Something that both forgot to mention in regards to the power balance discussion, is that you can cast a top deck tutor in response to the trigger, which makes that effect incredibly more powerful
The only instant speed top deck tutor that seems consistent play in the decks that might run this is vampiric tutor and sometimes worldly. It’s something you can do, but it’s not a real sell for the card by itself
@@ColorsAreACrutch Ok, I am late to this conversation, but 10 years ago there was a staple card in Damia called "Insidious Dreams" Check it out and Imagine casting it in response to a Thassa's Oracle.
just wanted to add, re: Amphibian Downpour: 1) the name and flavor is amazing (a card named Downpour has Storm) 2) if there are EVER viable enchantress style effects, the spell becomes "2U, Flash, Storm, Draw a Card". I dont know if that's powerful enough, but it feels like it could easily be broken/abused.
28:30 Wounded, you forget that your opponent can hit counterspells off the top of their deck! So what they hit can indeed stop you. If you cast Basalt Monolith and someone's Powerbalance reveals Force of Negation or Flare of Denial off the top, they get to counter your Basalt Monolith and stop you.
@@domotoroOfficial He does, but I think he dismisses it too quickly. He uses the example of casting Signet and Mana Drain is on top. Yeah that's not the greatest play but it's a may ability. You can choose not to cast the Mana Drain, at which point the revealed Mana Drain causes your Power Balance to act very much like the Counterbalance that Wounded was saying was good in control builds.
@@domotoroOfficial Because Wounded said the problem with Powerbalance is you're not stopping your opponents from doing anything. Which just isn't true. In fact in Niv Mizzet and other control builds where he talks about how great Counterbalance is, that would be where Powerbalance is most likely to hit disruption off the top and stop someone. He didn't correct himself later even after realizing counters could be hit. And if you want to argue about moving goalposts I'm not invested enough in this argument. I only wanted to point out that Powerbalance can be disruptive as well.
What people forget is that the new nightmare has an ETB trigger, which means it can be destroyed in response while the previous one did not. At the same time - what do you guys think about the lurrus baby farm with stranger things commanders? It can play both U and R flares, as well as nightmare since the BW commander is an outlet for the loop with dockside. It can also be recast with lurrus
im excited to try powerbalance in tymna jeska. most builds are on ~24 lands so if early game you can rite of flame or lotus petal this card out, then all your opponents developing will help you cast 1-2 drop creatures from the top of the deck which then helps dig you closer to your lands. this can really help set up a strong early game tymna plan that propels you towards a combo-ready position. and if theyre that afraid of giving you a free magda that they refrain from casting that arcane signet, then sure, slowing them down is just fine
Flare of Denial seems ideal for Yuriko, they often have some evasive creatures they can sac, or they can just sac Yuriko and put them back into play for 2 mana anyways.
I see a lot of hype around flare of denial but we already have abjure and no one uses it. Abjure let's you sac ANY blue permanent for 1 mana counter. Granted you have to sac to use it unlike flare of denial but like have you ever seen abjure?
I use Abjure in Minn, where it's pretty good. But it's definitely a niche. But I can't think of a competitive deck that has extra blue creatures to sacrifice for the new counterspell.
@@a.velderrain8849 personally think minor misstep is under rated. Everyone runs dispel for almost the same reason. I have been trying out minor misstep and its super nice to have those early turns. It also counters 0 mana spells not that it's relevant really lol. I run abjure in Yuriko which is niche deck already and I may run new counter in also but I can't think of anything else id want to run it in. The thing about sacing a creature is its not really free to use since you had to pay mana for on board creature(and it has to be nontoken now!). It's just a backup to your other counterspells when you have no mana left. (Ha I got chu! I actually have a counter left!)
