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Ever since I was a kid, time and time again my mother would tell me "Never, ever, assume anything." Rhaenyra's mistake was assuming that Boros would be easy to persuade and sending Lucerys as a messenger, despite him being a second son and no diplomatic training. It should have been Rhaenys who was sent.
You hit the nail on the head. In the book, sending Jace and Luke was justified by it being a sign of their Targeryan lineage, as “only Targeryans ride dragons”, but they only really needed to send Jace out as he is the heir. Sending Luke was an unnecessary risk that shows Rhaenyra has a degree of overconfidence when it comes to the allegiance of the lords.
@@Isuream6331. very good point. that's the whole idea of having an 'heir' and a 'spare' - so that if something befalls one, you've still got a back-up. So it was very poor planning to send them both out as messengers when you should have kept one safe at home.
The change to make this accidental, at least in my mind, sets Aemond up to be the most interesting character in Season 2. My guess is that he'll try to embrace this image of a villain that Luke's death has given him, only to struggle with guilt behind closed doors. Can't wait for next summer!
I did skip over Aemond's role intentionally in this one, I'm gonna be coming back around to his dragon-y mistake in a separate video. For sure, he's gonna wear this proudly in public and suffer in silence as he often does. Perhaps that's what he bonds with Alys over...
@@JoeMagician Aemond was going to cripple him and this is not an incident. He will not suffer from what he did. People romanticize him too much because actor “hot”. But Aemond's real face is not something pleasant.
@@user-zb3ds9zf1q Book Aemond, I agree. Show Aemond is very different though. There is a leak for season 2, beginning of Episode 1 potential spoiler!!! Aemond is at the beach with Vhagar. He talks to her and tells her that he doesn't blame her, that Alicent is still mad at him and that Otto refuses to talk to him. Spoiler End It's not much. But it could be true. If it is, then he seems to be bothered and does blame himself. I'm interested what they will do with him.
@@t-rexcellentreviews1663no. They weren’t in control on their dragons. Their dragons controlled them. Without dragons they would of been one of the extinct houses from Valaryria. They were a minor house who became a ruling house because of THE dragons. : “The idea that we control the dragons is an illusion. They're a power man should never have trifled with.” - and in this situation Arryx had enraged Vhaegar so she made a meal out of him. They are NOT in control. Some source material will do you good.
I also never understood why Lucerys was sent instead of Rhaenys. He was a child, and she was kin. He was brave tho, not wanting to disappoint his mother.
Because Rhaenyra underestimates people she hasn’t spoken with in years. She incorrectly assumes the Baratheons can be called to heel at a moments notice. It’s very clear she never expected this to be anything more than essentially a trip to the local quicky mart for half gallon of milk.
She hasn't fully realized that people are dishonorable and do not adhere to their word. She was naive thinking that he would be a stand-up guy and honor the oath that was taken.
@@madelinekimbro2440 she knows people are dishonorable I mean she had her uncle disappear her husband so she could remarry, don’t infantilize her. The issue here is that she doesn’t know Lord Borros at all because she doesn’t take the time to know or meet her subjects. She accurately describes his father Boremund when briefing Luke about Borros, but has no idea who Borros is as a person and certainly didn’t know he was illiterate and got annoyed when his Maesters had to read for him. She, just like her father, is a bad ruler, content to sit in her impressive castle and only speaking to her subjects when they come to her.
I mean it's very clearly mentioned even in this video...... Rhaenys was to stay at Dragonstone, incase the Greens attempted a sneak attack. They didn't know Vhaegar would be at Storm's End, otherwise she wouldnt have sent Luc there.
@@m.williams4971 if you’re a toddler that’s how it works, but an adult meant to inherit the highest power in the land while having a male rival in an incredibly sexist society should understand that’s not how it works. And yeah you do beg and make new promises with your vassals, otherwise you won’t be in their good graces and they’ll drop you like a hot potato when it’s convenient. When a king marries a daughter or a son to the kid of a high lord that is a beg for further assistance it’s a renew of the promise.
This makes it clear why so many of the Houses in the North still respect Ned Stark personally even though he’s been dead for so long. Especially the Mountain Clans who he went out of his way to visit. They’re probably not even considered true lords by the other northern houses but by visiting their liege lord affirms their position to themselves and to others. They’ll never be treated like anything but lords by their fellow vassals as lesser treatment would incur chastisement from the Starks. If the Starks neglected them they might’ve slowly turned out like the Vale savages.
Exactly, two hundred years later the northerners still talk about the time Queen Alysanne visited the north on her dragon. It turns a contract and transactional relationship into something personal, something real. That's how you build loyalty that endures adversity, and it's for sure something Viserys and his children lack.
@@JoeMagicianA personal example my mother's grand mother from her mother's side shook hands with Rajiv Gandhi( became PM later) the son of then Prime minister and grandson of India's first prime minister once. He died in 1991 she kept voting for the party till 2022 when after which she passed.
I really appreciate you laying out the subtext behind Borros' choice, it helps to show how Rhaenyra is not at this point in the story an astute politician. Too bad Viserys fumbled her education so badly. I thought having her present in the Small Council meetings was a good idea, if only he had thought to TEACH HER anything while they had the opportunity. Luke: Bye Mom, I'm gonna take the Firebird out for a spin, maybe get a bite.
There isn't really a point in which Rhaenyra becomes an "astute" politician. Viserys f'd her over so much, passing down to her a messy, complex situation he created through his own ineptitude without even properly preparing her for it (and to be fair, Rhaenyra herself didn't make it easy either but she was a literal teenager).
I feel foolish for never thinking of the Baratheons as a Valyrian house like the others. Felt they had “gone native” by becoming the new Stormlords and sliding in as Westerosi.
They did that over time for sure. Just this early on in the Targaryen dynasty, the open secret of the Baratheons being a bastard Targaryen house is much more a thing. By the time we get to Robert, they've pretty much let that one go.
@@m.williams4971 So far though (unless new books tell us), there’s been no real signs of the houses under Baratheton being disloyal or rebellious. I think that’s due to their early ties to the Targs, who specialize in roasted rebels back then, as well as Orys Baratheon beefing with the Dornish soon after the Conquest. The latter point may have convinced some lords that since they shared the same enemies, they could tolerate the Baratheons and later like them for their leadership and their usually charming personalities.
@@m.williams4971 They are no dragon riders but have the blood to try it - its just something Aegon, Maegor and Jaehaerys would've never allowed them and with every generation the blood keeps diluting. They literally descend from the Durrandons, a long ass line of Storm Kings native to Westeros. If anything they have more legitimacy and connection to Westeros than the Targaryens, who are descendants of some random political family of Valyria, who had no kings whatsover and actually descend from sheep herders. The only reason the Baratheons weren't more of a headache to the Targaryens is because they didn't want to, because they were loyal. Everytime a Baratheon tried to fuck things up and rebel the Targaryens had to concede something - like a princess to marry Lyonel Baratheon. The other time was, you know, Robert's Rebellion.
@@perseusveil9376they occupy the most hardcore castle on the continent, Storms End. A castle so mighty and powerful that Durran could shag the daughter of gods without them destroying his castle. The blood of the Durran is so strong, it overrides magical Targ blood.
It's extremely interesting to see how Martin has set up the whole Dance of the Dragons scenario to happen just so. He wrote everything in such a way so that if we look closely enough we'll be able to tease out the subtle reasons and causes for why everything happened in the way it did.
So true 😂, I've always thought it was dumb how all of rhaenyra's sons by harwin died, not because they died bit how they died. Rhaenyra sending lucerys to storms end by himself, Jacerys dragon getting shot out of the sky when the dragonseeds on their dragons didn't get shot down, the joffrey thinking he could ride his mother's dragon
@@sydnitheromantictaylor112 I mean, obviously, Martin wrote everything so that it would setup Rhaenyra's downfall, but it didn't come out of nowhere. He carefully laid the seeds from the beginning, with frequent succession issues going back to Aegon himself with Aenys and Maegor, then later with Jaeherys not having a direct heir.
I've always wondered about Baratheons claiming dragons...or rather not being allowed to. They had the blood, but not the legitimacy. And one can understand why Targaryens did this...imagine someone like Rogar Baratheon with a dragon. Rhaenys was a very senior member of the royal family, they weren't going to stop her children from claiming dragons.
