like the flagship Saturn game. it's awesome, as are you.
+RetroCak Accumulations This is one of my favourite comments I've gotten so far. Really glad to see I got people to give it another go, and even more glad to hear you're enjoying it. Thanks!
I'm just glad I was a teen in the 90's to play NiGHTS when it first came out because it was mind blowing.
A very thoughtful analysis. IMO, an attract mode tutorial would have gone a long way towards helping players better understand the game's scoring system and mechanics. Kudos to you for sticking with it though!
So basically, Nintendo games are for filthy casuals. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Can't wait for Sonic Spitball 3.
+Lone Devil Actually, when you play Nintendo games a lot (as I have), you find a lot of the same nuance and depth that you do in SEGA games.
For example, Star Fox 64 has this rather obscure mechanic where carefully timed charged shots that don't directly hit enemies but damage them with the shot's splash damage rewards you with extra points. So if you don't lock-on, but instead fire your charged shots into a cloud of enemies at the right range so that the shot detonates among them, you can get extra points per group of enemies than otherwise.
Then there's the fact that the charge shot's rate of fire is based on the old arcade shooter mechanic where the number of shots on screen dictate how many of them you can fire over a given period of time.
The Arwing's charged shots automatically detonate when they hit terrain features. You can immediately charge and fire charged shots in rapid succession if you aim at objects closer to you than the charged shot's normal maximum range, and because the terrain doesn't count as an enemy, but the splash damage can harm nearby foes, you can "ricochet" charged shots for extra points.
Like Sonic and Mario, Star Fox 64 is very easy to pick up, but extremely difficult to master, and if you want awesome high scores, mechanics like these make that possible.
+GreyWolfLeaderTW I agree
i think Sega applied this same style-supplementing-substance approach to Daytona USA as well -- it has only 3 tracks, basically no car selection (outside of manual and automatic transmission) and might be passed off as just a stock car racing game. But damn, the drifting mechanic made it have so much more depth, giving 3 tracks far more entertainment to me than most titles with a double-digit number of tracks and cars to choose from.
Gunstar heroes was only Published by SEGA and developed by Treasure, but I see your point.
Its how I feel about Chu Chu rocket, Jet set radio & Crazy Taxi. Frustrating to just pick up & play but I tend to want to go back to them more often.
Also, did you ever try out the Wii Nights game?
+Ashuten Treasure's pretty good at this kind of arcadey fun
Alien Soldier, Ikaruga, Sin and Punishment Star Successor... it's their genre of expertise.
Journey of dreams is hot garbage
You know, after seeing him go through so many rings, I think that the N64 game it should really be compared to its Superman 64.
We don't talk usually about that abomination! Picking up cars and flying through rings with horrible controls, that's Superman 64 in a nutshell!
Interesting view... it kind of ties into the whole "zen state" that I so enjoyed back when I was first completing SA2, as that "style being the reward for skill" was probably a big contributing factor, at least back when said skills were still significant for me (I've since moved onto things like Super Meat Boy for my difficulty threshold, which is in a very different ballpark).
The thing is though, if I wasn't being challenged by the game itself to master it that way, I'd likely have never become that interested in it. That's probably why I don't consider Heroes and Shadow to be bad or even "okay" games, because even though they were definitely missing the exploration aspects of the Genesis titles, they still gave a legitimate challenge.
Heck, the fact that I view Unleashed as my favorite despite having been a Sonic fan since Heroes (pre-PS2 me couldn't comprehend what was good about Sonic, though that's long been rectified as my username should attest) fits into that well, because it managed to maximize both the exploration AND the challenge more than any other entry prior or since! It was every good part of the Sonic gameplay I had grown to love all rolled up into one concise package! Probably helped that I thought the Werehog levels were interesting as well, though I can easily see how those would get boring more quickly.
The quality of Sega's releases has been pretty erotic.
I guess if you find shit games hot than yeah.
I really love the Saturn version best, I noticed that the HD Splash Garden is missing the water animating on the beach areas. Original graphics really look best. ❤
I totally agree. Really wish I could get my hands on an NTSC Saturn and original pad and everything for this game.