Agree with Wounded on Powerbalance. I got a lot of flak from other community members on this but personally I don't see it. Counterbalance has a strong stax effect that makes people think twice when they go for the win against an unrevealed top card. And then once revealed,the stax effect stays until the top is manipulated. Counterbalance also does more when the top card is a land. Personally seems fringe, I'm sure there will be decks that can run it, like Stella getting cast counts to help her win at instant speed. Which is great, but it's not the "oh my God this is the next red Rhystic" people are hyping it to be. Also there's a play pattern difference where you hold Counterbalance as long as possible but for Powerbalance you're gonna reveal it instantly, I think that weakens the effect a lot. But we'll see. Personally more interested in the Amphibian Downpour. That's a very interesting/strong effect for 3 mana. Goes very well with decks that prefer holding up mana. Might go in my Sisay deck tbh.
I believe you are forgetting that the Nightmare requires you to sacrifice a creature to activate, so I'm not sure that would be so simple to go infinite. At least not without a suboptimal include like the recurring zombies or castable creatures from the graveyard. Still agree it's a nuts card, but not that simple to just pop off :)
You just need dockside or any other creature in yard, and then you loop those two same creatures over and over with the only spell being cast being the nightmare
@@ColorsAreACrutch Oh ok, I see, you loop one dead creature and Dockside. Yeah that's better 😊 the creature has to have MV 3 or less, but in cEDH that wouldn't be hard!
My question is what happens with Ward? If Player A targets Player B’s Ward creature and Player C asks them to save their spell for something else, wouldn’t that take back prevent the Ward trigger?
I mostly think Wounded has the better insights on the new cards and I do think people are way over hyped on Power Balance but, dude, what do you mean random value isn’t good? Almost all value is random. Can we agree that playing a random card for free is better than putting it in your hand? “Draw a card” would be random. In many decks this “card advantage + mana advantage” will be better than only drawing a card. And you say “can we agree that countering someone’s thing is better than this random value?” No! No not at all. Countering someone’s thing is not as good as getting your own thing. This card is better than counterbalance and I am a counter balance believer. It won’t go in every red deck and it’s not gonna be like “red r study” like some people are saying. This is going to be in the format and it is absolutely going into low color red decks and decks that can manipulate their top decks. It’s better counterbalance (IN 4 PLAYER GAMES) I would think OG counterbalance as better in 60 card 1 v 1 where there actually is an argument about what’s better, stopping a thing or doing a thing. In our format that’s not a real argument let alone just an obvious fact of the matter that we all “can agree on”✋😯 Hold up! This ain’t counterbalance
The only thing I don't like about the talk-no-jutsu ruling is that it makes Oppo less good because it means people don't have to eat the shit sandwhich of accidentally dropping a tutor when there has been an oppo for like 6 turns that everybody forgot about it. They just get to be like "Oh theres an oppo? Nevermind I don't do that."
One of your opponents still have to remind you of the oppo with the intent of having you take the tutor back (and do it immediately) for you to get a take back
@@ColorsAreACrutch This IS the way that works... Opposition Agent has been on the board and one of your opponents fetches or plays a tutor, forgetting there is an Oppo on your board, another opponent can say "woah, there is an Oppo on his board, you shouldn't do that" and the player who cast the tutor gets to take it back, denying you the search. That is exactly how that interaction goes with this new rules change.
Fwiw the change is across the board for breakers the lower limit is what's used for byes so not the worst breaker you can have is .2 instead of .33 based on the expected result should someone play a full event
Havent watched yet but i can only assume Sculpty Boi Cal did the tagline for your vid 😂 33:50 H P Lovecraft came up with the name. Honestly we're lucky given the wild shit he wrote up, couldve been waaay more indecipherable.
HP Lovecraft came up with the name Cthulhu, yeah, but he didn't come up with the words chthonian or chthonic, which are from ancient Greek (via Latin). These words probably inspired the name Cthulhu, but they're really just old Greek words meaning "of the earth."
I think it might have been. I'm personally not super excited about that card. Where do you think it will see play? Also just completely forgot about new Gilded Drake, that 100% should have been on here - Wounded
I disagree with the MTRA 4.8 discussion. To me it removes the ability for your opponents to "make mistakes" which has always been a crucial part of competitive magic i.e. capitalizing on your opponents mistakes. For specificity in the example of discussing a counterspell or something like an orcish bowmaster target to me the ruling should always be the discussion ought to be brought up by the active player. I do this all the time where maybe I'm not familiar with a card or a loop somebody is presenting and I have interaction, I will discuss with the table on the best points of interaction sometimes even showing the other players what I have to get their input. To me this is much closer to the spirit of "competitive" play. Being able to after the fact take back game actions feels like a sloppy attempt at a solution.