For sure, understandable why they wouldn't let the Baratheons have dragons. But also doing that created problems for them down the road which lasted all the way until Robert smashed in Rhaegar's chest.
I absolutely LOVE your analysis here with Lord Borros, House Baratheon, and the larger political history going on here. You do such a great job dissecting the implications and unspoken context going on. Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, as the Targaryens' main claim to power is control of the dragons, they would need to be careful about who they hand those out to. Not saying the Baratheons aren't right to be a ticked off about the Velaryons getting dragon riders in the family while they don't, just pointing out how you don't exactly go handing out living nuclear weapons to anyone with a blood claim. Additionally, I actually enjoyed the way Lucerys' death was changed from an intentional murder on Aemond's part to a reckless impulse that quickly spiraled out of his control. Demanding an eye is one thing--it's harsh and viscous but it's not completely unreasonable by the standards of justice in Westeros. (Remember this is a society where being caught stealing means cutting off someone's hand, rapers get their dicks cut off, etc.) Aemond is capable of being reckless and hot-headed but he's not an idiot. He'd just secured Storm's End for Aegon's cause. A roomful of witnesses saw Luc declare he was ONLY there as a messenger. As we saw with Catelyn Stark in Renly Baratheon's camp, envoys are expected a certain degree of courtesy and protection, even if they're from the opposing side. After all, how could terms ever be negotiated if messengers aren't promised some degree of safe conduct? Even if Luc is a bastard, he's still kin through Rhaenyra and kinslaying is a big no-no in Westeros. Aemond wanted revenge, but I doubt he WANTED to start a war, which Luc's death now makes certain. Side note, but if Team Black had leaned into the fact that Team Green just seemingly murdered an innocent prince on a diplomatic mission completely UNPROVOKED, making them usurpers AND kinslayers besides. There is no way for the Hightowers to make that look good. Everyone in Storm's End that day saw Aemond threaten Luc and run off after him. Even if they tell the truth and say it was an accident, very few, if anyone, is going to believe it. TBC I'm not saying it would have made a TON more lords flock to their banners but it would have given Rhaenyra's cause a clear moral high ground. The high ground they lost by...well. SPOILERS. Once again, great video!
Another benefit of possibly sending Rhaenys, it was her loyalty the betrothals of Rhaenyra's two oldest sons bought. Only she could break or maintain those two pacts on the spot with minimal consultation without risking splitting the Black faction and lessened risk of futher insulting the Baratheons. Daemon and even Rhaenyra doing so could be really questionable. It would be Rhaenys giving up either her blood on the throne or Velaryon blood on the seat of Driftmark.
Great video I never thought of the baratheons being angry that they were denied their Valyrian (Targarygen) heritage and forced to adopt House Durrandon as a last resort
@@m.williams4971 To clarify, I'm not saying that the Targaryens were wrong to hoard their dragons and legitimacy away from their cousins. There is a large degree of wisdom of not sharing around your greatest strength to everyone who could have it if your goal is to dominate. However that policy, whatever its wisdom, created resentment among the Baratheons. There's a cost to the Targaryen's self-preservation of the ability to ride dragons, especially after they loosened it for Rhaenys and Rhaenyra's children in the jealousy it created. Which is mostly what I'm examining in the video, the perspective of the Baratheons and Borros in particular rather than analyzing if it was overall a good policy. It can still be the correct decision to keep the dragons to themselves while also the Baratheons being upset by it, those aren't mutually exclusive.
Rhaenyra definitely shouldve done royal progresses when she decided to live at dragonsyine and she should've had her older sons fostered in other kingdoms that way Jace and lucerys would've made friends in those kingdoms, that way those kingdoms would've automatically backed Rhaenyra, after all Robert baratheon andned stark became friends because they were fostered in the vale
Absolutely. Or at the very least she could have tried having a relationship with her half siblings. She’d still go to dragonstone but would ask her dad to send each of her siblings over for a while. Viserys would have loved it so Alicent wouldn’t get a say. She could have made herself into their cool older sister who they could stay with when king’s landing was annoying. She understood the pressures of being a royal, she had dragons, her husband was cool, and she isn’t as overbearing as Alicent. Even if Alicent starts trying to turn them against her, I don’t think it would really work. Initially Aegon thinks he’s a bad brother for trying to take Rheanyras throne and that’s even with all of Alicents influence. Honestly civil war aside they all would have been so much better off. Helena gets a sister and a more chill environment. Someone would notice that Aegon is off early and maybe send him to go be a menace with Deamon. And Aemond gets a friend in Luke and a better role model in Jace. Maybe he bonds a dragon while on dragonstone. Aemond doesn’t develop a chip on his shoulder because an adult notices the kids bullying each other and actually intervenes.
She also should've asked for a loan to the Iron Bank after the war started. It was an option even for nomadic-poor-defeated Stannis, but its like she doesn't know how the world works at any point lol
I notice how the Targaryens are more 'arrogant' in a way, they believed they have the divine right to rule and their dragons basically enabled them that right. I agree with you, Rhaenyra should've done royal progress when she was stationed as per 'birthright' at Dragonstone as well as let her 3 sons be fostered/educated in another house...then again Alicent kept 2 of her oldest sons (Aegon and Aemond) close to her, only Daeron was sent to the Hightowers.
@@perseusveil9376great insight! Here we are in S2 episode 5 & she has nothing to do. But if they would have put in more political moves like reaching out to the iron bank or working out relationships with other lords she would have more of a plot. She’s so boring this season, almost annoying (esp now that Daemon isn’t there for her to blame everything for).
I like that the show puts somewhat of an emphasis on Rhaenyra being such a horrible politician by antagonizing every single noble house she interacts with prior to becoming queen. Though I feel they could've made the politics of it a bit more explicit in episode 9, for instance, by having Larys be master of whisperers like in the book and keeping the blood oath instead of going for that scene with rhaenys
If I was Luke I’d see Vhagar and fly home. Syrax and Meleys are at Dragonstone and Caraxes is either at Harrenhall or Dragonstone. This means the Blacks can have their three largest dragons immediately pounce on Kings Landing at the start of the war whilst Aemond isn’t even there. This will lead to, most likely, Aegon’s capture and abdication. Even if it doesn’t, it looks really bad for the Greens, and the Royal Treasury wouldn’t have been quartered & spent by the Greens yet, so in addition to House Velaryon’s wealth, the Blacks would suddenly have a large economic advantage over the Greens.
Pouncing on Kings Landing would be a disaster 😂 Aegon has all the trappings of the King. He’s got the name, the sword, and the crown. While sitting on the throne and already assuming the role. People support that, and if you tell them to stop. They’d get mad. Those 3 would be forced into pulling a Danny and blasting the place.
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 ? Aegon lives in the Red Keep, and more importantly the Blacks have a network of allied Goldcloaks, Ratcatchers, etc, that they can pay off to infiltrate the keep to capture the Greens in a bloodless coup. If the infiltration fails, it’s not like the Greens can get to their dragons because the Blacks would simply station their own dragons in the Dragonpit, whilst the others rally loyalists for a siege of the Red Keep. Assuming the city does revolt against the Blacks in an overwhelming show of Green will (which doesn’t happen until Rhaenyra exacerbates an economic depression in the books) then the Blacks simply need to blowtorch the Red Keep itself. The main critique of Dany’s Mad Queen arc was that she only ever needed to burn the keep, the defence was that she was mad - the Blacks are not mad, and therefore wouldn’t burn the city.
@@DrGlynnWix I mean, Luke’s only contribution in this is, essentially, getting scared and running away. It’s the “master strategists” of Daemon and Corlys that’d think of the plan to take Kings Landing.
Lets be real, Luc -a classic dark hair, dark eyed Targaryen Bastard- probably looks the spitting Image of Orys "definately not a secret Targaryen Bastard" Baratheon, and who would be more aware of that than the Baratheon's of Storm's End that probably have a painting or 2 of him hanging on the walls somewhere. Emphasising the fact that Luc is a bastard Also Rhaenyra was really on her worst behaviour during her grand Tour of Westeros, I doubt she left a wonderful impression following her time in Storm's End
Considering what we know Aemond will later do when he meets Alys Rivers at Harrenhal, I think it’s pretty safe to say that he had no real intention of honouring his marriage pact with Lord Orys.
