what is needed for Spy to not suck? a Primary weapon slot of shotguns and iron sighted rifles, perhaps? I had the idea of a new Core Class Spy Passive called Spy Tech Ballistic weave. the Passive is simple: "When you kill someone with a melee or backstab, get 20% damage resistance for 3 seconds, does not stack with cloaking, cloaking removes the Ballistic weave buff" which could increase survivability during a fight.
@@IsacMH '...but he is D-tier due to a couple of factors. One, players still scream loudly when backstabbed, so trying to kill someone in a group will still result in everyone else turning around and shooting. All it takes is one person to accidentally hit to to expose you and result in your death. Two, people become super paranoid. There were even more pyros than usual and those pyros were spychecking at every opportunity, so hiding almost anywhere still results in you being found. Fire will always make you visible, and it only takes a single flame particle to set you on fire and result in certain death: even 500 health melts down to nothing under direct focus fire. The times when he did get kills were the same times where he gets kills anyway - on distracted players. The lack of a 2-second wait after decloaking did help with getting these stabs, but since the players were turning around much more frequently, it actually ended up evening it out.'
As someone who has exclusively played community servers for nearly 20 years, I genuinely didn't realise that bhopping isn't supposed to be in the game because literally almost every community server has it enabled.
B hopping is part of the reason why Scout in Team Fortress Classic is so notoriously awful outside of CTF. Mobility becomes less relevant when everyone can b hop
I know a lot of people are a fan of it, but b-hopping is the main reason I could never get into TFC and I realize the bias of me playing TF2 first, if only by a year. But b-hopping, despite requiring skill, throws class balance out the window making the gameplay less interesting to me. It reminds me of Beta Mannpower when Heavy was as mobile as every other class and virtually undefeatable with the right power-up
In TFC, CTF _was the main game mode_ believe it or not. I doubt that's true anymore, but this was true. The next most played mode was protecting a civilian.
@@alex_zetsu No its still true, in fact, TFC pickup games usually have a ruleset to make it asymmetrical with one team being offense and the other being defense, essentially scouts medics and spies throwing themselves at the flag while red team traps the fuck out of the flag with explosives and sentries. Pretty fun looking honestly.
I've seen gameplays of Scout on TFC CTF matches, and the entire video is the Scout bunny-hopping into sentry nests while under the effects of concussion grenades. It's absolutely terrible, but it's better than playing Demoman; ever since QWTF, it seems, Demo's job on CTF has been to lay down a sticky trap on top of the flag and wait for a random soldier to step on it. More like "Mineman." Seriously, I've seen Demos using their Super Shotguns more than their Grenade Launchers! How abominable is that?
9:10 i love how even this little victory of this sniper, him taunting afterwards and everything, is immediately cut off by the second B-hopping soldier coming in at light speed. F tier indeed
@fantastikboom1094 more like me when i have more than one braincell so i know how to fucking air strafe so i can catch people unlike that guy couldn't even catch a heavy
Off the thumbnail I thought this was going to the old version where backstabs has a delay, and you could start one and immediately begin cloaking to be invisible when the stab happens
I think it's only happened two times, one with HL2, where they push you backwards which gave birth to ABH, AFH and ASH and the other being just a cap on the speed you gain
Portal 2 has what could be considered a “bhop patch” as well, when you get above a certain speed it becomes very hard to influence your momentum (intended for the scripted momentum flings). It just happens that bhopping can easily get you past the threshold, which I think is 200 units/sec?
@@vxpdx They also introduced a gamerule setting default to soft patch it out of CS:S. You can still do it, but like CSGO and CS2 you're speed limited past a certain point. Otherwise everyone would be flying around like phoon lol
Scary things that would've happened if this stayed: battle engineer sneaking behind, demoknight with eyelander, revved up brass beast heavy, huntsman sniper charged up
Battle engie: possible, dunno Demoknight: *(Demoman laughing)* No. (Melee is near useless here) Brass beast: potential meme build. I wanna see it Huntsman Sniper: I doubt it, but I wanna see it anyways
I'd be interested both in whether specifically spy and trolldier are really worse, of if they're only represented as worse because they're high skill ceiling classes and players just havent had the time to truly end up the stabby of the format. I'd also be interested to know if heavy is really meta for objectives, or if its the case that the players who actually played objectives went heavy whereas the other players were more likely to be goofing off with their speed not neccisarily doing the objectives. Very interesting video all the same.
It really might just be that there wasn't enough time to get used to it. A month of twsting at minimum or a whole year at maximum is needed to set a proper baseline for a tier list. Spy probably eventually will be higher tier since his threat is far more scarier when all the spies figure out bhops
Assuming a completely flat location with no obstacles (the best case for bhopping), then there is no way for a Spy to decloak and catch up to a solider even if he bhops himself. This isn't a "Spy players didn't learn the meta" this actually wouldn't work. You might get the stab when the guy finally stops to shoot, but even if this was the new meta, it is worse than vanilla tf2.