I'm not a fan of the power balance analysis. Sure, you can invent scenarios where power balance is bad. I can invent scenarios where power balance is good. We have accomplished nothing.
answer is no , nothing good enough in this set :P most time you silence before loops anyway, so flute is meh. and take backs are not for competitive, mtg does this everywhere, take backs are not competitive.
Something that both forgot to mention in regards to the power balance discussion, is that you can cast a top deck tutor in response to the trigger, which makes that effect incredibly more powerful
The only instant speed top deck tutor that seems consistent play in the decks that might run this is vampiric tutor and sometimes worldly. It’s something you can do, but it’s not a real sell for the card by itself
@@ColorsAreACrutch Ok, I am late to this conversation, but 10 years ago there was a staple card in Damia called "Insidious Dreams" Check it out and Imagine casting it in response to a Thassa's Oracle.
just wanted to add, re: Amphibian Downpour:
1) the name and flavor is amazing (a card named Downpour has Storm)
2) if there are EVER viable enchantress style effects, the spell becomes "2U, Flash, Storm, Draw a Card". I dont know if that's powerful enough, but it feels like it could easily be broken/abused.
28:30 Wounded, you forget that your opponent can hit counterspells off the top of their deck! So what they hit can indeed stop you. If you cast Basalt Monolith and someone's Powerbalance reveals Force of Negation or Flare of Denial off the top, they get to counter your Basalt Monolith and stop you.
wounded literally acknowledges this in the video right after your timestamp?
@@domotoroOfficial He does, but I think he dismisses it too quickly. He uses the example of casting Signet and Mana Drain is on top. Yeah that's not the greatest play but it's a may ability. You can choose not to cast the Mana Drain, at which point the revealed Mana Drain causes your Power Balance to act very much like the Counterbalance that Wounded was saying was good in control builds.
@@a.velderrain8849 how is it now “he dismisses it too quickly” when your original post said “you forget”? seems to me you are moving the goalpost
@@domotoroOfficial Because Wounded said the problem with Powerbalance is you're not stopping your opponents from doing anything. Which just isn't true. In fact in Niv Mizzet and other control builds where he talks about how great Counterbalance is, that would be where Powerbalance is most likely to hit disruption off the top and stop someone.
He didn't correct himself later even after realizing counters could be hit. And if you want to argue about moving goalposts I'm not invested enough in this argument. I only wanted to point out that Powerbalance can be disruptive as well.
@@a.velderrain8849 I’m not “wanting to argue about moving goalposts”. I am saying as a fact that that is what you did, lol.
What people forget is that the new nightmare has an ETB trigger, which means it can be destroyed in response while the previous one did not.
At the same time - what do you guys think about the lurrus baby farm with stranger things commanders? It can play both U and R flares, as well as nightmare since the BW commander is an outlet for the loop with dockside. It can also be recast with lurrus
Shhh! bad deck. Dont worry about it
im excited to try powerbalance in tymna jeska. most builds are on ~24 lands so if early game you can rite of flame or lotus petal this card out, then all your opponents developing will help you cast 1-2 drop creatures from the top of the deck which then helps dig you closer to your lands. this can really help set up a strong early game tymna plan that propels you towards a combo-ready position.
and if theyre that afraid of giving you a free magda that they refrain from casting that arcane signet, then sure, slowing them down is just fine
Flare of Denial seems ideal for Yuriko, they often have some evasive creatures they can sac, or they can just sac Yuriko and put them back into play for 2 mana anyways.
I see a lot of hype around flare of denial but we already have abjure and no one uses it. Abjure let's you sac ANY blue permanent for 1 mana counter. Granted you have to sac to use it unlike flare of denial but like have you ever seen abjure?