Aemond always wanted married his sister, time after know Alys Rivers, in middle times, specially in war times, very thing happend, his wife will die for a fever or in child birth an then he married with his widow sister, her brother almost died and the two children also can die in infancy, Alys could be his mistress
That is true, but that doesn’t change the fact that he quite publicly took a bastard women as his mistress, knowingly got her pregnant with his child, when he was already engaged to one of Lord Borros daughters, did he seriously think the Lord of Storm’s End wasn’t eventually going to find out about this very public affair and take issue with Aemond’s clear disrespect to his House?
@t-rexcellentreviews1663 Was that offensive? I'm pretty sure every noble house in every period of time publicly had bastards from lords. It he fulfilled his engagement and brought dragons to the Baratheon house I think lord baratheon would be fine with the arrangements. I think the real issue would be him leaving his wife to make dragon riding kids with a witch in a rival kingdom.
@@JohnDoe-vw4zf that’s true, lots of lords, kings and princes keep mistresses, but most of them understand that it is something you keep on the down low, unless your a truly shameless person like Aegon the Fourth, so yes, it was a clear sign of disrespect from Aemond, who made a marriage pact with one of the most powerful lords in the realm that his family claims to rightfully rule over by openly taking a bastard women from a supposedly traitorous house as his mistress and siring a child upon her when you are already engaged to that lords daughter as a major point of your alliance, which Aemond only agreed to get Borros on his family side for now, he had no real intention of actually going through with the match. Keep in mind that if the Greens won the war, it’s more than likely that not only Lord Borros, but Aemond’s mother and grandfather would have taken real issue with Aemond having a child with Alys, but then, keep in mind, for all of his loyalty to his mothers side of the family, Aemond is someone who operates under the mindset of as long as I have the largest dragon in Westeros under my command, I can do whatever I want without fear of consequences.
Daemon not using his “dead dragon lords” studies in Pentos to help acquire a dragon just sitting there riderless on Dragonstone for Raina is mind boggling?? She could have been riding Vermithor or Silverwing for as long as Aemond has had Vhagar?!! I mean really, they’re there in their backyard ffs
If you pay attention to F&B it’s obvious that it’s not as thought out as the main book series. This question always pops up in my head, like Ik they live in a big castle but don’t they see and interact with each other off screen?? You’d think by this age daemon would’ve trained her and be by her side as she claims her own dragon but NOPE. See this thing has to happen later on in the story so if I write this logical thing that thing I want to happen later can’t happen. And that’s why rhaena hasn’t claimed a dragon by now
@@youngveteran6368 I’m not a book reader that’s how I like it, don’t judge😊… I know in the finale Daemon mentions unclaimed dragons and the camera goes to Rhaena… but I’m purely looking from a show perspective, and its clearly shown Daemon is prepping for war but not having his daughter riding a dragon is lazy by George and by extension the writers of the show… again, 6 years had passed and Daemon knew that war was afoot and Rhaena still dragonless just bizarre… sorry just realised I’m repeating myself lol grab another drink 🍺
@@ccronk Daemon and Viserys were 16 or 17 when they claimed their dragons. Balerion and Carraxes. The reason why everyone was surprised by Aemond claiming Vhagar was because it was f#cking dangerous. Aemond got lucky by having Granny Vhagar being too tired and somewhat amused by Aemond to give him a shot. If Aemond tried to claim a younger dragon I doubt it would have worked.
@@zillagrilla315 so… what are you actually trying to say? V and D when they claimed their dragons weren’t in a luring conflict. I’m sayin war was imminent and Daemon had dragons on Dragonstone while Rhaena was still unable to claim any of them? Daemon seems to have read the dragon lord histories in Pentos hence his interaction with Vermithor… just don’t get why this 💩 wasn’t already sorted…
Just to add, was a little confusing why Vhagar was on Driftmark in the first place… she lost her rider so did Daemon just have a chat to her after Laena died?? 🤣🤔
I still don't get why Rhaenys wasn't sent to negotiate with the Baratheons. The Arryns are probably the safest so Luke could have been sent there and Jace could have been sent to the Starks. This would also mean that Jace and Luke could have been flying together until Luke reached the Eyrie, which would have made the journey safer.
I think it's the distance. Rhaenyra and her council erroneously assumed that because they have blood relation (via Rhaenys who was on the Blacks' side), it's not going to be an issue, plus it's the closest.
Rhaenerya set up Luce to fail if not end up dead. Why would she send him out during the beginning of a war without any real protection. His dragon is so small its practically useless.
I think she just really miscalculated. She expected a warm reception from family and sent a child to rubber stamp but it was really a diplomatic negotiation and like had nothing to barter. Plus no battles had happened yet so maybe there was hope that if didnt have to go to war yet. Also he was acting as an envoy. Aemond and vhagar being there is a clear threat as well.
To be fair up until now, everything had been done through envoys and messages. War wasn't a certainty at this point, with the hope being that if the Blacks or the Greens could garner enough political support from the great houses, the other side would back down. I would agree she set him up for failure though.
She set him up for failure long before this, but her assumption that he would not be harmed was a decent one. She could not have predicted that Aemond of all people would be in Storm's End right next to Dragonstone, which was her seat of power.
The sins of the father trope except now its the sins of the mother had Rhaenyra looked to forage stronger relations between certain powerful lords this could've been avoided.
House Baratheon and most of the old houses know what’s up with the Targaryens. Dragon war is a dreadful thing and can lead to the destruction of centuries of history and progress. I’m not surprised that many lords weren’t exactly thrilled to march their men and kin into dragon fire because they had pinky promised to help her.
Is it really a coincidence Aemond was also at Storm's End? He's a shrewd fellow, he or someone else could've deduced that Reanyra would reach out to powerful and nearby houses ASAP. They would want to beat her to the punch, as the Baratheons are a powerful house, so they send an unwed Targaryen and his flying nuke to get Batatheon support and possibly intercept the envoy of the Blacks. I think the only tragic coincidence was Lucerys being picked to go to Storm's End
It also shows that Luke put his desire to make his mother proud and prove himself OVER avoiding possible conflict. No one would blame him for Vhagar and Aemond, both who are seriously aggressive and very well could've been assumed to have attacked Luke on sight, getting their first and him bailing. He is a child and was sent under the assumption that it was a safe location. Or, heck, even if he had left and waited until Vhagar and Aemond left would've been a safer move. But he put his mother's wishes and tried to appear 'brave' over his own safety and logic.
Lovely stuff Joe as ever. Have been listening to your streams lately so felt like you weren’t away at all lol (and thanks to that Glidus guy on youtube now everytime Aemond one-eye pops on the screen i expect him to start speaking japanese, by the fucking gods)
I’m not normally one for these long lore videos but this was fantastic and I’m surprised I ended up watching the whole thing. I find fascinating the idea of Rhaenys going you Storms End though and her interaction with Aemond. Do you think Aemond would’ve still threatened her (not like Lucerys obviously but still at all)?
He may have tried, however it's likely the same as when he tried to step up to Daemon in the previous episode and backed down after seeing Daemon wasn't afraid of him. Rhaenys would be the same, and likely use her political skill and quick wit to make him look foolish for even trying. And Rhaenys obviously wouldn't be afraid of him either. Plus there's no real animosity between the two of them at this point like there is with Luke in particular. I'd be surprised if they had ever spoken to each other one on one. Would've most likely been a much more tame encounter, with Rhaenys either able to defuse or avoid that situation with Aemond and Borros.
Sending Luke to Storm's end was a terrible mistake. Why send a child with no bargaining skills to a man like Borros? They should've sent Rhaenys instead, since she is part Baratheon and definitely has a sharper tongue.
I agree they deffinitely should have sent Rhaenys it would have mad much more sense. It was quick trip too so Rhaenys would have been back quickly to Dragon stone in case of an attack. She has far more political skills and experience than Lucarys. If I were lucarys I would have gotten right back on my dragon and turned around back to Dargon Stone the moment I saw Vaegar specially know who rides Vaegar and that he took his eye yeah um turn around abort mission!