Stuff like this makes me very appreciative of the game balancing decisions made by Valve back during the game's development. Things like the removal of bhopping, as well as grenades getting dummied out were decidedly very unpopular decisions among the TFC veterans at the time, but they were removed in consideration for the long term fun of the game. Yes, moving at supersonic speeds is extremely fun, and grenades were very powerful and fun to throw around, but overpowered options like these were incredibly overcentralized in TFC, and would've ultimately been detrimental to the gameplay of TF2 if they remained.
I could see grenades coming back, just toned down. We alreadyhave AOE throwable debuffs and with a long enough cooldown I think they'll be fine to have.
@@mariustan9275 The big problems with grenades were their general ease of use disproportionate to their incredible destructive power, as well as their lack of readability due to it being a dinky little prop that's easy to miss in the middle of a fight. I could see grenades being added again only if these things were actively addressed in their design, as this compounded with the fact that every class had grenades were the reasons why the meta in TFC was so centric on them.
they were removed because they didn’t really suit the devs’ vision of the game or the audience they targeted, not really because they were bound to ruin the game. they could have had tweaked bhop, revamped grenades, or iunno not make the map design -horse shit- a cramp fest if they found values in these gameplay elements. i think good, fast-paced tf isn’t impossible. it just wasn’t done. the devs always wanted a more tactical gameplay. only a niche has cared about the potential beauty of tf’s exploit borne flag speedrunning. best we have is fortress forever which made a bunch of changes, some interesting and some rather rubbish.
What I find strange is that bhopping they decided to remove in tf2 development before it's released. And yet... they still have to patch it out after release.
The point about capture the flag is the most interesting to me. Like many “What if” scenarios it reveals a lot more about what does not change. The Sentry Gun is just a very powerful tool. Team Fortress Classic also has bunny hopping, but strafing is better in that game, and the game’s sentry also has a limited angle to shoot from. Bunny hopping only makes Engineer weaker in that game, as opposed to how it seemingly works here.
It's funny how neither the tf2 nor tfc engineer directly uses bunny hopping, but one indirectly benefits and the other loses. In one game, it's meta defining and keeps the sentry gun from being a invincible roadblock to the intel. In the other one, not only is it useless for flying away with the flag, it hurts gameplay.
I feel like there's something hilarious that the two classes with the most immobile play styles dominated a game with a high movement tech. You can go mach 10 if you're good enough but you'll have to stop for the dude with the level 3 sentry.
Makes sense why Engineer and heavy is on top, it's because everyone is so busy Bhopping that they end up being reckless and landing into a sentry or a fully rev up heavy at close range.
When everyone has high movement tech, the top tiers aren’t the ones who benefit the most. They’re the ones who do the best job of shutting the tech down.
i imagine heavy also benefits from shortening his rollouts? Like it's not a defining feature of him that he's bad at rolling out of spawn with teleporters and all, but now he needs no teleporter to replant himself after a death
To be fair, spy mains already constantly B-hop as if it gives them some kind of advantage (it doesn't), so this is a buff to the average spy main's playstyle. Not that it makes said playstyle any less ineffective, but.
im surprised the reserve shooter wasnt mentioned in this vid - if theyre considered rocket jumping for the market gardner/air strike , wouldnt they be taking a lot more damage from it as well ?
It makes alot of sense that sentries would be really strong in this scenario given their entire purpose is specifically to stop people from overextending trying too hard to move forward without any team support.
The spy situation in this video is like those moments when you are playing pretend and you say "I can move very fast" and your sibling goes "I can do that too"
In my perspective the problem with bhops is that its kind of a barrier to entry that not everyone is signed up for since it isnt advertised as such a game
i once put up with a server where it was modded back in and it was hell i still have the server blacklisted to this day so i went to check up on it and its no longer up
I'm pretty sure accelerated Bhopping still exists in some capacity in TF2. I did notice a small amount of increased speed if you time jumps on declines, but it would quickly falter.
@@ChucktheSpicyChicken That's where Tone, Ronin and Northstar comes in They would still lose to Legion Scorch though, that's a menace that is on pair with 7 Heavies on the cart.
For anyone curios as to the specific music played in the background, "Monumental" is played twice, ending at 7:12, then "High Place", both by "Banana Slug"
I feel like if Valve didn't change it and instead took it as a game mechanic, weapons and class mechanics would be a lot more different. I can already see spy having a dash ability on knife weapons or just as character mechanic, bigger hitboxes for snipers to hit others more easily (possibly with a back item to launch snipers backwards so people aren't in their face) and demomen not being hurt by their own grenades and stickies. It could've been way more different, but I'm glad it got fixed.