Mental Misstep: autoinclude staple
Minor Misstep: sees no play
One mana vs 0 mana makes all the difference.
I use Abjure in Minn, where it's pretty good. But it's definitely a niche.
But I can't think of a competitive deck that has extra blue creatures to sacrifice for the new counterspell.
It’s absurd that you need to pay mana to counter shit 😏, sarcasm aside would like to see the decks that OP plays in cedh, if any ❤❤
@@a.velderrain8849 personally think minor misstep is under rated. Everyone runs dispel for almost the same reason. I have been trying out minor misstep and its super nice to have those early turns. It also counters 0 mana spells not that it's relevant really lol. I run abjure in Yuriko which is niche deck already and I may run new counter in also but I can't think of anything else id want to run it in. The thing about sacing a creature is its not really free to use since you had to pay mana for on board creature(and it has to be nontoken now!). It's just a backup to your other counterspells when you have no mana left. (Ha I got chu! I actually have a counter left!)
What's all the hype about An Offer You Can't Refuse when we have Negate and no one plays that?
Chthonian Nightmare will be a Ob Nixilis staple, I'm going to be cutting Cloud stone Curio for it.
hype for chthonian nightmare in Ob as well, still can't decide if you cut cloudstone or run em both.
I enjoyed this analysis, especially the rules changes discussion, thanks.
i think that the flute can be really good if played with kitten. one turn it ruins LED the next turn you make it counter kenrith or kinnin.
the photo of max holding max in the thumbnail is so cute!!!
I will say it gives more power in this set to colorless Cedh so im hyped about that
Agree with Wounded on Powerbalance. I got a lot of flak from other community members on this but personally I don't see it. Counterbalance has a strong stax effect that makes people think twice when they go for the win against an unrevealed top card. And then once revealed,the stax effect stays until the top is manipulated. Counterbalance also does more when the top card is a land. Personally seems fringe, I'm sure there will be decks that can run it, like Stella getting cast counts to help her win at instant speed. Which is great, but it's not the "oh my God this is the next red Rhystic" people are hyping it to be. Also there's a play pattern difference where you hold Counterbalance as long as possible but for Powerbalance you're gonna reveal it instantly, I think that weakens the effect a lot. But we'll see. Personally more interested in the Amphibian Downpour. That's a very interesting/strong effect for 3 mana. Goes very well with decks that prefer holding up mana. Might go in my Sisay deck tbh.
I believe you are forgetting that the Nightmare requires you to sacrifice a creature to activate, so I'm not sure that would be so simple to go infinite. At least not without a suboptimal include like the recurring zombies or castable creatures from the graveyard. Still agree it's a nuts card, but not that simple to just pop off :)
You just need dockside or any other creature in yard, and then you loop those two same creatures over and over with the only spell being cast being the nightmare
@@ColorsAreACrutch Oh ok, I see, you loop one dead creature and Dockside. Yeah that's better 😊 the creature has to have MV 3 or less, but in cEDH that wouldn't be hard!
@@BaalRoi Four if you sequence it right
Im gonna love casting my Cthullian Nightmare with my Buurjjii out on the field.
Cant wait to loop Basal slivers in Modern and Cedh
My question is what happens with Ward? If Player A targets Player B’s Ward creature and Player C asks them to save their spell for something else, wouldn’t that take back prevent the Ward trigger?
Flare of malice seems sweet in Yuriko
I mostly think Wounded has the better insights on the new cards and I do think people are way over hyped on Power Balance but, dude, what do you mean random value isn’t good?
Almost all value is random.
Can we agree that playing a random card for free is better than putting it in your hand? “Draw a card” would be random. In many decks this “card advantage + mana advantage” will be better than only drawing a card.
And you say “can we agree that countering someone’s thing is better than this random value?” No! No not at all. Countering someone’s thing is not as good as getting your own thing.
This card is better than counterbalance and I am a counter balance believer. It won’t go in every red deck and it’s not gonna be like “red r study” like some people are saying. This is going to be in the format and it is absolutely going into low color red decks and decks that can manipulate their top decks.