Rhaenyra had every opportunity to prepare herself for the throne. She had known for years that she was the heir but failed to get her priorities in order. Jumping from one guy to the next, she put her own desires first to the point of being forced to marry Laenor in the end who wasn't interested in having sex with her leading to her bastards and disgrace among the realm. Then at the last minute, when the greens are about to take the throne, she decides to step up to the challenge. Too little, too late. She was still a likeable character and it's easy to sympathize with her but she made some bad decisions.
I think you’re misinterpreting how the Baratheons must feel about their legacy. It might be the case that a few of them do see themselves denied their heritage as descendants of dragon lords but I don’t think they see themselves as usurpers to the legacy of the Storm lords. They didn’t take the legacy of the Durrandons, they wed into* it. They are in all aspects a continuation and inheritor of the Durrandon legacy, Orys ensured that was the case as I’m sure Argella did. Sure during the younger days of their dynasty some probably saw themselves as also inheritors of the blood of the dragon, but their inheritance of the Durrandons legacy should not be seen as an adoption or usurpation, they ARE for all effects and purposes the Durrandons. I truly don’t think the Baratheons are so enthralled with their legacy as a bastard line of the dragon as has been presented. Sure some of them were grasping, and they were uniquely aware of their relation to the Targaryens, but they often were also very amicable and supporting of the Targaryens. They’re just mercurial by nature, George writes the houses with certain traits and the blood of Durrans Godsgrief is always characterized as wrathful and arrogant. It just seems to be a jump to claim a lot of that characterization has been some resentment from being founded by a bastard, surely Catelyn Stark would think so, but I think that misses the point of their familial nature of being ‘storms’.
I would say this early on with Aegon and Orys in living memory that feeling and denial of being Valyrians is far more pronounced than it would be later. I wouldn't underestimate how much the denial of identity and personal truth can linger like a poison in the soul, it's a very pronounced theme in the books from Jon to Tyrion to Samwell and etc. Jaehaerys commented that it was an open secret within their two families that they are kin. It just wasn't spoken about because of the obvious problems and resentments that created. Rogar, Borros' grandfather, especially didn't see himself as less than his cousins more as an equal and tried to acquire dragon riders by marrying Dowager Queen Alyssa Velaryon hoping for dragon lord children as well as the political benefits at court. By the time we get to the main series I agree the feelings of annoyance at coming from a bastard founder is greatly diminished and they pretty much have entirely embraced their Durrandon roots as their identity. I doubt Robert ever thought of himself as Valyrian. However, that core animosity never really went away, less being about bastards and more the idea that they are lesser than the Targaryens when the Baratheons know they are far closer to equals. .
They should have sent Rheanys she is kin and even Aemond would hesitate to kill her. Sending Luke was a mistake his birth is in question and he has no standing reputation and he really brings nothing to the table, the stags have always been impressed by strength and Luke scrabbling way from Aemond really sends a bad message. Rheanys could have reminded him about their blood connections and would not have flinched from Aemond either. Not sure even that would have swung the bratheons over the blacks since Rhaenyra really screwed herself politically, she was rude and dismissive when she was in their halls. and I dont think she has since came to visit or tried to get their loyalty
Joe is back!!!!!!! Yayyy! This was a great video. I talk within the community about how house Baratheon is a Vader house of house Targaryen like house blackfyre and for the most part house Velaryon.
Dear Mr. Joe Magician, please, pretty please don’t get burned out and give us your absolutely stellar interpretations. Looking forward to this season and to your views on the signs and foreshadowing they love to hide all over the place.
Did George actually put a name to who Otto Hightower had a child with? I don't remember if he did or not. I've heard a theory that he had Alicent with one of the wild child daughters of the Old King (who then given gold and a ship to Essos). If true, it makes it an even deeper Family civil war. If true, the Mother of Alicent and the Grandmother of Rhenera (sorry for the spelling) were sisters and rivals that passed that onto their heirs.
yea I never got Cats problem Rickon and Brandon was assumed dead and if Robb died whiteout true born children who else would take winterfell? Jon would have been the only male whit Stark blood left, he would have been automatically a stark, bastards are often legitimized if there are no true borns left. it makes sense.
Robb: "If i die without kids then Jon Snow is my heir" Cat: "But then he would be a threat to your kids!!" Lady did you not hear the first part of that sentence 🤨
I literally tweeted out RUN LUKE RUN ala Obi Wan to Luke in Star Wars when I saw the dread chonk (my favorite nickname for granny Vhagar). He should have noped out of there and that’s the real tragedy. If he had been a few years older he would have had the maturity to realize OH NO This will not end well and just promptly leave in order to tell Mommy that the greens beat him to the Baratheons. But he was an eager to please 14 year old who wanted to prove himself to the mother he so admired and well…dead
This is crazy to learn I never knew and now it makes it feel ironic and makes sense that later a Baratheon wipes out all targeryans and takes the throne, crazeeee
35:19 Whoa whoa whoa, she said that after Rogar helped kill her mom and did so to protect any other prospective wives who may be abused during childbirth. She did not care for them at all
Borros: "This is bullshit! We're part Targaryen! Why aren't we getting equal treament?!" Fast forward to soon to be king Bobby B: *LAUGHS IN WARHAMMER*
At my threadless shop joemagician.threadless.com/, from now until 11/22 there's $15 t-shirts on sale and free shipping on orders over $99. AND from 11/22 to 12/4 there will be Black Friday and Cyber Monday sales running with $12.50 tees and sales on everything else. A great time to pick up some Joe Magical merch on the cheap. May be doing some giveaways in the future for it as well from the next video WHICH WILL NOT TAKE A YEAR TO RELEASE THIS TIME.
Ever since I was a kid, time and time again my mother would tell me "Never, ever, assume anything." Rhaenyra's mistake was assuming that Boros would be easy to persuade and sending Lucerys as a messenger, despite him being a second son and no diplomatic training. It should have been Rhaenys who was sent.
You hit the nail on the head. In the book, sending Jace and Luke was justified by it being a sign of their Targeryan lineage, as “only Targeryans ride dragons”, but they only really needed to send Jace out as he is the heir. Sending Luke was an unnecessary risk that shows Rhaenyra has a degree of overconfidence when it comes to the allegiance of the lords.
Great point!
@@Isuream6331. very good point. that's the whole idea of having an 'heir' and a 'spare' - so that if something befalls one, you've still got a back-up. So it was very poor planning to send them both out as messengers when you should have kept one safe at home.
Should have at least sent Baela with him. Doubt it would have made a difference though
@@Isuream6331rhaenyra simply didn’t know WTF she was talking about or what she was doing
The change to make this accidental, at least in my mind, sets Aemond up to be the most interesting character in Season 2. My guess is that he'll try to embrace this image of a villain that Luke's death has given him, only to struggle with guilt behind closed doors. Can't wait for next summer!
I did skip over Aemond's role intentionally in this one, I'm gonna be coming back around to his dragon-y mistake in a separate video. For sure, he's gonna wear this proudly in public and suffer in silence as he often does. Perhaps that's what he bonds with Alys over...
@@JoeMagician Aemond was going to cripple him and this is not an incident. He will not suffer from what he did. People romanticize him too much because actor “hot”. But Aemond's real face is not something pleasant.
@@user-zb3ds9zf1q Book Aemond, I agree. Show Aemond is very different though. There is a leak for season 2, beginning of Episode 1
potential spoiler!!!
Aemond is at the beach with Vhagar. He talks to her and tells her that he doesn't blame her, that Alicent is still mad at him and that Otto refuses to talk to him.
Spoiler End
It's not much. But it could be true. If it is, then he seems to be bothered and does blame himself.
I'm interested what they will do with him.
@@danika9411I mean, I don’t really see how he can blame the dragon, he was the one who was in control of the situation.
@@t-rexcellentreviews1663no. They weren’t in control on their dragons. Their dragons controlled them. Without dragons they would of been one of the extinct houses from Valaryria. They were a minor house who became a ruling house because of THE dragons. : “The idea that we control the dragons is an illusion. They're a power man should never have trifled with.” - and in this situation Arryx had enraged Vhaegar so she made a meal out of him. They are NOT in control. Some source material will do you good.