At 6:40, it's funny but also ironic that TF2's meta can be explained in a way that the ecosystem of a jungle works. If there isn't equal predators to prey ratio for each animal, they are either elevated to the very top of the food chain immediately or go completely extinct.
I remember when not long ago players started abusing the cl_interp command on most classes. But specifically the Spy. With Spy being able to do with the command and execute delayed stabs whilst constantly jumping. It would be also difficult to do so but knowing some players were able to grasp this it would be too easy to catch up even though granted Spy being bad at this.
Engi Top Tier? Sniper bottom tier? I see no downsides. Legitimately, TF2 feels so sluggish nowadays since I've gotten into Quake. Bhopping is one of my favorite gameplay mechanics ever.
No downsides other than Scout and Demoman being nerfed into the ground, drastically lowering the skill ceiling of the game. Soldier getting a huge buff that he really doesn’t need. Heavy becoming meta after Sniper and Spy are completely wiped off the face of the earth and his movement speed no longer being an issue. Pyro being buffed is okay since he’s a bit weak outside of the Dragons Fury in base Tf2 but given that it would now be significantly harder to stay out of his range, he would be incredibly annoying. Essentially removing Demoman, Scout, Spy and Sniper would make the game incredibly boring after like two days. I agree sniper needs a neff/rework but breaking the entire game in the process is just stupid. If I were in control of balancing I’d remove all of Snipers hitscan weapons excluding the Sydney sleeper and replace them with projectile based weapons like Crossbows, Blowdart Rifles, whatever. I’d also remove the bodyshot damage increase for charging up the Sydney Sleeper but in replacement give it an AOE Jarate effect when fully charged. Probably have to reduce the size of the AOE by about 50% though. I think dealing 50 damage regardless if charge but being able to support your team would be a lot better than the current weapon and class in general. That’s my take
@@duarteribeiro1520 no it wouldn’t lmao. Straight up deleting a class is a terrible idea. Imagine if they had just deleted Spy instead of nerfing the Dead Ringer + Ambassador. Sniper as a fundamental class is fine, it’s just hit rifles that need to be toned down. I’d settle for having bodyshot damage chargeup simple being removed as a substantial nerf. Maybe also having headshots being changed to a base of 120 with a max damage windup of 360 as an extra but I’m not too sure about that. If the former of those changes were to happen though, the hitmans heatmaker would need to be changed significantly because its bodyshot damage is one of its main downsides.
I played on a server that was 24/7 bhop about six years ago. People who played with it a lot adapted to it and I didn’t think it was as bad as this video portrays it. Spy and pyro become more ambush/hit and run classes than usual. It took good planning to be able to dash in and out of combat without dying. Pyro had a hard time finishing kills but he was like a mosquito, very annoying to fight and also he could deal damage without needing to slow down and aim. Demo wasn’t as bad as here, but the server also unnerfed demo; airbursted stickies dealt huge damage and had the old splash radius. Once someone gets hit by a sticky the blast usually sends them off course from their bunny hop, often into a wall/object, killing their momentum and allowing the demo to easily finish them off. Demos also got wise to the fact that you don’t need to hide traps from players bhopping. Just carpeting an area of high traffic easily raked in kills. Shounic didn’t touch on the monster that is an aggressive heavy, which I saw a lot. A heavy ramming into a player usually resulted in that player dying. Of course he’s strong defensively, but offensively his usage goes way up with bhopping. Sniper is weaker with bhops, but honestly still good. The skill floor just goes way, way up and counter play is much more feasible. A good sniper is still good but a bad sniper is useless with bhopping. The worst effects of bhopping were felt on teleporters and medics. Teleporters for obvious reasons, medics because it made survival much harder and ubers less useful. The server had several quake-esque DM maps that felt great with bhopping, but regular gamemodes lost the usual pacing of TF2 and the gameplay loop became bhopping to the objective, dealing damage, and then dying.
Every fucking time anyone does one of these types of games they're like "Spy might be godlike" and then it always end ups being "He still sucks"
"We tried the game where spy can backstab while invisible and having 500 health, but he is D-tier due to..."
what is needed for Spy to not suck? a Primary weapon slot of shotguns and iron sighted rifles, perhaps?
I had the idea of a new Core Class Spy Passive called Spy Tech Ballistic weave. the Passive is simple: "When you kill someone with a melee or backstab, get 20% damage resistance for 3 seconds, does not stack with cloaking, cloaking removes the Ballistic weave buff" which could increase survivability during a fight.