@@shoogles_ Good luck! I bought my stuff before the modern higher prices of retro stuff. But I lost my 3D pad in moving, so recently I bought one CIB, for $150 (plus tax: 170). I think JP prices are cheaper if you might look into that…? Also for gameplay, I really think the kids are intended to wander around for a couple minutes and collect chips before reaching the pavilion to start flying. So then NiGHTS can fly directly into the capture thing, and nearly ALL of the first round can be bonus time, everything double points. Plus it’s really fun, and the kids can collect most of the chips of the whole stage, if u want to. My favorite Dream is Splash Garden and I collect well over 100 chips as the kids, before I touch the pavilion. :)
I never knew you could skip the check-mark things in nights. I had a pretty similar experience to your first one but with the saturn version. I had been meaning to try it again some day.
Shay, you say that Nintendo always struggled with making worlds, rather than levels. I completely agree with you on that. Aside from one franchise, Metroid. I'd like to think that's self explanatory. I'm not faulting you on making that statement, because it was in reference to Mario. I just wanted to point that out. :D
+Insanitee Rap-turr Oh, absolutely - there are definite exceptions even within the Mario series itself. But I think Super Metroid has a lot in common with Sega's stuff: shorter games, a better sense of place, and even some hidden techniques to help the player master it!
I think they've done a decent job with many of the Zelda games as well, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker being immediate examples I can think of.
Fantastic video, as always. And I can certainly agree with a lot of your points. Even in spite of how confused I was during my first playthrough of NiGHTS, I can't deny that the surreal feel of the game held my attention and made me want to learn more about how everything worked. And now it's just satisfying to return to and run through so gracefully.
I love your videos on Sega, they have become a misunderstood company, even in their heyday. Thanks for shining some light on these old treasures :)
I've never played a NiGHTS game exactly because of the points you bring up in the first few minutes, even though I was always curious about it. And that's because I easily get frustrated with a game and lose all my interest in it if I can't figure out what to do and how to do it without failing ten times. I love figuring out controls myself as much as I appreciate a well crafted in-game tutorial, but if neither the level design nor the control scheme make any sense without reading explanations for them, I tend to just leave the game be and move on to a more pleasing experience.
Also, I don't know if it's just me, but looking at this footage, I think I would be really, really confused about where my character would go next were I to play this game. I just can't see the 2D path NiGHTS will take very well, and many times while watching this I anticipated them to go somewhere different. I'm usually not that bad with depth perception and the likes, but for some reason the design of the levels just overwhelms me more than anything.
You touched in something that i've never thought about regarding sega games. I recall playing nights for the first time when the steam version cameout aswell and after the first lap being blownaway by it's creativity and the unique take on the score based gameplay, instant love at that first mare. And honestly, i've been this way with every sega classic, mostly because i play sega games since my earliest memories of life (sonic 1 my first game ever, and i also had out run, collums, sonic 2, sonic 3, flicky, shadow dancer, space harrier and streets of rage 1), so no wonder most of my friends don't get my love for these games, while when i get to play anything sega from the 80s and 90s i instatly love it for it's arcade style. I'd argue sega only need to communicate their weird game design to the player better, cuz once you get the idea, their games provide experiences no other game in the industry can.
I think your hypothesis at the end about the difference of time and types of games accessible between generations of gamers is spot on for why many older games face scrutiny and the ever so eye rolling (for me anyway) "it aged poorly" critique
I have to thank you for making this video. About 5 or 6 years ago, I had tried this game via emulation, and couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. I ended up dismissing it, without ever seeking any assisstance. It's a shame that the game didn't really include any explanation of the mechanics, but with a bit more foresight, I'm hoping this time, I can get a lot more enjoyment out of a game that honestly looks like a blast to play. This time, buying it off of Steam, of course.
This is a truly quality video that makes some excellent points about learning to love classic games that people could really stand to hear today. The gut reaction of a lot of people after fiddling with a game like Nights for 10 minutes is “It was probably neat for its time...” The truth is the way we engage with video games has changed over the years, and a whole lot of classics have lost their original context as a result. Sometimes you’ve gotta put in a little work to understand the true worth of something.
I've been working a script about why I love the Sonic series and what makes Sega special, and you brought up all of my ideas in this fantastic video. Dang it, now I have to change up my script. New release date: 2031
Great video. Next time I have some free time, I think I'll give NiGHTS another shot. I had a lot of the same issues you had with the game when you first played it, but I feel like if I tried to play it again with the same mindset you had on your second playthrough, I'll enjoy it a lot more.