I also never understood why Lucerys was sent instead of Rhaenys. He was a child, and she was kin. He was brave tho, not wanting to disappoint his mother.
Because Rhaenyra underestimates people she hasn’t spoken with in years. She incorrectly assumes the Baratheons can be called to heel at a moments notice. It’s very clear she never expected this to be anything more than essentially a trip to the local quicky mart for half gallon of milk.
She hasn't fully realized that people are dishonorable and do not adhere to their word. She was naive thinking that he would be a stand-up guy and honor the oath that was taken.
@@madelinekimbro2440 she knows people are dishonorable I mean she had her uncle disappear her husband so she could remarry, don’t infantilize her. The issue here is that she doesn’t know Lord Borros at all because she doesn’t take the time to know or meet her subjects. She accurately describes his father Boremund when briefing Luke about Borros, but has no idea who Borros is as a person and certainly didn’t know he was illiterate and got annoyed when his Maesters had to read for him.
She, just like her father, is a bad ruler, content to sit in her impressive castle and only speaking to her subjects when they come to her.
I mean it's very clearly mentioned even in this video...... Rhaenys was to stay at Dragonstone, incase the Greens attempted a sneak attack. They didn't know Vhaegar would be at Storm's End, otherwise she wouldnt have sent Luc there.
@@m.williams4971 if you’re a toddler that’s how it works, but an adult meant to inherit the highest power in the land while having a male rival in an incredibly sexist society should understand that’s not how it works.
And yeah you do beg and make new promises with your vassals, otherwise you won’t be in their good graces and they’ll drop you like a hot potato when it’s convenient. When a king marries a daughter or a son to the kid of a high lord that is a beg for further assistance it’s a renew of the promise.
This makes it clear why so many of the Houses in the North still respect Ned Stark personally even though he’s been dead for so long. Especially the Mountain Clans who he went out of his way to visit. They’re probably not even considered true lords by the other northern houses but by visiting their liege lord affirms their position to themselves and to others. They’ll never be treated like anything but lords by their fellow vassals as lesser treatment would incur chastisement from the Starks. If the Starks neglected them they might’ve slowly turned out like the Vale savages.
Exactly, two hundred years later the northerners still talk about the time Queen Alysanne visited the north on her dragon. It turns a contract and transactional relationship into something personal, something real. That's how you build loyalty that endures adversity, and it's for sure something Viserys and his children lack.
@@JoeMagicianA personal example my mother's grand mother from her mother's side shook hands with Rajiv Gandhi( became PM later) the son of then Prime minister and grandson of India's first prime minister once. He died in 1991 she kept voting for the party till 2022 when after which she passed.
I really appreciate you laying out the subtext behind Borros' choice, it helps to show how Rhaenyra is not at this point in the story an astute politician. Too bad Viserys fumbled her education so badly. I thought having her present in the Small Council meetings was a good idea, if only he had thought to TEACH HER anything while they had the opportunity.
Luke: Bye Mom, I'm gonna take the Firebird out for a spin, maybe get a bite.
Honestly, Viserys probably wasn’t taught much either. He just sort of… lucked into being king because he is a man
There isn't really a point in which Rhaenyra becomes an "astute" politician. Viserys f'd her over so much, passing down to her a messy, complex situation he created through his own ineptitude without even properly preparing her for it (and to be fair, Rhaenyra herself didn't make it easy either but she was a literal teenager).
I dunno. Wasn’t Rhaenyra really close to Boros’ father? She was kind of rude when she left the bethrothel tour at his door step.
If you can call it luck for him to be made a king when he really just wanted to be a historian. @@Isuream6331
He became the bite
I feel foolish for never thinking of the Baratheons as a Valyrian house like the others. Felt they had “gone native” by becoming the new Stormlords and sliding in as Westerosi.
They did that over time for sure. Just this early on in the Targaryen dynasty, the open secret of the Baratheons being a bastard Targaryen house is much more a thing. By the time we get to Robert, they've pretty much let that one go.
@@JoeMagicianthat is true, but something else to remember is that Robert and his brothers are the grandsons of a Targaryen grandmother.
@@m.williams4971 So far though (unless new books tell us), there’s been no real signs of the houses under Baratheton being disloyal or rebellious. I think that’s due to their early ties to the Targs, who specialize in roasted rebels back then, as well as Orys Baratheon beefing with the Dornish soon after the Conquest. The latter point may have convinced some lords that since they shared the same enemies, they could tolerate the Baratheons and later like them for their leadership and their usually charming personalities.
@@m.williams4971 They are no dragon riders but have the blood to try it - its just something Aegon, Maegor and Jaehaerys would've never allowed them and with every generation the blood keeps diluting. They literally descend from the Durrandons, a long ass line of Storm Kings native to Westeros. If anything they have more legitimacy and connection to Westeros than the Targaryens, who are descendants of some random political family of Valyria, who had no kings whatsover and actually descend from sheep herders. The only reason the Baratheons weren't more of a headache to the Targaryens is because they didn't want to, because they were loyal. Everytime a Baratheon tried to fuck things up and rebel the Targaryens had to concede something - like a princess to marry Lyonel Baratheon. The other time was, you know, Robert's Rebellion.
@@perseusveil9376they occupy the most hardcore castle on the continent, Storms End. A castle so mighty and powerful that Durran could shag the daughter of gods without them destroying his castle.
The blood of the Durran is so strong, it overrides magical Targ blood.
It's extremely interesting to see how Martin has set up the whole Dance of the Dragons scenario to happen just so. He wrote everything in such a way so that if we look closely enough we'll be able to tease out the subtle reasons and causes for why everything happened in the way it did.
So true 😂, I've always thought it was dumb how all of rhaenyra's sons by harwin died, not because they died bit how they died. Rhaenyra sending lucerys to storms end by himself, Jacerys dragon getting shot out of the sky when the dragonseeds on their dragons didn't get shot down, the joffrey thinking he could ride his mother's dragon
@@sydnitheromantictaylor112spoilers alerte bro, not everyone read the books 😅😭
Well said!
@@lauriane2784 Yeah I read the ASOIAF books after the show, but now I've read Fire and Blood before the show, so I know what you mean.
@@sydnitheromantictaylor112 I mean, obviously, Martin wrote everything so that it would setup Rhaenyra's downfall, but it didn't come out of nowhere. He carefully laid the seeds from the beginning, with frequent succession issues going back to Aegon himself with Aenys and Maegor, then later with Jaeherys not having a direct heir.
I've always wondered about Baratheons claiming dragons...or rather not being allowed to. They had the blood, but not the legitimacy. And one can understand why Targaryens did this...imagine someone like Rogar Baratheon with a dragon. Rhaenys was a very senior member of the royal family, they weren't going to stop her children from claiming dragons.
For sure, understandable why they wouldn't let the Baratheons have dragons. But also doing that created problems for them down the road which lasted all the way until Robert smashed in Rhaegar's chest.
Enough talk, how do we get STANNIS one!
@@theadversary Oooooh, Stannis probably COULD claim one! His grandmother was Targaryan after all!
@@Isuream6331I dunno, things didn’t go well with lil Proudwing, not sure if he could raise a dragon
@@jlshel42Bro💀💀
I absolutely LOVE your analysis here with Lord Borros, House Baratheon, and the larger political history going on here. You do such a great job dissecting the implications and unspoken context going on.
Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, as the Targaryens' main claim to power is control of the dragons, they would need to be careful about who they hand those out to. Not saying the Baratheons aren't right to be a ticked off about the Velaryons getting dragon riders in the family while they don't, just pointing out how you don't exactly go handing out living nuclear weapons to anyone with a blood claim.
Additionally, I actually enjoyed the way Lucerys' death was changed from an intentional murder on Aemond's part to a reckless impulse that quickly spiraled out of his control. Demanding an eye is one thing--it's harsh and viscous but it's not completely unreasonable by the standards of justice in Westeros. (Remember this is a society where being caught stealing means cutting off someone's hand, rapers get their dicks cut off, etc.)