@@IsacMH '...but he is D-tier due to a couple of factors. One, players still scream loudly when backstabbed, so trying to kill someone in a group will still result in everyone else turning around and shooting. All it takes is one person to accidentally hit to to expose you and result in your death. Two, people become super paranoid. There were even more pyros than usual and those pyros were spychecking at every opportunity, so hiding almost anywhere still results in you being found. Fire will always make you visible, and it only takes a single flame particle to set you on fire and result in certain death: even 500 health melts down to nothing under direct focus fire. The times when he did get kills were the same times where he gets kills anyway - on distracted players. The lack of a 2-second wait after decloaking did help with getting these stabs, but since the players were turning around much more frequently, it actually ended up evening it out.'
@@ME0WMERE Spy is a super difficult class because you need to be a psychology major to use him perfectly.
he is D-Tier due to sucking ass
What if every weapon in TF2 was at its best state in history? Insta spinning Tomislav, invincible dead ringer, faster than bullet bfb
That’s an awesome idea.
Pre-jungle inferno Sandman?
Well, then you'd have medic who would be... basically the same while everyone who counters him is mega buffed
@@lanthan598 he has a portable medic beam gun that heals people
Phlog with full health Regen, now we're talking
watching in fear and awe as the entire enemy team full of heavies starts bunnyhopping to the control point
“Yatatatatatatatatatata”
You know what's true evil? Bunnyhopping Heavies with Natascha
@@Rylaine That's insane.
Actually why nobody tried Natascha? It'd have at least some advantage with everyone bhopping
@@fantastikboom1094 6:37 2 natashas right there man
Bet it was horrible to bhop against
it broke the bro code
The idea of a hopping heavy out speeding a spy sounds both cursed and hilarious 😂
I'm fairly sure a GRU Heavy hit by the Soldier whip can run as fast as a Scout.
WHY is that fat man so fast?! Simple, He is Russian around
That spy was barely air strafing
@@vxpdx yeah, it's possible that what he described is accurate, but the video meant to illustrate it was just bad movement on shounic's part.
@@vxpdx the spy had horrible movement if he strafed better and didn't jump on ramps he would have caught him
TF2 characters being allowed to do Bhopping is the most scariest thing in existence
As someone who has exclusively played community servers for nearly 20 years, I genuinely didn't realise that bhopping isn't supposed to be in the game because literally almost every community server has it enabled.
Welcome to Fortress Forever
@@HOTD108_ lmao no they don't?
Gordon Freeman left us those teachings and the characters of Counter-Strike, too.
@@HOTD108_ The only servers I've seen have it are jailbreak servers and a couple of trade servers.
B hopping is part of the reason why Scout in Team Fortress Classic is so notoriously awful outside of CTF. Mobility becomes less relevant when everyone can b hop
that, and medic in TFC is just scout that can actually kill.
I know a lot of people are a fan of it, but b-hopping is the main reason I could never get into TFC and I realize the bias of me playing TF2 first, if only by a year. But b-hopping, despite requiring skill, throws class balance out the window making the gameplay less interesting to me. It reminds me of Beta Mannpower when Heavy was as mobile as every other class and virtually undefeatable with the right power-up
In TFC, CTF _was the main game mode_ believe it or not. I doubt that's true anymore, but this was true. The next most played mode was protecting a civilian.
@@alex_zetsu No its still true, in fact, TFC pickup games usually have a ruleset to make it asymmetrical with one team being offense and the other being defense, essentially scouts medics and spies throwing themselves at the flag while red team traps the fuck out of the flag with explosives and sentries. Pretty fun looking honestly.
I've seen gameplays of Scout on TFC CTF matches, and the entire video is the Scout bunny-hopping into sentry nests while under the effects of concussion grenades.
It's absolutely terrible, but it's better than playing Demoman; ever since QWTF, it seems, Demo's job on CTF has been to lay down a sticky trap on top of the flag and wait for a random soldier to step on it. More like "Mineman." Seriously, I've seen Demos using their Super Shotguns more than their Grenade Launchers! How abominable is that?
9:10 i love how even this little victory of this sniper, him taunting afterwards and everything, is immediately cut off by the second B-hopping soldier coming in at light speed. F tier indeed
"It's always the second Soldier that gets you"
Soldier jumpscare
based koishi pfp
role reversal
It's cathartic seeing a Sniper get karma'd
Of course every change in tf2 would be a Spy nerf
* Spy buff. The others are easier to stab without the hopping.
Its not, whoevers playing spy in this vid doesnt know how to play the class with such an insane advantage
@@guymanguy me when i dont leave the basement for 10000 hours and only play Spy:
@fantastikboom1094 more like me when i have more than one braincell so i know how to fucking air strafe so i can catch people unlike that guy couldn't even catch a heavy
@@guymanguy m8 ur being outrun by heavies, the one good matchup spy has just got harder, and sniper isnt played so there is that
Off the thumbnail I thought this was going to the old version where backstabs has a delay, and you could start one and immediately begin cloaking to be invisible when the stab happens
No he’s already done a video on that
@@YeetZmeNbro did not read what he said. Bro has ZERO braincells.