0:10 Colonial marines was entirely "Gearbox's" fault. They took the money Sega gave them to.make the game, and used it to pay far less.for another developer to make it, and the rest to make the borderlands series. Sega later sued after the games flop, and you should know by now who won. (Hint: Gearbox isn't around anymore)
@@ManiacX1999 wow I never knew that
Extremely scummy
Incredible work as always buddy. Your analysis is always objective and well constructed and I totally agree with NiGHTS too and I had the exact same experiences and learnt like you about how to actually play it properly and the lack of conveyance is evident but when it clicks oh my god.. there's nothing like it and every single december I always play christmas nights to get into the spirit. Can't wait for part 3 of spitball but take your time, if you're not enjoying it then it will only become a chore and the quality will suffer because of it. All the best buddy!
17:22 That saying was spot on. Growing up I only had a DS and the ocasional visit to the cousins for the Wii.
I often find myself loving DS tittles for their sheer creativity and nostalgia.
A few months ago, I was browsing FB Marketplace and saw a DS Zelda tittle, I, uniimformed and naive, picked it up. It arrived, Legend of Zelda Spirit Tracks.
From the moment I got the cartridge to work, I fell in love with the game. The controls (touch controls) took a few hours to set in but they clicked since the beggining.
I had played 2d Zelda before and not liked it for multiple reasons, but this one just clicked with me. Awsome music, engaging gameplay, everything. To then find out there is a ton of people that just couldn't click with the controls and I'm fine with that... but I felt, so alone.
I recently tried the PH, and I love it too, hoping I can soon get a real cartridge to play it properly but I definetly will.
Surprisingly, the controls are smoother and more precise in the original Saturn version
This is such a brilliant explanation :) Nights is a series I've never given the chance it deserved. Picked up, fiddled with, and slowly backed away from because it's so unintuitive.
Hey ShayMay, I wanted to say a big thankyou for your insight. Ive watched this before...but I was able to watch it again because it was so good. it made me a bit happy because it reminds me of the decisions I made with the game I just released. Mastery of the Skill to complement the style.
ShayMay, have you tried NiGHTS Journey of Dreams? I felt it faithfully recreated the ideas of the original while adding character depth and a little more variety.
+EALionheart I played it years and years ago, long before I played the original. I didn't really get it back then either. I'd like to try it again!
I agree with a lot of your thoughts here, especially when you talk more about Nintendo's line of games. Nintendo almost always prides itself on having a player grasp the mechanics of a game as soon as possible, which I think creates a much more immediate feeling of having fun in a game. However, beyond that, I've always found them to struggle with creating levels and worlds that really excite a player and have them reflect on the experience that each level provides. A good example that you provided was with Super Mario World; I adore that game's mechanics and the way that Mario handles in that game, though I can't bring myself to do an entire playthrough of it because of the lack of variety with the levels themselves.
Sega, at least mainly with their Sonic games (it was all I played back in the day), seemed to have the strengths that Nintendo was lacking in their games back then (and even still do today, arguably) by creating games that focus on a multitude of playthroughs in order to fully master them, no matter how simple or complex their controls are. It's possible that one reason why I think most people look down upon Sega is because of this need of having to replay their games over and over again; I think most players want to be able to fully grasp a game upon their first playthrough, rather than through the second, third, or even seventh one. That way, it makes it much easier to suggest a game to a friend and to have them possibly enjoy it as much as you do. Especially with so many games around the market competing for attention, there has been a lot work put into perfecting the art of first impressions.
Games back then (mid 90s) always had a manual that told the story and the object of the game and much more. I've only ever played the game on the Sega Saturn, and whenever I'd try to share it with my friends I would playthrough a level and explain it as I went before I handed over the controller. That's just how they made games back then. Of course if you do really poorly, then the game gives you hints (which really just state the obvious) at the end of each level.
I also liked Mario Sunshine best of the Mario games but still prefer the experience of Nights over Mario to this day. And since I didn't own any video games a month I decided to get a Sega Saturn, and the very first game I got was Nights and Christmas Nights.