Aemond is capable of being reckless and hot-headed but he's not an idiot. He'd just secured Storm's End for Aegon's cause. A roomful of witnesses saw Luc declare he was ONLY there as a messenger. As we saw with Catelyn Stark in Renly Baratheon's camp, envoys are expected a certain degree of courtesy and protection, even if they're from the opposing side. After all, how could terms ever be negotiated if messengers aren't promised some degree of safe conduct? Even if Luc is a bastard, he's still kin through Rhaenyra and kinslaying is a big no-no in Westeros. Aemond wanted revenge, but I doubt he WANTED to start a war, which Luc's death now makes certain.
Side note, but if Team Black had leaned into the fact that Team Green just seemingly murdered an innocent prince on a diplomatic mission completely UNPROVOKED, making them usurpers AND kinslayers besides. There is no way for the Hightowers to make that look good. Everyone in Storm's End that day saw Aemond threaten Luc and run off after him. Even if they tell the truth and say it was an accident, very few, if anyone, is going to believe it.
TBC I'm not saying it would have made a TON more lords flock to their banners but it would have given Rhaenyra's cause a clear moral high ground. The high ground they lost by...well. SPOILERS.
Once again, great video!
Another benefit of possibly sending Rhaenys, it was her loyalty the betrothals of Rhaenyra's two oldest sons bought. Only she could break or maintain those two pacts on the spot with minimal consultation without risking splitting the Black faction and lessened risk of futher insulting the Baratheons. Daemon and even Rhaenyra doing so could be really questionable. It would be Rhaenys giving up either her blood on the throne or Velaryon blood on the seat of Driftmark.
Great video I never thought of the baratheons being angry that they were denied their Valyrian (Targarygen) heritage and forced to adopt House Durrandon as a last resort
@@m.williams4971 To clarify, I'm not saying that the Targaryens were wrong to hoard their dragons and legitimacy away from their cousins. There is a large degree of wisdom of not sharing around your greatest strength to everyone who could have it if your goal is to dominate. However that policy, whatever its wisdom, created resentment among the Baratheons. There's a cost to the Targaryen's self-preservation of the ability to ride dragons, especially after they loosened it for Rhaenys and Rhaenyra's children in the jealousy it created. Which is mostly what I'm examining in the video, the perspective of the Baratheons and Borros in particular rather than analyzing if it was overall a good policy. It can still be the correct decision to keep the dragons to themselves while also the Baratheons being upset by it, those aren't mutually exclusive.
Rhaenyra definitely shouldve done royal progresses when she decided to live at dragonsyine and she should've had her older sons fostered in other kingdoms that way Jace and lucerys would've made friends in those kingdoms, that way those kingdoms would've automatically backed Rhaenyra, after all Robert baratheon andned stark became friends because they were fostered in the vale
Absolutely. Or at the very least she could have tried having a relationship with her half siblings. She’d still go to dragonstone but would ask her dad to send each of her siblings over for a while. Viserys would have loved it so Alicent wouldn’t get a say. She could have made herself into their cool older sister who they could stay with when king’s landing was annoying. She understood the pressures of being a royal, she had dragons, her husband was cool, and she isn’t as overbearing as Alicent. Even if Alicent starts trying to turn them against her, I don’t think it would really work. Initially Aegon thinks he’s a bad brother for trying to take Rheanyras throne and that’s even with all of Alicents influence. Honestly civil war aside they all would have been so much better off. Helena gets a sister and a more chill environment. Someone would notice that Aegon is off early and maybe send him to go be a menace with Deamon. And Aemond gets a friend in Luke and a better role model in Jace. Maybe he bonds a dragon while on dragonstone. Aemond doesn’t develop a chip on his shoulder because an adult notices the kids bullying each other and actually intervenes.
She also should've asked for a loan to the Iron Bank after the war started. It was an option even for nomadic-poor-defeated Stannis, but its like she doesn't know how the world works at any point lol
I notice how the Targaryens are more 'arrogant' in a way, they believed they have the divine right to rule and their dragons basically enabled them that right. I agree with you, Rhaenyra should've done royal progress when she was stationed as per 'birthright' at Dragonstone as well as let her 3 sons be fostered/educated in another house...then again Alicent kept 2 of her oldest sons (Aegon and Aemond) close to her, only Daeron was sent to the Hightowers.
@@perseusveil9376great insight! Here we are in S2 episode 5 & she has nothing to do. But if they would have put in more political moves like reaching out to the iron bank or working out relationships with other lords she would have more of a plot. She’s so boring this season, almost annoying (esp now that Daemon isn’t there for her to blame everything for).
@@Mayday9112 So true. TB is so absolutely boring they make watching the episodes so painful. And now its even worse with Aegon incapacitated.
I like that the show puts somewhat of an emphasis on Rhaenyra being such a horrible politician by antagonizing every single noble house she interacts with prior to becoming queen. Though I feel they could've made the politics of it a bit more explicit in episode 9, for instance, by having Larys be master of whisperers like in the book and keeping the blood oath instead of going for that scene with rhaenys
Most people didn't care because she was funny about it. But yes this was a critical reason as to why anyone was able to urusp her to begin with.
His mom really caused a lot of problems by being such a brat during the royal tour.
@@m.williams4971 The only one that heppens in the whole series. Obviously
If I was Luke I’d see Vhagar and fly home. Syrax and Meleys are at Dragonstone and Caraxes is either at Harrenhall or Dragonstone. This means the Blacks can have their three largest dragons immediately pounce on Kings Landing at the start of the war whilst Aemond isn’t even there.
This will lead to, most likely, Aegon’s capture and abdication. Even if it doesn’t, it looks really bad for the Greens, and the Royal Treasury wouldn’t have been quartered & spent by the Greens yet, so in addition to House Velaryon’s wealth, the Blacks would suddenly have a large economic advantage over the Greens.
Right on. Perhaps if they hadn't sent a 10 year old to do a strategist/politician's job, that might have been thought of.
@@DrGlynnWix I think he was 11
Pouncing on Kings Landing would be a disaster 😂 Aegon has all the trappings of the King. He’s got the name, the sword, and the crown. While sitting on the throne and already assuming the role.
People support that, and if you tell them to stop. They’d get mad. Those 3 would be forced into pulling a Danny and blasting the place.
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 ?
Aegon lives in the Red Keep, and more importantly the Blacks have a network of allied Goldcloaks, Ratcatchers, etc, that they can pay off to infiltrate the keep to capture the Greens in a bloodless coup.
If the infiltration fails, it’s not like the Greens can get to their dragons because the Blacks would simply station their own dragons in the Dragonpit, whilst the others rally loyalists for a siege of the Red Keep.
Assuming the city does revolt against the Blacks in an overwhelming show of Green will (which doesn’t happen until Rhaenyra exacerbates an economic depression in the books) then the Blacks simply need to blowtorch the Red Keep itself. The main critique of Dany’s Mad Queen arc was that she only ever needed to burn the keep, the defence was that she was mad - the Blacks are not mad, and therefore wouldn’t burn the city.
@@DrGlynnWix I mean, Luke’s only contribution in this is, essentially, getting scared and running away. It’s the “master strategists” of Daemon and Corlys that’d think of the plan to take Kings Landing.
Lets be real, Luc -a classic dark hair, dark eyed Targaryen Bastard- probably looks the spitting Image of Orys "definately not a secret Targaryen Bastard" Baratheon, and who would be more aware of that than the Baratheon's of Storm's End that probably have a painting or 2 of him hanging on the walls somewhere. Emphasising the fact that Luc is a bastard
Also Rhaenyra was really on her worst behaviour during her grand Tour of Westeros, I doubt she left a wonderful impression following her time in Storm's End
So happy that you’re back 😭❤️
Me too!
@@JoeMagicianindeed! welcome back mate!
Same
Considering what we know Aemond will later do when he meets Alys Rivers at Harrenhal, I think it’s pretty safe to say that he had no real intention of honouring his marriage pact with Lord Orys.
Aemond always wanted married his sister, time after know Alys Rivers, in middle times, specially in war times, very thing happend, his wife will die for a fever or in child birth an then he married with his widow sister, her brother almost died and the two children also can die in infancy, Alys could be his mistress
That is true, but that doesn’t change the fact that he quite publicly took a bastard women as his mistress, knowingly got her pregnant with his child, when he was already engaged to one of Lord Borros daughters, did he seriously think the Lord of Storm’s End wasn’t eventually going to find out about this very public affair and take issue with Aemond’s clear disrespect to his House?