Same actually
Every single of these experiments ending up being indirectly a Spy nerf is a really funny recurring gag.
Also like
The fact that the TF2 comic #7 uploaded a few minutes after this video released is
Nuts
WHAT
Holy shit you're not lying!
my god... It's beautiful
@@SonicAdventureEnjoyer Spoilers >:(
THAT'S HOW I FIND OUT ?!!!
S tier goes to the ragdolls that become somehow even more goofy with this mod.
Speaking of tf2, tf2 comic 7 is out
epic
Came to the comment section to make sure people knew
YOU WHAT
@@jblazerndrowzy mfw someone uses a common word in the english dictionary
@@jblazerndrowzy What can I say, my boys can swim. My girls too, ofc
Omg I can’t believe you used footage of me chasing and failing to stab that bhopping heavy 😭
Owned
You poor bastard
Watching a Spy being unable to catch up to a Heavy was depressing
Muffled "Thé à la Menthe" in the distance.
1:05 the spy in question clearly didnt do the spacebar spam technique for a ramped surface
"Spy is C-Tier"
So nothing changes?
It went from c to c, awesome change 10 out of 10 becuase sniper is gone.
Well, apparently he did get worse, but thats not to noticable since 3 classes got worse then him even in his weaker state.
Nothing ever changes.
I just would like to see how many times Valve’s programmers had to patch bunnyhop in source engine
I think it's only happened two times, one with HL2, where they push you backwards which gave birth to ABH, AFH and ASH and the other being just a cap on the speed you gain
Portal 2 has what could be considered a “bhop patch” as well, when you get above a certain speed it becomes very hard to influence your momentum (intended for the scripted momentum flings). It just happens that bhopping can easily get you past the threshold, which I think is 200 units/sec?
@@shny_scott oh, you're right, the axis lockout! Yeah then there's 3, so far hah
@@vxpdx They also introduced a gamerule setting default to soft patch it out of CS:S. You can still do it, but like CSGO and CS2 you're speed limited past a certain point. Otherwise everyone would be flying around like phoon lol
Scary things that would've happened if this stayed: battle engineer sneaking behind, demoknight with eyelander, revved up brass beast heavy, huntsman sniper charged up
Just the thought of a Brass Beast heavy coming at your face at Mach 3 is scary enough to keep anyone awake at night.
You couldn't do these things while revved/scoped. You need to be in a state where you are able to jump.
@@InsightReasoninghuntsman sniper can jump while charging tho
@@superamogusbros5594 it can't. but it can shot meanwhile in the air
Battle engie: possible, dunno
Demoknight: *(Demoman laughing)* No.
(Melee is near useless here)
Brass beast: potential meme build. I wanna see it
Huntsman Sniper: I doubt it, but I wanna see it anyways
I'd be interested both in whether specifically spy and trolldier are really worse, of if they're only represented as worse because they're high skill ceiling classes and players just havent had the time to truly end up the stabby of the format. I'd also be interested to know if heavy is really meta for objectives, or if its the case that the players who actually played objectives went heavy whereas the other players were more likely to be goofing off with their speed not neccisarily doing the objectives. Very interesting video all the same.
It really might just be that there wasn't enough time to get used to it. A month of twsting at minimum or a whole year at maximum is needed to set a proper baseline for a tier list.
Spy probably eventually will be higher tier since his threat is far more scarier when all the spies figure out bhops
Assuming a completely flat location with no obstacles (the best case for bhopping), then there is no way for a Spy to decloak and catch up to a solider even if he bhops himself. This isn't a "Spy players didn't learn the meta" this actually wouldn't work. You might get the stab when the guy finally stops to shoot, but even if this was the new meta, it is worse than vanilla tf2.
TF2’s New Update
“Team Fortress 2 X Open Fortress Update”
Nah, TFC
7:40 the leadup to the ragdoll is actual cinema
Tripped on the stairs
9:55 that phlog pyro getting gardened on the cart is immensely satisfying to watch
fr
The rapidly approaching soldier a 9:15 is too funny to me
Lesson of the day, no one can outsmart boolet
Stuff like this makes me very appreciative of the game balancing decisions made by Valve back during the game's development. Things like the removal of bhopping, as well as grenades getting dummied out were decidedly very unpopular decisions among the TFC veterans at the time, but they were removed in consideration for the long term fun of the game. Yes, moving at supersonic speeds is extremely fun, and grenades were very powerful and fun to throw around, but overpowered options like these were incredibly overcentralized in TFC, and would've ultimately been detrimental to the gameplay of TF2 if they remained.
All they need to do is remove sniper
I could see grenades coming back, just toned down. We alreadyhave AOE throwable debuffs and with a long enough cooldown I think they'll be fine to have.