As someone who tends to focus on game mechanics, I think conveyance can make or break a game, and is why a lot of older games, whether they're good or not, don't click for a lot of people. I would absolutely condemn a game for poor conveyance because I've already had too many instances of trying to stick with something in the hopes of it getting better only to be let down (not that that number has been extraordinarily high). I understand that a lot of earlier games didn't have the digital room to allow them to explain their mechanics to the player, but in my opinion that's just an excuse for poor game or level design, as even as far back as the NES days levels were very carefully constructed to teach the player the mechanics without being obtrusive about it.
And given that, as you say, nowadays we have a wealth of media vying for our attention, I usually see little reason to play through a mediocre game more than once in the hopes of it getting better rather than going to experiencing something else. For my example, I'll point to Rogue Legacy. Rogue Legacy is designed to get the player to play through it a lot, but I just found the game to be middling at best, and I have a library of well over 100 other games I could be playing instead, with half or more being games I've never even played before. So, I simply quit playing because it didn't seem worthwhile to put another 50 hours or more into the game just to see if it was worthwhile, when I had all these other options that I knew would be.
I mean, I can see your point, and in a way I agree with you (I give large grace periods to the media I consume), but at the same time I don't think I'm going to go out of my way in the hopes of finding subtlety that might not be there. It was still a great video, though.
And that sums up why as a kid (besides him always moving like he's on ice and his momentum feeling skating a brick on a treadmill) I always did prefer Sonic to Mario.
LEVEL DESIGN!
For all the talk of Sonic being "Push right to win" that really is a criticism that doesn't get levelled at Mario's entirely linear obstacle courses.
NiGHTS truly is a very confusing game at first, but it is worth playing it. If only the developers had made a tutorial level...
Nights is one of those games I always wanted to play growing up but never had a system to run it on, I imagine by this point there is bound to be an emulator out there. I adore Nights design and one of my favorite things was to read the announcement blurb in a gaming magazine. (I was a poor child that couldn't afford jack shit, used to read the mario sunshine manual a kid left on the bus, I was a sad sad little kid)
Another Sega game that is short but promoted mastery is Phantasy Star Online. It's a simple game with only a few stages but there is a lot of depth to it. I've played through the stages literally hundreds of times and it's still fun. Slowly improving my character and also figuring out better and faster ways to kill the enemies is so enjoyable.
+Inazuma65 PSO was my jam as a kid. I never actually played it online, it was always split-screen with my brother. But I feel like, after a while, the game gets repetitive. That could be because my most recent character is a Hucast though, and all that matters is my attack stat :P
have you played NiGHTS second game NiGHTS journey of Dreams for Wii
Since I first played Sonic at 14, I can completely agree with you on this!
On the one hand, this was a very good opinion case and highlights how through careful analysis and understanding can let people appreciate other games. I think this is as good as The Sonic Spitball vids and I hope to see more of these for other SEGA titles.
On the other hand, I am disappointed by the misdirection of the title, as I thought what was going to be a dissection and analysis of all the highlights and bad decisions SEGA has done up till now in the same vein of the Spitball videos, turns out to be an opinion piece on Shay's encounter with NiGHTs. Just a little heads up next time.
+Carlos Abdu I agree. I thought I'd make the title more provocative to get folk to click, but it's just tacky and I don't like it in retrospect.
+ShayMay Yeah, yeah, I know, we all gotta do what we must to get hits and subscribers. But I feel your content has enough weight to it that you don't need to attract anyone with false advertising. It's good enough on it's won merits. Who knows, maybe this can blossom into another series where you can go through your favorite SEGA games and talk about them...you know while we're waiting for the final episodes of Sonic Spitball. Maybe this will help inspire you on the final script.
Sorry if I came off condescending, just wanted to put my two cents. Have a happy new year.