@t-rexcellentreviews1663 Was that offensive? I'm pretty sure every noble house in every period of time publicly had bastards from lords. It he fulfilled his engagement and brought dragons to the Baratheon house I think lord baratheon would be fine with the arrangements. I think the real issue would be him leaving his wife to make dragon riding kids with a witch in a rival kingdom.
@@t-rexcellentreviews1663That's not very unique. He could've still married the Baratheon girl.
@@JohnDoe-vw4zf that’s true, lots of lords, kings and princes keep mistresses, but most of them understand that it is something you keep on the down low, unless your a truly shameless person like Aegon the Fourth, so yes, it was a clear sign of disrespect from Aemond, who made a marriage pact with one of the most powerful lords in the realm that his family claims to rightfully rule over by openly taking a bastard women from a supposedly traitorous house as his mistress and siring a child upon her when you are already engaged to that lords daughter as a major point of your alliance, which Aemond only agreed to get Borros on his family side for now, he had no real intention of actually going through with the match.
Keep in mind that if the Greens won the war, it’s more than likely that not only Lord Borros, but Aemond’s mother and grandfather would have taken real issue with Aemond having a child with Alys, but then, keep in mind, for all of his loyalty to his mothers side of the family, Aemond is someone who operates under the mindset of as long as I have the largest dragon in Westeros under my command, I can do whatever I want without fear of consequences.
Daemon not using his “dead dragon lords” studies in Pentos to help acquire a dragon just sitting there riderless on Dragonstone for Raina is mind boggling?? She could have been riding Vermithor or Silverwing for as long as Aemond has had Vhagar?!! I mean really, they’re there in their backyard ffs
If you pay attention to F&B it’s obvious that it’s not as thought out as the main book series. This question always pops up in my head, like Ik they live in a big castle but don’t they see and interact with each other off screen?? You’d think by this age daemon would’ve trained her and be by her side as she claims her own dragon but NOPE. See this thing has to happen later on in the story so if I write this logical thing that thing I want to happen later can’t happen. And that’s why rhaena hasn’t claimed a dragon by now
@@youngveteran6368 I’m not a book reader that’s how I like it, don’t judge😊… I know in the finale Daemon mentions unclaimed dragons and the camera goes to Rhaena… but I’m purely looking from a show perspective, and its clearly shown Daemon is prepping for war but not having his daughter riding a dragon is lazy by George and by extension the writers of the show… again, 6 years had passed and Daemon knew that war was afoot and Rhaena still dragonless just bizarre… sorry just realised I’m repeating myself lol grab another drink 🍺
@@ccronk Daemon and Viserys were 16 or 17 when they claimed their dragons. Balerion and Carraxes. The reason why everyone was surprised by Aemond claiming Vhagar was because it was f#cking dangerous. Aemond got lucky by having Granny Vhagar being too tired and somewhat amused by Aemond to give him a shot. If Aemond tried to claim a younger dragon I doubt it would have worked.
@@zillagrilla315 so… what are you actually trying to say? V and D when they claimed their dragons weren’t in a luring conflict. I’m sayin war was imminent and Daemon had dragons on Dragonstone while Rhaena was still unable to claim any of them? Daemon seems to have read the dragon lord histories in Pentos hence his interaction with Vermithor… just don’t get why this 💩 wasn’t already sorted…
Just to add, was a little confusing why Vhagar was on Driftmark in the first place… she lost her rider so did Daemon just have a chat to her after Laena died?? 🤣🤔
I still don't get why Rhaenys wasn't sent to negotiate with the Baratheons. The Arryns are probably the safest so Luke could have been sent there and Jace could have been sent to the Starks. This would also mean that Jace and Luke could have been flying together until Luke reached the Eyrie, which would have made the journey safer.
I think it's the distance. Rhaenyra and her council erroneously assumed that because they have blood relation (via Rhaenys who was on the Blacks' side), it's not going to be an issue, plus it's the closest.
Rhaenerya set up Luce to fail if not end up dead. Why would she send him out during the beginning of a war without any real protection. His dragon is so small its practically useless.
I think she just really miscalculated. She expected a warm reception from family and sent a child to rubber stamp but it was really a diplomatic negotiation and like had nothing to barter. Plus no battles had happened yet so maybe there was hope that if didnt have to go to war yet. Also he was acting as an envoy. Aemond and vhagar being there is a clear threat as well.
To be fair up until now, everything had been done through envoys and messages. War wasn't a certainty at this point, with the hope being that if the Blacks or the Greens could garner enough political support from the great houses, the other side would back down. I would agree she set him up for failure though.
She set him up for failure long before this, but her assumption that he would not be harmed was a decent one. She could not have predicted that Aemond of all people would be in Storm's End right next to Dragonstone, which was her seat of power.
The sins of the father trope except now its the sins of the mother had Rhaenyra looked to forage stronger relations between certain powerful lords this could've been avoided.
Rhaenyra is a bad person and a bad leader
Forge, not forage. You're building stronger relations, not finding them
I love the way three of the Four Storms are giving Aemond the Evil Eye.
House Baratheon and most of the old houses know what’s up with the Targaryens.
Dragon war is a dreadful thing and can lead to the destruction of centuries of history and progress. I’m not surprised that many lords weren’t exactly thrilled to march their men and kin into dragon fire because they had pinky promised to help her.
"Generations of anger and resentment" so all it needed was a spark... Hey Gavrilo, isn't that the Archduke's motorcade coming down the street?
Is it really a coincidence Aemond was also at Storm's End? He's a shrewd fellow, he or someone else could've deduced that Reanyra would reach out to powerful and nearby houses ASAP. They would want to beat her to the punch, as the Baratheons are a powerful house, so they send an unwed Targaryen and his flying nuke to get Batatheon support and possibly intercept the envoy of the Blacks. I think the only tragic coincidence was Lucerys being picked to go to Storm's End
Great video. You clearly and engagingly broke down this layered motivation.
I appreciate that!
I truly enjoyed this breakdown from Boros' point of view. Happy you're back! 😊🎉
This video was amazingly done and has such strong points now I understand Boros's actions 😮
Raise the banners.... Joe Magician has returned!!
Thank you for returning! Missed your videos. Hope you’re well
It also shows that Luke put his desire to make his mother proud and prove himself OVER avoiding possible conflict. No one would blame him for Vhagar and Aemond, both who are seriously aggressive and very well could've been assumed to have attacked Luke on sight, getting their first and him bailing. He is a child and was sent under the assumption that it was a safe location. Or, heck, even if he had left and waited until Vhagar and Aemond left would've been a safer move. But he put his mother's wishes and tried to appear 'brave' over his own safety and logic.
MAGICAL!
Great to have you back Matt! 🤍🔥
Lovely stuff Joe as ever. Have been listening to your streams lately so felt like you weren’t away at all lol
(and thanks to that Glidus guy on youtube now everytime Aemond one-eye pops on the screen i expect him to start speaking japanese, by the fucking gods)
This was so well done! Thank you for the context. Great job!
I understand not wanting to do TH-cam but you really are fantastic at it.
Love the LONG videos. Keep 'em coming!
Just made my day seeing a Joe Magician post!!
So thrilled to see a new video from u.
Thank u for what u do.
Very interesting and well-detailed video. great job
Oh Joe, I've missed you so keen for new content ❤
Its good to see a video from you after so long!
This is amazing. It's so good I doubt even GRRM thought of wall this layers
I’m not normally one for these long lore videos but this was fantastic and I’m surprised I ended up watching the whole thing.
I find fascinating the idea of Rhaenys going you Storms End though and her interaction with Aemond. Do you think Aemond would’ve still threatened her (not like Lucerys obviously but still at all)?
He may have tried, however it's likely the same as when he tried to step up to Daemon in the previous episode and backed down after seeing Daemon wasn't afraid of him. Rhaenys would be the same, and likely use her political skill and quick wit to make him look foolish for even trying. And Rhaenys obviously wouldn't be afraid of him either. Plus there's no real animosity between the two of them at this point like there is with Luke in particular. I'd be surprised if they had ever spoken to each other one on one. Would've most likely been a much more tame encounter, with Rhaenys either able to defuse or avoid that situation with Aemond and Borros.