@@mariustan9275 The big problems with grenades were their general ease of use disproportionate to their incredible destructive power, as well as their lack of readability due to it being a dinky little prop that's easy to miss in the middle of a fight. I could see grenades being added again only if these things were actively addressed in their design, as this compounded with the fact that every class had grenades were the reasons why the meta in TFC was so centric on them.
they were removed because they didn’t really suit the devs’ vision of the game or the audience they targeted, not really because they were bound to ruin the game.
they could have had tweaked bhop, revamped grenades, or iunno not make the map design -horse shit- a cramp fest if they found values in these gameplay elements.
i think good, fast-paced tf isn’t impossible. it just wasn’t done. the devs always wanted a more tactical gameplay. only a niche has cared about the potential beauty of tf’s exploit borne flag speedrunning. best we have is fortress forever which made a bunch of changes, some interesting and some rather rubbish.
What I find strange is that bhopping they decided to remove in tf2 development before it's released. And yet... they still have to patch it out after release.
8:57-9:15 are some of the best frags ive ever had the fun of getting (also 5:24) really fun test shounic :D
763 cameo pagbounce
Crying face emoji
the sniper just Bitchslaps the soldier... I think you're the soldier right?
10:05 in the CAAC.
The point about capture the flag is the most interesting to me. Like many “What if” scenarios it reveals a lot more about what does not change. The Sentry Gun is just a very powerful tool.
Team Fortress Classic also has bunny hopping, but strafing is better in that game, and the game’s sentry also has a limited angle to shoot from. Bunny hopping only makes Engineer weaker in that game, as opposed to how it seemingly works here.
It's funny how neither the tf2 nor tfc engineer directly uses bunny hopping, but one indirectly benefits and the other loses. In one game, it's meta defining and keeps the sentry gun from being a invincible roadblock to the intel. In the other one, not only is it useless for flying away with the flag, it hurts gameplay.
Watching a bhopping heavy gaily prancing away from a spy that can’t catch him healed something in my soul
You might be able to outhop me.
Maybe. Maybe.
I have yet to meet one who can outhop *bullet.*
as if a bhopping demoknight would have not been better, it would be terrifying.
I feel like there's something hilarious that the two classes with the most immobile play styles dominated a game with a high movement tech.
You can go mach 10 if you're good enough but you'll have to stop for the dude with the level 3 sentry.
...1:33 ... what....
"Melee marth grab range" ahh backstab
I'm pretty sure it's based on velocity, faster you're going the farther you can backstab , i think
That's just a combination of lag compensation and TF2's busted melee hitreg.
Velocity and calculated positions are offset because of the higher Velocity so the game positions you you further forward then you seem to be
holy moly, actually saw the video in the first minute of being uploaded
Valve was scared of the eventual TF2 surfing if they didn't remove it
There is actually a couple surf servers even with pvp one that went down was really good but sadly it hasn’t been turned on in months
But TF2 has always had surfing?
TF2 always suffered since birth
I'm glad your still alive stickmaster
It’s good to see you
Makes sense why Engineer and heavy is on top, it's because everyone is so busy Bhopping that they end up being reckless and landing into a sentry or a fully rev up heavy at close range.
When everyone has high movement tech, the top tiers aren’t the ones who benefit the most. They’re the ones who do the best job of shutting the tech down.
I cannot BELIEVE nobody did lightspeed fatscout with this
1:00 POV of me trying to help the team
imagine if tf2 had accelerated back hopping
you know what else you can imagine..?
@@xynnmne
Accelerated back shots?
@@xynnmneno muscle man please
@@xynnmne imagine if ninja got a LOW TAPER FA-
insert DeSinc iconic quotes
Can't you technically still bhop, just not gaining any speed? I'm pretty sure people do it to keep their market garden crits while on the ground.
You can bhop and retain up to 20% over normal walk speed.
You can
Volvo just put a speed limit on it
You can. The market gardener trick isnt exclusive to this, its something trollgers have been doing for years now.
If I were a bad Demoman, I wouldn’t be here talkin’ to ya now would I?!
i imagine heavy also benefits from shortening his rollouts?
Like it's not a defining feature of him that he's bad at rolling out of spawn with teleporters and all, but now he needs no teleporter to replant himself after a death
Game Mechanic: Bunny Hop without the Bunny.
Gaben: And I took that personally ... I mean. uhh no.
1:33 Is he using Grouch’s Kunai rework? 😭
prop lag compensation and the usual melee hit reg buffoonery.
why are you sad
@@screamsinrussian5773 It's tears of joy
To be fair, spy mains already constantly B-hop as if it gives them some kind of advantage (it doesn't), so this is a buff to the average spy main's playstyle.
Not that it makes said playstyle any less ineffective, but.
6:26 meta meta whatever, damned be that failed spy.