14:06 reminds me how i feel about fighting games, or at least the flashy anime type ones i really enjoy. between the controls, physics, and unique character mechanics, there's a lot of idiosyncrasy to doing even relatively simple actions in these games, and that's without even getting into the whole human element of opponents. but that's what part of what i find so captivating about the genre, the uphill climb of these mechanics outright refuses to freely grant the player the fighting-combat power fantasy, the "style."
like, even though i'm trash at fighting games, i still love my time with them because i love that more intimate, personal journey that comes with incremental, self-directed improvements with stuff like muscle memory, problem solving, recognizing patterns and situations... maybe i should try NiGHTS, haha
Okay, I'm going to be completely honest with you. This is the third video of yours I've watched and, while this one is certainly the best of the three and you seem to be getting better with each video, I unfortunately cannot say you're the type of youtuber I particularly like to watch. I'm not really sure what it is about you or your videos that's stopping me from enjoying them but what I do know is that, while none of your videos made me angry or upset, none of them were really particularly engaging either. I did watch this, your Samus video, and your Sequelitis Response all the way to the end but your videos really didn't have any form of hook that I felt I could latch onto.
I'm sure with more time and dedication you'll find yourself a larger fanbase that loves the videos you output. I'm simply not going to be part of it.
No one gives a fuck, loser
thank you!
my favorite games were always the ones that you relayed to death to master. that's why I loved SEGA games. we didn't have many games, but it wasn't the longer games like Croc that we relayed, it was SEGA rally and Sonic CD
Whenever anyone questions Sega's skills I have one answer and it is all that I require... F-Zero GX.
One of Nintendo's greatest ever racing games was made by Sega, and I have to take my hat off to them. Well done chaps. Well done.
It's always good to have games be good when replaying and I can't deny that SEGA really nailed that back in the day, the problem with most SEGA games is that most people's first playthrough is gonna be a less than stellar experience which can put people off for a long time and honestly they wouldn't be wrong for calling the game bad for that reason.
Agree. Sega games require and open mind to be initially enjoyed.
Well, you answered the question for Classic Sega, but not modern.
Anyway, I don't know about what you said in the video. A game should be fun since the first playtrough, and get better as a result of playing it multiple times.
I think He means by that back then no body understood some of Sega's games back thing because we didn't know how to play them I think that's why Sega is bringing back classic games it's for the people to try them again it's a fresh start if u think about it i myself didn't know about nights or sega having more consoles when I was young but as I'm thinking after this video I'm kinda upset that I missed some cool games I had the 64 because well it had fun games and I never knew about the Saturn at all but since people are seeing Sega's old games right now it helps people realize what they missed
I had the exact same experience with Fantasy Zone. I remember when I unlocked and played it for the first time in ultimate Genesis collection, and pretty much immediately hating it. But, since then, I've picked up a copy of SEGA 3D Classics solely for Puyo Puyo 2, Sonic, and Power Drift, and have found myself coming back to Fantasy Zone 2 W, even just for a short few rounds of Link Loop Land.
Shaymay I enjoy your videos. They are so in depth even though the topics have been covered many times you present plenty of new content.
Also the accent is awesome, so you could read the script of someone else's videos and it would be enjoyable and unique
I haven't seen the whole video yet, but I disagree with your initial interpretation of Nights.
I was 8 years old when I played the original Nights for Sega Saturn.
As soon as you start the game, as you said, the bad guys steal your stuff and imprison them in capsules. In the hud you have an icon that says "chips> capsule". You also have an arrow pointing you in the direction of Nights.
Therefore, the initial interpretation of the player is that you must collect these "chips" and bring them to the capsule to get your stuff back.
The controls themselves are simple, using the dpad + one button, and the Score and Rank system made sense, as many games still followed an Arcade mindset at the time.
As good as NiGHTS is, it really is hard to understand for newcomers. It didn’t have a proper tutorial, you’re just thrown into a weird Japanese dream world with gameplay that’s not quite as forgiving as other games of today. It’s certainly a game that a game that can take time, or a friend explaining it to you, to get used to. The sequel, Journey of Dreams, while still harder than other games released at the same time, was definitely easier to get used to thanks to the proper tutorial.
But maybe I’m weird, idk.
You make me want to play again
Actually, Aliens: Colonial Marines was developed by Gearbox and only *published* by SEGA.
Extraordinarily well put, though I think 64 feels more like a classic Sega game than Sunshine, even though there are more levels and aren't as visually appealing, the gameplay and level design requires more time to master and compliment each other well to give a real sense of ebb and flow. Sunshine's gameplay I feel is more deliberate in its design and the levels feel more 'gamey' at times especially Rico Harbor.