Dang, only caught the last couple minutes of the premiere. So happy to see you back!
It is great to see you back!
Been looking out for your new vid for a few months. Glad to have some good new content from the magician
More to come!
@@JoeMagician awesome. Glad to have you back
WE NEED A FAMILY TREE FOR THE DRAGONS!!!
I am so glad to see you back making videos
So glad you're back!
Please keep uploading!! You've been missed
I was just watching his blood raven video so happy for new content!
A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one!
Sending Luke to Storm's end was a terrible mistake. Why send a child with no bargaining skills to a man like Borros? They should've sent Rhaenys instead, since she is part Baratheon and definitely has a sharper tongue.
Rhaenys is a queen, she would never go
I agree they deffinitely should have sent Rhaenys it would have mad much more sense. It was quick trip too so Rhaenys would have been back quickly to Dragon stone in case of an attack. She has far more political skills and experience than Lucarys. If I were lucarys I would have gotten right back on my dragon and turned around back to Dargon Stone the moment I saw Vaegar specially know who rides Vaegar and that he took his eye yeah um turn around abort mission!
@@I.AM.JUPITERShe's the Queen that Never Was, certainly returning to her mother's family home is far from infeasible for her
Yes! A Joe Magician video on my birthday! Great video, man.
Finally you're back!
Poor Luc. Such a loyal, brave, strong boy.
Rhaenyra had every opportunity to prepare herself for the throne. She had known for years that she was the heir but failed to get her priorities in order. Jumping from one guy to the next, she put her own desires first to the point of being forced to marry Laenor in the end who wasn't interested in having sex with her leading to her bastards and disgrace among the realm. Then at the last minute, when the greens are about to take the throne, she decides to step up to the challenge. Too little, too late. She was still a likeable character and it's easy to sympathize with her but she made some bad decisions.
I think you’re misinterpreting how the Baratheons must feel about their legacy. It might be the case that a few of them do see themselves denied their heritage as descendants of dragon lords but I don’t think they see themselves as usurpers to the legacy of the Storm lords. They didn’t take the legacy of the Durrandons, they wed into* it. They are in all aspects a continuation and inheritor of the Durrandon legacy, Orys ensured that was the case as I’m sure Argella did. Sure during the younger days of their dynasty some probably saw themselves as also inheritors of the blood of the dragon, but their inheritance of the Durrandons legacy should not be seen as an adoption or usurpation, they ARE for all effects and purposes the Durrandons. I truly don’t think the Baratheons are so enthralled with their legacy as a bastard line of the dragon as has been presented. Sure some of them were grasping, and they were uniquely aware of their relation to the Targaryens, but they often were also very amicable and supporting of the Targaryens. They’re just mercurial by nature, George writes the houses with certain traits and the blood of Durrans Godsgrief is always characterized as wrathful and arrogant. It just seems to be a jump to claim a lot of that characterization has been some resentment from being founded by a bastard, surely Catelyn Stark would think so, but I think that misses the point of their familial nature of being ‘storms’.
I would say this early on with Aegon and Orys in living memory that feeling and denial of being Valyrians is far more pronounced than it would be later. I wouldn't underestimate how much the denial of identity and personal truth can linger like a poison in the soul, it's a very pronounced theme in the books from Jon to Tyrion to Samwell and etc. Jaehaerys commented that it was an open secret within their two families that they are kin. It just wasn't spoken about because of the obvious problems and resentments that created. Rogar, Borros' grandfather, especially didn't see himself as less than his cousins more as an equal and tried to acquire dragon riders by marrying Dowager Queen Alyssa Velaryon hoping for dragon lord children as well as the political benefits at court. By the time we get to the main series I agree the feelings of annoyance at coming from a bastard founder is greatly diminished and they pretty much have entirely embraced their Durrandon roots as their identity. I doubt Robert ever thought of himself as Valyrian. However, that core animosity never really went away, less being about bastards and more the idea that they are lesser than the Targaryens when the Baratheons know they are far closer to equals. .
Great to see you back ❤
Joe’s back baybee let’s goooo can’t wait for season 2
This is well explained, thanks for this video
Glad it was helpful!
Was excited all day to watch this! Welcome back 🎉
They should have sent Rheanys she is kin and even Aemond would hesitate to kill her. Sending Luke was a mistake his birth is in question and he has no standing reputation and he really brings nothing to the table, the stags have always been impressed by strength and Luke scrabbling way from Aemond really sends a bad message. Rheanys could have reminded him about their blood connections and would not have flinched from Aemond either. Not sure even that would have swung the bratheons over the blacks since Rhaenyra really screwed herself politically, she was rude and dismissive when she was in their halls. and I dont think she has since came to visit or tried to get their loyalty
Joe is back!!!!!!! Yayyy! This was a great video. I talk within the community about how house Baratheon is a Vader house of house Targaryen like house blackfyre and for the most part house Velaryon.
Great insight and analysis. 👍🏾
Great video! Been itching for some HotD videos :)
Glad you’re alive bro
Not now babe. Joe magician is back.
Dear Mr. Joe Magician, please, pretty please don’t get burned out and give us your absolutely stellar interpretations. Looking forward to this season and to your views on the signs and foreshadowing they love to hide all over the place.
Welcome back, bud.
I've been checking for a post from your channel and I was glad to see one today.
There were plenty of tragedies but nobody makes a video about Mycah the butcher's son and that's all ill say about that
😂😂😂😂😂
Joe is back yay 😃
20:43 And he muddies the succession with having more kids with Alicent.
Did George actually put a name to who Otto Hightower had a child with? I don't remember if he did or not.
I've heard a theory that he had Alicent with one of the wild child daughters of the Old King (who then given gold and a ship to Essos). If true, it makes it an even deeper Family civil war. If true, the Mother of Alicent and the Grandmother of Rhenera (sorry for the spelling) were sisters and rivals that passed that onto their heirs.
No we don't know who his wife was. George often doesn't give the names of people in family trees if they don't show up on the page at all.
@@JoeMagician I didn't think so, thank you for enlightening me
Again the breaking of guest right screws things up for the realm
So excited about this.
yea I never got Cats problem Rickon and Brandon was assumed dead and if Robb died whiteout true born children who else would take winterfell? Jon would have been the only male whit Stark blood left, he would have been automatically a stark, bastards are often legitimized if there are no true borns left. it makes sense.
Robb: "If i die without kids then Jon Snow is my heir"
Cat: "But then he would be a threat to your kids!!"
Lady did you not hear the first part of that sentence 🤨
Excellent return
Thank you kindly
@@JoeMagician excellent deep dive
Welcome back Ser Joe of House Magician 😀
Good to see you back!
good to have you back
Whoa, you're finally back
I literally tweeted out RUN LUKE RUN ala Obi Wan to Luke in Star Wars when I saw the dread chonk (my favorite nickname for granny Vhagar). He should have noped out of there and that’s the real tragedy. If he had been a few years older he would have had the maturity to realize OH NO This will not end well and just promptly leave in order to tell Mommy that the greens beat him to the Baratheons. But he was an eager to please 14 year old who wanted to prove himself to the mother he so admired and well…dead
Thank you for that video I needed that! GOT for life lol….
This is crazy to learn I never knew and now it makes it feel ironic and makes sense that later a Baratheon wipes out all targeryans and takes the throne, crazeeee
Happy you’re back!!
Imagine a candidate running on a "you all Promised to vote for me 20 years ago" platform 🙄
Missed you joe!!!!
I love Joe magician sm
Really enjoyed this one 👍👍
Yay, I’m so happy you’re back🎉🎉🎉
HE'S BACK
I’m glad your back 🎉👍🏻
Amasaszing, i think I’m going to watch it again.. and probably again tomorrow… weeeeee!!!!!
I swear I typed amazing with all a’s, my autocorrect always changes aa to as 😢
Yes I did enjoy this banger of a video thank you
Awesome video
35:19 Whoa whoa whoa, she said that after Rogar helped kill her mom and did so to protect any other prospective wives who may be abused during childbirth. She did not care for them at all
Borros: "This is bullshit! We're part Targaryen! Why aren't we getting equal treament?!"
Fast forward to soon to be king Bobby B: *LAUGHS IN WARHAMMER*