His own teammate made him fail a stab :(
The epic frag never came to be...
When i saw the thumbnail i thought spy could stab while invisible
shounic uploading manifested comic 7
im surprised the reserve shooter wasnt mentioned in this vid - if theyre considered rocket jumping for the market gardner/air strike , wouldnt they be taking a lot more damage from it as well ?
funny how sniper was an oppressive class to the most oppressed class
It makes alot of sense that sentries would be really strong in this scenario given their entire purpose is specifically to stop people from overextending trying too hard to move forward without any team support.
i am exceedingly disappointed that you didn't make a plugin to force everyone to wear a severed Max head in this video.
The spy situation in this video is like those moments when you are playing pretend and you say "I can move very fast" and your sibling goes "I can do that too"
SHOUNIC THEY RELEASED A COMIC!
In my perspective the problem with bhops is that its kind of a barrier to entry that not everyone is signed up for since it isnt advertised as such a game
Jump around
Jump around
Jump up, jump up, and get down!
Even Fortress Forever had to balance bunny hopping out. You can't go too fast on foot - you have a soft speed cap like Quake.
i once put up with a server where it was modded back in and it was hell
i still have the server blacklisted to this day
so i went to check up on it and its no longer up
I'm pretty sure accelerated Bhopping still exists in some capacity in TF2. I did notice a small amount of increased speed if you time jumps on declines, but it would quickly falter.
There's a speed cap if you aren't blast jumping.
If you guys like BHopping, don't forget to check out Open Fortress! We could always use more players!
the dwarpen fortress
yeah im good
@@SuperBonk64 pussy
Yeah , Open Fortress made bhoping surprisingly fun .
*Ad Bhopping in the game*
"I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet."
Now just imagine swipez with this feature on
Instant perfect bhops is such a huge buff to spy if you are at least semi competent. This vid has such a bad example of the class in a mode like this.
"You see all this crazy kooky shit and mods in the server? I'm going to build sentries"
return to quake
This coming out a day after Zweek's video on airstrafing is kinda funny
phoon too much for Fortress 2
The thumbnail made me think it was going to be the weird decloak stab that Spy used to have.
the final tf2 comic dropped....
Engineer and Heavy are like crocodiles - they hunt while still with their jaws open
Even worse, if you do it backwards up a slope then players can skip the 70 star door.
That moment at 9:02 where the snipers where just abandoned by like half of their team is hilarious.
1:23 every starykrow spy video
7:40 the buildup and the face plant made me lol
TF2 with T|F2's level of movement is so cursed.
Imagine a 50vs50 Titanfall 2 server, like Team Fortress 2's Shounic Trenches, that would be awesome.
@davisdf3064 or a 50v50 Titan Brawl… dear good, imagine if one team stacks Legion or Scroch.
@@ChucktheSpicyChicken
That's where Tone, Ronin and Northstar comes in
They would still lose to Legion Scorch though, that's a menace that is on pair with 7 Heavies on the cart.
TFC movement. Titantfall is cringe
@@christiansmemefactory1513
Bait used to be believable (TFC's movement is awesome, but Titanfall is on another level)
For anyone curios as to the specific music played in the background, "Monumental" is played twice, ending at 7:12, then "High Place", both by "Banana Slug"
2:26 why is your phlog grey scale
I think it's a war paint
They work for Gray Mann
@blu3m0nkey phlogistonators can't have war paints applied, im pretty sure its just the lighting
He's on BLU team
@bugorgans Nickasmf replied: he's on Blu team, I think that sounds correct, do you?
I feel like if Valve didn't change it and instead took it as a game mechanic, weapons and class mechanics would be a lot more different. I can already see spy having a dash ability on knife weapons or just as character mechanic, bigger hitboxes for snipers to hit others more easily (possibly with a back item to launch snipers backwards so people aren't in their face) and demomen not being hurt by their own grenades and stickies. It could've been way more different, but I'm glad it got fixed.
Finally they balanced Sniper.
I mean you balanced Sniper.
Yes remove sniper from TF2
blud went from analyzing game mechanics to making game related social/mechanic experiments on a server scale. wow.
sooo its just "what if tf2 was quake with objectives"
are you the real gorno mahjong enthusiast
Well if the spy started bhopping good he would've caught that heavy.
This is just team fortress classic
good
Heavy mains keep winning every speed related experiment is like Turtle and the Hare race but turtle has an AA gun
At 6:40, it's funny but also ironic that TF2's meta can be explained in a way that the ecosystem of a jungle works. If there isn't equal predators to prey ratio for each animal, they are either elevated to the very top of the food chain immediately or go completely extinct.
I remember when not long ago players started abusing the cl_interp command on most classes. But specifically the Spy.