It’s better counterbalance (IN 4 PLAYER GAMES) I would think OG counterbalance as better in 60 card 1 v 1 where there actually is an argument about what’s better, stopping a thing or doing a thing. In our format that’s not a real argument let alone just an obvious fact of the matter that we all “can agree on”✋😯
Hold up!
This ain’t counterbalance
The only thing I don't like about the talk-no-jutsu ruling is that it makes Oppo less good because it means people don't have to eat the shit sandwhich of accidentally dropping a tutor when there has been an oppo for like 6 turns that everybody forgot about it. They just get to be like "Oh theres an oppo? Nevermind I don't do that."
That is definitely not the way this works
One of your opponents still have to remind you of the oppo with the intent of having you take the tutor back (and do it immediately) for you to get a take back
@@jeppebakmand2962 It's not so far fetched that your opponents wouldn't tell them, because it would mean you get a free search.
@@ColorsAreACrutch This IS the way that works... Opposition Agent has been on the board and one of your opponents fetches or plays a tutor, forgetting there is an Oppo on your board, another opponent can say "woah, there is an Oppo on his board, you shouldn't do that" and the player who cast the tutor gets to take it back, denying you the search. That is exactly how that interaction goes with this new rules change.
Where is the official link from Wizards for this Google Document? Because the MTR 4.8 still says nothing about these changes.
Yuriko will run the free counter for sure
What about Volatile Stormdrake?
Max p, you coming out to Stafford on Sunday? Would love to see you at the scrubland event!
Soooo, will there be "MTRA 4.8, Talk-no Jutsu" Merch available?
😳 that sounds sick
Fwiw the change is across the board for breakers the lower limit is what's used for byes so not the worst breaker you can have is .2 instead of .33 based on the expected result should someone play a full event
Why on earth in a COMPETITIVE format should targets not be final🤯🤯
The black flare is so good in tergrid
Havent watched yet but i can only assume Sculpty Boi Cal did the tagline for your vid 😂
33:50 H P Lovecraft came up with the name. Honestly we're lucky given the wild shit he wrote up, couldve been waaay more indecipherable.
HP Lovecraft came up with the name Cthulhu, yeah, but he didn't come up with the words chthonian or chthonic, which are from ancient Greek (via Latin). These words probably inspired the name Cthulhu, but they're really just old Greek words meaning "of the earth."
I agree with all the takes on necrodominace but, Im still trying this in clam
"Chthonian" is an existing word, it's in the dictionary
Was the blood artist/disciple hybrid marionette card not spoiled at the time of recording?
I think it might have been. I'm personally not super excited about that card. Where do you think it will see play? Also just completely forgot about new Gilded Drake, that 100% should have been on here - Wounded
Loved the show❤
I disagree with the MTRA 4.8 discussion. To me it removes the ability for your opponents to "make mistakes" which has always been a crucial part of competitive magic i.e. capitalizing on your opponents mistakes. For specificity in the example of discussing a counterspell or something like an orcish bowmaster target to me the ruling should always be the discussion ought to be brought up by the active player. I do this all the time where maybe I'm not familiar with a card or a loop somebody is presenting and I have interaction, I will discuss with the table on the best points of interaction sometimes even showing the other players what I have to get their input. To me this is much closer to the spirit of "competitive" play. Being able to after the fact take back game actions feels like a sloppy attempt at a solution.
i hope they dont ban chthonian nightmare =/
Double speed 🎉
I'm not a fan of the power balance analysis. Sure, you can invent scenarios where power balance is bad. I can invent scenarios where power balance is good. We have accomplished nothing.
Looks like Max is staying at Treasure Island based on that lamp in his room. Am I right?
MGM grand -Max P
answer is no , nothing good enough in this set :P most time you silence before loops anyway, so flute is meh. and take backs are not for competitive, mtg does this everywhere, take backs are not competitive.
CEDH should have never existed in the first place TBH. The LAST thing I want from a casual format is to become competitive too
Kinda hope ot duz. cEDH Players are the worst kind of pubstomping gatekeepers. It's LITERALLY Legacy for cowards
Cant wait to buy some more overpriced cardboard