Of course Sega still did it way before Mario 64, and do in a way that's much more unique and appealing.
why is there no music
+Teh Apeman There was going to be but I honestly forgot!
Like you say, the game didn't make its mechanics clear. The replay value should have been made more obvious in the menu with details on collectibles and playthroughs. N64's major games had replayability but it was made obvious in the menus and hub worlds.
I also agree that we play games differently now. I recently bought the sonic games master system renditions, played them, didn't get far, then left them. As a kid I would have cherished each new game as I got it and played it to death, mastering it and loving it. SEGA games definitely have that in common across their catalogue as one that I did practice and perfect more recently are the outrun games...
Right on! Love the video in 2021
man, i remember them admitting losing the fans' trust back in '15 and yet the STILL did sonic forces. depressing
Well, said. I do think this is a pretty interesting perspective on the whole issue of whether or not SEGA was ever good. I just think it really does boil down to the whole fact that SEGA's mindset and philosophy is entirely different from that of Nintendo's, and indeed other game companies.
That said, it did chafe me a little to hear you be so exclusive towards only Classic Sonic. It kind of comes with the insinuation that none of Sonic's more modern titles possess those qualities. I feel like this isn't really true, or else I wouldn't have the desire to frequently replay them. Especially in the case of the Adventure titles or the Boost games. Just something to think about.
I've seen people defend Sonic Lost World on the grounds that it gets better with each subsequent playthrough, to which the general response is "if the game isn't fun the first time around, why bother?" I still think like that to a certain extent, but having watched this video, I can see where those people were coming from. Of course Lost World has a whole other mess of issues that keep it from being good, but it just goes to show Sega has held onto this design philosophy even to the current day
NiGHTS is definitely a game worth playing
Your comment about your age at 1996. I was already 4 by the time the N64 was released.
Three years late, but the Aliens title was Gearbox's fault, one that their CEO defends to this very day, not Sega, they merely published it.
It's like saying Nintendo botched Metroid Other M, despite Team Ninja being the ones who made it.
Yes! Good to see you again!
NiGHTs. every time i recommend it and someone plays it, they always have your response.
it's a shame that journey into dreams wasnt as good
You've got a new subscriber this day.
I played the wii version when it came out and absolutely hated it. Since then I've been wondering if people who like the original liked it at all or if it was just bad, and i'm curious if I'd like the original. Didn't even know it was on steam, if it still is maybe I'll give it a chance.
Good to see more videos from you.
While I sort of agree that SEGA did make SOME games that you needed to master to appreciate, I really don't think that was true for the majority of their console games back in the day. Streets of Rage, Wonderboy, Golden Axe, Phantasy Star, Alex Kidd, Shinobi, Shenmue, Columns, SEGA Rally, Virtua Fighter - none of these popular games required repeat playthroughs to get to grips with them.
Great video, but you've conviniently forgot about the Yakuza games. Even though they're pretty long, have easy to master mechanics, and can be fully discovered in a single playthrough, doesn't mean they should be forgotten just because they don't fit your standards of a true Sega game.
Here's my issue with Nights as opposed to Sonic which was covered in this video. While Sonic may take a bit to click with someone it on average takes a much shorter time to click.
Even when you don't understand Sonic completely when you start the first level it's still something to experience and you can have a decent enough time enjoying the adventure for what it is. Nothing about the game design or style is really hidden from the player or is something that you won't get from a quick breeze through of the game manual. It has a solid foundation of conveyance.
Nights however suffers from this problem as pointed out in the video. You may like the game now but this was only after playing it once to not like it due to it's poor conveyance as to what was the correct way to play, reading the manual with it's lack of description, then having to watch a video of someone else's gameplay to understand what you should have been doing to have fun and get better rankings.
When I first tried Nights a few years ago I came to the exact same conclusion you did after playing the first level with the added negative that I was completely tired and annoyed with ranking systems due to Sega's later Sonic the Hedgehog games. I wasn't willing to go back to an older game and deal with a Ye Olde version of what was to come. Imagine my dismay when I did my first "lap" of the course to find out I was being graded again and it seemed to require perfection from me to get a better grade.
Watching your video showing the correct way to play makes me curious to see if I could enjoy the game now given some actual proper instruction but I kind of doubt I will enjoy it THAT much more. I've recently grown to detest game design based around making the player play the same thing over and over again...probably also due to Sonic's later games and ranking system.