With Spy being able to do with the command and execute delayed stabs whilst constantly jumping. It would be also difficult to do so
but knowing some players were able to grasp this it would be too easy to catch up even though granted Spy being bad at this.
I always wondered why TF2, being a Source game, didn't have b-hopping. Now I know.
"the three classes that didn't need buffs"
(heavy)
0:04 Bhopping.
*I Told to Community and Players: Back then When Game Released: Game does have Bunny Hopping before valve removed from game in few weeks later.*
i just finished my break at work why do you have to post this now?!?
funny that even in a movement focused game, the stationary enemy is the bigger target
the more things change the more they stay the same
huh, fair enough
🐴
🍈
Yahamouse
:be me
:scrolling through by comments
:yahiamice walks in
"and at the bottom, Sniper"
sold me
what is the map at 1:54
Looks like Turbine but recolored, not sure.
Turbine but festive
winter turbine?
@@insertuncreativenamehere Its the Christmas version i think
The winter version of CTF Turbine.
Alright now we have the the knife the rounds pretty much over.
Engi Top Tier? Sniper bottom tier? I see no downsides. Legitimately, TF2 feels so sluggish nowadays since I've gotten into Quake. Bhopping is one of my favorite gameplay mechanics ever.
Yes remove sniper from TF2
No downsides other than Scout and Demoman being nerfed into the ground, drastically lowering the skill ceiling of the game. Soldier getting a huge buff that he really doesn’t need. Heavy becoming meta after Sniper and Spy are completely wiped off the face of the earth and his movement speed no longer being an issue. Pyro being buffed is okay since he’s a bit weak outside of the Dragons Fury in base Tf2 but given that it would now be significantly harder to stay out of his range, he would be incredibly annoying.
Essentially removing Demoman, Scout, Spy and Sniper would make the game incredibly boring after like two days.
I agree sniper needs a neff/rework but breaking the entire game in the process is just stupid.
If I were in control of balancing I’d remove all of Snipers hitscan weapons excluding the Sydney sleeper and replace them with projectile based weapons like Crossbows, Blowdart Rifles, whatever. I’d also remove the bodyshot damage increase for charging up the Sydney Sleeper but in replacement give it an AOE Jarate effect when fully charged. Probably have to reduce the size of the AOE by about 50% though. I think dealing 50 damage regardless if charge but being able to support your team would be a lot better than the current weapon and class in general.
That’s my take
@Kaliskot removing sniper from the game would fix the game
@@duarteribeiro1520 no it wouldn’t lmao.
Straight up deleting a class is a terrible idea.
Imagine if they had just deleted Spy instead of nerfing the Dead Ringer + Ambassador.
Sniper as a fundamental class is fine, it’s just hit rifles that need to be toned down. I’d settle for having bodyshot damage chargeup simple being removed as a substantial nerf.
Maybe also having headshots being changed to a base of 120 with a max damage windup of 360 as an extra but I’m not too sure about that.
If the former of those changes were to happen though, the hitmans heatmaker would need to be changed significantly because its bodyshot damage is one of its main downsides.
@Kaliskot adding sniper to the game in the first place was a terrible idea. There is no counterplay to the class. Stop coping.
I played on a server that was 24/7 bhop about six years ago. People who played with it a lot adapted to it and I didn’t think it was as bad as this video portrays it.
Spy and pyro become more ambush/hit and run classes than usual. It took good planning to be able to dash in and out of combat without dying. Pyro had a hard time finishing kills but he was like a mosquito, very annoying to fight and also he could deal damage without needing to slow down and aim.
Demo wasn’t as bad as here, but the server also unnerfed demo; airbursted stickies dealt huge damage and had the old splash radius. Once someone gets hit by a sticky the blast usually sends them off course from their bunny hop, often into a wall/object, killing their momentum and allowing the demo to easily finish them off. Demos also got wise to the fact that you don’t need to hide traps from players bhopping. Just carpeting an area of high traffic easily raked in kills.
Shounic didn’t touch on the monster that is an aggressive heavy, which I saw a lot. A heavy ramming into a player usually resulted in that player dying. Of course he’s strong defensively, but offensively his usage goes way up with bhopping.
Sniper is weaker with bhops, but honestly still good. The skill floor just goes way, way up and counter play is much more feasible. A good sniper is still good but a bad sniper is useless with bhopping.
The worst effects of bhopping were felt on teleporters and medics. Teleporters for obvious reasons, medics because it made survival much harder and ubers less useful. The server had several quake-esque DM maps that felt great with bhopping, but regular gamemodes lost the usual pacing of TF2 and the gameplay loop became bhopping to the objective, dealing damage, and then dying.
Last night: the math and code behind b-hopping and air-strafing
This morning: shounic patches b-hop air-strafing into TF2
Get out of my head!
7:06 my internet shut off for 30 minutes exactly when this was said. engineers are too powerful. i hate engineers