I want to play a game again because I enjoy what I'm doing not because the game tries to impose on me a feeling that I HAVE to so I can enjoy it or meet some arbitrary goal. I'm not sure Nights does that and its design seems to be inherently based around someone with lots of time on their hands playing it over and over. This is where the game falls flat for me. It requires something I'm not willing to give.
Thanks for at least showing the correct way to play the game. I did start to look fun after that and I may give it a shot again in the future. This game probably would have been better for me as a Kid with the time and proper instruction. As an Adult now though with a plethora of other things to worry about and other forms of entertainment that don't require as much of an investment of time and energy I don't really want to go back to this sort of game design philosophy.
Sega where my Skies of arcadia and Panzer Dragoon series HD re-release ? >:(
What?! Was Sega ever really good?! The answer too this question is a resounding yes. Anyone saying Sega wasn't great in the 16-bit era either didn't experience the 4th generation of consoles or are deluded Nintendo fanboys. Unfortunately, there are quite a few of them almost anywhere you look.
I received my Sega Genesis in Christmas of 1989 and it was flat out amazing. Their arcade games from the 1990's were second to none. Sega did not lead the 16-bit generation from 1989 through the beginning of 1995 by being a bad at what they do. Yes, they made many mistakes but when they were on...they were second to none.
Addendum- Before anyone says I'm some type of fanboy myself...I love all gaming. Just as I grew up with a Sega Genesis/Sega CD, I also had an Snes. Today our (fiancee and I) home is one giant playpen for gamers. We have every console from the Atari 7800 through the Xbox Series X and PS5 *physical. Fanboys suck.
Were your clickbait titles any good?
You clicked on it!
Serious answer: no. Not worth it.
Nights is so much fun I loved it
who wants to challenge NiGHTS Into Dreams I will fight u m8 irl
But in all seriousness, great video bro.
I liked nights for the Wii a lot!
Subscribed, just for that lovely accent
i think NiGHTS was competing with superman 64.
I feel like this game should've been an arcade game
No one understands the NiGHTS game. It is one of my biggest bug bares ever and judging by that new game nore does the New Sonic Team.
I can’t exactly tell if his accent is Irish, Scottish, or Swedish🤔
It’s Scottish.
@@Bluesine_R yeah, actually, I figured it out on my own now. But thanks! Also, I forgot that I commented this😅
The remake looks awful, the children look like dolls. And it just doesn't feel as dreamlike without the Saturn jaggies.
da music to mystic forest is poppen
So basically, Sega was being an apologist and bad fans along with haters used it as an incentive to promote their mindlessness...
I just find Sega games incredibly boring, ever after replaying the games several times. But Bayonettas amazing.
game grumps is terrible
*Gearbox
No entiendo nada, no soy gringo >:'v
I dunno what took people "so long" to realise that the Sonic Adventure games were shit, I remember getting my Dreamcast of Spring time 2000 and I had Sonic Adventure with it, because I loved the Mega Drive games, and literally within the first week I traded it in and got my money back. What utter shite and I had no real concept of nostalgia back in early-mid 2000 because I was 9 years old so I wasnt pandering to the "old days". The Mega Drive, Saturn and Dreamcast were Sega at their best just great fun arcade games and a few years after the DC died Sega were releasing some solid games on other machines.
not even going to watch this video, only an idiot would come up with the answer "no sega never were really good" its hard to imaging what the video game industry would be like now without sega! i dont think any company in this business could claim to be as influential and shown the innovation that sega have, only nintendo can come close! it was nintendo and their illegal monopoly kept sega back in the mid 80's but nintendo didnt have a monopoly over the arcades and this is where sega really showed off what they could do! its unfortunate how sega have ended up and many find sega's fall from grace a target for much amusement but the video game industry nowadays certainly has something missing without them!
...I should probably get around to changing that thumbnail at some point, I hate how clickbait-y I made it.
Anyway, yeah, I agree. I see a lot of revisionism from people that simply don't understand how Sega games work: since they follow a different design philosophy to Nintendo games they often get dismissed without folk really trying to engage with them.
yes, very clickbait-y lol sega had their faults (boy did they have their faults!) but they knew how to make great video games!